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The Narcissist's Playbook Deep Dive · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Ken: Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa! Lisa: Hi Ken Ken: Well, this is gonna be a nice little treat because you're so excited you're gonna bounce up and down like Lisa: Yeah. Ken: a ping pong ball. Or not ping pong ball, those those super ball bouncy things. But you're really Lisa: Yeah. Ken: excited about this, and I'm actually I'm also very excited to talk about this with you. so Lisa, what's our topic for today? Lisa: So, it's the movie documentary Narcissist Playbook. It just came out last weekend. It was an early link that I got because I'm a donor of the documentary. I guess the the documentarian, his name's Mark Vicente, and he's this is he's spent like five years working on it. So I'm I donated it was like nineteen bucks, twenty bucks or something. and you're like, you get an early link and you get all these I guess I was having like a thing this weekend. But by the time this airs, it'll already passed. It doesn't matter. I'm a huge fan of Mark Vicente. I did see What the Bleep, but this was years ago, long time ago. But I was a big fan of the documentary and During COVID, I think the HBO series, The Vow, about the Nexium sex cult, that's what the media called it. He did two seasons, actually. That's right. Yeah, I think that w that was during COVID, so I loved it. I thought it was really, really good and really heartbreaking too. So this is like the aftermath of him basically reconstructing after coming out of the cult and going through therapy and learning about narcissism. I remember him in he was being interviewed and he said he just became obsessed to the point where his wife, who also escaped the cult as well, said, You need to make a documentary about this because you just is so consuming and he thought it was a great idea. which I think is a brilliant idea as well. Because I think it's very much needed and you know, it's so much so that I believe it needs to be like shown in high schools, like that level of need. Because I know for sure if I had had seen a movie like this It would have been very helpful. I went through a lot of crazy shit in high school with like fake friends, you know, abusive family. And if I'd seen this, it would everything would have made sense. And I would have been able to protect myself better. just for clarification, Ken has not seen it. He's seen pieces of it. I tried to get get us a link, to give him access to the link, but He wasn't able to, unfortunately. We he b I probably should just come over to my house and watched it together. They're very protective with this link. even try to Ken: Which makes sense. It's a it's early access, so it's like it's for it's incentive for you know, it's if you do it like a crowdfunding kind of thing, it's a incentive to watch the movie early, but the movie will be I I'm assuming like a a public release in what's it, next month? Or the month after? Lisa: Something like that. Maybe August, September, around there. Ken: Hopefully by then I wa I will be able to watch the movie. Until then I'll just watch the myriad of clips that are pretty relevant. to still probably look into this documentary. I'm gonna cut this out, but like a lot of people are just like you you mean you ever have people just say like documentaries and then documentaries? Like they're people just mess it up and I'm just like, great. No no no, but but but people people do that but peop Lisa: misspeak? I'm the queen of misspeaking. But documentary? I've heard f people say documentary instead of documentary. Ken: But people say that a lot, especially like I I and like that's locked into my head sometimes. Like it it it's either or it comes out, yeah. Lisa: So if it just comes out well would it be easier if you just said the doc or the film? So you don't feel like, shit, I fucked it up and it sidetracks you Ken: Well, I don't even want to say it because it's like, what was it like people say conversing and then some people say conversating. I was like, is conversating a word? Pretty sure it's not. Lisa: Conversating? Yeah. No, it's conversing. Ken: like, yeah, which one's a word and which one's made up? But that's beside the point. Let's you know, so what's the first thing you wanna talk about, Lisa? Lisa: Okay, I think maybe we'll just go in chronological order of the movie. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Just for shits and giggles, when I was watching the documentary, I was writing notes on my laptop. And I was so excited to see it. I've been looking forward to it for a couple years now. I had a lot of stuff came to my mind. So in the documentary, they interview survivors and also actual narcissists or self-proclaimed narcissists, right? a lot of them are like social media influencer types. most notably, this is, you know, going back to the theme of our podcast is shitty parents. This actually stuck out to me. Cause this guy, his name is Lee Hammock, right? He Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: lives in like South Carolina. Really, actually a really nice area. But like really green with trees when they showed it. And I'm like, wow, it's really nice. getting sidetracked. so he has a twin brother who is not a narcissist. And Lee became a narcissist. And they talked i a little bit about their background, you know. and Lee, if you follow him on social media, I follow him on Instagram. he had an absent father. that affected him and made him feel kind of inferior, you know. Why did you go around having children with other women? And that created A g an intense shame because that's what narcissists have. Deep down it's an intense feeling of shame that they will do anything and everything not to feel it. Literally anything. That's why they project. That's why they lash out at you. If you make them have that accountability and look inside and self-reflect with that shame that touches it, they w they will come after you. he talks about that. His twin brother, on the other hand, did not become a narcissist. In fact, his brother works with children, is a very empathetic person. I there's a scene where they're fishing in this beautiful lake and they're surrounded by trees. It's just really gorgeous. I've never been to South Carolina, but it it looks really, really beautiful, really green, very lush. And h his brother goes, this is so nice. Look how beautiful this like taking in nature and Lee just says, the narcissist, You know what makes me think? shadow yacht. Like they just n yeah. Ken: Were we talking about yachts before about I'm not sure? It's like, yeah, who who who has yachts? It was like, s there's there's a function for yachts, especially if you live in South Carolina, there's a good coastline there. Lisa: But it just they're not content. It gives you like an insight that he he's just not content with just being present And that made me think, okay. it it it doesn't address this. Like the movie doesn't say the only thing it says that both were well, Lee became a narcissist because of his dad's absence. But I wish it would gone further in detail and explained maybe because they were both raised differently, even though they were twins. You know, we've talked about this before. No two siblings can grow up they can grow up in the same household but not be raised the same. S yeah. Ken: Mm-hmm. That's exactly the point there. I think with Lee it was like he didn't become aware that he was a narcissist until like an argument with his wife. And then I think just just his wife calling him a narcissist, he was really I guess yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: do you follow him too? okay, so you know, right, yeah. Ken: So Lisa, I've been doing my research too, so it's like that's why it's like it's it's a good Lisa: I'm so sorry. I I didn't know you followed him specifically as well. sorry. Ken: It it's it's very interesting to me because like people that are self aware of, you know, like like a diagnosis or like some sort of personality disorder, which this is, it's to be so self aware that you're you kinda it's trying to understand a certain behavior. Because it's it i it's the idea that I think especially well how popular narcissism disorder has been Especially in the past like five years, right? How aware we are of it. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: It's interesting to actually hear from someone that has a disorder and I guess trying to fix it or try to explain it, try to kind of mitigate some of the negative effects it has. So it's it's it's very interesting. So it's the nature versus nurture debate, which is but the thing is, even like like you said, one sibling might have been treated one way and then the other sibling might have been treated another way, one might and then in in Lee's case, well he became the narcissist, so the brother did not. Lisa: Do you think Lee was Yeah, I'm just wondering if he thought Lee might have been the golden child, and that's why. Ken: It it could be, right? 'Cause we could run through the situation with well, your brother. we talked about that in one of the previous episodes. If anybody wants Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: to catch up on that, we do talk about Lisa's brother. Not diagnosed narcissist, but you know, it's it's he has he has all the indicators, right? It's we don't wanna label him. But it's very Yeah, it checks so many boxes, so Lisa: Yeah, he checks off a lot of boxes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ken: so you get to see it at that case. It's like, well, Lisa, do you have narcissistic tendencies? You might think about it and you know, not a lot of people think that just because they're very, you know, in their own self-interest that they're a narcissist. That's not that's not how it is at all. Like I think I think most people think about themselves and think about their own self interest as number one, right? Usually. that doesn't make someone a narcissist. So Lisa: No. Ken: it has to check a lot of like boxes. It can't it's it's it's har it's easy to self diagnose. Like you could check the boxes. But this is Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: why there's there's therapists and physicians that could do this Lisa: Right, there's a c you have to meet the entire criteria. Ken: for a living, right? Mm-hmm. Lisa: So there's this guy online. He his name's like hypervigilance or something. He's a child of narcissists and he's like an influencer, but what's his name? Christopher is it his handle is like hypervigilance. Christian Van Linda. He actually he said he claims that you've he got into like an online fight with Lee. And cause he asked Lee, like, even though you're self aware, how do you know that you're not abusive to your children? And he goes, I'm not abusive to my children and I guess cause he's going through act actively like doing therapy and stuff. But I guess according to the Chris guy, Lee lashed out at him and like kind of waged a campaign against him. That's what he claims. And I was like, what the fuck? So Lee he's known for being kind of abusive to some of his followers who disagree with him. So just I'm just saying, like, cause he's so self-aware and he's so healed and blah blah blah. You can't I don't think they're even though he's self-aware, I don't think he's a hundred percent healed because they never change. Ken: definitely not. once remember, it t it it takes many years to for someone to turn into that, right? you can't just flip a switch and just turn it off. You can't do that. that's for a lot of things. It's like let's say like just our personalities right now, right? We've had years to hone this personality that you Lisa have a certain personality at the way you act Lisa: Mm. Ken: and the way you think, and I have a a certain way I act and think. Can you imagine if someone just told you it's like, well, tomorrow I'll just change it? Turn whatever kind of thing off. Like, that's why I always get like frustrated. you know, I went to like a GI doctor and he was like, you know what? we've tried everything, you probably have IBS. so what in your lifestyle do you think you could change? And then he's like recommending, hey, maybe should stop stressing. I'm like, right. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Right. if if if if if it worked just by practice, that'll be great, isn't it? Like all my that Lisa: Yeah. Ken: would fix everybody's issues, right? If people stop stressing over the little stuff, that'll be great, but it's like it's someone telling you that. in practice not so easy. In in in kind of like idealized form, yeah, of course. Just because you know you're a narcissist, doesn't mean you could stop it. Because it's built into you already. Lisa: Yeah. I I'm sure he has a therapist, he he's it's like, okay, what is the scenario? Let me tell me okay, you weren't seeing through their perspective or that way, but I I just wonder, with this kind of situation, honestly, you don't know until the kids are grown up and if the kids just don't talk to him, you know he didn't. This whole self aware thing, it was all just a ruse. It was all f you know, just yeah a lot of influencers are full of shit. We all know we know that, right? So Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: we yeah. So that's basically with Lee. It it didn't really give a whole lot. It is basically basically like a five minute clip of him and his brother and you see his brother teaching at a school. He seems like a really really nice guy. And he's like he even says his brother says, I'm known as the nice one and he's known as the mean one. but his I think his brother might be more maybe he's codependent, you know? I that's what I'm assuming. I don't know him, but maybe that's why he feels like he can help, because he wa no one was there to help him growing up, so now He feels like he's the helper type. Maybe that was the role he was assigned as a child, whereas Lee was like completely doted on. I don't know. It's all just speculation, and I don't know enough about Lee. And who knows what he says is true, right? What he says on Instagram and his videos on TikTok. that's where we're at. and it shows how narcissistic parenting shapes. The kids, you know, narcissism begets narcissism. but not always, because just like Lee's brother, it shows it's the the interview Barry I think I'm pronouncing it, Sunnenfeld. He's so he was a director for Men in Black and a bunch of other films. they interview him, and it's probably the most heartbreak to me, it was the most heartbreaking part. And actually, it was the part where I got so fucking angry. And I don't want to give away too much, but he himself, he talks about his narcissistic parents. both his mother and his father. His father was a salesman, you know, a very narcissistic job, right? Doing sales. Because they're bullshit artists. They're the they're the best salesmen there can be. and his mom was also one. so while he was growing up, I I don't know if it was his mom's brother, but his uncle came to stay with him and his family when he was growing up. His uncle was a PDF file. I don't I don't wanna say the word because then we're gonna get demonetized and shut down. But a minor attracted person. I don't know. I ha try to skirt around the word. But everybody knows it. PDF, right? I th yeah, it's become more common. Ken: You could call him a PDF you could call him a PD PDF, pretty much. I think I think people understand what PDF is now. Sorry, Adobe. Lisa: Right. Yeah. So they expose him to this predator. I'll just say I'll just use the word predator. and Barry says he was also a victim of this predator, so were his siblings, and he actually went to his father and said and it and told him this is what's happening. You put this person in who you knew was already a predator and you brought them to live with children. And do you know what his father says? I said, I didn't think he was molesting you. he was just playing with your penis. I thought he was just playing with like what the fuck? When he s when that when that said, my god, I was so fucking pissed. And this is very common with narcissistic parents, they will expose their children to PDF files to predators. And predators, we've talked about this before, they have this laser-like precision when it comes to choosing their victims. They know, especially children of narcissists, are super easy targets because they know their parents are too busy. They're so super involved with themselves. And even if the parents find out, the parents are more concerned with their own image and protecting the family's image and how it looks On them than how it affects the child, which is so heartbreaking, and it's so sad and it infuriated me, to be honest with you. I was pissed. And I could see the sadness in his eyes, like the way he just started choking up, and I was like, I thought I would start crying, but I just got pissed. Ken: Yeah, in terms of child endangerment, I w wanna call it. I've had friends that have gone through that where it's you know, their parents either expose them or didn't believe them that another family member was doing that to them. And Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it doesn't even need to be like a narcissist kind of situation. just the idea that that happened, usually those kind of relationships between parent and child usually never get reconciled. as soon as, you know, the child gets old enough to leave, they leave and then there's no reconciling that relationship because Honestly, even if the parent wanted to fix it, there's nothing the parent could say to remedy that. that's i even if the parent wanted to, right? the child Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: might not even accept it. because yeah, you could see it Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: like some people's lives could be permanently destroyed by not having their parents believe them that that they were assaulted in in youth. And I've known several situations where, you know, the victim never talked to their parents again. It happened a couple times. Every single time they do not talk to their parents. So I could just imagine how it is. It's a deal breaker for the victim. It's a deal breaker to not have your parents believe you. So there's that too. Lisa: The it a hundred percent. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: There's a scene actually where he even says, you know, they sacrificed me for their own needs. And he just starts choking up and I was like, my fucking god. This can be, honestly, like there could be a a sequel to this documentary all about like focusing on narcissistic parents, like the damage that they do and inflict upon their own children. It it doesn't it this is this movie's an overview, right? So you get a little bit of the victim and this, but I feel like you could even go even further and talk about this 'cause this is I this is so fucking important. And to me this was the most poignant part of the film. You know, it I mean, the mo and not to say that discounting anything else that happened because there's a lot of other things. There's a twist in the movie, which we will not expose. We'll we're thinking about doing another episode where we do spoilers. There will be a disclaimer like, hey, we will be talking about all of the spoilers. And I'm hoping I'm not spoiling too much with this movie, but there's a lot of stuff that I feel like I I need to say. And if you guys think maybe this is I I I don't want to see the movie now because you've already given away too much, I apologize. I I just thought it was pertinent to what we were talking about. Ken: Definitely the spoiler part, we're not even gonna even try to reveal that until the movies the you know the Lisa: The twist. Yeah. Ken: that to us we're not gonna reveal it until maybe couple episodes down the line, maybe a couple months. hopefully the movie out by then. And then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: by then it's f it's fair game. Because it is is documentary, so it's not like a narrative Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: based thing, but it is done like good documentaries follow kind of like a interesting structure. But it is it is public knowledge a lot of this stuff. it's so Lisa: Right. Yeah. And a lot of it is already like in the in their Instagram, like the videos, it like previews. So yeah. Ken: yeah, d I think I think it's a good part to probably list all the people that are like subjects in this documentary, right? You have a lot of people in there. I think the Yeah, Lisa: Mm-hmm. He does interview a lot, yeah. Ken: yeah, yeah. A a couple of them are celebrities. it was like one of them was a actress, right? Lisa: Evan Rachel Wood. Ken: Everyone Rachel Wood. I remember her from what's that Beatles movie? Was it a Beatles movie across across across the universe? I Lisa: The universe across the universe, yeah. Ken: remember that. Because I think that movie came out maybe almost 20 years ago, I think. So I think it's almost 20 years ago. It is, and yeah, Lisa: That sounds about right. Yeah, it was a good movie. I remember liking it when I saw it in the theater. Ken: she was She was very young in that movie. I think she was like a late teenager in that movie, so Lisa: Mm. Ken: you know there was a portion of it where she talks about her, you know, narcissistic relationship. it's kind of like that horrifying like abuse riddle relationship, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Sh yeah, she claims that Marilyn Manson was abusive during their relationship. She was like 18 at the time and he was in his mid to late thirties. Ken: Mm-hmm. And this is public by the way, this is public knowledge. this allegation has been against Marilyn Manson for quite a long time. So yeah, the thing about Mary Lamanson, it's it's it's public knowledge. So this just kinda dives deeper into it, like her relationship with him. Lisa: I think that was the docuseries on HBO. It came out years ago. she and other people, like his exes and ex assistants, I believe, they come out and they speak about Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: their own stories of and also she's also an activist. She went in front of, I believe, Congress to extend the statute of limitations of when you can f file for domestic violence. Because currently, well at that time it was, but they extended it by a few years. sometimes people don't come out right away and they say, this happened to me. It's people just they're so ashamed. They're so embarrassed. There's a lot of, you know stigma to it. Suppose you don't want to talk about it because it's so painful that you just want to block it out and just move on with your life. but I do have some tea that I do want to spill about mis Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Evan Rachel Wood. So I used to bartend and one of my coworkers who was a fellow bartender, she was one of those like hair model blonde girls, but she was about to age out of the industry, so she was bartending. I'm sure she was really beautiful in her youth. I guess she was like pushing forty and but she's like, I used to date Marilyn Manson. And I like, Really? And he's like, yeah, she Evan Rachel Wood is totally lying. I'm like, So how do you know? I was really curious. And she's like, because it never happened to me. I have a degree in psychology, so I know. And I'm like, wait a minute. If you have a degree in psychology, you should know that people don't come out right away. Usually survivors, it takes them years to come out. So, but I thought I just I just kept quiet and I just let her explain. And she said that Marilyn Manson actually called her, like on the phone, and asked, asked her to like back him up that he was never abusive. And and this was after the allegation she came out with the allegations. Evan Rachel Wood came out. So he wanted people to like his exes to back him up. 'Cause he apparently he didn't abuse all of his exes. I guess he was very judicious with whom he did, allegedly. well, so this ex model, I'll call her, she was like a hair model. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she told him, I can't, you know, I I have a kid now. She had like a like a toddler. And that's why she claims she never came out. She's just wanted to like move on. And I was like, okay. And so we just left it at that. And to be fair, you know, Rose McGowan has come out and said she was not abused. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I'm sure other people We're not. But again, abusers they don't abuse everybody. They yeah. Ken: one was Dita von Deese which was you know, one of the most popular ones. It was like it was actually Myra Manson's ex wife. So her relationship with him was I guess she said it was not the same. I think they broke up due to his infidelity and drug abuse. Lisa: with it, Evan Rachel Wood. I think that she was the other woman, quote unquote. Actually she yeah, yeah. Ken: So for Dita von Deese I think for her, I think she broke up with him because of that. But I think she was very careful not to say that it's false allegations. Like she's she kind of didn't want to say like he did it, because sh I think in her mind she doesn't know. So that's she ju judiciously said You know it's Judiciously kind of saying that, well, I understand. Like if it's if he did abuse her, that's very bad. But he she didn't say that he did it. So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: well, which which is in my mind kind of fine, because it's like not everybody usually has the same relationship with someone, right? Even if they're narcissists. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: some people will just take it differently. Some people don't get abused by the narcissist like that. You know, that's why we get that situation where like especially with narcissistic parents, which is a lot of the, you know, the basis of this podcast. someone's gonna be the scapegoat, some g so someone's gonna be the golden child, you know, there's a whole list of myriad of Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: relationships with the narcissist, right? So let's say like you're a target of it, but your brother is not. So he's gonna say, Whoa, I never got abused by mom. So I don't know what you're talking about. You're probably liar. That that's where we come into, right? Just because Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: just because well I guess you're what was it? hair model lady might have just had a different relationship with him, which is totally valid. But you know, to say that someone else is lying, it's you didn't have that relationship unless you had that first hand knowledge actually being the person there seeing that relationship, right? that's the thing. he's seeking yeah, I didn't treat everybody the same way. So you vouch for me, okay? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: for me. Did I abuse you? No? Okay, see, I didn't abuse you. I guess if you have a good enough amount of people who just voucher for you like that, then it it makes it seem like, yeah, you you didn't do that bad thing. But then we also talk about someone else in Hollywood, right? what's that guy That's 70s Show? You know who I'm talking about, right? Lisa: The Danny Masterson? Ken: Yeah, Danny Masterson. I always know him as like you know, Hyde because I love Lisa: Hide. Ken: Thats 70s show by it by black bad with names. But yeah, like the he had people which vouch for him that he didn't do it, right? the the c yeah, yeah, like the cut the yeah, the Kutchers. The Kutchers, even Lisa: They wrote letters to the judge with a c the character. The good character huh. The yup yes they did. Ken: I heard even you know, the new lead singer of, you know, Linkin Park kind of vouched for him. Lisa: cause sh 'cause she's a Scientologist, that's right. Ken: Mm-hmm. And I and I've been following her since you know, I've been following her since her career as a lead singer for Dead Sara, which is you know, I'm I'm I'm very happy for her that she kind of like progressed into like a bigger band. But yeah, we w she was one of the people that vouched for him. So it's so vouching for someone doesn't prove that you didn't do the crime. Doesn't prove that you if not a crime, just abuse. It's it's not like Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: a valid kind of like, you know, panacea for for fault. So we have to view it that way too. Just because someone said that Evan Rachel would, like, yeah, she's a liar. yeah, we can't totally discount that because you don't know their relationship at that point. Lisa: And then there was like a huge power imbalance because she was eighteen. He was in his like mid to late thirties, around thirty-seven, Ken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa: I believe. I I don't. where with Rose McGowan, Dita Vonti, it was more age appropriate. And Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: each were they had their own thing. That's not to say because, you know, I Evermidgewood actually had she had a lot of success as a child actor, especially with thirteen and but still Ken: personality type too. you know, I you know, my fiance loves Dita von Deese so and I Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I kinda follow it too. So if you look at just how, you know, Dita Van Dis like conducts herself, like especially in interviews. I don't know how she is personally, but I I'm thinking a lot of her personality is she's very strong. She's a very strong lady. i it it definitely exudes she exudes confidence and like That could be a thing where it protects her from being abused, right? In a certain way. From narcissistic abuse. Because of just her her aura of confidence, right? And then if you see like you know, Evan Rachel Wood, like she's like a kid at that point. It's easier to manipulate a kid, like a younger person, right? Lisa: Much yeah, she's eighteen. I mean you're she's you're f yeah. Ken: Still trying to figure herself out. Like dea try compare her with Dida Vandis like Dida Vandice's the queen of her less, in my opinion. So she's a extremely strong woman. Lisa: And she's a woman, you know, she's mature. She's extremely small. Ken: you see it and she has this persona that she keeps up. I'm assuming it's a lot of her personalities like that too. but yeah, it's like it's like you're you're dealing with a woman and then you're dealing with a kid. So what's who's easier to take advantage of and abuse? Lisa: Absolutely. And notice how if there's always an age gap, like that's that pronounced. It's a huge red flag in that relationship. You know there's gonna be if especially if like the younger one is financially reliant on the older one. they're ripe for financial abuse, for other kinds of abuses. from what I've noticed. I think what I really like about the the documentary is also how it talks about how these personality types they're basically all over, you know, politics, corporate positions everywhere. And I but there's this one lady they interview, her name's like Bandy Lee. She's this forensic psychiatrist, right? And she's been working for As a forensic psychiatrist, in prisons for like over twenty five years, and she says something that's really weird to me that I was like, What? She says, twenty five years ago they would be confined in prisons or not admitted to it and I'm like, Girl, they've been around forever. Just because they're in prison, it doesn't mean they're not out of prison. They are fucking everywhere. interesting because I'm like I'm writing all this stuff down like no, if you look back in history books, they've been around forever and they've gotten away with being horrible people and they've been propped up, and then it cuts to Dr. Ramani talking about how we have a history of narcissists that they've always rose in power, and then it has like it shows clips like Fidel Castro, Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon, Ken: Yeah. Lisa: etcetera, all these people, and you're like, Yeah. Duh, we've always propped them up. Our society like promotes them, rewards them. Ken: Yeah, I think I th I think what she I thought yeah, I think Dr. Romani says there's like a reward system for narcissists, right? Those are the people that are the most successful Lisa: Absolutely. Ken: in modern society, and even like well, not even just modern society. just keep going back and then I think we have more information about the people existing right now, so we could draw correlations of just how people are back then, A lot of this stuff has been lasting since the dawn of man, so it's just you know, now we just put a label to certain things, but she what she brings up is very true. There is like a structure that's rewards this kind of behavior, isn't there? Or at least if it doesn't reward doesn't punish this kind of behavior. At least not to the degree that we think that they should be punished from, right? Lisa: I I totally agree. Ken: Not a crime to be a narcissist, by the way. Lisa: No, but the crime secur I mean just look at the Epste Ken: Crimes against humanity, maybe, yeah. Lisa: I I mean, just look at the Epstein files. Has anybody been Ken: Who Lisa: who's who's who's in who's gone to jail for that? Literally just J J Gislaine. Jislaine, whatever her name is? Ken: Honestly, let's let's let's wait because I think all the people that are gonna go to jail are not gonna be American Do we wanna go into that political landmine right here? goodness. Let's not even talk about that until it actually happens, right? We we all kind Lisa: No, actually I you know, th I'm not even yeah, I'm not gonna walk into that rake. That's like right. Ken: of know what it's kind of a very perverse thing that's going on right now. Lisa: But th to think like they've kind of always gotten rewarded, right? 'Cause if you go back in history, for example, when I y you ever gone to like the pyramids or whatever in Mexico and They talk about one tribe just has to take over this other tribe. Like they didn't just band together and like hold hands and run to the sunset. No. Like one tribe would literally just rape, kill, pillage this other tribe to take over. And the person who would do that was like this psychopathic, the one who was just willing to be like, hey, I'll fucking kill, rape, do whatever it takes so we can take over and over and over, so our empire just grows and grows and grows. You know, you saw that with the Roman Empire. They did they weren't like, hey, let's just like grab a smoothie and like get together and be like, Okay, w we'll we'll just be friends and w co no. It was like by it was by force and these people rose up, you know. There's Caesar, right. Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Caesar was cutthroat, right? you know. Lisa: Right. Ken: But the thing is, it's like there's these people have always the I think the modern interpretation of it of it is you know, being a captain of industry, being very successful, hustle culture, and you know, rising to the top, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: cream with a crop, rise to top. Lisa: No, the shit what raises floats to the top, right? Ken: Well the thing is it's that's what you think, right? But it's we've been taught for years. We grew up in a generation where they told it's like, well, hustle culture, right? You wanna get to the top? Can't be the nice guy, right? Nice guys Lisa: Mm. Ken: finish last. And we've been taught this for quite a while. I think there's only just recently that this some sort of like splintering with that kind of thought process, right? Someone that's very just s sociopathic, psychopathic, or even just like a narcissist rises to power. I think there's actually like a there's a I would you want to even say like awakening of that kind of thing is like that's not a good thing, is it? Like we used to always admire these people, right, for being captains of industry. Now it's you know, it life's a little harder, the economy's not doing well. And it's not just in this country, right? It's in every country around the world. So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: everyone, I think is the stress on everyone is waking them up to this kind of personality type. do you really want to be that person you see on television tell you, you know, we might have made a lot of money on the stock market, right? Or or through the roof. That's you know, like our stock prices go through the roof. Because yeah, yeah, the Dow is up to fifty thousand. And then we're like, Lisa: The Dow is up fifty thousand points. The Dow is up fifty thousand points. Uh-huh. Ken: so then why are you cutting fifteen percent of your workforce? you know, don't care. Don't care about the people working there. Because, you know, we need to make more profit. Yeah, what kind of people Lisa: Mm. Ken: thinks that's okay? It was like, and it comes to certain point that where, people around the world are being a little stressed. Like being the screws are turning tighter and tighter. And then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I think there's people waking up to it. There are still a bunch of people that look at that and be like, I want to be like that. I was like, you know, there's people that love propping up millionaires, billionaires, and stuff like that. There's always gonna be those people. It's kinda like sycophants. But I feel like there's more kind of like a backlash to those people that are, you know, uber wealthy and just uber ruthless right? Lisa: It it's more recent for that one. Ken: Mm-hmm. It's it's definitely it's it's I think it's it's really awakening. If there's an awakening for this because when things are good, you don't question the status quo. It's when things start getting a little bad or even terrible. Then you start, hey, something's a little wrong here, right? And then this is getting way, way more attention. I think this is I think just books and studies about narcissism has been kind of like exploding. the only worry is that some people see this as like, yeah, this is a buzzword. Why is everybody thinks they're a narcissist now. Everybody's accusing someone of being a narcissist. Well, I guess, but it's it's good to have at least studies and dialogue about this, right? Because there was a time where nobody talked about this and that that wasn't a good time either. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I know what you mean, and we can't really be gaslit anymore into believing that it's like, I'm self made and all this shit and then you find out they're not self made. They're fucking Neppo babies. They got a lot of help behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah. Ken: Yeah, that's the biggest that's the biggest lie, right? There's a lot of people that used to go by this narrative where you know what? I lived in a, you know, single bedroom apartment. I spent how much money a week? I could survive with this. And then you realize, yeah, they have a nest egg that they could rely upon, or they got like a loan from their dad, like a million, two million dollars. It's like, yeah, normal people don't have that, okay? It's nice that Lisa: Yeah. Ken: you made something out of that, which is great. But don't say you came from nothing. It's it's that lie. It's a great lie, right? People used to love that story. People still do. People love the American Dream story, right? But then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you figure out, it's it's kind of a lie. It's embellishment. And now people Lisa: Yeah. Ken: are getting mad we're talking about just like people were just mad at Neppel babies, right? that person's a Nepple baby. Lisa: Yeah. In that baby that's another buzzword. But they you know, we've been gaslit so long about the self made person, like yeah right. And that's another thing I wanna talk to you about, like the word gaslight. Like it it goes into that and actually shows clips of like the you know the black and white movie, I think it was in the twenties, it's called Gas Lamp and how yeah. Yeah, right. Ken: Mm-hmm. I think that's where it came from, right? The terminology is like gas lamp, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, he would just change the gas to make her go crazy. But I feel like it should have explained it better because there's so many people I know and they confuse it for lying or they go like, What does gaslighting mean? Is it you're not wait, so I'm not being lied to, but the gaslight it's just like I feel like you should have done a better job of defining it. Dr. Ramani has a really great definition where it's just like you're denying someone's reality. It doesn't have to be malicious. it's weird to just give it an example but no definition, which I thought that I yeah. Ken: Mm-hmm. Well, it it yeah. It's well we could we could kinda kinda try to define it. you'll know it when you feel it, right? When you finally learn and you get out of it. It's the idea that it was it W. Keith Campbell, who's a professor who like chimes in on the documentary, right? he said something that really resonated with me that's like, you know. It takes time for someone that's in that situation to figure it out and he figure out like people especially if you encounter this in your childhood, it takes a while for an illusion to wear off. You grow up thinking that a lot of things are a certain way until you awaken and then a lot of the stuff is not true. It's kind of like my situation, right? I remember telling you that a lot of the situation with my dad and my family. I used to perceive it a certain way because my dad would just shape the narrative. And then I would ask family members, family friends, and they're like, that never happened. And as as as we peel the onion, we figure out, you've been kind of put in this situation where you're taught to think a certain way. You're living a sort of, you know, I think what it is like a like a like a kind of like a shadow play, right? You're thinking life is a certain way. because your your narcissistic parent framed it a certain way. So you you're taught to believe a certain way, and until you like get therapy and you know snap out of it, takes a while, right? it there the well the idea of gaslighting, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: A lot of it I feel like the definitive term for gaslighting is You having an emotional reaction to something and you know the person that's a narcissist would just be discounting that or not acknowledging that. not validating that that emotion. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you know, I feel a certain way, I feel sad that you said that. It was like, well you shouldn't, because I didn't say anything wrong. It's that's pretty much it, right? It's like, well, I did yeah, I didn't you're just too sensitive. It's like stuff like that. It's not validating your feelings of I feel hurt. I feel attacked. I feel sad that you said that. They'll just be like, well just you know, suck it up, Buttercup. It's kinda like that. there's a whole generation of kids that probably got that. You're too sensitive, you know, it's no big Lisa: I heard that one. Ken: deal. It's all the response we all know the responses to, you know, the gaslighting thing, That's the that's the responses. Like, yeah, you just it's like Dr. Omni's like things where she like lists them off like one by one and you're like, I got that one, I got that one, the guy got the hot one before. well, it's pretty much you know, it's not validating your behavior, your emotions. And that's pretty much what gaslighting is, right? A and Lisa: Yes. Ken: after a certain part point, I remember you telling me that You couldn't you don't know what was real, right? when your mom you're living with your mom and you kind of I think that term you said was come into your body. you don't know what the your relationship and what's actually real around you anymore. It's like you don't trust your you don't trust your instincts anymore. I think that's what you said. see I do r I do remember things that you tell me. Lisa: Yeah, the whole point. I never said you didn't. Ken: Well the thing is it's like I I yeah. So it's like I remember you saying that and I was like, that's exactly it, isn't it? you don't trust your thought process, you don't trust your emotions, you don't trust your yeah, you you Lisa: Your gut, your intuition. Ken: now you're thinking you don't trust your intuition, so you have future relationships with people and now you're just thinking you're sensitive. I'm a sensitive person. And then you know what the side effect of that is, is like you're just gonna become, you know, cynical with just how the world works, You're you don't trust people anymore. And that's really the side effect of it. You start building a callus. You're not gonna trust anybody that follows that kind of narcissistic behavior that you saw in your parents. That's just how it is. Or at least that's how we view it, right? Some people might fall into Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: that trap again, thinking that, yeah, this is just how I am. How they treat me is normal. I'm just I just blow it out of proportion. And that's how they think. We Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: kind of snapped out of it, so we're like, yeah, we just don't trust people anymore. We're very skeptical of people now. Lisa: And I think it it also sets you up for further maybe mistreatment of other people because you start doubting your own memory, your sanity, yeah. Ken: Mm, and plus you're you're you're perpetrating that behavior 'cause you think that behavior's okay. So you're gonna use it again on someone, right? Lisa: Yeah. I was like, I'm just being too sensitive. They made a joke at my expense, which is Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: really, you know, like a I'm just being too sensitive. Like you end up self-gaslighting and it'll Ken: Mm-hmm. safgal lighting is like a thing, yeah. Lisa: it really sets you up for mistreatment later on in life. And I don't that's one other thing, definitely a consequence of a narcissistic parent. Ken: You self gaslight or you become the gaslighter in the future. So pick one. Lisa: Yeah. Do you wanna be Lee or his twin? Yeah. Ken: It's kinda like that, right? It's like are you gonna be Lee or his twin? Like his twin is just like, you know, maybe he's he's has the the side effects from it and sometimes he might not trust his intuition either, right? he considers himself the good twin, you know, the bees one probably. And then the other Lisa: Mm. Ken: one is like Lee is like, Well, I know this playbook. I c I still can't stop it though. 'Cause it's it's it's entrenched in this personality. Good luck trying to like block that part that's natural to you. It's natural to you now because you know, you spent thirty years honing that craft of you being a narcissist. Good luck trying to like cut that off of your life. It's not like a mole that grows. It's just if you cut it off, it's like a wart. It grows back. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Yeah, the wart analogy is Lisa: So Ken: a thing where it's like the virus is in deep. You call it a virus, it's in deep. That infection is in deep. You cutting it off on the surface doesn't get rid of the problem. And that's like the perfect analogy for anybody that has kind of like a, you know, an inner kind of like turmoil or personality defect, right? You can't just, you know, just one day just exorcise that thing away or cut it off. It takes a lot of it's probably gonna take another thirty years for that to like resolve itself. It spent thirty years to like hone it. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, we'd end up like the guy they interviewed, his name is Doug Bugle. So he yeah. Ken: That's an interesting name. Lisa: The guy went through hell with his covert narcissist ex wife. So what happened is like I guess he had a son. basic she treated them so horribly that Eventually I guess she discarded him. She like she didn't need him more. She was just using him, mistreating the son. And after she left him, he was listening to like a podcast or the radio or something. And it described narcissism. And then he's like, This is exactly everything I went through. Like he couldn't believe how it just described like the love bombing and the discarding at the end and the light bulb went off. You know, and then she ended up falsely accusing him of abuse. so it just it's a testament to how important a documentary like this is. and I wonder, you know, he probably grew up with narcissism being normalized. That's why as an adult and exp he even exposed his son, but he seems very remorseful that he ex like he even said, My son told me thank God without wretched woman is out of our lives now, you know. like she would come home and he would just he and the kid would just be like pretend they were doing something else, like run away. You know. So Ken: Yeah. It's even worse it's even worse that when you're the man and you're the victim of narcissistic abuse from your wife, because it's kinda like the old adage like, yeah, men can't be abused. What are you talking about? domestic abuse from a woman? Boulder dash. It's even worse, right? If he comes out with that, like yeah, it's like it it takes so he literally had to build like a case for it, right? It took him like years to, you know, I think he wrote books about it. It's like studying this stuff. It's like Who's gonna believe a grown man gets abused by his wife? Right? Lisa: Yeah, it a lot of these men, they self gaslight like, I'm just being a little pussy, you know. Ken: Well it's yeah, it's that it's it's a terrible situation. you know. just recently, you know, Mr. Mr. Mana Manosphere got arrested with his brother. I'm not gonna say who it is. You probably people probably already Lisa: yeah. Ken: know who that is. But yeah, it's like, yeah, someone telling you you're not a man when you get manipulated by your woman like this. I was like, Well it's very manly to come to a conclusion like that and stay strong, you know, for your family and stuff like that, right? 'Cause it's it's trying to stay strong when people are saying, like, yeah, you Saying otherwise, right? They're discounting that this abuse happened to him probably. That's a bad place to be. Lisa: so Ken, I have a hot take. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I think Johnny Depp, he was abused by Amber Heard. I'm not supposed to say that 'cause I'm supposed to support all women, but I honestly believe she was the aggressor and he was abused by her. And I know I yeah. Ken: Yeah. And I don't think it's as hot take as you think. I think some people are trying to push the narrative that he's he equally abused her, which it's hard to say. it seems that she if it's all the claims that he made against her, if any of that stuff is true, she's a monster. Lisa: I know. Ken: this is a interesting tidbit. past week our podcast has been getting a lot of influx from the UK. guess which episode they're listening to? Lisa: come on, they even have to know their their foodish shit, right? Ken: Well the thing is is like we don't even talk about that in one did we talk about that in the in our ep second episode so our s so people that don't know, our second episode we were talking about the Beckhams. you know, the relationship between, mom and dad and you know Brooklyn. so, you know, with the you know, disaster with our provider, Pretty much we had to re-release a couple episodes. but that was fine. Lisa's been pretty busy. I've been pretty busy too s to record like full episodes. But it's good to listen to like some of the stuff that we've recorded. we've been, editing a lot of the you know audio. First couple episodes were really rough, the audio. so we f so we went in and fixed that. I know for that episode I removed a lot of the cuss words recussing out of a storm, but I re-released it recently, so we have it on there and it's doing quite well. So I think the British people are listening to it. And you know, since the World Cup just happened, you know, David Beckham's everywhere. pretty soon we're gonna record Are we gonna record it re-record anything more about the Beckhams? it seems like it's it's interesting, right? yeah. That's all I have to say about that. Lisa: I think we might have exhausted the buckums, honestly. Ken: You know, it it's not like anything's new come out recently, right, with the Beckhams. I snipped together episode like with a couple little like snippets from multiple episodes about Gordon Ramsay chiming in and stuff like that, but it's gotta release you know, sometime around now. So yeah, that's gonna be up. So hopefully we try to ride the coattails of people what people were looking at, we should really follow like algorithms and stuff like that Lisa: Mm-hmm. So I did want to mention this should be like the first half. I think the second half of our review of the documentary. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Cause I have a lot to say, but if I say it, I know it's gonna give the the film away. And so I'm just thinking this will be like the first half. And the second Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: half will be the spoilers because I feel like I just can't talk about it without giving it away. So Ken: Okay. Lisa: so we can just kinda end it here for this is the first part of the Narcissist Playbook documentary. This is our review and this is part one yeah. And stay tuned for part two. Yeah. Ken: Well Lisa you can well Lisa you can't just you can't just end it here, without like a you know, a palate cleanser. We always do with the palate cleanser. Just so the Lisa: yeah. Ken: peop so we don't destroy the listener's psyche with all this harsh, harsh talk. Lisa: well I think this film is very important. It should be seen by everybody. you know, a lot of film festivals actually rejected it. They said there was no audience for it. these like Ken: Are they nuts? Are they nuts? This is like a this is like a hot topic now. Are they nuts? Lisa: You know, a lot of movie producers and TV producers are narcissists themselves, as I've noticed. So Ken: There a lot I think a lot of them are out of touch. That's really what it is. It's like Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: how many movies remakes of movies could you do? And people tell you that this is probably not gonna work, and still have the kind of confidence to produce that kind of movie. That's some confidence right there, right? Lisa: yeah. yeah, I hope this movie the fact that like people were waiting in line you know, outside of the UCLA movie theater to see the like the premiere. You know, Dr. Romney was in the she was in the audience. And you know, a lot of other I don't know. Ken: Which theater was this, by the way? 'Cause I used y you know, I used to work there. I used to work there, so you know. Lisa: I didn't even know UCLA had a theater. I was too poor to go to UCLA. Ken: which Which one? Which theatre? Lisa: I don't know. I can hear you d I hear you typing. Ken: UCLA has a coup UCLA has a couple of theaters. Are you like talking are are you talking about the on campus one or off campus one? Lisa: Did you say the theater? And I was like, do have a theater? Yeah that's nice. Ken: Lisa, UCLA the campus is huge. It's it's a s it's a size of a large town. Lisa: Okay. Ken: There's probably more people living there than some towns in the Midwest. Lisa: Right, yeah. Ken: In that in that like two mile radius, there's probably more people that live there, like twenty thousand people, than you know, a lot of places. Probably in Montana. Lisa: Mm-hmm, I can see that. Ken: Well, you know, like there's more people living in LA than there is Montana, so people don't I do you think people understand that? Just how many people there are in big cities? Lisa: No Ken: I don't know. I was just I don't know, I was just I was just watching since this is like a you know this is gonna be our like a little palate cleanser, I was watching the World Cup and Spain winning. Taking that picture. Did you see that picture they were taking? Lisa: Which one? Ken: you know, like they're the they were handed the trophy by someone and you know the someone just wouldn't get out a shot. Lisa: yeah. Ken: Homie wouldn't get out of the shot. And then people were like, Did FIFA Photoshop him or AI him out? Lisa: I don't know. Ken: I don't know, it's by this time the World Cup's over, congratulations to Spain for winning the World Cup. Lisa: Woohoo. Ken: Very strong team. I think you know, someone said that there something badly about them a couple days ago or even a week ago that, you know, they're a lost cause. But people in Spain be very happy. I think they're already like they they already took the cut back and they're celebrating millions in the street. hopefully everybody's okay over there. Be very happy and you know for a little while just enjoy that. It's a huge deal. in we live in America, so For us is like, well, what's the World Cup to us, really? We hosted it, but it's like, what's the World Cup to us? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: To other countries, it's like it's the thing. It's the thing. Lisa: It's their superable. Ken: Yeah, it's their Super Bowl, pretty much. J but just think about like a whole country liking one team. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: We don't I don't even think we kinda get that thing in Olympics, right? But that's that extent to the American pride like a national kind of thing, support a country. even the Olympics I don't think is like that far. there's still a lot of people that don't like you know, it's what's the Olympics? we win, we lose, whatever. World Cup's like a different animal, I feel like. for a lot of countries, it's especially the ones that are competitive. They have a chance of winning it, it's it's a huge deal. you know. Poor England, we're we're running those like repeat episodes about the Beckhams, you know. England lost in the semifinals and very sad. And then they took it out on France. Lisa: When here's something funny, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: if I don't know which team to root for, I just go, Okay, which country has the best cuisine? Which one has the better cuisine? And I go, Okay. Not England, definitely not England. No Ken: So not not the not not England. Gosh. They lose by default. Lisa: every time. Ken: you must have loved it when it was like you know, Mexico versus England, right? Lisa: my god. I was yeah, of course I saw that. Mm-hmm. Ken: Guess who has the better food there? Well, at least he'll we lost, but at least we still got the food. Lisa: yeah, we'll s we'll always be the ch world champions of food. So so okay. Well on that note, this is part one again, like as I s as I said, I don't know, I repeated it. But anyways, please stay tuned for part two. That one's gonna be juicy because I will reveal, I will spill the tea as the kids say. Ken: if you we could only just get like a nice little sponsorship from them or something like that. Lisa: We'll keep working on it. Ken: Someone, right? We're not big enough for people to be like, you know what, I'm gonna s plunk my butt onto your podcast. Not not yet, not yet. Lisa: Not yet, we're getting close. Ken: it's it's been growing at a steady pace, so Lisa: I know. We have good views. Ken: I know, steady pace, steady pace. Eventually. Lisa: Alright. Alright, Kenneth. that's it for now. And we'll see you the next time. Alright, bye guys. Ken: Bye Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey Ken and welcome guys. This is part two of the Narcissist Playbook documentary. This this is a little different because the first one we gave, it was a a review of it, but this one, the disclaimer, there will be spoilers. That's it. I if you don't wanna know what happens, you don't know what the twist is, the surprise in the middle of the movie, you might want to shut this off. You know, wait until after you've seen the movie to to listen to this podcast. But I feel like the last time there's so much I wanted to say, but I'm like, I can't say it without giving it away. And but flat out, I do want to talk about the spoilers because I have so much to say about that. And Ken, he finally watched the documentary today. Woo-hoo! Ken: Woohoo. So, they only I di I wasn't an early adopter, so I only had the movie for two days. I might watch it once more before it expires and maybe get it when it comes out, but yeah, I watched it finally. as someone that has watched a lot of documentaries in his life, this this one definitely it's a very kind of narrative driven. there's one overarching kind of storyline that you they present early in the story. I thought they sprinkled in a lot of kind of other like characters into the documentary subjects where they would kind of put their life story, their encounters with narcissists, or if they're a narcissist themselves, have they been kind of like living with that and coping with it, right? kind of early in the documentary you see kind of who the overarching characters are. there's investigator in that you're introduced to at the beginning of documentary that becomes kinda the overarching kinda like what would they say? Like It's like an overarching story, so it's like it does like a word for it. Is it arc? Arc would be the word I'm thinking. Lisa: Is it Ark? I I'm tryna I'm having like a hard time trying to figure out what you're trying to say, but Ken: But you know how like there's there's like there's there's like television shows and there's like stories and then but there's like one overarching theme that kind Lisa: It Ken: of is is happening. That's this is the main integral part of the narrative. Whereas you could in a documentary you could don't necessarily have to have everybody's story like intertwine with each other as would like fiction. But you definitely sense that Lisa: Yeah. Hmm. Ken: despite all these people talking, there's one overarching thing as trying to get to. It's Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: trying to tell one major story. One major kinda like kinda like when you talked about twist, there's one major kind of like plot line that's going on that this person that's this reporter is trying to get across. There's this investigation that w that you kinda it doesn't get to until maybe like halfway through the documentary. So once you hit that point you understand why certain people were presented the way they were. Because it's kinda odd that they were telling you about this reporter that was gonna kinda investigate about this this narcissist that was kind of committing these like alleged like crimes that are happening against this victim, right? Lisa: Yeah, they had the female the blonde one, right? I forgot her name. But she's investigating you well, how does this tie in? I think that's probably what you're trying to figure out. so I do have to ask, did you figure out the twist? Ken: In terms of figuring out the twists, like I I it's because you told me there was gonna be like a twist, so I was looking for it, right? So Lisa: Okay. Yeah, like me. I was looking for it too. Yeah. Ken: so you kinda figure there's someone that's in the documentary that's like this is oddly this person's oddly very focused on and very detailed in terms of the narrative. Much more so than anybody else. So when you look Lisa: Yeah. Ken: at when you finally see that subject, you're like, if there's a twist, it has to involve that person, right? And that's where I was like, okay, that this person is okay, very it's it's Lisa: Yeah. Did Sam give you the ick? Ken: Yeah, so they might as well say who it is, right? It's it's it's it's Sam Bankin. V it's Sam Baknan. Backnin. So it's Sam Becknin. Lisa: Yeah, this is a spoiler. Yeah. Vanc Venkin Vecnin. Dude, that guy he gave me the ick. my god. And the you know the the part where he's just so fucking arrogant. when he said, I have an IQ 190 When he said that, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I literally laughed out loud. I was like, what? You do not. I was like thinking like, unless you're like severely that's like autism level. Like if you have an IQ of 190, there's no fucking way. usually when there's that level of like grandiosity, I'm like, okay, this dude is off. it's funny because Mark Vicente, who's the director, he escaped a cult called Nexium. The leader was Keith Raniere and I remember in The Vow, they talked about Keith Raniere He claimed that he was in the Guinness World Record of having the highest IQ of like one two forty or something like that. Something really ridiculous. that's that's what ring up Bell. I'm like, what, is he a cult leader or something? Because in when those grandiose kind of like he like and it seemed like he really believed it too. That's when I was like, okay, this so something up with this dude. And also the the just juxtaposition of the female reporter, the blonde, pretty blonde reporter, and him Ken: and her name is and her name is I'm sorry if I butcher this. I'm not like a she has a s she's a s she's a Scottish investigative reporter. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: of course in America we don't know much about her, but she is pretty accomplished. So her name is Isla Troquar? Troquar? I'm just butchering it, but I like but she does say that her name is Isla, and then that's pretty much so anybody that's in Scotland or UK probably knows about this person. But this is kind of like our introduction to her, right? So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it's very interesting that ve in the very beginning they're already talking about her kind of like investigative like journalism in this kind of documentary about narcissism. And you're trying to figure out, wait, why is sh why is she here? Why is this reporter here? And you're introduced to the one of the victims. And so what how does this tie together? And you're like, you're trying to unpack it, and it's like, okay. There the twist has to be something to do with this, right? Lisa: and that right after like they cut right it to Sam and I'm like, this this is related. Like they're ta it's like is she talking about him? this guy was terrible, and I'm like it has to be Sam because when I mean, there's a few things I wrote down that gave me the ick about him. Were the first one the the I have a 190 IQ right away. I was like, okay, this dude is like pathologically wrong. There's like there's something pathological about this dude. Okay, so he's like the Richard Brandon guy, he's like, we've been friends for years and he's my buddy and w we've been getting along so good, even though he's a self confessed narcissist and I'm like, You could be friends with a narcissist? you Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: j it's huh, right? Like Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: if To have a friendship with a narcissist you'll always have to subjugate your own needs because they never see people as equals. People are either above Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: them or below them. And if they see you as an equal, they have to take you down a peg. and like you know like when guys guy friends, you would know this, guys Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: like to tease each other a lot. That's how men bond. Ken: Yes. Lisa: whereas women women compliment each other as a way to bond. So with men it's the constant teasing, but like the teasing that Sam would do, it's like, I'm better. Like I'm like, he really thinks he's better than S because it's like, Richard, yeah, he's cool. Like but there's the teasing is not I don't know how to say it Ken: it's not like a friendly kind of teasing, it is is it? Lisa: It yeah, i i there's use a f there's a friendly teasing and there there's it there's a one upping. That's the Ken: Yes. Lisa: word. He was constantly one upping Richard. And I was like, Okay, this reminds me of other episode we talked about Gina, remember? The constant one upping? Mm-hmm. Ken: Mm-hmm. And we're talking about the one-upping, and we have friends that are one uppers. And it's not necessarily that one uppers is a sign of narcissism, but it's a very interesting trait that he has in terms of what kind of narcissist he is, right? it's that one upping nature, it's always putting him ahead of everybody else. He has an associate, they seem to be like kind of equals, right? They're like they're like a package deal, Richard and Sam. they're introduced kind of like a package deal, they have like this kind of like a seminar that they happen to document. It does seem that it focus a lot more about Sam more than Richard. So you're kind of seeing that there's something a little kind of like off, right? They're focusing a lot on Sam and there's there's there's a reason why. We figure out why the reason why. 'Cause he's the focal point of the documentary. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And and even Richard, I think he has know he says that like Sam is his friend, it's kind of like associate, right? even if you're you you run a business or a kind of like a partnership with someone that you know is a narcissist, but it's kind of You kinda accept kind of like the ribbing or the kind of like the one up husband ship and kinda like the narcissist behavior as just that's just that's just a gossip doing business, right? Lisa: Mm. Ken: they're friends in a way where it's like, okay, we're business partners. we talk a lot, we try to share a lot about like kind of like our our mission statement Yeah, it's just their business. They're business associates. So I think because of that, I think Richard was very guarded even even when he had a relationship with him and when it took a turn for the worse, he totally saw like the bad stuff, The bad stuff was really bad. Lisa: So yeah, you wanna give away the twist? Ken: Yeah, I think I think we've already like laid it out there what the twist was. Lisa: Mm-hmm. So basically, Isla, the pretty blonde journalist, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she's interviewing this this this lady, and her face is blurred out. So, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: you know, to keep her anonymity, which I totally get. As Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: she talks about this one person who's been very abusive to her, and it started out as like she sought his help because she wanted help mental help. And What happened was that he ended up abusing her and these doing these horrible psychological games with her. So she talks about being abused and she talks about Sam. She reveals his name that Sam was the one who's abusing her, and Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it comes out, Richard finds out, and he's like, What the fuck? he realizes this guy's been a monster the whole time. Like the person he thought was his friend really isn't his friend. I know he sometimes you want to see the best in people, especially when they're your friends. But then you you find out stuff about a f a friend that's so horrific Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: that you just can't you know, especially when we they've been friends for years is what he was talking about. And one thing about Sam I don't know, I need to ask you about this, because now that you've seen the film, He's being interviewed and he goes, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I've never been loved or what does he say, I've never loved. No one can help me with my emptiness and can someone give me a manual like he's it's very dramatic. Well not then he just starts crying 'cause he's like envies people who can feel depression and normal quote unquote normal feelings or whatever. Did did you buy it or did you not? Ken: you know what? Just based on how the documentary was made, by is it Mark Vicente? Lisa: Yes. Ken: So the way the documentary was framed by Mark Vicente, it it makes it so it's really hard to accept his behavior as genuine because it literally, earlier in the documentary leading up to this, he's telling you the playbook. This is pretty much it. Like a lot of The narcissist playbook is about Sam. Because Sam details how he treats others, right? How he treats kind of people in his life. He kind of talks about himself as superior. He enjoys not being able to kind of like feel empathy the way other people do. he sees it more as a as a understanding for other people's behavior and how they act, and he uses that to his advantage, right? In Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: romantic relationships, in terms of his scam that he's been running. He's even tells the camera earlier that he's Able to manipulate people and the more kind of hurt or injured they are, that one type of person would just seek help and try to get try to fix it. He's looking for the person that's self-destructive, right? he even put it in a way where it's like, yeah, I'm looking for the person that's like has their life kind of like as a dumpster fire and seeking that kind of suicide, for lack of a better term. He even uses the term suicide. Lisa: Yeah yeah. Ken: And I'm not sure he seems and you s and you see it. It seems like he has some sort of weird kind of kink or gratification for that word. Someone someone's so obsessed with me, and so I'm manipulating them so well that they're gonna kill themselves. I get a kick out of that. For lack of better term, he didn't say that exactly, but that's pretty much what he's kinda yeah, perfect. Lisa: Yes. Yeah. You're paraphrasing, yeah. Ken: So when he said that, he even said that you can't trust me. He's almost telling you the, you know, the what's that thing about the the frog and the scorpion? He's telling you he's a scorpion. He's telling Lisa: Mm. Ken: you that I will sting you. That if Yeah, my mannerisms and everything that I say, I'm I'm playing it at such a like a high level. I'm playing 4D chess that I'm that what if you see me and I'm showing you emotion and I'm crying. It's not genuine, I'm playing a game. so back to the point where you're like saying that he kind of s is trying to get you to like be sympathetic towards his his like plight, right? He has he kinda has a lack of connection with people. So he starts crying, right? 'Cause he's he said he's kinda trying to frame that he's damaged goods. But it's like, no, Mark Vicente kinda framed it in a way where it's like, he's playing you right now. So it's it's really hard as a viewer to be like, huh, that's very interesting that they did it that way. Because they Lisa: Mm. Ken: that easily had him kinda go through that that scene where he's crying and he's trying to make you feel sorry for him. If they put that in the beginning of the movie, it would have a different effect, right? Lisa: Hmm. you know what? I didn't even think about that. Huh. Ca yeah, cause if you'd be crying in the the beginning Uh-huh. Ken: Unfortunately, and it's already introduced him as someone that's already telling you his playbook. He's telling you what he's gonna do. So when he actually does it, it's almost like, look, he's he's acting. So I at the whole time I'm like watching that and like I'm watching to see his mannerisms like this man's a very good actor. He's a terrific actor. Cause he's like he even tell I think he early in the in in the documentary he says, I could probably cry on command. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh-huh. Ken: Great. Great. It's like, man. So this is this is not I don't think this is a coincidence. I think I really think this is how they framed a documentary. And it's brilliant, Lisa: To me Ken: by the way. It's a brilliant, it's brilliant to frame it that way because it definitely paints him as this guy's as a villain. Lisa: yeah, he even has the villain eyebrows. You you like to look at like people's eyebrows and you're like, they have villain eyebrows. He for sure has them. Ken: well he's telling you he's scorpion, so how can you feel sad for the scorpion, right? It's he's telling you that I fake it. I fake emotion, I fake crying. So it's like at this point he's crying, I was like, Okay. If you watch this in like kind of a other movie, you know it's like no no no no. He's playing he's playing possum. It's playing possum right there, right? He wants you to feel sorry for him. don't turn your back on him, he's gonna he's gonna do something to you. Don't you get that like kind of thing? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Lisa: Mm-hmm. Trying to get your guard down, and you know what? I did not buy it. And here's why. It seems super incongruous to how he was, right? Because with the narcissists I know, they Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: do not like to show any kind of vulnerability, especially crying. Like that shows a vulnerability and they hate it. And I will say this. There's a saying, if you want to test a narcissistic parent, specifically, I don't know why they say that, cry in front of them and see what they do. especially like when I would cry in front of my mom or whatever, she would just be like, Don't think about that, or it'll make you feel bad. Or she would just get really mad. recently I had an aunt who has It's not Down syndrome, but it's a form of mental disability who went to live with my mom for a few months. my mom was very abusive to her and my aunt is very, very sensitive. Like she cries over little things. And my aunt will start crying and then my mom would basically just mock her for crying. Just really cruel and just really because it makes her uncomfortable. to see someone cry. so for Sam to do that, I was like, if he's a real narcissist or whatever, sociopath, psychopath, cluster B, whatever, this guy would not be crying like that unless it was manipulative. You know, he's yeah, trying to get you to feel sorry for them. And they say with sociopaths, they've asked them, what is it that you want the most in the world? And the do you know what they say? For people to feel sorry for me. they're easier to manipulate. Once you feel Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: sorry for them, they like, I can get people to do whatever the fuck I want. And I can see that with Sam. Ken: he kinda flips that thing, right? It's like that different type of narcissist that Dr. Ramani talks about. he's uber confident. Like he's listening all his credentials, either probably made up, but he's very like proud of his his intellect, his ability to manipulate people, his kind of his his kind of knowledge. He really puts hangs his hat on that. But once it becomes like a thing where people kind of are kind of staring at them, trying to try to like p back him into a corner, immediately he flips into the victim, right? Lisa: yeah. I noticed that. Yeah. Ken: You see that, right? But he he he flipped it he flipped the switch immediately. So you're looking at it, it was like Okay, so what so what was he he trying to pull here? This is a guy that apparently has no vulnerabilities. He's playing a game. That's why Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: if you didn't know if he wasn't so kind of so eager to give us the playbook, we might have fell for it, right? If we didn't know about how he how he operated, this would have you you w you would have thought that it was like, this guy's genuinely feeling empty inside, he's kind of doesn't like his plight. But no, it's a way to get out of a situation. Lisa: Yeah. it didn't make sense to me, right? If you're saying I don't feel anything, I'm empty, I don't I and then you start crying. Obviously you have feelings. Right? If you Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: i you obviously you're feeling something, but he's like, But I feel nothing. Like, you feel nothing but you're crying, so you feel something. It didn't make any sense to me. To me th the whole thing, like I saw right through his bullshit. And mm-hmm. Ken: Well, it's like the sociopathic behavior, right? It's like he understands emotions and he's manipulating people based on how people react. Like a normal person react to something. But he's not normal. So when if he c if he's crying and he's telling you that he he cries in a in a way where he's like, Okay, I could probably do it on command. Why are we trusting that if he cries, if he if he says that he's kind of like sad or upset or kind of like feel sorry for me Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: he's kinda lost that by giving us all his like behaviors and his like you know he's he's very confident where so what happened, right? It's it's it's he flipped a switch. So it's it's doesn't seem like a natural kind of thing. Lisa: Mm-hmm. It it doesn't seem natural. You're right. That's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: a mmm. I And yes, you were saying the movie does focus mostly on him, out of all the other narcissists. Because you know, remember you saw Lee, there was that girl. I the one the one who's like painting, and she's a narcissist, and she said she her childhood was like very similar to Mommy Dearest. And she and her Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: sister would watch Mommy Dearest and drink wine and like laugh, like, ha ha that's our childhood, how funny. But like, you know, it fucked her up. But she's only in for like f three minutes? Yeah. Ken: they gave her a minute. They gave her a minute. And they never brought back up again. I was like Lisa: Yeah, th I y that's a yes, I hope that in if there's like sequels to this or whatever, they go back because I feel like I needed to know more. I wanted to know more about her not just you get her backstory, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: but her you don't get her playbook. It's just like she's just vindictive. It's like, you are my you know, I play the long game she's a very obviously a very retaliatory person. But I I wish you di delve more in all the the other he they'd say there's four different narcissists he interviews. I don't know. I feel like that there's a lot more that you could do. Like you could do deep dives into like each one. It could be its own movie, I feel like. but it the move the film itself is great. Like it needs to be shown. And every every streaming platform, even though they all the streaming platforms they said there's no audience for this. And I'm like, uh-huh, whatever. Ken: I don't I don't tr I don't trust how like these people determine that because this is why certain things do so well and they're like, my gosh, how why did it do so well? It was like because it would have done well, you just didn't give it a chance because it doesn't follow your kind of like algorithm or kind of like past knowledge, right? They rather Lisa: it Ken: they a lot of the studios like a safe thing, right? It's infuriating. Lisa: want to do they just wanna do Fast and Furious forty seven or whatever and they're like, Okay, this is my safe bet. we all know the studios are super risk adverse. that's why almost every movie out is like a sequel, remake, adaptation. Ken: it's not just ri it's not just risk adverse it's it's also we wanna tie this into just how the narcissists operate, A lot of these kind of like like movies and like studio execs, They think they know better. There's some sort of like narcissism there, right? There th these people think that, I'm just gonna I know what people want. I tell you what to make the movie about, I select the movie, it's gonna be a hit. They just are so confident that that's gonna be the thing, And even if there's things that fail, it doesn't it doesn't faze them. They'll just blame someone else for it, right? Lisa: yeah, yeah. They Ken: Well you I just wanna it's like okay, you we talk about like studio heads, look at Harvey Weinstein. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And that's only one person right there. And it it kind of lists like people. you see there's like a montage of like celebrities, That it kind of like focuses on. It doesn't say per se that calls them out immediately. But you remember who was in that that kind of like montage? It like Kanye. It's like P. Diddy. it's interesting that Lisa: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Harvey Weinstein. Ken: they picked the okay. Very interesting that they picked those like those topics, right? And then it kinda goes into Marilyn Manson, his relationship with Ever and Rachel Wood. Lisa: Real mm. You know what's funny you you bring that up, because that's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: another thing I have in my notes. Mark Vicente had a filmmaking partner. His name's like Scott Altamar. I don't know how to spread let's call him Scott. So They were saying that they would pitch it to Hollywood executives and it's funny that they would realize like, Hey, these are the same people we're making the documentary about. Ken: Exactly. That's why I was that's why I was thinking that you're gonna go with that. It's like okay. That's like what it's hard to pitch it to someone that's like, hey, I think this thing's about me and I don't like it. Narcissists don't like being called out as being narcissists, right? Even says that in a documentary. We know that in in in our lives. That's pretty much Lisa: Mm. Ken: f declaring war, isn't it? You wanna have a fight, just just blast them as you're a narcissist. Whew, instant fight. Lisa: my god. A narc. my god. I've done that. I've made that mistake. I've walked into that rake. Fuck. that it'll incite a rage. It's like, how dare you 'cause they don't they don't think they're narcissists. Ken: Mm mm. Lisa: it's kinda weird. But going back to like the pitches the Hollywood executives, that did not surprise me one fucking bit. Hollywood, I'm like, Hollywood's not gonna receive this documentary with open arms or anything. I I have a theory that most TV and film executives are narcissistic themselves. I've Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: not not just anecdotally, because anecdotally I've known a lot of them. and I'm like, Holy fuck. I I could tell, and I do have this one story, I'm not gonna name names. But it's another tea that I'm gonna spill because, you know, I'm tangentially been involved with the industry. yeah. Tea piping hot. Ken: You're f You're filled with tea, yeah. You're filled with tea. Well yeah, I I think it you should explain to the listener that Lisa has been you know, you you've been a foot into the industry, so you have seen like how it operates a little bit, right? Mm-hmm. Lisa: Yeah. So I I had a friend. Well, I we're still friends. She was dating this big film executive. he was a film producer for this big iconic film from the 90s. I mean if I told you the name, you'd be like, what the fuck? everybody knows it. I mean people still quote it. I guess what happened with him is that his work had dried out. And he was living with her in their apartment in the west side and he was waiting for to get a payout he was selling the rights to this big film. It was like a quarter of a million dollars. And he was waiting for that because he was having so many issues. He couldn't find work, even after being like a producer for this huge film. And he was so nasty to my friend. To the point where they would go hiking and he would just be like berating her and raging at her that she would just be going down the hill crying and people would stop her and say, Hey, are you okay? You know, because he was just so nasty. And And she's like, he's a narcissist, and that's when that was actually my first introduction to nar to the word narcissist, narcissistic personality disorder. And she told me, like, I told him he was a narcissist, and he said, I'm not, because I cured myself of my narcissism. And I'm like, What? But that's before I knew like all that I know now, that you can't be cured from it. I'll text you later the name of the movie. once I text you, you'll be like, fuck, really? And and you'll Google him and you'll see. So I can see why people like that really they they've been running the show for so long and that they do not want to be called out. I mean, we saw this with like documentaries. there's a one documentary, Open Secret. I don't know if you heard about that. It came out like t Ken: I have not. Lisa: probably. I can see why okay, so this The director of it. She also did it was a documentary about the predators in the Catholic Church. it was a really great documentary. She even got an Oscar for it. And that's why they asked her to well, I don't think she was asked. She, I don't know if she brought it on herself, to make this documentary called Open Secret about these teenage actors, he's like a child actors, boys. Pretty much all of them were boys in the documentary. And they come out with their stories about how the predators had preyed on them and done horrible things to them. But we all everybody knows what happened. so after winning an Oscar And then the movie was basically shelved. Hollywood was not having it. the film festivals wouldn't touch it. Distributors were like, I'm not walking into that one. the hypocrisy of like, okay, you're willing to talk about other people's indiscretions, you know, abuses of minors, but when it comes to your own, rather than hold them accountable, you've protect each other. We've seen that. There was another documentary about that. it was a docuseries that came out last year. was it Quiet on the Set? It was I it's on Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: HBO if you wanna watch it. these Ken: That I had I that I did see. Lisa: see exactly. That like Quiet on the Set. It's in that that same vein of people coming out. especially with the big name actors, though was it Drake? Drake Josh, whatever. Saying like this person did this to me. and you see how they protected each other rather than just go to the authorities and and let them know what happened, they just got moved to another studio and protected each other. So this is a little club. So it does not surprise me that this movie it's not gonna be received with open arms. Fuck no. Ken: Yeah, it's it's a long lineage of kind of this Hollywood kind of you know abuse culture. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I remember seeing something with you know, like the the Coreys and then one of the Coreys was actually saying that they they used to have I guess parties for all the kids there and there was s someone that somehow threw the parties. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: The odd thing was, nobody knew where this guy came from. He just suddenly w people he he just became an insider after a while. And he was after a while, this guy's a PDF. This guy's a PDF. Lisa: P D uhhuh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Predator. Yeah. Ken: And it was saying like how it was really big in the 80s, and the reason why a lot of this stuff did not come out was because, you know, this is how the structure of Hollywood was. And also what's the one thing you could tell a kid to get them to shut up about the abuse? you threaten them that's like, if you tell anybody about this, I'm gonna make it so you never get work in this town again. And Lisa: Mm. Ken: your parents aren't gonna like that. And pretty much they've used that on every kid that's like a child actor, and it's worked every single time. Because that's like the biggest fear for a kid, to like let their parents down, right? Because they're they're the breadwinner of the family. They could just imagine how mad their parents would be if they never get work again and they were the cause of it. That's Lisa: Mm. Ken: like the per that's like the perfect that's the perfect deterrent for having kids come out about this. It does a lot of this stuff did not come out until like the people were adults. Probably not even into their twenties, probably into their thirties and forties. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Then it finally came out. Lisa: Yeah, like, you know what's weird? Rose McAwan, you know, Marilyn Manson's ex, she's like, Ken: Uh-huh. Lisa: she when she came out with the Harvey Weinstein allegations, she said, Hollywood has ran like a cult. And I'm like, I could see that. And that's why unfortunately, I this film, you have to show that it's getting this kind of recognition before Hollywood recognizes it, but they don't want their own Dirty laundry exposed. S Ken: I'm hoping I'm hoping that's ever since like the past ten years where a lot of these documentaries come out, a lot of these kind of insiders have gotten in trouble. Hopefully this at least for future generations or people that's already in the industry, like hopefully it gives them kind of courage to kind of break out of this kind of really toxic culture that's in Lisa: Yes and no. unfortunately, th a lot of people are still empowered. There are a lot of Harvey Weinsteins that are still there, Ken: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lisa: but they they are very judicious with who they throw under the bus because they're like, okay, if we throw one person on the bus, then it's like a decoy. you focus on this and you don't have to see what I did. Like the with P. Diddy thing, P. Diddy's not the only one. He's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: not the only predator. There's so many of them in the music industry and they're like, we could just throw this asshole under the bus. You know what? We could do that and wash our hands of it and Ken: But but here's the thing. You think about even like thirty, forty years ago, this was like a non-factor. There will be no allegations at all. It'll get swept under the rug. It's not like that Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: anymore. I think the allegations, I think back then, people were just like, man, this is just like a blip. This person's trying to get money. I don't think people have that kind of viewpoint anymore, right? I think people Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: are now just like waiting, who's the next one? When's the next thing gonna drop? And people aren't surprised anymore. There there's definitely a change in public perception. And public perception could get someone in power out of power based on that public perception. Lisa: Yeah. What's it called? A pu a public. Ken: And again, we talk about the thing that's like, yeah, what what when it's good, you don't get in trouble. When everything's going fine, it it you don't get in trouble for doing all the bad things. Lisa: Mm. Ken: Once the wheels fall off, it's one thing after another. It's like it's like a snowball effect, right? You get once someone accuses you of something and then you screw up something and you screw up you piss off another person that's influential. Exactly. It's it's a dog eat dog kind of industry. You piss off one person, someone's gonna try to like bury you. I think a lot of that that P. Diddy thing was who was trying to bury him? 50 Cent. 50 Cent was trying to bury him. He was waiting. He's been waiting for years. Lisa: Yeah. I know, I saw that documentary. but yeah dunno. Ken: The thing about these people, and they kind of showed the P. Diddy as kind of like this narcissist and kind of like this jackass of industry. the problem with that is a lot of people are scared of you, but it takes a couple people that have the power to find their opening. And people always are looking for that opening. If you're a terrible person, there's another terrible person that's trying to take you out. Lisa: Mm, mm-hmm. Ken: So just don't think that if you're a narcissist that there aren't other people that try to like get you. And that's why the I think some narcissists have such paranoia. Lisa: you know what? You're so right. And so there was this interview I was listening to with Mark Vicente. I don't remember w I'm trying to remember which interview I was listening to, but he said that he had a film screening and there was an Ailis actress who saw it. And he wouldn't name her, you know. I I get Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: that. Mark said that she told him that she liked it, but that she didn't like the part where their narcissists expose their tactics. And yeah Ken: I wonder why. Lisa: Yeah, I he obviously like hinted that she did not want her own like MO exposed and It made me think of all the times like I wondered how all the narcissists in my life would feel about like the fact that there's so much info about narcissism right now. I I know for a fact that they would be not happy about that. And i there's a one person I had in mind, this ex narcissistic friend, not Gyna. But so like if she were to watch this documentary, I feel like her eyes would be so big to to the point where it's like, I am being exposed, you know? like Clockwork orange style of like eyes, like that big. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: You know, th they do not want to get exposed. And it's funny because that one narc friend I I I'm thinking about someone Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: actually exposed her. There was s somebody she'd screwed over and they wrote a blog about her about how like I was giving her money because she had like a bunch of kids with different baby daddies and she needed help and and I didn't realize she was using that money to get drugs and get tattoos and go to Universal Studios and do she would do drugs in front of her kids. Like I like, What the fuck? Like somebody wrote a blog about that, like on Blog Spot. And it was like, what? And I was sending it to people who like mutual people we knew. And I was like, Well, look at this bitch. That also reminds me. thing I noticed about, you know, like women who've like this is a completely anecdotal. They've had kids with different baby daddies. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: They've all been sociopaths. All of them. Like they've had their kids taken away at some point, they did drugs in front of them. it just there there's a thing about that. Like that it's so anecdotal, there's no study. I w I wish there was. I mean, if there could be a study about that, that would be really cool. But just like yeah, I d I I don't know if you've had that experience as well. But just Ken: You mean that ki that kind of patterned behavior of just kind of was it serial kind of relationships and I in that term I I need to ask, is like i is the person trying to find support for their kid or they're just serial like getting baby daddies and stuff like that and Lisa: Yeah. But yeah, yeah. But anyway, we're going off topic. Ken: Yeah, it's interesting you brought up that Clockwork Orange thing because Evan Rachel Wood talks about that cult programming, right? She kind of had she's she claimed that Marilyn Manson was showing her very graphic material and she was just watching it. And this kind of thing is common in, you know, kind of like brainwashing. It's a brainwashing technique. And we do see it in the movie Clockwork Orange. It's so it's very interesting that you brought up that movie. So it's like Lisa: huh. Ken: it's kind of like it is a brainwashing cult technique to try to get people to indoctrinate it into something. she brings it up and she has a moment where she's saying that she's she's a smart person, but she still fell for it. And I think a lot of it was she knows that it's like She was young and she was intelligent, but that has nothing to do with it. The smartest of people could fall for, like a narcissist, right? It has nothing to do with it. Lisa: No. so there's this I read this book about this one author and it was her memoir and she grew up in the children of God cult. She basically said that just because you're quote unquote book smart, it doesn't Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: exempt you from falling into cults. Like even the branch dividians, they had a Harvard educated lawyer, there was an engineer who lived in LA. I mean, so people who are like quote unquote educated, they fell for it, right? So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it there's still that longing of wanting to be part of a group. And one thing Ken: Yes. Lisa: that really you know what's really interesting that she said she said after you leave a cult, it takes years to deprogram. And when she said how many years, I was like, wow. Ken, do you wanna give a guess of how long it takes to deprogram from a cold? Ken: I don't remember that part. It was I'm thinking ten, ten years. I'm gonna say ten years. Ooh I just know that ten years is a long time because it's Lisa: Yes ten, exactly, you got it. It's a la Ken: ooh, it's it's yeah, that it's it it's hard, right? we could incorporate that to just how our, society is right now. We have a lot of people talk about a certain group of people That were influenced into a political movement and now a small portion of them or a vocal portion of them is trying to be get the to get deprogram right. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And they're getting input from people that have left like cults or left the Mormon church. And it and they tell it's it's tough. It's tough to do it's tough to do that because especially in the Mormon church, that there's a lot of influencers now that have left the Mormon church. And actually telling people how the Mormon Church works. So it at least gives people like a it it's guess I guess this is like the Mormon leaving the Mormon Church playbook. so a lot of it is you're not only just deprogramming, let's say your whole family or friends and family are in that kind of cult. What happens to you when you detach from that? you lose all of that. You'll just have a group of people that keep constantly calling you and you know, you know, say things like, I want to save your soul. I don't want to go to hell. It's things like that. So and the thing is, you're excommunicated if you do something like that. And that has a lot to do with cult deprogramming too, especially if you are not the only one in the cult. It's your whole family and your whole neighborhood. So I can just see Lisa: Yeah, it's Ken: how difficult that is. It's just it it it it takes a lot of courage to have that. So Lisa: Yeah. Ken: anybody that wants to like leave a cult, it's definitely s you have to get help. but recognizing that you are in a cult and or you're in some sort of situation where you're being programmed to think a certain way. once you realize Lisa: Mm yeah. Ken: that it's empowering, but it's it that's that's only like step one. Lisa: Yeah, that's the thing about Mark Vicente, 'cause he left the next same cult like what? Bef right before COVID. And it hasn't been ten years since he's left. But he's dealt with a lot of therapists and stuff since he's left and it's he's able to realize, shit, that's what it was. And again, you know, all narcissistic leaders are cults. And, you know, if you come from a narcissistic family, it's a single family cult, as they call it. If you have an abusive partner, it's a one-on-one cult, or I've heard a cult of one, whatever. So That's why it's very important to study narcissism and Ken: okay. I was just bringing up something else. It was like something interesting in the documentary that when he was Sam was talking about the playbook. He was talking about how he has you know romantic or sexual relationships with these people. I think most of them were like patients he was treating. And it really interesting that he says like he would try to, you know, engage with the person, reach out, connect with the person. And then once that happens, he turns the playbook around. He starts chastising her. He starts trying to cut her off. And eventually he discards her and see how she like copes with it. And you look at that, I'm like, what does that remind us of that we to recently talked about? This is pretty much what people with the Manosphere is touting, by the way. What Sam is saying Lisa: Yes. Ken: about relationships with these women, or just relationships with people in general, like friendships and romantic relationships. Once you get it, play hard to get, cut them off, and then discard them. And this Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: is a l this is like the playbook for people in the Manosphere in the past couple years. So this is this is absolutely frightening. So you're a lot of the tactics that the Manosphere talks about in terms of getting women and stuff like that, it's right there. Sam actually just gave it to you. It's pretty horrifying because if you look at how People analyze just how people in the man's sphere, people that are red pilled, and these these men that are talking to these women, and these women are giving him like kind of like candid, like talks about it. Do you know what this guy said to me? When you know what this guy was trying to do on our date? Like we c it got to a certain point where he was charismatic, and then it just it just flipped the switch. And he just started criticizing me, telling me this, that, and that. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Sam repeated that. Almost word for word. So it's like, okay, I think I know where the Manosphere creators got it from. Not exactly Lisa: Yeah Ken: from him, but that this is the playbook. This is brilliant. This is the playbook. People have to watch this movie and just look at it as like, I see that. I see this right here. It's so it's so apparent now. it's once you watch it, it's now you're gonna look at things as like, I get it now. I this is where it came from. And then you can't unsee Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it. I think there was I for I was reading a article on a quick kind review on the documentary. The interesting part was the writer was saying that the documentary had a little bit of I'm not sure if you wa ever watched the movie John Carpenter, They Live. It's a movie with Rowdy Roddy Piper. And pretty much the the idea of the movie is that he's a vagrant, right? And then he discovers these glasses that once he puts them on, he noticed that there's aliens running all these things. Like the news, the media, all these kind of like wealthy people are all aliens. And they're all being kind of like held l as cattle and brainwashed. And he's kind of putting it in this thing where it's like, yeah, once you put the glasses on, you see all the narcissists around, and this is what the documentary is trying to show you. And I thought that was a good Good kind of like correlation they had in there. because once you see how narcissists operate, or you dealt with narcissists like me and Lisa, we've grown up with them, you can't unsee it once you know it. It's like it's like those glasses. So once you put it on, you're gonna be like, that person is if not a narcissist, you've very guarded against people that have personalities that are similar to that. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Or yeah, Lisa Watch They Live. I love it. it's kind of like a B movie, but it's John Carpenter. So, you know, John Carpenter is very famous. I love pro wrestling, so I saw Rowdy Roddy Piper. and it has Keith David in there. Great movie. If you you want to watch a nice movie, watch that movie. Recommend it. Lisa: Okay. I'll look at yeah, I'll look into that. Ken: man, I lo I love that movie. It it's cheesy in a way where it's like, this is social commentary too. And there's like good bit of action. I'm not sure if you ever heard that term. I was like, was what does Roddy Piper say? He's like, I I love chewing bubblegum and kicking ass, and I'm all out of bubblegum. I'm not sure if you ever heard that, but I like, okay. Okay, that that Lisa: yes, I have. I have, yeah. Ken: came from that movie. Because it's it's like it's such a line where it's like, man, this is like a This is such a eighties kind of action movie kind of line. But I love that movie. And I guess that leads into a palette cleanser, right, Lisa? Lisa: Yeah, so over the weekend they had the online launch. So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: like I had access to it because I was an early donor. for like Saturday and Sunday, they had all these different things with the the interview with Dr. Romney and interview with all these different mental health professionals and talking about the film and and people were able to interact. It was really cool. And at the end in one of the launches, the filmmakers partner, Scott Altomar, I'm I'm sure I'm butchering his last name, but Scott said that they are currently partnering with college campuses and they plan on showing this documentary in high schools. So I was like, yes, this is exactly what we need. This is like a first step. imagine if I had I can't even imagine if I had had access to this film in high school. you know, the ex-friend that I was telling you about, the I wouldn't I would have totally my I would have made so many different choices. to show this in high schools It will stop people from getting into these toxic relationships. They will see these patterns. This is something completely needed. And the fact that they're d currently doing this, I'm wondering though, they interview one college professor, he's also a psychologist, he works for the psychology department in I think it's the University of Georgia. the fact that they have that in with him. And they can go to other campuses and show it. This is amazing. This is just a start. This is the beginning of a fucking movement and I am so here for it. I'm ready. It made me so excited. And I was like, yes, yes, finally. the narcissists are not gonna like it. Ken: Hey, how d I so are we part of this movement too? So it's like we're trying to reach out, so you know Grab us. Lisa: yeah, I would love to be part of this movement as well. I maybe we could have our own documentary, make our own about narcissistic parents, you know, th but it that's more niche, more specific, like just like our podcast. Whereas the playbook was very it was a like you said, it was an overview. Ken: Well, if you think about it, it's like a I think you mentioned it in the last episode. A lot of our issues with our parents is because they have narcissistic tendency or just like narcissistic personality disorder. And that's really that affected our upbringing and our relationships with our parents into adulthood. So it's really it's not the complete basis of of how we were raised, but it's a huge portion of it. we didn't for some reason we didn't call it the nast narcissistic like parent podcast. Even though I tagline some sometimes on it on YouTube. You probably yeah, if you see the small text, I do put put that on there, but it's like that's not the only thing it's about. But that's a big part of it. That's why this I think this documentary is so important to me and Lisa. And even if you don't have like a narcissistic person that you're dealing with right now, it's great to know how to spot one. And this is kind of teaching you how to spot one. It's a very basic kind of overview of it. Almost overly basic on the most part, but I think a lot of the documentary's main point was to tell this very interesting story, this investigative journalism that was going on. That was the overarching theme of the movie. Lisa: Yes, yes. I I totally agree. And I think that concludes our episode. Ken: Palette cleanser? Lisa: Yeah, the well the pellet cleanser was I did the when I said about the online launch, partner with college Ken: That's not very cl that's not very funny. That's very serious. Lisa: I don't think it's serious. I think it's more like motivational. But you want a palette Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: cleanser to be ha funny? Is that what? Ken: Well, sometimes it's like a pallet cleanser could be you know, just winding down. Lisa: Okay, you want to wind down from okay. Ken: Well, you know, like we don't we don't have like another like just like sub episode where we just talk like all ro nonsense. Lisa: I think we've had enough. I think we're good. Ken: I think we think we had it off. Lisa: I think we're good to go. I think we I think we might do a bonus episode of this one because of the stuff that came out today with Sam. Ken: wow, it's it's do you wanna Lisa: Yeah. Ken: do you even wanna tease what we got today? Lisa: You know what? Yeah, you know what? There'll be a teaser for the next one. so interestingly enough, we got a direct message from Sam Veknan. He randomly you know, in our Instagram, Nurture Disasters, he sent us a random DM and it was long too. Talking about how they defamed him and blah blah blah, making himself out to be the victim. I think in the the next episode, I will actually read it. I think it's too early to talk about it because I think there's more to it. There's gonna be a lot more to it. he's been actually messaging other people as well. It wasn't just me, because I I'm like, Izzy has to be sending Ken: Well that well then we could actually touch upon this on the next episode, because we do we do there is a portion of the movie where it talks about, you know, narcissists being pushed to the brink and their gambit is to use their smear campaign, which Sam is using to like it even documents what he did for afterwards, right? Once he gets cornered and revealed for what he is. Woo So Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Let's not let's not give away too much. Let's just say yeah, I in the next episode we will read what he actually sent us. So stay tuned for that. So I'm gonna leave that. Ken: Mm-hmm. And if and we can somehow get Mark Vicente to, you know, do like a clip on the show, that would great. I'm trying to but I'm trying to I'm Lisa: Yeah, Mark, if you're listening if you're listening. Ken: trying to really reach out. It's really tough. I think they're because they're so busy, they're probably getting bombarded with other stuff too. But Lisa: yes. for sure. I could see that. Ken: Hey anybody want to come on here and give us like a little tidbit or soundbite or, you know, do an interview with us. Even Evan Rachel Wood. I'll reach out what? I'd I'd have to find her publicist, I don't know. She is a act Lisa: Yeah, yeah, reach out to her. I'm sure she'll be like, fuck ya Ken: she is a longtime actress, so Lisa: Yeah. Ken: and I think what was it I I I didn't even realize it. Yeah, she was in Westworld. And it it brought that up in the documentary that she was in Westworld. And I remember watching the original Westworld growing up as a kid. Like, you know, it's pretty much about like an amusement park that these animatronic things come to life. And she plays like a character that You know, she plays with like someone in the old West and some people have various relationships with her. some very friendly, some very abusive. And it shows that in the documentary as well, like little snippets of it, the show she's in. Lisa: Mm-hmm. All right. Well guys, stay tuned for the next episode. I'll be reading the interesting DM that Sam Veknan sent us. Ken: man, we got we should do that soon because it's like we should keep it fresh, right? Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, thank you guys for so much for listening. Again, all these spoilers. Hopefully you've seen the movie and enjoyed it as much as we did. And see you next time. Ken: Okay. Bye Lisa. Lisa: Bye Ken. Bye guys. Ken: Bye. Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey, Ken. We need to put a disclaimer. Yes. Sorry, this is a total spoiler. just like the last episode. We'll put a disclaimer in the title, when we publish this episode. So it this is funny. we both have in front of us Professor Sam Veknin DM to us. we teased last time at the end of the last episode that Professor Sam had actually sent us a DM randomly, and we're like, What? And it was long too. I sent it to I'm like, Ken, look, look, look. And he goes, it's very copy paste. Ken: It's copy paste. Like he's he's Lisa: very Ken: been sending that to the same message to everybody that's probably I'm assuming commenting on the Instagram. Lisa: Yeah, anybody and every everybody because I left a comment on the Narcissist Playbook their their profile and I said, is anybody else getting these DMs from him? And I got boom boom boom boom boom right after. Like I did, I did, like, shit, I deleted it. But then Vicente Mark, he wrote back Check your DMs. and eventually he addressed it like a few days later. He said, Send it to our legal team, legal at da-da-da-da-da. And I sent them screenshots of it because I thought it was weird. Like other I w we saved it. I actually took I don't know. Maybe I I'm just so paranoid because I've been burned by so many narcissists in my life that I have to like document the shit out of it. That's the first thing they tell you. If you're dealing with a narcissist, document them. I mean that's the Ken: It's crazy because it's like it's not even like you have to take like a mental note like you usually do. he literally sent us like a like a hard copy. So like the so the so yeah, the text is right there. If anytime you wanna start reading the text that he sent us Lisa: Okay. So first of all, okay, I wanna say when we got this DM, it didn't come we were not friends. We're not mutual friends on Instagram, so it goes into like a spam kind of message folder thing. So and it said proof Sam Venkin, but Veknan, sorry, I keep fucking up his name. But the thing is, he doesn't have a blue check mark. He's not verified or whatever. So I thought, is what? So I looked and I was like, is it like a spoof profile? Because you see that all the time on Instagram. People like to just spoof other people. But he had like 65,000 plus followers. So I Googled him and I guess that is his real Instagram profile, even though it's not verified. And I was like, okay. That's when I was like, This is weird. So it starts out like this. The Narcissist Playbook, and this is documentaries and quotes, and the companion podcast series contain defamatory hit pieces against me. The clips in the film are from a public role-playing event. My clients are present in the audience. The film and podcast were instigated by my former business partner, Parentheses, with whom I have had An acrimonious fallout in twenty twenty two end of parentheses Richard Granin and his current business partner, Mark Vicente. They lie shamelessly throughout the film. Granin produced another documentary hit piece against me in two thousand seven. Two thousand seventeen, sorry. I'm taking multiple kinds of legal steps against all of them. PS and then has twenty-eight and it's in in parentheses it has exclamation, exclamation, exclamation. Twenty-eight film festivals and all streaming platforms, and their legal departments have rejected the film. Tells you everything you need to know. The quote unquote victim in the film is an egregious liar. She's a collaborative Richard Granin and was his coaching client. Parentheses, I introduced her to him. She too used to be my business partner in Russia. And then he does the very boomer thing at the end. He signs his name. Cause like I Ken: Have to, have to. how will we know that it's not it's from him if he didn't sign his name in the message? Lisa: Yeah, how else would we know yeah it would yeah, it would just Yeah. So Ken: Lots lots of issues with that message. Lots of issues. Just Lisa: The math is it not math. Okay, he says i okay, Richard Granin produced another documentary hit piece against me in two thousand seventeen. Okay, this was shot within the last five years. So Ken: Yes, so was he already thinking preemptively that his cohort was already building a case against him? Because that's like that's the thing about like people that are chronically liars. Sometimes they get the cr timelapse wrong. Even if you're a good liar, you sometimes just get things wrong. You just do. And it's just just a case of him getting it wrong, because it's not true. Lisa: Two thousand seventeen. It that doesn't make sense. So you knew someone was your enemy until twenty seventeen, but you still decided to do another documentary with him. What? Ken: Well well here's the thing, Lisa. It's like he i in Sam's mind, he's already he's already a narcissist, so he was ready probably didn't like Richard the way it was. So he's probably thinking that it's like, yeah, this guy, this guy was probably building a case against me. 'Cause he's probably paranoid about that too. But the I I think it's it I think it just it doesn't yeah, the math didn't math. So and the calendars are all wrong, like dating's all wrong. So Lisa: It it makes no fucking sense. Like he no. Ken: It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't. It doesn't. But Lisa: I Okay. And another thing. So i a public role-playing event. Okay, maybe that could be true. You know, that's the thing about lies. It's like you sprinkle enough truth in there so it looks like the truth. But it and okay, we talked about this, Ken. He acts like this was specifically targeted to him. It was a hit piece against him because they interviewed four different narcissists. He was just one of And it's like, they had it out for me. And like, if they did, then why didn't they go after the other three narcissists who were in the film? Like it doesn't make sense. They completely focused on him. I so weird. And and also wanna just Ken: Well well he's he's he's only one of the narcissists in the film, but he's the head narcissist, right? Even their even s even kinda claiming that it's a hit piece against him. That's some narcissism Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: right there, right? Lisa: It's all about him, but like the other narcissists were just I mean, they got they got barely any time. You know, we talked about Ken: Yeah, they barely got any time. I I really think that they barely got any time because this became such an intriguing narrative to the to the documentary that one of the narcissists is actually someone that's very dangerous. And I think they came to a point where it's like, hey, that's a good plot piece for this for this documentary. This overarching theme is is it's wonderful. It ties everything together. But to to have the kind of like you know. Y think of yourself so highly that they do a hit piece solely on you and they planned it in advance, like how many years in advance? Like your your partner was apparently doing a hit piece about you five years before the fact. Right. Right. Lisa: Yeah. Right. Ken: It's a delusions of grandeur. It's like Lisa: Totally delusional. Ken: It and it's just is it just me is like boomer narcissists or like let's say he's not boomer, maybe like a little bit younger, but like people that are like people that have not spent their like entire youth on the internet, like people that have just like taken like G Gen X like boomers, do th why do they all like all these narcissists of this age write the same way? It's weird, right? It's like it's like parentheses, exclamation points, Like caps locks when there's no need to be like caps locked for anything. and and these like quotations like as a person like I love doing the quote works just just in person but when you're doing it like in in actual like text it does it doesn't work it doesn't land the same like when I do like the quote unquote thing when I do the fingers like I feel like that's that's funny when I do it in person but it's like when you do that like actually like it doesn't add anything to it. Quote unquote Exclamation Lisa: I okay. Ken: part twenty eight. Lisa: Y I mean, okay, I just looked up his his age. He's sixty five. Yeah. Ken: Is what is it was I get confused about the numbers. Is that like is that on the cusp? Lisa: No, that's boomer. Ken: That's a boomer, really? Lisa: yeah. Boomer is like Ken: What's a cutoff for Gen X? Lisa: Gen X is late fifties, I think. Ken: Hmm, so it's like, hmm goodness, man, goodness. So as soon as we saw it, it doesn't compute in our head, like it's like okay. Of course he wants to do damage control, right? But that this does this actually work to message a bunch of people that are interested in the documentary? That's why we're commenting on it. Is it really gonna skew like our perception of him and the documentary? Lisa: He's desperate. He's so Ken: It's weird, right? It's weird, right? You don't have to tell just normal users on the internet, right? Instagram users that are like interested in documentary. Lisa: But okay, so at the end, you know where he he talks about like the twenty-eight film festivals and all streaming platforms, the legal departments reducing the film, tells you everything you need to know. Okay, for that part, I'm not too worried about that. Like we talked about this in the last episode. Of course Hollywood's not gonna write this at all. Ken: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough for the you know, because you know, the people that are gonna pick it up are gonna look at it, it's like I don't want this to get out there. It's kinda like that. Lisa: I'm being called out, they're like, fuck, you're calling me out. No, no, no, no, no. We know that I he I maybe he like some people he send it to, they have no idea about the how the industry works. So if you're Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: just like someone who lives in the Midwest and has a normal job, you know, you're just like a nurse or whatever. maybe maybe this'll feel like it'll it'll seem like a valid point. In real life, you go, there's a lot of a lot of sketchiness in the industry, not all of it, but there's a lot of it. And I could see like just because a film festival, rejected the film, it doesn't mean it's a bad film. It just there's the politics behind it that people don't understand. It's a very, very highly, highly, highly political industry. If you're not kissing someone's ass, you're not being invited back into the set next time, you know? Ken: That's why it's it that's that that's why it's always like an interesting story when you see an actor or like a filmmaker or a director, and they've kind of burnt bridges and they it's not necessarily like they're difficult to work with, but they get that they get that label, right? They get they're difficult to Lisa: Yeah. Ken: work with. when you see that that that person's difficult to work with, they get blacklisted and you kinda wonder it's like, what did they do in particular? Did it was it something that they did that was bad or d were they just calling out someone or calling out something that was Just very perverse, right? Lisa: Y that's a great point because that reminds me of Harvey Weinstein. Remember when Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: a lot of actresses were basically blacklisted after they denied these advances? Ken: Well, a lot of it too, like the blacklisting of the actresses, they all said the same thing, right? Like, she's she's she's difficult to work with. He's a very diva. Lisa: Yeah. Right. That and I remember it was the Lord of the Rings movie and Peter Jackson came out after the allegations with against Weinstein and he said, I he was throwing around names like Ashley Judd and such and such and like, no no no, she's she's very difficult to work with. She's it's she's this, she's that, she's that and basically their careers are ruined Ken: that's tough in in Hollywood. If you get like hit with the label like difficult to work with or this person just doesn't play ball, that's pretty much what it is. Lisa: Mm. Ken: This person doesn't let me exploit them. too difficult Lisa: Yeah. Ken: to work with. They don't go with they don't go with what I w want them to do. And I mean, it's tough, right? When you're when you're an actor, if you step on the wrong toes, that could be your career right there. Lisa: Mm. Ken: Some people only get like one really straight shot. That's why I see like actors and actresses you you know what there's there's a point where they they come from it seems like they come out of nowhere, but there's it's it's they come from somewhere. It just takes time for them to get exposure, right? Like you see people like, this person just blew up overnight. It's like, no, no, no, they didn't. They didn't. Lisa: Mm. Ken: It's like it's years of hard work. They were in a bunch of stuff that you didn't watch. So it just seems it has that it has that scope of, yeah, this person just came out of nowhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that that's totally fine. And then you see them everywhere. like, yeah. What's Glenn Powell, you kinda see him everywhere. and you know, as co-star in one of the movies, Sidney Sweeney, you see them everywhere. And the thing is, you kinda understands like you get what as actor in Hollywood, you kinda wanna get while the getting's good, right? So you wanna do as much as you can. Who knows when this is gonna end, So you try to just say yes to everything to get yourself out there. And and hopefully you get good PR. But like a lot of people, they only have like a couple years. And that's really what the shelf life of a lot of these actors are, if you think about it. Because we always think it's like, this person was really big. How come they haven't been in a movie lately? And then you look at their their IMDB, it's like they have. It's just they don't get pushed to the front anymore, right? Lisa: Hm. You know, it that's an interesting getting pushed 'cause out of Mariah Carey's memoir, The The Meaning of Mariah, and she talks about how like There's w there's a whole chapter actually dedicated to J Lo she just calls her the entertainer. Basically, she was propped up by Tommy Matola, the head of Sony, to basically sabotage Mariah. It's really interesting. And it's someone like J-Lo who she can barely sing. She's not I mean, as an actress I think she's very decent. she did a great job in Selena, but I don't I As a singer, she's off key. Like I've heard her being off key. She's so for them to push her as much as they did because she was the anointed one, despite not having the vocal talent. Yes, she's very beautiful and she's a good dancer, but to prop her up the way that they did, like they call there's a whole thing I don't know if you've seen on YouTube where it's like the industry plant. Where it's like they were propped up by the industry for whatever reason, it's it's very conspiratorial minded, like the Illuminati or whatever. But like she's the industry plant and and they literally I mean, if you think about it, like someone with who doesn't write her own music, barely sings her own songs, because we found now we know that she like her background singers, they're the ones who They put their vocals all the way up during the the the chorus, because she can't sing that high. So it's like Ashanti is actually literally singing, or someone else, you know, like the ghost singers or background singers. And you're like, why did they prop her up? And it was it's a deliberate thing. And I'm wondering, how many J-Lo's are there? You know, in not just in music, but like actors, th I have theories about JLo. I won't say them here because they're I have no evidence, but I do have theories about her. she always, always, always gave me ruthless vibes from the beginning. You know, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I loved her and Selena, but like her demeanor and you know, if you're ever in the service industry, you hear murmurs of like who's a nice person, who's really rude to servers, who's r rude to like the valet guy, the i she Let's just say how do I say it? She was not good. She was not nice. Ken: Well a lot of I think that's it w people in the service industry or people that have worked under her have never said anything good about her. That must yeah. So there are people Lisa: No. No. no. like I sh I heard that she got a driver fired because he asked her how dare he ask her where she was going. Ken: Well, we talked about like, yeah, you don't want to be labeled as difficult to work with, but that's from the studios. I think from fans, and perception throughout the industry is that she is very difficult to work with and she's a bitch. Might as well just put Lisa: Yeah. Ken: it out there, I like, she's a bitch. Lisa: yeah, the the we talked about the taco flavored kisses. That's basically how she is in real life. That's that's her. Ken: Mm-hmm. I'm I'm sure of it. And and the thing is, it's you talked about Mariah and Mariah's he she also doesn't have a good rep reputation, so it's Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: it's like a bad person talking shit about a bad person, right? But Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: what but one of them usurped her as you know, like the the industry standard, I guess. And even so, like I watch her stuff as like I don't get the allure. I really don't. Great dancer. Huh? Lisa: For J Low? J Lo? Ken: For JLo, yeah. Mariah Mariah is like the voice alone is like it gets you it gets you into the stadium. J Lo doesn't have that. Lisa: Yeah. And she writes her own music. Yeah. But J Lo doesn't write her own music though. So Ken: W which is which which is totally fine, like 'cause when you're a pop musician, like it doesn't really matter if you write your own music. If you write your own music, great. But you s you're a lot of it's like there that's why that's why like you have people that are songwriters, right? There's a lot of people that are s that have made careers out of being songwriters. So it's not necessarily a it I don't think it's a knock on someone that doesn't write their own music, especially if they're a pop musician. It's it's it's fair. It's fair. Lisa: That's fair. That's fair. You get really good vocals, but maybe you're not the best songwriter. Which Ken: Yeah, it's a and and the reason hey, I'm I'm saying this because like there's there's there's a requirement for people that could do songwriting. Like if you if you think about it, like people like Kesha, they kind of got their start being a songwriter. And then Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: a lot of it's like, Well, you you know, have you have you watched K pop Demon Hunters yet? Well th well well you you know about it, right? Yeah, it's really fun. Lisa: No. Should I? Should I? No, I I don't know. Ken: It's really fun, but it's like it's like the main singer of you know, like the the main singer that provides the vocals for the songs. Like she's a she started off as like a K pop like trainee and she didn't make it. So she she pivoted to being a songwriter, and that's how she got and this is kind of like her first big break. Being in her thirties, like she was only a songwriter for the longest time. She was writing songs for like other K-pop artists. So that's how she made a living. And this is she finally got her shot. And you kind of think about it, it's like, yeah, there's people that have w written songs their entire lives and they get that one shot. So it's it's always a few good stories. But th I mean, there's nothing wrong with someone that just sings songs that other people write. That's totally fine. Like not n it's like not every director writes their own stuff, like write their own screenplay, right? That's why they're screenplay Lisa: Right. Ken: writers. There's other people, there's source material. So I don't think it's like a bad thing. That doesn't necessarily if they could sing and or if they could just provide like entertainment, like they're a good dancer or something like that. They're not totally horrible. I think that's totally fine. But it's interesting that you know, J Lo got that from Mariah Carey, 'cause they're both cut from the same cloth, I feel like. Just one's a really good singer and one's a really good dancer. Lisa: Mm. Ken: So together they make Beyonce. Lisa: Okay, all right. Ken: Yeah, you put you put you s you squish them together like like like Play Doh and then you create the perfect singer and it's Beyonce, isn't it? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I mean Beyonce's not she's cutthroat too, so I don't but I don't think to the degree that she's hadn't well, D.Va's gonna be D.Va, but I d some I don't know, man. We don't ch we could talk like all day about this stuff. It's like okay. Mm-hmm. Lisa: I know, we're getting off topic because the whole point was like just because you you know, you got rejected from all these film festivals, it means it's a bad film. No. Ken: Doesn't mean a thing. Doesn't doesn't mean it's a bad film. Doesn't mean it's a hit piece. Sometimes hit pieces get picked up. So there's like movies that obviously are kind of a little like biased towards something and they still get picked up. So that's not indicator of that at all. Lisa: Mm no. Ken: we already have preconceived notions about this guy, Sam. We already got preconceived notions about the documentary. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: So I'm not sure what he's trying to do here. I really Lisa: he Ken: don't. It's to get your story out there, I guess. But you see that a lot. People that say outlandish things like I'm gonna get my lawyer, right? A lot of the times when people say that, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna force litigation or like I'm gonna find a lawyer and sue you. A lot of times Lisa: Gonna sue you. I'm gonna sue you. Ken: even if they follow through, like they're full of shit. Lisa: that's another thing. I mean, okay, let's say he threatens to sue them. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: that shit comes out, you know, in the discovery process all of this. Ken: Yeah, that's that's that's the most major thing, right? About being yeah, you're interested in law. It's like, yeah, if you make a claim that someone is defaming you or something like that Lisa: Mm-hmm. Slander, whatever. Ken: Yeah. Yeah, this is discovery phase. It's it's everything's supposed to come out. Lisa: all the skeletons in the closet. W I mean, and someone someone like Sam, I can see him having more skeletons in his closet than a cemetery, you know? So Ken: Who knows, Lisa: yeah, if if he wants to sue, I don't think that's beneficial to him. He doesn't I don't think people realize people they just the narcissists are like they're on a w fucking war path anyone who's ever crossed the narcissist, they will come after you like try to go back and destroy you. They're vindictive as fuck. So someone like Sam, I can see him. And I don't know if you've heard Mark Vicente. He was saying on Instagram, like the online stuff was being sabotaged. And I wonder if he was basically tacitly saying, This is Sam. He's just basically trying to sabotage us. Ken: what way? Kinda just like messaging people and, you know, try to reach Lisa: Well well he Ken: out to Lisa: No no no no no no no no. Like they were supposed to release the film like a mont at least a few weeks ago before to the early donors like me. they extended it and they're like, we're being attacked virtually and I don't know Sam was doing some stuff behind the scenes and I have a feeling it was Sam just doing anything and everything it can to sabotage the film. But and it's out there now, so sorry Sam. Ken: Well, I'm I'm assuming it was he call of calling in like favors and, you know, what bot farms, other stuff? I don't know. I'm not sure what's the extent of that Lisa: But probably dark web. I mean, you're in IT, so you know, but you know there's a a lot of dark web stuff that people can do to sabotage someone else. Ken: Well too websites and stuff like that and you know, who knows what what the extent of was. But here's the thing, if you if you want to sue someone for like defaming you or something like that. Yeah, all that stuff you have to prove that it actually caused damages and that act that allegation is false. Lisa: Well, damages, I think he's probably lost a lot of clients. I know he does have clients 'cause people do follow him because they want that insight. Ken: And also, yeah, and also is he really a doctor? Lisa: He doesn't have a degree in psychology from what I hear. It was like a is his PhD is from something else. Like unrelated to psychology. Ken: So he is a doctor of something else. Lisa: I'm a doctor, like cool, can you save my life? No, but I can you know. What he I mean actually Zim Vaknin right, they talked about that. his credentials. He doesn't have they talked about he has a PhD in philosophy slash physics from a the non traditional accredited Pacific Western University. So it's like a you know those diploma mills? Ken: Yeah, a non accredited is very problematic. Lisa: He has no formal accredited degree or license in clinical psychology, though he serves as a professor of psychology. okay. Sure. Ken: Well and all and also in other countries they have different standards of who could be but professor. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Like in in America, like you you minimum has to have like a like a bachelor's degree. Lisa: Yeah. When I when Ken: So Lisa: I went to state school y a lot of my professors they just had only masters, but a lot of them were great. They were very knowledgeable. It doesn't mean that Ken: Yeah. Yeah, so it's very different. I guess you could be like a you could be a lecturer with certain credentials, but every country is kinda different. Lisa: Did he lose clients? Probably. Does he have the credentials? No. But okay, I wanna be fair. And just because you don't have the credentials, it doesn't mean you're not a good therapist. Because he has insight, about narcissism that you don't really get unless you know, he he he gives you It peels behind the curtain, you know? He shows you behind the curtain, like, this is how I think. This is how I feel. This is how r I really, you know, really th feel about you. for a lot of people, it's been very beneficial. And they'll even say in the comments, like, I learned a b I learned a lot from him because I'm like, I thought this person really felt this way about me, but they really were just they thought I was just their puppet, I was their this, and they went through the exact same playbook that he was talking about and To be fair, I'm sure a lot of what he says is very beneficial to people. But it's like every cult leader, right? They have a lot of stuff that's very beneficial at the beginning. And then once you're deep into it, that's when they go, that's when they change. You're like, okay. You want to go back to it? Yeah. Ken: Which is tot Yeah, which is totally fine. But here's the thing. If the allegations against him are true and he did pull this kind of like pretty much crimes against like his patients, I mean what what's left? It's like what the l might be like charging him with crimes, right? That's the only thing Lisa: yeah. Ken: that will prime maybe like stop him? Lisa: But yeah. Who who the fuck knows? Ken: But who knows? But who knows? Who knows? Who knows? spoilers here, but he you do get a part where Richard's driving in his car and this is like post fac, right? the the cat's out of the bag. And you hear someone call him, like a lady's voice, someone's calling him and they're kinda like berating him on behalf of Sam. So he's just having a lot of these people there are like in his pocket, right? And he could throw out there. I think a I think some Lisa: Yeah. I don't know. Ken: of them were probably his patients or, you know, people that have fallen for his trap. And he just kinda like tossing them out there, yeah. Lisa: his names, his names. so he is a like a cult leader kind of a thing. They have their flying monkeys to do all the dirty work for them. Ken: And yeah, remember remember the end of the documentary when, you know, Isla is like cornering him, right? In into Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: this like interview. Who is the lady and the and and the young man that was with him? Cause the lady was like, I want to hear these allegations, right? Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Who is she? Lisa: Fuck I don't remember. Ken: Exactly. They I don't even think they say it, right? Lisa: Mm mm. No. No, I I Ken: It's it's it's not his wife, right? It's like it I don't to my knowledge, I'm not sure if he's married, but Lisa: Let me look him up. I I can't find anything online about his marital status. Mm. Spouse. yes, he does have a spouse. Ken: it seems like his wife does have an Russian accent. Lisa: Yes, that's his wife. Yes, the black hair. big brown eyes. Yeah, that's his okay, that's his wife. Yes. Yeah, okay. We'll cover that up. boy. If that's his wife, fuck. Ken: So is that young Lisa: if Ken: I I think a lot of information about him is very limited. Like Lisa: It just it has this like when you talk about credentials, it's more about you know the books he's published and his it's it's it's work related. What he wants you to see. Ken: Yeah. So it it's what he w what he wants you to know about, right? Lisa: Right. His impressive credentials as far as I wrote this book. Yeah. But yeah, the lady is is Lydia. Probably Lydia. yeah, I do recognize her. I guess that's his wife. Unless she's another narcissist or sociopath. Ken: I think they blur out her face, right? I think sh her face Lisa: I don't know. Ken: was blurred out, so it's like we don't know who it is. You only have the voice. They didn't they didn't doctor the voice, I don't think. Lisa: she has herself as a CEO and founder at Narcissus Publications. my god. Okay. It's crazy. And well, I mean, Sam Wahi wasn't the only narcissist. They also had the Lee guy with his twin. And it I I felt, you know, I meant to bring this up. I should have brought this up in the last time about, you know, Lee being a twin, and his twin is not the narcissist. My mom is a twin. And her twin sister is also a narcissist like her. Ken: So it's like different right there. So it's like okay, so they both turned out the same. Lisa: Yeah, I mean we don't know how both of the twins, Lee and his brother, were treated, to one become and whatnot. We had some assumptions, like, Lee was a golden child. And his brother was probably like maybe the scapegoat, the invisible child, the helper, whatever. I think with my mom and her sister, they both I mean, there were like what? They had twelve other siblings, you know? One of the oldest ones, their job was to take care of the younger ones, very neglected, grew up very poor. my mom would always try to like make me feel guilty. I ever wanted anything, 'cause she'd be like, Well, I didn't have any food to eat when during lunchtime at school, so I had to just suck on my thumb. Or if I was lucky I'd had tortillas and beans, to eat. Ken: well, the question is, is like like your your aunts and uncles are any of them narcissists? Lisa: Interestingly enough, a lot of my aunts are. I'll just say that. Yeah. The uncles not no. if I would this were to say, I would just say maybe the one or two have the traits. but full-blown like NPD. It's the more the female side. And which is interesting because the boys were more doted on. Because i you know, with the whole macho culture, my grandmother she favored the boys. But the women there were just the females their job was to take care of the younger kids. They have to do all of the housework. They are basically treated like slaves. Ken: So I wonder how much of it is your ants in general were just like I guess for lack of a better term, targets and the sum of what they became was due to like child abuse. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: If yeah, if not physically, mentally too. So it's like there there has to be something that creates that narcissist, right? Lisa: Yeah, and I don't I don't think it was just that. I have a feeling it was a lot of essaying too that went on that was intergenerational. Ken: Lord. Lisa: I have my doubts. Well my theories. the way things have turned out. Like I could just be like, yeah, I see it. Ken: Well, certain things are like e well, even this documentary it it tells you what breeds a narcissist. And even Sam tells his life story. And I think that part of it may be genuine. Like that part where he's talking about how he was abused. That might be that Lisa: Yeah. Ken: that part of it is probably true. So Lisa: Yeah, I don't I doubt he was lying. If he did, maybe he embellished, but I'm sure part of it was Ken: Maybe embellish, but that's not somet that's not something that well, I I don't wanna say like he'll seek the gain for that, but that's just that's that's interesting insight that kinda tells you the recipes of making a narcissist as a grown up. Lisa: Mm-hmm. I mean, yeah, 'cause when I talk to one uncle, he'll even say, like, you know, my grandfather he worked long hours, came home, and if you know, with the twelve kids acting up, he would just get like an electrical wire and just like beat them. So Ken: I think it's very interesting 'cause my I I know my my father's family, like it it was like my my grandfather was kind of like he doesn't like children. Like he he wasn't totally like just like abusing his children. W I I think a lot of it was just like verbal abuse. he had like eight kids and it's weird because I think like most like I think all my aunts, like they're I don't think they have any kind of like narcissistic traits. They didn't. Lisa: Hmm. Ken: I think my dad might be the only one that has those traits. I have an uncle that probably could be. ever since he got sick, like he's he's a little more introverted now, but he he is like someone that will spout like some mean stuff to other people in the family. And I have an uncle that was he was like the youngest, but he's thought highly of himself, but not to I don't think it's to the level of my dad. Like my dad just Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: he's I think he's he's different. He's different than the other two, so of the of the boys. Lisa: How many siblings did your dad have? Ken: So my dad has I think he has five siblings. I think he actually had seven. I think two passed away in their youth. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: So he actually he has like one of like six kids, but he's supposed to be one of eight kids. He's the oldest son. Mm-hmm. Lisa: He's the oldest. Okay. Cause I I always wonder if birth order has like a some sort of bearing on it, but I don't know. Ken: Does it? Lisa: supposedly I've heard yes and no. It's very conflicting and it's very anecdotal. There's there's no studies. That's the thing. Ken: I don't think I don't think birth order might have anything well, they might have something to with it, but it's not the only contributing factor, I don't think. You can't guess it f but it's just by birth order. It's not that kind of thing. Whereas it's like it's it's likely that you could probably guess it based on how they were treated by their parents. Like if there was Lisa: Yeah. Ken: any kind of abuse, then that's a probably a better indicator than actually birth order. Lisa: I think with the birth order thing is that parents tend to treat their kids based on the birth order. So like the firstborns generally they they put a lot of more responsibility on you, especially if there's younger siblings. It's like, can you help out with your younger siblings? I'm busy right now. Can you give your sibling a bottle? can you change their diabetes? There's a lot of Yes. Ken: Yeah, per the parentification. It's usually it's usually the oldest kid, yeah. Lisa: Right, right, right. So they put a lot of Yes, they parentify you and then, cr that creates problems, you know, especially later on in life. And so I do think birth order it is a contributing factor to some extent. Not a hundred percent, but it does because of the way they treat you differently. Ken: Yeah, but it's it's it's it's not it's not it's not easy to use the birth order as like the I guess the the Lisa: Determining factor. Ken: Yeah, yeah. 'Cause it's it's there's other things that actually have like a bigger influence, such as like how they were treated. if there was SA involved, was there any other kind of abuse involved? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: if the parents was a narcissist themselves. So it's like Lisa: Yeah, I Ken: So what show sh so what should we do about the Sam message? should we message it back? I'm pretty sure it's just like a auto generated message. Who knows? Lisa: Yeah, he probably has one of his it's probably one of his minions running his like social media. Copy Ken: Copy paste, copy paste, copy paste, yeah. Lisa: paste. this person w left a message. Paste. This one paste. You know, it just c Ken: we could we could message her back. Thank you for your input. I will look into it. I don't know. Lisa: I'm too scared to be because this guy, he seems like the type I don't think he's just a narcissist. I think he might actually be like a sociopath or like psychopath. And if you're dealing with that level, you cannot you can't even like remotely deal with them because they will just come after you. Like you're you're either their friend or you're their enemy. There's no real one. Ken: Here's the interesting part, we're not we're not part of his hit list yet because we're not big. We're not the people that made a documentary about him. We're not putting him on blast. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, good we're we're are here we're s are we slandering him right now? Ken: We are not, we are literally following whatever the documentary told us. Lisa: Can you imagine after this he's like, You guys there's a r going after us fuck. Ken: Well we must think highly of ourselves that someone so distinguished as Sam, could go after us, right? Lisa: I mean the Narcissist playbook, that one has like a lot of views. It just it way, way, way more than our like the most popular one with the Michael Jackson episode. Ken: yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. so yeah, if anybody hasn't listened to the first episode, which would be episode twenty, I think it got recommended on YouTube, which for podcasts really boostes up because it's a very long like recording. It's like a fifty minute long thing. It usually is a lot of stuff you watch on YouTube, like how long could it be? But it's like podcasts are I think they're classified differently on YouTube. it's also on YouTube Music. So but I think at the last we saw it was like on the s I think on the second week it it got like up to like 620 listens. So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ken: yeah, so how our metric is from our provider it wasn't just like someone clicked into it and just clicked out of it. so it's it's slightly significant in the way that it's like it's logging like a substantial listen time. So that that's the most we got. So it's it's it's obviously I think there's some algorithm that's pushing it. Lisa: I you know, I've told you this, Ken. I think well, my theory is that people click on it 'cause it just says the narcissist playbook, so they think it's the the movie and the thumbnail has Evan Rachel Wood. So they're like, this is the movie and then they're like, it's just a podcast about the movie Like a review and they go, fuck this Ken: Well no no no one's no no one spent the time to we have open comments and if if you s you're on there, you could leave a comment. No one left a nasty comment or a message. we we did get a good amount of likes for it, so someone listened to it and a good amount of them were like, neat. And subscribe. So we I think we picked up a good thirty or forty subscribers just on that episode. Lisa: Yeah, we're we're up to sixty nine subscribers on YouTube. Ken: I think we lost one. It was seventy. Now it's back to sixty hide. But yeah, Lisa: it is. Ken: yeah. But it's like, yeah, it's it's actually should mention this is actually our six month anniversary. Like we I think we s released a first episode six months ago. Lisa: No! Ken: Mm-hmm. It's been six months. this is officially the twenty second episode, so we actually crossed the threshold of what remember the thing I mentioned where it's like if you cross episode twenty one, we're pretty much the top ten percent of podcasts that are still going because like a lot of them die out really quick. Lisa: Yes. Ken: We have no shame when we keep going. This is episode Lisa: You know, yeah. Ken: twenty two, if people are still listening. Lisa: You know what? You just have to keep going. That's that Ken: And and and honestly, it's only six months and you think you're gonna make it big, you really have delusions of grandeur. Nobody it it's just a thing where people see people that are successful and it's like, they made it immediately. No, no. Takes a lot of work. one thing I wanna bring up since we brought up pop music, look at Chappell Roan overnight sensation. Do you know how long Chappell Roan was doing the little girl with the guitar thing? Just normal girl with the guitar thing with the dress, like like performing before she finally got this big break where she kind of like has like an interesting kind of like niche style. It took her forever. you look at her older stuff as like, wow, it took her a while to find that image and that look that kind of like aura. Because she looked totally different. So it's like a lot of the stuff it's like I I think a lot of people just see something as like, yeah, it's instant success. And that's w what's so dangerous about like influencers. you're just seeing the fruits of the labor, the sum of all the stuff, like instantly. It's like, this must be easy. It's not. It's not easy. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Even look okay, even you look at the actors that are like big now, how how much bullshit did they have to go through in order to even get there, right? well Lisa: I know. How many Harvey Weinsteins did they have to th no, she's fu s fucked up. Ken: Good lord. But but I'm just but well see well, I'll talk about like the Mr. Mr. Weinstein, but you look at we mentioned Glenn Powell from earlier in the episode. Do you know do you remember Glenn Powell, like one of his first roles was he played Longfinger Kid in Spy Kids 3D? If you watch Spy Kids 3D, he's like one of the background kids and all he's credited with is Longfinger Kid. Lisa: How about it? Ken: And then this guy, this guy is like the it guy of Hollywood at the moment. So it it takes a while, right? You know, he's like a top gear maverick, he's in what twisters, and you know, he people see this guy, so man, he's everywhere. I'm sick of him. It was like, let the guy have his moment. It took him a while to get there. So it's it's like a lot of a lot of this overnight success is such a fake thing that they push on people, right? Nothing's easy. I think the only thing you could think of as easy is if you we talk about like Nepo babies. They have it the easiest in the way that if they fail, they still have a nest egg. and plus they have what it they have like a inn, right? They have a connection. So that that's why people were mad at them because it's like, they're taking the easy way. Like I was like, no. in that case, it's it's you still need to be good. If you suck, people will kick you out of industry quick. If you're not good, right? No offense to Paris Hilton. I think did she have a new album come out? I'm not sure. But I remember the first one. That one was like, ooh. I don't know what to say about that. Lisa: No shade to Paris, I whatever. Ken: Well, well, there remember y I think you mentioned s about h her issues too, right? I didn't even know about most of that like the problems that she was having. So Lisa: right, when she got sent to that troubleteen industry camp thing facility. I think Ken: Yeah. Lisa: first it was camps and then there was facility and then I don't know. But yeah, she got it shut down. I saw the other day she posted that she got that is it in Idaho I wanna say? Utah? One of those. They had the that school and they got shut down finally. That was for semen. Ken: So w so when are we gonna see a documentary about this? Lisa: Maybe soon. I don't know. She does Ken: It is. Lisa: everything. She's ver she's a very busy lady. Ken: Which which is fine. Like, I think Lisa: Yeah. Ken: she I mean if she's doing productive things and you know, like she's not she's not out Lisa: Mm-hmm. She really is. Ken: there like doing evil stuff to people is like then then don't do that. but Lisa: Yeah. Ken: if she wants to if she wants to release another album, she wants to do other things like if fashion or you know, just even just be like a heiress and stuff like that and maybe go through with this documentary, there's a lot of things she could do. I don't think she's in a bad place. I think she just grew up, right? Like a that's a lot of people we've We look at like people that are in the the spotlight and we're like, Man, this person's stupid and then you've realize you're like, they're twenty one. Remember how do Lisa, were you stupid at twenty one? Just wondering. 'Cause I was stupid. I'm dumb as hell at twenty. Lisa: Yes and yes and no. Like in a lot of ways I was very mature. Even people were like, you seem so old so much older 'cause I grew up really fast. Really, really fast. I didn't get to have a childhood, so I was already I was always an adult. But in a lot of ways I wasn't because you know my brain wasn't fully formed, that like I acted on ways that were not it w I was just like there was a ways that I was like advanced and other ways that I was like behind. Yeah, it was it was a weird thing. And I see it now, but Ken: Yeah, a lot of it is like emotional maturity. It takes a while for emotional maturity. There's some people that are physically mature that don't get emotionally mature. it's not a given. So it doesn't it just because you're like a 40-year-old or 50-year-old doesn't mean that you're like 40 or 50 year old mentality sometimes. You still think like a kid. And social media probably brings that out of people too. It's like they revert back to like a 20-year-old just talking crap on social media. Lisa: Mm. Ken: But there's a lot of it where it's like, I mean, if you don't get like a nice good like adult influence and to teach you like how to, you know, function, like you kinda just learn it by yourself. So you mature it quickly in the way there's like, okay, I could function by myself. But a lot of the emotional maturity and stuff like that and you know, like regulating your emotions and actually knowing what not to do and things like that in like the public space, it's like it that comes later, I think. you know, the frontal lobe thing, it's like I was just I have coworkers that are like way younger than me, like they're in their twenties. I'm like, dude, as long as you don't do anything illegal, you're stupid until you're twenty five or twenty six. You really are. You're allowed to make mistakes as long as it's not legal. I always stress that. But let's say you wanna, you know, like drink all night and then go to work in the morning. When you're like twenty four or twenty five, it's like, go ahead, do it. You wanna date around? Go ahead, do it. you wanna Do stupid things and say stupid things that hopefully doesn't follow you. But it's like, yeah, you could you could be a kid, right? you're you're afforded that grace during that time. I do I do meet kids that are like in their twenties, like early twenties, like, I think I screwed up everything. It was like, You have time. You have time. I a lot of them always mention to me as like, yeah, I had a I was going out with someone, I thought it was the one. It was like, dude, you're like twenty-two. You'll figure it out. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: The ones I worry about are like I'm 22, I've been married for three years. I was like, crap, I don't think that's gonna last in modern day. It worked for our parents, maybe. And not for your parents, but for my parents have been together for quite a while. But yeah. you should really know yourself and find yourself before you like start dedicating yourself to someone else. That's how troubles start. That's how trouble starts. That's really what it is. Not trying to be too preachy, but you know. Lisa: yeah. Ken: this is part of palate cleanser, right? So yeah. So so we go even Lisa: we're waiting. Ken: further. Sam, don't sue us because we didn't say anything defamatory because this was in the documentary. So disclaimer, we're just following what's in the documentary and what you told us in the documentary. So if the stuff that was mentioned in the documentary was misconstrued, we apologize, but you kinda gave us the playbook. you showed everybody how you operated. So unless you're lying about that, what is it? Lisa: I mean, what's it gonna sue us for? I w w Ken: It's a threat, right? Like people like threatening to sue people. Like, you know, South Park. I'm gonna sue you. It's like that. it's so easy to say that you're gonna sue someone until you give it to your lawyer and it's like, I don't think we could sue him for this. Why not? Well, discovery. All this stuff gonna come out. Like you you know, they're they're when you're getting sued, they're allowed to gather information about you too and anything about it to defend themselves. I don't think people understand that people think they have money, I'm gonna sue someone because they're saying bad things about me. It's like it doesn't work if what they're saying about you is true. If it's true, then yeah, you did you have no grounds at that point. I'm not sure. Has he lost business because of this? Do you think he lost business? Lisa: I wouldn't be surprised if like some of his clients have they dropped him and they realize like, fuck, this guy's way more toxic than I thought. Yeah. But I mean it's a questionnaire tale, right? 'Cause with narcissists, you're not you think you're getting one thing, but behind the scenes, they have this whole agenda Yeah. Yep. Ken: you you always have to be careful 'cause even you s look at that's like look at Richard. Like you're thinking that RC is your business friend, all that stuff. Look what happens when you like accuse him of something. Lisa: Mm. he's not just going after the documentary, he's going after Richard himself. Ken: And apparently apparently he thought that Richard was already doing a hit piece on him five years prior in twenty seventeen. Right. Someone Lisa: That the film me. huh. Right. Ken: got the timeline wrong again. Lisa: huh. my god. Yeah, it's so stupid. Ken: Well Lisa, I knew you were gonna screw me over. So in 1975, I prepared this thing against you. I wasn't born then. I wasn't born then. But I did it from be I did it from beyond. good lord. It's Lisa: Yeah, before we were both born. yeah. Like a whole fifteen years before we were born. Yeah. Uhhuh. Okay. Ken: like really. Well, at least they were born. But it's to say it's really interesting that he said that. It was like, well, in 2017 he was trying to do a documentary against me. It's like, so why in 2022 were you so friendly with him and doing business with him? Lisa: yeah. Ken: Why? Lisa: I could see him going th it was a typo or something. Ken: Yeah, that's t that's totally fine. That's totally fine. I think details, details. you can't get when you're mad about something, you can't write you you're not at the right frame of mind, you get dates wrong. Lisa: Mm. I can and no Ken: Well, but you but y but a lot of it's like when narcissists attack you, it becomes like a ad hominem attack, right? It's n it's not about the credibility of what you said. Yeah, it's it's attacking things that are like had nothing to do with the argument. Lisa: Right. It it's name a bunch of name calling. That's basically it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ken: they only had like twenty eight people decline them. I was like, what's that gotta do with anything? Which means you don't have drawing power. Lisa: yeah. Mm-hmm. Ken: You should tell him that we he doesn't have drawing power, I guess. They look at Sam Vancken and it's like, who's that? They were like, We don't want that guy on there. He's not famous. Get us someone famous. Get us Harvey Weinstein. The people were like, now it's like, get us a narcissist like Harvey Weinstein. at least people knew who the heck Harvey Weinstein, not this you know, guy on YouTube saying that he's a narcissist and getting, fifty thousand followers. That's nothing in compared to like Harvey Weinstein, right? Lisa: Yeah. Ken: 'Cause you could even tear down someone that's like, yeah, you you're self important, right? But narcissists, like, they know. They're very insecure, so Lisa: Yeah, very deep down. They are very, very insecure. to the point where it's really Ugh yeah, whatever. Where we like we talked shit about Sam and you know, our thing is about narcissism and I'm wondering if people go, What does this have to do with toxic parents and stuff? Well, you know, if you come from a toxic Household, you basically came from a cult. And if you are no contact, low contact, or somehow trying to heal yourself, you're basically a a cult survivor. trying to deprogram and and that's basically us. That's why, you for me. When I was learning about cults and stuff, I'm like it resonated, but I didn't realize to the extent. And then when someone said years ago, it's a single family cult. my god, no wonder I I can definitely relate to all this shit. right. They're the exact same tactics. Is it the same playbook, you know? That's why is it narcissist playbook? Either whether you're in a single family cult or an abusive relationship, what's it called? one-on-one cult or cult of one, whatever it's called. That's why for me it was very important to watch this documentary and to talk about it. I think it's very, very, very beneficial. Cause I know for me, man, if I had all this information that there's it's available now. Wow, it would have explained everything. my god. But I don't know. What what do you think, Ken? Ken: Well, yeah, to add to that, it's I think it it explains a lot of how narcissism and just like toxic parenting kind of coincides with each other, right? if you watch a documentary, it's a lot of the people that are that are narcissists, it's from childhood trauma. some of them are from their parents. How they retreated from their parents. what you see in the documentary, it's like this person was a kid of narcissists and he was abused, by like a family, like confidant And he didn't become a narcissist himself, but he p carries that trauma. And then you see it for other things, maybe like for for the lady that was saying that, she's like a narcissist and her mom was very abusive, like mommy dearest and stuff like that. You c you see all those things and like there has to be something that correlates, right? And this is this is what it is. we're just trying to kind of focus that that aspect of toxic parenting that involves narcissism and it really is like a very hazardous thing to having a kid grow up into like a well functioning adult. That's not like, you know, like a sociopath or something like that, or a criminal or something like that, or someone that's gonna perpetuate that violence onto the next generation. it's just it's just something that you have to know. I think it it goes a hand in hand. I think it's a lot of it is our issues for our parents is due to narcissism, from our parents' end. So how could we not platform this documentary and talk about it? it is very important that it it it is something that goes hand in hand. not all bad parents are narcissists and you know stuff like that, the old adage, and what we're talking about is there's a lot of intermingling with this. So it can't be just separated from each other. Right, Lisa? Lisa: Yep. Yep. No, I you're right. And Man, I hope this movie just like blows the fuck up. It tells Hollywood, you know what? You were wrong. There's no audience for this. Every fucking person is watching it. This audience is they're dying for something this important. I I that's what we're hoping. It just gives the middle finger, right? it's like the the back rooms. It's the you know, these tiny independent films that make this huge amount of money, which I'm sure the studio people were like, this is not Fast and Furious 87. This is not, you know, insert, remake, sequel, whatever. I I'm hoping this is it. And You know, with that, I think this is we're pretty good to go. It's the end of the episode. Yeah. What do you think, Ken? Ken: I think it should be the end of episode too. It's you know, it's getting late and we have jobs and other stuff and Lisa's dying from her allergies, so Lisa: I am. Ken: Should end it here, right? Lisa: I know. Fuck. It's just weird because it's it's a summer, but the spring is supposed to be like supposedly th the worst time for allergies. But this Ken: have you seen how bad the air is outside? Like it it just looks like it's grey every day now. Lisa: Well there's a fire. A fire but Ken: Again. Lisa: Yes, you know about the the fire up in Burbank? Ken: I don't know. There's a bunch of fires everywhere. There was a fire at a frickin' there was fire fire in a frickin' warehouse. There's a fire in Lisa: Yes. Like P palm bell area. no, Lancaster area. because of the dry air. Yeah, it's a bad recipe, so everywhere. So I'm I'm close to yeah, I'm Ken: Fire, fire, something, something, pants on something. Lisa: close to one of the fires, so I'm like my allergies are fucking killing me. Ken: My eyeballs are dry as hell. That could be from it too. Lisa: Well you're staying at a screen all day though. Ken: I think my eyeballs are probably gonna fall out. Lisa: fuck. Yeah, I remember when I was like had a a desk job and staring at the screen eight hours a day, my eyes would get so dry I had had to go to like an ophthalmologist and she gave me like the like extra strength eye drops and she's like, Use these glasses and do this and try to look away and do a twenty seconds here like okay, I mean I can try, but you know. Ken: You know, that we'll be per it'll be perfect if we just had a real job. Well, not have a real job, we have this as a job, so we don't have to really stare at the screen. We could just talk to each other, and close our eyes and you know. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: I don't think at this part that you're gonna see a video version of us. I know I have a friend that's also doing a podcast, and I'll mention them later on, but yeah. But yeah, they're having it on video. I was like, that's very brave. I was like, we're not brave enough to be on video. We're not. Lisa: No. Ken: Unless you want to see me like picking my nose during the like the podcast. Which I'm not doing by the way, but I'm just saying I might Lisa: That's hot. On that note, Ken: I know right? Paris Paris Hilton. Lisa: I think it's time to go. Ken: Sorry Paris Hilton about what I said, be friends. That is hot. Okay, bye Lisa. Bye everyone. Lisa: Bye, Kara. Bye.