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Sovereign Soil | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

0:08
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with a UK Column interview and
0:12
Speaker 1: I've gone on safari to Gloucestershire where I'm with Tracey Wooster. Now,
0:18
Speaker 1: I think we're going to learn an awful lot about
0:21
Speaker 1: how to get things done. Tracey, very warm welcome to
0:25
Speaker 1: UK Column.
0:26
Speaker 2: Thank you.
0:28
Speaker 1: Not at all. I wanted to keep the introduction very
0:31
Speaker 1: brief because I think there's a huge amount to talk
0:33
Speaker 1: about but let's start with something that we can I
0:36
Speaker 1: think go from which is Farms Not Factories and what
0:41
Speaker 1: it does and then I think we can work backwards
0:44
Speaker 1: from there. So just tell me a bit about Farms
0:47
Speaker 1: Not Factories and what at the moment you do and
0:51
Speaker 1: it does.
0:52
Speaker 2: Okay well at the moment we are functioning like sort
1:00
Speaker 2: of advertising outlet to encourage people to realize that farmers
1:07
Speaker 2: exist in this country but they won't unless people buy
1:12
Speaker 2: from them and they will only produce the food that
1:17
Speaker 2: those people ask for so if we want no animal
1:22
Speaker 2: cruelty we have to demand it because farmers can't produce
1:28
Speaker 2: good quality when there is extremely poor quality that you
1:32
Speaker 2: have to compete with, either from imports or from factories
1:37
Speaker 2: in this country. So we interview small-scale, chemical-free or organic farmers,
1:46
Speaker 2: particularly in this country. But originally, I was abroad. So
1:53
Speaker 2: we started with a film called Pig Business. And then
1:57
Speaker 2: we did nine different versions in different countries where people
2:00
Speaker 2: wrote and said, help, we've got a factory farm for
2:04
Speaker 2: pigs about to get planning permission or we've got it
2:07
Speaker 2: already open, can you help us close it? And then
2:11
Speaker 2: after that, I realised that actually my contacts are in
2:15
Speaker 2: this country. There's a dire situation in this country of
2:19
Speaker 2: ever more factory farms being built. So we focused on
2:23
Speaker 2: pigs just because the footprint, of a pig factory is
2:29
Speaker 2: reflective of other footprints, but it is particularly nasty. So
2:34
Speaker 2: you have these incredible animals that all of us love, pig,
2:39
Speaker 2: and yet the cruelty that is suffered by these animals,
2:43
Speaker 2: unless you ask for organic or free range, that will continue.
2:49
Speaker 2: So it's really up to us, citizens, consumers, we have
2:54
Speaker 2: the choice. And we can buy quality. And actually, if
2:59
Speaker 2: you think about it, your body is your sanctuary. It's everything.
3:03
Speaker 2: What are you putting into your body by just trusting
3:06
Speaker 2: the supermarkets?
3:07
Speaker 1: Okay. That's a huge amount already. We've shot into, I think,
3:15
Speaker 1: follow-up questions for at least another, let's say, 30 minutes.
3:20
Speaker 1: What you're describing is a very, very clear-headed evaluation of
3:25
Speaker 1: not just the problem but the solution now you are
3:29
Speaker 1: one of only a tiny tiny number of people that
3:32
Speaker 1: sees that can we go backwards now to understanding how
3:37
Speaker 1: it is that you did come to see that how
3:39
Speaker 1: did you get to the point where you even began
3:42
Speaker 1: to think of this as being a concern.
3:44
Speaker 2: You know I think that most human beings are concerned
3:50
Speaker 2: but they have to have a job and Very often
3:54
Speaker 2: that job is what they're trained in and they need
3:58
Speaker 2: to earn enough money to survive. I mean, in this world,
4:02
Speaker 2: you probably can't buy a house ever. I mean, it
4:06
Speaker 2: is absurd, this system. But I was unbelievably privileged in
4:12
Speaker 2: that I was married to a wealthy man. So I
4:16
Speaker 2: didn't have to earn a living. And nobody could shut
4:20
Speaker 2: me down if I didn't obey any orders. So I
4:25
Speaker 2: never got charity status because I wasn't prepared to go
4:28
Speaker 2: by the rules. So we filmed and we broke into
4:34
Speaker 2: factory farms or we did things that we weren't allowed
4:38
Speaker 2: to do. I bent every ear to try to get
4:43
Speaker 2: articles published, films put out, and we had a tiny effect.
4:50
Speaker 2: We were in Latvia filming one of the big... pig
4:53
Speaker 2: business series. And there was an advert on the TV saying,
4:57
Speaker 2: unless you buy Latvian food, our farmers will disappear. So
5:04
Speaker 2: that's when I decided that it was really important to
5:08
Speaker 2: be like an advertising platform. And I've really been not
5:14
Speaker 2: very successful at raising money, although I did do the
5:17
Speaker 2: odd fundraising event to try and get wealthy people and
5:22
Speaker 2: celebrities to come on board and so that was quite
5:26
Speaker 2: helpful in pushing it out further but i've never had
5:30
Speaker 2: to have a job since being married so i actually
5:34
Speaker 2: think it's in all of us to be a campaigner.
5:38
Speaker 1: Okay yeah but i think you're doing yourself down there
5:40
Speaker 1: because there's a lot more to it than that and
5:42
Speaker 1: i think the it's the the moral element to it
5:46
Speaker 1: which is what people seem to find so difficult so
5:48
Speaker 1: just you know talking about trying to introduce influential people
5:53
Speaker 1: to this It's sort of notable today how few influential
5:56
Speaker 1: people are actually prepared to stick their neck out and
5:58
Speaker 1: say the sorts of things that you not just are
6:01
Speaker 1: saying but have said for a number of years. That's
6:04
Speaker 1: a difficult thing to do. Where does that come from?
6:08
Speaker 2: I think we all have a heart. We all can
6:11
Speaker 2: do it. It's just very difficult to hold on to
6:15
Speaker 2: your job if you are dedicating your time to get
6:19
Speaker 2: informed about factories everywhere. and the farming that comes out
6:24
Speaker 2: of this new terrifying system. So I do spend a
6:29
Speaker 2: lot of my time speaking to people and they're all
6:33
Speaker 2: on board. They all agree that we want healthy food
6:38
Speaker 2: from animals that had a decent life. But some people
6:44
Speaker 2: can't afford it. Some people think they can't afford it
6:48
Speaker 2: just because psychologically there is a sort of that's cheaper.
6:52
Speaker 2: so they can't resist it. So you actually get some
6:55
Speaker 2: fairly wealthy people with food in their fridge that has
7:03
Speaker 2: no indication that they've made any effort at all. So
7:07
Speaker 2: I just want to ensure that there is a sort
7:11
Speaker 2: of movement of people who are prepared to be counted,
7:15
Speaker 2: that they care.
7:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, this I think is something you demonstrated very,
7:21
Speaker 1: very well, admittedly a while ago, but you've referred a
7:24
Speaker 1: couple of times now to the documentary you made, Pig Business,
7:28
Speaker 1: which I want to talk about the process by which
7:30
Speaker 1: you actually got it onto the screen with Channel 4,
7:33
Speaker 1: because I know there were a few bumps along that
7:34
Speaker 1: particular path. But what comes across very strongly in that
7:38
Speaker 1: is how, in particular, the community in Poland does care.
7:41
Speaker 1: And you talk about people not wanting to stick their
7:43
Speaker 1: necks out because they're fearful of losing their jobs. And
7:46
Speaker 1: yet at the same time, what the documentary articulates very
7:49
Speaker 1: well is the consequence of not standing up and watching
7:54
Speaker 1: your smaller local economies being steamrollered by corporations. So it's
8:00
Speaker 1: as though people are not seeing the connection between standing
8:04
Speaker 1: up for what's right and in fact their livelihood, which
8:07
Speaker 1: is a bit perverse. So to take the line in
8:12
Speaker 1: time from then to now, Do you feel that there
8:16
Speaker 1: has been progress in so far as awareness and action
8:19
Speaker 1: is concerned? No.
8:23
Speaker 2: I see films being made now which are identical to
8:27
Speaker 2: pig business. So it's extraordinary how we're not awake. We
8:35
Speaker 2: need to be far more in control. People don't think
8:39
Speaker 2: that they're spending that little bit extra is going to
8:43
Speaker 2: make any difference. And I don't know what to do
8:48
Speaker 2: about that. I know that there is a massive PR
8:51
Speaker 2: machine to get people to just buy what's cheapest and
8:55
Speaker 2: what looks good. Whereas actually, if you see in this garden,
8:59
Speaker 2: there's quite a lot of the outside of the veg,
9:02
Speaker 2: which they put in the compost. And it's like, ah, no,
9:06
Speaker 2: I'll eat that. And it's just that we need to
9:10
Speaker 2: all of us wake up and take responsibility for for
9:15
Speaker 2: what is going on in our world because actually we're
9:18
Speaker 2: actually losing more farmers today than when I started campaigning
9:24
Speaker 2: because it's the farmers that are the heroes. So I'm
9:28
Speaker 2: actually reluctant to be critical of any sort of farming
9:32
Speaker 2: now just because that concern has been hijacked by the
9:37
Speaker 2: fake food corporations who want those people who care about
9:43
Speaker 2: the welfare of the animal to buy fake meat instead
9:46
Speaker 2: of saying you can buy real meat from real farmers
9:51
Speaker 2: where the animal has had a really good life and
9:55
Speaker 2: the cycle of that animal's pooing and fertilization the grass
10:02
Speaker 2: and the carbon that goes down in those roots is
10:06
Speaker 2: being sequestered and then the cow eats the grass and
10:10
Speaker 2: it's like there is no problem with pasture fed animals
10:17
Speaker 2: causing climate change But the corporations who are in control
10:22
Speaker 2: of our world, our government, our newspapers, are leaving it
10:28
Speaker 2: to ordinary people to decipher where are the lies and
10:33
Speaker 2: where's the truth. And that's where we have to do
10:36
Speaker 2: a lot of work. Us ordinary citizens of where is
10:42
Speaker 2: the truth? Where are the independent newspapers or news outlets
10:47
Speaker 2: like UK Column? And I worked quite closely with Julian
10:51
Speaker 2: Assange because I was asked to be a surety. And
10:54
Speaker 2: I saw the journalists who were prepared to write about him.
10:59
Speaker 2: And those that actually weren't allowed to, so they would leave.
11:04
Speaker 2: The ones that were brave and cared started independent media outlets. Well,
11:11
Speaker 2: they're the ones to follow. So the newsletter, which I
11:15
Speaker 2: write with my partner every month, is... these independent media
11:22
Speaker 2: experts or former people from the CIA or former military
11:28
Speaker 2: or former weapons inspectors they're all highly acclaimed highly intelligent
11:34
Speaker 2: they're obviously telling the truth but you've got to find them.
11:39
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah absolutely okay let's go back I think you
11:42
Speaker 1: make such an interesting point about the the binary in
11:45
Speaker 1: effect the false binary that's being presented which is rather
11:48
Speaker 1: than choosing properly reared meat, it's go to fake meat.
11:55
Speaker 1: You just skip that altogether. Now, I don't want to
11:58
Speaker 1: put words in your mouth, but it is certainly a
12:02
Speaker 1: correlation that the rise and rise and rise of devices
12:08
Speaker 1: of a technological nature have found themselves in people's hands.
12:12
Speaker 1: One thing that struck me very much from pig business
12:14
Speaker 1: was the footage you showed of protests going back to
12:17
Speaker 1: the 1990s how people there was just this idea that
12:19
Speaker 1: people got out there that was a period where people
12:21
Speaker 1: went out and did stuff I think perhaps my feeling
12:25
Speaker 1: now is that that doesn't happen so much and and
12:28
Speaker 1: it seems to again go hand in hand with the
12:32
Speaker 1: brainwashing element of people just not having any idea that
12:35
Speaker 1: any of this stuff either is bad for them bad
12:37
Speaker 1: for the animals bad for the environment I mean how
12:40
Speaker 1: do you feel about those things but the the correlation
12:43
Speaker 1: in particular with the the ever increasing sort of addiction
12:48
Speaker 1: to tech and the not really doing anything?
12:51
Speaker 2: Well, when people say you're really addicted to tech, I
12:55
Speaker 2: have to kind of admit that so am I, because
12:58
Speaker 2: actually I'm always listening to programmes which I think that
13:05
Speaker 2: I need to put in the newsletter and that would
13:07
Speaker 2: inform people of what's going on, both in food and
13:12
Speaker 2: farming and what's happening with our water and... So I'm
13:16
Speaker 2: just going to go through the chapters of the newsletter
13:18
Speaker 2: of why I am also always on my iPhone. But
13:21
Speaker 2: I have really searched to make sure that what I'm
13:24
Speaker 2: listening to is informing me. So I'm actually not a
13:28
Speaker 2: great lover of fiction. I like fact. So although actually
13:33
Speaker 2: George Orwell's 1984 is a fact. We're in the fact
13:38
Speaker 2: right now in the world that we're living. So I'm
13:42
Speaker 2: always listening out for programmes. that I can put in
13:45
Speaker 2: the newsletter, which is food, farming, water and ecocide and geoengineering.
13:52
Speaker 2: And it's surveillance, censorship, corruption and coercion. That's another chapter.
14:01
Speaker 2: And blackmail. And then you've got that the COVID-19 jab
14:06
Speaker 2: was neither safe nor effective. And you've got the war
14:10
Speaker 2: in Ukraine that was 100% provoked. and then Israel, which
14:15
Speaker 2: is a racist, apartheid, genocidal project. So people need to
14:22
Speaker 2: be aware that we've got government officials who not only
14:27
Speaker 2: don't do what we want by constantly pulling into our
14:33
Speaker 2: country food from countries which have lower standards and undermining
14:37
Speaker 2: our farmers, but they're also pushing for wars, which we're
14:42
Speaker 2: supposed to go and fight. Well, Who wants to fight
14:44
Speaker 2: against Russia? What's Russia done wrong? And yet people just
14:49
Speaker 2: don't know. They don't want to. They don't understand. But
14:53
Speaker 2: the brainwashing is something else. So maybe what you're saying
14:57
Speaker 2: about addiction to the iPhone is that those people are
15:00
Speaker 2: being brainwashed by mainstream media. But quite a lot of
15:05
Speaker 2: them are not actually. And it's extraordinary the people who
15:09
Speaker 2: are not immediately involved in AI or government or banks,
15:17
Speaker 2: they're actually aware that their politicians don't represent them at all.
15:23
Speaker 2: But they don't have an alternative. So the demonstrations, for example,
15:27
Speaker 2: in London to free Palestine are absolutely brilliant. And even
15:33
Speaker 2: against the war, I mean, there's a lot of things
15:39
Speaker 2: very mixed up, actually. You never quite know what people
15:43
Speaker 2: are marching for, because they're probably marching for quite different things.
15:47
Speaker 2: And that's sort of on purpose. They sort of model everything.
15:50
Speaker 2: So we're polarised. So we sort of fight each other.
15:53
Speaker 1: Well, I think it might be fair to say that
15:55
Speaker 1: a lot of the people marching don't quite know why
15:57
Speaker 1: they're there. But perhaps that's taking that a bit far. Yes,
16:02
Speaker 1: but you see, sorry, just to go back to the
16:05
Speaker 1: tech thing, you have just made a very strong case
16:08
Speaker 1: for why you why you do it you're there is
16:11
Speaker 1: a result there is an output there and that that
16:14
Speaker 1: is critical and that's why when I started this I
16:17
Speaker 1: talked about you as a doer and it seems from
16:21
Speaker 1: I think my perspective from the UK column perspective we
16:25
Speaker 1: as you know we have a great relationship with our
16:28
Speaker 1: audience with our membership and there are you know the
16:30
Speaker 1: perennial question is well what can I do and Although
16:35
Speaker 1: you are quite clearly very humble about what you have done,
16:39
Speaker 1: the fact is that this is not a sort of,
16:42
Speaker 1: you know, one-hit wonder. You've got a track record of
16:47
Speaker 1: decades of doing this. And, you know, I want to
16:50
Speaker 1: understand more about that because I think you have smashed
16:53
Speaker 1: through some pretty considerable obstacles. So let's go back to
16:57
Speaker 1: the making of pig business. The fact that Channel 4
17:00
Speaker 1: did show that. I mean, do you think they put
17:02
Speaker 1: that on today?
17:05
Speaker 2: I don't know because I never watched the TV. But
17:07
Speaker 2: to be honest, it's back to the fact that I
17:09
Speaker 2: was privileged that I had some money because I actually
17:11
Speaker 2: made all three films without anybody commissioning them. I just
17:18
Speaker 2: wanted to show what's going on. And so I had
17:22
Speaker 2: to speak in Bhutan at some gross domestic happiness conference.
17:27
Speaker 2: And I just thought, I'm not going all the way
17:29
Speaker 2: to Bhutan for 20 minutes talking when I was leaving
17:33
Speaker 2: my family behind me. I'm going to make a film. So, whoa,
17:37
Speaker 2: was that difficult. But I do have a very obstinate
17:43
Speaker 2: streak in me that I did actually get a cameraman
17:46
Speaker 2: in Bhutan and I did make the film. And I
17:49
Speaker 2: don't know how. But anyway, yes, I got cancer probably
17:54
Speaker 2: as a result of all this bashing at closed doors.
17:58
Speaker 2: But same in India. And the same with the one
18:02
Speaker 2: about the pigs. just wanted to show and I just
18:07
Speaker 2: thought somehow and I was always writing articles and you
18:11
Speaker 2: know trying to push them into newspapers and trying to
18:15
Speaker 2: get friends to hey Charlie I had a friend called
18:18
Speaker 2: Charlie Glasgow please can you edit this so that fucking
18:20
Speaker 2: newspapers will take it and it's like so lightly they're
18:24
Speaker 2: going to take my articles because they were always against
18:29
Speaker 2: the mainstream against the status quo but I didn't know
18:32
Speaker 2: that so in a way that obstinacy and ignorance made
18:37
Speaker 2: me do things which, just through miracle, Channel 4 took
18:43
Speaker 2: it and even paid me some money for it. And
18:47
Speaker 2: there was huge pressure from Smithfield Foods of America at
18:51
Speaker 2: that time, now being bought by China, that if you
18:55
Speaker 2: print it, Channel 4, if you publish it, we will
18:58
Speaker 2: sue you. You know, they got their best lawyer. I
19:02
Speaker 2: don't know, they just did wonders. And I think it
19:05
Speaker 2: was because the commissioner of the time really also cared
19:12
Speaker 2: and saw that this was something that he wouldn't be
19:15
Speaker 2: able to make. It would be far too expensive and
19:18
Speaker 2: difficult without some crazy person doing it on their own.
19:23
Speaker 1: Like, what? Well, I'm not sure that's quite... fair representation
19:28
Speaker 1: of what happened, to be honest, but as I say,
19:32
Speaker 1: I really do commend the film, the documentary, to everybody
19:37
Speaker 1: because it tells the most amazing story. Now, you're talking
19:41
Speaker 1: a lot about things that haven't happened, but let's talk
19:45
Speaker 1: about what's behind us here because there are areas of
19:50
Speaker 1: which you have absolutely demonstrated that you have made a difference,
19:54
Speaker 1: you have done something, there is a tangible effect. So,
19:59
Speaker 1: in relation to food and this idea that the best
20:04
Speaker 1: system is... where a thriving local economy buys food locally
20:08
Speaker 1: and in effect everybody benefits. Just talk to me about
20:11
Speaker 1: what's happening here for a start.
20:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, again, I'm incredibly lucky that I have this
20:19
Speaker 2: walled garden. And in my divorce, it was like the
20:22
Speaker 2: number one thing that I fought for was to have
20:25
Speaker 2: this walled garden. Because for me to supply local food,
20:30
Speaker 2: chemical free, to help people understand that it's so much
20:35
Speaker 2: more delicious and it's so much better for you. And
20:38
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be really expensive if it's got
20:41
Speaker 2: none of that transport infrastructure going on. And I wanted
20:45
Speaker 2: to be able to say to other farmers, you can
20:48
Speaker 2: do it, but actually it's very, very difficult to make
20:54
Speaker 2: it work. So I have again an advantage because I
20:59
Speaker 2: have a big enough house that I house all the workers.
21:04
Speaker 2: in my home, because Gloucestershire rents are impossible if you've
21:09
Speaker 2: got the salary of somebody who's growing carrots. And I
21:14
Speaker 2: still have to subsidise it. So I haven't been able
21:17
Speaker 2: to tell local farmers, come on, this is another way
21:19
Speaker 2: of you making money. Because, you know, you have to
21:22
Speaker 2: get skilled at how to grow. And I mean, you
21:25
Speaker 2: can't see the detail, but there's a flea beetle on
21:28
Speaker 2: these Cavallo Nero that it's like, there's no chemicals here.
21:33
Speaker 2: So you just have to work out how you ensure
21:37
Speaker 2: that that doesn't kill your whole row. But I'm not
21:41
Speaker 2: the expert. I'm the landlady both of the garden and
21:47
Speaker 2: the home, and I subsidize it, but drew. And actually
21:53
Speaker 2: what I find is that I can't hold on to
21:56
Speaker 2: the head growers because what people really want is to
22:00
Speaker 2: have their own land, their own project, but it's very,
22:04
Speaker 2: very difficult. So they burn out very easily, but people
22:09
Speaker 2: sort of move on and say, I'm going to do
22:11
Speaker 2: it on my own.
22:12
Speaker 1: Okay, this is where I wanted to go, actually. The
22:16
Speaker 1: idea of this, you know, it being very difficult, or
22:19
Speaker 1: you might lose one part of what it is you're growing.
22:22
Speaker 1: We live in an age where it does look very
22:24
Speaker 1: much like almost everybody thinks that we should be able
22:28
Speaker 1: to have anything we want, whenever we want it. And
22:30
Speaker 1: that it's absolutely not on if nature says, no, no,
22:35
Speaker 1: we're not going to do that. And we look back
22:38
Speaker 1: and we see, I think in particular, perhaps from the 1950s,
22:43
Speaker 1: when we started seeing farmers, of all people, deciding that
22:46
Speaker 1: they would sacrifice something like this for supposed convenience and
22:51
Speaker 1: that somehow there was something wrong with working or making
22:56
Speaker 1: an effort to achieve something. How did people begin to
23:00
Speaker 1: be convinced of that, to sacrifice the sort of lifestyle
23:04
Speaker 1: that we lived for generations?
23:08
Speaker 2: Well, I'm really lucky because I get a never-ending flow
23:13
Speaker 2: of people who are young, intelligent, and who just want
23:18
Speaker 2: to learn how to grow their own food and to
23:20
Speaker 2: get out of the city. And they share my life.
23:23
Speaker 2: And as we live in a culture where the extended
23:26
Speaker 2: family is broken, there they are. I can learn about
23:30
Speaker 2: what's going on in the world through these young, intelligent minds.
23:34
Speaker 2: And they love it here. They love growing. They love
23:38
Speaker 2: being outside. And people come back. Onyx is coming back.
23:42
Speaker 2: It's like his fifth year he's come to grow food.
23:47
Speaker 2: And it's hard work. I have to say that I'm
23:50
Speaker 2: afraid I spend more time looking at my laptop, working
23:55
Speaker 2: on my newsletter and working with my partner Alistair to
24:00
Speaker 2: make the films with local farmers than I do actually
24:03
Speaker 2: what I should be doing which is improving my strength
24:07
Speaker 2: and health by being outside. It's so healthy. So I
24:13
Speaker 2: really envy countries that still have a peasant culture. And
24:18
Speaker 2: actually I went to the Amish in Washington and they
24:24
Speaker 2: were so welcoming and they said usually people come and
24:26
Speaker 2: they sort of look at us like animals in a
24:29
Speaker 2: zoo but you you come in you actually have our
24:32
Speaker 2: culture come and talk to our children show them how
24:36
Speaker 2: you don't have it better out there actually a horse
24:40
Speaker 2: and plow is really efficient and it's a beautiful life
24:46
Speaker 2: where you go to the market in your horse and
24:49
Speaker 2: carriage it was just and you don't have a phone
24:52
Speaker 2: in the house, and you have big extended families, and
24:57
Speaker 2: you all work together. So each farmer helps each other.
25:02
Speaker 2: And that's what we should be. We should be strong communities.
25:05
Speaker 2: But we can rebuild our communities. But we have to
25:10
Speaker 2: give up that city life. It's got to come from us.
25:14
Speaker 2: So like Catherine Austin Phipps says, the way to withstand...
25:19
Speaker 2: this terrifying world where we're all being surveyed. I mean,
25:24
Speaker 2: we are living in a 1984, actually, already in the
25:29
Speaker 2: poverty that we have of debt and poor quality food
25:35
Speaker 2: and no time to exercise except for in some gym
25:38
Speaker 2: and streets are full of cars that don't give a
25:43
Speaker 2: damn about people. We should be able to live and
25:49
Speaker 2: earn a living today. in a village, in a village community.
25:52
Speaker 2: So I think that the more people who get out,
25:56
Speaker 2: buy a little bit of land, rent a little bit
25:59
Speaker 2: of land, live in a community, grow your own food,
26:03
Speaker 2: educate your own children so they're not brainwashed. I mean,
26:07
Speaker 2: I found it quite difficult to raise my children because
26:10
Speaker 2: very often the school would tell them that the food,
26:15
Speaker 2: for example, that they were given was fine. But it's not.
26:19
Speaker 2: because the government's not prepared to, or the school's not
26:21
Speaker 2: prepared to, give enough money to feed your children properly. So,
26:25
Speaker 2: you know, I think home education. But I had to
26:29
Speaker 2: listen to my husband, and he didn't want any of that.
26:31
Speaker 2: But Rudolf Steiner schools, send your children to a school
26:36
Speaker 2: where they are understanding the interconnectedness of all the subjects,
26:41
Speaker 2: and how we are not just made for staring at
26:45
Speaker 2: screens all day long. And I think the sort of
26:48
Speaker 2: world they're shaping is that soon those mobile phones will
26:51
Speaker 2: be in our heads, will be connected to some electronic device.
26:55
Speaker 2: We won't be human anymore. We'll be expected to be
26:59
Speaker 2: these machines. And I think the sooner we recognize what
27:04
Speaker 2: is coming through this obsession with our iPhone and our
27:08
Speaker 2: laptop and our machines, the better. And that can start
27:13
Speaker 2: with food. Don't buy food, which is potentially the next
27:20
Speaker 2: generation of junk food, is replacing meat and real vegetables
27:27
Speaker 2: with highly processed food. And I actually see the vegans
27:31
Speaker 2: as their sort of test case because these are people
27:34
Speaker 2: who really, really have made an effort in their life
27:38
Speaker 2: to not be cruel to an animal. But actually, if
27:42
Speaker 2: they could just buy meat which was outdoor food, raised
27:46
Speaker 2: they'd realize that those animals actually do have a good
27:49
Speaker 2: life so it's like saying we don't want human beings
27:52
Speaker 2: because we're very cruel and we're gonna look what we're
27:56
Speaker 2: witnessing in in Gaza we're devils no we can be
28:01
Speaker 2: good but we must take those choices like buy food
28:05
Speaker 2: that's being kind buy clothes that is second hand you
28:09
Speaker 2: know don't go into this new clothes and throw it
28:13
Speaker 2: away kind of culture yeah.
28:16
Speaker 1: Which has pervaded really every element of society. I'm so
28:21
Speaker 1: glad you mentioned the Amish because I think I won't
28:24
Speaker 1: be the only one listening to you speak and thinking, crikey,
28:27
Speaker 1: you are very hard on yourself and talking about the
28:30
Speaker 1: things that you haven't achieved or haven't attained or you
28:33
Speaker 1: haven't quite got there and it doesn't work and there's
28:35
Speaker 1: not enough money and this, that and the other. I
28:37
Speaker 1: don't mean to accuse you of going down the doom
28:39
Speaker 1: and gloom route, but the fact is you've just mentioned
28:42
Speaker 1: the Amish. You have a very clear idea in your mind,
28:44
Speaker 1: it strikes me, that you know where we should be going.
28:47
Speaker 1: It's just that we're not there yet. And because you're
28:48
Speaker 1: doing it every day, you see what's not changing. But
28:52
Speaker 1: let's face it, things have and things are. Tell me
28:55
Speaker 1: about the newsletter, because you've sort of glossed over it,
28:57
Speaker 1: you've made it sound like a piece of cake. For
28:59
Speaker 1: anyone who's ever looked at it, that cannot be a
29:01
Speaker 1: piece of cake. It is incredibly detailed. It's very, very
29:04
Speaker 1: well researched. How did you even conceive of the idea
29:08
Speaker 1: that that was possible?
29:12
Speaker 2: I think that a kind of process of elimination, okay?
29:19
Speaker 2: I'm not a good writer. I'm not a good presenter.
29:25
Speaker 2: But actually, I'm quite a good stenographer. So you in
29:29
Speaker 2: UK Column, you do the work. You produce me the
29:32
Speaker 2: Vanessa Beelys. And all I do... is write up what
29:36
Speaker 2: Vanessa's saying because she's brilliant. And I just put these
29:42
Speaker 2: people who are prepared to sacrifice their freedom because actually
29:48
Speaker 2: any day she could be arrested, any day the Israelis
29:53
Speaker 2: could bomb her because she is spreading the message of
29:57
Speaker 2: what's going on in Lebanon in in Gaza in Syria
30:04
Speaker 2: her information is true accurate passionate she's got a great
30:10
Speaker 2: sense of humor she's she's if you listen to her
30:13
Speaker 2: for five minutes you'd realize that she's the one to
30:17
Speaker 2: listen to and the same with the other people that
30:19
Speaker 2: you have on your show and then people like Judge
30:22
Speaker 2: Napolitano he has he was he is a judge but
30:26
Speaker 2: was obviously a life of of being a judge he
30:30
Speaker 2: finds the former very establishment people who because they've retired
30:37
Speaker 2: they can tell the truth and they do and they're
30:41
Speaker 2: brilliant so my newsletter is literally getting these heroes one
30:48
Speaker 2: tiny step further in broadcasting what they have to say
30:55
Speaker 2: and what I've done is because I've been campaigning for
30:58
Speaker 2: 34 years have a huge collection of emails of people
31:04
Speaker 2: who've given me that email and who know that I'm
31:07
Speaker 2: a campaigner. So here we go, Tracy Worcester, another email.
31:12
Speaker 2: And so the person who does the send out, he
31:16
Speaker 2: says that we have a huge number of people who
31:17
Speaker 2: actually open the email. He's amazed. So I just sort
31:21
Speaker 2: of feel, okay, if people are going to actually hear
31:25
Speaker 2: Vanessa Bealey or Patrick Henison, or you, you know, or
31:32
Speaker 2: UK Column, then that's my job done at the moment,
31:37
Speaker 2: sitting in front of a computer of a 67-year-old old bag.
31:42
Speaker 1: I should remind the audience that we didn't rehearse this
31:44
Speaker 1: plug for UK Column, but we're very grateful for it.
31:46
Speaker 1: Well done. One thing that comes across very strongly is
31:52
Speaker 1: the relationship between food, its production, its consumption, all the
31:59
Speaker 1: factors of improvement of the environment, improvement of health that
32:03
Speaker 1: go with that, and freedom and sovereignty. And it always
32:08
Speaker 1: strikes me as totally perverse that people don't see this.
32:11
Speaker 1: And as a, I think, terrific example, not that I'm
32:17
Speaker 1: advocating for subsidy for farmers, because as Julian Rose has
32:21
Speaker 1: always said, subsidy creates slaves, but nonetheless, it roughly... the
32:26
Speaker 1: British government spends about five billion pounds a year on
32:31
Speaker 1: the farming budget which would be swallowed by the National
32:34
Speaker 1: Health Service in 10 days so there are so many
32:39
Speaker 1: hidden costs as it were to not doing what it
32:42
Speaker 1: is that you're advocating for but but I think it's
32:47
Speaker 1: it's particularly this idea that um that a connection to
32:50
Speaker 1: the land and a relationship with food the sort that
32:54
Speaker 1: you're advocating for is the great unlocker to to freedom
33:01
Speaker 1: and sovereignty why don't people get that message why don't
33:04
Speaker 1: why don't people see.
33:05
Speaker 2: That you know i think if people live in a
33:08
Speaker 2: city they've been so disconnected from the land and not
33:14
Speaker 2: saying this is across the board but it's quite well
33:16
Speaker 2: known that people genuinely think that milk comes from a
33:20
Speaker 2: bottle in a supermarket and it's like there's very little
33:24
Speaker 2: effort that's put into helping children understand about food. So
33:30
Speaker 2: I would definitively like local food, relocalizing the economy in
33:38
Speaker 2: every way. And that would be in our aid to
33:43
Speaker 2: other countries. It would be, we will help if you
33:47
Speaker 2: stay living in the countryside. And we need to learn
33:51
Speaker 2: from you and how you live in the countryside and
33:54
Speaker 2: how you make this wonderful food and how you get
33:58
Speaker 2: it to your market and how you get people to
34:01
Speaker 2: go to the market. Because actually, sadly, in this country,
34:05
Speaker 2: not very many people go to the farmers markets. I mean,
34:08
Speaker 2: if we go to Stroud, we make 400 pounds. If
34:10
Speaker 2: we go to the local one, we make 80 quid.
34:14
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't even cover the cost of having
34:16
Speaker 2: somebody stand there. So you're right. even country people, they're
34:20
Speaker 2: not really aware that unless they buy from their farmers
34:25
Speaker 2: and they buy the food they want to eat, in
34:29
Speaker 2: other words, buy the organic if you don't want it
34:32
Speaker 2: full of chemicals, buy it. But they don't. And therefore,
34:37
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes when people really give their life, I
34:42
Speaker 2: remember saying to Julian Assange, you know, you have done
34:47
Speaker 2: so much work for us and yet I see so
34:51
Speaker 2: little support for you please just get yourself out of
34:56
Speaker 2: jail whatever it takes so the fact that he had
35:00
Speaker 2: to agree that he'd done a crime good on you
35:03
Speaker 2: of course you haven't done a crime look after yourself
35:08
Speaker 2: because the human race is asleep and I don't know
35:13
Speaker 2: what to do to wake them up because I know
35:17
Speaker 2: they care because I can't stop talking about it with
35:22
Speaker 2: people what's going on well they do care but they
35:26
Speaker 2: do nothing about it and you know perfectly they can't
35:31
Speaker 2: afford it if they treated their body like a sanctuary
35:35
Speaker 2: it's got to be healthy they wouldn't eat what is
35:39
Speaker 2: they're buying and you see the people for their snack
35:43
Speaker 2: lunches putting things in plastic in a a machine to
35:49
Speaker 2: heat it up. And you imagine all those microplastics going
35:52
Speaker 2: into that food. Well, the facts are out there. And
35:56
Speaker 2: in our newsletter, we publish things like that all the time.
36:00
Speaker 2: You know, hello, wake up.
36:05
Speaker 1: I think it's another, you know, to sort of extend
36:08
Speaker 1: that contradiction, to me, it seems yet a further example
36:14
Speaker 1: that A lot of people who see many of the
36:16
Speaker 1: corruptions that we're talking about at a macro level, especially
36:21
Speaker 1: corporate control and the absolute loss of sovereignty, will talk
36:26
Speaker 1: about that at the same time as not buying food
36:30
Speaker 1: that they would be made healthy by, that would do
36:33
Speaker 1: all the things that we're talking about. But also that
36:36
Speaker 1: money that they're spending, if it goes to Tesco, for example,
36:40
Speaker 1: is in fact... going into the larger investors into that organisation,
36:44
Speaker 1: such as Vanguard, State Street, BlackRock. And so I think
36:49
Speaker 1: there is, even on what we might describe as this
36:52
Speaker 1: side of the fence, there's an awful lot of cognitive
36:56
Speaker 1: dissonance with regard to this whole situation and the fact that,
37:01
Speaker 1: like you say, food and the approach to life being
37:05
Speaker 1: changed could have such a radical impact on so many things.
37:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. There are so many empowering decisions that people can
37:15
Speaker 2: make every single day with the power of their purse.
37:20
Speaker 2: And they do make a difference. And also, you know,
37:24
Speaker 2: we're social animals. We could get people together in our
37:28
Speaker 2: homes and talk to them about, you know, what is
37:31
Speaker 2: it this week that you've given up or you could
37:34
Speaker 2: share that you didn't realize that actually that's poisonous, what
37:39
Speaker 2: that detergent that you're cleaning your child's chair with is
37:46
Speaker 2: a poison you know it's like you know we want
37:50
Speaker 2: to communicate with each other well why not communicate through
37:53
Speaker 2: real facts life changing life enhancing get informed and then
38:00
Speaker 2: you'll be so welcome because people want to know what's
38:03
Speaker 2: going on I find people are fascinated by what's going
38:08
Speaker 2: on I think.
38:09
Speaker 1: They are Now, where do you stand on qualified successes?
38:13
Speaker 1: On the way here, I passed a sign for one
38:15
Speaker 1: of James Dyson's very many farms, the largest owner of
38:20
Speaker 1: agricultural land in England. He's made some claims about reducing
38:26
Speaker 1: chemical inputs and such and such. How should we consider
38:34
Speaker 1: something like that? What's your opinion of, maybe not necessarily him,
38:38
Speaker 1: I don't want to turn it into a personal uh
38:40
Speaker 1: consideration but um but should we should we be positive
38:44
Speaker 1: about those sorts of changes even if they're on an
38:47
Speaker 1: absolutely monumental scale in terms of control no i.
38:51
Speaker 2: Think avoid the people who are i mean he makes
38:57
Speaker 2: vacuum cleaners you know and you know maybe stick to
39:01
Speaker 2: buying that but now he's turned to food and he's
39:06
Speaker 2: inflating the price so in this area when he buys
39:10
Speaker 2: land which he does all around the place nobody can
39:14
Speaker 2: afford the land so there was a farm for sale
39:18
Speaker 2: for two million local people wanted to buy it the
39:22
Speaker 2: vendor wanted to sell it to us local people but
39:25
Speaker 2: he put another 400,000 on the 2 million and they
39:30
Speaker 2: couldn't say no to the extra. He's got so much money.
39:33
Speaker 2: He can just do that. And then you look at
39:36
Speaker 2: the farm, you know, it's, it's all metal and glass
39:39
Speaker 2: and machines and it's not in the soil. It's, And
39:47
Speaker 2: I visited those sort of vertical farms in China. And,
39:51
Speaker 2: you know, you've got all of these syringes, you know,
39:54
Speaker 2: one of them's got water, one of them's got fertilizer,
39:57
Speaker 2: and then you've got the pesticides and you've got very
40:00
Speaker 2: few people. And it's just like, it's factory. And I'm sorry,
40:06
Speaker 2: but I love William Cobbett. I want traditional farming where
40:12
Speaker 2: we can be in communities where we can grow our food,
40:16
Speaker 2: where we can eat our food that's fresh, because it's much,
40:19
Speaker 2: much healthier if it's really fresh. And there should be many,
40:23
Speaker 2: many more small-scale enterprises. And I would be very pro
40:27
Speaker 2: people sitting on the land and just saying to the landowner,
40:31
Speaker 2: come on, I want, I mean, here is only 1.7 acres.
40:36
Speaker 2: It doesn't take much. And we feed probably about 40
40:39
Speaker 2: families a year. I mean, it is very productive. you know,
40:44
Speaker 2: give me a piece of land. That's what happened in
40:46
Speaker 2: India and they got their piece of land. Yes. But obviously.
40:50
Speaker 1: Okay, but we'll just talk more about that because I
40:52
Speaker 1: think it's very easy because you, this is your, you know,
40:56
Speaker 1: specialist subject as it were, you know so much and
40:58
Speaker 1: I think it's easy for you to sort of skip
41:01
Speaker 1: ahead of so many of the things that people listening
41:03
Speaker 1: and watching might not necessarily understand. Just talk about that
41:06
Speaker 1: as a case study, people in India.
41:10
Speaker 2: Well, there are just, lot of demonstrations and for example
41:15
Speaker 2: the government was threatening to take away the guarantee that
41:20
Speaker 2: the farmers would have for their produce so like I
41:29
Speaker 2: can't remember but literally Delhi was totally blocked with farmers
41:34
Speaker 2: and their vehicles for a year and the the government
41:38
Speaker 2: back down. And the guarantee is still there. So you
41:41
Speaker 2: can't get the corporations coming in and pushing down the
41:45
Speaker 2: price so that the farmers go out of business. Now
41:49
Speaker 2: that's neoliberal politics. That's what the West has completely embraced.
41:55
Speaker 2: It's a globalist mindset where your food, your food is
42:02
Speaker 2: treated like a toaster or a pair of shoes. No.
42:06
Speaker 2: It has to be It just has to be produced
42:12
Speaker 2: in a way where the actual nutritional value of that
42:16
Speaker 2: food is in that what you're going to put in
42:20
Speaker 2: your body so that you remain healthy and you don't
42:24
Speaker 2: get illnesses. And actually, my children were amazed when I
42:30
Speaker 2: got cancer because they said, but mum, you eat everything organic.
42:34
Speaker 2: How come? And I think it's stress. Mm-hmm. I think
42:38
Speaker 2: that a lot of us live very stressed lives and
42:42
Speaker 2: I'm so privileged that those bills that come in every day,
42:45
Speaker 2: I'm okay. But imagine the life of people today where
42:52
Speaker 2: you are basically born in debt, frankly. You can never
42:57
Speaker 2: afford a house. You have to borrow for everything. Your
43:01
Speaker 2: salary doesn't go up. Your costs go up and yet
43:05
Speaker 2: you're now dependent on this very centralised system, we need
43:10
Speaker 2: to break away from it. And we could learn from
43:14
Speaker 2: countries like India that are still with their small-scale family farms.
43:20
Speaker 2: And they're doing okay. Or at least when I was there,
43:24
Speaker 2: they were doing okay.
43:26
Speaker 1: But it is such a powerful message because what it
43:29
Speaker 1: reminds us is that if it's targeted appropriately, the system
43:33
Speaker 1: does yield. It has to. And I think this is
43:38
Speaker 1: what comes across so powerfully from you, even though the
43:42
Speaker 1: way you put it is to suggest that it's a
43:46
Speaker 1: battle in which only very small, very marginal gains are made.
43:49
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people listening and watching
43:51
Speaker 1: will actually see that there's so much more to it
43:53
Speaker 1: than that because the benefits that you're talking about, the
43:55
Speaker 1: benefits to the soul, to the psychology, to the community
43:59
Speaker 1: are tremendous. I mean, that is massive. Now, in terms
44:03
Speaker 1: of influence, Is it a coincidence that your sister, Rachel Ward,
44:11
Speaker 1: has converted her farm in New South Wales to a
44:14
Speaker 1: regenerative enterprise?
44:19
Speaker 2: It's sort of common sense, isn't it, if you have
44:22
Speaker 2: a heart. I mean, I followed her in most of
44:28
Speaker 2: the things that I did in the past. And I
44:31
Speaker 2: think that what she says is that she was listening
44:35
Speaker 2: to my words. concerns and therefore she saw that turning
44:43
Speaker 2: your farm into something that was positive for the environment
44:47
Speaker 2: no more chemicals no more shopping at the supermarket and
44:52
Speaker 2: she's amazingly gotten other farmers together and helping them get
44:58
Speaker 2: a market in sydney so i hope that the films
45:03
Speaker 2: that we put on our newsletter and I think we've
45:08
Speaker 2: got 70,000 followers on social media are all about people
45:13
Speaker 2: like Rachel who are doing really important things to rebuild
45:18
Speaker 2: the local food economy and they're really quite successful because
45:22
Speaker 2: actually what they have done is they've combined tech with
45:27
Speaker 2: more efficient ways of selling and buying produce and putting
45:31
Speaker 2: it in a box and getting it quickly out which,
45:35
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not good on tech, but I'm all
45:41
Speaker 2: for it if we can, like Riverford box scheme. I mean,
45:46
Speaker 2: talk about efficient. It's not even very expensive, and you
45:49
Speaker 2: can get a box of vegetables delivered to your door.
45:53
Speaker 2: And if you just take what is seasonal, it's really
45:55
Speaker 2: not expensive. But it's certainly not expensive compared to what
45:59
Speaker 2: you're going to pay for with your breakdown in your
46:02
Speaker 2: body of buying the food from the supermarket. I mean,
46:06
Speaker 2: what is in that food? Where's it come from? How's
46:10
Speaker 2: it been genetically engineered to last on the warehouse and
46:18
Speaker 2: then the lorry and then the supermarket shelf before you
46:22
Speaker 2: eat it? You know, it's very frightening how they're pushing
46:26
Speaker 2: through tech food along with the sort of tech growing
46:32
Speaker 2: in vertical farms and the gloop which is coming out
46:37
Speaker 2: of those machines that the corporations will make cheap enough
46:44
Speaker 2: to tempt people and then you've got the kind vegans
46:47
Speaker 2: who kind of go for it because they don't want
46:49
Speaker 2: to be cruel to the animal no get your meat
46:52
Speaker 2: from pasture fed animals they're there and they do have
46:57
Speaker 2: a good life go and see some animals in the
47:00
Speaker 2: field they're Very happy animals.
47:03
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that was very striking
47:05
Speaker 1: from pig business was the lack of traceability in terms
47:09
Speaker 1: of labelling. Impossible to tell where anything had come from,
47:12
Speaker 1: really what it was made of, and the awful story
47:16
Speaker 1: that really should be told by a label. And where
47:18
Speaker 1: we are now with precision breeding and gene editing, genetic
47:22
Speaker 1: modification and all the rest of it, it strikes me
47:25
Speaker 1: that it's not really possible that we could be where
47:27
Speaker 1: we are now if the traceability and labelling issue was
47:32
Speaker 1: not as lax as it was back then.
47:34
Speaker 2: Yeah and it goes on being laxer and laxer and
47:38
Speaker 2: what they're introducing and not having a label for this
47:44
Speaker 2: gene edited and they're pretending that it's not genetically manipulated
47:49
Speaker 2: organisms it it it is and do your research go
47:54
Speaker 2: to beyond gm read about it And then you'll know
47:58
Speaker 2: to avoid it. And if enough of us avoid it,
48:01
Speaker 2: it won't be on the shelves anymore.
48:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. You know, it is people power. They
48:07
Speaker 1: need to act decisively and show that by, you know,
48:15
Speaker 1: shopping elsewhere. And I think the other heartening thing is
48:18
Speaker 1: specifically with supermarkets. I think we spoke about this the
48:21
Speaker 1: other day. You know, their margins, their profit margins are
48:24
Speaker 1: actually minute. It doesn't really take very much for things
48:29
Speaker 1: to have to change quite drastically so in answer to
48:31
Speaker 1: the question of what can I do well there you
48:33
Speaker 1: go even if it's not a total break and I
48:35
Speaker 1: think that's that's probably a trap a lot of people
48:37
Speaker 1: fall into psychologically is thinking right well I've got to
48:39
Speaker 1: change absolutely everything straight away I mean it needs to
48:43
Speaker 1: be a progression doesn't it yeah.
48:46
Speaker 2: And there's lots of things that you can just decide
48:48
Speaker 2: is what your wallet can afford what your research has
48:52
Speaker 2: stretched to because you're very very busy whether you are
48:57
Speaker 2: come out of the city, which I would recommend to
49:01
Speaker 2: come out of the city. Don't join that prison. In
49:07
Speaker 2: a way, it's like a pig factory because you're living
49:11
Speaker 2: on top of each other and it's just not necessarily
49:16
Speaker 2: making you very happy. Whereas in the countryside, where you
49:20
Speaker 2: have a community that has their own front door and
49:23
Speaker 2: a little bit of garden and they kind of talk
49:26
Speaker 2: across over the wall and it's not in flats. And
49:30
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I went to China recently just to
49:33
Speaker 2: sort of see if it's so terrible. We've got to
49:36
Speaker 2: go to war with them. It's like, no. It's not
49:39
Speaker 2: so terrible, but I'm sorry. I don't really buy that
49:45
Speaker 2: they've taken 800 million people out of poverty just because
49:51
Speaker 2: a lot of those people were living in villages. And
49:54
Speaker 2: I went 30 years ago to China and I saw
49:56
Speaker 2: people living in villages. They wouldn't have had a penny
49:59
Speaker 2: in the bank, but they knew what their fields could
50:03
Speaker 2: provide them. They knew how to heat their houses from
50:07
Speaker 2: the local wood through the local water overheating it passing
50:12
Speaker 2: it through pipes in through their houses and i just
50:16
Speaker 2: don't buy that living in a high rise in china
50:20
Speaker 2: is progress i think and i spoke to you know
50:24
Speaker 2: not very many people i'm not pretending to be an
50:27
Speaker 2: expert but the people i did speak to they both
50:30
Speaker 2: said that their parents regretted leaving the village and coming
50:34
Speaker 2: into the city and it's They regressed it, but at
50:38
Speaker 2: the time it was, you know, you then get a
50:40
Speaker 2: free flat or you get heating and it all sounds
50:44
Speaker 2: so great. And I had the same conversation with somebody
50:47
Speaker 2: actually in Krakow in Poland. And she said, you know,
50:50
Speaker 2: we were persuaded to come away from the city and
50:52
Speaker 2: told that we'd live in these wonderful houses. And actually
50:56
Speaker 2: they were quite magnificent in the early days, those houses.
51:00
Speaker 2: And they were, children were taken out to the countryside
51:05
Speaker 2: regularly to keep in touch with it. But it's kind
51:08
Speaker 2: of now steamrolling everybody to leave the countryside, go and
51:13
Speaker 2: live in the city. It's somehow better, but it's quite
51:19
Speaker 2: fine and job easier. But let's form jobs locally that
51:23
Speaker 2: we can teach each other's children. We can build a village.
51:29
Speaker 2: You know, there are lots of communities you can go
51:31
Speaker 2: and you know, join them. They want families to join.
51:36
Speaker 2: And you can build a straw bale house and you
51:39
Speaker 2: can share bringing up your children. There are options, but
51:43
Speaker 2: you have to look for them.
51:44
Speaker 1: They do. It's a really, really important point. The illusion
51:48
Speaker 1: of progress, the change that it represents, the illusion of progress,
51:52
Speaker 1: the movement off the land into a city where apparently
51:54
Speaker 1: things are more convenient and easier to do. Now, again,
51:58
Speaker 1: to come back to a point that was made by
52:00
Speaker 1: you many years ago, this idea that the breaking up
52:05
Speaker 1: of the land, and by the way, I'm so glad
52:06
Speaker 1: I did ask about James Dyson, because I think that, again,
52:09
Speaker 1: is a terrifically important point you make. But this idea
52:12
Speaker 1: that actually by breaking up the smallholding patchwork of land
52:17
Speaker 1: ownership results in not just a loss of sovereignty and
52:21
Speaker 1: a loss of freedom, but also the eradication of a culture. Now, again,
52:26
Speaker 1: not wanting to put words in your mouth, but how
52:30
Speaker 1: do you regard that against the legitimate but the persistent
52:38
Speaker 1: concerns about migration into this country and the introduction of
52:45
Speaker 1: other cultural influences? Do you think there's a relationship between
52:49
Speaker 1: those two things?
52:53
Speaker 2: Well, I actually feel that it's so sad when people
52:58
Speaker 2: leave their country. That country educated them, they've got their language,
53:04
Speaker 2: they've got their culture, they've got their family, they've got
53:08
Speaker 2: a life. And it's because of us that the economic
53:12
Speaker 2: system is basically being siphoned, the money's being siphoned into
53:17
Speaker 2: global banks. And they feel that the way to progress
53:22
Speaker 2: is to go and move, for example, from Romania to Germany.
53:29
Speaker 2: and there you are going to be paid better. But
53:34
Speaker 2: look at the quality of life compared to your country
53:38
Speaker 2: and your land. And I do think that people who are...
53:42
Speaker 2: I mean, if you just look at who your friends are,
53:49
Speaker 2: a lot of my friends actually are not from this country,
53:52
Speaker 2: but they are people who share the same values of
53:57
Speaker 2: wanting to be close to the... to the land or
54:00
Speaker 2: understanding that. And I find actually people who are immigrated
54:07
Speaker 2: usually have closer ties to the land, closer ties to
54:10
Speaker 2: extended families. They are sort of richer characters. So I
54:18
Speaker 2: appreciate them, but I do also understand how if you
54:22
Speaker 2: are living in a city and suddenly there's nobody in
54:26
Speaker 2: the children's class that speaks the language or they're all
54:30
Speaker 2: got very very different values to you if you're not
54:34
Speaker 2: sort of like me who's really yearning for that man
54:40
Speaker 2: who's just come over from Afghanistan who understands traditional culture
54:45
Speaker 2: and and still relationships with with women I mean I
54:50
Speaker 2: remember having a conversation with him and saying you know
54:53
Speaker 2: you bash us for how we treat our women but
54:56
Speaker 2: look at the way you treat your women You know,
54:58
Speaker 2: you spend all day in the office leaving your wife
55:02
Speaker 2: with the children and then you're so stressed you come
55:04
Speaker 2: back and you get drunk. And then you're violent or
55:08
Speaker 2: you're abusive or you're... We don't do that. We don't
55:11
Speaker 2: drink alcohol. We don't go away all day long. We
55:14
Speaker 2: don't live in cities. You know, we've got to sort
55:16
Speaker 2: of have a look at what these people that come
55:19
Speaker 2: to our country are, why they're sacrificing their country. It's
55:24
Speaker 2: often because we've bombed them or we've stolen their money.
55:28
Speaker 2: And I'm sorry they come here because I think they're
55:33
Speaker 2: probably much happier back home. And therefore my desire for
55:39
Speaker 2: local economics is local here, local culture, but local there too.
55:46
Speaker 2: So try to encourage people to stay there rather than
55:50
Speaker 2: come here. And I think it's a part of the
55:52
Speaker 2: World Economic Forum agenda to make there be no nationhood
55:58
Speaker 2: no feeling of pride of your country because it's so
56:02
Speaker 2: mixed now and maybe these people are more malleable because
56:06
Speaker 2: they're more desperate because they've got no family they've got
56:09
Speaker 2: no roots they've got no identity anymore maybe they're going
56:12
Speaker 2: to be the ones that they'll send off to fight
56:14
Speaker 2: in Ukraine for money because they're quite desperate for an income.
56:21
Speaker 1: Yeah well like a burgeoning number of people now um
56:26
Speaker 1: It's a reminder. I mean, exactly what you're speaking about
56:28
Speaker 1: is a reminder, of course, of how little things change
56:31
Speaker 1: as the years go by and how our constant meddling
56:33
Speaker 1: in other parts of the world very often doesn't exactly
56:37
Speaker 1: yield positive results for those concerned, or at least the
56:40
Speaker 1: majority of those concerned. And on that note, things being cyclical,
56:46
Speaker 1: I can't not do this. Let's go back 40 years
56:51
Speaker 1: and tell me about Cat's Eyes. And the theme of
56:59
Speaker 1: the Russians being the baddies, and not just that, but
57:04
Speaker 1: that the idea of a sort of arm's-length, quasi-governmental, shady,
57:11
Speaker 1: shadowy organisation operating sort of at the behest of the
57:15
Speaker 1: Home Office was glamorous and fun and all this kind
57:19
Speaker 1: of thing. But for people who don't know what I'm
57:22
Speaker 1: talking about, what am I talking about?
57:26
Speaker 2: Well, when I was a struggling, aspiring actress, I actually
57:33
Speaker 2: did get a break, which was three leads in the
57:40
Speaker 2: sort of British equivalent to Charlie's Angels, where you were
57:43
Speaker 2: undercover agents darting around with a gun. In those days,
57:48
Speaker 2: I was not interested in politics, so I had no
57:51
Speaker 2: stand against the bollocks that I was acting out. And
57:57
Speaker 2: I was just grateful that I actually had a job.
58:01
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, there was a woofer, willing
58:04
Speaker 2: worker on organic farms who was staying, who was doing
58:08
Speaker 2: a master's in AI. And it's like, oh, AI. And
58:17
Speaker 2: the sort of data centers, which for me are all
58:22
Speaker 2: about technology that is, making everything robotic and tracking us
58:29
Speaker 2: and surveying us and controlling us. And I really, I'm
58:36
Speaker 2: not comfortable in the world that is being created. God
58:43
Speaker 2: knows what my grandchildren will think of me the moment
58:46
Speaker 2: they have the education in their school. They'll probably think
58:50
Speaker 2: that I'm completely mad because they're probably cherish all of
58:54
Speaker 2: this tech but i think that it's it's it's very
58:59
Speaker 2: bad for all of us and i can't remember actually what.
59:02
Speaker 1: The question was it was quite a clever diversion but
59:06
Speaker 1: I don't think you were going to get away with
59:07
Speaker 1: it we were on track with Cat's Eyes and I
59:12
Speaker 1: don't want you to just dismiss it out of hand
59:14
Speaker 1: because although you may not have been engaged with the
59:16
Speaker 1: subject matter there first of all it looks like it
59:19
Speaker 1: must have been a lot of fun to have done,
59:21
Speaker 1: was it fun?
59:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, Leslie Ash and I had fun yeah, looked.
59:26
Speaker 1: Like a riot, okay so that's a tick in that
59:28
Speaker 1: box But seriously, though, this idea that people can absorb
59:34
Speaker 1: the propaganda about Ukraine, no. It's exactly the same. It's
59:38
Speaker 1: almost a carbon copy of what was being put forward
59:41
Speaker 1: through the storylines of Cat's Eyes, that it was this
59:44
Speaker 1: Russian bogeyman and we had the good guys, or in
59:48
Speaker 1: this instance, the good girls. And we're seeing exactly the
59:52
Speaker 1: same thing happen 40 years on. I mean, have you
59:55
Speaker 1: ever sort of sat there and thought, wow, that is amazing,
59:59
Speaker 1: that that Same storyline is just coming through in almost
1:00:03
Speaker 1: exactly the same way now.
1:00:06
Speaker 2: Well, I was just listening to something recently about George
1:00:10
Speaker 2: Orwell and how he saw from his work experience the
1:00:15
Speaker 2: lies that came out of the government and every part
1:00:21
Speaker 2: of our authorities is just one big lie. And I
1:00:27
Speaker 2: just think that the sooner... people wake up and seek
1:00:32
Speaker 2: the truth then maybe the sooner we'll be able to
1:00:38
Speaker 2: live peacefully together and we will make sure that we
1:00:42
Speaker 2: vote for people who really care about us and we
1:00:46
Speaker 2: don't accept the lies that I mean you know who
1:00:52
Speaker 2: is this guy Andy Burnham I mean have you seen
1:00:55
Speaker 2: who has funded him and who his you know, his cabinet,
1:01:01
Speaker 2: it's just like it's going to be more war. You know,
1:01:04
Speaker 2: he's saying that we are committed to funding Ukraine forever.
1:01:09
Speaker 2: It's like, what? Who in this country wants to go
1:01:12
Speaker 2: on funding a country that unfortunately we have used and
1:01:18
Speaker 2: we have used as cannon fodder so that we can
1:01:22
Speaker 2: bring down Putin, who I saw Russia when Yeltsin was
1:01:29
Speaker 2: in power, when Goldman Sachs was in charge of changing
1:01:33
Speaker 2: it from communism to capitalism. And it was destitute. It
1:01:37
Speaker 2: was absolutely terrifying. And Putin has actually helped them become
1:01:44
Speaker 2: a nation that, in Russia, they love Putin. Across the world,
1:01:49
Speaker 2: they love Putin. I am being told that we have
1:01:53
Speaker 2: to go to war with him. And there is some
1:01:56
Speaker 2: quote which you keep hearing, which is... oh, Putin said
1:02:00
Speaker 2: that he would love to recreate the USSR. And it's like, yeah,
1:02:04
Speaker 2: but there's another, he then immediately went on and said,
1:02:08
Speaker 2: but anybody who tried to do it would be completely crazy. Okay,
1:02:13
Speaker 2: he does not want to invade Europe. So there are lies.
1:02:17
Speaker 2: So for God's sake, in fact, there's a girl in
1:02:19
Speaker 2: this village who wants to be a pilot. And it's like,
1:02:23
Speaker 2: I said to her, do you really trust the government
1:02:27
Speaker 2: to put you in an airplane to bomb a country
1:02:30
Speaker 2: that is done wrong? She said, yes. And it's like, whoa.
1:02:36
Speaker 2: That's what we've got. We've got a propaganda machine which
1:02:39
Speaker 2: is inventing problems just so that we can undermine Putin,
1:02:47
Speaker 2: undermine Russia, because whenever we've interfered in another part of
1:02:53
Speaker 2: the world, because we want to steal their resources, Russia's
1:02:56
Speaker 2: gone in to help them. So whether that was in Venezuela,
1:03:02
Speaker 2: where in Trump's first term in office, he was in
1:03:05
Speaker 2: there trying to get their oil, there were the Russian airplanes.
1:03:10
Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, everybody recognizes that actually we're
1:03:15
Speaker 2: not right in the empire that we're carrying on of
1:03:19
Speaker 2: stealing people's resources. So it's the same in Syria. al-Assad
1:03:25
Speaker 2: was not evil In fact, Syria was a country of
1:03:32
Speaker 2: many different religions, small-scale farmers, brilliant culture, very okay, you know.
1:03:40
Speaker 2: Oh no, oh no. Our masters, which are the neocons
1:03:46
Speaker 2: or the Zionists, they want to undermine Syria and so
1:03:52
Speaker 2: we go and obliterate that country. And now what are they?
1:04:00
Speaker 2: You know, it's like what we've done in Libya, what
1:04:01
Speaker 2: we've done in Iraq, what we've done in Afghanistan. We
1:04:05
Speaker 2: are very dangerous and we need to say no to
1:04:09
Speaker 2: all these wars. We need to stop our taxes going
1:04:12
Speaker 2: into these wars. We need to absolutely categorically spread amongst
1:04:17
Speaker 2: our friends because the newspapers are part of the cabal.
1:04:20
Speaker 2: So they're not going to publish your article about it.
1:04:23
Speaker 2: So you need to talk to your friends. get information,
1:04:28
Speaker 2: send it to your friends. I have lovely friends who,
1:04:31
Speaker 2: if I have a conversation, I had a conversation the
1:04:33
Speaker 2: other day with somebody who's sort of related to the military.
1:04:37
Speaker 2: Couldn't believe what he was saying. Oh my God. So
1:04:40
Speaker 2: my friend sent him an article. And yeah, when I
1:04:44
Speaker 2: next saw him, he said, yeah, Jeffrey Sachs, he's not,
1:04:51
Speaker 2: he's totally incorrect. Well, Just listen to Jeffrey Sachs. I mean,
1:04:56
Speaker 2: he's somebody who is such an authority. He was the
1:05:00
Speaker 2: one who helped Poland become capitalist with a billion pounds
1:05:07
Speaker 2: given by the IMF. And he said, please, can we
1:05:09
Speaker 2: help Russia with a billion pounds to help them become capitalist?
1:05:14
Speaker 2: And the IMF, or whoever it was the money was
1:05:18
Speaker 2: going to come from, said, no, we want to bring
1:05:19
Speaker 2: Russia to its knees. Basically, We don't want anybody to
1:05:23
Speaker 2: interfere with our Western hegemony. And that is the sort
1:05:28
Speaker 2: of imperialist, thieving, really, I think, evil that we're spreading
1:05:36
Speaker 2: in the world. There's a very good book called The
1:05:38
Speaker 2: Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkin. And there
1:05:43
Speaker 2: are books like that, I don't read a lot, but
1:05:45
Speaker 2: actually books like that, there's a seminal that really show
1:05:48
Speaker 2: you what's going on in the world. Or William Engdahl,
1:05:51
Speaker 2: A Century of War. You know, that gives you a
1:05:55
Speaker 2: history that's the true history, not the lies.
1:05:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is so important. Now, you have a
1:06:03
Speaker 1: lot of knowledge, a lot of experience, which can give
1:06:06
Speaker 1: you a particular view of the world that's at times
1:06:10
Speaker 1: uncomfortable because you're seeing a lot that is not right.
1:06:14
Speaker 1: But there must be hope. And that's where we need
1:06:20
Speaker 1: to look. What are your bastions or your anchor points
1:06:26
Speaker 1: for hope?
1:06:29
Speaker 2: Well, my partner Alistair has a daughter that also lives
1:06:32
Speaker 2: in our community and she has a lot of hope.
1:06:36
Speaker 2: So sometimes I borrow her. Come on, Bonnie, tell the
1:06:41
Speaker 2: group why there is hope. Because I don't see any,
1:06:44
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I see 1984. I see us all together.
1:06:49
Speaker 2: little subservient slaves to the oligarchs that are actually buying
1:06:56
Speaker 2: the organic food. So, you know, they know that they're
1:07:00
Speaker 2: not going to suffer. But ordinary people, because they're sleepwalking
1:07:06
Speaker 2: into it, will be a part of the problem. So
1:07:12
Speaker 2: remember Wilson trying to find out who is aware. So
1:07:17
Speaker 2: he finds somebody sort of my age. What was it
1:07:20
Speaker 2: like before the George Orwell, the 1984? And that person,
1:07:26
Speaker 2: it's completely gone from their head. Because it was never
1:07:31
Speaker 2: there in the first place. So they'd have just found
1:07:33
Speaker 2: somebody who's like the people that I'm bumping into now,
1:07:37
Speaker 2: who just haven't thought about why there are adverts on
1:07:44
Speaker 2: their iPhone to do with what they had a conversation
1:07:47
Speaker 2: with somebody about... two hours earlier. They are being surveyed
1:07:54
Speaker 2: to be somebody to sell a product to. So that's
1:07:58
Speaker 2: all we will be. We will be work slaves, even
1:08:02
Speaker 2: though most of the work will be done by robots.
1:08:06
Speaker 2: But we will have sort of some terrible machine that
1:08:09
Speaker 2: we can sort of mouth what the machine is sort
1:08:12
Speaker 2: of trying to make us be. I mean, I am sorry,
1:08:17
Speaker 2: I am a pessimist. I'm very, very skeptical that we
1:08:21
Speaker 2: are going to survive this before I think maybe this
1:08:27
Speaker 2: earth is going to say, piss off. You know, you
1:08:31
Speaker 2: are not going to survive because you have been so
1:08:33
Speaker 2: poisoned by what you're eating, what you're breathing, what you're drinking,
1:08:41
Speaker 2: and how you're not taking any exercise that's making you happy. Happiness,
1:08:49
Speaker 2: I think, is very important. Laughing and sharing, but not
1:08:53
Speaker 2: under the influence of alcohol. You know, just just with
1:08:59
Speaker 2: each other you know the love and the compassion and
1:09:03
Speaker 2: the reciprocity and everything that people who do have a
1:09:08
Speaker 2: religion actually still see that but most of us don't
1:09:13
Speaker 2: and even the Zionists to be honest the Ashkenazis there
1:09:17
Speaker 2: isn't a religion it's just about stealing land I remember
1:09:20
Speaker 2: Bobby Kennedy Jr. saying, well, if Israel didn't exist, we'd
1:09:24
Speaker 2: have to invent one because we need an unsinkable aircraft
1:09:27
Speaker 2: carrier in the Middle East. Well, why? So that we
1:09:33
Speaker 2: can go on stealing oil? Why can't we pay a
1:09:36
Speaker 2: proper price for the oil if we need it? And actually,
1:09:40
Speaker 2: if it's too expensive, then we can go back to
1:09:43
Speaker 2: working with animals as long as we're kind to them.
1:09:48
Speaker 2: Imagine how happy we'd be if we had A horse
1:09:52
Speaker 2: and an oxen. I love animals. I love human beings, actually,
1:09:58
Speaker 2: obviously more, but I think all of us have a
1:10:03
Speaker 2: lot of love that we want to give, not the machines.
1:10:07
Speaker 1: Well, I tell you what, I've loved talking to you
1:10:09
Speaker 1: and I think I've made you sit in the sun
1:10:11
Speaker 1: for long enough. So you have promised that we're now
1:10:16
Speaker 1: allowed to eat some of this.
1:10:18
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:10:19
Speaker 1: However, before we do, tell me, because people will want
1:10:22
Speaker 1: to know, to where should they go to be able
1:10:26
Speaker 1: to get to your website, to the newsletter, that kind
1:10:29
Speaker 1: of thing?
1:10:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Farms Not Factories is about food and farming.
1:10:37
Speaker 2: And that's where you can sign up to the newsletter
1:10:40
Speaker 2: and you can see films which will inspire you to love,
1:10:44
Speaker 2: to see farmers as heroes because they feed us. and
1:10:49
Speaker 2: we've got to help them. And then there's also Forbidden
1:10:53
Speaker 2: Fruit and Veg. Forbidden because actually it's impossible to compete
1:10:58
Speaker 2: with manufactured food. But Forbidden Fruit and Veg, that website,
1:11:06
Speaker 2: if you live anywhere near Badminton, you can get a box,
1:11:10
Speaker 2: you can go to the kiosk at the end of
1:11:12
Speaker 2: our drive or the end of the path, and we
1:11:16
Speaker 2: take deliveries to Bristol every week.
1:11:19
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Okay. And there'll be links for all those things
1:11:22
Speaker 1: in the notes for this interview.
1:11:24
Speaker 2: Right.
1:11:24
Speaker 1: Tracy Worcester, thank you so much for talking to me.
1:11:26
Speaker 1: It's been an absolute joy. Pleasure. Good.