Latest / Adrian Milag Podcast / The REAL Reason They Shut Down the Traditional Latin Mass | Dr. Kwasniewski REVEALS

Transcript

The REAL Reason They Shut Down the Traditional Latin Mass | Dr. Kwasniewski REVEALS · Adrian Milag Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Almost every bishop has felt the need to pretend to implement traditions que is, you know, however much they've actually done so.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what that has meant concretely, and this is the dire aspect, is that many we have lost many traditional Latin masses.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And in some dioceses, whole communities, communities of hundreds of devout, very active, zealous, faithful have been shattered, shattered.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's it's diabolical, really.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: But they've been shattered by the by the so-called implementation of traditionas custodes.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because the the bishop just yanks their mass.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: He says, nope, you can't have mass anymore.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you can only have mass in this one remote place, which is hard to get to and isn't big enough for everybody.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so so yes, you still have the mass, but you know, it's no longer what it was before when it was when it existed in many, many different places.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: The errors of modernity, naturalism, rationalism, liberalism, materialism, um, anthropocentrism, etc.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: If we're not against these errors, then we will simply be washed away and swept away by them, and there will be nothing left.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the traditional Latin Mass, this is the final thing I'll say.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: The traditional Latin mass is thoroughly pre-modern.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Everything about it developed before the period of modernity.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: No matter when you define the beginning of modernity, even if you define it as far back as William of Ockham, the traditional Latin liturgy is completely pre-modern and it's anti-modern because it's theocentric, it's illiberal, it's tr it transcends reason and rationalism.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's fully supernatural, it's unafraid of supernatural truths revealed by God.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in every way, it's pre-modern and anti-modern.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this is exactly what makes it so potent right now for us and so appealing to Catholics who are trying to escape from the prison of bedan.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: For our son, the Holy Spirit, amen.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord's with you.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus, holy Mary, Mother of God.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our past.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Dr.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Kwasnowski, to the to our program historian Catholico, a Catholic theologian, philosopher, composer, and author of his newest book, Adorientem.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: What uh privilege to have you, Dr.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Peter! Thank you very much.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it, Adrian.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: I saw you many times, your interviews and documentary about Latin mass, and uh I was so amazed uh with your knowledge and your past experience as a theologian, Dr.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Peter.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a privilege to be able to work for the Lord and for the church at this time.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's a difficult time, a confusing and chaotic period of time we're living in.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: But there's such a rebirth and rediscovery of so many traditions in the church.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's irrepressible.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants to be reconnected with the fullness of the Catholic faith.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um this is this is just a sign, a true sign of the times, uh, a a real evidence of the Holy Spirit pouring himself out, um, you know, in spite of the in spite of the obstacles that people have have put in his way.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, I'm excited.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I I really I look forward every day to to what the Lord has in store for us.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know your take about the upcoming consecration of SSPX on July 1.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, not as if that isn't a difficult question in itself.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I so I publicly speaking, I don't take a stance on that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not saying 100% yes or 100% no.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I in fact I am very much opposed to people taking simplistic approaches to that question.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do think that it's a vexed and vexing question.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can understand fully the arguments on both sides.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have friends on both sides, good, good friends.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I myself have attended Mass at Diocesan, Diocesan Latin Masses, Fraternity of St.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Peter, Institute of Christ the King, you know, um, Institute of the Good Shepherd, Society of St.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Pius the Tenth.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been around, I've I've seen a lot in my life.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I am, you know, what I pray, I pray for the reform and the renewal of the Catholic Church.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that the Society of St.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Pius the 10th has a really important role to play in the recovery of tradition, in the defense of the faith.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so in that sense, I support the SSPX.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I always have.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I I'm I I will admit that I'm uncomfortable with with the uh this is a very extreme step.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know why they're doing it.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I I do understand why they're doing it, but it's an extreme step, and it's a step that's fraught with with many dangers.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, let's just say I'm praying very earnestly about this.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you, uh Dr.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, praying for them and for the church, for the whole church.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you started in the modern academic word, but became one of the strongest intellectual voices for the traditional Latin mass.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, what was the decisive moment or realization that changed everything for you?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Some people do have a road to Damascus experience, a moment when they're stricken the way Paul was, uh, and and you know, everything changes for them, and they go from being a fire-breathing persecutor of Christians to uh, you know, heroic apostle uh to the Gentiles.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that happens to people with the Latin Mass as well.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: It did not happen that way for me.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um my my conversion, so to speak, was much slower.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I I mean I've talked about this in other interviews, but I I first uh you know, in high school, um I was in a very liberal parish.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't know anything about tradition.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I went into the charismatic movement.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that was healthy for me at that time as a high school student.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: It it revitalized my faith.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then in college, I discovered the reverent novus ordo.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: I discovered Gregorian chant.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I I became enamored of the so-called smells and bells because they just made sense.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: They they were they they made sense to me as an expression of the the reverence that we should bring to the holy sacrifice of the mass and the mystery that it is, you know, that it's something beyond reason and above reason and something that we something that we need to come into humbly and prayerfully and and you know on bended knee.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of those traditional practices that I saw for the first time in the Novus Ordo in college, I went to Thomas Aquinas College in California, um, you know, made sense to me.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: They just made sense to me.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody had to really explain them to me.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was an intuitive sense.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: But then I discovered the traditional mass.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: First, as a low mass, um, I didn't really know what to make of it, but I thought it was beautiful, I thought it was solemn, um, I thought it was fascinating.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I began to go to the low mass when I could attend it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Then I went, then I became introduced to the high mass, the sung mass.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And as as you know, as the years went on, I just fell in love more and more with the traditional rite, and I came to understand it better and better.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was kind of a slow, almost like the dawn turning into the day.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just it wasn't like suddenly the lights are on.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was, you know, this gradual awakening to the riches of tradition.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And also at the same time, um, I, you know, I began to learn about the ruptures that had occurred and how the novice ordo was a rupture from the tradition that the church had followed for so many centuries, for millennia in in most, in many, in many ways.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this began to disturb me more and more.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it it it moved me to dig deeper and deeper and deeper into the research.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I started.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So this is when this is while I was a professor of philosophy and theology, and I was teaching other areas, not liturgy.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was researching on the privately, personally, all of these questions, and I began to write more and more about them.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, I mean, I guess I could just say, not to make this answer too long, that after I had been teaching at the university level for about 20 years, I reached a point in my career where my passion for the liturgy and my desire to devote myself to this, to the defense of tradition, became so strong, and also my reputation had become sufficiently strong that I was able to stop teaching, in a sense, early retire retirement.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, devote myself 100% to writing and lecturing and publishing.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was nice, that was 2018.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: 2018 is when I did did that.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, what is uh authentic Catholic worship must be, Dr.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Peter?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, what it has to be, authentic Catholic worship has to be ad orientem through and through.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be theocentric, it has to be centered on God.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's what theocentric means, centered on God, to such an extent that we forget ourselves.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if in worship we don't forget ourselves as we lose ourselves in wonder at the awesomeness of God and at His His His adorable, infinite holiness and goodness and majesty and beauty, if that's not happening, at least sometimes, you know, then something is going very wrong.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what Ratzinger talks about, you know, in many of his works.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about the the closed circle that modern liturgy has become, where the priest is facing the people, the people are facing the priest, they're all talking to each other, they're singing about themselves in the songs.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at the lyrics, you know, it's become very emotional, very group-oriented, very anthropocentric, man-centered, um, very communitarian or communal, uh, as if the community is the main point.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the main point.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: The main point is the adoration of Almighty God and the offering to him of a perfect sacrifice, which is not really something we do.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that Christ does for us, and we have the privilege of simply uniting ourselves to it.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, it's like our Lord is doing this offering.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is the sacrifice, the eternal sacrifice, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: He is performing that sacrifice above all on the cross on Good Friday.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he he opens up through his omnipotence, he opens up a way for us to unite ourselves to that pre-existing sacrifice.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's so wonderful.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the things about the traditional mass is that you have a sense that it's sort of always been going on and always will be going on.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes people are who are unfamiliar with it, they're they're kneeling at church and they didn't even realize that mass has begun because the priest has come out and they're starting to say the psalm at the foot of the altar.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you sort of look up and go, oh, Mass has started.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's almost like it doesn't, it starts like you're just entering into this flowing stream of prayer.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then when Mass ends, it's it's the same way.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's this ocean of silence that that you lapse back into.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like, you know, I don't know, it's hard to describe.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are so many metaphors you could use, but true worship has to be centered on God and it has to be about our interior union with Him in adoration, contrition, Thanksgiving, and supplication, right?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so this is really in a nutshell what I think is the huge difference between modern forms of worship, both Catholic and Protestant, and the traditional Latin form of worship.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or Byzantine for that matter.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to exclude the Eastern rites.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: So why did you write uh this book, Adoriente, Dr.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Peter?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, this is just a little, it's a little pamphlet.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can see it's something that you know fits inside the cocket, right?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a large book, it's something you can read in one session, in one sitting.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote it for the simple reason that there's a lot of misinformation out there on the internet.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: The internet is a marketplace of misinformation.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it is.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh of course there's a lot of good information out there too, but you have to know how to sift these things.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm convinced that that we that if we want to get to the bottom of any important and controversial question, we have to separate ourselves from the noise and the chatter and just take at least a few hours to read something that's been carefully prepared, deeply researched, you know, and and coherently presented.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I try to do in this book.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I give all the arguments for why the priest and the people should be facing eastward together, why the priest should be leading the people in pilgrimage to the heavenly Jerusalem, why they should all be looking in common towards the east, which is the symbol of the Christ who is to come, um, and and what a huge difference this makes spiritually, psychologically, theologically, liturgically.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: It makes all the difference in the world.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I explain the historical background, the theology behind it, and then I go into why people argued for versus poplum.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: What did they think they were doing?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they thought it was the early Christians' way of worship.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: We know that now.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um they thought that, you know, well, it's, you know, we need to emphasize the community because the mass is like the Last Supper.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, it's not, and the Last Supper wasn't done versus Populum either.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I sort of dis I defend onorientum and then I dismiss um or clear up all of these faulty arguments that people make for versus populum.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then at the end of the book, I basically say this is a decisive question, because this is a question of what is our fundamental orientation in worship?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Are we oriented versus deum towards God in some symbolic, visible way?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or are we oriented versus populum towards people, towards the people?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where what is our orientation?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the answer to that question will explain everything else about whether you're living the traditional Catholic faith or not.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Just for uh clarification, because maybe uh some of our viewers didn't understand what is versus papalum, uh, Dr.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Peter.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Could you could you explain?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: It is facing the people, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Which is in Novus Ordo.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So versus in Latin just means towards, and populum is people, uh, versus populum would be the priest facing the people at mass, which is the typical way the novice order is celebrated everywhere.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then uh ad orienta means towards the east.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the reason for that is that again, going back to the earliest centuries of the church, uh the Christians understood the east, the place where the sun rises, as a cosmic symbol of Christ.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Christ is the light who enlightens the whole world just like the sun does.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Christ is also the one who will come from the east in his second coming.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: He says that explicitly in the Gospel of Matthew.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in the prophet Zechariah calls Christ the Orient, right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: The East.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, this this is you find this throughout Scripture.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not something the early Christians made up.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: They they were getting it from Scripture itself.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the church fathers, you know, reprise this, say Basil the Great says very strongly in the in his um in his treatise on the Holy Spirit, and we're talking, this is an early, an early writing, this is from the the golden age of the church fathers.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: He says that we have learned from the apostles to face east at the Eucharistic prayer, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so at very least, when the when when at in the part of the Eucharistic liturgy, when the gifts are being offered to, or the oblations are being offered to Almighty God, the bread and wine transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ, at very least, at that part of the liturgy, everyone should be facing together to the east.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's what Basil is saying.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are arguably parts of the liturgy historically that were done not towards the east.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and for example, even to this day, at a traditional Latin Mass, at a high mass, uh the deacon faces to the north when he chants the gospel.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So not everything is done to the east, but the Eucharist is always offered to the East.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that I think is a fundamental, non-negotiable uh norm for worship.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And your book, Dr.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, titled Ad Orientum, the direction that changes everything.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So what exactly changes in the soul of the priests, the faithful in the church, when we return to this ancient practice?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think to some extent I've I've already touched on that, but I can make it more explicit now.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, the priest.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: The priest is in very great danger of forgetting who he is and what he's doing when he faces the people.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this is something I've talked to countless priests, and they all agree about this.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that when you're turned towards the people, there's a temptation.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, in the old days, the priests were taught, and when I I shouldn't say the old days, I mean after Vatican II, that that's in the boomer days, um, the the the the seminarians and the young priests were taught to look at the people, to make eye contact with the people, to have this kind of warm relationship with them.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, but that's not the the the priest is not a social facilitator.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's not somebody who's there to make people feel good or to affirm them or whatever.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they have mothers and fathers for.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they have, you know, they that that's what they have therapists for.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: The priest is there to to worship God and to lead the people in the worship of God and to teach them also about God.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: But that again is not a warm, fuzzy, you know, feeling.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's actually an act of Christ the teacher.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you look at Christ in the gospels, he's proclaiming the truth in a bold manner.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so whether the priest is teaching or even more importantly, when he is leading the people in worship, it has to be not about him as a personality, as an individual.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be about Christ the Lord.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the more that a priest can disappear, can can the more that he can be absorbed in his role as altar Christus, as another Christ, the better it is for him, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: For his humility, for his piety, for his devotion, uh, for his fervor, for his zeal, really, for souls.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so when a priest is not looking at the people and not tempted to perform for them, not tempted to tell jokes or tell stories or make them feel at home or whatever, when he's not tempted to do that, but instead he is concentrated on pleasing the father and doing the will of the father, which is all that Jesus Christ ever did and all he ever said he wanted to do, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: When he does that, the people pick up on that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: It it it it it positively influences the priest in his self-image.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: He now sees himself as simply a tool and instrument of Christ, the high priest.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the people pick up on that as well, and they realize oh, he's here to pray.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I must be here to pray as well.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: He's here to adore and glorify Almighty God.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: I need to orient myself to that as well.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what the priest does influences everything and everybody.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: As prays the priest, so pray the people.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is the this is a rule that is an inflexible rule.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So adorientum first and foremost benefits the priest as altar Christus, as um acting in persona christi in the person of Christ, on behalf of Christ, as a tool or instrument of Christ the high priest.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: It obviously benefits the people then, um, in the sense that uh by by rebounding to them, they they pick up on the same um sense of this mass is not about us.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's about it's about the love and mercy of God manifested in the passion, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I need to unite myself to that mystery.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I need to subordinate myself to it.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: So mass is about us only in the sense that we are united to Christ, we are members of his body, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore the emphasis has to be put on Christ first.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I say that?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can see one another.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: As St.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: John says in his epistle, you know, no one has seen God.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: We can see each other, and that's why we have to love each other.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: If we don't love each other, we can't pretend that we love God.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: How can you say that you love God whom you have not seen if you do not love your brother whom you have seen?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is what St.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: John says.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if we think about that for a moment, what that means is that it's easy for us to fall into the anthropocentric trap.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: If we're with a group of people, we're going to assume that whatever activity we're doing is just a group activity done by man for man, you know, just like any other human activity we do.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so if the liturgy is going to train us, to habituate us, to turn our minds towards the invisible and the eternal and the divine and the transcendent, things that are difficult for our minds to grasp and difficult for us fallen animals, you know, to grasp, then everything about the liturgy has to be decisively and strongly focused on the transcendent and strongly focused on God, who is invisible.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that's why we have to use visible symbols like ad orientum, right?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have to use our bodies and the altar and the architecture of the church, and of course the music, everything sensible, everything perceived by the senses.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have to use it to steer our minds and hearts away from ourselves and from earthly realities to heavenly and divine realities.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the way, this is the way in which odd oriented and helps everyone in the church.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: When I experienced traditional Latin mass, it's re you really felt the reverence and the focus of people to on the altar, on on worshiping God.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: I re I really see the difference between I'm not saying on obus I'm not feeling it in Obus Hordo, but you see really the big difference of it, Doctor Peter.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes and it was a wonderful
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say, because I think that this is very important to say at this point, that the Novus Ordo mask can be done ad orientum.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, this is the this is the little secret that nobody wants you to know.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: That the um the the norms of the novus ordo, the rubrics, presuppose that the priest is not facing the people, but that he's facing ad orientem.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: The the rubrics presuppose that the priest is facing east, facing the altar, because the rubrics say at certain points, the priest turning around says, the Lord be with you, towards the to the people, right?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why would the rubric say, turning around, the priest says, the Lord be with you, if he was already facing them, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the assumption is that he's facing east and that he turns around at certain times to say, Dominus fabiscum, the Lord is with you.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's exactly what happens in the traditional Latin rite as well.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are certain points in the Mass where the priest turns around and he addresses the people, Dominus Swabiscum, and they say, they sing, or the or the servers will say on their behalf, etcum spirituo, right?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the novus or can perfectly well be celebrated uh facing east, everyone facing in the same direction.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it was not, it was launched, if I can put it that way, uh in a different manner.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So Paul VI, when he launched the it's complicated, but when he launched a one of the one of the precursors of the Novus Ordo, that is the 1965 Ordo Misse, which was kind of a halfway house between the Tridentine Rite and the Novus Ordo.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: So in 1965, when he launched that, he celebrated it versus populum, not ad orientum.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly, when the Novus Ordo came in, by that time all of the liturgists, all of the professional liturgists who ran the conferences, the committees, who called all the shots, who wrote all the rules, they all had convinced themselves that to have the priest facing the people was the original early Christian manner of worship.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: They convinced themselves of that, although there were many skeptics even back then, and now, now there's no question that they were wrong.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: But this is the belief that they had, or at least they claimed that this is what they, that this is the reason why they were acting.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and some of them actually didn't care so much about the history.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: They just said, well, now we need something more communal because um, you know, this is this is really it's a fraternal brotherly meal, you know, this is, you know, we're we're all coming together to sh to break bread and to share.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at this kind of horizontal communal version of Christianity, it's very popular among Protestants, that had crept into the Catholic Church as well.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so because of all of these forces, the Novus Ordo from the very first moment was celebrated versus Populum, you know, the priest facing the people pretty much everywhere in the world.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we we nowadays tend to associate the Latin Mass with ad Orientem and the Novus Ordo with Versus Populum.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I just want to point out that that that's not that's those are not necessary connections.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and to speak on the other side, even the Latin Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, was being celebrated versus Populum by certain liturgical reformers in the earlier part of the 20th century, in the 1920s, 1930s, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Against the rubrics.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't supposed to be doing it, but they did it anyhow.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like if you search online, you can find a photo of this famous liturgical, the liturgist named Pius Parsh, he's an Austrian.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can see photos of him celebrating the Latin Mass towards the people.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just pointing out that, you know, this this this this question has a it has a deep history and and and it's you know and and many interesting uh details, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And many faithful Catholics believe we are living through the greatest crisis since the Aryan heresy.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, what in your view is the single deepest root cause of the confusion and loss of our fee today?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, uh I personally I I completely agree with that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think it's ridiculous when people say, oh, the church has been through worse crises before.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, because because the crisis nowadays is a complete comprehensive crisis of apostasy, loss of faith, indifference towards God, um, irreverence towards divine things.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even the Arians were reverent at their false worship, you know.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is to say, every earlier crisis was a crisis about one or two particular points.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: In the Protestant revolt, that was a bigger crisis because it was a revolt on many, many points at the same time.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but our modern crisis is, in a sense, a universal crisis of faith, of reverence, of religion, of meaning, even, I would say.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're we're dealing with a sort of existential fundamental crisis of faith in God, faith in Christ, faith in the church, and um and reception of tradition as such that the church has never ever seen before on this scale and and in this and in this um, let's just say it's a comprehensive crisis.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I agree, I agree this is the worst.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: As for the cause of it, I mean, that is a complicated question.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: It would be very simplistic to say the liturgical reform was the cause of this crisis.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it contributes to the crisis, but it's a symptom of the crisis.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is really the crisis we're dealing with is the crisis of modernity, that is the whole modern age, however you define that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a complicated question, but but some people might date modernity back to the Protestant revolt and to the Renaissance period.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to they might date it back in philosophy to René Descartes and his rationalism.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um others would say, you know, the roots of modernity go all the way back to the era of the Black Death and William of Ockham's nominalism, um, you know, which which completely overthrew the philosophical foundations of of Christian theology.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, there so you can you can define modernity as this very is a this enormous concept that people are always debating about.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: What is modernity?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: What are its essential features and and aspects?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um But I would say to make things to try to answer your question as precisely as possible, wherever you be wherever you start modernity from, modernity is characterized by anthropocentrism, it's characterized by humanism, by making man the center and the measure of all things, by a gradual exclusion of God and the things of faith.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So by a naturalism that excludes the supernatural, it's characterized by a liberalism that excludes the primacy of the good and the common good and God as the ultimate good, um, it's characterized by a rationalism that makes man's puny reason uh into somehow the standard of all truth.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you have these currents, these philosophical currents, which originally start just with philosophers, uh, but eventually percolate in various popular forms throughout all the peoples of the world, so that nowadays a typical modern Western person, he's a liberal, he's a rationalist, he's a naturalist, he doesn't even know where these ideas came from.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: He never chose them, he just is these things.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's just he's been he's like a fish that's been swimming in a in a polluted river, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he simply absorbed all of these errors.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: All of these errors are intrinsically opposed to supernatural religion, to divine revelation, to the worship of God as being the origin and end of ourselves.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think what I would say is that for even for centuries before we got to Vatican II and the liturgical reform, there was already a kind of siege on the Catholic Church.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: There was a uh, you know, the Catholic Church was a bit like a fortress with closed gates that was trying to hold on to the old faith, but the world was just pummeling it, you know, was was was sieging it, besieging it from every side.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what happened during and after Vatican II is that there were some possibly some naive actors in the church, but also possibly some uh conspirators and some um, let's just say uh some some people of questionable faith, maybe even um people of no faith, who who opened up the gates of the church and said, the siege era is over, the era of the Council of Trent, the Counter-Reformation is over.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: We need to stop fighting, we need to lay down our arms, we need to welcome and embrace the modern world while you know discriminating between good and bad things.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: But but they had this general openness to the world policy.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened is the errors and the evils just rushed in at that point.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just rushed in and completely washed away everything.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so the church had been fighting, I think, a rearguard and somewhat feeble battle against modernity for a while.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe not feeble, but just let's let's just say it was a David and Goliath situation.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the church was fighting this battle against modernity.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at a certain point, the the people in charge of the church, churchmen, gave up on that battle.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: They gave up, in a sense, they surrendered.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the liturgical reform was just one among many casualties of having given up that antagonism towards modern errors that that really I think we just have to admit now we can see it more clearly than ever.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: If we are not against the errors of modernity, naturalism, rationalism, liberalism, materialism, um, anthropocentrism, etc., if we're not against these errors, then we will simply be washed away and swept away by them, and there will be nothing left.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the traditional Latin mass, and this is the final thing I'll say, the traditional Latin mass is thoroughly pre-modern.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Everything about it developed before the period of modernity, no matter when you define the beginning of modernity, even if you define it as far back as William of Ockham, the traditional Latin liturgy is completely pre-modern and it's anti-modern because it's theocentric, it's illiberal, it's try it transcends reason and rationalism, it's um it's fully supernatural, it's unafraid of supernatural truths revealed by God.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so in every way it's pre-modern and anti-modern.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this is exactly what makes it so potent right now for us and so appealing to Catholics who are trying to escape from the prison of modernity.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you think, Dr.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, uh also the free ma pre-maçonary infiltration in the church, it is part of it?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's no question about that.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, there are so many studies written of this now.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Of I mean, I'll I'll just give you one example that I happen to be very familiar with.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I published my my publishing house, Osti Press, published a book called The Cristero Counter-Revolution and the Battle for the Soul of Mexico, which goes into great detail, and all of it is footnoted to reputable historians, about how the Freemasons completely took over the government of Mexico and began to persecute the church mercilessly.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they wanted to destroy the church, they wanted to kill every last priest and nun.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they they wanted nothing to remain.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they wanted to treat it as the Romans treated Carthage, you know, and um and the the Freemasons in the United States fully supported them, funded them.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is all documented, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody out there, I'm sorry to say this, but anybody out there who thinks that that we need to stop talking about Freemasons because there is no such thing as a Freemasonic conspiracy, they don't know anything.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: They have never studied history, they have no idea what they're talking about.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: The the Freemasons have been at the heart of every major revolution in the Western world since the time of the French Revolution.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's just the way it is.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I don't, you know, I don't write history, I don't, we don't make up history.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: History is what it is, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's a fact.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so were the Freemasons in involved in plots within the Catholic Church?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Of course they were.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the Catholic Church is the number one enemy of the modern liberal order.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to over if you if you want the the liberty, fraternity, equality in the false meanings that the French Revolution had, if you want those ideas to prevail, you have to overthrow or undermine the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the only barrier to the complete triumph of that version of secularism.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's why the Freemasons have targeted the Catholic Church.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: What is your assessment uh to the impact of the traditionis custodis, Dr.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Peter?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, Traditionis Custodas is a reprehensible document because it is based on lies.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: We know that now.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is, the Pope claims that the majority of the bishops were concerned about Sumorum pontificum and wanted to see it reined in and wanted to see the traditional mass reined in when this is actually not the case.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: The majority of the bishops of the world, as their reports showed, um, were saying Sumorum pontificum was working fine.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: It had diffused the situation, it had brought uh a certain kind of a certain amount of peace to uh to the to the liturgical scene.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so Pope Francis acted unilaterally against the wishes of the worldwide episcopate in overthrowing Sumor and Pontificum and in basically insulting all the bishops of the world by saying, first saying, you're in charge of what happens in your diocese, and then quickly saying afterwards, actually, I didn't really mean that uh it's only Cardinal Roach and the the Dicastri for uh for divine worship that's in charge, because you don't get to decide anything.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was it was a double offense against the bishops, first by lying about their intentions, and then second, by taking away the power that it claimed to give to them.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: So traditionalist custodians, it's it's it's a wretched document.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the great stains on the apostolic see in history, and and it will be seen as such by future historians.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: It will be um it will be kind of like the Dred Scott decision of the United States Supreme Court that authorized slavery.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is it'll it'll have that kind of historical blemish on the on the apostolic see.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that so in terms of what its effect has been, I mean, its effect has been dire.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, uh on the one hand, many bishops have not changed their policies and have continued to allow the traditional mass to to abide in their dioceses.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so, in a sense, if the goal of Tradit Sanus Custodas was eventually to get rid of the traditional mask, that's not happening.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's it it's not going to happen.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but on the other hand, and by the way, that's what we would have expected if most of the bishops were content with some more matificum, that they wouldn't change things drastically.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, most bishops are, you know, they're brought up with, at least a certain generation has been brought up with a kind of ultramontanism where you have to do what the Pope says, whether you, whether you think it's right or wrong, whether you think it's true or false, you have to go along with it, you have to defend it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is a false position.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've written a lot about this.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, they think that that's what they have to do.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so almost every bishop has felt the need to pretend to implement traditions custodes, you know, however much they've actually done so.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what that has meant concretely, and this is the dire aspect, is that many, we have lost many traditional Latin masses.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And in some dioceses, whole communities, communities of hundreds of devout, very active, zealous, faithful have been shattered, shattered.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's it's diabolical, really.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: But they've been shattered by the by the so-called implementation of traditionas custodes.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, because the the bishop just yanks their mass.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: He says, nope, you can't have mass anymore.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you can only have mass in this one remote place, which is hard to get to and isn't big enough for everybody.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so so yes, you still have the mass, but you know, it's no longer what it was before when it was when it existed in many, many different places.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: So really Traditionus Custodas has set has set the church back, I mean, easily 25 years in terms of liturgical peace, in terms of finding a way forward out of the post-consiliary mess.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's set us back easily 25 years.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do think we'll recover from this.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the divine providence is not going to allow something as egregious as Traditions Custodas to, you know, to defeat him.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, to do, but it's still going to be a difficult time until that document is rescinded.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I I was actually heartbroken when I saw these mothers of this uh the priest who celebrating traditional Latin mass went on pilgrims just to make an appeal to Pope Francis.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh very heartbroken when I'm seeing them how they do these sacrifices just for defending the tradition.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're referring to just for the benefit of viewers, you are referring to part three of the part three, yeah, right.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which is that documentary, which if you haven't watched it out there, you've got to you have to watch it.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: All three parts.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's beautifully, beautifully filmed, um, lots of good interviews, lots of solid information you won't be able to get anywhere else.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in part three, it's a trilogy, we we watch these French mothers uh of priests, traditional priests who are affected by traditions custodes.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um they they walk all the way across Europe from Paris to Rome, bringing hundreds of letters from the faithful in which they beg the Pope, beg Pope Francis to reconsider this decision and to and to reverse it.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And they bring all these letters to finally to the Vatican to an audience with the Pope.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's it's also heartbreaking because they they went through so much trouble.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the Pope just meets them for thir for 30 seconds, maybe 20 seconds.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he takes the box of letters and gives it to one of his aides, you know, who probably chucked it into the into the Tiber, you know, or something, like the like the Pachomama, you know.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and and you know, and then it's over, right?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, but the point is God sees their faith, he sees their sacrifice, he will honor it, and he will make it fruitful.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's ultimately not about, I think this is a really important issue.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not fundamentally about the Pope.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a way in which modern Catholicism has become too much about the Pope, almost like a cult of personality.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the Pope is the successor of Peter, of course, but he has a particular role in the church, and so do we.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: We all have the role in the church of receiving the traditional faith, living it, passing it on.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do that, it's because we do that that the Catholic faith thrives.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because of what the Pope says or does that the Catholic faith will thrive ultimately.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: The Pope, he's somebody who is there in a position of final authority if he has to make decisions that nobody else can make.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: But he's not the one who propels the faith forward in every home, every community, every parish around the world.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's our job.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: If we don't do it, nobody's gonna do it, right?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And conversely, when we are faithful, when we do what we're supposed to do, God honors that devotion, he honors that zeal, and he blesses it and he makes it fruitful.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so tradition will revive in the church, whether the Pope cares about it or not, if we care about it and if we live it and if we adhere to it.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Dr.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, looking back with the decades of hindsight, was the post-Vatican II liturgical reform a tragic mistake that has harmed the fate of millions?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, unquestionably, unquestionably.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this this is not something really that can even be debated, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can debate the good intentions of the liturgical reformers, you can say, you know, we're you can look at their scholarly theories, many of which have been proved false now by better scholarship.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can look at, you can evaluate all of these things, but if you look at the concrete results, the aftermath, the fallout, it's been a bloodbath, right?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: The the mass attendance in most countries went from very high to very low within a few years in the in the late 60s and into the early 70s.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, not all of that can be blamed on on the changes in the liturgy, but a lot of it can be.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we know this because we have so many people who said, I mean, this is in writing, I've researched all of this, and I cited in my books.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: So many people who said, I was devastated when these changes took place.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: I could, I couldn't recognize the church anymore.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't recognize the mass.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what was going on, I was scandalized, I stopped going, I lost my faith, or I joined the state of a contests, or who knows what they did.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, there was it unleashed chaos.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: The liturgical reform unleashed chaos, uncertainty, disillusionment, scandal, all of these things.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I would add, yes, there were some people who welcomed it, but those were the tiny percent of people who stayed, right, and who enjoyed it.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: There was a tiny percent of people who stayed and enjoyed the Novus Ordo and everything that they were doing.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: But many, many others just walked away from the confusion and from the mess.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's clear in hindsight that let's even assume, for the sake of argument, that some reforms needed to be made.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's assume that for the sake of argument.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: They any person with common sense would have said these changes have to be made very slowly, very carefully, and step by step over many years, perhaps even decades, right?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: What happened instead was thousands of changes were made in a period of a couple of years, a few years, right?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Basically about five years.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's impossible.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: From a sociological point of view, that is going to be catastrophic for any religion.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Institution to overhaul everything so that in almost every respect, what you were doing before, and in fact what you had been doing for centuries as a as an institution was now unrecognizable.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're doing bears almost no resemblance to what happened before.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's going to be a disaster, no matter what you think about the particular reforms, right?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of, there was a huge lack of human prudence, a huge lack of common sense in the way in which things were done.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I don't even know where this book is right now.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to try to find it on my shelf.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: But uh there's a book by Father Chad Ripiger on the it's a book about the it's a careful study of the virtue of prudence as understood by St.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas Aquinas, applied to the liturgical reforms.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what I think it's called something about like papal infallibility and the liturgy or something.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't, I'm sorry, I can't remember the name.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at Chad Ripiger, it's a book with a black and white cover on it that has a picture of St.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Peter's.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but the point is that he goes through carefully through St.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas' uh analysis of the virtue of prudence and then shows how, in every respect, the liturgical reform was imprudent, that it violated the virtue of prudence.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now, having said that, I will also say I am convinced from my experience and from my study that the reforms did not need to be made.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I wrote a book called Close the Workshop: Why the Old Mass Isn't Broken and the New Mass Can't Be Fixed.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's my my last book on the liturgy.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: That was from the year 2025.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so if if anybody wants to see a full case for why the old liturgy did not need to be reformed and does not need it, and why the new liturgy is broken beyond repair, well, they'll get it in that book.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, why do you think there is such a fierce opposition and even persecuted from many bishop against the revival of the traditional Latin mass?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean this, I think there can be different reasons for different bishops, but I think that I think that the main reason is, or the reason that would apply to the majority of bishops is that they are men of a certain era, of a certain age, of a certain mentality or mindset.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they they are from the generation or maybe right after the generation of people for whom Vatican II was the be-all and end-all event.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was the new Pentecost, the new springtime.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was the you know, God's greatest gift to mankind, essentially.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they they were so convinced of this that it that that they cannot process two facts.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: One fact is that almost everything that was promised has failed to happen.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is, they can't process that everything they thought about Vatican II has failed to pan out.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, that people really want the old traditional things again.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: The things that that these bishops, as young people, were told, or maybe even believed, were out of date, um, needed to be let go of, superseded, over, you know, um, you know, the musty, dusty old things, you know, the lace and the berettas and the maniples and the sodalities and confraternities and the Marian devotions and um, you know, uh the benediction and and you know, all these things that made up old Catholic life before the Council.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the people, the young Turks at the time of the Council, they were all convinced that this was musty and dusty and needed to be needed to be uh thrown out or completely redesigned.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we needed to put something slick, sleek, modern, easily accessible into its place.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this was somehow going to turbocharge the church's uh evangelization of the modern world.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, none of that happened, and people want all the old stuff again, right?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is just the way it is.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anybody who works with young people as I have at the uh at the university level knows this, right?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because we can quickly, if you are open-minded, if you don't have prejudices, if you haven't been habituated to think differently, the old things are beautiful.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: They speak to us.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: We want them.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: We we we have an intuitive sense of their rightness.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is why the church had them for centuries and centuries and centuries, right?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, this is what I think the bishops can't wrap their minds around.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for them, I think you have to realize that for a certain type of for a person of a certain age, Vatican II was everything.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: They have staked their entire lives on this experiment.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's if it's failing, that's the last thing that they want to admit, right?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Think about the enormous humility and even humiliation that would be involved in somebody of a certain generation saying, you know what?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: We were wrong.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: We thought we had the right thing, we thought we were on the cutting edge of the Holy Spirit, and we were wrong.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we now need to humbly undo decades of what we've been doing and go back to the tradition, really.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Not go back to the 1950s.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's advocating that.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can't go back to the 1950s.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: We can't, there's there's no such thing as time travel, but we can take up again the immemorial, venerable Roman tradition and live it again right now in our own times, which is exactly what traditional communities are doing.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about nostalgia, it's about what is beautiful and holy and good and true here and now, what works here and now.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the only question we should be concerned about.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if you can talk to Bunini, what what can you say about him?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: About uh Archbishop Anabale Bunini.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I could talk to him, oh my goodness.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if I I don't know if uh what I was.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think I think that I I don't know what I would say to him.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: I and I hope that I don't have that opportunity.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, well, I don't know.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: I should hope.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: I should I should hope for his salvation, and maybe I will have a chance to talk to him someday.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that I think that he was very much in the mold of the modern age.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you read what he wrote, he had all of those modern prejudices that I've been talking about.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, simpler is better, abbreviated is better, verbal things, more text is better, less silence, less chant.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's he is a he's a cerebral left brain product of Western modernity.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: And everything he did in the liturgical reform and all of the things he promoted were to use the terms of Ian McGilchrist, they were all left brain dominated, every single one of them.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anything to do with mystery, transcendence, uh the irrational, silence, music, all these things meant nothing to him.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: They were opaque to him.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't understand them.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: He thought they were fussy and and obstacles, right?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what we needed was something, you know, simple, clean, clear, vernacular, bauhaus, basically, right?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so he just he just he he missed the boat, right?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: He you know, the the the modern world needed something, as Catherine Pickstock says, the modern world needs something radically unmodern to save it.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what Bunini and his friends gave was something ultra modern, right?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this there's just a basic disconnect here.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for answering that.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: And despite all the challenges, where do you see signs of hope?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I do see signs of hope.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the main sign of hope I see is this.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Joseph Ratzinger, decades ago in the 60s, he said that the church of the future would be a smaller church.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: And probably at the time, what you know, his reasoning for that position is different from what we would say today.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that there was a correct intuition, namely that that for a long time, Christianity, let's just face it, Christianity for a long time has been a kind of veneer, a kind of um a facade, a set of assumptions, of working, operating assumptions that people have because they like to have Sundays off and because they like to be treated decently.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we we got used to in the West, we got used to the fruits of Christianity without really wanting to be Christian, without wanting to be radically Christian, right?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that is only going to last for such for so long.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's like running on the fumes of the gas tank, right?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is the point of Tom Holland and so many other historians now who have said the modern Western world, everything people like about the Western world, you know, freedom and human rights and respect for dignity and you know, equal opportunity and blah, blah, blah, all these things, they all come from Christianity.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're and if you look at places without Christianity, you never find those things, right?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: But but we got them because people believed in Christ and because they lived according to the faith.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Once people stop believing in Christ, once they stop practicing the faith, all of those things will go away, as we've seen, happening more and more, right?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: And people will go literally insane, as the transgender movement shows, as abortion shows.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Abortion can only happen with insane people.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: That is, people who don't see children as goods and as the greatest natural riches that we have.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a form of insanity, right?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so modern Western people, most modern Western people are insane to one degree or another, right?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bit insane or a lot insane.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so Ratzinger was right to say the church of the future will be small because he's thinking there's a kind of cataclysm happening whereby all of the fake Christianity is falling away, the fumes are running out of the gas tank, and all that's going to be left are the really believing Christians, right?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: That I think is true.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: However, what he probably didn't expect is that the really believing Christians, in the end, are going to be the traditional ones, right?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to be the ones who love tradition, who love beauty, who love holiness, who love transcendence and mystery, who love, you know, Gregorian chant and Latin and all of these things, not because they've they have fixated on them, but because all of these are providential tools by which we can enter more deeply into the mystery of Christ.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that experience teaches us.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that the church and her wisdom understood and always guarded and defended and transmitted.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that I see happening among young people everywhere.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Young clergy want tradition, young Catholic faithful want tradition.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: The religious communities that are flourishing are traditional in orientation, whether conservative or explicitly traditional.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all of the liberal institutions are falling apart.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is happening in politics and it's also happening in the church.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a messy process.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish that people could be humble enough and smart enough to recognize what's going on and to embrace the right path without having to go through such a storm and tempest of disaster.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: But it seems like people are very stubborn and they just they're gonna, they're kind of they're gonna bring the disaster and the storm and the catastrophe upon themselves by adhering to false ideas until the bitter end.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: But when all of that is said and done, when everything collapses, what's gonna be left is the traditional remnant.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's gonna be left.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we have to pray and work, um, ask the Lord to give us the grace to be among that traditional remnant.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: We should never assume that we have a ticket to be a part of it, right?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: We should we should pray that we will have the faith and hope and love to be part of that remnant, right?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: That was powerful, uh, Dr.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Peter.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe last question if a young priest or seminarian who decided to celebrate TLM comes to you for advice, what would you tell to them?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say this.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, if you are a Catholic of the Latin rite of the church, then the Roman rite is your birthright, it's your heritage.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: It belongs to you, it's part of your cultural DNA, right?
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that you should not be afraid of.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that you should eagerly learn and study and make a part of your spiritual life.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now you may have to be careful about this, you may have to be prudent.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: You always have to be prudent because that's a cardinal virtue.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you shouldn't necessarily go around with a poster that says, I love Catholic tradition, because in some situations that might get you shot down.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let's just be realistic, right?
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Until there's a thoroughly traditional um sort of counter-revolution in the church, and tradition has not only rights of citizenship, but even simply dominates again, as it will someday, I think 20, 30, 40 years from now.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, until that happens, we have to be, we have to be, as Jesus said, you know, gentle as doves and wise as serpents, right?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: We have to know how to be traditional without advertising it and without asking for trouble, right?
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other advice I would give is this no one can take away from a priest his right to celebrate the traditional Roman rite in private.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to a public liturgy, public liturgy is a different matter.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: A bishop or a religious superior has authority over which church you celebrate in at what time.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there, you know, there's the bishop has oversight over the official, publicly scheduled use of any of the buildings that pertain to his jurisdiction.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: So public liturgy, liturgical schedules are a different matter.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: But privately, on your day off, or on your retreat, or when you're visiting your family, or something like that, you are always free to celebrate the traditional Roman rite.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: And don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you want the evidence for that, I can't give it to you in three seconds.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've written some articles about this.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can contact me through my website, uh, which is peterkwashnevsky.com.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and I will I will lay it all out for you, right?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: So don't be intimidated, don't be scared away by people who who think that they have the authority to prohibit things that they don't actually have the authority to prohibit.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very common problem in the post-Vatican II church.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of runaway authoritarianism that we really need to um prudently resist.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know your insight about this in using electric guitar and drums during Nobus Ordumas.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that's absolutely forbidden, absolutely prohibited by church law.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Even, even by the Novus Ordo's own church laws, such things are forbidden.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if if people want to see all of the citations for that, they can look at my book called Good Music, Sacred Music and Silence, published by Tan Books.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, I've written about this online.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you can you can just do a Google search and put my name, guitars, piano, whatever you want to put in there, you'll you'll you'll probably hit something.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, no, I mean the the even Bunini, okay?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Even Bunini was completely against having guitars and drums and things like that in church because he said this is totally inappropriate for liturgical services.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Liturgical services should be with the organ and with singing, with the human voice, or just the human voice.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's no need for instruments.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can sing to your heart's content.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you should sing high-quality songs.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, you should sing traditional hymns, Gregorian chant, not modern hymns with with with questionable or heretical lyrics.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the point is that yeah, bringing in secular instruments is is is a no-no as far as the church is concerned.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because I see it everywhere in charismatic community, uh they use during mass.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, this this is what this is this is where you have to say, Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: They really don't.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: These these these good people have been completely neglected when it comes to catechesis.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody has explained anything to them about what sacred music is, what is appropriate for the temple of God, what is inappropriate, um, how we should keep secular styles out uh away from the realm of the sacred and why.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody has explained that to them.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't blame them personally, but we still have to be very clear and very bold about saying what's right and what's wrong in this regard.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that, Dr.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: Peter.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: And why you love being Catholic?
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: I love being Catholic because, well, because of two things.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I could probably give 10 reasons, but one is that being Catholic is what gives me my innermost identity as a son of God, as a son in the son, a filius in filio.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that is our fundamental identity, is to be a son of God um and a son of the father.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes to us through the sacraments, it comes to us through baptism, it's deepened in confirmation, it's renewed in holy communion.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine, I can't imagine how people live their lives without the Catholic faith.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's the only thing that gives meaning and coherence to human life, which is otherwise so full of suffering, so full of difficulty, so full of disappointments and sorrows.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way fallen life is.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: The Catholic faith gives us an anchor to hold on to, it gives us a meaning that we can fully embrace and we can be happy, we can find joy in that meaning no matter what's happening.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess one reason is just the Catholic faith illuminates human life.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: It gives meaning to everything.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the second, and the and maybe that's maybe you're not surprised to hear me say that because I'm a philosopher by training.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very interested in looking for the truth.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is the meaning of things?
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second reason is the beauty of the faith.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a composer, I'm a singer, I love, I love music, I love architecture, I love painting, all the sacred arts.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love the beauty of the natural world, I love to hike in the mountains.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, God is the greatest artist, and he has he has given to the Catholic Church, he has poured his spirit of beauty into the Catholic Church.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and this is why Ratzinger once said the two greatest arguments for the Christian faith are the holiness of the saints and the beauty of Christian culture, right?
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna let me let me let me close with that that sentiment.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: That seems like a good place to and what would you like us to pray for you, Dr.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: Peter?
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, just just pray that just pray that the Lord will continue to to bless my apostolate um for tradition, um, and open doors, open many, many doors, you know, so that I can keep reaching the people who need to be reached.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_02: And where can our viewers follow your work, read your books, or find more resources?
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um my website, I'll just make sure that I'm getting this correct.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's Peter Kważnevsky, peterkwarzhnevsky.com.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if you if you type my name into Google, even if you misspell it, it will probably figure out what you're trying to put to put in there.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so Peter Kważnevsky.com, I also run a publishing company called Os Yusti Press, O-S-J-U-S-T-I-U press.com.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can find me on Substack at tradition and sanity.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some places you can find me.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you're right.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when I type your name, it's just automatically pop up.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so it's easy to find you in Google.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much, Dr.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, for this wonderful opportunity.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I I mean the one hour is not enough to uh bas on your wisdom and your knowledge about all the tradition.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: And uh thank you so much uh for this opportunity and learn so much from you and hope to one day if you come to visit in our country to see you in person, and we'd love to hear from you, Dr.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: Peter.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you so much, Adrian, for the opportunity.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_02: And could you close us with a short prayer, Dr.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_02: Peter?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: In nominate patri said filii et spiritual sancti, amen.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Gloria Patri et Fidio et Spiritui Sancto, secut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in sequela seculorum.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much, Dr.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: Peter, and hope to see you again in the future, and God bless, Dr.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: Peter.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to have early access?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: You could be the first to watch the interviews I've done with guests on our program Historian Catholico.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: You can do that, my fellow believers, by joining my Patreon group in conducting interviews with various guests here in the Philippines and abroad.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't been able to edit and upload them right away.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: I still have a lot of backlog because I'm a one-man team.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_02: So most of the time I'm really the one editing.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I edit all the interviews and vlogs on this channel.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: As much as I want to upload them right after the interview, I can't do that because we need to edit and enhance the interview by adding slides and information that are very relevant and will be more helpful to you.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: You can access it by joining my Patreon group.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Once I finish the interview, I immediately upload previews to our Patreon group.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's a recorded interview.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, my fellow believers, by joining our Patreon group, you also help me in our online evangelization.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know what we are doing is not free.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_02: We have costs, what we use, transportation to go to those I interview face to face, etc.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: In due time, I'm planning to build a studio, a home studio.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: The cost is really significant and will be spent here.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, my fellow believers, by joining my Patreon group, you will help me improve and make our online evangelization better and continue further.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: Not only will you get early access, but you will also help me in our online evangelization.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_02: In a way, you will be my partner in doing this.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't have the gifts in what I do, in speaking, interviewing, but you have the capacity to help me in this mission, it will definitely improve.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: Let's partner.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: I will do the inviting, the interviewing, but at the same time, the Lord knows that you helped me and you've been partnering with me in this mission.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, my fellow believers, to join our Patreon group, I will put the link where you can access this Patreon group.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: It has a cost, a small fee, you just need to pay, but the spiritual benefit for you will be overwhelmingly abundant.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: Blessing