Latest / Pod Save America / “Basket of Neanderthals.”

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“Basket of Neanderthals.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:23
Speaker 1: Big show today. We'll be talking about how both parties
0:25
Speaker 1: are handling what is hopefully the final stretch of the pandemic.
0:28
Speaker 1: the fight for voting rights in the states and in Congress,
0:31
Speaker 1: and President Biden's support for a massive union effort in Alabama.
0:35
Speaker 1: Then I'll talk to Ithaca Mayor Savante Myrick about his
0:38
Speaker 1: new proposal that's been called the most radical reimagining of
0:41
Speaker 1: policing in the post-George Floyd era. But first, one very
0:47
Speaker 1: exciting piece of news. Many of you know and love
0:50
Speaker 1: Jason Concepcion from Binge Mode and NBA Desktop. He's now
0:54
Speaker 1: part of the Cricket team, and we can finally tell
0:56
Speaker 1: you what he's been up to Jason will be hosting
0:58
Speaker 1: a brand new sports show called Take Line with former
1:02
Speaker 1: WNBA All-Star and the new co-owner of the Atlanta Dream,
1:05
Speaker 1: Renee Montgomery. It's all about sports, culture, politics, and the
1:09
Speaker 1: intersection of all three. It is fun, fast-paced, thoughtful. Jason
1:13
Speaker 1: and Renee are a fantastic duo. The trailer is out now.
1:17
Speaker 1: Subscribe today so you won't miss the series premiere on
1:19
Speaker 1: March 16th. You can find Take Line on Apple Pods, Spotify,
1:24
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Cool, huh?
1:28
Speaker 2: It's so awesome. I'm so excited for it. I am subscribed.
1:31
Speaker 2: I have hot takes coming for all of these products.
1:34
Speaker 2: Get ready.
1:36
Speaker 1: Perfect. Perfect. Can't wait. All right. Let's get to the news.
1:41
Speaker 1: One year later, the end of the pandemic may finally
1:44
Speaker 1: be in sight and the Biden administration has to do
1:47
Speaker 1: three big things to get us there. First, pass a
1:51
Speaker 1: COVID relief bill that will help fight the virus, fix
1:53
Speaker 1: the economy. Second, vaccinate every American as quickly as possible. Third,
1:59
Speaker 1: avoid another surge of cases while we wait for everyone
2:02
Speaker 1: to get vaccinated. Let's start, Dan, with the American Rescue Plan,
2:05
Speaker 1: which has now moved to the Senate, where Republicans aren't
2:09
Speaker 1: just content opposing the bill. They want to delay the
2:11
Speaker 1: relief as long as possible. Ron Johnson, Wisconsin's biggest dipshit,
2:16
Speaker 1: plans to force the Senate clerks to read the entire
2:20
Speaker 1: bill out loud, which would add another full day to
2:24
Speaker 1: the schedule and do nothing else, basically. Can you detect
2:28
Speaker 1: a strategy there or anywhere in the larger Republican opposition
2:33
Speaker 1: to this extremely popular piece of legislation?
2:36
Speaker 2: I mean, to the extent– I don't know if it's
2:38
Speaker 2: a strategy. It seems mostly like performative assholery. It's just
2:41
Speaker 2: to show– just to be as big a jerk as
2:43
Speaker 2: you possibly can be to no end. It is– I mean,
2:47
Speaker 2: this is interesting. Like we're not surprised that Republicans are
2:51
Speaker 2: opposing what Biden wants to do. This is sort of
2:53
Speaker 2: how they have been for a very long time. So
2:54
Speaker 2: they did when Obama was president. It is interesting that
2:58
Speaker 2: they have picked here to be the place where they
3:00
Speaker 2: were going to demonstrate their opposition. The American Rescue Plan
3:04
Speaker 2: is shockingly popular. It is supported by 70% to 75%
3:08
Speaker 2: of the American people. The more they learn about it,
3:12
Speaker 2: the more they like it. When you think about it,
3:17
Speaker 2: it's getting around 50% of Trump voters like the American
3:22
Speaker 2: Rescue Plan. And 70% of Trump voters think Biden's an
3:26
Speaker 2: illegitimate president. So the fact that people who not only
3:32
Speaker 2: do not like Joe Biden, they think he stole the election,
3:34
Speaker 2: still like his plan and Republicans are picking this plan
3:37
Speaker 2: to sort of signal their opposition.
3:39
Speaker 1: It is also getting more popular the longer we go
3:42
Speaker 1: and the more that people know what's in it. So
3:44
Speaker 1: our friends at Data for Progress ran an experiment where
3:48
Speaker 1: we split the sample. So half the sample of polling
3:52
Speaker 1: respondents were told simply that there were two pandemic relief plans,
3:55
Speaker 1: one that's 1.9 trillion and the other that's 600 billion.
3:59
Speaker 1: That's the one that the Senate Republicans countered with. They
4:03
Speaker 1: were then asked which plan they agreed with more, The
4:07
Speaker 1: other half of the sample was asked the same question,
4:09
Speaker 1: but this time they were shown a chart that outlined
4:11
Speaker 1: the details of both plans. So you showed how much
4:13
Speaker 1: they're spending on vaccination, school reopenings, direct payments, state and
4:17
Speaker 1: local governments. And they had like a chart to compare
4:19
Speaker 1: both plans. That chart was even more effective than the control.
4:24
Speaker 1: On net, voters are 14 points more supportive of the
4:28
Speaker 1: American Rescue Plan when they're shown the chart compared to
4:30
Speaker 1: the baseline. Among Republicans, 34 points more supportive. approval when
4:36
Speaker 1: they actually saw the charts what's in both plan even
4:38
Speaker 1: knowing that there was a 600 billion dollar plan versus 1.9
4:41
Speaker 1: trillion so again and again and again no matter how
4:44
Speaker 1: you do this no matter how what details you explain
4:46
Speaker 1: Ron Johnson can read the whole fucking thing if he
4:48
Speaker 1: wants on the floor but it is the more people
4:52
Speaker 1: learn about it even Republicans and maybe even especially Republicans
4:55
Speaker 1: the more they like it and I.
4:58
Speaker 2: Guess to the extent if you're trying to to understand
5:01
Speaker 2: why they're doing what they're doing. It is pretty typical
5:04
Speaker 2: for a party when they lose an election to try
5:05
Speaker 2: to find a moment of unity. And the Republicans are
5:09
Speaker 2: quite divided. They're divided on the question of whether Trump
5:11
Speaker 2: is a criminal. They're divided on the question of whether
5:13
Speaker 2: and when Mike Pence should be hung. And so this
5:16
Speaker 2: is a place where they can all get together. Every
5:17
Speaker 2: Republican in the House voted against it. Mitch McConnell and
5:21
Speaker 2: John Thune are predicting that every Republican in the Senate
5:23
Speaker 2: will vote against it, including notable moderate, quote unquote, moderates
5:26
Speaker 2: like Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski. And so they're picking
5:30
Speaker 2: this as their place to demonstrate unity. I think that
5:32
Speaker 2: this– and I believe they think they're successfully rerunning the
5:38
Speaker 2: play that worked so well for them in 2009 by
5:40
Speaker 2: opposing the Recovery Act. And I think there are a
5:42
Speaker 2: lot of reasons to think this is a very, very
5:44
Speaker 2: different situation and the results could be very different than–
5:47
Speaker 2: that this is a much different bet than the one
5:48
Speaker 2: they made in 2009.
5:50
Speaker 1: I wonder what Murkowski is going to end up doing
5:52
Speaker 1: because she has not ruled it out yet. She seems
5:56
Speaker 1: American rescue plan curious in a lot of her public statements.
6:00
Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of her shtick always is to
6:03
Speaker 2: be the last person who may not vote no before
6:07
Speaker 2: they generally vote no. I remember working in the Senate
6:13
Speaker 2: for Senator Tom Daschle after we lost the majority in 2002.
6:15
Speaker 2: And People want to be part of the team and
6:19
Speaker 2: there was real efforts to come together to oppose certain
6:22
Speaker 2: things that the Bush administration was doing. I imagine– I
6:25
Speaker 2: mean maybe she will buck the party, but she– to
6:29
Speaker 2: what end, right? It's not clear to me to what
6:31
Speaker 2: end she will do that.
6:34
Speaker 1: So– You know, with Republicans opposed, the only negotiations left
6:37
Speaker 1: are among Democrats. Senate moderates told the president that they
6:41
Speaker 1: wanted the relief in the bill to be more targeted,
6:43
Speaker 1: which means stingier. They asked for a smaller expansion of
6:46
Speaker 1: unemployment benefits, which Biden said no to. And then they
6:50
Speaker 1: asked for a lower income cap for the fourteen hundred
6:52
Speaker 1: dollar checks, which Biden agreed to. So basically, individuals making
6:57
Speaker 1: between 80 and one hundred thousand dollars will no longer
6:59
Speaker 1: get a check. And couples making between $ 160, 000 and $ 200, 000
7:02
Speaker 1: will no longer get a check. So that's 17 million
7:07
Speaker 1: people who got a check from Trump that won't get
7:09
Speaker 1: one from Biden for grand savings of $ 12 billion out
7:13
Speaker 1: of a $ 1. 9 trillion package. Do you have any idea
7:18
Speaker 1: what the moderate Democrats who demanded this got out of
7:21
Speaker 1: the deal?
7:23
Speaker 2: Feel better about themselves? It's so stupid. It is so stupid. stupid.
7:28
Speaker 2: We talk all the time about lessons of 2009, et cetera.
7:32
Speaker 2: But the one that I think is the most important
7:34
Speaker 2: lesson for all Democrats to recognize is err on the
7:36
Speaker 2: side of the strongest economy possible. You're not going to
7:39
Speaker 2: get brownie points for these symbolic displays of fiscal responsibility.
7:47
Speaker 2: And the idea that there are going to be 17
7:48
Speaker 2: million people that Donald Trump sent a check to that
7:51
Speaker 2: Joe Biden doesn't is insane. That is an insane thing.
7:54
Speaker 2: It is so stupid. This is not what the Biden
7:56
Speaker 2: administration wanted to do. This was clearly– it must have been.
7:59
Speaker 2: I think there's relatively limited reporting on this. But it's
8:02
Speaker 2: pretty clear that this was what it took to get,
8:04
Speaker 2: I assume, Joe Manchin and maybe a couple others to
8:08
Speaker 2: be the 50th vote for this bill. It is incredibly stupid.
8:13
Speaker 2: It is not– the overall bill is still an incredibly progressive,
8:17
Speaker 2: important piece of legislation because of– Joe Manchin and others,
8:21
Speaker 2: it will not be as good as it could be.
8:22
Speaker 2: No $ 15 minimum wage, no, you know, the checks being
8:26
Speaker 2: stinger than they should be. The general rule in an
8:28
Speaker 2: economic crisis is err on the side of helping more
8:31
Speaker 2: people rather than fewer. And they made the wrong decision here.
8:35
Speaker 1: Well, it's also, it's one thing if you want to say,
8:37
Speaker 1: we don't want, we want to target this so it
8:39
Speaker 1: doesn't go to the very rich. Like, are you going
8:41
Speaker 1: to go back, going to go back to your, back
8:44
Speaker 1: to your state and say, I really stuck it to
8:45
Speaker 1: people making $ 85, 000 a year? Like, that's not, That's you know,
8:50
Speaker 1: I just don't I don't really understand, even from the
8:53
Speaker 1: moderate Democrat perspective, what you get out of this. I
8:56
Speaker 1: do understand why the Biden administration agreed to it, because
8:59
Speaker 1: as we keep saying, with everything else, you need every
9:01
Speaker 1: single Senate Democrat. You know, you lose Joe Manchin, you
9:04
Speaker 1: lose Kyrsten Sinema, you lose the whole entire bill. So
9:07
Speaker 1: they are held hostage a little bit to or to
9:09
Speaker 1: a great extent, actually, to by these by these Senate moderates.
9:12
Speaker 1: So they had to give in. But I still don't
9:14
Speaker 1: understand why they asked for it or why they wanted
9:16
Speaker 1: it in the first place. I don't know what it
9:17
Speaker 1: gets them. It's dumb. All right. So that's the status
9:20
Speaker 1: of the COVID relief bill. Second big thing the Biden
9:22
Speaker 1: administration needs to do is vaccinate every American as fast
9:24
Speaker 1: as possible. Great news on that front. President announced on
9:28
Speaker 1: Tuesday that he now expects the U.S. to have enough
9:29
Speaker 1: vaccines for everyone who wants one by the end of May.
9:33
Speaker 1: Moving up his previous end of July timeline by two months.
9:37
Speaker 1: The shift is being driven by the agreement that the
9:39
Speaker 1: Biden administration brokered between pharmaceutical giants Johnson & Johnson and Merck.
9:43
Speaker 1: who will now collaborate on vaccine production together. So Dan,
9:48
Speaker 1: it does seem like within a month or two at most,
9:52
Speaker 1: the coverage is going to shift from stories about a
9:54
Speaker 1: lack of supply of vaccine to stories about a lack
9:57
Speaker 1: of demand. There's been a lot of discussion about vaccine
10:00
Speaker 1: hesitancy among communities of color, but a bunch of new
10:03
Speaker 1: polling indicates that vaccine hesitancy is even more strongly correlated
10:07
Speaker 1: with party affiliation. Civics found that 41% of Republicans do
10:11
Speaker 1: not intend to get the vaccine. CBS found that only
10:14
Speaker 1: 42% of Republicans would definitely get or have already gotten
10:17
Speaker 1: the vaccine. What do you think that's all about and
10:19
Speaker 1: what can we do about it given that we need
10:21
Speaker 1: 70% to 80% of all Americans to be vaccinated to
10:25
Speaker 1: actually reach herd immunity and crush this virus?
10:28
Speaker 2: Well, back a few months ago when we had Dan Wagner,
10:31
Speaker 2: who's the head of Civis, a Democratic data firm, on
10:34
Speaker 2: to talk about the polling error in 2020 election, he
10:37
Speaker 2: said to me that there was a high correlation between
10:41
Speaker 2: the Trump voters who were less likely to take public
10:44
Speaker 2: opinion surveys and people who subscribe to anti-vaccine conspiracy theories.
10:48
Speaker 2: And what it is, is it's a question of low
10:50
Speaker 2: social trust. That's where that sort of Venn diagram is.
10:53
Speaker 2: And part of that is that this is true of
10:56
Speaker 2: the population overall, but particularly of Republican voters is they
11:00
Speaker 2: live in hermetically sealed, ideologically homogenous information bubbles. And The
11:07
Speaker 2: typical messengers who help you know to do things like
11:11
Speaker 2: get vaccines have no capacity to influence the conversation there.
11:16
Speaker 2: And so this is actually not super surprising given what
11:20
Speaker 2: we know about the prevalence of conspiracy– of other conspiracy
11:23
Speaker 2: theories in large portions of the Republican base. I mean
11:26
Speaker 2: to this day, upwards of two-thirds of them don't believe
11:28
Speaker 2: Barack Obama was born in America and a whole bunch
11:30
Speaker 2: of other things. The question is, can you find people
11:33
Speaker 2: who are trusted in this low trust community and tell
11:37
Speaker 2: them about the value and importance of taking the vaccine?
11:40
Speaker 3: Yeah.
11:41
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, to that end, we found
11:43
Speaker 1: out the other day that Donald Trump and Melania Trump
11:47
Speaker 1: actually did get the vaccine before they left the White
11:51
Speaker 1: House and just decided not to tell anyone. That would
11:56
Speaker 1: have been pretty helpful for Donald Trump to publicly get
11:59
Speaker 1: the vaccine and encourage everyone else to. There was like
12:01
Speaker 1: a line in his CPAC speech slipped in where he
12:04
Speaker 1: told everyone to go get their shots. But you couldn't
12:07
Speaker 1: really pick it out because he was just screaming out
12:11
Speaker 1: the names of Republicans who impeached him. So you might
12:13
Speaker 1: have missed that line about the vaccination. But it does
12:15
Speaker 1: seem like I mean, because we've had we started off
12:18
Speaker 1: with supply issues. It seems like we don't yet have
12:21
Speaker 1: sort of the full force of a public service announcement
12:24
Speaker 1: campaign from the White House or from celebrities or athletes or.
12:30
Speaker 1: musicians or everyone, everyone you might think would sort of
12:33
Speaker 1: participate in that kind of campaign. And I think it
12:36
Speaker 1: is important to realize that we, we don't just need
12:38
Speaker 1: that for people, you know, who were Democrats or who
12:42
Speaker 1: vote for Joe Biden, but we need that for Trump
12:44
Speaker 1: voters too. And we do need people in that, in
12:46
Speaker 1: that community to, to, to talk about the, talk about
12:49
Speaker 1: the benefits of getting the vaccine. I just heard like
12:51
Speaker 1: anecdotally in a lot of, even in a lot of
12:54
Speaker 1: red counties in California, there are a ton of vaccine
12:58
Speaker 1: appointments open. Because like the redder the place, the more
13:01
Speaker 1: hesitant people are to go get the vaccine.
13:03
Speaker 2: I mean, this is like there is a commercial that
13:05
Speaker 2: runs every time you turn on a game on NBA
13:09
Speaker 2: League Pass that is Bill Russell, Celtics legend, getting the vaccine.
13:14
Speaker 2: And what's striking about that is. It's the same commercial
13:17
Speaker 2: every time you switch in between games. So you can
13:20
Speaker 2: see it like 10 times a night. But there's so
13:24
Speaker 2: little of that happening elsewhere in media, right? You're not
13:28
Speaker 2: seeing other people who are within the categories, either by
13:33
Speaker 2: age or by freshen or pre-existing conditions that would get
13:36
Speaker 2: the vaccine. You're not seeing that. In a normal role
13:38
Speaker 2: with a normal former president, he would be doing a
13:41
Speaker 2: public service. He would go to the White House. speak
13:44
Speaker 2: from the Rose Garden about the vaccine, right? You would
13:47
Speaker 2: see all the former presidents would get together and do this.
13:49
Speaker 2: That's not happening because of Trump. And it's interesting because
13:54
Speaker 2: the development of the vaccine is something that Trump could
13:57
Speaker 2: take some credit for. He was president when Operation Warp
14:01
Speaker 2: Speed happened. He was president as it was developed. He's
14:05
Speaker 2: also responsible for why it's been so hard to distribute.
14:07
Speaker 2: But his problem is is Trump isn't really a leader
14:11
Speaker 2: in the traditional sense. Like he, you know, we talk
14:12
Speaker 2: all the time, he's the leader of the MAGA movement,
14:14
Speaker 2: but he isn't a leader. He sort of asks his
14:16
Speaker 2: followers where they're going and then he just gets to
14:18
Speaker 2: the front of the line. And because they are anti-vax,
14:21
Speaker 2: he is not touting the vaccine that he helped play
14:24
Speaker 2: some role in getting developed and got himself. And so
14:27
Speaker 2: it's creating this feedback where his supporters are not getting
14:30
Speaker 2: the vaccine because he won't tell them because his supporters
14:32
Speaker 2: are not getting the vaccine.
14:36
Speaker 1: Also, because he doesn't give a shit about his supporters.
14:37
Speaker 1: He only gives a shit about himself. That's the thing is,
14:40
Speaker 1: this would be an.
14:41
Speaker 2: Opportunity to take credit, right? To like, this is an
14:45
Speaker 2: actual achievement.
14:46
Speaker 1: I mean, I also think that's why Biden has been,
14:49
Speaker 1: you know, very careful not to politicize the vaccine or
14:51
Speaker 1: criticize Trump too much. Or even when they talk about
14:53
Speaker 1: how there wasn't much of a vaccination campaign plan nationally
14:59
Speaker 1: when they got to the White House, you know, states
15:00
Speaker 1: were doing their thing. They've been careful to sort of
15:03
Speaker 1: criticize Trump too directly on that because I think they
15:05
Speaker 1: want to make sure that Trump supporters get the vaccine
15:08
Speaker 1: as well. I think that probably could go as far as,
15:11
Speaker 1: you know, the Biden administration giving Trump some credit for
15:15
Speaker 1: Operation Warp Speed, at least on the development side, not
15:17
Speaker 1: necessarily the vaccination campaign. So, of course, you know, Republicans
15:22
Speaker 1: aren't just more likely to be anti-vax, but anti-mask. This week,
15:26
Speaker 1: the governors of Mississippi and Texas made the Biden administration's
15:29
Speaker 1: goal of avoiding another surge in cases. more difficult by
15:32
Speaker 1: announcing they're lifting all statewide mask mandates and allowing all
15:35
Speaker 1: businesses to operate at full capacity. CDC guidance be damned.
15:41
Speaker 1: Here was Biden's response to this.
15:43
Speaker 4: We are on the cusp of being able to fundamentally
15:47
Speaker 4: change the nature of this disease because of the way
15:50
Speaker 4: in which we're able to get vaccines in people's arms.
15:52
Speaker 4: We've been able to move that all the way up
15:55
Speaker 4: to the end of May to have enough for every
15:57
Speaker 4: adult American to get a shot.
16:01
Speaker 5: And the last thing, the last thing.
16:03
Speaker 4: We need is Neanderthal thinking that in the meantime, everything's fine.
16:07
Speaker 3: Take off your mask.
16:08
Speaker 5: Forget it. It still matters.
16:11
Speaker 1: So Neanderthal was, of course, trending on Twitter all day yesterday.
16:15
Speaker 1: Republicans are, of course, jumping on this. What else can
16:21
Speaker 1: President Biden actually do besides criticize governors for lifting restrictions?
16:27
Speaker 2: Very, very little, right? He can continue to use bully
16:32
Speaker 2: pulpit to communicate with the people in that state, right?
16:36
Speaker 2: Just because Governor Abbott takes the mask mandate away doesn't
16:39
Speaker 2: mean that other Texans have to stop wearing a mask, right?
16:43
Speaker 2: And so it's not just about criticizing them. It is
16:45
Speaker 2: about public health messaging to the people in that state
16:48
Speaker 2: about what they are supposed to do. But this has
16:52
Speaker 2: been the problem from the very beginning is President Biden is,
16:56
Speaker 2: in some cases, at the mercy of deeply irresponsible state
17:00
Speaker 2: and local officials who will do whatever they want. And
17:03
Speaker 2: because there are not walls built up around Texas, perhaps
17:05
Speaker 2: to the chagrin of some in Texas, people from Texas,
17:09
Speaker 2: the spread could go up there and then those people
17:12
Speaker 2: will go elsewhere. They will visit places, they will travel
17:15
Speaker 2: and bring that higher infection rate to other parts of
17:18
Speaker 2: the country.
17:20
Speaker 1: It is a tough challenge for the Biden administration too,
17:23
Speaker 1: because we are in this, and I think March especially
17:25
Speaker 1: will be like this, maybe some of April, this in-between time,
17:29
Speaker 1: where a critical mass of people aren't vaccinated just yet,
17:35
Speaker 1: but it's coming. Cases have fallen. We've sort of plateaued
17:40
Speaker 1: a little bit, and it's still a pretty high level, 60,000
17:44
Speaker 1: cases a day. It may seem like it's a lot better.
17:47
Speaker 1: which it is. It's much better than it was in
17:50
Speaker 1: December and January. And it seems like the end is
17:53
Speaker 1: in sight because the vaccinations are coming. So you might
17:56
Speaker 1: have a lot of people who say, oh, well, Texas
17:58
Speaker 1: lifted the mandates. Yeah, vaccine's coming soon. Everything's great. Let's party.
18:03
Speaker 1: And it's tough because we're not yet at that critical
18:06
Speaker 1: mass of Americans vaccinated that we can really breathe easy.
18:10
Speaker 1: So I think it's not just how to deal with
18:12
Speaker 1: people like Abbott in Texas who are just lifting all mandates.
18:16
Speaker 1: It's how the Biden administration and their public health officials
18:19
Speaker 1: sort of communicate to the rest of the country that
18:22
Speaker 1: the end is in sight and that there is a
18:26
Speaker 1: much better hopeful future out there if you go get vaccinated,
18:29
Speaker 1: but that you still have to have some common sense
18:31
Speaker 1: precautions when you're out in public, at least for the
18:33
Speaker 1: time being. Yeah.
18:34
Speaker 2: I think that is so important because you hear all
18:36
Speaker 2: the time, get the vaccine, then you're still going to
18:38
Speaker 2: have to wear masks and you're going to have to
18:39
Speaker 2: do this, you're going to have to do that. And
18:40
Speaker 2: it feels like life is never going to return to normal.
18:44
Speaker 2: We're never going to be able to go see our
18:45
Speaker 2: friends or our parents.
18:46
Speaker 1: That's a huge problem because that's a problem for like,
18:49
Speaker 1: if you, we really want everyone to get vaccinated, you
18:52
Speaker 1: need to give them a hopeful reason to get vaccinated.
18:55
Speaker 2: We can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
18:57
Speaker 2: And so just stay on the train for a few
19:00
Speaker 2: more months. And then we are going to be in
19:02
Speaker 2: a much better place. But you know, the other thing
19:04
Speaker 2: about this interest about Texas is I didn't realize this,
19:06
Speaker 2: but when I was reading about why Abbott did this,
19:10
Speaker 2: Did you know that Abbott is sort of under assault
19:11
Speaker 2: in his state from the right for being too responsible?
19:16
Speaker 1: No, I didn't.
19:16
Speaker 2: Yes, it's Alan West who is the chair of the
19:18
Speaker 2: Republican Party. There's another woman who was arrested for opening
19:23
Speaker 2: her beauty salon in contravention. So this says so much
19:29
Speaker 2: about modern Republican politics. It's Greg Abbott, one of the
19:31
Speaker 2: least responsible people in all of America is under attack
19:34
Speaker 2: for being too responsible on COVID.
19:36
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:37
Speaker 1: I mean, you also you hear this all the time
19:38
Speaker 1: from public health officials. It's not just an on or
19:41
Speaker 1: off switch. You know, I asked Dr. Fauci when I
19:45
Speaker 1: interviewed him the other week, you know, what did he
19:47
Speaker 1: think about California sort of lifting some of the restrictions?
19:50
Speaker 1: a month ago? You know, Newsom and some of the
19:53
Speaker 1: local officials got criticized because they said, okay, we're going
19:56
Speaker 1: to open outdoor dining again. And we're going to open
19:59
Speaker 1: some indoor stuff at a lower capacity. And now we're
20:03
Speaker 1: going to have this surge again. Well, they did that.
20:05
Speaker 1: We didn't have the surge. In fact, we're at our
20:07
Speaker 1: lowest level ever right now, or we're on our way
20:10
Speaker 1: to our lowest level ever. And it's interesting because Fauci said, look,
20:14
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it was necessarily a bad
20:16
Speaker 1: idea to reopen outdoor dining as long as you don't
20:19
Speaker 1: open indoor dining.
20:20
Speaker 3: Right.
20:20
Speaker 1: So like there are it doesn't have to be everyone
20:23
Speaker 1: locked down or everything open. And I do think that
20:25
Speaker 1: the Biden administration and Biden as a candidate was like this, too,
20:28
Speaker 1: was very effective at trying to sort of stake out
20:30
Speaker 1: that middle ground where you tell people to take all
20:33
Speaker 1: kinds of precautions. But you also make sure that everyone
20:35
Speaker 1: knows that, like, there are some things you can do
20:37
Speaker 1: and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
20:48
Speaker 1: All right, let's discuss what to do about the Republican
20:51
Speaker 1: assault on the right to vote. As of a few
20:53
Speaker 1: weeks ago, the Brennan Center for Justice counts 253 bills
20:57
Speaker 1: across 43 states that would restrict access to voting. With
21:01
Speaker 1: Arizona and Georgia leading the way, the two states Democrats
21:04
Speaker 1: flipped for the first time in decades in November. Republicans
21:08
Speaker 1: in these states are trying to prevent things like automatic
21:10
Speaker 1: voter registration, same-day voter registration, early voting, absentee voting, and
21:15
Speaker 1: collecting absentee ballots for others, among other measures. The best
21:19
Speaker 1: and maybe only way to stop this voter suppression is H.R. 1,
21:24
Speaker 1: the For the People Act, which the House passed Wednesday
21:26
Speaker 1: night with no Republican votes. The bill would require states
21:29
Speaker 1: to offer automatic registration, early voting, and absentee voting. It
21:33
Speaker 1: would also prevent partisan gerrymandering through nonpartisan voting. redistricting commissions,
21:37
Speaker 1: and it would institute new campaign finance and ethics reforms.
21:41
Speaker 1: First question, how worried should people be about these voter
21:45
Speaker 1: suppression laws that are being pushed in the states right now?
21:49
Speaker 1: How much of an effect could these laws plus redistricting
21:52
Speaker 1: have on the next election and future elections?
21:55
Speaker 2: People should be scared shitless about this. That's probably not
21:59
Speaker 2: a hopeful, hopeful message, but that is the reality. Think
22:02
Speaker 2: about how narrow the margins were in Georgia and Arizona. Now,
22:06
Speaker 2: imagine if you made it much, much harder for black
22:11
Speaker 2: and brown and young voters, the core of the Democratic
22:13
Speaker 2: base to vote, which is what these laws are designed
22:15
Speaker 2: to do. Dave Wasserman, who is an expert in redistricting
22:19
Speaker 2: to the point where his Twitter handle is at redistrict,
22:21
Speaker 2: has said the Republicans could get the seats they need
22:24
Speaker 2: to take the majority simply through redistricting without even having
22:27
Speaker 2: to flip another seat. And so this is the ballgame.
22:31
Speaker 2: And it's not just the ballgame for 2022. It's the
22:33
Speaker 2: ballgame for the next decade. That is what is at
22:36
Speaker 2: stake here, if not longer, in Democratic politics.
22:41
Speaker 1: That's important to recognize, too, that this is a problem
22:44
Speaker 1: that snowballs. So that if because of partisan redistricting, Republicans
22:50
Speaker 1: are able to take back the House, then now that
22:53
Speaker 1: they're in control of the House— Then you get to
22:56
Speaker 1: 2024 and a lot of these state voting restrictions are
23:00
Speaker 1: in place. And suddenly now on the presidential level, in
23:04
Speaker 1: the presidential race, in these swing states, now it's easier
23:07
Speaker 1: for Republicans to win in 2024 if they take control
23:10
Speaker 1: of all of the House, the Senate and the White
23:12
Speaker 1: House in 2024. Suddenly there are laws they can pass
23:17
Speaker 1: in Congress that would basically make these state level voter
23:21
Speaker 1: restrictions national. And so then even in blue states that
23:25
Speaker 1: have had more expansive access to voting, you would have
23:28
Speaker 1: some of these laws as well. And Ron Brownstein sort
23:30
Speaker 1: of points this out in his column this week. Rick
23:33
Speaker 1: Scott has a couple of bills to do this. So
23:35
Speaker 1: like you, if we don't stop this train now, we
23:38
Speaker 1: have a very small window while we have a majority
23:41
Speaker 1: in the Senate, majority in the House and a Democratic
23:44
Speaker 1: president to vote. not only expand voting rights, but just
23:47
Speaker 1: to protect the voting rights we have. And if that
23:50
Speaker 1: window closes, and it will close before the 2022 midterms,
23:55
Speaker 1: it could be closed for a decade or even more.
23:58
Speaker 1: And that is not an exaggeration, right? Yeah.
24:01
Speaker 2: I mean, there is a reason Crooked Media calls it
24:03
Speaker 2: past HR1 or we're fucked, because we can't, it's just,
24:08
Speaker 2: you cannot overstate the consequences of this. It is a gigantic...
24:13
Speaker 2: And it's not just to the Democratic Party, which it is.
24:18
Speaker 2: It is to democracy itself because you have two forces
24:22
Speaker 2: having the same time in this country. The overall American
24:26
Speaker 2: population is getting more progressive, more diverse. Yet political power
24:32
Speaker 2: is shifting towards a shrinking, mostly white conservative minority. So
24:37
Speaker 2: that– Democracies do not survive that level of tension when
24:42
Speaker 2: the population gets locked out of power despite having the
24:45
Speaker 2: votes to have that power. And that is what is happening.
24:49
Speaker 2: And it is going to get, as you point out,
24:51
Speaker 2: so much worse. This is not one election. This is
24:55
Speaker 2: not whether we can pass some bill this year or
24:57
Speaker 2: next year. This is the very fate of our democracy
24:59
Speaker 2: before us.
25:01
Speaker 1: And, you know, David Shore, who's a data analyst, did
25:06
Speaker 1: a long interview with– Eric Levitz in New York Magazine
25:09
Speaker 1: this week. And David is usually on the more pessimistic
25:12
Speaker 1: side about Democrats' chances to hold the House in 2022.
25:17
Speaker 1: And he said that if we passed H.R. 1 and we,
25:22
Speaker 1: you know, changed it to nonpartisan redistricting and added, you know, D.C.
25:26
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico as states, that alone would increase our
25:29
Speaker 1: chance of winning the House or keeping the House in
25:32
Speaker 1: 2022 by a factor of three, three times more likely
25:35
Speaker 1: to win. And that's from a baseline where he thinks
25:38
Speaker 1: we're like doomed.
25:40
Speaker 2: Yes, that's his exact word is doomed. That is how
25:42
Speaker 2: he describes it.
25:44
Speaker 3: Yeah.
25:44
Speaker 1: And he thinks if we don't, you know, if we
25:46
Speaker 1: don't pass this, then it becomes, you know, of course,
25:48
Speaker 1: it depends on what Joe Biden's approval rating is. which
25:52
Speaker 1: to a large part determines how midterm elections go. But
25:55
Speaker 1: just because of, again, just because of redistricting and what
25:58
Speaker 1: Republicans will be able to do with redistricting, if there
26:02
Speaker 1: is no HR1 passed, they could make up the number
26:05
Speaker 1: of seats they need to flip the House through redistricting
26:09
Speaker 1: alone before we get to any elections. Forget all about
26:13
Speaker 1: even the voter restrictions, just the districts. It will end
26:17
Speaker 1: up sticking House Democrats in who are in competitive districts
26:21
Speaker 1: into districts that are like Trump plus 10. That's an
26:24
Speaker 1: example of what happens through drawing the maps again. And
26:28
Speaker 1: so your Democratic representative who you thought were safe, who
26:30
Speaker 1: didn't really have a competitive race, suddenly is the underdog
26:34
Speaker 1: just because of redistricting. That's how important this is. So
26:37
Speaker 1: let's talk about how to fix this.
26:40
Speaker 4: H.R.
26:40
Speaker 1: 1 passes the House. Now it goes to the Senate.
26:43
Speaker 1: This week, a reporter asked Joe Manchin if he would
26:46
Speaker 1: ever reconsider his opposition to getting rid of the filibuster.
26:50
Speaker 1: And this was his quote. Never. Jesus Christ, what don't
26:54
Speaker 1: you understand about never? So you're saying there's a chance.
26:58
Speaker 2: Is there a video of this? Did he wink? Is
27:02
Speaker 2: there a perceptible wink there as he said that?
27:06
Speaker 1: So what do we do here? How does every discussion
27:11
Speaker 1: about policy not end up in the fucking Joe Manchin cul-de-sac?
27:16
Speaker 1: How do we prevent democracy reform and I guess democracy
27:19
Speaker 1: itself from dying a slow death in the Senate?
27:23
Speaker 2: I think one of the challenges... for this is that
27:26
Speaker 2: it's very easy to become defeatist because of Joe Manchin
27:31
Speaker 2: and to say, well, does it, he said, never, he said,
27:34
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, don't you know what never means or whatever
27:36
Speaker 2: it is. And then, so why are we even bothering?
27:39
Speaker 2: And that working backwards from a, a assumed defeat is
27:43
Speaker 2: how change never happens. Like there are some things we
27:46
Speaker 2: have to do first. The first and most important thing
27:48
Speaker 2: we talked about this a little bit on a recent
27:49
Speaker 2: pod is When we did that poll with Change Research,
27:53
Speaker 2: the most recent polar coaster, the thing we found was
27:56
Speaker 2: Democrats and Republicans and everyone loves the elements of H.R. 1,
28:01
Speaker 2: the For the People Act. Democrats liked it, but there
28:04
Speaker 2: was very little urgency behind it. So step one is
28:06
Speaker 2: simply we have to increase the urgency. We cannot expect
28:10
Speaker 2: senators who change their position on this bill or on
28:14
Speaker 2: Senate traditions or norms if the Democratic voters do not
28:18
Speaker 2: express urgency. It does not become a high priority. That
28:21
Speaker 2: is step one. And you can worry, you know, Adam Jentleson,
28:24
Speaker 2: who's a former Senate aide and a very strong opponent
28:27
Speaker 2: of the filibuster, said that Joe Manchin is an Act
28:30
Speaker 2: III problem and we're still in Act I. And act
28:32
Speaker 2: one is we have to build momentum for this bill.
28:34
Speaker 2: So let's do that right now. There is time to
28:36
Speaker 2: do that. The House passed it. The Senate is very slow,
28:40
Speaker 2: in part because Ron Johnson must read every word of
28:44
Speaker 2: the bill before we even get to this bill. So
28:46
Speaker 2: there's work to do right now to change Joe Manchin's mind.
28:49
Speaker 2: And I will just say for everyone who says there
28:51
Speaker 2: is no hope, I was around in 2013 when every Democrat,
28:57
Speaker 2: including Harry Reid, said they would never get rid of
29:00
Speaker 2: the filibuster for judicial nominations and presidential appointments. And then
29:05
Speaker 2: Mitch McConnell decided that he was going to block Barack
29:07
Speaker 2: Obama's EPA administrator and labor secretary. And would basically shrink
29:14
Speaker 2: the second most important court in the land to prevent
29:16
Speaker 2: Obama from getting any appointments on there. And everyone changed
29:19
Speaker 2: their mind and voted for it. So there is precedent
29:21
Speaker 2: here for people saying never. And then when it's no
29:23
Speaker 2: longer a theoretical discussion of norms and traditions, it is
29:27
Speaker 2: about the specific blocking of specific things, people's minds change.
29:30
Speaker 2: And so that we have to get to that point.
29:33
Speaker 2: So we can't quit now.
29:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to make it
29:37
Speaker 1: clear that this is the most important piece of voting
29:40
Speaker 1: rights legislation since the Voting Rights Act in 1965. This
29:43
Speaker 1: is the civil rights issue of our generation. Like, I
29:47
Speaker 1: think we the first step here is to really amp up.
29:51
Speaker 1: both the importance of the legislation and sort of the
29:55
Speaker 1: extent of the threat that we're facing in states like
29:58
Speaker 1: Arizona and Georgia and from a partisan redistricting process because
30:02
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people understand that yet.
30:04
Speaker 1: Everyone should go to votesaveamerica.com slash for the people to
30:07
Speaker 1: learn more about the bill, what's in the bill, and
30:10
Speaker 1: also gives you tools to connect with your representatives so
30:13
Speaker 1: you can start calling Congress because what we need to
30:15
Speaker 1: avoid more than anything is it passes the House, it
30:18
Speaker 1: gets to the Senate, Joe Manchin says something like, I
30:21
Speaker 1: don't think I'm into this. And then it's not talked
30:24
Speaker 1: about again or covered again because people are just counting that, oh,
30:27
Speaker 1: we don't have enough votes. And so that's that. Democrats,
30:30
Speaker 1: starting with Joe Biden on down, need to make this
30:32
Speaker 1: the big fight after COVID relief has passed and talk
30:36
Speaker 1: about it all the time.
30:37
Speaker 2: And then the last thing about this I think is
30:39
Speaker 2: important is we have to connect this to all the
30:42
Speaker 2: other fights. If you care about climate change, if you
30:45
Speaker 2: care about civil rights, reproductive rights, workers' rights, health care,
30:50
Speaker 2: any of those things, it depends on this. Because our
30:52
Speaker 2: opportunity to do those things, to make progress on the
30:55
Speaker 2: things we care about, that in many cases, the majority
30:58
Speaker 2: of the American people support, it depends on having a
31:00
Speaker 2: functioning democracy. We will be locked out of power until
31:03
Speaker 2: the planet melts if we do not pass this bill.
31:06
Speaker 1: That's right. Well said.
31:08
Speaker 2: All right.
31:08
Speaker 1: Let's talk about a progressive and fairly historic action that
31:11
Speaker 1: the president took without Joe Manchin and the rest of Congress.
31:15
Speaker 1: The White House released a video on Sunday in which
31:17
Speaker 1: Joe Biden offered his support for the right of workers
31:19
Speaker 1: at an Amazon facility in Alabama to unionize, quote, without
31:22
Speaker 1: intimidation or threats by employers. This would be the first
31:26
Speaker 1: Amazon warehouse to be unionized anywhere in the United States.
31:29
Speaker 1: The voting period will run through March 29th. Let's listen
31:32
Speaker 1: to some of Biden's video.
31:33
Speaker 5: I have long said America wasn't built by Wall Street.
31:36
Speaker 5: It was built by the middle class, and unions built
31:39
Speaker 5: the middle class. Unions put power in the hands of workers.
31:44
Speaker 5: They level the playing field. They give you a stronger
31:47
Speaker 5: voice for your health, your safety, higher wages, protections from
31:52
Speaker 5: racial discrimination and sexual harassment. Unions lift up workers, both
31:57
Speaker 5: union and non-union, and especially black and brown workers. I've
32:01
Speaker 5: made it clear. I made it clear when I was
32:03
Speaker 5: running that my administration's policy would be to support unions
32:08
Speaker 5: organizing and the right to collectively bargain. I'm keeping that promise.
32:14
Speaker 5: So let me be really clear. It's not up to
32:17
Speaker 5: me to decide whether anyone should join a union. But
32:20
Speaker 5: let me be even more clear. It's not up to
32:23
Speaker 5: an employer to decide that either. The choice to join
32:27
Speaker 5: a union is up to the workers, full stop.
32:33
Speaker 1: So Dan, the president didn't explicitly endorse the unionization effort
32:36
Speaker 1: itself or call out Amazon by name, but the labor
32:40
Speaker 1: movement is thrilled and historians are saying it was the
32:42
Speaker 1: most pro-union message that's come from a president since FDR
32:46
Speaker 1: Harry Truman. Pick your president from a century ago. Why
32:50
Speaker 1: was Biden's video such a big deal?
32:53
Speaker 2: It represents, I think, a changing of the politics that
32:57
Speaker 2: is born of a changing of the economy. you say
33:01
Speaker 2: it's been since Truman or FDR, and union membership has
33:05
Speaker 2: been on a steady decline in recent decades as power
33:08
Speaker 2: has been concentrated among large corporations and the wealthy. And
33:11
Speaker 2: there is a real connection to both that decline in
33:15
Speaker 2: union membership and the overall political power and economic power
33:19
Speaker 2: of unions and a rise in economic inequality. And that
33:23
Speaker 2: has been particularly true in the middle of this pandemic
33:24
Speaker 2: where workers are being exposed to, in many cases, life-threatening situations,
33:29
Speaker 2: whether it's at these poultry plants and meatpacking plants in
33:32
Speaker 2: South Dakota and the upper Midwest. And so Biden's stepping
33:36
Speaker 2: up here and speaking at this moment, although he did,
33:38
Speaker 2: as you say, he did not mention Amazon. Amazon is
33:41
Speaker 2: the biggest company in the world. It is the preeminent
33:43
Speaker 2: sort of avatar for this level of corporate concentration and power.
33:48
Speaker 2: And to speak up about this so early in his
33:50
Speaker 2: presidency is a gigantic deal.
33:53
Speaker 1: Why do you think he did it? Why do you
33:54
Speaker 1: think he chose to step in on this specific organizing drive?
33:58
Speaker 2: I think he, you know, what was a really, I think,
34:02
Speaker 2: encouraging sign is that labor issues and proposals to help
34:08
Speaker 2: collective bargaining and the strength of workers in this country
34:11
Speaker 2: were kind of at the center of our primary. Bernie
34:13
Speaker 2: Sanders and Elizabeth Warren both had hugely progressive plans. All
34:17
Speaker 2: of the candidates endorsed and in some way, shape, or form,
34:19
Speaker 2: I believe, marched with the McDonald's workers fighting for $ 15
34:23
Speaker 2: minimum wage. There's just the support behind $ 15 minimum wage.
34:28
Speaker 2: And so sort of bringing that into the White House
34:30
Speaker 2: to recognize that that must be an important part of our,
34:35
Speaker 2: not just our political strategy, but our economic strategy is
34:37
Speaker 2: strengthening these unions is, you know, and following through on
34:41
Speaker 2: that is really important. And it is, you know, and
34:44
Speaker 2: I think that's also Biden to his credit has been very,
34:46
Speaker 2: you know, Closely associated, he was often the liaison with
34:52
Speaker 2: a lot of the unions in the White House when
34:53
Speaker 2: we were there because of the long relationships he had
34:55
Speaker 2: over the years. So it's consistent with what he's done.
34:58
Speaker 2: It's a recognition of the change in politics and the
34:59
Speaker 2: economy and following through on campaign promises.
35:04
Speaker 1: It's also this specific drive with this specific company as well.
35:08
Speaker 1: I mean, Amazon is the nation's second largest employer. They
35:13
Speaker 1: have not been unionized in the United States yet. The
35:15
Speaker 1: last attempt, I think, was in 2014 in Delaware, and
35:18
Speaker 1: it failed. Many Amazon warehouses in Europe are unionized. So
35:24
Speaker 1: in other parts of the world, there are unions around Amazon,
35:27
Speaker 1: but they have prevented unionization here in the United States.
35:30
Speaker 1: During this drive, Amazon has been disparaging the union. They
35:35
Speaker 1: asked the National Labor Relations Board to force workers to
35:39
Speaker 1: vote in person during the pandemic. This union, they have
35:42
Speaker 1: been putting up flyers in break rooms, scheduling mandatory meetings
35:46
Speaker 1: where they talk about why the union's bad. Amazon is
35:49
Speaker 1: certainly bringing to bear all of its power here. And
35:52
Speaker 1: I do think if the workers in Alabama win and
35:56
Speaker 1: they form a union, not only will other Amazon employees
36:00
Speaker 1: all over the country, you know, as the second largest employer,
36:03
Speaker 1: start looking around and thinking, okay, now we can form
36:06
Speaker 1: a union too. But other industries, you know, this is
36:09
Speaker 1: the retail, wholesale, and department store union. Other workers in
36:12
Speaker 1: that industry will look and turn around and say, okay,
36:15
Speaker 1: they did it in Alabama. We can do it here.
36:17
Speaker 1: And Biden noted this in his video too. Most of the,
36:21
Speaker 1: I think something like 80 plus percent of the workers
36:24
Speaker 1: are black. at this Amazon facility. And most of them
36:29
Speaker 1: are women as well. So it's also sort of changing
36:32
Speaker 1: the nature of who's in a union and what unions
36:35
Speaker 1: look like. They have, of course, become much more racially
36:38
Speaker 1: diverse over the years than they used to be.
36:41
Speaker 2: It is, according to exit polls, which are notably flawed,
36:44
Speaker 2: but Biden won union members by 16 points in the
36:50
Speaker 2: most recent election.
36:51
Speaker 5: And the.
36:53
Speaker 2: Decline in union membership and the power of unions is
36:57
Speaker 2: not something that is just a after effect of globalization
37:03
Speaker 2: and corporate concentration. It is also part of a very
37:05
Speaker 2: specific political strategy of the Republicans. Much of the efforts
37:09
Speaker 2: to reduce collective bargaining rights and Hurt unions have been
37:14
Speaker 2: funded by the Kochs over the years. That's what happened
37:17
Speaker 2: in Wisconsin. And they do that because for decades, unions
37:21
Speaker 2: were the sort of ground troops for Democrats. They were
37:24
Speaker 2: huge funding sources for Democrats. They were organized forces for Democrats.
37:28
Speaker 2: And it is absolutely critical that we fight back on
37:33
Speaker 2: these issues because strengthening unions is at the exact intersection
37:37
Speaker 2: of something that is great substantively and great politically. And
37:42
Speaker 2: So there is a double imperative to do this. And
37:44
Speaker 2: I've said this already in this podcast a couple times,
37:47
Speaker 2: but it's just incredibly exciting that it is clear the
37:50
Speaker 2: Biden administration recognizes that and is doing something about it.
37:53
Speaker 1: I think that's such an important point because obviously union
37:56
Speaker 1: organizing is good for workers for a whole bunch of reasons,
37:59
Speaker 1: higher wages and benefits, better conditions. Also, protections against sexual
38:04
Speaker 1: harassment and racial discrimination. Unions can help with that. But
38:07
Speaker 1: it's also good for organizing for the Democratic Party, right?
38:10
Speaker 1: Like you said, what used to happen is, you know,
38:13
Speaker 1: unions would endorse a candidate, a Democratic candidate, and then
38:17
Speaker 1: they would communicate to all of their members about that endorsement.
38:20
Speaker 1: And that endorsement would carry a lot of weight with
38:23
Speaker 1: the members. And as unions have been on the decline,
38:26
Speaker 1: that sort of organizing force in the Democratic Party, which also,
38:29
Speaker 1: by the way, is an organizing force that builds the
38:32
Speaker 1: sort of multiracial working class coalition that we know is
38:37
Speaker 1: most potent for Democrats. And so if you have unions
38:41
Speaker 1: organizing white and black and brown workers together on behalf
38:46
Speaker 1: of Democratic candidates, that's a really powerful force in politics.
38:50
Speaker 1: And it has been on the decline in recent years.
38:52
Speaker 1: And if we can sort of build that up again,
38:54
Speaker 1: it'll be both good for workers and it will help
38:56
Speaker 1: us maintain political power. What are some of the other
38:59
Speaker 1: steps Biden can take to help strengthen unions, both on
39:03
Speaker 1: his own and with Congress?
39:05
Speaker 2: He's already done some very important things, which is appointing
39:09
Speaker 2: a very pro-labor Secretary of Labor in Marty Walsh. And
39:12
Speaker 2: he's a very pro-organized labor head of the National Labor
39:17
Speaker 2: Relations Board. So that makes a huge difference. He's already
39:22
Speaker 2: signed a number of executive orders that are primarily undoing
39:25
Speaker 2: anti-worker things that Trump did, but are still very good.
39:29
Speaker 2: The most important thing also ends up in the Joe
39:32
Speaker 2: Manchin cul-de-sac but is a piece of legislation called the
39:35
Speaker 2: PRO Act, which would make it much easier for workers
39:39
Speaker 2: to organize and make it much harder companies to penalize workers,
39:44
Speaker 2: penalize workers trying to organize, penalize strikers, and puts real
39:48
Speaker 2: teeth into corporate misdeeds when trying to stop a union drive.
39:54
Speaker 2: That piece of legislation passed the House in the last Congress.
39:58
Speaker 2: It will pass the House again. It will face an
40:01
Speaker 2: uncertain fate in the Senate, but it's yet another argument
40:04
Speaker 2: for getting rid of the votes in the Senate. Joe
40:09
Speaker 2: Manchin has a lot of things we disagree with him on,
40:11
Speaker 2: but he has been a pretty pro-union member. Labor is
40:17
Speaker 2: a very big deal in West Virginia and a big
40:18
Speaker 2: part of his political base.
40:21
Speaker 1: And Jamel Bowie has a good piece about this in
40:23
Speaker 1: the New York Times, and he listed some other executive
40:26
Speaker 1: actions that Biden could take. A $ 15 minimum wage for
40:28
Speaker 1: federal contract employees is You require federal contracts to go
40:33
Speaker 1: exclusively to employers who remain neutral in union elections. It
40:37
Speaker 1: would bar contracts for employers who illegally oppose organizing. And then,
40:40
Speaker 1: of course, as you mentioned, Biden's going to be able
40:42
Speaker 1: to fill some vacancies on the National Labor Relations Board.
40:45
Speaker 1: He already fired the Trump guy. But with two more
40:47
Speaker 1: vacancies or two more slots that he can fill, we'll
40:49
Speaker 1: have a pro-labor majority on the NLRB, which is very,
40:53
Speaker 1: very important. OK, when we come back, my interview with
40:57
Speaker 1: the mayor of Ithaca, New York, Savante Myrick, about police
40:59
Speaker 1: reform in Ithaca. On the pod today, the mayor of Ithaca,
41:11
Speaker 1: New York, Savante Myrick.
41:13
Speaker 2: Mr.
41:13
Speaker 1: Mayor, welcome to the show.
41:15
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me. It's a real honor.
41:18
Speaker 3: It's a real privilege.
41:20
Speaker 1: It's an honor to have you. You have recently proposed
41:25
Speaker 1: what was called by Wes Lowry at GQ, the most
41:28
Speaker 1: radical reimagining of policing in the post-George Floyd era. You
41:33
Speaker 1: want to replace Ithaca's police department with a department of
41:36
Speaker 1: community solutions and public safety that's made up of both
41:40
Speaker 1: armed public safety workers and unarmed community solution workers. So
41:45
Speaker 1: I want to talk all about how it works. But first,
41:48
Speaker 1: what made you come to the realization that Ithaca needed
41:51
Speaker 1: to try something big and ambitious on police reform that
41:55
Speaker 1: hasn't really been done before?
41:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure. And it was just the current state of affairs.
42:01
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I've been blessed to be in office
42:03
Speaker 3: here for the last 14 years and 10 years as mayor.
42:07
Speaker 3: And so I've had a front row seat, and not
42:09
Speaker 3: just front row seat, I've often been in the driver's seat,
42:12
Speaker 3: watching our current police department struggle to meet the demands
42:17
Speaker 3: of the 21st century city. And I see all of
42:20
Speaker 3: our police officers themselves working so hard and going out
42:23
Speaker 3: of their way and being selfless and being brave. And
42:26
Speaker 3: still the system and the structure setting us up for mistrust,
42:29
Speaker 3: for failure, and for a lot of outrage. It's nationally
42:35
Speaker 3: and it's happened here locally in Ithaca as we saw
42:37
Speaker 3: uprisings all summer into the fall and into the winter.
42:41
Speaker 3: And so you say, well, if you've got good people
42:44
Speaker 3: and the outcomes are still wrong, then this must be
42:46
Speaker 3: a structural problem. And that really came out as we
42:48
Speaker 3: did a nine month long deep dive into our data
42:51
Speaker 3: from our calls to our stops, to our rest, to
42:55
Speaker 3: our tickets and our focus groups, particularly around marginalized communities.
42:59
Speaker 3: It became clear that if we're going to deliver public
43:02
Speaker 3: safety in the 21st century, we need more tools than
43:06
Speaker 3: what we had in our toolbox. You know, it's the saying,
43:10
Speaker 3: and when you have only a hammer, every problem looks
43:12
Speaker 3: like a nail. Well, screwdrivers and Allen wrenches and bolt cutters,
43:17
Speaker 3: we need more tools.
43:18
Speaker 1: So can you sort of walk through the process that
43:21
Speaker 1: led you to this specific proposal? You mentioned, you know,
43:24
Speaker 1: looking at data and some focus groups, like who did
43:26
Speaker 1: you talk to? Where did you get the ideas from?
43:28
Speaker 1: What kind of meetings did you have?
43:30
Speaker 3: Yeah. very difficult meetings.
43:32
Speaker 1: I imagine.
43:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not easy. And especially with our law enforcement officers.
43:37
Speaker 3: I mean, this is their, this is a career, but
43:40
Speaker 3: it's also an identity. And to feel attacked, to feel
43:44
Speaker 3: underappreciated is really tough for them. But you have to
43:48
Speaker 3: remember that a police department is only as good as
43:51
Speaker 3: the trust the community has in it. So particularly if
43:54
Speaker 3: it comes to solving crimes, right? Unless our officers are
43:57
Speaker 3: on the scene, I think folks watch CSI and think, well,
44:00
Speaker 3: officers have all sorts of ways to solve crimes. Most
44:03
Speaker 3: officers around the scenes, most crimes get solved because people
44:05
Speaker 3: speak to us, because people trust us, because they give
44:08
Speaker 3: us tips, they talk to us. And when nobody's talking
44:11
Speaker 3: to you, it's impossible to get the guns off the
44:14
Speaker 3: street and to keep the community safe. So we did
44:17
Speaker 3: focus groups, right? We let the law enforcement officers have
44:20
Speaker 3: their own private focus groups where they can speak their truth,
44:23
Speaker 3: have that truth recorded, made anonymous, and then presented to
44:28
Speaker 3: the decision makers. We did the same for the most
44:29
Speaker 3: vulnerable populations, homeless folks, members of the Black community that
44:33
Speaker 3: for generations, we have gotten inequitable treatment from the entire
44:40
Speaker 3: criminal justice system, beginning with police officers. And we found
44:44
Speaker 3: actually our big finding was on both sides of that equation,
44:48
Speaker 3: which was that there was deep dissatisfaction because the officers
44:53
Speaker 3: felt like they were asked to do too much and
44:55
Speaker 3: set up for failure. They're being called to, Because there's
44:59
Speaker 3: a homeless person, they're being called because somebody's acting erratically.
45:03
Speaker 3: And then they're being blamed when something goes wrong, or
45:05
Speaker 3: they're being blamed for enforcing laws like trespassing. And then
45:09
Speaker 3: on the community side, we actually didn't hear that they
45:11
Speaker 3: wanted the police to go away. What we heard instead
45:14
Speaker 3: is that they wanted a different footprint. They wanted more
45:17
Speaker 3: foot patrols. They wanted officers who weren't armed. So it
45:21
Speaker 3: didn't escalate tensions when you saw them immediately. They wanted
45:24
Speaker 3: people that were from the community. They wanted diversity in
45:27
Speaker 3: the department, which we often think of as ethnic diversity
45:30
Speaker 3: for good reason and racial diversity, but they also wanted
45:34
Speaker 3: gender diversity. And there's a good reason for that too.
45:36
Speaker 3: It turns out that women in law enforcement are better deescalators.
45:41
Speaker 3: They're better at conflict resolution. I say in law enforcement,
45:43
Speaker 3: this is also true in my experience.
45:46
Speaker 1: Every aspect of life, yeah.
45:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, all over. And so... Those same people that we
45:52
Speaker 3: want to see our department become more diverse, we want
45:54
Speaker 3: to see more women, more people of color, they're not
45:57
Speaker 3: applying for these jobs right now. They're not applying. If
46:01
Speaker 3: you go into my neighborhood on the south side and
46:04
Speaker 3: you say to a 19-year-old, hey, would you like to
46:06
Speaker 3: become a police officer? They'll say no. So, well, do
46:10
Speaker 3: you want a job in a unit that works 24-7
46:13
Speaker 3: on the street, helping people solve problems, responding to... non-criminal emergencies,
46:19
Speaker 3: maybe it's medical calls, maybe it's missing people, maybe somebody's
46:24
Speaker 3: just broken down on the side of the road and
46:26
Speaker 3: needs a ride. Does that sound like a job that
46:27
Speaker 3: you'd be interested in? And they say, yes. So once
46:30
Speaker 3: we had those two different findings, the officers are stressed
46:34
Speaker 3: and need a new model. The community is fed up
46:39
Speaker 3: with the current situation. That's when it became clear, we
46:42
Speaker 3: need to build something from scratch. You can turn, you know, John,
46:45
Speaker 3: they say that the Systems give the results that they're
46:49
Speaker 3: designed to give. And we built police departments and then
46:54
Speaker 3: have been nibbling around the edges ever since. And it's
46:56
Speaker 3: like trying to turn a refrigerator into an air conditioner.
47:01
Speaker 3: And you can do it, but it's not great. What
47:04
Speaker 3: you need to do is build an air conditioner from
47:06
Speaker 3: the ground up. And we need to build a 21st
47:08
Speaker 3: century department from the ground up.
47:10
Speaker 1: So what does that look like? How does this work
47:12
Speaker 1: if this proposal were to come to fruition?
47:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it would take a couple of years. So
47:18
Speaker 3: the Common Council of the City of Ithaca approves it
47:20
Speaker 3: this month. We would enter into a design phase for
47:24
Speaker 3: a couple of years. We would fill out the design
47:27
Speaker 3: of each type of job description. We would fund the
47:30
Speaker 3: positions and then press play, switch over. And you'd have
47:34
Speaker 3: a civilian head of the department. And there's a few
47:36
Speaker 3: good reasons why you want to be able to hire
47:39
Speaker 3: a civilian. Maybe that civilian has a background in law enforcement,
47:41
Speaker 3: but there's a few reasons that you want a civilian
47:45
Speaker 3: at the head. overseeing both units and those units working together.
47:49
Speaker 3: So if you live in the city of Ithaca, what
47:51
Speaker 3: you'll experience is you'll see more officers on foot, you'll
47:54
Speaker 3: see more officers in your community, and you'll see them
47:57
Speaker 3: engaging in a different way. You'll see them being friendlier,
48:01
Speaker 3: being more engaged, and knowing, because we're starting from a
48:04
Speaker 3: fresh culture from the ground up, that a big part
48:06
Speaker 3: of their job is community trust and connection.
48:10
Speaker 1: And some of them are unarmed. So what is the
48:15
Speaker 1: job and the role of the unarmed officers versus the
48:20
Speaker 1: ones who are still armed?
48:23
Speaker 3: Well, the first place you can start to sort that
48:26
Speaker 3: out is by looking at the call types. Any call
48:29
Speaker 3: type where you say, geez, 50% of these calls end
48:32
Speaker 3: up resulting in arrests. If we know we're going to
48:35
Speaker 3: the scene and the dispatch is saying somebody's been stabbed,
48:38
Speaker 3: if we're going to a scene and we say there's
48:41
Speaker 3: a bank robbery, you know for sure you're sending the
48:44
Speaker 3: armed people. But then you start to look at the
48:47
Speaker 3: call types that result in an arrest 5% of the time.
48:50
Speaker 3: Or in the city of Ithaca, the calls that result
48:52
Speaker 3: in arrest 1% of the time, which is our mental
48:54
Speaker 3: health calls. Only 1% of the time does that lead
48:56
Speaker 3: to an arrest. But then here's what we found. There
49:00
Speaker 3: are nine different call types that taken together represent 35%
49:03
Speaker 3: of everything our officers do during the day. Nine different calls,
49:08
Speaker 3: 35% of the time, zero arrests. They never result in arrests.
49:13
Speaker 3: So if it's a stranded motorist, right? You send an
49:16
Speaker 3: unarmed officer. It's that simple. If it's a stranded motorist,
49:20
Speaker 3: you're not going to have to arrest that person. And
49:23
Speaker 3: when that person shows up, because here's the deal too,
49:27
Speaker 3: that stranded motorist, you never know what sort of traumas
49:30
Speaker 3: they're carrying. You never know what kind of things will
49:34
Speaker 3: be triggered by seeing a police officer or seeing somebody
49:37
Speaker 3: who's carrying a gun. And avoiding that, sometimes that's just necessary.
49:41
Speaker 3: That's just a necessary part. In a country with more
49:43
Speaker 3: guns than people, you're going to have to have armed officers.
49:46
Speaker 3: But if you can avoid it, you should. So that's
49:49
Speaker 3: where we'll start with those 35% of all the calls
49:51
Speaker 3: that the police do will be handled by those community
49:54
Speaker 3: solutions workers. And then all the community building stuff, showing
49:57
Speaker 3: up at events, blocking off streets for festivals and parades.
50:00
Speaker 3: You don't need a weapon to do that stuff. And
50:03
Speaker 3: we feel like we could recruit and retain a more
50:06
Speaker 3: diverse workforce to do it.
50:08
Speaker 1: So what are the next steps and what do you
50:10
Speaker 1: think the prospects are for this passing through the city council?
50:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. This is a big change.
50:20
Speaker 3: And our council is rightly nervous. Our police union has
50:24
Speaker 3: been very vociferous in their opposition, which I think is unfortunate.
50:29
Speaker 3: I think they know that there has to be a change,
50:33
Speaker 3: but they're a bit afraid of it. And I understand that.
50:36
Speaker 3: And local government, We know that the only thing people
50:40
Speaker 3: hate more than the status quo is change of any type.
50:44
Speaker 3: And so they've been opposing. Our council is in a
50:48
Speaker 3: really tough spot, but they're very deliberative, bright group. They're
50:52
Speaker 3: going to be working throughout this month and then voting
50:53
Speaker 3: on March 31st on whether or not to approve it.
50:57
Speaker 1: So you mentioned the police union. Obviously, you know, they
51:00
Speaker 1: don't seem like the biggest fans right now. They said.
51:03
Speaker 1: It's extremely dangerous, that it amounts to union busting, that
51:06
Speaker 1: it would make it more difficult to recruit officers. What
51:09
Speaker 1: would you say to police officers or city council members
51:13
Speaker 1: or residents who might find some of those arguments compelling?
51:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, look, you do have to move carefully
51:19
Speaker 3: because the right to organize is sacred. I believe in it.
51:24
Speaker 3: The reason I was, I am even here and got
51:27
Speaker 3: a chance to be here is because my grandparents took
51:29
Speaker 3: us in out of a homeless shelter. We were living
51:32
Speaker 3: off the street because they were union teachers who made
51:35
Speaker 3: a fair wage and never enough to buy a second house,
51:39
Speaker 3: but enough to put carpet in the basement and to
51:42
Speaker 3: put literally to put clothes on our backs so we
51:45
Speaker 3: could go to school. And so we're not union busting.
51:48
Speaker 3: The union, if the officers want the union to continue
51:51
Speaker 3: to exist in the new department, it can and will.
51:53
Speaker 3: That's their legal right. But I would just ask them
51:58
Speaker 3: to step back out of panic mode. to think about
52:02
Speaker 3: the things that they've told me over the last years,
52:04
Speaker 3: which is that it is already impossible to recruit people
52:06
Speaker 3: right now. It is already feels as fraught as it
52:10
Speaker 3: ever has out there. And if you've ever done a
52:12
Speaker 3: ride along, you know, the world looks different from behind
52:16
Speaker 3: a cop car. You know, there's more stairs and fewer
52:18
Speaker 3: hand waves and that increases officers feeling of danger, which
52:25
Speaker 3: is bad for the officers and bad for the community.
52:27
Speaker 3: So I'd ask folks who are opposed, So just ask yourself,
52:30
Speaker 3: is the status quo working for you? And if not,
52:34
Speaker 3: it's time to build something from the ground up to
52:37
Speaker 3: design it for a 21st century city.
52:41
Speaker 1: You told GQ that Fox News will probably lose their
52:43
Speaker 1: shit over this. I think that's a safe bet.
52:48
Speaker 3: Wes is a very good reporter.
52:49
Speaker 1: He's an excellent reporter. You also pointed out that this
52:54
Speaker 1: proposal will likely result in more funding for public safety
52:57
Speaker 1: and more public safety officers, you know, even though this
53:00
Speaker 1: kind of reform has been described by activists often as
53:03
Speaker 1: defunding the police or police abolition, what have you learned
53:07
Speaker 1: from this process about the most effective way to message
53:11
Speaker 1: police reform to a community?
53:13
Speaker 3: Sure. And I learned it mostly by the way I
53:15
Speaker 3: learned everything, which is by doing it wrong first and
53:19
Speaker 3: figuring out how to do it better later. Yes, that
53:22
Speaker 3: once you have words like defund and abolition, that become
53:26
Speaker 3: so weighted with other meanings, they're no longer useful as words.
53:30
Speaker 3: I mean, they become labels and labels are only good
53:32
Speaker 3: for soup cans. Like what you have to do is
53:36
Speaker 3: describe what will actually change and what it will mean
53:41
Speaker 3: for people's families. And in this context, what it could
53:45
Speaker 3: mean is a safer community with less crimes. The crimes
53:49
Speaker 3: that happen will have a better chance of being solved
53:52
Speaker 3: and everybody, will feel comfortable calling the police, which we
53:56
Speaker 3: just also have to be very honest. Right now, not
53:59
Speaker 3: everybody feels comfortable calling the police, particularly, you know, my family,
54:05
Speaker 3: being a young black guy, my two brothers, my sister,
54:10
Speaker 3: when we heard the sirens, there are multiple tiers of
54:13
Speaker 3: concern that you have when you hear the siren go by.
54:16
Speaker 3: You hope that your family is safe from harm, from
54:20
Speaker 3: external harm, and you hope that they'll be safe from
54:22
Speaker 3: the officers will arrive at the scene. And that is
54:24
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that no American should have to
54:27
Speaker 3: live with.
54:29
Speaker 1: So that's on the message side, on the organizing side,
54:31
Speaker 1: you know, police reform legislation on the national level may
54:34
Speaker 1: end up getting stuck in the Senate, like everything else
54:37
Speaker 1: because of the filibuster. Um, what advice would you give
54:39
Speaker 1: to other mayors, city leaders, activists who want to see
54:43
Speaker 1: ambitious police reform come to their city?
54:47
Speaker 3: Sure. Well, the first is that you, you have to, um,
54:50
Speaker 3: You do have to take your time, right? We can
54:53
Speaker 3: just come up with this plan in a weekend and
54:55
Speaker 3: press send. I mean, it was nine months of hard
54:58
Speaker 3: deliberative work, data behind it. And you do have to
55:03
Speaker 3: work collaboratively. You have to get feedback from everybody in
55:05
Speaker 3: the community. But you cannot allow the police unions to
55:10
Speaker 3: have veto power at the end of that process. And
55:13
Speaker 3: for too long, that's the way this has worked. I mean,
55:15
Speaker 3: I have seen it. We've had at least three cycles
55:18
Speaker 3: of this. There's been concern of Trayvon Martin was killed.
55:22
Speaker 3: You do a big round of community meetings. You come
55:25
Speaker 3: up with all these ideas. We're gonna do a residency
55:27
Speaker 3: requirement in the city. The police union says, we don't
55:30
Speaker 3: hate it. We don't like that. The council says, okay, well,
55:32
Speaker 3: they don't like it. So we're not gonna do it.
55:34
Speaker 3: What that does is leave you stuck in a rut,
55:37
Speaker 3: but also further erodes people's trust in the system. The
55:41
Speaker 3: next time you ask them, come to a city council
55:43
Speaker 3: meeting and give your input. We care about you. You
55:47
Speaker 3: have to work collaboratively But then make a decision and
55:51
Speaker 3: stick to it and don't let the police unions veto
55:55
Speaker 3: what a community has put together.
55:58
Speaker 1: Mayor Sivante Myrick of Ithaca, thank you so much for
56:02
Speaker 1: joining Pod Save America. And good luck to you on
56:07
Speaker 1: getting some real reform up there.
56:09
Speaker 3: Thank you. And bless you for everything. I've never missed
56:11
Speaker 3: an episode. So thank you for everything you do. It's
56:13
Speaker 3: really terrific.
56:14
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for being a good friend of the pod.
56:16
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. Take care.
56:20
Speaker 3: Thanks.
56:24
Speaker 1: Thanks to Mayor Myrick for joining us today. And I
56:26
Speaker 1: hope everyone has a great weekend. Bye, everyone. Pod Save
56:33
Speaker 1: America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer is
56:36
Speaker 1: Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed
56:40
Speaker 1: and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer.
56:43
Speaker 1: Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin,
56:48
Speaker 1: and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team,
56:51
Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Nar Malconian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim, who
56:54
Speaker 1: film and upload these episodes as videos every week.