Latest / Mom Wars / Sucked into the Algorithm

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Sucked into the Algorithm · Mom Wars

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: From the front lines of The Mom Wars, here's Bethany
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Mandel and Cara Kennedy.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Mom Wars.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: I am your host, Bethany Mandel. And this week, I
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: am joined by Teresa Payton. She's the CEO of Fortalist Solutions,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: and she was the first female White House chief information officer.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: And she served under President George W. Bush, one of
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: our favorite presidents in this house. And she's raising three
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: kids of her own. And I wanted to find someone
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: to talk intelligently about the Lindsay Clancy case, because this
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: is what I've been writing about nonstop. I think I've
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: wrote four or five times a week for the last
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: two weeks for the New York Post. I've never written
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: that much for the Post. And there's a lot of
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: hunger to have another voice on this conversation. If you
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: are interested in more of these kinds of conversations, my
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: friend Allie Beth Suckey has been covering it extensively on
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: her podcast Relatable. I really highly recommend that. And I
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: feel like she's doing a good job on how she's
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: covering it from like, the merits of the case and
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: the legal of the case, I think that there's a
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: lane to talk about how we got here with tech.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I have seen the radicalization of women happening in real
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: time with this case. And I think a lot of
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: us have been talking about the radicalization of young men.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Later today, it will be in another week or two, probably,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: it will air. I'm going to have a conversation with Dr.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Leonard Sachs, who wrote... and re-released his book, Boys Adrift.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I think that conversation about young men is going to
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: be on that podcast, so please look out for it.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: But today I wanted to talk to Teresa about sort
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: of where we are with technology and how it landed
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: here with this Lindsay Clancy case. Teresa, when was the
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: first time you heard about this case?
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Well, it was interesting because I saw somebody that I
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: know and I have high respect for, post something about
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: tomorrow is going to be a great day for everybody,
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: but Patrick Clancy. And I thought, I don't know who
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Patrick Clancy is, but who is it? And so then
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: I started looking it up and I thought, well, yeah,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: because his, his kids were murdered and this is horrific.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: And I completely missed the whole point. And, you know,
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: this person who, you know, I hold very dearly in
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: my heart. I realized later, like the manipulation algorithms got
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: to her. And she kind of buys into the theory
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: of he kind of pushed his wife to the edge
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: and that's why his wife did it. She agrees murder
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: is terrible and nobody should murder their own children. And
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: she obviously needed help, but she believes the husband had
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: a role in it. And I just was dumbfounded by
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: the whole thing. And so I just started digging into
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: a deeper, looking more at social media on this case.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: And I thought, oh my gosh, we are in a
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: huge world of hurt right now because we talk so
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: much about social media platforms need to have moderation, but
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: we don't spend time talking about the perils of amplification.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: And that's exactly what's going on here is you have
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: a theory that somebody poses that people want to believe.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: And whether or not that theory is grounded in fact
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: or not, the algorithm sees the engagement with the theory
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: and amplifies it. And no moderation, whether it's a moderation
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: or people moderation will ever be able to keep on
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: top of something like that. And remember these algorithms in
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: social media, the platforms are free. So you and I
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: are the product and this is a feature, not a bug.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So is this a TikTok problem? Or is it Instagram? Like,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: how are how are women getting radicalized on this? Because
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I I'm not on TikTok. And my Instagram only feeds
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: me reels of like clips of the office and one
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: tree hill. So like, where where is this happening for women?
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Everywhere. And I mean, you almost can't escape it. I
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: find it amazing the things that the algorithm tries to
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: feed me that have nothing to do with my interests.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: And I spend significant time basically resetting my algorithm and
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: telling it, I don't want to see this and I
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: don't want to see that. And I spend significant, you know,
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: when I, you know, I do post on social media
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: because I need people to know, you know, we have
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: a company and how to find us. And so when
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: I see things getting served up in my feed that
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: are literally horrifying to me, I try to make sure
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to get served up more of that. But,
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: you know, in this case, it's in all of the above.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: It's every single social media platform. And honestly, it's interesting
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: to see the social media platforms now that they're big,
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: now that they're running their ad revenue game. Now they're saying, well,
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: you know, if you want anything to change, the government's
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: going to have to regulate us. And I think that's
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: the wrong answer. But I think that's going to be
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: how things start to go. What's interesting is I saw
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: that Australia just this week announced they are proposing a
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: bill allowing people to just say, I don't want the
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: algorithm to feed anything to me. I'll go looking for
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: it myself is my layman's terms of what I read
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: about that. And then the EU is having conversations with
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: social media companies around having to give transparency in the algorithm.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So what does that mean? both of those things. What
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: does that look like? When I open my Instagram, what
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: would it look like in Australia versus France if I'm.
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: In the EU?
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't seen any design screens, so I'm going
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: to take a really good guess at this. Just like
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: when you open up your social media platforms and you
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: can choose your privacy settings, you can choose your security settings,
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: I'm assuming there will be an algorithm setting. So you
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: could say something, for example, of You know, I want
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: this to be on parental guidance settings. Even if I'm
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: an adult, like I don't want to see the other stuff,
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: you know, and I want to see more of this
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: and I want to see less of that. And so
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: it could be like, you know, I don't want to
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: see gambling. I don't want to see, you know, murder
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: mayhem or whatever categories they come up with. I'm just
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: making a guess at how the design might work. So
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: it would just fit in with what they already offer.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Is that going to like destroy all of these companies'
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: bottom lines?
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Because I imagine that this is how they pay for,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: it's not, nothing is free. Instagram is not free. We
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: are the product. So like, what is this going to
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: do to Meta's bottom line and TikTok's bottom line? Well, TikTok,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: they have other priorities that are.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: So I have a sneaky suspicion about this, that because
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: it'll be opt-in and not mandated, many people won't even
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: know it's there.
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: They won't opt in and it'll change nothing. That's my
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: worst fear. So I think these are incredibly well intended laws.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: But just like privacy and security settings, you know, a
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: lot of people don't realize all the settings that you
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: have available to you on all the platforms, and you
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: have to opt in. And a lot of times when
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: they roll out a new release, you're opted out of everything. Again,
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: you have to go back in, you have to opt in.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: So privacy is not a feature that actually is the
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: bug requesting privacy is almost like it's a bug because
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: it's like, Oh, you want this? Okay, I'm going to
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: give it to you. But I'm going to make it
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: really hard.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Interesting. So thinking about the people who listen to this show,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I think that they're probably on three different social networks,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: probably on Facebook, probably and like Facebook slash met like
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Instagram meta. on X, and then some of them, unfortunately,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: and yes, I'm judging you, are on TikTok. What kind
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: of settings would you recommend people in all of those
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: places since you're the expert?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, opt into as many privacy settings as
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: feels right to you. And then you can do a
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: little bit of an algorithm cleanse. So a lot of
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: people don't realize this. So with Instagram, for example, you
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: can go into menu, go into content preferences, and you
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: can actually reset and refresh suggested content And you can
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: mark things as not interested. In TikTok, for those of
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: you who use TikTok, you can go into settings and privacy,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: and it has a section called content preferences. And you
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: can actually say refresh for your feed. So you can
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: kind of look at those preferences and do a refresh.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: And then for Facebook and X, unfortunately, there's not really
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: a reset button on your algorithm, but you can flag non-interested.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: And in reading sort of the The privacy and safety
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: and trust Q & A on both sites, they both
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: say by unfollowing, muting keywords, and marking things as not
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: interested can really make a difference in your algorithm.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Fascinating. I'm in my settings right now looking on Instagram
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: for the first time, and there were so many things
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: here that I didn't know existed. I have a large
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: list of blocked people, but there's also limit interactions, hidden words,
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: There's a lot here I did not realize existed until
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: this conversation just now. That's so fascinating.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, yay.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: Okay. Well, I, I always say, I, you know, I
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: always say a prayer before I do an interview and
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: I say, let me at least help one person. So Bethany,
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: there you go. I know I saw a person.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Amazing. I, on my Instagram, I'm so glad that I
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: know now about this algorithm refresh because I have a,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: I have an acquaintance who had a child unfortunately pass
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: away and, And the algorithm decided when I interacted with
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: her content that I wanted more content about dying children.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: And my Instagram algorithm was deluged with it for so
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: long that I was, this was part of why I
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: have so much office and One Tree Hill, because I
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: was trying to feed the algorithm. I'm like, I'm really
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: interested in the love story of Jim and Pam. Give
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: me more of that. Eventually, I untrained the algorithm, but
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: how do I communicate to my algorithm that I never
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: want to see another dead child ever again? Where in
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: my settings does that exist? Because they picked it up.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they sadly don't give you that. And the other
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: piece too is even in the settings that you're going
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: to opt into, this affects only your personalization. It doesn't
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: change the algorithm for the world.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Right. Of course.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Now, if we all kind of weighed in and started
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: doing that, but the problem is, is the algorithm, it
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: just doesn't want to let go. And so if you
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: look at something for a moment, it keeps wanting to
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: serve you more things. But I agree with you. I'll
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: do things like I'll say, okay, I have a few minutes.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: I'm waiting for my plane to board. I'm not on
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: a work call. I'm going to look, specifically search out
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: rolling pandas. Cause that's funny. And puppies and, and baby goats.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: Like I love, I love seeing baby goats jump around.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I don't know why that is. It just brings me
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: a little bit of joy as I'm boarding a flight.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: So those things I'll look at. And then I noticed
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: I get a lot more of that. One thing I
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: do find really interesting because I follow I'm Catholic. So
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: I follow a lot of faith-based sites, a lot of
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: Catholic sites. And I find that what's interesting to your point,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Bethany around, how do I train it? I'm not interested
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: in this. I find that the negative stuff that's on
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: my feed, it doesn't give me that optional button. Are
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: you interested or not interested? It keeps asking me on
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: the Catholic stuff. And I'm like, of course I'm interested.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Why do you keep asking me? So that's just something
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: to kind of watch there too. But you may find
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: that you'll have a post that, you know, obviously is
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: heartbreaking and disturbing and you'll be able to have that
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: opportunity to say, I'm not interested. And so that will
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: reset your algorithm once it's sort of set up to you.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: I wish you could force it.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Yes. I have like a love-hate relationship with the Instagram
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: algorithm because they serve me amazing ads. And I treat
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: the Instagram ads like my personal shopper. I have found
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: my favorite shoes because of Instagram ads. Like, you name it,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I have found. And like literally personal shopper, it now
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: knows because of cookies, I'm sure, that I buy dresses
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: on Walmart. Guys, by the way, Walmart dresses are amazing.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: If you have not looked this summer, you should check
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: them out because you can buy a beautiful dress for $ 15.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: So anyway, the algorithm now knows that. And so it
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: will make a carousel of dresses from Walmart. And I'm like,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I like that. I like that. I like that. And
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I fill my cart. And it's like a personal shopper.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: It's amazing.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: And so I'm kind of torn on the Instagram because
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I really like it a lot in some ways.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, isn't that interesting if they would only ask
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: us what we wanted? Since we're the product and they're
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: selling to us, if they would only ask us what
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: we wanted. That's where I think the EU legislation that's
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: in the process of being passed, the Australian legislation, I
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: think it's really well intended. And I'm hoping that the
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: designs that come out of that will allow you to
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: have that personal shopper effect. while also shielding you from
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: the things that you don't want to see.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But because I can't imagine they're making money off
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: of serving me content about dead children. Like what is the,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, what it is, is there for people who,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know, this sucks them in. They want to
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: suck you in. They want to spend more time. The
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Metta lawsuit was really interesting that settled last week. What
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: were your thoughts on both the significant financial settlement? I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: think it was $ 19 billion, right, from the AGs. I
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: wrote about it, actually, for the New York Post. I
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: interviewed the Kentucky AG. And then also all of these
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: parental settings that are suddenly possible that Metta claimed was
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: not possible, and then they settled and they're like, yeah,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: we could do that.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: You know, there have been many settlements over the years
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: with Meta and some of the other social media platforms.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: And I just don't see the fundamental change happening. Yeah. I,
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: you know, I saw the open letter that Meta made
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: out to the other social media platforms. And I have
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: to say, I applaud them for responding quickly to the
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: lawsuit and saying, we know we need to do more
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: and we need to do better. But we've been at
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: this for 20 years.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: And AI is moving so fast. We don't have 20
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: years to figure this out. And I think about all
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: the lives hurt in the process. There's so much good
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: that came out of social media. There's a way for
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: us to connect. There's a way for me to check
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: in on family members. There's a way for us to
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: encourage each other. But there's this dark side, this downside
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: to the algorithms. Because again, the algorithms have no morals.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: So unless the CEO of the company puts a stake
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: in the ground and says, there's no place on this
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: platform for the following, there is a place on the
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: platform for the following. And so I see what they're
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: doing and I applaud them for doing it, but way
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: more needs to be done. I think it's honestly a
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: little disingenuous to say, you know, now that we're forced
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: into doing it from a lawsuit, which is not what
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: the open letter said, but like, now that we're doing this,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: everybody else should too. And it's like, okay, I, I
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: understand the call to arms because honestly, the children are
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: our future and they're the ones that have the biggest impact.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: You know, my children will never know a time that
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: there wasn't some type of social media platform around. I
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: had a whole childhood without social media platforms, social media,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: you know, the social media, was the playground, the church,
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: the school. And so I know how to turn things
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: on and turn things off. I know pretty much what
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: I'm being manipulated. I wrote a book on manipulation schemes
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: because I saw these social algorithm campaigns coming. And so
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: I wrote the book Manipulated to try to warn others
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: and help people know when you're being manipulated. And there's
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: times I'll read a headline, I'll think, that's ridiculous. And
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: I'll feel all the emotions. And I I wrote a
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: second edition of the book too, right? So I study this.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I look at this for a living and even myself sometimes.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: And I'll think, well, hold on a second. I'm probably
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: just being manipulated. I need to step away from social media.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Why don't I go to the Wall Street Journal or
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: the Washington Times or go to the New York Post
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: and see what they're saying about this? And if they're
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: not even talking about it, this is a manipulation campaign.
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: This week on Conservative Crossroads, the issue, has the Trump
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: administration done enough to advance a pro-life agenda? Chris Ullman
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: says no.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: And you know, one simply needs to look at the
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: number of abortions since 2023. And I think the pro-life movement,
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: and more importantly, pro-life voters, have reasons to feel disappointed
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: in the second Trump administration.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: Eric Kietzel says yes.
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: The proper standard by which to measure whether the Trump
• 17:17
  Speaker 6: administration is doing enough to advance a pro-life agenda is
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: the expectations of pro-life voters who elected him. Should they
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: feel vindicated? And the answer to that question is unequivocally yes.
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: Pro-life agenda and the Trump administration advocacy. Coming up on
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: Conservative Crossroads.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Ricochet. Join the conversation.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: So I think that that's a lot of what the
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Lindsay Clancy case is, is a manipulation campaign against women.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Women are very sensitive about our postpartum experiences. They were
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: not great for a lot of us. And so I
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: think that we feel an inherent knee-jerk sympathy for someone
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: who had a really, really rough go. And in some ways,
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Lindsay Clancy did. In some ways, she had an easier
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: experience because she had more support than anyone I've ever met.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So the hate on Patrick Clancy feels a little off.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: But I think that women are projecting their postpartum experiences
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and their anger at their husband through Patrick Clancy and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: through Lindsay Clancy. And, and so that is what really,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I was having a playground conversation yesterday and a woman
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: kept saying she kept on reaching out for support. I'm like,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: to some extent, but then she killed her kids. So
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't, there's only so much support you
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: can ask for. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't be,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: you know, tried with murder one for murder. I don't like,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: I think, I think that women are, incredibly susceptible to
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: this level of manipulation because we are an empathetic group
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: of individuals by and large. How can moms protect themselves
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: from this manipulation?
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is always
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: make sure you've got a variety of different news sources.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Social media is not a news source. Social media is
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: a way to post things that you've seen in the
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: news and then do your own commentary on it. Social
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: media is not a news source. I would walk away
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: and I'd go to three. I always say to people,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: have three different sources that you check and make sure
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: they're on, whether it's political or whatever it is, make
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: sure they're on different sides of the aisle. Don't have
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: it all be biased sort of towards one, one bent
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: and then go read any trusted vetted, you know, experienced journalists.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: See what they're saying about this and then make up
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: your own mind. The algorithm doesn't want you to make
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: up your own mind. It just wants you to stay
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: on the platform. And you will stay on the platform.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: The more outrageous something is, the longer you are likely
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: to stay on the platform, to share it in direct messages,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: to repost, to engage, to interact. And it has nothing
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: to do with necessarily whether or not it's true. It's engagement.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah. And that is such an important, that trusted
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: journalism portion is so important. When I first started hearing
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: about the case, the only thing I saw on social
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: media was, Lindsay Clancy cries through this part or this part.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh gosh, that seems terrible that a
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: woman's crying and they're like talking about. And then when
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I listened to like the actual reporters who had been
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: following the case from the beginning, who were in the courtroom,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: and one of them in particular, one of the reporters
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: who was in the courtroom, she talked about hearing the
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: 911 call that Patrick Clancy made. And it's not public.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: And so we can just read transcript summaries of it.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Transcript is horrible in and of itself.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: And I never, ever want to listen to it. And also,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: you know, along the same lines, like somehow I was
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: protected by, and I somewhat protected myself from the footage
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: of Charlie Kirk being killed. I set my settings for
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: two weeks after Charlie was murdered that my Instagram videos
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: didn't autoplay. And so that protected me a great deal.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: And so I encourage people to proactively change your settings
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: in moments like that because it does desensitize you. But
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: also like I knew Charlie and I don't want to
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: see my friend murdered. I couldn't handle that. And so
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: like setting those boundaries also I think is really important
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: on your social media. So I'm reading, I mentioned earlier
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: in the show, I'm reading Leonard Sachs' book, Dr. Jonathan Sachs. Sorry,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: he's an amazing rabbi. Rabbi Leonard Sachs just wrote this book,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Boys Adrift, and he re-released it. This is his third edition.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: And he re-released it because there's so much new material
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: that he wanted to hit on AI, on all these things.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, I'm a public figure. I'm a commentator.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: I talk about a lot of this stuff. I was
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: shocked at what he was saying about AI girlfriends. And like,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I was in like a briefing on AI and parenting
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: things a couple of weeks ago, like in an off
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: the record briefing with people who do this stuff. And
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I was still shocked. I was shocked in that briefing.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And then I was re-shocked in this when I'm reading
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Leonard Sacks' Boys Drift, because The level of crazy is
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: so jarring. AI girlfriends, and you can program, you can
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: take a woman's face that you know and put it
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: on a porn video, and it's like you've created, it's
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: like Make Your Own Adventure, you've created a porn video
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: with someone's face on it, and people can't tell that
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: it's not you. It's really, it's a scary world out there.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: He recommended... I guess it's like an internet filter for kids.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Hold on, I'm opening up my phone to check because
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: I ordered it immediately. It's called Castito. Are you familiar
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: with it?
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: I have heard of it.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: So I just like kind of want to bubble wrap
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: my children and let them read, like play Super Mario
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and go on Zoom for their classes, but otherwise just
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: how do we protect our kids from all of this stuff?
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: And like the algorithm too, like how do I protect
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: them from the algorithm? Yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is a tough question. I know with
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: each of our kids, we told them they would not
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: be on social media until they were at least 14.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: And they would say things like, everybody else is on it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: I'm like, nope, I met the one other mother who
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: agrees with me. So the two of you are not
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: on it and it's going to be just fine. And
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: over time, my kids thanked me because they had their
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: friends get in trouble for doing silly things online because
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: you're not you're not mature enough to handle the power
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: that is social media. And, you know, one of the
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: things that in writing the book, you're protecting your internet identity.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: Are you naked online? One of the things that the
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: privacy lawyer tech Claypool and I found was this one
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: study that talked about the dopamine hit for adults and
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: children that you get when somebody likes your post is
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: the equivalent of winning a hand in Vegas. So when
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: you think about children, so I mean, think what that
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: means to all of us, right? But at least we're adults.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: So hopefully by now we've figured out how to regulate
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: our impulses. Maybe not, but hopefully by now. But for
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: children who are still growing and are still learning how
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: to regulate impulses, social media is no place for them.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: So even once they hit a certain age, I said
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: to each of them, you get to pick your one platform.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: And it is a platform that I will have an
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: account on. You will tell all of your friends. My
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: mom's not spying on us, but she will be watching
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: all of our posts. And if she thinks we're getting
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: out of line, she's going to call the school, the police,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: or your parents, whichever one seems more appropriate. And my
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: kids are just fine. And they actually thank me for saying,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: you know, you get to have one. And then once
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: I see you're responsible with one, you've got good grades,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: you've got a good social life, you play sports. then
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: we can talk about whether or not you can handle
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: a second one. And they've really appreciated that because they
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: had to choose one, choose wisely, tell their friends, I'm
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: not going to be on these other platforms. And then
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: in screen time, screen time was another big part of
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: the conversation of how many minutes a day do you
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: get to be on that social media platform? And, you know, just,
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: and everybody, 14 is the legal age around COPPA, so
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: the privacy rights of children, but everybody knows their kids
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: the best. So Sometimes your 16-year-old is still not ready.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: And sometimes your 14-year-old is definitely ready. And so I
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: would say to parents, you know your kids the best.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: And so you choose the age that's right for them.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: These are the decisions that I made after doing the research.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: It may or may not work for other families.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: I was surprised when I told my three kids who
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: have devices that I was installing this on all of
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: their devices. Zero pushback.
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: Good.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I was bracing myself for real fights because my kids
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: love screens, right? I do too. And I framed it
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: as like, this is here to keep you safe and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: protect you. And even when they hit the time limit thing,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: they didn't get mad. I was like, we've had this
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: conversation your whole life. Hours of screens is not good
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: for you. And this sets a limit and I can't
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: be everywhere and do all the things. I don't have
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: a timer with me that says, oh God, I think
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: he's been on Super Mario for like four hours. I
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: can't do that. And so this is that for, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: it's what I love is that I registered the iPad
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: and the computer for each kid. They can't do two
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: hours on one and two hours on another. It's like
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: that kid gets two hours total. And you can also block,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: and by the way, this is not sponsored. I paid
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: for this, just FYI, guys. you can block like gambling
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and all these different things. And I tested it. I
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: went on like pornography sites on my son's computer and
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: then I deleted the history. So he didn't know, but
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I was testing the limits of it and everything was blocked.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: And that to me was such a relief because the,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: and I, when I wrote stolen youth, my book with
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Carol Markowitz, the research on like the age that especially
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: boys are exposed to pornography, it changes the way they
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: think about intimacy and, in really, really scary ways. And
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: so that was also in Leonard Sachs' book that was
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: really a wake-up call and really scary. So you just
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: wrote a piece for House and Habit, which I love her,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Jessica Krauss. She's amazing. If you guys are looking for
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: like a red-pilled entertainment person, she is on Instagram and
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: she is like one of my favorites and I would
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: be a dream to have her on the show, honestly.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: But you just wrote a piece for her about the mother,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: the Bank of America woman executive who was murdered in
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Times Square. And you quoted something really disturbing. Gallup polling
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: found that 16% of Americans believe violence is sometimes acceptable
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: to achieve a political goal, with younger adults significantly more
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: likely to agree. This reminds me of Charlie Kirk. Among
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: young men who report feeling lonely often or always, that
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: number jumps to 45%. This is how we got Charlie Robinson. So...
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: What can parents do to prevent their sons from becoming
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Tyler Robinson?
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: This is so hard. And so I think the first
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: one is having the conversation with your kids, but also
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: kind of checking our attitudes as well. So the moment
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: any of us reduce somebody down to a title, to
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: the institution they work for, empathy just took the exit round.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: So the first thing we have to think about, whether
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: we voted for somebody or not, or we like a
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: company or not, when something bad happens to a person,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: the first thing you have to think about is, my gosh,
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: my heart breaks for them. Do not let empathy take
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: an exit.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Ramp.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: And then you can kind of take a look at
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: the rest of the facts and everything else. But at
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, we are losing our humanity here.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: And I know the algorithm is feeding us things that
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: make us react a certain way. But again, we don't
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: have to feed the algorithms. And so we have to,
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: we have to be an example for our kids and
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: we can't at the dinner table, be reducing people to
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: titles and institutions or a political party or whatever ends
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: up happening. And it's very easy to do because our
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: brain has to categorize logically where everything fits. Otherwise we'd
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: go crazy, but we have to be very careful about
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: the labeling of somebody that we disagree with or the
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: labeling of somebody when something happens. Um, so, so I
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: think that's a big one. And then just really having
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: the conversation with your kids from, you know, as soon
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: as they can understand you. So from age zero to
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: your adult kids and having these open conversations at the
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: dinner table, getting them to talk about current events, even
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: if you disagree with their point of view, asking them
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: where they got their point of view from and asking
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: them to show you. So for example, like I, my
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: kids were telling me about a bunch of different things,
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: my boys and I was like, where are you getting
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: your news from? And they're like, oh, we get our
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: news from ROCA News, R-O-C-A, also not an advertisement. And
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: so I actually subscribe to the ROCA newsletter so I
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: can read in real time what my young sons who
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: are young adults, what they're reading. So I always ask
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: them like, where did you get that from? I hadn't
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: heard that with no judgment, whether I agree with it
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: or not. And then I go read it myself. And
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: then if I think the kids need to be corrected
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: because it's not a factual statement, then I'll do it
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: at that time. But I always try to be fairly
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: even handed. Again, this depends on your kid's age.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Right, right. So you wrote in your piece for House
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: and Habit at the end, technology is very good at
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: learning at what keeps us angry, clicking and scrolling. We
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: were talking before we started recording, which is always a mistake.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: And I thought that you were a little too generous
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: to the algorithm because you I don't want to put
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: words in your mouth, but basically like the social media
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: companies might be trying to fund divisiveness, but the algorithm
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: is not. It's just feeding into us. I don't know
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: if I buy that. I feel like there are, maybe
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: this is me being Candace Owens a little bit and
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: being too conspiratorial, but especially on TikTok, I think this
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: is a given, but anywhere on any algorithm, it does
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: feel like there's people putting their thumbs on the scale
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: on the algorithm.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Now, they could be. So you bring up a great
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: point because you're right. We were talking before we came
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: on the air and I said the technology of an
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: algorithm in and of itself is not evil. It doesn't
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: have malevolence, nor does it have benevolence. It doesn't have
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: human empathy. It doesn't have human emotion. But it is
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: created by an engineer. And then the question is, is
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: through social community moderation, rules and regulations, but also profits
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: over people motivations. You're right, Bethany, people put their thumb
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: on the scale a little bit. And so they could
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: change the algorithm in such a way that it has
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: negative consequences on us. The technology in and of itself
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: isn't bad, but what are the motives of the engineer
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: or of the company that owns the algorithm? That's where
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: the technology can take a turn for the worse.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think on TikTok, do you agree
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: that there is benevolence there? Like the 15 to one anti-Israel,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: anti-Western values, like all of that mind view, there is
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: benevolence on the TikTok end. Do you agree on that front? Yeah.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Well, what I will say, because we work with all
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: the social media platforms on internet takedowns and things like that,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I will say TikTok is the fastest to respond. When
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: we do internet takedown requests on a variety of different things,
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: it could be imposter accounts, deep fakes pretending to be
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: somebody they're not. It can also be, unfortunately, non-consensual illicit imagery,
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: both adults and children. It could be a variety of
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: different things. I will say out of all of the
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: platforms that we work with, they tend to be the
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: fastest to respond. So it could just literally be the
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: volume and magnitude that they have that they need to
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: beef up their public safety and trust. And I agree
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: with you. The internet is no place for you being anti-Jewish.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: The internet is no place for inciting harm on individuals
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: because of race, color, creed. or a person because of
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: their belief system. Like there should be zero tolerance of
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: that on any platform. Same thing with pornography.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I'm Greg Karumbas. Join Jim Garrity of National Review and
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: me each weekday for the 3 Martini Lunch podcast. We'll
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: give you the good, bad, and crazy news of the day,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: and lots of laughs too. Find us right here on
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the Ricochet Audio Network at ricochet.com or wherever you get
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: your podcasts.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: What's been disturbing is watching the internet radicalize against individuals
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: like the UnitedHealthcare CEO, who, you know, he's dead now.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: But also like Patrick Clancy. The mobbing that happens, I
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: can see, and also the juror, that I think is
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: juror number 12, the one who was the one lone
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: holdout and who I have a lot of respect for.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: As soon as the details of that became known, I
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: thought to myself, this man is going to get doxxed
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: by TikTok, and he's going to have his life absolutely
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: just hounded. And I hope that he knew that. I
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: hope that he went into what he did knowing what
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: he was signing up for. Because, you know, no one
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: should have explicit threats, you know, posting Bethany Mandel's address, like, obviously.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: But I think that the gray area becomes this vilification
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: of individuals. especially when they're someone who was murdered in
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: the streets of New York City, someone whose three children
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: were murdered and he walked into his house. Like, I wonder, like,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: what the line is there in saying, like, you can't
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: victimize people or re-victimize people because this is just so
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: deeply evil. And that, to me, is what bothers me
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: perhaps most about the Lindsay Clancy stuff is actually Patrick Clancy. Yeah,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: People's behavior is going to get other people hurt or killed. Yes.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: And so, for example, that is considered jury intimidation, what
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: was playing out on social media. And I was actually
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: aghast that it was spelled out that there was a number,
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: it was a holdout, and the gender was given.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Because now, you know, you just have to spend a
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: little bit of time researching to try to figure out.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: There's only three men.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: It's not hard. And so I don't know what, on
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: what planet ethically anybody thought that was okay. I don't
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: care if there's a law for it or not. I
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: don't know on what planet anybody ethically thought that it
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: was okay to basically say it's one of three people
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: that you should be mad at here.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Horrible.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Absolutely horrible. I think one thing that I have seen
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: is it does make a difference if we make our
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: voices heard. A lot of people don't realize you can
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: actually report posts. Now this feels like a little bit
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: of whack-a-mole, but every social media platform has a public
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: safety and trust operation. And you can report these posts
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: to say it's inciting violence or it's not factual and
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: things like that. And so if you see something and
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: you're worried about other people seeing it and not being
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: able to discern, this is not appropriate. You can actually
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: flag it to public safety and trust. And then the
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: algorithm starts to see people don't like what they're seeing here.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: And so now you're doing something.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. Cause I was thinking, as you were saying,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, but they don't do anything about it,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: but you're right with the algorithm though. Then it will
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: downvote the content.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Yes. And, you know, we haven't spent, you know, so
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: for example, with the Luigi Mangione situation on that one,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: absolutely horrific. You know, the man who was killed, let's
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: go back. Right now, people just say United CEO Healthcare, right?
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: He was married.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: He had children. They now don't have a dad. Like,
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: empathy took the exit sign when somebody said CEO of
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: United Healthcare. And people... left their empathy at the door.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: And there was discussions about Luigi and even some women
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: were like, he's handsome. I'm like, what is wrong with you?
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Why is this conversation even happening? And it gets back
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: to when we see things that are inappropriate, that are
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: going to incite more violence. So there was actually a
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: doxing of anybody who had any kind of a one degree,
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: two degree business relationship with the UnitedHealthcare CEO for a
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: while trending on Reddit. So there was a Reddit thread
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: that was called Luigi is Right. And they were like,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: let's dox all the CEOs that do business with UnitedHealthcare.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: And people were just going to public databases. And the
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: thing is, is like, sure, you could do that, but
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: it would take you a while. But people were aggregating it.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: And then they created a game. So then they created
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: a game on Reddit where they would say, see if
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: you can get a picture of the house with the
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: car in the driveway and the license plate. See if
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: you can get a picture of them going to work.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: How is this? And Reddit didn't take this down?
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: And they finally did. But it takes a village here.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: And we all have to do our part. So depending
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: on what social media platform you choose to use, whether
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: it's Snapchat, whether it's Reddit, whether it's Telegram, whether it's WhatsApp,
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: whatever it is that you are using. when you see
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: things and you know, they are wrong, just take the
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: extra moment to report it.
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: You will do something for the greater good. I, I,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: so I'm friends with a couple of guys who do
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: private security. They used to, you know, be like, you know,
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: the big meaty guys in government and now they do
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: private security. And I remember after Brian Thompson was murdered,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: they were like, all we do is we do is
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: work now because we're on 24 seven now. But again,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: the unspoken thing that I never said to them was
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: I was thinking of like everything that happened with Charlie Kirk, especially.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: And if someone wants to kill you, they're going to
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: kill you.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: They will.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Like Charlie Kirk had very good security and there's only
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: so much that can be done. If the president can
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: have a bullet shot through his ear, like no one's safe.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: And so this, this is so important to think about
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: like how, How the internet is feeding this because in
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: no realm did I think that this could possibly be
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: allowed or legal to have that amount of personal information
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: out there about it's a hit list.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: It's an absolute hit list and it is against the
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: terms and conditions of the platform.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: The platforms have so much volume right now. They can't
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: keep up with everything.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Participating in that should de-platform you from the internet. Like
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: there should be like, if you do that, you're not
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: allowed to have a social media account. Like what are
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: like people in Congress doing here along the lines of
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: the EU and Australia, but also just like punitive measures, nothing.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: You're shaking your head.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: So in fairness, out of just incredible respect for people
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: who put themselves out there, run for public office, and
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: hold a public office seat, it's such a hard job.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: We ask them to think about everything from gas prices,
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: to critical infrastructure, to K-12 education, to the budget. I mean,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: what do we not ask them to get involved in
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: these things in the United States? And so I I'm
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: sorry that I was shaking my head because I, I
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: love to give people hope. You know, I call myself
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: a pragmatic optimist. So I look for like, where can
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: I find hope that is actually achievable and something that
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: we can actually go for. I do need everybody to
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: talk to their elected officials and say, you've had enough.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: And to say that social media is no place for pornography.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: Social media is no place for doxing people. And you
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: create your shortlist and you have to talk to all
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: of your elected officials and say enough is enough. The
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: second thing we can all do is we can project
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: a positive path forward. So for those of us who
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: are on social media, we can offer something different, something positive.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: And then the other pieces report, report, report. We are
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: the neighborhood watch. Superman is not coming to save us
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: from this. And we can't say, well, the Hill needs
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: to do more. They're not going to be able to
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: get it done. So it is up to us to
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: be the neighborhood watch of the platforms that we choose
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: to visit. We have to report, report, report. And if
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: you don't feel like you're being heard, you can always
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: go to the FTC and you can say, I don't
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: feel like the social media platform is hearing the problems
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: that are occurring on the social media platform. The FTC
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: has taken a pretty strong stand. And if you see
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: something that looks criminal, you can report it to the
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: FBI at ic3. gov and say, there's a link here and
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: this looks criminal. Somebody's going to get hurt. There is
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: a desk that reads every report filed on ic3. gov. Wow.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: That's incredible. And a lot of people who work on
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the Hill actually listen to the show, funny enough.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, awesome.
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: Well, hello.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: And if you have any questions, I'm happy to come
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: brief you anytime.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Where can folks follow your work and your thoughts on
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: social media?
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: So I'm the most active on X. I've been there
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: for a long time and have a community there. So
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: you can follow me on X. But if that's not
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: your platform of choice, we have a company account there.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: And I've got my personal account, which is Tracker Peyton.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: On Instagram, I'm Tracker Peyton. On Facebook, I'm me. I
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: don't typically accept a lot of friend requests from people
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: I don't know on Facebook, but I am on Instagram
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: and Fortalist has an account there as well. So you'll
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: read a lot of tips and things coming out from
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: the company as well. I do have an account on TikTok,
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: but it's more just to upload videos for people who
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: are on TikTok. And again, I'm trying to chart sort
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: of a positive course there. And then LinkedIn. I do
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: a lot of, so if you're interested in like how
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: things impact the business world or things like fraud and fighting,
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: you know, deep fakes and things like that, I'll post
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: there as Teresa Payton.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: was a really interesting and informative conversation. I really appreciate it.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: Oh, thanks for having me. And thanks for all the
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: great work you do.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you. All right. Until next time, guys, don't forget
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: to leave a review. It's been a while since someone
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: left a review and hit subscribe and don't forget saddle up.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Ricochet!
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Join the conversation.