Latest / Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News / First responders, mandates, and the fight for accountability with Lt. Matt Connor

Transcript

First responders, mandates, and the fight for accountability with Lt. Matt Connor · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:06
  Welcome to the tow.
• 0:09
  Take a deep breath.
• 0:11
  Take the higher road.
• 0:13
  It's what they always say.
• 0:16
  They won't take it from me.
• 0:20
  Don't have a dungeon self-swiping juice and dream.
• 0:24
  You made your own so cake and scream.
• 0:27
  The people who laugh with a never ending force.
• 0:31
  You never have the chance.
• 0:33
  So watch a win for my friend consists.
• 0:44
  It's time.
• 0:54
  Let's just say it.
• 0:55
  What happened during COVID, especially when it came to mandates was not as simple as safe and effective and do your part.
• 1:03
  For a lot of people, it felt like pressure.
• 1:06
  It felt like fear.
• 1:07
  And for many, it felt like coercion.
• 1:10
  And I don't use that word lightly.
• 1:12
  Because when someone is told, do this or lose your job.
• 1:16
  Do this, or you can't provide for your family.
• 1:20
  Do this, or you're out.
• 1:22
  That's not a free informed medical decision.
• 1:25
  That's a forced one.
• 1:26
  And as nurses, as healthcare professionals, we need to be honest about that.
• 1:31
  Because informed consent isn't just a checkbox on a forum.
• 1:34
  It requires full transparency, the ability to ask questions and the freedom to say no without punishment.
• 1:41
  And what we saw, especially among first responders, healthcare workers, and public servants was a system that in many cases did not allow for that.
• 1:51
  Now fast forward.
• 1:52
  The mandates are no longer front page news.
• 1:55
  The urgency is gone and the messaging has quieted down.
• 1:58
  But the consequences, they're still here.
• 2:01
  People who lost their careers, people who are pushed out of the professions that they loved.
• 2:07
  People who experienced adverse events and feel like no one is listening.
• 2:12
  But there are still individuals and organizations out here every day on the front lines of this battle.
• 2:17
  Because this didn't end when the mandates ended.
• 2:20
  In many ways, this is where the real fight begins.
• 2:24
  You're listening to the nurses report on America Out Loud Talk Radio.
• 2:28
  I'm your host, Nurse Kimberly Overton.
• 2:30
  Before we get started today, I do want to encourage our listeners.
• 2:33
  If you have questions or comments, or perhaps you want to share your own experiences with what you're seeing on the front lines of healthcare, you can now submit those to us directly by emailing us at nurses at America Outloud.news.
• 2:45
  We would love to hear from you.
• 2:47
  We encourage all of you to engage in the battle and find your voice in this fight.
• 2:51
  But until you're able to do that, we will continue to be that voice for you.
• 2:56
  My guest today is someone who brings both lived experience and leadership to this conversation.
• 3:02
  Matt Connor is a New York City firefighter, appointed to the FDNY in 2005 and promoted to lieutenant in 2020.
• 3:09
  So this is someone who didn't just observe what was happening during COVID.
• 3:14
  He lived it inside of one of the largest and most structured public service systems in the country.
• 3:20
  Matt earned his degree in human services, education and public policy from the University of Delaware and was nearly finished with his graduate studies at the City University of New York when everything came to a halt.
• 3:31
  In 2021, the key to NYC vaccine mandate disrupted not only his career, but his education and trajectory forward.
• 3:39
  After refusing to comply, Matt was placed on an involuntary, unpaid leave.
• 3:44
  And like many others in similar positions, he was forced to navigate the consequences of that decision in real time.
• 3:51
  But what sets Matt apart is what he chose to do next.
• 3:55
  Instead of stepping away quietly, he stepped into advocacy.
• 3:59
  Matt became a lead organizer with Bravest for Choice, helping to bring structure and strategy to a growing movement of first responders and public servants seeking accountability and recognition.
• 4:11
  He served on the legal team behind Garland v FDNY, a federal case asserting due process rights, as well as New Yorkers for religious liberty, the city of New York, which gained national attention and support from Alliance Defending Freedom as co-counsel.
• 4:25
  Matt also served as a trustee for the National Coalition of Frontline Workers, an organization that aims to give a collective voice to frontline workers spanning multiple disciplines.
• 4:35
  Today he continues to represent Bravest for Choice, working to ensure that these conversations are not only heard, but taken seriously.
• 4:43
  Matt, welcome.
• 4:45
  Kimberly, thank you very much for having me.
• 4:47
  I really appreciate the opportunity to look back on some of this work and uh and also look forward to uh the work ahead.
• 4:54
  Absolutely.
• 4:54
  And I will say that this show is at least three and a half years in the making.
• 4:58
  I have been trying to get you on the show forever.
• 5:01
  And finally, the ever elusive Matt Connor on my show.
• 5:05
  Very happy to have you here.
• 5:07
  Uh I really appreciate the uh the original invitation, which uh which so many things in the past few years feel feel like a blur and unfortunately uh a rain check turned into uh a sort of a uh you know it's been too long and uh but it's okay because you're here now, and that's all that matters.
• 5:28
  And you know, some of my listeners have heard your name before.
• 5:30
  We've given you multiple shout-outs on this show.
• 5:33
  Heard a few of them and appreciate them.
• 5:35
  Yeah, especially whenever I have Krista on.
• 5:37
  We always we always credit you for uh introducing us.
• 5:39
  So this is the best, and she's been such an asset.
• 5:43
  Um, everything we've been doing in New York, and um it's just you know, I think we all kind of share the sentiment that we've met such amazing people along this journey as difficult as it has been and continues to be.
• 5:55
  Yeah, and um, people like yourself and Krista are certainly um in high regard uh in my view, and and people that everyone that's come in contact with you and the work you're doing as well.
• 6:05
  So it's um it's appreciated, and and the the time lapse is not uh any indication of uh you know how much we appreciate you.
• 6:12
  It's it's more just we've been really, really busy.
• 6:15
  Absolutely.
• 6:16
  There's been a lot to do.
• 6:17
  There's been a lot of work that's that's been taking place behind the scenes, and I think a lot of people, once the the kind of headlines start to fade, people don't realize that we're still here behind the scenes and we're working, especially for to prevent this from ever happening again.
• 6:31
  But we're still trying to get people back to work, and we'll get into that in a little bit.
• 6:35
  Right.
• 6:35
  And that and that workload only intensifies as people kind of um you know move on without that resolution.
• 6:43
  You know, it becomes uh more and more work for the people that are continuing to really hold the line on this uh from the beginning.
• 6:51
  Absolutely.
• 6:52
  You know, we in the beginning we had a lot of people um that were standing up, still not nearly enough, but then as you know, things stop affecting people personally, you start to see them backing away a little bit, and then there's you know, the the few of us that are still out here holding the line, and it's it's really important to um support the people that are out here.
• 7:10
  But but Matt, I really want you to take us back to that moment in in 2021 when the mandate was announced.
• 7:16
  What did that feel like from from inside the FDNY?
• 7:23
  So the mandate before it was announced was sort of anticipated.
• 7:28
  Um, and there was a lot of like looming anxiety and like worry over whether or not this was was gonna happen.
• 7:36
  And many people thought very strongly that it would happen.
• 7:40
  And uh their concerns are sort of brushed aside by people that were in many cases in positions of uh responsibility for addressing those uh kinds of issues, you know, people like like labor union leaders, yeah.
• 7:54
  And uh these concerns were like largely dismissed and to the detriment of um our ability to respond to it properly in unity.
• 8:03
  And and so when the the mandate was actually announced, there was already a very uh divisive sort of sentiment because many people that were very concerned about this uh saw it coming, and we felt like we were getting caught flat footed by the people that were supposed to be out there protecting us from our rights, and um it was a it turned into an absolute explosion.
• 8:26
  I call I I sort of describe it as an explosion of dissent in New York City.
• 8:30
  Um, something that I've personally never seen uh in my life.
• 8:35
  Um something that that was that you know that well, I'll get give an example.
• 8:42
  So like the largest labor demonstration that I had seen in person in New York City before that was there was a transit workers strike.
• 8:48
  Um I want to say, you know, like uh I forget the year, maybe it was 2002 or 2003.
• 8:55
  And it was um, you know, the very contested public issue, public worker issue.
• 9:01
  And um very passionate uh Moonal labor leaders behind that and everything else.
• 9:06
  But um, that was the closest thing I had seen in the recent years, and also as a child, uh my my father was a uh third generation newspaper uh newspaperman, and he uh worked for the Daily News in New York, and there was a labor strike that um at the Daily News that was a very, very public display of uh, you know, a labor struggle.
• 9:27
  So I it's something I had seen growing up, but now all of a sudden we were being thrust into this space.
• 9:34
  Um, you know, whether we liked it or not, and trying to figure out a way forward.
• 9:38
  And when I say it's an explosion of dissent, I mean that it was something that was not just not just firefighters, not just nurses, not just teachers.
• 9:46
  It was uh very widely felt across the working class in New York City.
• 9:52
  Yeah.
• 9:53
  And the response uh with from within the fire department was sort of a rogue response in the sense that.
• 10:01
  Because there was no organized um opposition from our labor unions, uh people felt so passionate about this uh this policy that they decided to do something on their own.
• 10:13
  And that we just witnessed that grow exponentially uh grassroots, and it turned into a large the one of the largest labor demonstrations in New York City history.
• 10:24
  Um directly following the uh the announcement of the mandate uh group of firefighters uh launched a uh a march on City Hall with a muster point of the FDNY headquarters in front of the building, and then marched over the Brooklyn Bridge um to the gates of City Hall to say no to the vaccine mandate, so-called vaccine mandate.
• 10:47
  And just word of mouth and with the advantage of technology these days, the way things are able to be organized.
• 10:54
  That march turned into a march of approximately 20,000 New Yorkers.
• 10:58
  Um it's something that most perhaps most of your audience is not even familiar with because it was so buried it by the media.
• 11:07
  Um, but it was like I said, I I did a little research, and it was actually one of the largest labor demonstrations in the city's history.
• 11:14
  So for the you know, in this day and age for uh crowd of that size to be assembled and to be ignored by corporate mass media was a real wake-up call into uh you know how hard this fight was gonna be.
• 11:27
  And yeah, but by this point in 2021, you had already you know built your career, you were uh promoted to lieutenant and finishing graduate school at this point.
• 11:39
  Was there ever a point, Matt, where you considered taking the vaccine?
• 11:44
  There was never a point um that I considered actually taking the the shot.
• 11:49
  Um I think see cut to the chase.
• 11:52
  The the big question in for many people was were they gonna bend a knee to the whole thing and pretend they took the shot.
• 11:59
  Yes.
• 12:00
  And I think we saw that not just in the fire department in New York City.
• 12:05
  I think we saw that across the country.
• 12:08
  We did.
• 12:08
  And you know, I viewed the way I it was it was a little bit turmoil because like you said, I had already established my career and um was trying to, you know, really work to develop my career further.
• 12:21
  It was like a real um, it was bad timing, put it that way.
• 12:25
  Yes, to pick a fight with uh one of the largest municipal governments in the in uh in the country, and um, you know, global uh you know, global uh corporations uh headquartered in New York City and all and all that.
• 12:41
  But nonetheless, uh it was a fight that you know it was my line in the sand.
• 12:45
  And I I, you know, as tempting, and it wasn't really tempting, it was it was coercion.
• 12:50
  The people that that that chose that route, I believe that they you know, they they had to make a dis they were forced to make a decision, a medical decision, uh that they didn't want, right?
• 13:01
  It's not I don't think it's as uh an elevated decision as the decision many other people chose, which was to, you know, say that this is unconstitutional, this is immoral, this is not medically ethical, uh, etc.
• 13:15
  etc.
• 13:15
  And say, I'm not gonna do it.
• 13:17
  I think that's that's the moral high ground.
• 13:18
  And that was really the side of uh this that I wanted to be on.
• 13:22
  And um, and then there were some areas for example, um, with in the in the areas of the exemption processes that were that were acknowledged by even the organizations that employed these mandates, there was always an acknowledgement.
• 13:36
  Well, in most cases that there was um potentially there would be honoring these sorts of exemption requests.
• 13:42
  So uh I reluctantly engaged in that process.
• 13:45
  Um, and I say reluctantly because I really felt that you know, just being presented with a a medical mandate and having my own personal concerns, um, so some of them sincerely held religious belief, some of them um medical ethic ethical um issues, some of them um just having to do with the safety of the product and my as it turns out to be very prudent intuition and and preliminary research that these were very unsafe products.
• 14:14
  Um I did not want to be harmed by them.
• 14:16
  So I I chose not to consent to them on the on those types of mixed grounds.
• 14:22
  Um, but there was only very limited windows into which you could challenge those through the exemption processes.
• 14:28
  So when I say reluctantly engaged in them, I I really felt that you know, people should have been able to demand informed consent and refuse consent.
• 14:38
  Um and that would have um had that been those principles been honored, which is obviously ties very much into the work you're doing.
• 14:45
  Uh, had those principles been honored, there would have been no need for um all this uh surrounding turmoil over how the exemption processes were were processed, how they were um evaluated or or dealt with administratively.
• 15:00
  Um people could have just simply refused the intervention.
• 15:04
  And that's the what I think should have happened.
• 15:06
  Uh I'm not a fan of exemptions overall because I really feel like the more we are asking these people for permission, uh, the more that they they think that they have some type of authority over us that they do not.
• 15:19
  Um so I really I dislike the whole the whole idea of exemptions, period.
• 15:24
  Yeah, in the sense you're consenting to their authority to impose the mandate inherently.
• 15:29
  Exactly.
• 15:29
  Right.
• 15:29
  Exactly.
• 15:31
  I I don't agree with that at all.
• 15:34
  And I I pass no judgment on people who chose that route, as well as I don't pass judgment on people who chose to, you know, maybe do the fake vaccine cards.
• 15:41
  I I could have gone that route as well, but I just as you said it was a line in the sand for me.
• 15:45
  I thought, you know, even feigned compliance is a uh just it's a bridge too far for me.
• 15:51
  Well, people, I mean, just to I mean, these are like large issues that I know this didn't happen just in your like a little window into like what that felt like as one human being trying to make this decision in the midst of your you know your own responsibilities to your family and your your uh your aspirations in your career.
• 16:08
  Basically, we were told we had a nine-day window to make a decision, and if you did not apply for an exemption of some kind, you were given three days uh you would put up place on leave without pay after the nine-day window, and then after three um, I forget if it was three days or seven days now because they kept changing the number the magical numbers, but the um you basically be uh you're threatened with termination if you were weren't coming into compliance after that period had passed.
• 16:35
  So basically overnight, relatively overnight, your career would be over with no warning uh up until this um this arbitrary mandate.
• 16:44
  And uh people, I think it put people in a very desperate position, and people made some desperate moves.
• 16:52
  Um, like I said, I I knew right away uh I didn't I wasn't gonna you know there was no there was no point at which I was gonna take these uh these products.
• 17:00
  Um then the question became how do you navigate that decision?
• 17:04
  And and uh you know, there were a lot of people that were talking, you know.
• 17:08
  So in New York, everybody's got a guy, you know.
• 17:10
  I got a guy.
• 17:11
  I got a guy, exactly.
• 17:13
  Yeah, well, exactly.
• 17:14
  There's a lot of that going on, I'll say that.
• 17:16
  Yeah.
• 17:17
  And I didn't, I don't, you know, it was it wasn't a route that was not uh out there, it's just I wanted no part of that either.
• 17:23
  Yeah.
• 17:24
  Um and I don't fault people for making that choice, um, but I don't elevate that position either.
• 17:30
  Like there was, you know, like main national news.
• 17:32
  Um there was a physician who was being basically attacked by the Department of Justice.
• 17:37
  Um, Dr.
• 17:38
  Moore.
• 17:38
  Yeah.
• 17:40
  I don't know that I don't know, Dr.
• 17:41
  Moore.
• 17:41
  I've you know followed the story from afar.
• 17:43
  Yeah.
• 17:44
  Um I don't, you know, I'm glad he's not being prosecuted, but I was a little like almost in a sense like alarmed, like you tell me what you think about this.
• 17:54
  But you know, he I say this.
• 18:00
  Um it's still it's it's a lesser position to uh then it's not it's not that it's uh wasn't important for the people.
• 18:08
  I'm sure the people that sought treatment from him were very grateful for his actual respect of their own medical um wishes and autonomy.
• 18:16
  Um and it probably felt like a life react to a lot of people, but it doesn't solve the problem, is the point I'm trying to make.
• 18:23
  And it's not a knock on him or what he what he chose to do, and it's also not a knock on my colleagues who made other choices to you know identify as vaccinated and stay employed.
• 18:32
  Right to see their families.
• 18:34
  But I think I think you and I are on the same page, and and I agree with you with everything that you just said, and I I don't know Dr.
• 18:39
  Moore either.
• 18:40
  We have discussed this on this show, actually.
• 18:42
  Um, the nurses were all kind of divided about this topic with some of the nurses thinking, oh, he was a hero, and some of the nurses thinking, oh no.
• 18:50
  I mean, if we're talking about ethical decision making, then we we have to say that that wasn't an ethical decision that's still falsifying uh you know, medical documentation and all of that.
• 19:01
  You could flip that around and say, well, but he probably saved lives and he saved careers, and and that's all true.
• 19:06
  And then we can sit here and say, you know, this isn't your average everyday, you know, we we're at war in a sense.
• 19:13
  So, you know, the same rules don't always apply.
• 19:16
  Um I'm kind of in the same position you are, and my thoughts about that.
• 19:21
  Yeah, I think I mean I try sometimes you think about it and you think about like what would it have been like to have been in um you know in the Confederate South during um you know before the Civil War and like you know, harboring slaves on the Underground Railroad getting them to freedom, it's like it I don't want to be dramatic about this, but there's um you know, there's people that took up arms and and fought these things, and there's people that you know clandestinely, you know, facilitated freedom in other ways, and I don't think it's it's an us first them type of thing.
• 19:55
  They're not the same thing, but they're in the service of freedom in different ways.
• 20:00
  Um, but I think that when you when you're coming at it, the issues from a point of somebody who's trying to engage in activism to end the policy, um, those kinds of discussions become more divisive and more important because it's a you mentioned strategy earlier.
• 20:17
  So you know, people that have been engaged in fighting the mandates, defeating the mandates, there's been you know, some diversity in sort of how that was approached in terms of strategy.
• 20:28
  And uh I think it's it's not like it's important to uh celebrate wins, but also kind of look at how you know how the wins came about and and had different things happened in terms of strategy, maybe some of those fights wouldn't have been necessary.
• 20:48
  Right.
• 20:49
  Well, it's always important to kind of go back and uh revisit our actions, what we did, like the same thing after like a code in the hospital, we we go back and we look at like what could we have done differently, or you know, those types of scenarios, right?
• 21:03
  Um you you always want to stay on top of uh those strategies and how can we you know do better and improve moving forward.
• 21:10
  But you know, ultimately, and you you made the brave choice to not comply with these mandates when that happened, you were placed on administrative unpaid leave.
• 21:20
  Uh was it 10 months?
• 21:22
  I thought I was out almost I was out nearly a year almost.
• 21:26
  Um and when people say that I I phrase it that way because so there were some people that were strict were flat out terminate, yeah.
• 21:35
  Um because I like I said, reluctantly chose to explore um you know the exemption routes, and I say reluctantly, we there was it an arbitrary deadline that I I deliberately uh ignored and submit on my paperwork after that deadline because it was seen as um an attempt to further divide and conquer the dissent.
• 22:00
  So submitting it on time, so to speak, was just basically kept the people that were opposing the policy at work while other people were being persecuted.
• 22:08
  Right.
• 22:09
  That's that was the reason I I didn't submit the paperwork um on their deadline.
• 22:14
  Um but that put me in a position where you were basically sus you're effectively suspended from work, um, but even though they claimed it was non-disciplinary, and uh under that suspension, you were co threatened with termination and continually coerced to take the shots.
• 22:29
  So it wasn't just like uh you know, I put in for a leave uh, you know, like as if I was asking for it.
• 22:36
  So it's involuntary is kind of an understatement.
• 22:39
  You know, we were suspended essentially, threatened with termination, and uh aggressively campaigned with propaganda to coerce us to take these products.
• 22:49
  Yeah, and I we we faced the you know similar.
• 22:52
  Um I was I was holding off on uh getting the shot.
• 22:55
  I kept saying no, and that we were just all the propaganda and all of the you know, do your part and all of that that was really really coming down from corporate trying to get us to agree to uh take these shots.
• 23:07
  And I know you know, ultimately I ended up resigning from my position uh after I after I had been exempted from the mandate, I ended up um resigning for just you know moral and ethical reasons.
• 23:18
  I just could not continue.
• 23:20
  And I you made that choice as well, you know.
• 23:22
  I'm I'm just a nurse, so I do was not definitely in a financial position to be able to to do any of that, but um but I did it.
• 23:32
  You know, known for being ready.
• 23:35
  I'm sure you heard the same things.
• 23:36
  Uh every time I rent somebody after that, you know, after it was already months have gone by and I'd really solidified and dug into my position.
• 23:42
  Um more so when people realize how dug in I was, you know, you get the um after almost a year, I was finally fast forward a little bit, but I was at some point finally able to return to work after a lot of uh difficult work and uh legal work and organizing work.
• 23:59
  They my point is when we finally some of us finally get back to work.
• 24:04
  One of the first things that people would say to me when they would run into me, I wish I could have done what you did.
• 24:08
  I couldn't afford it.
• 24:11
  Yeah, like we could like oh they're like, we have bills to pay in a mortgage.
• 24:15
  I I wish I could have done what you did.
• 24:17
  And I'm like, I have bills to pay in a mortgage too.
• 24:20
  They there which which is um the only reason I'm bringing that up is not to elevate our choices, but although I you know, I do I am in some sense, like I don't know if proud is the right word, but uh Proud is the right word.
• 24:32
  You should be proud of what you did.
• 24:33
  Well I don't know, it's it was the right thing to do.
• 24:37
  It was the right thing to do, and I'm glad I didn't do something different.
• 24:40
  Yes.
• 24:41
  So um, but you know, looking back on it, um it the gravity, I think you were trying to get to the gravity of the decision in the moment.
• 24:49
  Yeah, um, and that kind of speaks to that.
• 24:51
  I mean, it we we didn't do this because it was convenient, or I was trying to, you know, I was looking forward to being some sort of martyr for this cause.
• 25:00
  Right.
• 25:01
  I um I just wanted to get back on a fire truck and go to work and do my job.
• 25:04
  That's that's and be left alone.
• 25:07
  And so did everyone else that that made other choices um that have you know that had initially uh, you know, they didn't that didn't want to consent to those things.
• 25:16
  So whether they whatever choice they made, they were forced to do something they didn't want to do.
• 25:20
  That's that's the point I always try to make.
• 25:22
  You know, and I think the there's also been a lot of there's been a lot of debate about people using the word coercion.
• 25:29
  Um I absolutely think it was that people were coerced, but from your perspective, you know, yes, people did have a choice because you and I chose not to do it.
• 25:39
  So there's that.
• 25:41
  People gotta realize like, you know, like there's that expression, um, that Viking expression, burn the boats.
• 25:46
  Like there's a there's a few people in in um there's a lot of people, but I think we're there's an example of like some subset of people in these professions that said, you know what, I don't care what happens, I'm just not doing it.
• 26:01
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  And it was like, and I don't think people were naive about the the cost involved, like that it wasn't readily calculable.
• 26:10
  It's gonna be in a lot of economic damage for sure.
• 26:14
  And I think what maybe we didn't anticipate was like just how this was gonna end up like taking over like a big chunk of your life to um to dig in and fight this thing.
• 26:24
  And um, you know, looking back on it almost five years later, it's kind of crazy to me that like this this is like consumed my life for the last five years in a lot of ways, especially the first couple years.
• 26:36
  Yeah, it started to slow down a little bit, but um, you know, on my end anyway, I feel like it's it's slowed down in some ways, but in others, it's just like we're it's it's you know, we we see things on social media and we see things in the news if you were if you still watch that garbage, uh that that suggest that you know something like this could be coming down the pike again.
• 27:00
  I think the first time 2020 was probably a dress rehearsal for what's to come.
• 27:05
  I think we failed miserably.
• 27:06
  I think it was a test of our compliance, and I think overall as a society, we we failed miserably at this with the masking with the social distancing, with the you know, allowing them to come in and shut us down.
• 27:18
  Um, you know, we we failed.
• 27:20
  That's why and and a lot of people were blind.
• 27:24
  So like this is where I get frustrated.
• 27:26
  Not so much that how poorly uh I mean, I am I am up to you know, I'm frustrated to an extent that we perform so poorly as a society, but um, but also I think people have become so disengaged with their own civic uh engagement that it's not all that surprising.
• 27:42
  And maybe like people have become so disengaged with like the ideals that that founded this country were like they're no longer practicing those ideals, they're just they're just sort of like ideas that are written about or almost like folklore, more so than like things that they really hold true to themselves and and engage with.
• 28:02
  And I think that's part of the problem.
• 28:04
  But you know, that's that said, what what really frustrates me now is that after this has all happened, like after all the the facts that were considered sort of fringe in the beginning, yeah, they've really established the facts are established.
• 28:20
  Like these the shots were dangerous, informed consent was violated, uh, you know, the the products were experimental, um, the products that could have been repurposed and and had better outcomes were suppressed in the service of that emergency use author authorization and and that illegal experimentation.
• 28:40
  Um, this goes on and on.
• 28:42
  But the point is that this could happen again, and the failure of people now to really reflect on this insane period of time uh and really come up with um you know, have these conversations that like they are happening as you you know, we're we're kind of in the we're in the you know, in that bubble of people that are really thinking hard about this kind of stuff.
• 29:06
  But the fact that I don't feel like those conversations are happening enough and as widely and is and are being reflected in in sort of like the mainstream.
• 29:16
  I think that that worries me a lot because I think we're at the point now where a lot there's so much just glaring evidence of uh the concern should have been heated.
• 29:28
  Um and the principles were clear clearly violated that you know, people have you know, whatever pick your pick your field, medical ethics or yeah, or um religious freedom or whatever, whatever your uh biggest um issue with these shots are the mandates where there's a lot to talk about, and there's a lot to reflect on, and I don't see that happening like in a broad sense that I would have ex I really it kind of shocks me that we're not having those large conversations, uh agreed.
• 29:59
  You know, if we're like
• 30:00
  It's like they don't want to talk about it.
• 30:01
  They want to move on, you know.
• 30:03
  Right.
• 30:03
  I think there's a lot of that.
• 30:04
  The people felt like they was like um, you know, they got pushed around a little bit, but they made a decision and now they don't want to talk about it anymore.
• 30:13
  Yeah.
• 30:14
  Well, we're we're up against a hard break here, but when we come back, we're gonna talk about some of those those real life consequences uh from the shot and and how some of our first responders uh are still dealing with those consequences.
• 30:27
  Absolutely.
• 30:28
  Nice.
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• 34:34
  If you're just joining us, I've been talking with FTNY firefighter, advocate, warrior for choice, and my friend Matt Connor.
• 34:43
  Let's jump right back in.
• 34:44
  Matt, thank you again for being here.
• 34:46
  I'm so excited to have you finally.
• 34:48
  Thanks a lot, Ken, but I really appreciate the uh the opportunity.
• 34:51
  And it's it's kind of uh maybe it's good that we uh that we waited a little while to digest some of this stuff because it it is a lot of heavy um, it is and it's it's important to like as you said, to kind of look back and do and do the reflection and look back and see what we did, what could we have done differently, what can we do moving forward because there's a lot of room here to uh to continue to make big changes and big waves in this space.
• 35:16
  Yeah, I think part of the part of my um just so there at certain points I've taken some time to reflect a bit.
• 35:23
  Um, but so much of the time since 2021 has been engaged in actively fighting the policy.
• 35:30
  You know, we're still actively engaged in trying to reverse the policy and in effect um for certain individuals that were impacted.
• 35:38
  And uh, and that's really taken it's been a you know, it's it's just been an ongoing um strategic uh initiative that just has morphed into different efforts, and we don't we haven't given up on these on these people that want to go back to work.
• 35:54
  Right.
• 35:54
  Um so it's not really uh it hasn't really been a past tense thing for us.
• 35:58
  Um there's an expression that I hear people say now, um, oh, back during COVID, and it's like during COVID, like it's we're sometimes I forget how in COVID I am compared to Joe Schmul walking down the block, you know, because people really a lot of people have chosen to move on, and they're not uh thinking about this in this way that it's still an ongoing thing.
• 36:23
  So I don't know if you if you wanted to just so I mean to be just to let your audience know, you know, we still have firefighters that in New York City that refused the refuse the shots, um, were terminated for that decision.
• 36:37
  So they were, you know, they lost their employment completely.
• 36:41
  In many cases, uh, or in some cases, uh, you know, they lost everything.
• 36:45
  They lost their the pension they hit they had invested in this with many years of service, they lost their paycheck, obviously, their medical benefits, et cetera.
• 36:53
  The list goes on and on.
• 36:54
  And so one one of our primary, you know, we've basically formed as uh Bravest for Choice is all we demanded was the the you know the the ability to choose and consent or not consent to the product.
• 37:08
  That was that was the very, you know, we weren't we knew that people felt um very strongly about the issue on both sides uh in the beginning when we formed, and we knew that you know we weren't necessarily trying to convince other people of what decisions they should be making because they have the right to make those decisions.
• 37:25
  Um we were very uh, you know, it was a line in the sand, like you can't make people take these products.
• 37:32
  And so we we we stood up for that that choice in the workplace.
• 37:36
  And um, there are still people that made those choices to not to you know that decline the shots that are still out of work, and we've still been actively trying to find ways to reinstate them.
• 37:47
  So I don't know if you wanted to talk a little bit about the reinstatement front.
• 37:50
  Yeah, I do.
• 37:50
  I do want to talk about that.
• 37:52
  Um, because I know that there are still people, as you as you mentioned, that are uh, you know, completely out of work, and this has been I mean years, and we're talking about like losing these investments, but I I do want to talk about that, and then um also kind of the human impact of it.
• 38:06
  It's it's not only the financial aspect of it, but some people who are coerced into uh these shots, and we can we can talk about that in a minute.
• 38:16
  I do want you to kind of talk about the reinstatement process, and then we can talk about um, you know, some of some of the people who have been dealing with medical consequences absolutely, yeah.
• 38:26
  So we've had I I know back vaccine injury is uh something that you've been um very vocal about and uh engaged in and uh definitely um would like to so like people had these this choice to make, which is what you started out by framing this conversation with, right?
• 38:40
  So there was this like real time, real dis real time decision, and you were choosing a path.
• 38:45
  And um, so some some people chose the choke, you know, use the choice very loosely or coerce or or chose to um be fired.
• 38:55
  I I laugh because it it was not it's like a choice only a name, right?
• 38:59
  Yeah, I mean I completely agree that this was coercion 100%.
• 39:04
  Um, but some people uh spoke on that road and were fired.
• 39:07
  So I'll I'll just focus in on two individuals uh specifically, uh, or maybe three real quick, because um so um one person who's uh currently um she was not vaccine injured, she chose not to coerce, uh be coerced to take these shots, and she ended up getting terminated.
• 39:29
  She was a uh an EMT in the New York City Fire Department.
• 39:32
  Um she's spoken publicly about this before, so I'll mention her name Karen Rosado.
• 39:36
  She was one of the one of our um organizers with Bravest for Choice.
• 39:40
  And um, unfortunately, she you know, she was fired and was actively engaged in trying to um fight her way back to work.
• 39:47
  And uh without getting into her personal medical history, she came down with um an illness um after she was fired.
• 39:55
  So she lost then, you know, with being fired, she lost her health insurance um and had to deal.
• 40:00
  With not only the loss of our career and income, but also uh loss of any kind of um access to sort of traditional medical care on top of all that.
• 40:10
  So you know, that was just something I think is worth mentioning.
• 40:13
  Like even people that that didn't choose to or didn't take the shots and get hurt by these shots, they were lost their jobs, and that led to other potentially other health uh implications as well, right?
• 40:25
  So there's a there's definitely that's one aspect of what happened to people.
• 40:29
  And then um, as far as loss of income, um, we had a member, Sal Mida, who was this guy wants to get back on a fire truck tomorrow.
• 40:37
  And I can't wait.
• 40:39
  Um I really don't see the path for it right now because uh we've we've tried so many different things and we've really been hitting an administrative wall in New York City with the crazy politics to go on here.
• 40:50
  But um Sal is you know ready, willing and able to get back on a fire truck immediately, stood up and said he, you know, he's actually very has very sincere um religious beliefs that are um you know he probably would have had he chosen the dad to explore that route, maybe he would have been um qualified for uh religious exemption to the shots, but he just stood up on principle and said, I'm not, I don't I I'm just refusing the shot, I'm not taking it.
• 41:16
  Yeah, and uh to his credit.
• 41:19
  And um he's he's still being persecuted for that decision.
• 41:23
  There's no there's no pathway back for him to employment in New York City, even though there is no current currently there is no to be clear, no COVID-19 vax mandate in place anymore.
• 41:33
  But the people that were terminated over the policy when the policy was in effect are still being persecuted and prevented from returning to the workforce for no valid reason, it's it's totally insane.
• 41:43
  Um another another member, um, the bravest for choice, his name is Tim Heaton.
• 41:47
  He was uh a uh fire lieutenant.
• 41:51
  So in the New York City Fire Department, firefighters, you know, if you get promoted into a like a supervisory role, the first rank there is a lieutenant.
• 41:57
  That's um uh the role that uh I found myself in and Tim as well.
• 42:02
  And um, you're really you know, tasked with leadership.
• 42:05
  And Tim said uh, you know, I'm not taking this shot.
• 42:11
  And um, and his uh I don't know, have his his Twitter handle, his ex-handle completely memorized, but it's basically uh, you know, uh he didn't take the shots of the FDMY fired on that's that's the gist of his handle.
• 42:24
  And so he's got a good sense of humor about it.
• 42:26
  But it's he's been through a lot, and this guy's been through a lot, and he and he just wants to go back to work, and he's very he's also been maintained a very positive attitude, um, which is admirable given what the hand he's been dealt.
• 42:38
  And um, you know, Tim uh because he had so much time, he had served the city so long for more than 20 years, he was uh technically so he was fired, but because he had already completed his um the time that he would need to to serve the city to earn a pension with the city under uh his the contract when he was hired.
• 42:59
  He was he's technically retired.
• 43:01
  Now he's been like administratively they retired him because he was he was already he'd already fulfilled his commitment commitment, so to speak.
• 43:08
  Um but he was uh he was really fired.
• 43:12
  And we have uh other examples like that with um Chief Tom Lapola, who was a 37-year battalion chief, um was basically you know, his religious exemption was denied and was told either you know take the shot or uh were you fired.
• 43:24
  He ended up choosing a retirement pathway to preserve his uh his vast investment in in the city and the and uh leader leadership in the fire department.
• 43:34
  Um he's been uh you know, both both of those guys have just been great.
• 43:37
  There's these are guys that could have just walked away instead of having this very difficult fight because they had you know more than enough time to just leave.
• 43:43
  And instead they became leaders in our movement and and demonstrated that quality.
• 43:47
  And Sal was more like in a position like myself, we were shy of that retirement age.
• 43:52
  It's it, you know, work been working for a substantial amount of time, you know, about 15, 16 years when the mandate happened, so we were a little shy of that retirement age.
• 44:02
  Yeah, and uh our service time rather.
• 44:06
  And you know, so we were caught up in that that band of people that were really like people were telling you you're crazy, you're crazy.
• 44:14
  You can't you can't, you know, can't lose your pension.
• 44:17
  You could just you know, our own people were trying to talk since taking shots, talking about the origin, right?
• 44:22
  Right.
• 44:23
  And Sal, so Sal is still on the other side of that fence and still fighting to get back to work.
• 44:28
  And unfortunately, the crowd is sort of thinned rallying around him to bravest of choice has been with you know, advocating for him the whole way, and we're not going away, and there's no reason he shouldn't be able to be able to come back and finish his career.
• 44:41
  So we stand very strongly with them.
• 44:43
  Um but then you know, there's a flip side to this, right?
• 44:46
  There's people that didn't want to take these shots.
• 44:48
  There were people that waited to the absolute last minute, so in some cases the last day of the deadline, and then felt you know, a responsibility to you know, this is a very personal decision, but like you know, families to provide for, and people rolled the dice and said, I don't want to do this, but I'm gonna do it to stay employed and try to provide for my family.
• 45:08
  And um, and some of those some of those people were injured very and um very dramatically.
• 45:14
  So um also these both these men have spoken very openly and publicly about these issues, so I'm not uh betraying any confidential there.
• 45:23
  But uh Danny Smith, who um uh who I worked with, he uh he ended up s suffering like severe bradycardia at one point that you know in the emergency room hospitalizations, uh doctors uh thought they might need to implant uh a cardiac pacemaker to keep his heart going um enough.
• 45:45
  Young healthy guy.
• 45:46
  Yeah, young healthy guy, athlete, athletic, young, healthy guy.
• 45:50
  And and we've heard so many stories like this, and I know that you've um spoken about this before, and I know you've covered um the stories like uh O'Brien Pastrana, right?
• 45:59
  Who is an FDNY firefighter, and you know, some he experienced an adverse event, you know, and and they struggle to be recognized or supported a hundred percent after like so in Danny's case, he's actually been able to access some you know, with some of the work that we had worked together on actually at uh National Coalition of Frontline Workers and able to get um some alternative treatments funded for for guys like for members like this, and Danny was able to connect with some really high-end medical care, not when I say high end, just people that were using their brains and like realizing like this is a real issue.
• 46:32
  Um they're not gaslighting their patients, they're trying to find practical solutions using you know um just repurposed drugs that are available, some of them demonized drugs like ivermectin.
• 46:43
  Um and Danny's still working, so he's he had he was really really sick, and he's um thankfully with with that with those alternative types of um treatments, he's been doing better, he's still working, serving the city, he's still out on a fire truck.
• 46:59
  If you call 911 in New York City, you might have him come and to help you.
• 47:03
  But I mean, to suffer that kind of it's a little scary, right?
• 47:07
  I mean, like this is a guy that I personally care about.
• 47:09
  He's a friend and colleague, and as a firefighter, obviously, just somebody, and you just could concern like how has this impacted his health, and and it's a very difficult job and it's very strenuous, especially like on a cardiac strain, and you just like this was so senseless that he was injured, and now you just hope that he's okay, you know, and it's like and and we we can't ignore the fact that firefighters are you know, the the exposures, the occupational exposures that you have in the adrenaline rushes that you have certainly put you at a higher risk for cardiac events.
• 47:43
  So to have uh an injury like that it's it's can it can be devastating and it can be career ending and it could also I mean it could be life ending when we think about the type of exposures that um that he still has that he's still at work, so he's very very bravely serving City New York still.
• 48:04
  Um and then you know, we have other other members um that so like O'Brien Pastrana, right?
• 48:11
  So O'Brien's case was very tragic and um also really really important.
• 48:16
  Like when you talk about like legal strategy, and you know, so he was one of the earliest uh legal challenges to the mandate on injury, and basically, you know, I'll try to summarize it.
• 48:27
  Um he's a described this uh process of how he was how his case was dealt with um and the court documents are available if you want if anybody wants a deeper dive.
• 48:37
  But basically he he you know didn't want to take the shot like a lot of people, um ends up feeling coerced, decides, all right, I I'm just gonna do this for my family and roll the dice.
• 48:48
  And I don't want to, and I'm not I'm gonna do it anyway.
• 48:51
  Um takes the shot immediately, has like a severely a really severe anaphylactic reaction, ends up hospitalized, tries to you know trying to stabilize himself and goes back to the FDMY uh Bureau of Health Services, where we have you know physicians on staff that are tasked with keeping firefighters healthy, and they tell him that he needs to come into compliance with the vax mandate.
• 49:14
  Um if he doesn't take his uh second shot in his series, he'll be placed on leave without pay uh and and then threatened with termination.
• 49:22
  So despite the anaphylactic reaction, right?
• 49:26
  Um he clearly objected to this and you know, sought out um some you know, a bit saying, well, I had an allergic reaction.
• 49:35
  What why wouldn't that exempt me?
• 49:36
  And they said, well, if you can prove that it's uh anaphylaxis to the components of this of the shots, then you know, you can well we can revisit it, but he couldn't find analogist that would give him an analogy screening because he was still in such an anaphylactic, or I don't know if this I'll lean on you for the proper terminology.
• 49:55
  It wasn't he was still in this like allergic state, so he couldn't tolerate the
• 50:00
  The testing to demonstrate the allergy.
• 50:03
  He was his immune system was already all keyed up from this this exposure, right?
• 50:08
  So he wasn't able to take the allergy testing that would potentially uh substantiate a uh medical exemption in an overly narrow window.
• 50:19
  The window for the medical exemption that the New York City Fire Department said they would recognize was with it within the CDC contraindication guidelines for the COVID-19 vaccine.
• 50:27
  So you had to demonstrate a severe anaphylactic reaction to known vaccine components, which goes back to your well, we didn't even know it was in the vaccine.
• 50:38
  So how could we even exact so here's the thing exactly?
• 50:43
  And this is the point that this is one of the things that we fought.
• 50:46
  And um, because there was no informed consent, because nobody had was nobody in the FDMY, to my knowledge, was given a package insert from any of these uh products uh when they were making their decision.
• 50:58
  Uh and if they had been, the package insert would be blank, correct?
• 51:02
  Because of the uh the EUA status of the shots.
• 51:06
  So we did your to your point.
• 51:08
  We didn't know what was in the shots, and then also with other issues that have come out uh in hindsight with like the DNA contamination, for example.
• 51:17
  You know, even if things weren't listed, um, you know, nobody really knew what was in the shots because there were things in the shots that weren't even supposed to be in the shots, right?
• 51:26
  That um potentially are on oncogenic and have all these other issues.
• 51:30
  Anyway, but so the the only thing that we knew that were in the shots were the adjuvants that were added.
• 51:38
  Um so polysorbid 80 and polyethyn glycol or two common adjuvants that are added into uh vaccines in general.
• 51:46
  So there was a group of us that was able to myself included that said like, you know, I wonder I've had a I've had bad reactions to medication in the past.
• 51:55
  What if I'm allergic to something that I can prove that I'm allergic to?
• 51:58
  And that was that ended up being a viable route for some of us to get back to work um while we fought for everyone to get back to work.
• 52:04
  Um, but in our Brian's case, the damage was already done.
• 52:07
  He was he had already had a bad reaction, was told either take the second start in the series or you're or you're gonna end up being leave without pay and threaten with termination.
• 52:16
  Ends up taking the second shot and has an even worse reaction.
• 52:21
  Um ends up in the hospital again, and um and unfortunately ends up suffering from myocarditis uh as a result and continues to struggle with the the cardiac damage that um that he incurred there um with uh with that process.
• 52:37
  So he's in bed, he's a he's a great guy, he's a tough guy, and we're rooting for him, but he's he's got a you know, he's got a lot of uh he's got a big challenge ahead of him with uh with his health.
• 52:47
  So he he does, and uh it's it's a lot.
• 52:51
  I I think when um when we put this this episode out to podcast, um I will include some links uh for people.
• 52:59
  I I think he's on Instagram, I believe I follow him on Instagram.
• 53:02
  Okay, um, and we can uh include any informations uh for for him and also how is and we've only got just a couple minutes left.
• 53:10
  How can people find and support Bravest for Choice?
• 53:13
  The the most current um platform we're using is our X account, so Bravest for Choice, that's um Bravest uh for spelled out, not the number for Choice.
• 53:23
  Um is the website.
• 53:25
  We're just Bravest for Choice on X.
• 53:27
  So that's probably just the easiest way to find us.
• 53:29
  Okay, excellent.
• 53:30
  And um and you are a is it a 50 uh 50 C1?
• 53:36
  It's not we're nonprofit, but we're not we're not a C3.
• 53:38
  We're uh the political nonprofit.
• 53:40
  I think that's the 50s.
• 53:41
  We're actually I don't know, we can have so many different organizations now.
• 53:45
  Yeah, we're ironically we're I think we're um there's another category that includes like we I always laugh because it's in I don't know if it's the only category, but it includes recreational organizations, and I'm like this has been the first word that comes from.
• 53:59
  Yeah, we um yeah, but we are a nonprofit.
• 54:03
  Um anything, any donations that we received in the past.
• 54:06
  We we we crowdfunded litigation, um, some of which um we brought all the way to the Supreme Court with a riders who already petitioned by um you know one Warren Mendenhall, uh, who many of your audience may be familiar with, was able to uh we were able to work with him on that SCOTUS application with uh him and uh Scott Lloyd and uh and their people.
• 54:26
  And uh unfortunately we were unsuccessful in that case, but we we really brought I mean the the money that we brought in was all spent on um you know grants for individuals in like dire need for certain at certain points in time, um, also um, but largely the litigation, the impact litigation that we were trying to seek out and uh and make sure this never happens again.
• 54:47
  The other the other case being the New Yorkers for religious liberty case, which you mentioned in my bio, where we challenge the process, the unconstitutional process that New York City uh you know levied against its own employees during the religious exemption process for the shots, and uh we have this we gained the support from uh Alliance Defending Freedom that matter, and we're still hopeful that we'll have a positive outcome in that particular case.
• 55:12
  Amazing any, you know, any donations would go towards that.
• 55:14
  And if um we also have uh if you go to our shop on the website, that's bravest for choice.org, you could find our t-shirt apparel shop, and they're actually constitutional amendment t shirts that are that are pretty cool with our have our logo on them.
• 55:30
  And um, if you're into the institution, there's some pretty cool designs, and um, you know, two we're trying to make uh you know, two A has a sort of like a branding coolness around it around the country and the conservative crowd.
• 55:43
  So we're trying to make 1A and 7A and 14A cool too.
• 55:47
  So I love it.
• 55:49
  I'm gonna take a look at that.
• 55:50
  I've got some some bravest for choice swag that I I am always representing.
• 55:54
  I'd love to wear it and I'd love to uh to represent you guys and and to support you.
• 55:59
  I we're we're out of time, unfortunately, it goes by so fast.
• 56:02
  But um, thank you again, Matt, for being here.
• 56:04
  Thank you for your courage, your bravery, and for still staying out here in this fight.
• 56:09
  You know, five years later, you're still going, and I couldn't be prouder to stand in the fight with you and to call you a friend.
• 56:15
  Matt Connor, thank you for it.
• 56:17
  So much and and your we could sit, you know that we consider your friend as well, and we appreciate your time and uh and everyone else's time for listening.
• 56:25
  And um, you know, we're we're we're trying to win this fight.
• 56:27
  We're not just uh reminiscing about uh exactly 2021.
• 56:32
  We're we're trying to win this fight, and we we hope everyone joins us.
• 56:36
  Thank you so much, Matt.
• 56:38
  And that is all the time that we have for today, friends.
• 56:40
  But remember, we are here on the air five days a week, Monday through Friday at 10 a.m.
• 56:44
  Eastern with a different nurse host daily.
• 56:47
  You can also catch the encore at 11 p.m.
• 56:49
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• 56:50
  Please be sure to tune in and listen to myself and these courageous nurses.
• 56:54
  As we walk you through all of these hot topics, we will empower you with information and education.
• 56:59
  We will advocate and we will stand in the gap for you because we are nurses and this is what we do.
• 57:05
  I'm your host, Nurse Kimberly Overton.
• 57:07
  You can find me here every Wednesday morning at 10 a.m.
• 57:10
  Eastern.
• 57:11
  Until next time, be safe, be well, and God bless.
• 57:15
  Remember, we are in a war for truth.
• 57:17
  We are putting out a bounty on the real misinformation and exposing the purveyors of propaganda.
• 57:23
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• 57:28
  It's time and this is time of this.