Latest / Wired to Build / Curiosity & High-Stakes Dialogue with Kyle Majchrowski

Transcript

Curiosity & High-Stakes Dialogue with Kyle Majchrowski · Wired to Build

0:00
Hey everyone, what's going on? Welcome to Wire to Build.
0:03
We're a data-driven technology focused podcast dig into how
0:06
building owners and operators use technology to manage the
0:09
full life cycle of our projects. I'm Nick Caravella, your
0:12
showrunner and curator, and I'm excited that you're joining us
0:14
today to talk about the people that drive the change in our
0:17
industry, you. So we are today going to be
0:20
picking up from our conversation two weeks ago with Kyle
0:24
Mastroski. He joins us from Banner Health
0:27
where he has serves as an owner representative to the
0:31
construction efforts, but has a background from subcontracting
0:35
to being a contractor and has really kind of built a career
0:39
around leading powerful conversations to help empower
0:43
teams. His work at Ripple and 10 is
0:46
actually some of what brought me to being excited to have him as
0:49
a guest on this show. When I first moved to Colorado,
0:52
it was a great opportunity for me to get to meet other
0:55
professionals in the industry, have powerful conversations with
0:59
them about where design and construction and owners and all
1:03
of that collaboration really needs to, you know, figure out
1:06
how to communicate a little bit better to improve the
1:10
performance. Our joint performance on
1:13
projects and so excited to have Kyle back.
1:16
We are going to be doing a very different flavor of episode
1:20
today where we're not, we're going to mutually workshop one
1:25
of the chapters from the book, which is on curiosity, excited
1:28
to kind of have a conversation. It's not where Kyle's going to
1:32
be leading a workshop. We're just going to actively
1:35
answer these questions together and kind of showcase how you
1:38
might be able to use the book with a peer of yours in the
1:42
profession. So without further ado, Kyle,
1:44
welcome back to the show. Is there anything you'd like to
1:46
share with the audience that I may have skipped over?
1:49
Let them get to know you, maybe if they haven't listened to the
1:51
first episode. No, I think you did a good job
1:54
on the introduction there. It, it sounds it can be
1:58
confusing, so I'll clarify. So yeah, my what I've, what I've
2:02
done on the owner's side for 20 years now is really focused on
2:08
the team aspect, the people side.
2:10
And so we started sharing that through Ripple Intent nonprofit
2:14
organization have founded a number of years ago.
2:17
And then that turned into authoring one book called
2:20
Powerful Conversations that allows people to do what we do
2:24
in a Ripple intent in a way on their own.
2:27
And so brings that power of the conversation to the individual.
2:32
And that's what we're going to walk through together.
2:33
So nice job in the intro. Thank you very much.
2:35
Excited to kind of dig into it. And as I said on the last
2:39
episode, it's very, very excited to kind of take my hands off the
2:43
wheel here. So maybe let's set the tone.
2:47
We're going to dig into curiosity.
2:49
How should we do this? Well, the way the book is
2:51
structured and the way that we're going to go through this
2:53
is we're going to walk through a series of questions.
2:55
We're literally just going to ask ourselves the questions.
2:57
And there is a there is a process to it.
3:00
There is a pattern that they all follow.
3:03
And 1st it starts with let's think about what it is we're
3:06
going to talk about. And then we'll talk about some
3:07
application that we've seen experienced or felt.
3:10
And then we'll talk about how we reach forward, how we carry on
3:13
parts of our discussion. So we're going to start with
3:16
that think piece, which is a great place to start when you
3:19
think about it, and we've thrown it out a few times.
3:22
The topic is curiosity. And so I think one of the very
3:25
first questions for both of us is what what does curiosity mean
3:29
to you? We say that word and we
3:31
immediately have ideas of what it is.
3:33
What? What does it mean to you, Nick?
3:35
That is, I love the I've been thinking about this all weekend
3:39
as we ramped up for the episode. And so, you know, curiosity to
3:43
me is approaching something, whether it be a problem or, or
3:49
some kind of state of being, I guess with the assumption that
3:55
you don't know or you don't need to know what's going to happen
3:59
if you if you act on it. And that curiosity is the
4:04
ability to ask the what ifs and say, well, if I do this, what's
4:10
going to happen and explore all the permutations around it
4:16
without the necessary need of action.
4:18
I think it was kind of the key for me.
4:20
How about yourself? That that is curious.
4:23
That's interesting. I I've always thought of
4:25
curiosity is something that that you did on your own, not
4:30
necessarily at work. It's more do it on your own
4:33
time, you know, go learn something or go dig into
4:36
something or something caught your attention that you may not
4:39
be knowledgeable about or skillful amount.
4:42
So you you act on your own curiosity and go learn about it
4:46
or go find out information about it or something like that.
4:49
So I never really applied it to work until someone was in a
4:54
meeting once. I think it was an architect.
4:55
No surprise. You know, we're we're talking
4:58
about a potential situation. Someone goes, well, that's
5:00
curious. And I was like, what do you mean
5:02
that's curious? Like what are we going to do
5:04
about it? So similar to you, It's like,
5:07
well, by saying that, are you not going to do something about
5:10
it or I'm not quite sure why you use that word.
5:13
So now I, I, I agree with you. I think it's something that
5:18
gives us space to explore what could be or what ifs or multiple
5:24
iterations without having necessarily beholden to doing
5:28
something with right away. And it's a funny you say like an
5:31
architect was probably who did it because that's I feel like
5:34
the very first lesson, at least my very first lesson in
5:38
curiosity as it pertains to architecture is almost every
5:43
architect could tell you this story is you'll you'll end up
5:45
building a model for your like first project and your professor
5:49
is going to walk over and take them all and, you know, flip it
5:51
upside down. And what if you did this?
5:54
And that was like the very big, that was like the very first big
5:57
professional, I guess lesson that I had in curiosity because
6:01
immediately I'm like, well, what if I didn't do that?
6:04
I had this other idea. How come we're not talking about
6:06
this and, and feeling all the, the loss of the other idea?
6:11
And now in hindsight, like reflecting on where our
6:13
conversations going to go of, you know, how powerful curiosity
6:17
was because there is times where those projects got flipped
6:19
upside down. You're like, holy crap, this
6:21
might even be a better idea. It's just, it's so it's so
6:25
interesting to it's what is it? The, the phrase is the you lose
6:29
sight of the forest through the trees and how curiosity can be
6:33
so impactful just by taking that step back and looking at it from
6:37
a different perspective. Just say, I feel like we're
6:39
actually, we have the same answers, just different flavors.
6:42
Yeah, absolutely the so, so the next one that if we build, if we
6:48
build on what we just shared of our perspective of what it is
6:51
and and could you pinpoint the last time you actually felt
6:55
genuine curiosity about something?
6:58
Oh goodness. I try to bring curiosity to to a
7:03
lot of but I do. And that's largely, I think
7:06
probably a function of how my career growth has has occurred
7:10
in the space where I don't do quote traditional architecture
7:13
anymore. I do a lot around strategy and,
7:16
and figuring out the better way, which often times means checking
7:22
what I know at the door. And so, you know, I think in the
7:25
instance of this podcast, you know, what if I had a guest LED
7:28
session where you're asking me questions that we're asking each
7:31
other questions is a a phenomenal example, but also to
7:35
avoid using that as a crutch. You know, I'm buying a house
7:38
right now, which is really exciting.
7:41
And as much as I know about the construction industry, I don't
7:43
know about home purchasing, right?
7:45
And so there's a lot of things where I don't always know and
7:51
there's times where I have other professionals who are telling me
7:54
from their deep bench of expertise things that I don't
7:57
fully understand. And so I often times have to
8:01
kind of ask the dumb question and be comfortable doing it.
8:04
And I'm saying, well, what does that mean?
8:07
You know, we just, I think a good examples, even from this
8:09
morning, we just got our appraisal done and the appraisal
8:11
was higher than what we put an offer in.
8:14
It's like this sounds like good news, but I don't know what it
8:16
actually means was exactly how I spotted to my my broker and
8:21
she's like, no, it is good news. And here's exactly what it
8:24
occurred, what this actually means.
8:26
And I was like, awesome. So that's probably a recent time
8:31
as early as this morning where I was able to kind of lead with
8:35
that curiosity and be able to be vulnerable without having the
8:39
answer. How about yourself?
8:41
I go, I go back to, so I have the learner strength on the, on
8:46
the Clifton strengths. I do a lot of work in Clifton
8:48
strengths. And so I know the learner went
8:49
very well. And it, it was, it goes hand in
8:53
hand with curiosity where if something catches my eye, I will
8:59
go deep. I'll, I'll be the one
9:02
researching, reading, buying books, watching YouTube videos.
9:05
I mean, I will go deep if I'm not interested.
9:08
No, my curiosity will get me to to do any of that effort.
9:11
But the, the last one where that really, really, really kicked in
9:15
was I think, when I started investigating the publishing
9:18
industry to understand how it worked and the best path to
9:22
actually produce a book. It, it was a good six months.
9:25
I interviewed people, I talked to people, I researched, I read
9:29
it. It was, it was an awesome time.
9:32
I mean, I had, I don't say no expectation.
9:35
I really didn't have an expectation going.
9:37
And it was just, I want to do this.
9:40
I got to go learn about it. Yeah, what was I I I want to
9:44
derail for having a second what was like some what was the aha
9:47
or something like really surprising to you about that
9:49
process that you just like had no idea it was something you're
9:52
going to get exposed to. So if you're, if you're, if
9:56
you're watching the video, you'll see I'm sitting in front
9:58
of my bookshelves and I read a lot.
10:01
I don't read as much as I as I like, but I do read a lot and
10:05
I've always held onto books is like this.
10:09
There, there, there's something serene about a book.
10:12
You know, someone took time to put it together to craft it.
10:16
And so most likely what's in it is a value.
10:20
There's good books and there's not so good books, but in in
10:23
general, most of the books are good.
10:25
And one of the most surprising things to me, Nick, was when I
10:29
met publishing house out of Southern California, that truly
10:33
their whole point was to put out crappy books, but the intent was
10:39
to use the book as a validation tool for the author to go out
10:43
and speak. Interesting.
10:45
And they were very clear. They're like, yeah, you sent us
10:48
a manuscript and, you know, in two weeks we'll have it edited
10:50
and we'll turn around and publisher for you.
10:52
And I'm like, really. Because no one else talks like
10:55
this. And they're like, oh, yeah,
10:56
yeah, we, we do this all the time, you know, And yeah, they,
11:00
they publish some bad stuff. And it was, I mean, I guess I
11:05
shouldn't be surprised. And maybe I'm just too, you
11:07
know, optimistic in general. But to me, it was really
11:10
surprising that someone's basically using what I hold near
11:15
and dear, you know, hold this, this, this is like a book is a
11:18
valuable thing, you know, like, yeah, we're just turning it into
11:20
a, a tool to get something else. And I'm like, oh, that, That's
11:24
sad. I guess the good news to that is
11:26
not all books are created equal, right?
11:29
It's, it's true. Yeah.
11:30
I, I would have you out there, but maybe there's some
11:33
publishers you should avoid too. And that can help filter things
11:36
down. Yeah.
11:37
But it is, you know, I think that also highlights, you know,
11:40
the curiosity aspect of why someone might want to write a
11:44
book and, and some people are trying to get on that speaker
11:48
circuit and show that they have cred and therefore want to
11:52
publish something for that level of validation.
11:56
It just goes back to highlighting.
11:58
We've been, this has been a recurring theme of how scrutiny
12:01
is going to be a human superpower, especially in the
12:03
day of AI where, you know, just because someone's published
12:07
something or just because someone has experience, that
12:11
does not mean they have experience with your specific
12:14
problem that you're trying to solve.
12:17
And that's where I think curiosity maybe as maybe a
12:19
better word than the scrutiny of being able to ask those extra
12:22
couple questions and learn a little bit more about what
12:25
someone's maybe motivators were. Aspirations possibly were behind
12:31
the things that they do, as actions can speak louder than
12:35
words. Yeah, that's a good point.
12:38
The the one that keeps coming up when we talk about curiosity is,
12:43
is it a, is it a skill? Is it a talent?
12:45
Can you teach someone to be curious or are people just
12:48
naturally curious? That's a really interesting
12:51
question and I want to have an answer to it, but I also want to
12:56
be be open minded because I feel like if I have an answer then
12:59
I'm not curious, right? To me it is something that is
13:04
normal and perhaps something that we are taught away from,
13:10
rather than something and then the T if if it can be taught,
13:15
it's really more about unteaching the things that
13:18
taught us to not be curious in the first place.
13:20
I think we see this all the time in project on boarding and then
13:24
also new employee on boarding. We, we are fantastic in our, you
13:30
know, get stuff done cultures of hey, all that really cool stuff
13:34
that got you the job that separated you from everybody
13:37
else and made you unique and special and all that stuff.
13:39
Yeah, we're going to ignore all that now that you're here
13:42
because now we're going to teach you for six months how you work,
13:45
behave and, and are successful in our organization or in our
13:48
team. And it's like right off the bat
13:50
we're telling people, hey, you know what, there's no room for
13:53
curiosity. You just need to learn how we do
13:55
things and get good at it pretty quick.
13:57
That's our expectation. I think you just keyed in on
14:00
like one of my early frustrations with teammates most
14:05
of the time is the lack of the curiosity.
14:08
And if I have to tell you the way to do it, then I start to
14:11
wonder if you are familiar enough or inquisitive enough to
14:16
approach problems and find solutions.
14:19
And this is internal dialogue that I'm now just voicing who
14:22
are putting some words to. But you know, people talk about
14:25
like attitude and aptitude as like 2 big reasons to hire.
14:29
You know, when it comes down to attitude, curiosity kind of
14:34
drives that can do. I don't need to know, but I will
14:37
try to figure it out some way. Mentality that yeah, if people
14:43
are coming into a playbook or coming into this is the way that
14:47
they're not going to be empowered to have that kind of
14:50
thinking where they'll be able to have the autonomy and energy
14:55
to grab a ball and say run with it.
14:57
Which generally, if I'm trying to build my team, I want
15:00
somebody who wants to grab a ball, run with it, make a
15:01
mistake, ask for advice, do all those kinds of fun things,
15:04
explore curiosity. And then I find when people
15:08
sometimes come and they don't have that energy, how I spend a
15:12
lot of time trying to figure out how do I get them to ask the
15:16
questions and get them to step out on the branch with and and
15:22
show that they're going to be safe.
15:23
I guess is that something that like a similar experience that
15:27
you have? Yeah, it, it has to be safe.
15:30
I mean, what you're describing, so you started describing about
15:34
your your teammates and it moved to environmental conditions or
15:39
conditioning. And I think that's one of the
15:41
things there's a lot of research around their own curiosity.
15:44
And of course, there's, there's plenty of articles out there
15:47
that say This is why curiosity is good at work.
15:49
And then there's a handful that show here's what actually
15:52
prevents curiosity from happening at work.
15:54
And I think what you're starting to go down is you you're using
15:58
or you're reflecting on some of those examples where you saw
16:01
people who were not embracing curiosity because of the
16:05
environment. So give you an example.
16:07
I mean, there's times in place for curiosity.
16:11
You know, fear of failure is a very real condition that causes
16:17
us not to explore our curiosity. I don't want the airline pilot
16:22
to be curious as to whether or not the 727 can do a barrel roll
16:26
when I'm flying to Dallas. You know, I don't want him to
16:30
act on that. So please don't do that.
16:35
But if the organization overall says we value certainty and we
16:42
talk about failing, it's a whole nother discussion.
16:44
We talk about failing fast, but then when you actually fail, we
16:47
get you in trouble. If those two things exist, then
16:50
you're going to hold back curiosity.
16:53
And then of course, you have age, experience, education,
16:56
you've got results driven. You know, we don't have time to
16:59
be curious. If we go back to our
17:01
definitions, curiosity is being able to act on and look at
17:04
things without a, an expectation of doing something right away.
17:08
Well, if you have a very high pressure driven environment, of
17:11
course you're not going to have curiosity.
17:13
You, you have to go focus on certain process.
17:16
You got to get the results. And so there's a lot of
17:19
environmental conditions that can withhold or throttle back
17:25
curiosity. Is there a time where you found
17:29
people who have maybe mastered curiosity where even in that
17:33
high pressure situation is able to kind of, and maybe this is
17:37
what comes with the experience, the able to look at a problem
17:40
evaluated and leverage some level of creativity and
17:45
curiosity in that solution? Or do we ultimately all get
17:50
pressured to play it safe at the end of the day?
17:54
You know, I, I, I see there's, there's a project that comes to
17:57
mind right away. Where there there's a deadline
18:01
like every project and there are good ways into the project are
18:05
good ways in the design. They're in for permit and they
18:08
still can't quite figure out how to deliver it.
18:10
It's a very complex, you know, and it's like the most complex
18:13
Rubik's Cube project, that thing I've ever seen.
18:15
And so the pressure continues to mount each day to deliver and
18:22
they still don't know what not not what they know what they got
18:26
to deliver. They don't know how to deliver
18:27
it. And so giving them permission,
18:32
it's like, OK, so you're pretty far along, but you still don't
18:36
fundamentally know how to solve this one really, really
18:39
complicated aspect of the project.
18:40
It's like, hey, I think you guys need to take time and look at
18:44
this again from the 17 different ways you've looked at it
18:48
already. Me stepping in and saying it
18:50
here, I'm giving you permission to relook at this thing.
18:54
Yes, I know it's going to slow us down.
18:56
I get it. We don't have time, quote UN
18:59
quote to do this right now. But it's like is is the four
19:02
days or whatever it is of investing that energy to relook
19:07
at those 17 scenarios, OK, you're going to immediately wipe
19:09
out six of them. Great.
19:11
You're going to do what ifs to to six of them and then six of
19:14
them would be like these are maybes.
19:16
Is that warranted right now? It's not so much as it
19:19
warranted. It's reinforcing to them, even
19:22
at this quote UN quote late stage of the project, now is an
19:26
awesome time to embrace the curiosity.
19:28
What if we looked at this really oddball situation that we came
19:33
up with a long time ago, but then we dismissed?
19:35
What if we revisited that or parts of that and that embrace,
19:40
you know, embracing them, giving them permission, telling them
19:43
it's OK, I know you're being pressured to get something
19:47
delivered in spite of that. I'm telling you, take the time
19:52
you need to explore what you want to explore.
19:55
This is it's brings me back to one of my first job lessons when
19:59
I was working in a restaurant and it was my first day.
20:03
I had just finished trading and the we were completely
20:07
understaffed and the restaurant got slammed.
20:10
So I went from. Like having a buddy with me at
20:14
every single table to now having like 9 tables of my own and no
20:20
life support. Basically I remember just being
20:23
in a panic and like I'm flipping through my notes trying to keep
20:25
track of all the orders that I had.
20:26
I'm trying to remember the orders that I forgot to write
20:28
down. And my colleague at the time
20:31
when he was Tracy King up to me. And she's like you look, you
20:34
look frazzled, like come with me.
20:37
And he's like that. Everyone hides in the walk.
20:39
And I think it's just the how cold it is in there just helps
20:42
you kind of do a little mini ice plunge and find your center.
20:45
And she just was like, take a breath.
20:46
And he was like, you could run around for the next 20 minutes
20:50
like a chicken with your head cut, head cut off, probably make
20:53
some mistakes, probably take care of most everything or
20:58
breathe, take a couple seconds, think about what needs to get
21:01
done, go back to the couple things that you need to check
21:04
and, and see how that's going to feel.
21:07
And in that moment, I learned just that power of like
21:11
recalibration, where slowing down did help me go a lot
21:17
faster. And I, and I, it's funny because
21:19
I believe Seth Godin even published an article and like
21:22
the impact of not making decisions and, and what have you
21:25
and Essex, sometimes when all the pressure in the world is
21:31
trying to make you make a decision, that is the time you
21:34
need to stop the most because nothing's going to happen in
21:39
there's no 24 hour problems. There's unless this is, you
21:43
know, you're a doctor or maybe there is some life and death
21:45
kind of situation. But in construction, very rarely
21:49
is there a 24 hour emergency that is going to make or break
21:55
something. And so finding that discipline
21:57
to slow down and reignite the curiosity, I think is really
22:01
powerful moment. Obviously, it does come with the
22:04
help that having the owner step in and say, hey, let's slow down
22:08
the person who's withholding the deadlines, realize that the
22:10
deadlines need to slide. So maybe a good question is when
22:14
you're finding yourself in this position where the pressure is
22:18
on you to deliver, how can you maybe leverage some of these
22:22
skills to talk back to an owner and talk back is the wrong
22:28
phrase of words, but but to can convey back to the owner that
22:32
may be slowing down is the right decision.
22:35
Yeah, I think it's it goes back to some of those.
22:38
I started touching on the barriers to some of the
22:40
barriers. Are they in place?
22:43
So we think about it. There's there's really five.
22:45
I don't want to be wrong. I don't want to fail our our
22:49
context over values certainty. Do you have different attributes
22:54
of individuals playing against the the curiosity and then this
22:59
feeling of extreme pressure to the liver are those
23:04
inadvertently preventing or causing people to withhold their
23:09
natural as a natural instinct their internal drive to say
23:14
let's be curious about this and see where it goes.
23:16
Can we are, are those things impacting us being able to raise
23:22
our hand, go down in a safe environment?
23:24
Is it safe enough to go? Maybe we should put this thing
23:26
on pause, whatever it is we're trying to decide.
23:28
Well, we don't have time. Well, if we if we make the wrong
23:30
decision, how is that going to impact?
23:32
Well, don't make the wrong decision because you can't make
23:34
the wrong decision. I didn't hire you to make the
23:36
wrong decision. It's like fair enough.
23:39
Happens a lot the the over expectation we have as owners to
23:45
hire design teams, sub consultants, contractors who
23:49
don't make any mistakes. I've always loved that.
23:52
I can't believe they did this. I know, I know they're full of
23:54
humans. They're not supposed to do those
23:57
things. Sure, but having some grace
24:00
there. But yes, so when you feel that
24:02
bubbling up, I think one of the biggest things because that's,
24:05
that's, that's the question. Like we both you and I have been
24:08
in situations where we're working with other people and
24:11
it's like, man, I really want to ask a bunch of questions, but I
24:13
don't feel like now's the time. For whatever reason, we convince
24:16
ourselves like, now is not the time.
24:18
And it's like, is it environmental or is it truly not
24:21
the time? And yes, it takes some courage
24:23
to raise your hand and go, Hey, I got some questions.
24:26
But I think it's worth recognizing that you're, you're
24:30
feeling that inside. And maybe I'm just grabbing
24:32
somebody and being like, Hey, I'm kind of wondering.
24:34
And if they're wondering it too, it's like, all right, could we
24:38
could we tag team this, some safety now this?
24:42
Is AI want to follow this up and we'll go right back to going
24:44
back to the book but how big a factor is imposter syndrome in
24:48
this because I I wonder at all the time of what of the
24:51
environmental conditions are actually self manufactured I.
24:55
Think we do a fantastic job of in our work environment in the
25:00
United States, I think do a fantastic job of giving imposter
25:03
syndrome a lot of lip service, like, oh, you should overcome it
25:06
and that sort of thing. But culturally, we don't give
25:10
people the ability to overcome it openly.
25:12
There's a lot of expectation to do the job that you are assigned
25:16
to and do it well and do it right and get better at it.
25:19
There's not a lot of expectation of, yeah, go ahead, go, go screw
25:22
some stuff up. Go, go make some mistakes, go
25:24
miss targets, go not achieve results.
25:27
We, we say that those are good things.
25:30
It's the right thing to say. But then when it comes to
25:32
actually behaving that way, the chasm couldn't be any bigger.
25:36
So it creates that imposter where I'm over here going, I
25:40
don't know what the hell I'm doing, but over here it makes it
25:42
look like I know what I'm doing, so I guess I'm OK.
25:44
And the whole time I got a ton of self doubt going on going.
25:47
I hope I'm not screwing up. And that may be, and I'm going
25:51
to go a little bit further. This is probably where failing
25:53
fast becomes a really valuable asset of yeah, I was I got I was
25:59
I was fortunate enough to meet Art Gensler before he passed of
26:02
Gensler Architecture. And there was a moment where
26:06
during his talk he was like, you know, the biggest problem
26:08
designers have is they always have great ideas.
26:11
And sometimes we need to deliver kind of very much in line at the
26:14
conversation is like, when do you stop thinking?
26:16
When you stop being curious? It's like, did you know it's OK
26:19
to write your idea on a a post in it and do that on the next
26:22
project? He was like, funny idea, right?
26:25
And it's, I think there's that I have opportunity to like think
26:28
about like when can I implement when is this idea appropriate
26:31
versus when is action appropriate that I think is
26:34
really powerful, which helps unlock some of the imposter
26:37
syndrome. Like who's driving this urgency?
26:39
Do I want to explore this idea right now or does my client want
26:42
to explore this idea right now? Perhaps.
26:45
And then like understanding and coming down to that, that
26:48
framework. And it's it's, it's always
26:52
interesting to have to weigh, to weigh the two between action and
26:57
and curiosity together. But I think I'm being able to
27:00
talk openly about this stuff. The more times we can ask the
27:04
what ifs, the more we can even get the buy in from some.
27:09
And maybe that's is maybe how do we, how do we frame curiosity
27:13
with our partners so that they're not taking it as either
27:18
A in decision or B decision so that they're part of a
27:21
conversation rather than a directive?
27:24
Absolutely. I mean, we're getting into some
27:26
of the application of our conversation here because one of
27:30
the things that that's really fun about going through the the
27:34
book and the way I've put it together is is we can ask the
27:37
question. So far we've been pretty focused
27:40
on you and I, our perceptions of curiosity, what we think about
27:44
and how we've experienced a lot of our stories are this is where
27:48
we've, we would have liked to do it, but if we weren't allowed or
27:53
didn't feel that way, The, the, the next question I have though,
27:56
is when you talk about application is where do you do
28:01
it? I say do it.
28:02
Where are you shutting down other people's curiosity?
28:06
That is a probably when I think I have an answer.
28:10
And so that's when I can obviously, as I think any human,
28:13
if I think I know the way I'm going to point in a direction, I
28:15
want to run in that direction and I'm going to have confidence
28:18
about it. And in many cases, because I
28:21
have that, I'm probably less open or less willing to hear the
28:26
other ideas because I feel like I we've got an idea that we're
28:28
going to run with. And I can think that that's
28:31
probably, if people who have worked with me or blah, blah,
28:34
like, yeah, spot on. Or maybe there's some a blind
28:36
spot. And feel free to shout out on
28:38
me, please on Adm or you can post it publicly.
28:41
But I think that's often times where I get my frustration
28:45
personally is like, if I, I've, I did my curiosity part, I
28:50
guess, and I came up with my idea.
28:51
Now I, I think we have a direction to run in and I get
28:55
excited about my idea. So I want to start running
28:58
versus realizing there's other folks in the room, people that I
29:02
need to have that conversation with, see what their ideas are
29:05
and evaluate them. Yeah, I do that with my kids all
29:09
the time. It's like they want to do
29:12
something and I'm like, Oh, I know how to do that.
29:14
And I'm like, and then the worst is like, they're going to screw
29:18
it up. And I'm like, oh, do I step in?
29:20
You know, as long as they're not like curious about playing in
29:22
the street and see what what results they get, then I could
29:26
be I've gotten a little bit better as they continue to get
29:29
older and I get older, but work is tough too, man.
29:33
It's it's like someone comes up an idea and I, I have to be very
29:40
self aware because part of my natural instinct is to think
29:44
through immediately the 50 why is why that idea is going to
29:47
fail. I'm really good at that, which
29:51
is I hate and then I like at the same time, people used to
29:55
experience it full force years ago.
29:58
It's like, hey, what if we did this?
30:00
I'd be like, that's stupid and just jump right in and and it
30:04
was, it was pretty awful. So it's it's not as awful that
30:09
still happens inside of me, but what the world around me
30:12
experiences is way different. It's like, I got an idea and I'm
30:15
like, OK, interesting. Let's let's play that out.
30:19
And I have learned how to adjust my own body language because
30:22
people are like, oh, I saw how you reacted.
30:25
And I'm like, I didn't react. And they're like, yes, you did.
30:28
I saw your face or I saw you move and I'm like, oh, damn it.
30:32
So I tell them I'm like, yeah, that's that's what's.
30:34
And they're like, oh, I know you're, you're thinking why this
30:36
won't work. And I said, I know, thank you
30:38
for giving me that grace. But I do realize that even my
30:42
own body language can can come across and shut down people's
30:46
curiosity accidentally. Well, that's it's, yeah, it's
30:49
crazy to even think of like communication goes far beyond
30:52
just verbal calms and how we, how we respond and sometimes
30:57
subconsciously respond to things going to have deep impacts on
31:00
the people we're supposed to collaborate with.
31:03
Man, this just this is, it's fascinating because I feel like
31:07
many a times reading books like yours that are in many ways like
31:12
it's self reflective, it gets stuck in the self.
31:15
And where I think your book is different is like it's, it's not
31:18
about the self as much as it's about everybody.
31:21
And so like one create, like page one, create room for you,
31:26
page 2 create room for everybody else kind of thing is really
31:31
powerful. Because what I, what I guess one
31:33
more story just to tie it to is like what happens when you're
31:37
the person who runs to every problem and solves every
31:39
problem, and then you start to observe people stop solving
31:43
problems because they've gotten the expectation that you're
31:47
going to run to it instead. And that doesn't scale in
31:49
leadership. It might work when you're a
31:52
junior and you're trying to learn new things and get new
31:54
exposure, but then as soon as you start becoming responsible
31:57
for a team, doing that does not set your team up for success.
32:01
At least that's for my personal experience.
32:04
Oh, absolutely. It kind of goes back to the last
32:07
episode. We were talking about structure
32:09
and policy and telling people how to do their jobs as opposed
32:12
to allowing them to do their jobs.
32:15
And that, that curiosity piece as a leader, especially it's,
32:19
it's if you know the answer, but you want to trust your team,
32:23
then you have to let your team explore and either revalidate
32:27
your answers, correct, or allow them to come to a different
32:30
answer. And catching, recognizing,
32:33
understanding your own inhibitions to curiosity, not
32:38
just with what ourselves, but then with others.
32:42
That's that's where this becomes really powerful because then you
32:46
can start impacting those around you.
32:47
And you can also give people permission to tell you, hey,
32:51
wait, wait, wait. Do you really want to shut this
32:52
down? Because I'd really like, Nick,
32:54
for you to let me give some space to this before we go and
32:58
go down that path that you really want to go down.
33:01
And then allowing people to simply ask that.
33:04
I mean, now you're starting to create that safe environment.
33:08
Is there anything we haven't talked about yet, really the
33:10
curiosity that we we should be as we're getting toward the end
33:14
of this conversation? Oh, there's all kinds of stuff,
33:16
but I mean, if we, if we look at where we we started and, and
33:21
this is where I think if we summarize all the different
33:24
topics in the books, when you, when you talk about, we start
33:28
with, OK, what is it? What is the topic doesn't mean
33:30
to us? How do we see it?
33:32
What do we know about it? Then it's where do we experience
33:35
it? How do we feel it?
33:36
How do we see it around us? We talked about both good and
33:39
bad with curiosity. And then the, the, the third
33:42
conversation is often reaching the out to other people.
33:45
So how does my own behavior, my own biases, my own views of the
33:49
world, my own experiences impact this topic, good and bad?
33:53
And that started what we what we ended on, which is OK, now let's
33:57
apply it not just to us as individuals.
33:59
Let's apply to the people around us.
34:01
I had stories about my kids. You get stories about work.
34:03
We can go on and on about various instances where we
34:08
probably could have taken a slightly different path or a
34:12
wildly different path and change the outcome of the dynamics and
34:16
the environment, all those things.
34:17
And so that that is a very consistent pattern.
34:20
But the thing that I think is really cool, Nick, is we've been
34:23
talking over 35 minutes and it's like, I feel like we just
34:25
started. It really does.
34:27
Like I looked at the clock. I was like, I can't believe I
34:29
have to wrap this right. Oh, man, no, this has been a ton
34:33
of fun and I really like, you know, creating space for these
34:36
types of conversations because it just wasn't.
34:40
It's I feel like I'm almost airing my own personal like
34:42
therapy sessions on this show. I'm like, man, this is a time
34:46
when I was not so great to work with, but to be able to reflect
34:51
on those moments and and treat myself, I guess, with grace and
34:54
and compassion as a person, recognize that I'm also
34:57
learning, I think is a really important self-awareness thing
35:00
that has been powerful for me, at least of you know, we were
35:05
big on accountability culture. And so trying to always approach
35:09
a problem with, well, where did I fail first before I start
35:12
pointing my finger is incredibly reflective and incredibly
35:17
powerful. It also needs to be measured
35:19
with like it's also not always my fault why something fell
35:22
apart and that's OK too. But but that that exercise
35:26
paired with the tools that are in your book, I think are really
35:30
powerful ways to help elevate the conversations and
35:34
createspace for people. And it was a big reason why, you
35:37
know, I wanted wanted you to have be on the show is just this
35:40
idea of and what I came back from every ripple intense
35:44
session with with oh, man, I need to be talking to people
35:46
more. I need to understand why they
35:49
are the way they are. I need to understand why I am
35:52
the way I am. And the more time I take to do
35:55
that, the better the teams that I work with will be.
35:59
And that's always been such a powerful thing that you've left
36:03
me with. So thank you.
36:04
That's awesome. That's well said.
36:06
I, I, I experienced the same thing.
36:10
You've got me questioning a handful of things around
36:12
curiosity that I will. I'm one of those people where we
36:15
have this discussion and then for the next couple of days I'm
36:17
going to be playing it back and reflecting on it.
36:19
Different parts and pieces will come back and and I appreciate
36:24
that. So thank you.
36:26
Get an honorable dension in book three if you keep going.
36:29
Absolutely awesome. Well, this has been so much fun.
36:33
I enjoy catching up with you every chance I have and so thank
36:36
you so much for reaching out. Thank you for the copy of the
36:38
book. I enjoy like flipping through
36:40
picking chapters and reflecting on different values every time I
36:45
pop it open. So thank you for that gift.
36:46
It's it's been very valuable for me.
36:49
Well, thanks for having me on this show.
36:50
It's been a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
36:52
All right, everyone, Well, that wraps just another wonderful
36:56
conversation. Kyle and I go way back and it
36:59
was really exciting. We we reconnected at Groundbreak
37:02
last year. We ran up to her happy hour and
37:05
had a copy of his book at his hand.
37:06
I didn't even realize at the time.
37:09
And so I was just like, this is awesome.
37:11
And usually, you know, I'm not always a quick reader of things,
37:15
but I really love the way he formatted his book where it's
37:18
kind of you can just pick a chapter, choose your own
37:20
adventure type, which in many cases when you're reading these
37:24
types of books, it's like, here's here's the playbook,
37:26
start to finish. This is much more of a book
37:29
that's structured to be a companion to conversations.
37:32
And I think that that's why it's as powerful and working in every
37:36
kind of cheeky statement that I could put it here.
37:39
But it's as powerful as it is, you know, I'm not paid for
37:43
emotion or anything with any other guests that we have.
37:46
These are folks that I've met a lot of travels and the
37:48
conversations that I've had along the way that, you know, I
37:51
came to the aha, I was like, how do we start to share these kinds
37:54
of conversations? Because to me, when I was, you
37:57
know, a practicing architect, it was really impactful and
38:00
powerful to be in a room and build relationships with people
38:03
who were practicing and had different perspectives so that I
38:07
could take that into the way that I problem solve.
38:10
So as much as this felt like, I think a book that talks about a
38:14
little bit of everything between work and life, and I think we
38:17
brought examples from both of it.
38:18
I do think this would give you a powerful framework to approach
38:22
and, and be thoughtful and reflective of anything that
38:25
you're trying to build a team around, build a conversation
38:28
around or just learn a little bit more about.
38:32
Sometimes you just need the tools.
38:34
You know, how many times are you really going to sit down and
38:37
say, well, what does curiosity mean to me?
38:40
So, you know, taking this away, I think, you know, curiosity
38:44
isn't really a soft thing. Being able to ask what if can
38:49
give you a really big leadership advantage, helps you build
38:53
strong teams, help you build strong confidence across those
38:55
teams, and it helps people come up with creative ways and be
38:59
empowered to come up with in creative ways to provide value
39:03
in anything that you set your mind to.
39:05
So if you're finding yourself stuck in conversations where
39:08
curiosity might feel like a luxury, you're not alone.
39:11
That's part of the reason we had this conversation today is just
39:13
to kind of showcase that it's OK to have this conversation in
39:16
real time in front of everyone who's might be listening.
39:20
So please, you know, share this episode with someone who you'd
39:24
like to have a powerful conversation with.
39:27
You know, if you haven't yet, please subscribe and like the
39:30
show, share it with colleagues. This is how we grow.
39:33
And until next time, stay wired to build.
39:36
Appreciate you tuning in and I'll talk to you on the next
39:39
episode.