Latest / Project Podcast / National Trust, part 3: What’s it like to be a project management apprentice?

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National Trust, part 3: What’s it like to be a project management apprentice? · Project Podcast

0:00
Absolutely. Anyone who thinks it might be
0:02
worth it should do an apprenticeship, because in
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project management, because it's it's the best way to really
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understand it and be able to study it theoretically and see
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it in practise as well. I think that's the most valuable
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part of it. So this is all new and it's part
0:34
of the project, yeah. Welcome to episode three of our
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series on the National Trust, an APM corporate partner.
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I'm Mermaid Evita. I'm your host.
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Today I'm back at Durham Park, a 17th century Mansion, House and
0:46
garden near Bath which recently underwent A multimillion #
0:50
transformation. If you listen to episode one in
0:52
the series, you will remember that I spoke to Mike Hudson,
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Head of Strategic Planning, Project and Programme
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Management, who gave me an overview of how important
1:01
project management and the National Trust partnership with
1:04
APM is to the success of the organisation.
1:07
I also spoke to Tim Camborne, a senior project manager who
1:10
oversaw the transformation programme for Durham Park, which
1:14
finished in 2023. In Episode 2, I covered a less
1:18
well known part of the National Trust's work in urban areas and
1:21
its focus on becoming Carbon Net 0 by 2030, interviewing 2
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childhood project professionals Joe, Dimitri and Denon to find
1:29
out about their work. I also travelled to Dagenham in
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East London to meet Emma King, who's helping to run a community
1:36
garden the National Trust has set up there.
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So we've heard from those at the top of the organisational
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project management tree. But let's hear from those who
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are just starting out in their careers.
1:47
It's time to meet three project management apprentices who all
1:50
started at the National Trust in October 2022 and are nearing the
1:54
end of that 18 month apprenticeship programme.
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After sitting APM's project management qualification, I'm
2:01
going to find out from them what it's like to be a National Trust
2:04
project management apprentice in an organisation that puts it at
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the heart of what it does. What if they learnt so far?
2:10
What projects have they worked on and where might their future
2:13
careers take them? First up is Rebecca Corcoran,
2:16
who works in the National Trust SW region and is based at Durham
2:20
Park and Prior Park in Bath. She studied ancient history and
2:24
art history at university and always wanted a job in the arts
2:27
heritage. Her work at Dyrham Park was
2:29
concentrated on its gardens, in particular the recreation of a
2:32
formal parterre. I met her on the terrace to find
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out more, so I'm here at Durham Park with Rebecca Corcoran, a
2:40
project management apprentice at the National Trust, who was
2:43
closely involved in the project in the is it formal gardens?
2:47
Yeah, so it's the formal gardens section of the house as opposed
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to the Parkland. We just outside this gorgeous
2:56
honey coloured mansion that was designed in the Baroque style, I
3:02
think in the late 17th century. We're just walking past the
3:06
orangery. Which parts of the house is this
3:09
that we're walking through? So this is the we're walking
3:12
into the formal garden here, OK, And these are not sure the house
3:17
was built in bits and pieces. I think this might be a neuro
3:19
section of the house with the stables.
3:23
So this is a courtyard. Yeah, I think this week we call
3:26
this area the stables. And you'll see there's some
3:30
evidence of, you know, when there were horses at the
3:32
property here on the right. Yeah, Now we come into the
3:37
formal garden. OK, we're coming out onto the
3:39
terrace, which is how you imagined a formal garden to look
3:45
and beautifully kept lawn. Is this the Porter?
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I don't, no. So we're going to go on to it
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now. So a partier is a formal garden
3:53
with enclosed beds and gravel. They were quite popular in the
3:57
17th century. So that's what the project is
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trying to do, is trying to recreate an element of the
4:04
garden. So it's not very literal, but
4:08
it's kind of a 17th century inspired part there.
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Is there any evidence of what the original party would have
4:14
looked like? Yes.
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So there's a 1712 Kip engraving, which is one of our primary
4:20
sources for the house and it wouldn't have been on the area
4:24
as we see it now on the drawing, it's just a depicted AS2 simple
4:29
squares of grass and that's what the National Trust did when we
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acquired the property in 1950s. We just restored the patches of
4:37
grass as depicted on the Kip engraving.
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But a different section of the engraving does depict this kind
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of part Tear Parterre de Broderie style and to the east
4:47
garden which is at the bottom of that hill as we came in.
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And so the inspiration has come from that and the Gardens team
4:58
designed a style based off of that and.
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You want to describe what we're actually looking at.
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Yeah, so yeah, in front of us now we have a acanthus leaf
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shaped formed from steel very low to the ground, about 150
5:13
millimetres off the ground surrounding the perimeter.
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We have not yet, but we're going to establish kind of hit low,
5:21
low rise head gene around the edges.
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Is this what we can see? Here.
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Yeah, exactly. Plants, yeah, yeah.
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And these will be topiary cones. So once these have become
5:29
established, the gardens team will be able to to trim them
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into kind of a pyramid shape or a cone.
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Shape. Is that what they would have had
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at the time? Yeah, I think it was a really
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popular type of garden design and it was something that should
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have been viewed from above as well.
5:45
Ohh so the gardens were designed to be looked at from the house.
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So the the exactly what we're looking at, which side of the
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house is this and. So this is the W Terrace.
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So we're at the West front of the house and and if you see the
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first floor here actually gives you a really nice view down and
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this is all open to the visitors and they kind of you see it a
6:05
lot better from above really. Yeah.
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But inside this embroidered pattern it's based the motif is
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an acanthus leaf which is a really popular design that's
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found on a lot of the embroidery and the textiles around Durham.
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And so that was what gave the garden team the inspiration for
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the design. And then we worked with the
6:23
landscape architect to actually put that into, put that to paper
6:27
and a metal fabricator was designed the whole steel
6:31
structure which came in and was all bolted together, very nerve
6:35
wracking. They lifted from a crane to here
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and over the historic balustrade.
6:40
Was that one of the biggest challenges of the project it's
6:43
actually getting everything into?
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Place. Yeah, I think so.
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Because if you can see, so Dan, the approach from the Westgate,
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this deal was brought in and then lifted on.
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And I think even sourcing that was probably the most
6:54
challenging thing because it's not something that a metal
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fabricator has, really, would really be doing very often.
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And so it's very unique, brief and a very unique requirement.
7:03
But we were lucky to have someone who was, you know,
7:06
really up for the challenge and they're actually quite local,
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they're only down the road. So it's quite nice to have that
7:11
local storytelling aspect. As well, it feels like.
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I mean, I feel it. I feel very lucky to be here
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right now before the house is open to visitors, so you can get
7:19
a sense of what it must be like to live here.
7:23
In the house. More from Rebecca's tour of the
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parter later, but join us in the slightly scruffy Behind stairs
7:32
rooms at Dyrham Park to talk more about what it means to be a
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project management apprentice at the National Trust.
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I want to ask you first of all what drew you to working at
7:44
National Trust and particularly its Project Management
7:47
Apprenticeship programme? Yeah.
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So I guess there, before I came to the National Trust, I was
7:53
working at another big heritage organisation and that's yeah, I
7:57
think so. So I was working at English
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Heritage. And so I guess in that sense,
8:02
National Trust was always kind of on my radar because they're
8:05
kind of the two big heritage organisations in the UK and I
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was joined that in a business support.
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And as part of that role, I kind of got an introduction to doing
8:14
some project support and that really kind of fascinated me.
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It really captured my attention. What did you enjoy about it?
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I I I think I just liked seeing the progress and and seeing kind
8:25
of disparate colleagues from across the country all come
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together with the powers of Zoom and things like that.
8:31
And to be able to to work on something and for them to be
8:34
experts in them, in their field and kind of come together and to
8:36
be able to deliver something. So that what is your appetite
8:39
for project management? Yeah, I think so because I don't
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think I really knew what project management was even before that.
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And yeah, I think seeing the the diversity of projects as well.
8:51
So it was working on a big project at Stonehenge and seeing
8:54
all the inner workings about that and but then also seeing
8:57
kind of small smaller scale projects just to replace the
9:01
visitor building and kind of yeah, really is that behind the
9:04
scene look into how these properties run, which I thought
9:08
was really fascinating. OK, thank you.
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What does being an apprentice at National Trust actually involve?
9:14
You Give us an idea of the support you get and the benefits
9:18
it brings to you would be great. Yeah.
9:21
So I think one of the good things about being an apprentice
9:24
here is I think it's slightly different for everyone and in a
9:26
way because you know, everyone is paired up with a kind of
9:30
mentor line manager who is an expert in the in their fields
9:34
and they're typically project managers.
9:36
So I guess your experience is tailored to who you're working
9:39
at with and what projects you're working on.
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But for me it's it's but like and kind of having the
9:45
opportunity to support different projects across the Southwest,
9:49
not getting involved but also just shadowing and getting to
9:52
see what's going on and. So actually your role as an
9:56
apprentice is you're actually doing proper, real work on
10:00
projects, but you're also shadowing, yeah?
10:02
And then are there other elements of learning and support
10:04
that are open to you? Yeah, exactly.
10:06
So I do about four days a week either actually working on
10:10
project activities or I'm shadowing kind of CPD doing and
10:14
extra learning and kind of the heritage field.
10:18
But then I always block out one day a week for our kind of
10:21
formal learning and that is with a kind of formal training
10:25
college who provide us with that and that learning.
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So we have a a monthly workshop which you know on a topic around
10:33
project management, but then we also have coursework and then we
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were preparing for the PMQ exam as well.
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So yeah, it's nice to have that balance of work, business as
10:45
usual work working on projects but also having that time kind
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of carved out in your diary for that learning and I think they
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really that's really complimented and.
10:54
So yeah, yeah. So you have support from a
10:57
mental and also are you you know, do you get together with
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the other project management apprentices?
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Yeah. And that's something I wasn't
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really expecting, but has been a really nice thing as part of it
11:09
is just having that kind of community.
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I think there's 10 or 11 of us that started in my cohort and
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they've been an invaluable source of support.
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Some people were already working in the trust and before moving
11:22
to the apprenticeship role. So it's nice to have people who
11:25
are kind of on the journey with you and and they're who we did
11:29
all the workshops with. We did all our learning together
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and a lot of us sat our PMQ exam around the same time.
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So it's been really nice and I feel like we're all, you know,
11:38
interested in staying on in project management.
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So it's kind of like with the next generation or something and
11:43
which is, which is nice to kind of build that network and
11:45
community. Own sourced about the other
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projects you're working on at the moment or have worked on in
11:50
the past 18 months. So you have Deer and Park, yeah.
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I have Deer Park and then I also have a prior park in Bath which
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I've done some work on. So what's probably park?
12:00
So that is a. Palladian Garden and that has
12:04
recently undergone restoring the dams there And so I kind of came
12:10
in at the tail end of that when they were you know the dams had
12:13
been restored and they were finishing up with the
12:15
reinstatement planting and some last minute things.
12:18
And I think one of one of my early jobs was to delay could
12:22
kind of become overgrown with bull rush this type of Reed.
12:26
And and a big thing about Prior Park is the fact that the
12:29
Palladian Bridge is being able to be reflected in the the lake,
12:33
but that had been lost because of this project work and the
12:36
lakes have been drained and the they've been created the perfect
12:40
conditions for these you know reads to grow and kind of
12:43
overtake the lake completely. They're those huge things.
12:46
They're. Absolutely huge.
12:47
Yeah. So the project will kind of left
12:49
with an issue of like how do we even get rid of these, you know,
12:53
like a massive amount of material And we obviously wanted
12:56
to do it in a sustainable way as well and we didn't just want to
12:59
Chuck them in general ways. Are there any other projects
13:02
that you're working at the moment?
13:04
Yeah. So I'm actually taking the lead
13:07
on a project down in Dorset, which is Hive Beach located next
13:11
to a small town called Burton Bradstock.
13:13
And and that's been a really great opportunity to kind of
13:17
have that experience on on leading, leading A-Team and how
13:21
big is your team. It's not very big, 19 and one.
13:26
OK. So we there's a project forward
13:29
that I set up and reports to them on a monthly basis and and
13:33
that's been really helpful and I think they're really encouraging
13:36
and supportive as well and they know I'm an apprentice and they
13:39
know I'm learning. So it's it's nice to have that
13:42
kind of safe space to to make mistakes and to maybe not say
13:46
something perfectly. Yeah.
13:48
So that site is looking, It hasn't had a lot of investment
13:50
in a while, but it's a really amazing outdoor hub and gateway
13:54
to the Jurassic Coast. And so we're looking at
13:57
improving the visitor infrastructure there, making it
13:59
more accessible for visitors there.
14:01
We want to add a a changing place facility.
14:03
So that's kind of for people with additional needs, it's kind
14:06
of one step above a disabled toilet and it's something the
14:09
trust is committed to putting into all our properties.
14:11
And so, yeah, we're looking at putting that in there and just
14:15
making several other kind of improvements that will improve
14:17
the visitor experience then. So that's that's amazing and.
14:22
So this is the first time you've led on a project.
14:24
Yeah, what? Ohh wanted to ask you.
14:27
What have been the biggest lessons you've learned about
14:30
project management so far, either on the technical side of
14:35
things or actually personal skills or qualities you need to
14:38
be a good project manager? Yeah.
14:40
So I think what was probably the hardest thing when I came in is
14:46
I was working on these construction projects to begin
14:48
with and. At the National.
14:49
Trust. Yeah, at the National Trust,
14:51
Yeah. So you know here at Durham and
14:53
Prior Park, it was all quite infrastructure focused and and I
14:57
guess that was a bit daunting for me because I have no
14:59
experience, I don't think I'd ever, ever, ever read like a
15:03
blueprint or a a kind of an architect drawing.
15:06
Yeah. So I think something I've
15:09
learned is you don't have to be an expert in everything and you
15:13
just kind of need to be able to bring the right people together
15:16
to get what you need. So that that's been the most eye
15:20
opening thing for me is that you know those things come with time
15:24
and those smaller things. So don't get caught up worried
15:27
about the detail and just knowing that you're there to
15:30
facilitate and to drive progress and to make a plan and and yeah,
15:35
so I'm how important relationship building is for
15:38
that and kind of winning support and getting people on your side.
15:41
And yeah, it's it's something that I've really learned over
15:45
the past 18. Months Really important lessons.
15:48
What are the unique challenges or unknown sources of enjoyment
15:54
working for projects in the National Trust?
15:56
Because it's a pretty unique place.
15:58
Yeah, yeah. Like I was saying at prior park,
16:01
there's there's always those, you know, nothing is
16:03
straightforward, there's always those those access challenges or
16:08
you know you're running a visitor business here and you're
16:11
and so whenever projects are happening, you need to be so
16:14
mindful of that And not only do we need, we want to keep these
16:17
places open for people to enjoy, but we also want them to make
16:21
them last forever. So sometimes, you know, it's a
16:23
balance between those two things is, you know, having these
16:27
amazing spaces but also ensuring that you know, we're preserving
16:31
them in the right way. And so there's definitely a lot
16:33
of unique challenges and anytime you want to do anything to any
16:37
sort of building, you know, there's a lot of bureaucracy and
16:40
hoops to jump through. And so that all adds time and
16:43
adds money and but I think it makes the end result even more
16:48
satisfying in a way because you know, you get to the end of it
16:51
and they're all there for good reasons.
16:53
All these, you know so. A question I wanted to ask you
16:56
about Dearham was that I know with your background in kind of
17:02
history and art. Yeah, you did art history,
17:06
didn't you? Yeah.
17:07
Yeah. So to have access to a place
17:11
like this where there is important artworks are, there's
17:13
delftware here and how, how, what's that?
17:18
What's that feel like to be actually working in a place
17:21
where you have access to all these beautiful things?
17:25
Yeah. And learning about them, they've
17:27
been any surprises or? It feels yeah it definitely
17:30
feels surreal to kind of be when you're walking through the and
17:34
you see the collection items in the room.
17:36
And I think I've learned a lot from the that the volunteers.
17:40
So Durham will have kind of room guides in every room and they
17:43
are some of the like fountains of knowledge.
17:45
They know so much and I've had volunteers point out little
17:49
aspects of a picture like fine details and where there's like a
17:54
man or if you look really closely, you can see a man
17:56
gardening in these huge massive pictures.
18:00
And. And I think that's been really
18:02
enjoyable, just to be able to meet and talk with people who
18:05
are there every day and kind of who make Durham happen and.
18:08
I guess the artworks in in situ. Yeah, exactly.
18:12
As they were like meant to be enjoyed.
18:15
In a way. We're just kind of removed from
18:16
the context of the museum and it kind of, you know, it adds to
18:20
the room. It's, it creates that
18:22
atmosphere. And so I think it's quite a
18:24
different experience from seen in a museum and.
18:26
Personally, what? Which objects or artworks have
18:29
impressed you the most, or that you've loved the most here?
18:33
And well, with the one that's probably the most interesting,
18:36
we do have like a I'm going to get the terminology wrong, but
18:39
there's a King's estate room bed.
18:42
So basically a lot of period houses would have had a room
18:46
dedicated if to try and entice the king to come and visit.
18:50
And we have that that bed that was never used.
18:53
I don't think the king ever came, but it's where he would
18:55
have stayed. And it's on the ground floor in
18:57
the house. And yeah, I find that like a
19:00
really interesting part of the story and it it kind of
19:02
humanises and the people who used to live here a little bit.
19:05
And yeah, I really, I really loved that story.
19:10
Yes, and welcome to the. Park the late. 70s We'll rejoin
19:14
Rebecca later on to discover more about her work on Durham
19:17
Park. But next let's meet Flora Smith,
19:20
another apprentice who works at the National Trust Central
19:22
office Heelis in Swindon, where she sits in its support and
19:26
revenue department. It's the bit that makes income
19:30
from the trust, she explains. So that means food and beverage,
19:33
shops, holidays, and more importantly for her, car parks.
19:37
I began by asking her what it's like to be plugged into her
19:40
network of project professionals within the National Trust, with
19:44
an open invitation to visit projects at Pico.
19:46
Interest anywhere? Influence.
19:52
Sounds great. Yeah.
19:53
And this is what the Trust is so well.
19:56
Everybody I've spoken to in project management in the trust
20:00
is so willing to tell you about their journey, what they're
20:04
doing, the challenges, the the good times and bad times, and
20:09
also just take that time to be interested in your development.
20:13
And I found that with every, every single e-mail that I've
20:17
fired off, they've always come back and they've been.
20:20
Just some of the most lovely people that I've met and so
20:24
willing to give up some of their really busy schedule just to
20:27
spend some time with me to explain different areas of the
20:31
trust and different approaches when it comes to project
20:35
management as well and how they kind of came into project
20:40
management and the different ways you can come at it.
20:43
So when I first started we were I was looking at booking an
20:47
events and holidays and that was looking at the website and so it
20:52
was very more IT based which a lot of the support and revenue
20:58
projects do run alongside it. How did how did you find that?
21:03
Did you have any IT experience before that?
21:05
No IT experience. So you see kind.
21:08
Of it was a jump in the deep end.
21:10
And. Yeah.
21:11
But it's been really great to get that side of it because
21:15
there is just slightly different challenges versus if you're
21:19
doing a construction project or a conservation of a like
21:24
rewilding A wetland, it's completely separate and
21:28
different and there's like slightly different processes
21:31
when it comes to it. So it's been really great
21:33
getting that exposure and I've been really unique in having
21:37
that because none of the other apprentices, apprentices have
21:41
experienced that. So it's been really good, but
21:45
initially I didn't know very much about it and I I still say
21:49
I know surface level IT, but yeah, so I sit more on the
21:57
business side. So I sit underneath business
22:00
project managers, but it's really interesting to see how
22:02
they work with it, project managers and what the
22:05
relationship is there. And it's taught me a lot about
22:09
sort of how to manage those kind of relationships because it's
22:13
sort of equal power. But there's also a lot of
22:16
communication and a lot of sorting out roles and
22:18
responsibilities in terms of having two people on one project
22:23
that are project managers. But it's it's amazing when it
22:27
works really, really well and it makes sense that there is two
22:30
people because sometimes the IT side is very complex and and it
22:37
does take someone who does know a bit more of that side.
22:41
And for the business it's good because they connect back in
22:45
with the people. So then you've got that sort of
22:47
link between IT and people. That's hugely important for a
22:52
project to be successful. Can you tell us maybe about one
22:57
project that you found particularly rewarding or that
22:59
you learned the most from? Yeah, so I'm currently on the
23:03
car parks technology replacement project and.
23:07
Is this for Cox across the whole?
23:09
Across the whole trip so. I can't imagine how many coal
23:11
pots. Are there it's like about 230?
23:16
Car. Parks.
23:17
So in total, but that includes laybys and things like that.
23:20
It might even be more. I might have got that completely
23:23
wrong, but it it's definitely over 200 technical car parks and
23:28
then there's only a certain amount that actually have
23:30
machines and things currently at the moment.
23:33
So what's the kind of project scope and objectives?
23:36
So Ohh scope is replace. The technology is primarily the
23:44
biggest thing that we need to do because currently we are quite a
23:49
way behind a lot of other car parks.
23:51
We don't even have card. Readers.
23:54
So you can only pay by. Cash.
23:57
And so that's a huge thing and that the machines are failing.
24:01
And so that's kind of the basic scope, but also links into the
24:05
wider kind of thinking of the trust of looking into our
24:09
outdoor spaces and putting a bit more focus and a bit more
24:12
attention and care. Because since COVID there's been
24:15
a huge rise of people coming to our outdoor spaces because they
24:19
realise, wow, there's a National Trust space like in the Lake
24:22
District and even the South West Coast.
24:25
And there's a huge amount of missed opportunity where we can
24:30
get people to engage with us and that we've just not had before.
24:36
Because when people think of National Trusts they just think
24:38
of old houses basically. But that it's it's so much more.
24:42
And even when I first started being an apprentice here, I
24:46
didn't realise how complex and how massive it actually really
24:49
is. And it is amazing.
24:52
It's terrifying, but it is amazing how much the National
24:55
Trust actually does cover. Are you mentored at all so you
24:59
have a mentor? So how valuable is that been?
25:04
It's so valuable. Like I have a I have a mentor
25:07
and also my line manager and the project manager I work with.
25:11
I can't thank them enough. They have given me so much
25:15
support over the last year and a bit with my apprenticeship.
25:20
They're constantly checking in on me.
25:22
We have regular meetings and it's nice because they also tell
25:27
me the problems that they're having with their projects and
25:31
things like that. And they ask for my advice.
25:33
And I feel comfortable because initially going into it, when
25:35
you're with people who've been doing it for so long, it's
25:39
really nice that they also respect your opinion too.
25:41
Yeah. And they're also seeking for you
25:44
to find it for yourself. And I've always had that
25:47
encouragement from them. And I'm actually, I'm dyslexic.
25:52
So I have a lot of sort of difficulty when it comes to
25:56
trying to type up things and I might take a bit longer.
26:00
And they've always given me so much grace with it and they've
26:04
been there to support me with that.
26:06
And and I kept continually asked, what can I do to help you
26:11
with that Or if I have struggled, I've never felt like
26:14
I couldn't reach out and say please can I have help with
26:18
this. And yeah, they're constantly
26:20
giving, giving me challenges, but knowing when the challenge
26:24
is too much, they they're pushing me in the right
26:27
direction basically, but not pushing me off the edge of the
26:31
Cliff. It's they.
26:33
Yeah. I can't thank them enough for
26:36
their support. And they've, yeah, encouraged me
26:40
and allowed me to kind of come and even do podcasts here and
26:44
also go and visit the other apprentices.
26:47
They've said, Yep, straight away, like that's a really good
26:50
idea. I'm glad you're taking that
26:52
initiative. You, you go with it.
26:54
And if it's been my idea, they've been more than happy
26:57
enough to support me. And so when you've got that
27:00
level of support from lots of different people, does that go
27:03
hand in hand with real responsibility working on
27:07
projects? You're actually given real work
27:11
to do and trusted to do it, but a kind of, I guess, in a safe
27:14
environment. Yeah.
27:16
So they I will still go and ask for them to check some things
27:21
and even though they know that they can trust me and they've
27:23
said this to me I still have that little like ohh could you
27:27
just check and they're they're more than willing to say yeah
27:31
that looks perfectly fine carry on and and yeah my I was really
27:37
lucky sort of my project manager and my line manager has given me
27:42
work that's specifically mine and I've owned and I've produced
27:46
and I've gone out and done sort of the stakeholder comms and
27:50
sort of organised my own like little mini project within it.
27:53
So with the car parks one I went out and found car parks
27:57
solutions. So where people have tried to
28:00
overcome challenges in their car park, whether that's sort of
28:04
having a park run and they've got to read just how the car
28:08
park actually works and maybe change how they sort of run
28:13
their car park to allow park runners to come and just park
28:17
for that little bit and then go to vandalism.
28:22
So someone set up CCTV, Wi-Fi cameras in a particular car park
28:28
and just I my aim for that was to just bring a load of case
28:34
studies together and contacts for other car parks to then see
28:38
and go, ohh, I've got a similar problem and their car park
28:42
sounds pretty similar to mine. Maybe I can use that and maybe
28:46
that'll just alleviate some of the problems that we're facing.
28:49
So at the moment and to sort of go alongside sort of the
28:55
replacement technology project that's also happening.
28:59
And they gave that to me to sort of own produce and then send out
29:04
and distribute. And that was really good because
29:07
it did teach me a lot about how to sort of engage with people at
29:11
property, setting up meetings and stuff and being sensitive
29:16
sort of with information and things like that, because car
29:20
parks for a lot of properties are a touchy subject.
29:25
Are there any kind of other benefits or opportunities being
29:29
on a an apprenticeship programme like this that that you've
29:35
really appreciated? I think I've liked the way that
29:39
I've learned it's not. How do you mean?
29:42
As in, it's been sort of my time to learn and things like that.
29:47
It's I think I've managed to gain experience and also do the
29:53
qualification and I can apply them which is nice because I can
29:56
physically see it rather than sort of when you're just
29:59
studying for an exam say if you do an intensive course and
30:03
you've got all the theory behind it but you don't have the
30:05
experience. And I think that's what's been
30:08
great about this apprenticeship and which why I wanted to do it
30:11
because I looked at it and I was like that's the way that I want
30:14
to learn on the job. I can apply real situations to
30:19
things that I'm learning about in the modules and and other
30:23
things like that. And yeah, I think that's what
30:28
attracted me to sort of apprenticeship rather than just
30:31
doing another qualification. Because sure, I could just try
30:35
and study project management, but I don't think I would have
30:38
ever fully understood it unless I was actually there.
30:41
Yeah, that makes sense. And has it sold you to a career
30:47
in project management? Is that where your foreseeable
30:51
career lies, do you think? I definitely think so.
30:55
But I also like, I'm open to anything.
30:58
I think it's given me a lot of transferable skills.
31:01
I think at the root, project management just gives you that
31:05
sort of place to apply yourself. So in any kind of field, there's
31:11
so many skills that you pick up that you can just bring to other
31:14
places and things. And especially those people
31:17
skills, I think they're hugely misunderstood and they're hugely
31:21
important to very loads of jobs and especially sort of
31:25
management jobs in general. But currently I think I would
31:31
like to stay in the trust and I'd like to stay in project
31:34
management. Ohh was she the best of luck for
31:36
that? Thank you.
31:37
Keep my fingers crossed. Yeah, this is my favourite.
31:42
Finally, I meet Maddie Hills, who works in the National Trust
31:45
Project and Programme Management Office.
31:47
After studying Asian Pacific and North Korean studies at
31:50
university, I began by asking her why she wanted to work at
31:54
the National Trust. So my whole childhood was going
31:59
to National Trust properties, which I think a lot of people at
32:01
the same yeah. So I've always known about the
32:04
trust and always loved the trust.
32:06
And when I was had finished uni and was looking into what career
32:11
I wanted to pursue, I started looking into internships at 1st
32:17
and then I was looking at the trust because when I was at
32:21
university I did a lot of volunteering.
32:23
So I thought perhaps in my year off I could start looking at
32:26
volunteering, just to get a bit of experience.
32:29
So I was originally looking at the trust to start volunteering
32:33
and then I saw that they had apprenticeship programmes and I
32:36
thought it would be perfect because obviously I'd spent five
32:39
years at uni but I didn't have any work experience at all.
32:43
So I knew that finding a job was going to be incredibly
32:45
difficult, but then the apprenticeship programme, it
32:50
offered me such a great opportunity to actually enter
32:53
the workforce and be able to learn a trade as well, which I
32:59
wasn't expecting. So I looked into project
33:02
management and it seemed like it fit quite well with my
33:05
personality and the sort of the variation of things that you
33:11
could be doing. And obviously thinking further
33:13
ahead with my career, I could go into so many different things
33:17
with a project management qualification.
33:19
So these forces are kind of transferable skills.
33:22
Or, yes, exactly. Training you would get.
33:24
Yeah, yeah. And obviously having already
33:28
loved the Trust for so long and my degrees at uni were very much
33:33
history and culture based, so it was something that felt like it
33:37
fit very well for me. So I'm incredibly lucky that I
33:41
applied and I got the position. I mean, you're based in the
33:44
central office in the PMO, the project and programme management
33:49
office. I guess, um, that must give you
33:54
a kind of opportunity to have an overview of the entire trust
33:58
work with it, you know, project management.
34:02
How do you find that? Is that it's?
34:04
Incredible. I think before I started working
34:07
with the Trust, I didn't understand the breadth of the
34:10
work that is done. And obviously project work is
34:14
such a huge way that the Trust delivers its ambitions.
34:19
And being in the PMO that we have insight to so many
34:23
different types of projects and obviously with our whole purpose
34:29
is to support the project community.
34:30
So we get to go and visit lots of different projects to sort of
34:34
understand better what they're doing and how they work and sort
34:39
of the type of support that they need from us.
34:42
So we're able to you know get that kind of insight and we've
34:47
we also get to do sort of volunteering.
34:49
So we sort of take the opportunity to visit different
34:53
properties and actually get a bit hands on with the type of
34:56
you know context they're working in.
34:59
We've done tree planting and fence building on a beach and we
35:05
get just such incredible opportunities.
35:07
And it's really you don't understand how complex an
35:12
organisation like the Trust is from the outside.
35:15
And one of the projects that also the main project that I
35:19
work on is the Planning and project Platform Modernization
35:25
project. That's a mouthful, not me.
35:29
So basically it's looking at the implementation of a digital
35:33
solution to help project managers do what they do.
35:37
And so it's a PPM tool, OK, really.
35:40
But we're really focused on how that's going to be embedded and
35:45
what the project community need from it because we don't want to
35:49
implement something that isn't going to suit the way that they
35:52
work. So that's a hugely IT based, but
35:58
it's also got that sort of business management side of it
36:01
and everything that we do is about the communities that we're
36:05
doing it for which is the staff at the National Trust.
36:10
What? What's it like coming in as an
36:12
apprentice? And when I first started, I was
36:14
doing a lot of sort of supporting the other team
36:17
members and what they were doing and a lot of observation.
36:20
But I quite quickly sort of took on my own work, which.
36:24
Was is that encouraged? Yes, yeah, it was really
36:26
encouraged. And my team are so supportive
36:29
and they've always been really eager to help me learn and to
36:35
sort of push me gently to take things on myself And but the the
36:44
sort of breadth of the things that I've been able to
36:46
experience like I've I've it's only been just over a year and
36:51
I'm in such a different place now.
36:53
Like I've got so many more skills and experience in
36:56
different areas. Do you think that's one of the
36:59
advantages of working in the PMO?
37:01
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
37:03
Yeah. Because we've looked at because
37:06
obviously we own a lot of the tools that our project managers
37:09
use and that covers you know, more sort of scheduling and sort
37:13
of day-to-day running, but also like finance management.
37:17
So stuff that I never would have even thought that I need
37:20
experience in. But it's been so useful in sort
37:23
of my overall understanding of what project management is and
37:26
everything that it entails. Is it what you imagined it to
37:29
be? No.
37:30
What did you imagine project? Management.
37:31
I don't think I really had an idea to begin with, yeah,
37:35
because I I'd never really even heard of project management as a
37:39
career. And obviously thinking that I
37:42
was coming into the Trust, then I sort of had this picture in my
37:45
head of what I thought the trust was originally.
37:48
What? What was that picture?
37:49
Which was historic houses, yeah. And I thought, ohh, the projects
37:53
must be all to do this, This is historic places.
37:56
And then obviously understanding more about the expanse of what
38:02
work that involves, I don't think I ever could have
38:05
understood. I don't think many people really
38:07
appreciate, unless you work for the National Trust, just how
38:10
much goes on behind the scenes. Yes, yeah.
38:13
It's such an extensive place and it's incredible really to think
38:19
that everything that they do on the surface, that's got so much
38:23
that has to support it and we, I don't think anyone would realise
38:28
how big of an organisation it is, but it needs to be to
38:32
deliver what we're trying to deliver.
38:34
So yeah, it's so interesting. Because you're on an
38:38
apprenticeship programme, there's obviously a structure
38:41
and a framework and which, which OPM, you know has laid out.
38:48
How beneficial has that been for you to have that structure in
38:54
place? What advantages has it brought
38:56
you and are you sold on the idea of being a project?
38:59
Manager Yes, I am sold. The structure has been
39:03
incredibly useful because like you said, I had no experience of
39:07
project management at all. So having it broken down so that
39:12
I could really understand it sort of step by step and in a
39:14
logical process. I think coming into project
39:17
management, if I was sort of presented with everything at
39:20
once, it would have been way too overwhelming.
39:23
But being able to go into it in a really clear, sort of
39:27
methodical way and sort of build up that understanding through
39:30
the stages and understand it that way has been so much better
39:36
and easier for me to actually be able to comprehend what project
39:39
management is. And does it give you a clearer
39:44
definition? Yeah, definition of a career
39:47
path that you can envisage. Yeah, yeah.
39:51
And. What are your ambitions for your
39:53
future? Career.
39:54
That's a good question. Well, I think first and
39:57
foremost, staying with the Trust is probably my priority because
40:01
I just love the National Trust so much.
40:04
But um, project management definitely as well.
40:09
I would love to be able to continue project management here
40:13
because there's just so many opportunities and if I I could
40:19
be doing 1 project on a coastline and then move to doing
40:23
something more in a historic house or the opportunities are
40:27
really sort of endless. What's it meant to you to get
40:31
your project management qualification?
40:34
It's been a huge, yeah, it was such a milestone of thinking.
40:41
Ohh, wow. I actually do.
40:42
I do know project management and I I can do this and.
40:46
The good thing? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
40:48
To go from not knowing anything to now having a qualification, I
40:53
mean it's going to be a huge just step in my career that I
40:58
can have that on my CV and say, look, I I do know things.
41:02
I have done this for a year now. Can you imagine one day going
41:07
for childhood? I think that would be a way off
41:09
yet, but that would be an incredible step and several
41:12
members of my team are charted Hmm.
41:16
And so to see them sort of go through that process has been
41:19
great and sort of understand what steps are are open in the
41:23
future and it's it's great to see that it's not just sort of 1
41:27
qualification and that's it. There are so many steps that you
41:31
can take to like improve and grow yourself as a project
41:35
manager. So it's it's great to see that.
41:38
What do you enjoy most about your apprenticeship or the work
41:41
that you've done so far? And I think learning, which I
41:47
don't know if that's a good answer or not but yeah,
41:50
absolutely. Yeah, I'm, I love learning.
41:52
I mean, I did five years of university because I love
41:55
learning, but that's been such something that I really enjoy.
42:01
And especially being in the PMO, every piece of work that I do,
42:05
I'm learning something new about either the Trust or project
42:08
management. Especially within the trust
42:13
itself. Learning is really valued and
42:17
and being an apprentice, it means that I'm always
42:22
comfortable asking questions. Yeah, or like, I don't feel like
42:27
I'm the only one who doesn't know this.
42:28
So because it doesn't matter, because it's so emphasised in
42:32
the Trust that everyone has something that they could learn.
42:36
This is the harpsichord, and sometimes there's a volunteer.
42:39
Playing it thanks Samadi and her parting words about always
42:42
having something to learn because her attitude reflects A
42:44
voracious appetite for knowledge.
42:46
All three apprentices showed and whose enthusiasm for their
42:49
careers in project management really shine through.
42:52
Now let's go back to where we began this podcast with Rebecca
42:56
Corcoran standing on the terrace at Durham Park as she gives her
42:59
take on what it means to be an apprentice.
43:03
What was your actual involvement with the project?
43:05
So what? What were your particular
43:07
responsibilities? And yeah, so I came in at an
43:10
early stage when we were just starting to talk with the
43:13
landscape architect about translating this design idea
43:15
that we had into reality. And so I played a big role in
43:19
liaising with them and kind of getting the designs right and
43:23
the requirements of the house as well.
43:25
We're also going to add in a ramp on the either side so that
43:28
accessible visitors who come out will be able to come out and
43:32
experience the party for themselves.
43:34
I would walk around it. So beauty into those kind of
43:37
requirements and developing that brief was a big part of my role.
43:40
So actually, as an apprentice, you're given proper, responsible
43:44
duties here. It's, yeah, yeah.
43:45
And I think that's something I really enjoyed is that, you
43:48
know, I've been able to had a tangible impact and that I know
43:52
that obviously the Gardens team have done so much with sourcing
43:55
the plants and doing the actual work.
43:57
But I feel it's nice to feel connected and to have known that
44:00
some way I've played a part in. It yeah.
44:02
So every time you come back here, you can say that.
44:04
Exactly. Thought that was my work.
44:06
Yeah, because I remember even when we got the quote, or we
44:08
were, I was going out to people looking for the quotes to
44:10
actually do this deal. And the kind of relief when we
44:13
finally found someone who was able to do it and that you know
44:17
it, it was logistically gonna gonna work out.
44:19
And so, yeah, it feels really nice to have been part of that.
44:23
What did you learn first hand about project management from
44:26
working on this project? So I guess the big thing that I
44:29
learned was that things take time and as you'll see, it's not
44:33
totally finished here. We still have a bit to go and
44:36
there has been a few delays and things that were a bit out of
44:39
our control. And so I think with project
44:42
management sometimes there can be that desire to kind of
44:44
proceed at pace and do things quite quickly.
44:47
But in reality, you know, good things take time.
44:51
And I don't think, you know, I think the result will be better
44:55
at the end because we've taken that time and really had those
44:57
discussions with the house and and with the architect and
45:00
letting the metal fabricator have some more time to to, you
45:04
know, actually produce it and has been really beneficial.
45:07
And I think, yeah, just building that flexibility into your
45:10
projects and has been a huge session for me.
45:13
And yeah, it just would mean when it's finished, then it will
45:17
be, yeah, even greater and gotten even greater results.
45:20
It's wonderful what a wonderful project to work on is we're just
45:23
on the Gaspara Strade, yeah, overlooking the formal gardens
45:27
and these very much a work in progress still or is this
45:30
complete? So this yeah this area is as is
45:35
this the Sphinx court. I think they there has been
45:38
talks about adding a plinth or doing some sort of feature in
45:42
the middle but if you're if you go beyond beyond the hedging
45:46
there and that was all recently reestablished as part of the
45:51
transformation project. And so I think the design idea
45:54
for the garden scene was to create a 21st century garden
45:58
with flavours of 17th century and you have to to kind of
46:03
reestablish that the historic avenues and to do as those
46:07
people are doing right now like to go for a walk and kind of
46:11
immerse yourself in that nature and it's something that changes
46:14
quite seasonally as well. We get a lot of tulips here.
46:17
The the, the team plans. I think around now they're
46:20
planting tips for for next spring and like the garden kind
46:24
of transforms at different times of the year.
46:26
Do you come back regularly to work on projects here?
46:29
Is your? Is your work done here?
46:31
Yeah, I get I I come here for some meetings and to be on site
46:34
and honestly it is. It does seem a bit different
46:36
every time I come. Yeah, with as the seasons change
46:39
Really. Yeah, it's it's quite stunning
46:42
really. From reconstructing Palladium
46:48
gardens and ornate parterres to improving car parks and
46:52
introducing new project management systems, the
46:55
apprentices at the National Trust I met at Durham Park
46:57
impressed me with their enthusiasm, sense of purpose,
47:00
and appetite for their work. This episode I've learned how
47:03
Maddie, Rebecca and Flora are part of a cohort of early career
47:07
apprentices who are important people within the project
47:10
management team at the charity. They're being set up for a
47:13
successful career in something they've loved to learn about,
47:16
and I wish them all the best of luck and wherever their journeys
47:19
take them next. This episode completes our
47:22
three-part series that has taken us behind the scenes at APM
47:25
corporate partner the National Trust to understand how the
47:29
project management puzzle fits together at the charity and how
47:32
it's been supported by APM to create a professionalised team
47:35
of people whose work is at the heart of how the charity runs
47:38
itself. I've loved being given a
47:41
backstage pass at historic House during park and meeting a bunch
47:45
of people who are buzzing with enthusiasm for their work.
47:49
Thanks again to Rebecca, Flora and Maddie and everyone else
47:52
I've spoken to over the three episodes and to you for
47:55
listening. As ever, we want to hear your
47:58
comments, feedback and suggestions at
48:00
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.