Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #60 A Snake, an Apple, and Two Naked People

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#60 A Snake, an Apple, and Two Naked People · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, Tim Wright here along with John Burgess, Terry Summers.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: We are continuing our series on the book of Genesis.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a quote from John Stewart.
• 0:29
  Reason has been a part of organized religion ever since two
• 0:32
  nudists took dietary
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: advice from a talking snake.
• 0:38
  It's a great quote and it's also the reason why we need to take
• 0:42
  these stories as
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: they were written.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: If we believe a talking snake was giving dietary advice to Adam and Eve,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to have some issues with this story.
• 0:52
  If we believe it's a story using metaphor and images to say
• 0:56
  something about God and
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: humanity,
• 0:59
  then we don't get so stuck on some of the harder stuff in this
• 1:03
  story that happens.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't make any kind of sense and isn't supposed to.
• 1:07
  That's not the point of these stories,
• 1:09
  as we've been seeing the last few weeks.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: These are stories about who God is and God's relationship with us.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: They are not historic accounts of what happened at the beginning of time.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So far,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: we have,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: in Genesis chapter 1 and Genesis chapter 2,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: looked at two different stories about God.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we have seen, using the metaphor of creation, that God is a good God.
• 1:31
  That God created out of goodness,
• 1:34
  that God is a loving God,
• 1:35
  a caring God,
• 1:36
  a providing God.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the high point of God's creation is humankind.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he created us in God's image to reflect who God is to the world,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: to steward the world with love and compassion the way that God does.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in chapter 2,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: we saw how God is this parent who lovingly created human beings,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: provided a garden for them,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: food for them,
• 1:59
  where the other gods of the other cultures wanted human beings
• 2:02
  to provide food for
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: them.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: This God made sure that human beings would not be alone and isolated,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: but provided relationships for them.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have all of this really good,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful stuff happening,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: but then you look at the world today and say,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: what in the world happened?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And to explain sin,
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: to explain evil,
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: to explain suffering,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: and try to give some sort of a logical,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: rational explanation for it is hard.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we do it because we need to.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: But what the ancient Hebrews did was they told stories instead.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily to explain it, but to give a picture of it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we have in Genesis chapter 3.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: We have a story using images,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: a garden,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: we've got fruit,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: we've got a snake representing,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: that voice that draws us from God.
• 3:00
  And we're going to break this down into two parts because
• 3:03
  there's so much in this chapter.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're going to set up the
• 3:06
  that the sin,
• 3:08
  so to speak,
• 3:09
  although the Bible doesn't use that word in this chapter.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then next week, we'll look at the consequences of what they did.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we're in Genesis 3.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: We've got Adam and Eve.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: God has created them.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's put them in this lush garden.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is available to them.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Everything they could possibly want is available to them.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: They live in complete authenticity in front of God.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing to hide.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: God is open and friendly with them.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: They are friendly with God.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're naked and not ashamed, to use the language of the Scriptures.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then something goes terribly wrong.
• 3:46
  And so,
• 3:47
  Terry,
• 3:47
  would you please read for us Genesis chapter three,
• 3:49
  verses one through eight?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord had made.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: One day he asked the woman,
• 4:03
  did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the
• 4:08
  trees in the garden?
• 4:11
  Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
• 4:14
  the woman replied.
• 4:15
  It's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden
• 4:19
  that we are not allowed to eat.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: God said, you must not eat it or even touch it.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: If you do, you will die.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: You won't die, the serpent replied to the woman.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: and you will be like God,
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: knowing both good and evil.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: The woman was convinced.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: and she wanted the wisdom it would give her.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: So she took some of the fruit and ate it.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: Then she gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate it too.
• 5:03
  At that moment,
• 5:04
  their eyes were opened and they suddenly felt shame at their
• 5:11
  nakedness.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: When the cool evening breezes were blowing,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: the man and his wife heard the Lord walking about in the garden.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: So they hid from the Lord among the trees.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right, that's just the first part.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of sets it up.
• 5:40
  And again,
• 5:40
  let's remember,
• 5:42
  this is not a historic account of what happened today.
• 5:46
  This is a story meant to help us begin to unpack why all of
• 5:51
  this goodness doesn't
• 5:52
  always seem that good and why the world now today seems to be a
• 5:57
  mixture of both
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: good and evil,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: pain,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: suffering,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: and joy.
• 6:02
  And so this is a story that kind of comes at us sideways with
• 6:07
  some different things.
• 6:08
  And the great things about stories is they allow us to see
• 6:12
  things from different
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: perspectives,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 6:15
  um and so there's a lot that we could unpack here um but before
• 6:19
  we do uh i just
• 6:21
  want to see we didn't get a chance to do this last time but um
• 6:25
  john let's start
• 6:26
  with you what what observations do you have about these first
• 6:28
  eight verses
• 6:30
  Well,
• 6:31
  I think the big one is why is the tree of knowledge of good and
• 6:36
  evil there at all anyway?
• 6:38
  And the criticism sometimes that's leveled directly at God
• 6:42
  saying why you put that
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: in there knowing it was going to tempt them.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a little bit of human nature in this as well.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always think about,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: this is not me,
• 6:53
  but if you took a person and put them in a room and there was a
• 6:56
  hundred buttons in
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: the room and one big red button in the middle with a sign that says,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: do not press this button.
• 7:02
  There are some people who would have the self-control to not
• 7:06
  press that button,
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: but that's not me.
• 7:08
  But if you put two people in the room,
• 7:10
  that button's getting pressed 100% of the time.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just think sooner or later, that's getting pressed.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So why is the tree there at all?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing that there would be,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:20
  let's say devastating learning taking place at the hand because
• 7:26
  of that tree.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big one.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And as a part of the answer, let's remember...
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a historic accounting of what happened.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is a metaphor.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is a parable.
• 7:49
  And so part of what we need to be careful of is to say,
• 7:53
  well,
• 7:53
  why did God put that tree there?
• 7:56
  Rather than saying,
• 7:58
  what is the tree saying about God and our relationship with
• 8:00
  God?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why was that symbolism used?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: What is it trying to teach us?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: not that your question is wrong,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: because I do think that there are some interesting answers to that,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: but it is a question that people have asked many,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: many times.
• 8:15
  Well,
• 8:16
  if you didn't want them to have that choice,
• 8:19
  why give them that choice?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second thing that comes from this for me is,
• 8:26
  and I have been in a church before where the sermon being
• 8:30
  preached about this
• 8:32
  was how basically the man was fine until the evil woman came
• 8:37
  and tempted him and
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: made him eat the apple.
• 8:40
  And there's all this sort of preaching being done about
• 8:48
  differences between men and
• 8:49
  women or differences between who's tempting who and who is just
• 8:54
  fine and all that.
• 8:55
  But that's absolutely part of the thread that I think many
• 9:00
  churches draw from this.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's some confusion in that as well.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with that one.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: If we go back to chapter two,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: We have the story of God creating Adam.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he puts Adam in this garden.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: He says, you have access to everything in this garden.
• 9:18
  Every tree is available to you except the tree of the knowledge
• 9:20
  of good and evil.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you eat from that fruit, you'll die.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now notice who was not there when God gave that commandment.
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  SPEAKER_01: Eve wasn't there.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't hear that commandment.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: So now...
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You have Eve standing there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And remember, they're supposed to be one.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Supposed to be knitted together.
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  SPEAKER_01: Heart to heart, which means that you care for each other.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: You want to protect each other.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: She's being tempted.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Adam knows what's going to happen.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't stop her.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't know because she's not been told.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: He knows and he doesn't stop her.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So really,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: if anybody shares blame,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's Adam for not stepping in and saying,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: wait a minute,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Eve,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know something you don't know.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: This tree is not for us.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't she share that with the serpent, though?
• 10:24
  Or doesn't she say,
• 10:26
  hey,
• 10:27
  no,
• 10:27
  when she's...
• 10:30
  Did Adam give her a heads up or no?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, did God say you shall not eat from any tree in the garden?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: She said, well, no, God didn't say that.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: He said, we can eat from any tree in the garden.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're right.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you shall not eat from the fruit in the middle of the garden.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: You shall not touch it or you shall die.
• 10:48
  And so part of what's happening here is he's confusing her
• 10:53
  about what's going on.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe Adam gave her a little heads up,
• 10:58
  but he wasn't clear on what was going on because she's confused
• 11:01
  immediately.
• 11:06
  And the other thing I think is important here is there are some
• 11:10
  who suggest that
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: what Adam is doing is he's standing back because he's right there.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And he's going to let her take a bite.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if she dies, well, she wasn't supposed to eat of it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: But if she doesn't die and suddenly her eyes are open, man, he's all in.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So he is being pretty shifty here.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I think, yeah, and maybe I overstated my point a little bit.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: She wasn't there when the commandment was given by God.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: She's getting it secondhand and,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: apparently not clear enough because she was easily tripped up.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: She did right away.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: What was it that she was in or something like that?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this whole thing about blaming the woman for sin is A,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: not biblical,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: and B,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: is missing the whole point of the story because they both ate from it.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then they both sort of try to place the blame somewhere else.
• 12:25
  And rather than blaming anybody,
• 12:27
  we should be taking responsibility for our actions.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of what this story is trying to say.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let's come back to yours.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's look a little bit at what happens in this story.
• 12:42
  This is an illustration sometimes of how temptation can work in
• 12:48
  our lives.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: So she's in this relationship with God.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's heard something about,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: to clarify,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: because Terry,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: you're right,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I may be overstated,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: but she does know she shouldn't be eating from that tree.
• 13:05
  But a voice inside her head or the snake,
• 13:08
  whatever,
• 13:08
  her own rationalizations,
• 13:10
  whatever it is.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this is a story.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not literal.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: boy, that just, it looks so good.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, well, yeah, but you can't eat from any fruit.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So right away, throw some confusion in.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Don't, you can't eat from any of it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, no, no.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what was said.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, what God said was you can't eat from that tree or touch it.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, God didn't say anything about touching it.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now it would be implied, probably.
• 13:45
  If you touch it,
• 13:46
  you're probably going to be tempted,
• 13:47
  but that wasn't in there.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So she's already a little confused.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're not going to die.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to rationalize,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: and how many of us,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: we can probably all think of something we did that we rationalized it.
• 14:04
  Well,
• 14:04
  that's not what really is going to happen,
• 14:06
  or that's not really that bad.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're not really going to die.
• 14:12
  in fact if I do this thing it may actually be beneficial for me
• 14:18
  I may actually
• 14:19
  profit from this this might be good for me yeah and I think
• 14:23
  what's really devious
• 14:25
  here is and it says as soon as you eat it you'll be like God
• 14:30
  knowing both good and
• 14:32
  evil and implied in that is you want to be like God and God
• 14:38
  does not want you to be
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: like him
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: And he's keeping something from you.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he's keeping it from you.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:45
  And that's really,
• 14:46
  I mean,
• 14:46
  there's the lies have already started,
• 14:47
  but that's really devious.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, what it's saying is you can't trust God.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: God is holding out on you.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he doesn't have your best interest in heart.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even though just the previous podcast was basically the most beautiful,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: caring story I ever read,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 15:08
  And it's all completely different according to the serpent or
• 15:11
  whoever's even
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: talking here in verse 4.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there's doubt cast on God.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's doubt cast on whether God really has our best interest in
• 15:25
  And then there is this,
• 15:28
  at least in this story,
• 15:29
  this desire to be like God.
• 15:33
  And what the first two chapters of this story are trying to
• 15:35
  tell us is God is God and we're not.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a God of lavish love, lavish grace, wants to be God.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And God is way above your pay grade.
• 15:48
  And once you start acting like God,
• 15:49
  you get yourself into all kinds of trouble.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: It breaks relationships.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: You get into power struggles.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: You get into jealousies.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: When human beings start playing God, it goes wrong.
• 16:05
  And I think that's part of what this story is trying to say
• 16:08
  here is when we think
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: we're smarter than God,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: we get ourselves into trouble.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: When we try to be like God, we become less than human.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: We sort of devalue ourselves.
• 16:28
  To be human,
• 16:29
  to be fully human,
• 16:29
  is to live in a trusting relationship with God.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: When we don't trust God, we become less than human.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because now we're not living out our intended purpose in life.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: In some ways, what's happened here is that Adam and Eve lose their way.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: think the story of the prodigal son,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of a retelling of the Adam and Eve story,
• 17:03
  where the prodigal son runs away from the father and wants to
• 17:08
  be on his own and can
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: do it better than his dad,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: can spend his money better than his dad can,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: and he ends up in a pigsty.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's just lost.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of what happens to Adam and Eve.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: We can do this better.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they end up lost and sort of stuck in their own pigsty.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then once they see this,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: once they have tried to be like God,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: they realize,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: we're nothing like God at all.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly they're not, the vulnerabilities are gone.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: The intimacy with God is gone.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Not from God's part.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, God comes looking for them.
• 17:53
  But it's Adam and Eve who for the first time in their
• 17:55
  relationship with God hide from God.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because they know that something's wrong.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is just a very human story.
• 18:08
  And I think in part what this story is trying to say is that
• 18:12
  it's not this evil
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: wicked God who has unleashed evil into the world like the other gods.
• 18:22
  This is a God who created us out of love to live in a loving
• 18:25
  relationship.
• 18:27
  And that loving relationship by its very nature means that in
• 18:31
  order for us to be
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: loved by God and to fully love God,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: we have to be able to make some choices.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And part of being the image of God is the ability to make choices.
• 18:45
  And if you can't make a choice to love someone or not to love
• 18:49
  someone,
• 18:49
  then is it really love?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of the question of this story.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, John, when you ask the question, why is that tree there?
• 19:04
  The tree wasn't put in this story to say that God tempted us or
• 19:10
  put it there to tempt us.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's there to be a reminder of a couple things.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: One,
• 19:15
  we live in a loving relationship with God and part of that
• 19:18
  loving relationship
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: means we can make some choices.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And number two, God is God and we're not.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some things that God knows that we don't need to know.
• 19:30
  And when we try to weasel in on God and try to be like God,
• 19:35
  we end up less than human.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So God didn't put it there to tempt us.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: God put it there as a reminder of our freedom,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: God's love for us,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: and that God is God and we're not.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, remind me for a second.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: I can go back and look.
• 19:55
  In last week's,
• 19:57
  did the scripture say that God said,
• 19:59
  don't eat from that tree?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord God commanded the man,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: you may freely eat of every tree in the garden,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: you shall not eat for in the day that you eat of it,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: you shall die.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: So metaphorically, can you tether for me as the story goes?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:19
  why the introduction of the idea of good and evil when it's
• 20:22
  like a perfect,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: pristine absence of that mark,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: those kinds of marks at that time,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: like fright from the straight from the beginning,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: was that just the means to introduce making choices?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if part of the reason for it is to say so far,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: you've had this story of a really good,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: gracious God.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we know that the world isn't like that.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: That side of telling the story.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're setting up another story to help us now take very seriously.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Evil suffering.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Which the Bible does, you know, remarkably well.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:09
  It's got this good God,
• 21:10
  but it doesn't shy away from the realities of evil.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the interesting thing about the Bible is
• 21:17
  is that in some ways it never gives a satisfactory answer to
• 21:23
  suffering and evil in the world.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And how can you in the end?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: How can you?
• 21:30
  You can tell stories to say this is what it looks like,
• 21:33
  and that's what this story is.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is what it looks like.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like people trying to act like God.
• 21:39
  It looks like people trying to take for themselves what doesn't
• 21:41
  belong to them.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like that.
• 21:45
  It happens when we try to justify our actions when we know we
• 21:47
  shouldn't be doing something.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Paul says it this way in Romans 7.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: That which I would not, that do I do.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: The things that I want to do, I don't do.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: The things that I don't do, that I should do.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way sin works.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is a story.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a descriptive story of how sin entered the world.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's simply a descriptive story of how sin works in the world.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we all have that experience.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Every one of us has justified our actions in some way, shape or form.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: OK.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: It really is hard,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: to be honest,
• 22:24
  for someone like me to stay on that side of this fence when I
• 22:28
  was reared and
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: introduced with it being very literal.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:32
  I mean,
• 22:32
  so I keep even when I start to ask a question,
• 22:35
  I go,
• 22:35
  oh,
• 22:35
  no,
• 22:35
  wait a minute.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a historical.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so I have to remove myself.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: But let me ask this.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think I have one foot in both camps when I say it.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to say.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: But like in,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: and I don't know why I'm curious about it,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: but in the storytelling of Eve approaching the serpent,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm doing quote marks.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the serpent approached her.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Serpent approached her.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: And having the discussion, thank you.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: And having the discussion with the serpent,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: in the timeframe of creation,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: is there any significance to like,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: or any knowledge of how soon this was?
• 23:18
  Or are they just telling the story all those many years later
• 23:22
  as just a big overview?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like when it's told,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: it seems like,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: and then like three days later after he took the rib,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: then the serpent came up.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's told that way, but I don't know if that is,
• 23:34
  pertinent in any kind of hindsight reference right i think
• 23:38
  that's a great i think
• 23:39
  that's a great question if we take these stories literally
• 23:42
  we're looking at
• 23:43
  sequence correct these are not sequence stories okay these are
• 23:49
  snapshot stories got
• 23:51
  it to just explain different parts of not so much creation but
• 23:57
  to answer those big
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: questions who is god and
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: God is a good God, okay?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: If God's a good God, how come everything doesn't seem so good?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: We just spent 400 and some years in slavery.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: How can this God be good?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you get another story, a little snapshot.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, here's how it works in the world, right?
• 24:19
  So there are some people who believe that evolution says that
• 24:26
  there was one
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: human being, male and female, came out of Africa.
• 24:31
  There are others who believe that there were groups of human
• 24:33
  beings and were
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: different kinds and eventually we evolved into human beings.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's timeline stuff.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't timeline stuff.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is story stuff.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: These are trying to explain big questions.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than sitting down and saying,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: sin happened because A,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: B,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: C,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: D,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: and E,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: and here's the logic of it,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: they just tell stories.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then you read the story and say, oh yeah, I've had that happen to me.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a snake,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: but I heard this voice inside of my head that said,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: you should go over there and...
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Get the double-double.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Get the double-double.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And because, you know what?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I ran six miles today.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can certainly eat 16 burgers.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then suddenly you're smarter than all the health experts, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And these are little ways that we rebel.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I think the other thing that's really important here...
• 25:29
  in this story is that what's being violated here in some ways
• 25:36
  are relationships.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: The relationship between God and the human being is called into question.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: The relationship between Adam and Eve is called into question.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Adam,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: regardless of what he told Eve,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Adam is standing there watching this whole thing happen.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't intervene.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's super interesting,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tim,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: to think about what is his job and duty as an honorable man and husband,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: we're,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: reading some into the poetry here,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it's fair to read that in.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And just check yourself.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not going to answer my own question.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to say, hey, what...
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: What would have been my job here?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's not watching TV.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's not caught up watching football.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: That we know for sure.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: He's right there because she hands the apple to him.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: He is within distance.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so really what's the focus of this is not so much on the behavior,
• 26:45
  but on the breaking of relationships and the disfiguring of
• 26:49
  relationships.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: You see already Adam and Eve throwing barbs at each other.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is the woman.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: She made me do it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then, well, no, it was the serpent who made me do it.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they start blaming each other rather than owning up,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: number one,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: rather than taking responsibility.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the relationship between God and not from God's part,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: but ours has changed because they've got to cover themselves up now.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And even the relationship between the two people has changed.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so in some ways,
• 27:24
  this is a human story about human community and the broken webs
• 27:31
  of relationships
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: that come when we become self-serving,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: when we try to impose our own wisdom on others,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: where we think we're smarter than God.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got really...
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: fraying of relationships here.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: We tend to think of sin as, you know, doing bad things.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: But sin is always first and foremost relational.
• 28:00
  It's the breaking of relationships between us and God,
• 28:04
  between each other.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why the gospel story is about God reconciling,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: which means to put relationships back together.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: which fell apart right away in Genesis chapter 3.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Again, not sequentially, but in the telling of this story.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why are relationships broken?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: because we blame each other,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: because we think we're smarter than God is,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: all kinds of things,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: because we listen to the wrong voices.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so rather than saying this is how it happened,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: this is just kind of what it looks like every day.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the way human beings are.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it doesn't really say, well, why?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why did they make that decision?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can kind of read into it, but that's not the point.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: The point really is to say, this is what life is like.
• 28:57
  And the early listeners would say,
• 28:59
  yeah,
• 28:59
  yeah,
• 29:00
  that's,
• 29:00
  yeah,
• 29:01
  we see that all the time.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've experienced that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a story about wandering away from God's best.
• 29:13
  And when we wander from God's best,
• 29:16
  our relationships with God are broken.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Our relationships with each other become fractured.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Terry's thinking, just so you know.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: When you're on a podcast, you can't think.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: You just got to say it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: It just,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: it comes back again to the,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I got hung up on the good and evil,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: but it comes back to that because that is where,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: as you mentioned earlier,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: where we,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: there are,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: is it fair for me to say,
• 29:53
  that that is kind of God's way of saying,
• 29:56
  I need you to work with me here.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: This is what being in a relationship with me is.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning in life,
• 30:02
  there are some things that I need from you or I don't know if
• 30:09
  I'm saying it
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: correctly.
• 30:12
  And when we don't go there or when we don't relinquish that or
• 30:18
  however I'm trying
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: to say it,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: we then damage that relationship.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: No?
• 30:25
  Ultimately what happened was they were created by a creator who
• 30:32
  loves them,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: who provided everything for them,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: and for them it wasn't enough.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they trusted themselves to provide for themselves,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: to get for themselves over God and decided that
• 30:53
  For whatever reason,
• 30:53
  this God who provided everything for them was holding out on
• 30:56
  them.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so the trust relationship was broken.
• 31:03
  And I would suggest the trust relationship between Adam and Eve
• 31:07
  was broken in many ways.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And partly if you look at cultures today, what's the biggest issue?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: We don't trust each other.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: We think that person is going to hurt us.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: That person is going to take my job.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: That person is going to lob a bomb at me.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: We don't trust people.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: We make enemies out of people.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's the human story.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: I was just going to say, so is that not just human in and of itself?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what Genesis 3 is trying to do.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's trying to tell us a human story.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we look at it and we say, yeah, I see myself in that.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I see us in that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: It may not necessarily explain everything.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I see it.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:54
  And I was reading a quote from somebody who was talking a
• 31:56
  little bit about this passage.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Jesus kind of summarizes it from the cross.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Father, forgive them because they don't know what they're doing.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know what they're doing.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, Adam and Eve didn't really know what they were doing.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: We do these things.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: We think it's the right thing to do.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Crucifying Jesus seemed like the right thing to do.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And in the end, we're just completely lost because we lost our way.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: We lost our compass.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, say that again?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: We lost our compass.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: We lost our way because our eyes were focused on us,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: what we want,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: our own selfish stuff,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: rather than on what God wants for us and why God created us.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe a positive way of saying it is, what did God create us for?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: To love the Lord our God with heart,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: soul,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: mind,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: and strength and love our neighbors as ourselves.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: The story of Adam and Eve and the fall...
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: which the Bible doesn't use that word,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: but the story of Adam and Eve and whatever we want to call that story,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: was because they didn't love the Lord their God with heart,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: soul,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: mind,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: and strength,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: nor their neighbor as themselves.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And thus there were consequences.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: Were they capable?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Of what?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, is it of us as human beings?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: I guess, did we come into this being already leaning into not trusting?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think, again, this is not a how did it happen story.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is a this is what it looks like story.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's trying to answer for us.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: How it happened.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: The moment it happened.
• 34:06
  I think what it's trying to say is you're asking the question,
• 34:08
  why is everything so broken?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this story says,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: because we tend to trust ourselves over God,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: because we tend to trust ourselves over the other person.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's why things are broken.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a moment in time.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's an ongoing human story.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:25
  I guess I'm just settling with – and I know it sounded like I
• 34:28
  was asking about a
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: moment in time,
• 34:30
  but I think I would just – I'm just settling with that this is
• 34:34
  the human experience
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: and that – because if God is all-knowing,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: he can't be surprised by it,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like this is humanity.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a whole other –
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:56
  But I think part of the challenge for all of us who are raised
• 34:59
  with a certain
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: understanding of Genesis,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: that these are literal stories that have a timeline to them.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:08
  It's really hard for us to just sort of divorce ourselves from
• 35:11
  that and say,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: this is telling a story and like good stories.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's the meaning behind the story?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: What is the meaning of this story?
• 35:21
  The relationship with God is not the way it was presented in
• 35:23
  chapters 1 and 2.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: We know that.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what's going on?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the human condition is this.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: We seek things that don't belong to us.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: We grab out for power.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: We grab for whatever.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got Lord of the Rings.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: You've got Gollum.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: who grabs the precious, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: A power that doesn't belong to him.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it do?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: It disfigures him.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: It turns him from a hobbit, spoiler alert, into this creature, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's grabbing for something that doesn't belong to him.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Adam and Eve grab for something that doesn't belong to them.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it just sort of fractures the image of God in us in many ways.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're created good.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: But we have this propensity toward selfishness rather than God focus.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not giving us a reason for it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not giving us a why or how did it happen.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's saying this is simply what it looks like.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the listeners are saying, yep, yep, yep, done that.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Been there, done that.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Super good.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's right.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard not to read it linearly.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Chronologically.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Especially when it starts out in the beginning.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it already sets down, throws down.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if we can, if we can sort of, again, always imagine.
• 37:01
  They're sitting around the campfires after seeing this God who
• 37:04
  they didn't really
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: know do all these miracles.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're saying, all right, who is this God?
• 37:09
  And the storytellers sit down and they say,
• 37:11
  well,
• 37:11
  let me tell you about this God.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they tell this beautiful creation story.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next night, the little kid says, well, wait a minute.
• 37:19
  You painted a pretty picture there,
• 37:21
  but we just spent 400 years in slavery.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: What's that about?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And those people over there in Egypt, they're mean.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes my Uncle Ted, he's mean.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's that about?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's talk about what we're like as human beings.
• 37:38
  And I wonder,
• 37:41
  I'm going to be careful saying this,
• 37:43
  but I'll say it anyway.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if we have read into this story that we were created perfect.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if it's saying we were created perfect, but
• 38:00
  It says we were created and we were in this loving relationship
• 38:06
  with God.
• 38:06
  We were intended to be in this loving relationship with God of
• 38:09
  trust and hope and
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: love where God would provide.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And to be naked and ashamed doesn't mean that they were perfect, does it?
• 38:19
  No,
• 38:20
  I think that where that might come from,
• 38:21
  because I'll confess I've thought it,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: That we were in his image.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: An image doesn't have to be exact.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess, yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: So again, if we look at these stories as relationship stories.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not as behavioral stories first and foremost, but relationship stories.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: That our relationship with God is a good one.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: God is a God who is for us.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: God is a parent who cares for us.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: God is a God who provides for us.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in that kind of relationship, we can be naked and unafraid.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: But when in the relationship,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: we decide to do certain things that are hurtful to ourselves or to God,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: it begins to break the relationship.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: So take a marriage.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: You look at two people.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take the best marriage we can think of.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm happy to have one.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think John's got one.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, you had one with Jonathan where we all have stuff.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the relationships are really good and solid.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean the marriage is perfect, but it's good.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's doing what it's meant to do.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then every once in a while,
• 39:37
  I'll do something and it just sort of interrupts the flow of
• 39:42
  the relationship.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And for a while, it doesn't feel so good.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if we use good,
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: fit for purpose rather than perfect,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: and we think relationally,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: then maybe these stories are a little less intimidating for us.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we're asking relational questions.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how come these relationships are broken?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is it about it?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And well, this is how relationships get broken.
• 40:09
  We start becoming self-serving or we start to doubt or we ask
• 40:14
  the wrong kinds of
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: questions and so on.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that maybe is more helpful for us.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredibly helpful.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Very insightful.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it took us 40 minutes, but we got there.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just through verse 8.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So something bad happened.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're going to see, are there consequences to our actions?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back with you next week.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Genesis chapter 3, verse 9 and following.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, everybody.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.
• 40:49
  Bye.