Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Can money buy you happiness? Paul Bradley

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Can money buy you happiness? Paul Bradley · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry, so check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And today's guest on the Financial Planner Life podcast is Paul Bradley.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Paul is the founder of Chiltern Hills Financial Planning, and the focus of the conversation today is an interesting one.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Does money make you happy?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: According to Paul, it's not enough to be rich, it's having a purpose that gets us all out of bed in the morning.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Paul also dives into positive psychology and the way that we should be setting goals.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Once a goal is achieved, then what?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about how the role of a financial planner has evolved into more of a lifestyle coach type role.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wealth and health are so intertwined.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, by providing sound financial advice and coming up with a long-term plan, financial planners like Paul reduce the stress and the anxiety in their clients.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we also touch on philanthropy and how supporting causes close to your heart can play a part in your overall happiness and health.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we delve into Paul's career progression and how he ended up running his own financial planning firm.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy it.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, thank you so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life Podcast.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very well.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Sam.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure to be here.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've always uh sort of gone a bit of back and forth, haven't we, on on LinkedIn, certain comments and sort of um seen each other on posts.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're quite active on LinkedIn, as am I.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um I reached out to you recently and I thought, you know what, you're somebody I'd like to bring onto the podcast.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're uh been working within the financial planning profession for some time.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: You are quite outspoken.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: You do comment on it and what's going on and what's best advice and how best to deliver financial planning.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're, you know, you're a great person to come on and inspire those listeners.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for joining me today.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a pleasure.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I always start at the beginning, really, Paul, um, because a lot of our listeners are just thinking about getting into the profession or are just really started their journey.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is a careers-based podcast, so I'm always keen and interested to hear about first off, you know, how how did you get into the profession?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So my entry was um it was straight after my degree, really.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I did a degree in marketing management at Lancaster University.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd spent a year at British Airways and I had um a fantastic line manager who I thought was brilliant.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think working in the marketing department, I just became interested in sales.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm like I like people, um, I'm very personable.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I um I went through like a sales training recruitment company that specialized in graduates called Pareto Law, and then um worked very briefly for a company that did teleform sales, so as a telemarketer for a short period of time, and then found a role at Friends Providence.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I was recruited there by a manager called Kath Fortio to be part of their their first um worksite marketing team.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that was back in two, well, it's February 2002 when I joined the industry.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: February 2002, but that was in a marketing role, was it?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was called it was called work site marketing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it was um around the time it was when the pension rules had changed.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that they went from being quite complicated to um these kind of simple, um, clear, monocharged, they were called stakeholder pensions.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the government belief was, you know, if we make pensions nice and simple and and and affordable in terms of cost, um, that people will just buy them.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, that didn't happen at all.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So my my role was helping people understand where their employer had put in place a pension where there was um a contribution matching or or similar, um, how the deal worked, and and to help encourage people to to join.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right, cool.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, was that around sort of A-day?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the uh there's a pension simplification, wasn't there?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's a period and it's the it was known as A-Day, wasn't it?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so this was this is five, this is four years before A-Day.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So A Day was April 2006.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: This was February 2002.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right, okay, so the dawn of stakeholder pensions.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh listen, okay.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you yeah, okay.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: You started out then in more of a marketing sort of based position, then by the sounds of it.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was your entry level.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And Friends Provident hadn't, you know, they had a uh a financial advisor for us, didn't they?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they had a financial advisor for us that were giving regulator advice.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was called First Direct, and then they had a team, it was it was called Category C sales, so it was doing group presentations and individual meetings, so it wasn't advice, it was information only.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, we tried to make the information and the delivery of the information compelling.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean it's similar to now, you know, if if your employer offers you a pension, even if it's nest, if you if you don't join that, then you know you you you miss out on money.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what happened with the regulation is that they they eventually went to compulsion, that's where we are now.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, employees are compul are compulsed or obliged to pay into um pensions and offer them to every employee and and opt them in.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: So at that stage it was more um voluntary, and and so my my role was explaining and helping people make make decisions.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess the thing that links back to now, which is super relevant, is um research from Vanguard that that shows um the what's called the paradox of choice.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so when people are invited to join a company pension, the more uh fund options, the more investment options you offer, the more people get stuck.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so on the face of it, it looks like you're offering them something good, more choice, more options.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's there's uh an unexpected consequence of that, which is less people join, you know, more people get stuck on on that choice.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like me.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Too much choice.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I it literally stifles my um ability to move forward.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: I like things nice and simple, laid out nice and simple in front of me.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um couple of options.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're not unique, you're not unique, Sam.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's interesting.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm I'm looking at getting a um an electric mini, a green mini, and they've done the same thing.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh last time we bought a Mini, that's the car I drive right now.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: When you're choosing your car, there were just there were just lots and lots of different options.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And when you look at the combinations, there must have been thousands of them.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas whereas you look now, there's three.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: They've they've completely changed it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and Apple are kind of the same.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's there's definitely this idea, I think Barry Schwartz came up with it, the paradox of choice.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: The more choice you give people, the more options.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: It can be just debilitating.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It can because because you want to get it right.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so you're working in the marketing role there.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was a non-sale, it was a non-in advice position, yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Simplifying the pension process and um, you know, offering it to people in a way that's nice and simple, but it was information only.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't any advice or anything along those lines.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So at that point then, you were how old were you at that time then?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of in like 19, 20.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that was your early, early entry into the into the profession.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what from there then, how did you progress into the role of financial advisor?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: How have you ended up becoming a financial advisor?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because right now you are a fully qualified business owner, financial planner, and we'll get into the details of that uh shortly.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, how did you make that transition from marketing into a client-facing financial advice position?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it wasn't a direct route at all.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the the next role was within Friends Provident, and it was um it was a role called broker consultant.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think you still have them, but it's it's definitely less than it was.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, it was, well, I saw it as a progression within Friends Provident, but it was a completely different role.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the first role was, I mean, it was it was really fulfilling.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're helping people make decisions that ultimately will make them much better off.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and you're you're right by the end consumer.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: The broker consultant role, like I never, it never made any sense to me because on on paper, you've got these um these 50 businesses that are independent financial advisors, you know.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: So by definition, their their their role, I thought, was to independently find the best products for clients, but then you had this this sales role, it definitely was a sales role, you know, it had targets and and bonuses paid like commissions and everything else.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: That role was was basically selling Friends Provident products through these independent financial advisors, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So just the definition of the role just never really made any sense to me because you know, I was just thinking, well, like these people should be independently figuring out, you know, if indep if friends provide are the best vis-a-vis everyone else.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just didn't understand how it worked.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then how it worked, like this is, I guess, the the kind of you know, if this is a story, this is the dark, this is like the dark paragraph, you know, this is where this is where you get disillusioned or almost lose the industry.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're you know, as a broker consultant, you know, I'd I'd done the exams, like I did FPC 123 in the first six months, I did G60, which was like an advanced pension qualification at the time, in the next three months.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: The people I were calling on, you know, some of them, the qualification they had at the time, it was pre-RDR, it was equivalent to a GCC in the in the QCA framework, QCA level three.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and the people that you were calling on, they were, I mean, I didn't understand the pressures on their time, but I saw what I saw as arrogance, you know.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So they they might, you know, when you get a meeting, they might stick a watch in front of you and uh ask you to do some tricks.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So this was the IFAs though, yeah?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: The IFAs.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this IFAs.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you were broker consultant, friends probably don't.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: You were speaking to IFAs about the products and things that you were selling that that would be great for their clients.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what I thought it was, but it was it was it was kind of more about the commission and you know what you can do for them.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just a bit of an eye-opener and a bit disillusioning as well, to be honest.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the listener who doesn't really understand, pre-RDR, you know, you didn't have to be level four diploma qualified.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're saying that some of these guys that you were sitting in front of, financial advisors, yeah, IFAs, the qualifications they held were the equivalent of a GCSE.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yet they were sitting down with clients pre-RDR.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, some of them may well have known their stuff.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't hold any qualifications, but they could well have known their stuff.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: But do you think pre-RDR that they were 100% driven by commission, that it was very much around how much money they could make out of that client of theirs as opposed to what the advice really looked like in the future um for that client, client security?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's I mean, it's it's shades of grey, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that this there's things that the industry does that are just inherently good.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And some of those are sales, you know, so protection, encouraging people to save.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the the conversation that you have with a uh as a as a broker consultant with the financial advisors, it it just it it some of the conversations just exposes just the uh like inherent selfishness of it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if if the conversation is all about commit, you know, commission levels, how you stack up what the commissions are on different products, that's that and and and how you can help take away some of the pain within their business, that's a different conversation than about the end consumer.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it was so the I guess there was just um there's definitely there were there were good and less good, you know, there were more of them then.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think my my general sense was, you know, so there were 60, 60 businesses I called upon.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, would I take advice from them, maybe maybe one or two of them of the 60?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so that so that the so the general impression was quite bad.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the work, you know, I think that the they use the word churn, you know, which is like you move product from product A to product B, all you do is change the colour of the tin, you know, it doesn't add any value.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's but that's how that's how commissions get paid, you know, that's how intermediaries make money.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's so there's so there was a little bit of kind of misfiring in terms of the the the value.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why, you know, that that I guess that's why you know that that period was just generally a little bit dark.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I did meet some great financial planners and and I met some that were connected with the Institute of Financial Planning, you know, so that's that's where you're kind of moving away from the products and the commissions to a to a kind of higher level value proposition.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So pre pre you know, pre-RDR, you still you mentioned that you still held your FPC 1, 2, and 3 in the G60 qualification as well, the pensions qualification.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, but so I joined the I joined the industry in 2002 working for Friends Provident and got what you would need to be a qualified financial advisor within within six months.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: The G60 that was a tougher exam.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think the you know the pass rate was 33%, it was equivalent to an AF, and it was for it was for DB transfers.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I got that exam because I was working in pensions, you know, I wanted to know what I was talking about.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would have certainly known more about pensions than most of the brokers I was I was bumping into, but that's just not even the conversation that you were having.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the conversation that you were having was just generally around commission rates or how you can help them and their business.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't, I guess, I mean, certainly compared with the kind of what you see as good practice today and and the more progressive conversations that are trying to you know really understand people's values and and provide much more clarity, it's just a much better value proposition.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you were on that side of the fence, though, weren't you?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: You were on the broker consultant side and then you had the financial advisor side.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So where in your career then, at what point did you then think, well, do you know what?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do the broker side anymore.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a broker consultant, I don't want to be selling to IFAs, financial advisors.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want to actually be sitting down with clients and actually giving them financial advice.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when when did that happen?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it wasn't like it didn't quite happen like that.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so the I don't think I don't I mean the broker consultant job, it was my first, like my second job, you know, it was three years into my career.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely got that.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: There were parts of it that were unfulfilling, and and the people I were talking to weren't trying to progress the profession.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: But but my my next step was was monetary, you know.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the way I saw it is you know, in this broker consultant world, there were almost two tiers.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: There were the insurance companies, you know, your standard life, your your Friends Providence, your Scottish widows, um, but and then you had your investment companies, you know, your investment companies, so you could do a similar job, but you're working for like the Investdeec or the Fidelity.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I I saw that as kind of a more prestigious, um, more attractive route.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I was trying to get my investment qualifications and kind of push in that direction.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then um I just found this American company called SEI and they offered a high like it was a hybrid role.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So part of it was um doing what I was aiming towards, which is you know the the broker consultant type role, but you were working for the investment company, so talking about the investments, but then part of the role was also um they had this think tank business called Life Wealth.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So they they set it up just for ultra-high net worth clients, so for 10 million and above, but it was uh just a completely new model to to the UK, and it was it was um goals-based investing, a completely new way of describing the advice.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that's what I joined.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I joined SEI in in London in the Economist building to do a hybrid role, but part of that was, I suppose, equivalent to a power planner, but but it was more translating US advice to fit the UK regulatory framework.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So at that point, did you have any idea in your head that you were looking to go down the financial planning route?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Did you always have long-term ambitions that that's the path you wanted to take?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or was it were you sort of thinking this is the route for me?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be on this side of the fence as opposed to advice?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when I like when I was in, when I was in SEI, like I would describe the first team I was in as like among the most brilliant team I've ever worked in, like it was stretching, but I felt like I was really growing and it was exciting.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then the closer you got to the work and the direction of the work, um, like I yeah, I definitely knew that's what I wanted to do.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and they were pushing it in more and more exciting directions.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they were they were working so that so that their head office in America is based just outside Philadelphia.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they've got strong links with some of the Ivy League schools there.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And Martin Seligman, who's this professor of applied behavioral applied positive psychology, happiness research, like he's he's like right next to SEI, and they were they were blending all this into the advice that they offer to individual individuals and families.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I I guess it gave me a taste of the potential that the role can deliver.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah, like I was uh, you know, I found it exciting, I found it challenging, you know, in it from an intellectual perspective, really interesting.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I was kind of honed in on like that's what I want to do from then, really.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's probably 15 years ago.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So is the more the the more positive psychology side of it got you interested and how that links in with what goal setting?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: What what was it that I yeah, I guess well here's here's how let me explain that a little better.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I think I think the positive psychology is is just it's it's learning more about happiness and what really makes us happy and and what doesn't.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea behind it is that money's just a tool.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you make someone more money, like are you actually moving the needle for them or not?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so the positive psychology, I guess it's it blends into better goals.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um let me give you a couple of examples that that I can, I guess, like I've reflected on and and and I've thought actually, wow, that maybe that was wrong goal.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one is George Best.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a George Best documentary on the BBC, like quite recently, actually, it went right into all his life, and obviously his life is uh um like it's a tragic story.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you got an extremely prodigious talent that just goes awry.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you when you hear George talking and talking you through it, he came, you know, he came to Manchester at a very young age.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: The pinnacle of what he could have possibly achieved was was winning the European Cup.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's from Northern Ireland, he was never going to win the World Cup, you know.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the so the the the European Cup that was equivalent of him climbing the highest mountain in the world, that was his Everest.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he achieved that at age 22.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: But in the documentary tells you how he felt the day after.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think he might have felt the day after?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes the view for the view from the top is nice for a bit, isn't it?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then after that, it's just um you don't feel so good, do you?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: He was depressed.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: He was depressed the day after, and that that just made me think probably probably that's what Tyson Fury went through, you know, when he became the world champion, and then on the back of it just started, you know, drinking, taking cocaine, everything else.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's you know, for me, I thought about it, and that's I think it's how you define the goals, you know.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it comes down to the the the well-being research.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if the goal was win the European Cup, well he's done that.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: What what's next?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's always going to be smaller by comparison, similar similar to the boxing, you know, whereas whereas the got you know, the happiness research.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were talking earlier about you know how you might spend money on time, you know.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so there's a there's a there's a fantastic researcher from Vancouver called um Dr.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth Dunn.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: She might even be a professor, and her research is all about how um you can spend money more efficiently, you know, from a well-being perspective.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and time is one of the things actually she thinks you you can get good value for money from from a well-being perspective.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so more more money equals more time it equals more well-being.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess you know, get the goals wrong or frame them wrong.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if the goal is win this and then you hit it, well then there's emptiness that follows, and I think that emptiness was filled by alcohol for George, is is is my kind of guess, best guess.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that he was an alcoholic, I think.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think he suffered and mental health played a massive part in that as well.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think both of them.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's all mental health.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's all mental health, but I think that's but that's I guess the the the whole journey is mental health and and and using the applied positive psychology to help form better goals.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's all just it's just mental health.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the part you enjoy the most about being a financial advisor, then being able to sort of sit down with a client and really sort of understand what their goals are and are they genuinely happy?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you do you sit down with a lot of a lot of people with money, with wealth, and they are just quite disillusioned, they don't quite know where they're going, or they're just miserable or a bit fed up?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, does that happen?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, most people think, you know, on the outside looking in, if you've got money, then well, you're happy, simple as that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, what's the reality when you sit down with somebody who's got a fair bit of cash and are they happy?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do they know where they're going?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are they looking for advice constantly?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: What you know, what's it like?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, invariably, I mean, SEI came out with this idea.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen Alan Smith also kind of coined the expression.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they they came, they they had this idea that that regardless of your level of wealth, you've got sources of anxiety.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the source of wealth can link to that really strongly.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a big difference between inheritance.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And self-made wealth.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: But with wealth comes opportunity, but also responsibility.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, there can be some dangers, you know, particularly around inheritance, you know, how that wealth might impact your children.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always just a positive.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I heard a stat, someone asked me to find the source of this, and I've been struggling to find it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm kind of sharing it somewhat reticently, but I mean it just rings true.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: The stat I heard that was that um for younger generation for children, if they inherit five million or more, they're 10 times more likely to develop problems in in what are called DAGs, drugs, alcohol, gambling, and different addictions.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: So and that that kind of I've not been able to put my finger on that piece of research, but it it sounds about right.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so so I think I think viewing money as just a tool, I think is is a kind of helpful start point.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the idea that more is better, I mean, it's that's just patently false.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's lots of people where I mean the the the book, Morgan Housel's book, The Psychology of Money, there's lots of great warnings in there around um greed and how that can lead to uh your downfall.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think probably the best example that most people have heard of is the the Bernie Madoff one.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't think what I fully appreciated was how legitimately successful he was before he became a crook.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so he definitely had money.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: He just he just wanted more.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think he was comparing with those who had more than him and wanted more.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think with with money, yeah, there's all kinds of anxiety.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the number one, the number one question that most people have with the financial planning, I think the first and foremost thing that we help people with is is do I have enough?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so that's where you get into the value proposition, including peace of mind and and permission to do things.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a certain level where people have they know they've got more than enough.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there's still, I mean, there's there's I guess there's a there's a responsibility to it.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you the are you going to be the person that that makes mistakes?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: That that messes and there's lots of you know lots of stories, you know, hero to zero.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's also I guess that the I guess people who've got more than enough, the conversation I've had around that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love your campaign actually, the kind of um um how are you one to ten?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, ten, yeah.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like forcing people to take a position.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I love that as an idea, but like I've I've had conversations with people who are who are are um certainly got more than enough.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think for themselves, the anxiety like let's let's call it anxiety, the the kind of questions, it's all around purpose and meaningful activity.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you've got enough money, and and and therefore, you know what, what what do you do with yourself?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a great I actually stuck I stuck this on LinkedIn recently.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's um for business owners who've solved the business, like there's a there's a kind of exercise where you introduce yourself as a party, it just it just flushes out how much of your identity is linked with your work.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that's a kind of challenge for people who've got more than enough.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is what is it that what is it that you live for?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is it that you still get up for?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because you you know, I guess for for a hundred years, we're not we're not our our daily existence is not the challenge of survival.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've we've kind of we've economically moved past that, and and with that there's an opportunity which is to thrive, you know, which is finding your purpose and and and becoming as good as you can at that, but with increasing wealth, we just have more choice.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as we said earlier in the conversation, more choice you can just get stuck, and then and then the battle's in your own head.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were talking about the positive psychology.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think beyond survival, you're not facing decisions where you've got your mortality at stake.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the whole the whole battle is is in our own heads, it's all about mental health.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: How we perceive how we perceive ourselves in the world and what we think others think of us, isn't it, a lot of the time?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um, are we good enough?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are we, you know, do uh some people have millions and millions of pounds but still don't feel good enough, you know.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Internally, they feel less than, they have very low self-worth.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine, like when you said about that five million quid thing, you know, there's plenty of very wealthy musicians and film stars, etc., who end up having children and those children inherit the money.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you read constantly about how they turn to drugs and alcohol and they're not massively fulfilled, they're kind of living in the shadow of their parents.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: They've got these massive trust funds and they're just not fulfilled.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was um, who was it, Bill Gates, wasn't it, who said he was never going to leave his money to his kids.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was he wants his children to have purpose, to go out and to work and have purpose.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is something in that, absolutely, that you know, if you have purpose and it's not given to you on a golden platter, that you've got a reason to get up in the morning, you know, survival, isn't it?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got this reason to go out and survive and get out there and do it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: But there is this point, it's like, okay, though, but when isn't when we have that, you know, fight or flight mechanism within us, when is it, when is enough enough?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: When is it like give yourself a break?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you might have enough money.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or um, I guess what you guys do as financial planners is to get somebody DD to see either they have enough money or to build a plan to get enough money to um take away some of that anxiety uh to free up their time to do the things that they actually want to do.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I as I could probably imagine, going through it myself, sometimes it's like, well, I don't know what I want to do.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So do you know?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that that's what I'm saying?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's kind of what we're seeing now with financial planning.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just, you know, I'm gonna make you loads of money, you know, I'm gonna sit down with you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's very much being intertwined now with this kind of life coaching and well-being and goal setting.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the things that we're starting to see now.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, do you feel that way?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that that's the thing that's happening and that's how the role's now being defined as this kind of wealth is health, health is wealth, intertwined too?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a well-being proposition, as just opposed to a, you know, I'm gonna make you a make you a load of cash.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think 100% that's the way it's going.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd I'd go even stronger on it.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so um there's a couple of companies that do research.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the best research I've found that try and articulate the value of advice.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a numis one and there's a vanguard one.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the vanguard one express the value of advice like as as a in percentage terms, you know.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you if you see an advisor and they do these things, how how much faster does your portfolio grow?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and the the biggest things that make the biggest difference are behavioral, behavioral coaching, one 1.5%.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's what that's what Vanguard put on that part, that element of the service.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not technical, it's behavioral coaching.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: But but where it what it comes down to, and I'm so glad you said it actually, Sam, because I I completely agree with you.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: What it comes down to behavioral coaching is is you've got to completely reinvent that first meeting when you try and find out what's important to someone.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and um, like I've read books, even like highly rated books, and they're trying to point you towards good questions.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the good questions is like, what are your goals?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a terrible question.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I couldn't answer that question.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like not with anything like meaningful that that we're gonna be able to work from.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's I think this is why I mean we were saying up front, like the kind of um advantage of coming into the industry today is you've got through technology, you can learn from the best people throughout the world, and not only that, the best learnings are being created.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can just see the lists, you can you can use your 10 hours of personal development now extremely more efficiently than you could in the past.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I was signposting towards this guy called Brendan Fraser in the US who runs a podcast called The Human Side of Money, and it's just it's just packed with great content.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the the um the conclusions that are coming out of the US really strongly are um the first one is actually before you even talk about goals, you need to understand, and there's different words for this, like let's call it purpose or values or or core values, like you need to have that as a start point.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and the goals, there's a US um advisor called Natalie Taylor, and I love the way she describes it, and I think she's right on.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: She says the goals you have you have to hold with an open hand because your circumstances change.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I I use a I use a tool that was developed from SEI actually on goals, and it and it comes from that idea that if you ask someone what are their goals, like that's just a terrifying conversation.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: No one can put that on a piece of paper.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, what they do is they they had a game board that's got four boxes, you know.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, what have you got to do right now?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: What have you got to do in the future?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to do right now?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to do in the future?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then they got prompts for all the different areas in your life, you know.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So what like what about you and your other half?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do you like do you need to spend more time together?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Do you need to, you know, do do you share enough about personal finances?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's a guy in the States called Ed Coombs who does amazing work um linking your attachment style from birth.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's using therapy in this.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's your attachment style and how does that relate to your your relationship with money?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that work in into the relationship between you and your other half?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you got things for yourselves, you got things for your children, you know, what's what what does success look like for your children?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than being a rather than being a got goal, you know, which is lower level, you know, pay for a private school, they're going to go to school X for five years, like the the the value might be help my children achieve their potential.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just that's like a more open-handed set of goals because they can shift.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then you might also have things broader, you know.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So what what impact do you want to have on your community?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: What impact do you want, you know, are there causes that you particularly care about?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first conversation.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then what you're trying to get to from that is is a is a some really good strong success statements, and then you're into the cash flow planning.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one thing, you know, if if I was a young person coming into the profession, one thing that's unbelievable to me is how cash flow planning isn't just everywhere for every client, it still feels like there's there's room for it to grow.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and for any client who's never experienced cash flow planning, that's that's just a step up in in terms of value because without it, you just you're you're lacking a long-term view, you know.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the long-term view and clarity that gives you the kind of sense of balance.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are you borrowing from your future self or or or are you are you spending so little that that your future self will never have a chance to spend it?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, can you do us a favor?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because some of the people that listen to this podcast might not have ever come across cash flow forecasting, cash flow modelling.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are you able to sort of just give us an explanation of what it is and how you use it in your day-to-day job and why it's important?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I I describe it as um, I mean, I've been using it in in the financial planning that I've been doing since Bluefin, you know, so that's that's like because I was gonna say it's quite new, but that's you know, that's like 14, 15 years, you know, so it's it's not a new thing.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: But what it is, is um it's using technology to um map across a timeline that typically starts from a client's age and runs into the future, often to age 100, and it maps out their financial resources um and also future financial resources, you know, so incomes, inheritances, uh plans with properties, state pensions.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it maps everything out into the future, and then it just shows pictorially how how the future looks.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: So in its in its simple term, um you're just looking for red as a danger sign, and then you can see when that red is, and then you can just change the parameters.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what if you work more, what if you spend less, what if you invest a little?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like how how can we help you make better decisions so it all maps out?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for me, the the big the big thing about cash flow planning, because it's you know it's a four-year forecast.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, of course it's not accurate to the dot, but it just gives you the big picture perspective, which just helps you see how balanced you are in terms of um are you borrowing from the future or are you, you know, are you giving up opportunity to help others or spend more and still not run out?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so the reason why that's not sort of out there, because it's the sort of thing that anybody could really benefit from, regardless of how wealthy you are.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, from my time of with working with financial planners over the last 15 years, you do tend to find cash flow forecasting was something that was really wealth planning.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was for more wealthy individuals.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a shame it's not something that you can just log into as an app, isn't it?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not rocket science.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you can a lot of it you can take.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you could be putting it in yourself, couldn't you?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as a sort of consumer, you could be putting it in there and mapping out your future.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I can imagine it would just open up so many questions and so many kind of like, wow, I didn't really think of that, I didn't think of this.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you link that to things like um big data, where you're kind of establishing stuff like health coming into that cash flow forecast.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So if you mixed it with biotech, I know this is getting a bit deep now, but things like understanding what health implications could happen to a man between the age of 70 and 80, and you're thinking about doing your retirement during that period, all of a sudden you can start to bring all that concept into it as well.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because you might think to yourself, well, you might get to 80 years old, but based on what you're currently looking like in respect of the the, I don't know, your blood pressure readings, your scales, your HRV readings, etc., it are you even going to get there anyway?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I see there being a link between like biotech and money and planning for your future.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the two kind of need to go hand in hand because there's plenty of very wealthy people that earn lots of money but run themselves into the ground.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: You hear about so many people they hit retirement and bloody die with a heart attack, really early heart heart attacks, but they've worked their socks off up until that point.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's a question that comes in on that sort of forecasting side that I'd love to see that in the future, that combination between that and some biotech.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think that I think the biotech could feed into it really nicely because I mean, what are you what are you dealing with in the planning?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, for the most part, you you're trying to just show a general, like what's a general picture.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: But but when you're talking to a client, it's a sample of one.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if they're so their their unique health record might indicate it might lean you towards different decisions.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess a classic one.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're DB licensed, which means you know, we can help people um move finance salary pensions or define benefit pensions.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And on its face, that looks like a massive alarm bell.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why would anyone do that?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're giving up a guaranteed income in ex in exchange for taking the risk doing it themselves.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we're DB licensed, but we're extremely selective in the cases that we take on.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So why why would you do it?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's only two reasons, really.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the so the first one is if you've got much more than enough, so therefore the guaranteed income is irrelevant and and the the legacy position and flexibility is more relevant.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: The other one is is is exactly what you were talking about.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it'd be health-related, you know.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you knew for sure, so so for so for example, um, one of the ones I did was a family one, it was for my uncle, you know, but he he had um cancer in his in his early teens, it it recurred in in kind of you know in his in his mid-adult life.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's certainly got a shortened life expectancy, which means, you know, all of a sudden the the the cash value as a as a legacy proposition just looks somewhat a lot more interesting.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there's other clients I'm working with where actually, you know, if you had that kind of you know, much much smarter health data, let's call it, you could help him make better informed decisions on against one of those um parameters.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I think as I think you know the technology is getting better, the cash flow planning.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's I I think it's miles away from where it should be now.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not moved.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've been using the same software in tech for 10 years.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Which one do you use?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Which one do you use then?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: I use Voyant, but I'm a massive user of at-home licenses.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: So so my so my clients do get the the the version that they can use themselves, that they can play around with themselves.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just because it's it's just um it's just a bit of clarity.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: But the clarity is important at inflection points in your life.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if you only see your financial advisor once a year and they're like, all right, see you next year, that's when you get to see an updated version of this.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not necessarily helpful because all the change could happen in your life in between.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And when you need to, when you need to get clarity from that plan, it's it's big life decisions.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I I got offered a new job, it's less money, but I think I'd love it more.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that impact?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's when you want to recast the plan.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or or or scary markets, you know, right now is a good time to be recasting the plan.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, markets have fallen.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: How does it look?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are you still on track?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what if what if it continues to deteriorate before it gets better?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Are you still on track?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you can give people peace of mind from doing that.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I think not having it, you know, so I come so yeah, I completely agree.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it should be just everyone should have it.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think everyone should just have it from school, you know.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you get when you graduate university.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're away now, you've got your you've got your life plan, it maps out, and then you can do with it what you want.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can get professional help at any stage in time, but you've got that kind of base level long-term view, financial plan.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it triggers the thing is if you if if someone was to put that in front of me and I was to look at it, and it's really simplified in the sense that you know it's like a step-by-step, right?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now you put this in, now you put that in, and you're like, oh, each stage you're putting something in.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end, you've got a plan.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality of it is the plan that I've put into place off the back of my bag box isn't going to be a fantastic plan.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: So at each point, there's an opportunity for me to go, well, I need to know that.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: How would I get that?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, you know, how do I set up a pension or how do I put money away into it?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: So all of a sudden, you're you're kind of naturally as a consumer asking the questions as you go along.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to the end, the ability to then get advice becomes far more um apparent.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're like, yes, I need that advice.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you tend to, you're then going to reach out to an advisor, probably more so than you would if you hadn't had a go at trying to do it yourself, if that makes sense.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: You'd be you'd be gaining financial literacy and engagement along the way.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then you you you're kind of you're coming at it from a position of being more empowered.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, it's it's a much better way of doing it.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Simplified, isn't it?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because at the moment everyone's sort of going onto YouTube or Instagram and they're sort of, yeah, there's a lot of information out there that's really helpful and useful, but it's just so all over the place.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So many different personalities, so many different views, and it's completely unregulated in the sense that you don't quite know what that person's saying is right or wrong because they're trying to obviously sell advertising space on their YouTube channel to make some money out of their um their adverts.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very tricky.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you had something simple that came from a financial planning company such as St.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place, that was just out there, that was really designed to be kind of educational, you know, it brings you into the world of financial um planning and um not so much just um thinking you're gonna get rich quick.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it so that I think that was the key thing.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's how it should be.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the conversation is is how it is about get rich quick, and that's more appealing, but it's it's obviously it's where all the danger signs are.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny, I've got a friend who is very senior in media, and he was pointing to a new course that's being offered by like the Wolf of Wall Street.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is not even a joke.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is not even a joke.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: The Wolf of Wall Street is offering a course to help you like crack crypto and make a fortune.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's like I'm I'm not gonna get the number right, but it's definitely more than 10,000 to go on this course.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like so.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I was I was just trying to get my head around it, you know.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a guy who's he's famous for being a borderline crook.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like he went to prison, he was knowingly selling stocks that were no good to enrich himself.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it it beggars belief that people would pay for that course, but I mean he's got when now we're getting into human decision making.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's another like fascinating area, you know, and that's an area where you know financial planning is extremely rich.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't make decisions based on logic.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's some fascinating research that shows if you if if you're told something with frequent with frequency, we can't distinguish that from the truth.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean there's like a social experiment going on at the moment in Russia and and and before that in America.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how how can propaganda still be effective in 2022?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it it can, you know, we we're seeing it.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, 100%.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, okay, cool, brilliant.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, listen, you are now running your own financial planning firm and you ran your own financial planning, you've been running as a self-employed, running your own financial advice business for you know for for nearly 10 years.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's sort of fashion, let's let's sort of fast forward really to that.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've been running your business for over 10 years as a financial advisor, you know, um, and sounds like you're doing really well for yourself.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you haven't decided, and this is uh you haven't decided to grow and build a massive business, either of you.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: You haven't, you know, you haven't decided, right, I'm going to employ 20 people um and I'm gonna build a business like that.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because prior to this conversation, I mean, you told me you were your your assets under management are 120 million right now.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it?
• 44:00
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: And in your and in your business, sitting in your business right now is you as a financial advisor.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of support staff.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: And an associate who's now what you class as like a trainee advisor.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean he's fully qualified.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's more qualified than most.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's uh so we we joked training about how QCA level three was like GCSE level.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: So then RDR meant everyone had to be level four, which is A level.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then chartered, which is the gold standard, that's level, that's level six.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's undergraduate degree level.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: So he's level seven.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's got a master's degree in wealth management.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so he's so he's he's inexperienced, but he's but he's you know his his technical uh his technical abilities are extremely high.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you you know you you mentioned what what are you doing in new business on a yearly yearly basis then?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so new new business you bring in.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: How much do you sort of bring in as well?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well that so last so last year 2021, um that was that was 350.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so decent, very decent, decent levels of business for a financial, you know, for a financial advisor with an associate and a couple of support guys.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's good, you know, that's great levels of business.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't come across individuals that are writing that level of business all the time.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's good, solid, above average levels of business.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: So first off, why did you decide to get on the self-employed group?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: How did that happen?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Running your own business, where did that come from?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we follow the path, there's one there's one link that's missed.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so so Friends Provident was initially fulfilling, then you know, when I was seeing the the kind of commission hungry IFAs um competing against the broker consultants, less so joined SEI, amazing, like really amazing.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: But then the turning point in SEI was was 2008-9.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that so that so when Lehman crashed.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the business that SEI had that went direct to the end consumer, that was not core business, and in fact, it caused a lot of channel conflict.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, who are SEI's biggest customers?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they're they're the private banks.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: In Europe, the biggest customer is HSBC private bank, and they look after institutions.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the private banks they didn't want SEI looking after clients with 10 million plus directly.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted to look after them themselves.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So when Lehman happened, uh SEI closed down the UK um life wealth business, and I ended up doing that broker consultant type job for SEI.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the client that I looked after was HSBC Private Bank, but then it became all about the investment pitch.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it was all about the the delivery to the client was this perfect deck of slides to describe the perfect way of investing, which of course is a nonsense.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even even helping them have the right investment in the first place isn't it, you know, it's all about the behaviouring coach, the behavior coaching along the way, which you can't do if you've not got an idea of the goals and the values and done the planning piece.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that so it was becoming unfulfilling again.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when I discovered a guy called Arun Abe.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I literally just found an article that he'd written.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this was maybe um 12 or 13 years ago, and the article that he'd written was called Happiness Makes Money.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I read it, you know, it sounds really light, but it was weighty, you know, it was it was well researched, it was very compellingly argued, and and then on the back of that I read his book.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: In his book was called How Much Is Enough, and it was building on, it was really building on this kind of plan-oriented but well-being-centric, you know, he got right into the relationship between happiness and money, and and and from that, that's when he started talking about philanthropy.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, philanthropy as a as a focused way of using money to build happiness.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: So completely inspired by Irunabe and his business partner who set up so he he set up a business in them in Australia called IPAC Securities.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: They sold it to Axa for$600 million, so extremely successful.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and his business partner was a guy called Suvan De Soisa.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: So AXA brought him, Souvan, over to the UK to to lead um an advice business called Bluefin.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it was going to be like this new, new way of doing things.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I was employee number one of this new model under Suvan.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: I got to meet Arunabe, I got to do some video interviews with him, which I post on LinkedIn.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but that that lasted just six months.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: They got rid of actually got rid of Suvane.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Erun's now gone, and it became like, what did you sell today?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it became more traditional, and that was right on the cusp of the RDR.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we had we actually had we were employed advisors.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: We went into a meeting in um in in the offices which were near Aldgate, and the new bonus structure was revealed, which was just worse.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then um a friend and I just went for beers, and on about beer number four, we decided, all right, we need to just do this ourselves.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when we try to figure out who who we should partner with for investment management, administration, and everything else.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was at that point you chose to go down the route of St.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: St.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: James Place, self-employed, yeah.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: And did you do sort of like you know, a lot of people who will will hit that point, you know, they'll sit down, I speak to them numerous times, and I sat down with groups tends to be like with somebody else within the profession, and they're egging each other on to go self-employed.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Did you do a bit of a beauty parade?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Did you go out into the market and speak to lots of different companies?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why did you end up deciding on St.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: James's place?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: What was your what was your route to getting there?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what would you advise someone to do at that point?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we so we we spoke with a few.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: We spoke with a few and we I mean we stayed in touch with a few as well.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the ones we the ones we've spoken with were um St.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: James Place, Raymond James, Best Practice and True Potential are ones that we've we kind of continue to speak with.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so why St.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: James Place?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think why St.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: James Place, but like it took a long time to get there, and it's all about perceptions.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so St.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: James Place now, you know, if you you're you work within the profession, you read money marketing or citywire, it's probably the most polarizing organization in financial services.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like when St.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: James Place announced results, like there's lots of comments, many of them are uh are extremely negative, you know.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: So so I was kind of initially put off St.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: James Place by reputation.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I thought that it was going to be um more sales-oriented, you know, more what I was trying to avoid from the past.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you recognize what St.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: James Place are, you know, which is the same as everyone else, like they're kind of a commoditized service provider.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so what does what does St.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: James Place bring to the table?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's investment research and administration principally, like they're the things where if you look at the whole proposition, they're the things where the cost has just shrunk over time.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's more easy to replace.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: But what St.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: James Place also brings to the table is the wealth of expertise in skill in in helping helping you build your business.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so so suddenly as an emp as a self-employed advisor, you're not just a practitioner, but you're also the person who has to figure out like how to build that business, which is which is now um, which is now a sales and marketing responsibility.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you've got to you've got to find the right people in the first place and and engage with them properly and then take them on as clients before you can develop your and deliver your your value proposition.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So and then you you obviously settled on St.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: James's place.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: They were the ones that you felt were in a position to best support you as an advisor, okay.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did you so over that eight-year period then?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you were you were you and you and a colleague decided right, we're gonna join together and we're gonna join up our own practice.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how you got into St.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: James's place as a partner practice.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: What you know, in reality, what did the first couple of years look like?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, did you have a perception that you were gonna go, right?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, we're gonna go in there, we're gonna do loads of sales, we're gonna do loads of marketing, we're gonna get ourselves out there, clients will clients will come and see us.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: What was the reality versus um the you know, what was your perception versus reality when it came to running your own business?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: Was it easy?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Was it hard?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: Was it you know completely different to what you thought it'd be?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think in terms of difficulty, probably probably similar, but it I mean it was terrifying.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we we we went from, I mean, the security of an employed salary, you can't underestimate.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and they gave us uh like a marketing allowance, you know, with strings attached, so you know, so you knew you know you still would have food to put on the table.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a scenario in there, a very real scenario, which is you you fail, you've got no money, and you're now you're now carrying a debt.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that they put us on a one-week residential course, and we we both had really severe nightmares um like every single night on the course.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that the I mean the person I set up with is probably you know the reason why like I enjoy what I'm doing now so much.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I like I would say that I was scared at first.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was definitely scared.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was a person I was working with, the guy I'm talking about where we had the beers at Bluefin.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um we got on really well, we worked together really well because we're completely different, you know.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: So like I'm I'm the person who loves the profession, I love the practice, like I love learning about it and and and the impact obviously you can have on people.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I find that all hugely fulfilling, and I and I feel like I'm like right at the cutting edge of like best practice in the profession.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the person I joined with was just extremely charismatic, you know, he was like a a natural, natural-born salesperson, a networker.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I think I had a fear when we first joined that like I wouldn't be like, you know, that I'd fail, you know.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought, I thought we're doing it together, like we should be okay.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the first six months were horrendous, actually.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think we like we literally did no business in the first six months.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we had clients from being employed that liked us, but then you end up with these, you know, these ridiculous um I mean you can understand it from the company's perspective, but like I'm trying to figure it from the end consumer's perspective because you you can't touch to you can't talk to these people.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so imagine I'm helping you through a critical part of your life, and I and I was doing the same thing I learned at SEI, you know, so it was proper planning, goals-based.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden, like I decide because there's been a change at change at Bluefin, I'm gonna go and do something on my own.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know not only can I not tell you that, I can't, I can't talk to you for a year.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's so that there's there's a lot of things that aren't quite right, um, I felt in that.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we got through, you know, we got through the six months, and then I mean, frankly, at the beginning, um like we I mean, you know, it's it's a it's a podcast for whatever, you know, it's to the extent it can help people.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: We we would we were on a lot of anxiety, a lot of adrenaline, and because your diary wasn't full, you know, we might have a meeting on Tuesday and then nothing until Wednesday at 3 p.m.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: We'd end up just drinking on Tuesday.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the so the the the first year our drinking was bad, you know.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was like unhealthy, bad.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think off you know, off our first 12 months were still successful.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think St.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: James Place have got a grid, it's all based on your initial advice fees, and and I think in in the first year we we kind of did enough to qualify for you know they do what they used to, they used to do trips and whatnot as recognition.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the first year we actually did quite well, but the first six months were just terrifying.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's why it's nice with the setup that I've got with the advisor I'm working with now, Will, you know, so he's month five, but he doesn't, you know, but but but he hasn't had that empty diary, you know, which is it's just too much time, too much time in your own head.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we were saying before, you know, we're we're a hundred years away from having to worry about where the next, you know, where survival.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: So so all the kind of the battle's all in your own head.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you've got too much time in your own head and you that anxiety can just cripple you.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you almost need less time, more focused activity, or focused act, meaningful activity purpose.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you got, but you just don't quite know what to do with it.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that first six months, then when you were pretty much just having a few beers every every two every Tuesday and stressing your nuts out about trying to find some clients.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: When you did was it just a matter of you got through the first year and and you were able to approach relationships that you've had previously with other companies without any restricted covenants in place?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or was there something that you did, was there something that you I, you know, is there something that you did or didn't do that you would do now in your first 12 months of starting a business from scratch again?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, you you know, even though you sit around, you might say that you did a lot of boozing and all that kind of stuff and you stressed out and everything, but you're now 10 years down the line, aren't you?
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you've you've learned a thing or two.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Was there something that you thought, bugger me, I wish I did that, because that would have been far more better use of my time in the first six to 12 months?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: That would have definitely got me some business on the board, or that would have definitely got me going.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you take people say, get out there, network, network, network, or get out on LinkedIn and put a little content out on LinkedIn, or I don't know, phone up all your friends and family.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what's a good strategy for somebody coming in with absolutely blank sheet of paper in the first 12 months of running their own financial advice practice?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, I mean, I'll I'll tell you one of the things that we did, yeah, which was the I guess closest to silver bullet, but then um it's not that repeatable.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll so I'll kind of tell you what I would do if I was going back now.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: So so what we did, um, and it was it it was one of the deciding factors on on why St.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: James Place, you know, so the timing was around that the RDR, we knew there was going to be a mass exodus.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that we agreed when we joined St.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: James Place was that we we wanted to partner with you know with an advisor who's looking to retire, you know, so we'd we'd have some clients to work with.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and frankly, that's one of the things that that you know that that kind of made made the model work, you know, because if all of a sudden you've got people to see, you know, that their circumstances are changing.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And also we were offering a kind of fresh and and more valuable service, you know, so it just that just took off.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: What would I do now if I was joining, or you know, so so if I you know if we wave the magic wand, everything disappeared.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was now starting 10 years ago, but knowing, knowing, knowing what I do, what I know now.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I think the first thing to do is um is try and figure out a niche.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the best way I've described heard a niche described is something that's uh an inch wide and a mile long.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I think I think that what many people do, and this is well included actually, you know.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we're having conversations about this, you know, the the first year you've got all this kind of like anxious energy and you want to be busy your whole time.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you you can do that, but you need to kind of channel that into ways that's productive so you're not beating yourself up over not seeing 10 people a week.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: But the the the the definition of what you also intend often do when you're starting out is just try and take on everything, you know.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: So anyone who will talk to you who might have a financial need who you that you can sell a financial product to, you'll work with them, you know.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you end up just just with this kind of hodgepodge of clients that you may or may not work with over the longer term.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that the set it's it's I mean it's extremely hard to do.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I know I could do it if I went back.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Could I do it if I was starting out again without I don't I don't know, like I don't know honestly.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: But but I what I do know is the more tightly you define that niche in terms of who you want to work with, and the more and and the better you do at understanding what their problems are and what what are some of the things that they're dealing with, then the then the more credible you'll be working with them and the more successful you'll be.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so where we are now, you know, so we've got the existing clients that we look after, and that's going great.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then where we're where we're finding that we're particularly valuable is there's um there's there's a business that we work with, it's quite a large business, and they've got a historic pension that's quite hard to understand and and hard to advise on.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: So there's so there's there's quite high barriers to entry, but we are experts in what they've in what they've got.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there's three pensions that they might have.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like we know those pensions inside and out, but then we're just applying our process, which is, and I think people are just shocked when they get when they get the first um meeting in our process.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I've described this to Will.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is what I think it's like.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is kind of me observing and and you kind of see how the clients react.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think by the time you decide that I'm gonna get financial advice, there's already loads of conversation that you've had in your own head.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a bit like in the beginning we were kind of making a parallel between health, and you know, you and your team are doing great work, you know, working out every Monday, it's fantastic.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: But imagine before that, you know, before like, you know, but like me now, you know, you you know you've you know you've neglected it for a while.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: So everything that that goes between then and you having your shorts and t-shirt on and being in a gym, like there's quite a lot that's happened.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you get in the gym, like an LB like this: you get in the gym, you meet the trainer, you want him to be like, all right, we're going straight on the fat on the on the high incline, and then we're gonna lift some really heavy weights.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do like a month's worth of work in one day because you're here.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: But what yeah, what actually happens is they sit you down, you're like, and you answer, they sit you down, they're like, All right, what do you want to achieve?
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are your goals?
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like I want to go, let me go, let me go.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's kind of the same with us, you know.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when we see people, they're like, All right, I've got some money, I'm ready, like I'm ready to invest.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and and especially when they're having a conversation about the values and the goals, like, hang on a minute, you know, what is this about?
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: But after like question three, like the penny drops, they're like, of course you need to know that.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're talking about my retirement, of course you need to know what my plans are for my kids because that that's that's like using the same resource.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: Of course you need to know about what I might do with my property, because that's the same resource as well.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you need to know what's going on with my parents because I might have to step in and help them if I'm one of, you know, if I'm one of two or just an only child.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have the full picture, and the full picture's the thing that's really hard to have without a guided conversation, you know, because there's just too many, there's too many moving parts, and people are good at articulating the problems.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're not they've not, for the for the most part, it's a unique conversation.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like they haven't had a conversation really that's focused on helping them try and understand the the values, and they definitely haven't had a conversation that's aimed at trying to get them on one piece of paper what all the moving parts are.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if you just say what are they, like there's a there's a great Henry Ford quote where he says, if I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have just said faster horses.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: It applies to financial advice.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: I say it about I say it about St.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: James Place all the time, frankly.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, St.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: James Place, you see the good and the bad, you know, but the the the the surveys are always like very good.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I was saying the clients the client they don't have multiple financial advisors, they've got one.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they've only got one experience, like they don't really know what's good or bad.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking earlier, I think one of my frustrations is is around that.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I think I'm pretty clear, you know, from the Vanguard research and others, that the values in the behavioral coaching, like it's it's definitely not from your financial advisor in the phone picking, but that's a lot of what goes on, you know.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: So with Will then, Will's working as like an associate, so he's essentially like a trainee financial advisor, he's qualified, he's he's giving advice to clients.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's but he's so he's got his he's he's got his competent advisor status, he's signed off and sits down with clients on his own, yeah.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: So he's on that, like he's on the regulatory path, but the but the quality of his work and his process.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're we're working together in every single meeting.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what background was he from then?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: So he did uh he did an economics degree where he got a first class um result.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then for the last five years he's worked for St.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: James Place, the corporate.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he's worked in their investment teams, in their field-based teams, in their technology teams.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like he he he was, I mean, frankly, like he was tipped to eventually be like the next CEO.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was very well thought of in that group of people that they recruit with an eye on like the future leaders.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it was corporate, completely corporate.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the conversation that we had actually were all around his why, you know.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: So when you when you're in the corporate, there's some financial advisors who earn um just extremely high amounts of money, you know, and and my why, you know, so the the the business has grown well, it's reached a good size, it's it has value.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: But my why is um it is around impact.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I find the job extremely fulfilling, you know, in a way that money isn't.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were talking about that earlier.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: So and you and you if if I fast forward where my business might go, when you start thinking, you know, I've got 20 plus years, you reach a really big number.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I think my intent is to keep my numbers at the same size and then start thinking about some of the fulfilling things I could do with the value.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so if we double the business and double it again, then 20 years from now, we could probably do something quite meaningful around financial literacy education or or bringing some of the positive psychology into it.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so for example, my son goes to a school.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which is um which is a wealthy school, you know, it's a private school.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's some um there's some quite high profile parents there.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that we want to do to start giving, you know, giving with meaning is financial literacy education, but that's not needed there.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these are the kids that are going to inherit, you know, in in some cases millions.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: But what is needed is that is that kind of perspective that you get from people like um like Dr.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth Don or like Seligman.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the perspective is to help them use that money as a tool, as a tool to help them find their purpose and achieve their potential.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because they've got a tool that can do that.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if their purpose is, you know, whatever it is, they like the the money can find them the best training that money can buy.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's a it's a completely different way of seeing seeing the money.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: My my sort of situation where I am, I don't need to have like I don't need to have loads and loads of money.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because I'm adverse to money, like I'd like to have a decent level of income.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we all we all do because money buys us.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that money, like you, buys us time.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: It frees us up to do what we want to do.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: I also agree with what you were saying around um philanthropy and giving giving back.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because for me, it's about getting to a point where my business runs itself.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's a good plan in place that motivates everybody in here to grow it.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't have to be the one sitting there cracking the whip every two seconds.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I can step to the side and do something which I believe gives me purpose and keeps me motivated and keeps me happy, which is why I'm getting involved in charities and things now, you know, like why mental health is such an important subject matter for me.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, why I want to um like I've got a goal to partner with this talk club and set up talk club recovery, which is like a charity side that would be completely charity, complete charity to help people recover from alcohol and drugs without having to go down something like Alcoholics Anonymous or Cocaine Anonymous or anything like that.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: The idea is to create something which is accessible to everybody, but also speaks the language of now, not some kind of hidden cult, you know.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm very, very passionate about doing that.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: And now I know I don't need well, I know that I don't need millions of pounds to do that.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could do that tomorrow.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: If I put my energy and my effort into it, I could do it tomorrow.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um that could lead me into something far more fulfilling.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when you start looking at things like charities, if you then thought about the money side of it, right?
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, you want to be paid for the time that you are working, whether or not that's coming through your existing business paying you in a salary or dividends or whatever it is, but you can also earn quite a decent income by working for a charity as well.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really realize that, you know, that if I wanted to dedicate my time to that and my energy to it, then I could, and I could still earn some really good money.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm starting to learn a lot about my relationship with money and this idea that um I have to have a certain figure.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm I'll be happy when I have that amount of money, or I'll be I'll do it when I've got it.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you said something a second ago, like we're thinking like, you know, when we turn over this much and we double it and we double it again, then we'll then you said it, but I don't know if you believe it.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then you said like, but then we'll look at maybe financial literacy, educating financial literacy.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to do something sooner.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm sooner, yeah.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm putting a perspective on it.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you you you made an interesting point earlier around you know, uh giving everyone access to a cash flow plan.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we could we could do something like that.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in the short term, I can't um the person who's inspired me most in this area, it was it's Aaron Abbework, it's Mike Wilson.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: And both of them were philanthropists, but both of them would would freely say, you know, we do this for mainly selfish purposes, you know, mainly self to feel great about ourselves.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so so I but I think that's when you start doing work in this area, it has to that that has to be the perspective.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're doing it just if you're doing it for others, you're not gonna carry on doing it.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not gonna get legs, it's not gonna grow.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think our start point, we're trying to figure out.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in the past, I've I've done work to support the St.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: James Players Charitable Foundation.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: The cycle jersey on the wall was um like month on two cycle challenge.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's two vertical kilometers, and we raised like a few thousand pounds, which got doubled, and it helps the St.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: James Place Charitable Foundation.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's all well and good, but to make the most of it, like it, you know, again, just like you just like you're spending more efficiently or investing more efficiently, I think you can give more efficiently, and giving more efficiently means that you're closer to the impact, you're closer to seeing the difference that that you, Sam Oaks, have made.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about financial literacy at the moment.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was just trying to explain our early endeavours in it.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: The first one was the school that my son goes to, but I quickly realized they don't need financial literacy education, like they need something else.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's research that shows actually there's a big difference.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the privileged schools versus the um let's call them the less privileged schools.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: The less privileged schools, the that there's a big gap between financial literacy, so that the poorer schools are the ones that need it, and they're they're the ones where actually you know you're you're probably more authentic being in there in the first place, you know.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that they've got it's funny, they've got something at St.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: James Place around this.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're gonna if you're gonna talk to schools, like they they'll they warn you, you know, don't don't be branding everything, you know, because it's because I guess it's trying to fish out who's doing it for the right reasons.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're going into a school and sticking your logo everywhere, are you in there to try and promote financial literacy or you are you in there to try like pick up a few of the parents as clients?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you need to almost rebrand it, that that part of your business.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit like me with a financial plan.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or or or if you're going into the poorest schools, you know, if you're going into the poorest schools, like no one's gonna no one's gonna accuse you of trying to do going there for the wrong reasons to try and pick up clients, you know.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you you're going in there like for the right reasons.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_01: In the short term, we're probably gonna do something, um, you know, some some kind of health fundraising thing.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've got in the summer, um, we're gonna do some video work.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um, like we did some video work last summer, it worked great.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we're doing that again this summer, but the ones we're doing this time are like vulnerable client stories, you know.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what so it's the woman who's lost her husband, or the woman whose husband had a had a stroke, or you know, the or the person whose partner was was in a care home for for nine, ten years.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and how what impact does financial planning have on under those circumstances?
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so vulnerable client is a hot area of interest, but the way it's been implemented, it's all it's it's all just extra checks and balances.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I think what we need, what the what the profession needs is is the stories, you know, kind of like the kind of like the Joe Wicks, like like transformations.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: You want to see the transformations 100%.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I 100% agree on that.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I could talk to you all day about the sort of well-being side of financial planning and the importance of that.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is certainly uh another podcast in there somewhere, isn't there?
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but listen, I want to thank you today for sharing your journey on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really appreciate it.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, and let's and let's let's keep in contact.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a pleasure, Sam.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: No worries.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers, Paul.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: You take care