Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Front Row Seat: The Job That Never Leaves You | Jason Doyle

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Front Row Seat: The Job That Never Leaves You | Jason Doyle · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm your Host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand the murder of two Victoria police officers by
0:20
Speaker 2: that degenerate sex offender Desi Freeman has brought home just
0:24
Speaker 2: how dangerous policing on the front line can be.
0:27
Speaker 3: Two Victoria police officers shot dead after responding to a
0:31
Speaker 3: routine call out in Melbourne's southeast.
0:35
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a cliche for us in the
0:36
Speaker 2: media that we say thanks for your service when we
0:39
Speaker 2: interview serving an ex police. I kind of feel it's
0:43
Speaker 2: more accurate to say thanks for your sacrifice, and that
0:46
Speaker 2: goes for police families as well.
0:48
Speaker 3: Senior Constable Kevin King and Constable Josh Prestney remembered as
0:53
Speaker 3: dedicated officers.
0:54
Speaker 2: Hundreds of police line the streets as hears's pass. I
0:59
Speaker 2: was thinking about these issues in light of the end
1:01
Speaker 2: of the manhunt for Freeman, and I read a column
1:03
Speaker 2: in The Age newspaper written by a recently retired Victorian officer,
1:07
Speaker 2: Jason Doyle. Jason wrote very articulately about the pros and
1:11
Speaker 2: cons of a police career, the stress, the injuries, and
1:15
Speaker 2: the post traumatic stress disorder he suffered in the job.
1:18
Speaker 3: PTSD now the leading cause of medical discharge among Australian police.
1:23
Speaker 3: Advocates warn the system is failing officers who put their
1:27
Speaker 3: lives on the line.
1:29
Speaker 2: But also the moments of elation, joy and deep satisfaction
1:34
Speaker 2: in a life spent serving the public. Police officers live
1:37
Speaker 2: in a world of decision and dilemma, making decisions on
1:42
Speaker 2: scanned information, often faced with dilemmas trying to do their best.
1:46
Speaker 4: New figures reveal one in three officers will experience PTSD
1:51
Speaker 4: during their career, with many suffering in silence for years
1:54
Speaker 4: before seeking help.
1:58
Speaker 2: Jason writes that those life and death decisions never leave you,
2:02
Speaker 2: and he's coming to terms with life after police and
2:06
Speaker 2: he's kind of agreed to have a chat with me
2:08
Speaker 2: about his time in the job.
2:09
Speaker 5: You know, Jason, can I Adam thank you for that
2:13
Speaker 5: absolute pleasure. Mate.
2:14
Speaker 2: I think that's right when I say most people don't
2:17
Speaker 2: face the decisions and dilemmas that a police officer has
2:21
Speaker 2: to face every day, even in routine jobs.
2:27
Speaker 6: Yes, I think that's probably true, probably to the benefit
2:29
Speaker 6: of most people, that they don't have to do that.
2:32
Speaker 6: You know, I think anyone in emergency services and medical
2:35
Speaker 6: profession and that sort of thing would understand what I'm
2:38
Speaker 6: talking about. But yeah, you know, in the most dramatic
2:41
Speaker 6: of instances, you have, well not only the power of
2:44
Speaker 6: life and death by virtue of wearing a firearm on
2:47
Speaker 6: your hip, but the decisions you make, sometimes very instant
2:51
Speaker 6: decisions do affect the lives and deaths of other people potentially.
2:57
Speaker 2: And how good did you get at that process of
3:01
Speaker 2: making decisions? Particularly, It's like one of the young guys
3:04
Speaker 2: on the van go to domestics and things, just a
3:06
Speaker 2: domestic and I don't know what's going inside there. They're
3:09
Speaker 2: the first responders and they've got to make quick decisions.
3:13
Speaker 5: Is that something you can learn to be good at?
3:16
Speaker 1: Yes? I think so. You do get used to it
3:19
Speaker 1: in a way.
3:20
Speaker 6: You know that the guys going to a job on
3:23
Speaker 6: the van these days are doing it quite differently than
3:26
Speaker 6: perhaps I used to do in that well, LAE have
3:30
Speaker 6: to do a lot more planning these days, and they
3:34
Speaker 6: literally turn their recorders on and examine their thinking on
3:38
Speaker 6: the way to the job. The two five to one,
3:40
Speaker 6: the sergeant will most likely be giving on air directions.
3:44
Speaker 6: It's a bit of there, I say it ass covering
3:47
Speaker 6: as well for both sets of parties there. But it
3:50
Speaker 6: also it does bring out a little bit what you're
3:53
Speaker 6: going into. You know, does the people there have firearms,
3:57
Speaker 6: you know, anything known at the address, that sort of thing,
3:59
Speaker 6: Whereas really we used to just pile into things and
4:03
Speaker 6: that probably wasn't a very good proce. I do have
4:06
Speaker 6: a little anecdote about period of time I spent with
4:09
Speaker 6: a spot in America. I spent some time with the
4:12
Speaker 6: Columbus Police Department in the United States and had the
4:16
Speaker 6: privilege of.
4:17
Speaker 1: Working with the SWAT unit.
4:18
Speaker 6: I was supposed to be only right along officially, but
4:22
Speaker 6: the sergeant sort of took a locking to me and
4:25
Speaker 6: he ended uploading me up with firearms and radios and everything.
4:29
Speaker 6: And I was one of the crew and that would
4:31
Speaker 6: never happen anywhere outside of America, but I wasn't about.
4:33
Speaker 1: To say no.
4:34
Speaker 6: But at one stage, they went charging into a house
4:38
Speaker 6: after armed suspect, and it was actually me who pointed
4:42
Speaker 6: out to them that they had the wrong house. Like
4:44
Speaker 6: that took me about two minutes to work out, but
4:47
Speaker 6: they just didn't even take those two minutes. They just
4:50
Speaker 6: went a healthful leather in there. And that taught me
4:52
Speaker 6: a lot about just doing even some very rudimentary planning, because.
4:57
Speaker 2: Body worn camera that you raised a second ago really
5:01
Speaker 2: has changed the job. It could be called us covering,
5:04
Speaker 2: but it's also provides protection for officers too. When there
5:08
Speaker 2: is that he said, she said argument going on and
5:11
Speaker 2: you're in the Supreme Court and you're hearing your actions
5:15
Speaker 2: replayed back to you in slow motion, it must be
5:17
Speaker 2: company to have a visual record and audio as well.
5:21
Speaker 1: Certainly it does.
5:21
Speaker 6: I think it's ninety five percent in the favor of police,
5:25
Speaker 6: and I think every police officer has had the experience
5:29
Speaker 6: of being in court and prebody worn camera, and you know,
5:34
Speaker 6: you can really judge what's happening a lot better by
5:38
Speaker 6: seeing the.
5:38
Speaker 1: Real time vision of it.
5:40
Speaker 6: And it also does work to show how quickly things
5:44
Speaker 6: develop as well. You often just don't have the time
5:47
Speaker 6: to have a detailed plan.
5:49
Speaker 1: You just have to go with what you think is
5:51
Speaker 1: right at the time.
5:53
Speaker 5: Well, that's right.
5:54
Speaker 2: I'll put a link to the story you wrote for
5:56
Speaker 2: the Age in the show notes to this podcast. But
5:59
Speaker 2: I thought it was the timing was interesting. You've written
6:02
Speaker 2: it in the same week that Desi Freeman I was
6:05
Speaker 2: brought in by Victoria Police shot in action. There what
6:09
Speaker 2: motivated you to write about these life and death decisions
6:13
Speaker 2: in light of that event.
6:15
Speaker 1: Well, actually I didn't.
6:17
Speaker 6: I know that's the premise, but I actually wrote it
6:19
Speaker 6: in February and the age had a little more in
6:24
Speaker 6: her arm to deal with in the preceding few weeks,
6:27
Speaker 6: so they were just waiting for things to cool down.
6:29
Speaker 6: But then when that guy who I won't name, was
6:32
Speaker 6: dealt with, they felt that was the right time to
6:36
Speaker 6: run the piece, so they contacted me and I just
6:40
Speaker 6: added a few extra comments, and in fact, I was
6:44
Speaker 6: very happy to write the extra comments.
6:45
Speaker 1: I felt it made.
6:46
Speaker 6: It a little bit stronger, a little bit better, And
6:48
Speaker 6: then they ran it the very next day.
6:50
Speaker 1: So it was just timing.
6:53
Speaker 2: Right because most police officers have been in the position
6:58
Speaker 2: of Neil Thompson and Vadam de hot Art, where you're
7:02
Speaker 2: going to serve a warrant it's a routine matter. But
7:05
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as a routine matter in police work.
7:09
Speaker 5: There's always that.
7:10
Speaker 2: Potential for something to go wrong, and it can go
7:13
Speaker 2: wrong catastrophically.
7:14
Speaker 6: What's been your experience, Oh yeah, I can talk all afternoon.
7:18
Speaker 1: I think about that.
7:19
Speaker 6: I've had some times. You know, you go to a
7:22
Speaker 6: job you don't really know. Even if you do all
7:25
Speaker 6: those checks and things, you don't really know what's going
7:28
Speaker 6: to happen. I probably the most dramatic instance in my
7:32
Speaker 6: career I can say, probably off the top of my head,
7:35
Speaker 6: was just going to a welfare check and it turned
7:38
Speaker 6: out the guy wanted suicide by cop, and he charged
7:41
Speaker 6: at us with a knife. Unfortunately, I guess I did
7:45
Speaker 6: the right thing and didn't sort of go straight in.
7:48
Speaker 6: I did linger outside, had a bit of distance until
7:51
Speaker 6: I worked out what was happening, and then he charged
7:54
Speaker 6: about midnight, and he charged out of the black night
7:56
Speaker 6: with a knife, but we had enough time to retreat
7:59
Speaker 6: and we ended up arresting him safely.
8:03
Speaker 1: And I'll never forget the fury.
8:06
Speaker 6: And he threw at me when he was cuffed and
8:08
Speaker 6: being put in the van, that I didn't shoot him.
8:10
Speaker 1: But that's the kind of thing.
8:12
Speaker 6: I've also been on the step of a house where
8:14
Speaker 6: someone produced a machete. It's really suddenly, just completely out
8:19
Speaker 6: of the blue. And that's the thing. I know other
8:21
Speaker 6: policemen who have been murdered when serving summons as well,
8:25
Speaker 6: so it can happen at any time, and he just
8:28
Speaker 6: for any young police don't know, be listening. Just always
8:31
Speaker 6: take care to expect the unexpected.
8:35
Speaker 2: Well that's a good point, because you go to the academy,
8:37
Speaker 2: you get trained, it gets drilled into you, you do
8:40
Speaker 2: refresher courses and so on and so forth. But in
8:42
Speaker 2: that heat of the moment, you do have to rely
8:45
Speaker 2: on your own innate judgment. Is that fair to say
8:48
Speaker 2: that training can't take you all the way and can't
8:51
Speaker 2: keep you safe all the time.
8:53
Speaker 6: Yeah, well training is good, but we don't really do
8:56
Speaker 6: enough of it. It really comes from experience out in
8:59
Speaker 6: the fields.
9:01
Speaker 1: You know.
9:01
Speaker 6: I never really until right at the end of my career,
9:03
Speaker 6: I never really left the road. I probably accumulated a
9:06
Speaker 6: lot of experience in some fairly busy stations, so you
9:11
Speaker 6: do get the guidance from senior offices, but often it's
9:15
Speaker 6: just the van creu there initially, and sometimes a sargeant
9:18
Speaker 6: will come along I've needed, you know, I certainly as
9:20
Speaker 6: a sergeant, I certainly tried to be a back up
9:22
Speaker 6: to my.
9:23
Speaker 1: Crews whenever I could.
9:24
Speaker 6: But yeah, ultimately you've got to use your own nouse,
9:27
Speaker 6: your own judgment, your own experience, and I guess one
9:31
Speaker 6: of the issues we have increasingly in Victoria is growing
9:35
Speaker 6: in experience of police. You know, we have lost a
9:39
Speaker 6: lot of experience recently, and I do hope those younger
9:43
Speaker 6: guys are learning on the job effectively.
9:47
Speaker 5: Well, I think that's so true.
9:48
Speaker 2: It's true and almost every state that there's a high
9:50
Speaker 2: attrition rate, they're struggling to keep people in the job,
9:54
Speaker 2: and particularly sergeants.
9:55
Speaker 5: Isn't that that's a.
9:56
Speaker 2: Really big issue where you know, a lot of experience
9:59
Speaker 2: walks out the door when a sergeant quits, and we're
10:02
Speaker 2: seeing it increasingly. And sergeants, from what I've learned, are
10:07
Speaker 2: the ones that not just guide the job, but they
10:10
Speaker 2: also run interference for their constables on the road when
10:13
Speaker 2: things go wrong, and that's a really critical mentoring sort
10:17
Speaker 2: of role.
10:18
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll probably biased because that's what I was in
10:21
Speaker 6: the end. That's sort of what I wanted to be,
10:24
Speaker 6: and I didn't ever want to go any further. But
10:26
Speaker 6: I think the sergeants are the most important job in
10:29
Speaker 6: the Victoria Police or in any police organization. They are
10:34
Speaker 6: still on the road, but they have hopefully got that
10:38
Speaker 6: extra experience, the extra knowledge. I do think it's the
10:41
Speaker 6: experience really, it's not even sort of a knowledge or
10:44
Speaker 6: of any level of intelligence, certainly not in my case.
10:48
Speaker 6: But you're always trying to think what might happen if
10:51
Speaker 6: then thinking if this happens, then what else will happen?
10:54
Speaker 1: You know, if he does that, what will we do?
10:56
Speaker 6: And you've got to try and be three or four
10:58
Speaker 6: steps ahead of the situation in front of you, and
11:01
Speaker 6: that I always tried to do that. I don't know
11:04
Speaker 6: how effective was, but you know, I was always trying
11:07
Speaker 6: to look after the troops and sometimes got in trouble.
11:10
Speaker 6: But yeah, that's just part of the course, I think. So, Yeah,
11:14
Speaker 6: the sergeants are walking out the door, that is a
11:17
Speaker 6: big problem. I think even senior Connie is walking out
11:21
Speaker 6: the door is a big problem because they're the senior
11:24
Speaker 6: one on the van, so they're often the one making
11:27
Speaker 6: the judgment call at the time.
11:29
Speaker 2: Right, you mentioned earlier the two five to one sergeant.
11:32
Speaker 2: He basically sits in the office in a perfect world,
11:35
Speaker 2: directs the troop, directs resources.
11:37
Speaker 5: But it's not always as simple as that.
11:39
Speaker 2: Often you don't have enough troops, se haven't got enough resources,
11:42
Speaker 2: and you find yourself having to go out on the
11:44
Speaker 2: road and actually lead jobs as well.
11:46
Speaker 5: Just explain what that job's all about.
11:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you sounded out pretty well.
11:50
Speaker 6: The two five to one is otherwise known as the
11:53
Speaker 6: patrol sergeant, so he has two three four vans. Technically
11:58
Speaker 6: also has the highway patrol under supervision as well, although
12:01
Speaker 6: there's often a Highway Patrol sergeant as well, but technically
12:05
Speaker 6: Highway Patrol as well, and in the crime desk and
12:08
Speaker 6: so forth ancillary units. But they do have a very
12:12
Speaker 6: difficult job because I can't really speak for quieter station,
12:15
Speaker 6: so I've never really been at any. But you get
12:19
Speaker 6: the jobs you get handed over from the outgoing sergeant.
12:23
Speaker 6: Then you have to make your own judgments about you know,
12:26
Speaker 6: you might have ten jobs on hold, so which ones
12:29
Speaker 6: do you do? You might allocate some jobs, but then
12:32
Speaker 6: another big job comes in, so that takes precedence, and
12:35
Speaker 6: as you say, probably ideally the sergeant is supervising things
12:40
Speaker 6: well these days with a phone or a device of
12:42
Speaker 6: some kind and watching everything unfold. But that was really
12:46
Speaker 6: rarely the case for me, particularly it's a broad meadows.
12:49
Speaker 1: I found myself out on the road pretty much constantly.
12:53
Speaker 6: That was probably my preference as well, because I'm not
12:55
Speaker 6: a very technical person, so I found all these tablets
12:59
Speaker 6: and devices a bit mystifying, but there's probably my philosophy
13:03
Speaker 6: as well. If the needed back up, and they often did,
13:07
Speaker 6: then I would like to go along and not peer
13:11
Speaker 6: over their shoulders so much as just be that person
13:14
Speaker 6: to help out if.
13:15
Speaker 1: They needed it.
13:16
Speaker 6: But yeah, you'd often be on the radio, you know,
13:18
Speaker 6: listening to other jobs while you're at the first one.
13:21
Speaker 6: You might have to go to three or four in
13:23
Speaker 6: a shift, and yeah, it was pretty demanding. But the
13:25
Speaker 6: thing is you were also making the decisions, and probably
13:28
Speaker 6: increasingly these days the van freers would defer to the
13:31
Speaker 6: sargeant to make the decision, whereas the old days they'd
13:34
Speaker 6: probably be a bit more independent. But that's just the
13:36
Speaker 6: way things seem to have evolved. So yeah, it was
13:40
Speaker 6: a tricky job. You know, you had to again make
13:42
Speaker 6: those decisions, sometimes with limited information, and just do the
13:46
Speaker 6: best thing you could. I found missing people to be
13:49
Speaker 6: one of the most difficult things, as well as family violence.
13:53
Speaker 6: But missing persons you could devote all your resources for
13:57
Speaker 6: a whole shift and still not find them. But you know,
14:00
Speaker 6: there was always the potential that that could end sourly,
14:03
Speaker 6: So that was always a tax on my brain.
14:07
Speaker 2: Right, and you talk about broad Meadows where we've seen
14:09
Speaker 2: a lot in recent years, the aggravated burglaries, young people
14:13
Speaker 2: stealing vehicles, going joy riding. And suddenly you've got all
14:17
Speaker 2: the resources. You'll be out on the road, you'll have
14:19
Speaker 2: your tablet on your lap, you'll have the video from
14:22
Speaker 2: the flur camera, from the chopper, You'll have.
14:24
Speaker 5: A range of offices.
14:26
Speaker 2: You'll be trying to deploy resources as you go. Talk
14:29
Speaker 2: about decision making, I mean, how do you learn stuff
14:32
Speaker 2: like that?
14:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
14:36
Speaker 6: I don't have a magic answer here, but I'll use
14:39
Speaker 6: that word again, experience. If you've been around a bit,
14:42
Speaker 6: I guess you just learned that judgment. Hopefully I learned it, okay,
14:47
Speaker 6: you know, and people do it differently with marshaling resources, Unfortunately,
14:50
Speaker 6: we don't have as much as we need. We never
14:52
Speaker 6: had enough resources. You could have twice as many vans
14:55
Speaker 6: on the road. Meadows is actually an interesting situation because
15:00
Speaker 6: it's got Sunbury and the patch and Sunbury. It was
15:02
Speaker 6: almost to me or Thomas to bring the Sunbury to
15:06
Speaker 6: broad Meadows because then you end up there, You've got
15:09
Speaker 6: a half an hour trip for someone to deal with Sunbury.
15:11
Speaker 6: So that was always in the back of a sergeant's mind.
15:15
Speaker 6: But you just do the best you can. And yeah,
15:18
Speaker 6: mostly the bosses and inspectors were pretty good about it.
15:22
Speaker 1: Sometimes not.
15:23
Speaker 6: I did a couple a couple of whacks for some
15:25
Speaker 6: of the decisions I made. But you have to back
15:27
Speaker 6: yourself and accept that you're not always going to make
15:31
Speaker 6: the perfect decision, but you just have to do the
15:33
Speaker 6: best you can with what's available.
15:35
Speaker 5: Well, I think the hardest.
15:36
Speaker 2: Thing in that sort of a role is, yes, you
15:39
Speaker 2: can fuck up one day, but you've got to frond
15:40
Speaker 2: up the next day again and start freshed and eraise
15:44
Speaker 2: that memory.
15:46
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, hopefully you don't eraise the memory, because that's
15:48
Speaker 6: all part of that experience word. Again, you know, if
15:51
Speaker 6: you make a mistake, hopefully you're going to learn from it.
15:53
Speaker 6: And the thing is really a yes or no answer.
15:57
Speaker 6: You know, you've got to be guided by the law
15:59
Speaker 6: obviously and policy, but they still give you a lot
16:03
Speaker 6: of scope for how you actually respond to something and
16:06
Speaker 6: what resources you use and that sort of thing. So
16:09
Speaker 6: there's no yes or no answer in that, but you
16:12
Speaker 6: just learned from it. Look, I won't be holier than now.
16:15
Speaker 6: A couple of times I've been pretty bitter about some
16:18
Speaker 6: of the reactions I've got from things I've done. I've
16:21
Speaker 6: actually mentioned one in the article where I confronted a
16:24
Speaker 6: guy who shot at and then stabbed his girlfriend, and.
16:29
Speaker 1: That was very much one of those life.
16:31
Speaker 6: And death decisions you spoke about at the opening, and
16:34
Speaker 6: it was a situation that was unfolding in real time,
16:38
Speaker 6: very dramatically, and I could have just done what the
16:41
Speaker 6: guys on the radio were saying was just to hold off.
16:44
Speaker 6: But he was telling me over the phone because I
16:46
Speaker 6: was talking to him, that he was going to kill
16:48
Speaker 6: this girl, and I just thought, I can't let that
16:51
Speaker 6: happen while I'm just standing by.
16:53
Speaker 1: I've just got to go and talk to him. And
16:56
Speaker 1: fortunately I was able to talk him down.
16:58
Speaker 6: But I was both nominated for a Bravery Award and
17:01
Speaker 6: criticized at the same time, which is interesting.
17:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fine line, isn't it. In fact, even
17:07
Speaker 2: the whole valor awards system in policing. I mean, it's
17:10
Speaker 2: a fine line between getting that valor badge and doing
17:13
Speaker 2: something catastrophic that you could even be prosecuted over. In fact,
17:17
Speaker 2: I think maybe it's the wrong thing. Maybe we shouldn't
17:20
Speaker 2: award valor badges. There should be good judgment badges, good
17:23
Speaker 2: decision making badges.
17:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure what I can say about that.
17:30
Speaker 1: It's been a bit difficult for me.
17:31
Speaker 6: That job actually is the cause of a bit of
17:34
Speaker 6: a grief for me still. But I also would say
17:38
Speaker 6: that it's also one of the greatest days I've ever
17:40
Speaker 6: had because having played a bit of footy and played
17:43
Speaker 6: in a premiership. I remember at the time when I
17:45
Speaker 6: literally carried the girl in my arms out of the
17:48
Speaker 6: flat that she was in, and I remember thinking then
17:52
Speaker 6: that this was like winning a premiership. I just absolutely
17:55
Speaker 6: elated that I was able to get that girl out
17:57
Speaker 6: of there.
17:59
Speaker 2: As you say, you probably didn't do what the voices
18:01
Speaker 2: on the radio were telling you in that situation. You
18:03
Speaker 2: should have waited then the go to get there. And
18:06
Speaker 2: we did a podcast with Lee Wallahan, who's one of
18:08
Speaker 2: your negotiators.
18:09
Speaker 5: Victoria plays terrific guide.
18:10
Speaker 2: I think he would probably agree with what you did
18:13
Speaker 2: because you're on the ground, you got to judge it,
18:15
Speaker 2: you And how would you feel if you're waiting for
18:18
Speaker 2: the next to arrive and she ends up getting murdered
18:21
Speaker 2: in front of your eyes?
18:23
Speaker 1: Yes? Well, yes or no? Answers. That's right.
18:26
Speaker 6: I would have preferred to leave it to the negotiators,
18:29
Speaker 6: but yeah, given the guy was literally telling me he
18:31
Speaker 6: was going to kill her, I just felt I couldn't
18:34
Speaker 6: do that. So yeah, I was in a very very
18:37
Speaker 6: difficult position. But I think in the army particularly, it's
18:40
Speaker 6: called making the d an officer has to make the decision,
18:43
Speaker 6: and I was just in that position. I had to
18:45
Speaker 6: make a call one way or the other, and I
18:47
Speaker 6: made that call. So yeah, senior officers turned up later
18:50
Speaker 6: and one of them said you we recognize for your
18:52
Speaker 6: actions today. But then very shortly after that I was
18:56
Speaker 6: quite criticized. But anyway, I did what I thought was
19:00
Speaker 6: right and it turned out okay.
19:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's all you can go on at the
19:03
Speaker 2: end of the day, isn't it. But you're right about
19:04
Speaker 2: the fact that that job left you with a lot
19:06
Speaker 2: of stress and some grief.
19:08
Speaker 5: You have nightmares about it.
19:09
Speaker 2: But I mean the listeners will say, well, hey, he
19:11
Speaker 2: won the premiership, he saved the life of the woman.
19:14
Speaker 2: You know what could possibly have gone wrong? Why is
19:17
Speaker 2: it giving you nightmares?
19:20
Speaker 6: It's just the you know what if it hadn't gone right,
19:24
Speaker 6: you know, I even knew at the time, and I
19:27
Speaker 6: walked up because I put acording in place. I was
19:30
Speaker 6: fiftee hundred meters back, So as I walked up, I
19:33
Speaker 6: knew that I was going to be crucified if this
19:36
Speaker 6: went wrong. I was quite aware of it, but I
19:38
Speaker 6: just had to do it anyway, just because of those circumstances.
19:41
Speaker 6: So I guess replaying that a thousand times in my
19:45
Speaker 6: mind is something that has here caused me a lot
19:47
Speaker 6: of stress over the years, but I still do say
19:50
Speaker 6: it's one of the best memories I have as well. So, yeah,
19:54
Speaker 6: that's a tricky one.
19:56
Speaker 5: Isn't that. And that's so typical of these situations.
19:59
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes these PTSD responses are made much
20:03
Speaker 2: worse by the lack of support from the hierarchy. I've
20:07
Speaker 2: seen it from service people telling you their stories over
20:09
Speaker 2: the years as well, where they don't feel supported, where
20:13
Speaker 2: they put themselves on the line. That is a source
20:16
Speaker 2: of great stress and clinical depression as well.
20:18
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's not just the physical danger, you know.
20:23
Speaker 6: I guess I was in some physical danger that day,
20:25
Speaker 6: But yeah, I know a lot of guys do feel
20:29
Speaker 6: let down by management. I've never really what I just
20:32
Speaker 6: said notwithstanding, I've tried not to wallow in that too much.
20:36
Speaker 6: I think most of the senior officers I know are
20:39
Speaker 6: trying to do the job as best they can as well.
20:41
Speaker 6: I mean, they're under a lot of pressure from above,
20:43
Speaker 6: even right up to the chief Commissioner. I think here
20:46
Speaker 6: she doesn't have as much of a free hand as
20:48
Speaker 6: people think. But everybody you know I've faced as well.
20:51
Speaker 6: I've made decisions as a sergeant or even a senior
20:54
Speaker 6: connie on the van, and people under me may not
20:56
Speaker 6: have necessarily agreed or understood why those decisions were made,
21:01
Speaker 6: but that's just something that comes with higher rank and responsibility.
21:06
Speaker 6: You're there to make a decision. You have to make
21:08
Speaker 6: a decision. The worst thing you can do is not
21:10
Speaker 6: make one a lot of times. So I know a
21:13
Speaker 6: lot of guys are bitter about different aspects of this
21:16
Speaker 6: and that, and I guess I can be too at times,
21:19
Speaker 6: But you know, I prefer to look forward and look back.
21:24
Speaker 2: I think it really makes police officers, soldiers' merchency service workers,
21:29
Speaker 2: makes them different because they have lived in this world
21:31
Speaker 2: of decision and dilemma. Most people in their normal lives
21:34
Speaker 2: don't have to do this. They live within established patterns,
21:39
Speaker 2: and they and the things are predictable. They cross when
21:41
Speaker 2: the green man says, and stop when it goes red,
21:44
Speaker 2: you know. But police officers don't have that luxury. And
21:48
Speaker 2: you know, even just the question of death, most people
21:50
Speaker 2: don't see death. You must have lost count how many
21:53
Speaker 2: bodies that you've seen in your career.
21:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably like most people. I did. Can't count one stage,
21:59
Speaker 1: but that quickly went out the window.
22:01
Speaker 6: Obviously, I was highway patrolled for seven ninth great and yeah,
22:06
Speaker 6: you do see a lot of smashed up bodies at collisions,
22:08
Speaker 6: and I wrote about one of them. There's others I
22:11
Speaker 6: didn't write about obviously that articles nine hundred words.
22:14
Speaker 1: That you can't put a career in nine hundred words.
22:16
Speaker 1: But you do see a.
22:18
Speaker 6: Lot of industrial accidents, saying a few murders around the
22:22
Speaker 6: northern suburbs. And again, as I've written, it was the
22:27
Speaker 6: suicides that really got to me.
22:29
Speaker 1: A lot of people.
22:30
Speaker 6: Were reasonably dismissive of suicides, I have to say, just
22:34
Speaker 6: saying you know, well, that's what they chose to do,
22:36
Speaker 6: and you know, they don't care about their parents or whatever.
22:40
Speaker 6: I saw it as a real desperation and they must
22:42
Speaker 6: have just been at the end of their tether, and
22:45
Speaker 6: it's a terrible solution. For whatever reason, these people did that,
22:50
Speaker 6: and we weren't dealing with them so much as dealing
22:52
Speaker 6: with the grief of the relatives.
22:54
Speaker 1: And I went to a.
22:55
Speaker 6: Few whereas a young person like eighteen or less. I
23:00
Speaker 6: think the youngest was only about twelve. It was just terrible,
23:03
Speaker 6: Like having to deal with the grief of that whole
23:06
Speaker 6: family was something that really you wouldn't wish on anyone.
23:11
Speaker 6: It was just appalling, and to have to do that
23:14
Speaker 6: quite a few times, I must admit that alone nearly
23:17
Speaker 6: pracked me at the end. I as I wrote in
23:20
Speaker 6: the article, that I was starting to absorb their pain
23:24
Speaker 6: and I became and still am, like super emotional, whereas
23:29
Speaker 6: before I was sort of like a mister Spock out
23:32
Speaker 6: of Star Trek, just sort of denying the emotions of
23:34
Speaker 6: everything and trying to tide it away and keep equilibrium, so,
23:40
Speaker 6: you know, good things or bad things.
23:41
Speaker 1: I tried to treat it all the same.
23:43
Speaker 6: But that probably hurt my psyche over a long period
23:47
Speaker 6: of time, and it was probably those suicides that did
23:51
Speaker 6: it more than anything else.
23:53
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, this ability to dissociate is a fascinating
23:57
Speaker 2: skill that you guys have. And I was talking to
24:00
Speaker 2: an Army medic special Forces medic who became so dissociated
24:05
Speaker 2: from what he was seeing he ended up taking a
24:07
Speaker 2: lot of ketamine to help him do that so we
24:10
Speaker 2: could finish the day no matter what he's he could
24:12
Speaker 2: dissociate at night and then turn up in the morning
24:14
Speaker 2: again and do it once more. And obviously you didn't
24:17
Speaker 2: have that outlet. You've got to be resilient. You've got
24:21
Speaker 2: to be able to deal with these things, and you
24:23
Speaker 2: can't give in to some of the normal emotions that
24:27
Speaker 2: most of us would expect to have, because how do
24:30
Speaker 2: you do your job if you, as you say, begin
24:32
Speaker 2: to absorb this.
24:33
Speaker 6: Yeah, we do have to be resilient, but I think
24:37
Speaker 6: the job is probably harder than we think. I have
24:40
Speaker 6: to say that most guys, from a lot of guys,
24:43
Speaker 6: seem to handle it okay. My own brother was a
24:46
Speaker 6: policeman for many, many years and talk to him. I
24:50
Speaker 6: have never talked about it all that much, but he
24:52
Speaker 6: seems to be absolutely fine with no issues from his
24:56
Speaker 6: extended service.
24:57
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of guys are the same.
24:59
Speaker 6: But I guess we're not all the same, and I
25:02
Speaker 6: was probably more suppressing my emotions and dealing with them,
25:06
Speaker 6: and that's probably the thing that I didn't do well
25:09
Speaker 6: and didn't deal with the warning signs. So you know,
25:12
Speaker 6: I was diagnosed back in twenty eighteen with PTSD, but
25:16
Speaker 6: I really didn't do anything about it. And I think
25:19
Speaker 6: I took three or four days off just to leave,
25:22
Speaker 6: maybe not even sickly, but yeah, that's about all I took,
25:26
Speaker 6: I think, and I just came back to the job
25:29
Speaker 6: and tried to sort of change my approach a little bit,
25:32
Speaker 6: and that works for a while, but ultimately I was
25:34
Speaker 6: still just suppressing everything and not dealing with it. And
25:39
Speaker 6: I must say I didn't actually have any night I
25:41
Speaker 6: means for a long long time. There was Eventually I
25:44
Speaker 6: started to develop anxiety and started to feel really nervous
25:49
Speaker 6: as I was going to work, just wondering what was
25:51
Speaker 6: going to happen today. I never really not wanted to
25:54
Speaker 6: go to work. I always loved my job. I was
25:56
Speaker 6: very very committed to it. But I started to feel
25:59
Speaker 6: nervous going to work, and then I started to sleep
26:03
Speaker 6: very well, and then I'd got crushed by these nightmares.
26:07
Speaker 1: And that was the end of me really.
26:10
Speaker 2: Well, I think when the sleeping starts to go off track,
26:12
Speaker 2: then everything else follows. And as you said, you were
26:16
Speaker 2: diagnosed in twenty eighteen, but you had symptoms and warning
26:20
Speaker 2: signs for some time before that.
26:21
Speaker 5: How did they begin?
26:25
Speaker 1: Well, the first time I really remembered.
26:28
Speaker 6: I mean, there were individual jobs that affected me, certainly,
26:31
Speaker 6: if I can be a little bit brutal, I did
26:32
Speaker 6: go to a job where I tried to save a
26:35
Speaker 6: lady and couldn't save her. And it wasn't until I
26:39
Speaker 6: went to the change room and took off my pants
26:42
Speaker 6: and my socks when I did I realize that I'd
26:45
Speaker 6: actually been kneeling in her blood, and the blood had
26:47
Speaker 6: soaked through my pants.
26:48
Speaker 1: And my socks were wet.
26:50
Speaker 6: All that kind of thing, and that was a horrible,
26:54
Speaker 6: horrible moment.
26:54
Speaker 1: I've never forgotten that.
26:56
Speaker 6: But the biggest one probably was on the tenth anniversary
27:00
Speaker 6: of Black Saturday, I got.
27:01
Speaker 1: To a fire, of all things.
27:04
Speaker 6: Driving back from that in the police car, I just
27:07
Speaker 6: had these waves of memories hit me like waves at
27:11
Speaker 6: a beach, and that had never happened before. I think
27:14
Speaker 6: is that I'd just about forgotten. Obviously, my brain hadn't
27:17
Speaker 6: actually forgotten them. I had to pull over the car.
27:20
Speaker 6: I don't know what the young constable beside me was thinking,
27:23
Speaker 6: but I had to.
27:24
Speaker 1: End the shift.
27:25
Speaker 6: And that was one of the biggest earliest signs that
27:30
Speaker 6: I probably wasn't okay.
27:32
Speaker 1: But again, took a couple of days off and just
27:35
Speaker 1: sort of kept going.
27:35
Speaker 6: But that was that should have been a big sign,
27:39
Speaker 6: but I didn't do anything about it.
27:41
Speaker 2: Because you're talking about Black Saturday of February two thousand
27:43
Speaker 2: and nine, one hundred and seventy three deaths, four hundred
27:46
Speaker 2: and fourteen injuries. You're in the thick of the response
27:51
Speaker 2: to that emergency.
27:53
Speaker 4: On February seventh, two thousand and nine, the Black Saturday
27:57
Speaker 4: bushfires caused widespread devastation across the state of Victoria, caming
28:02
Speaker 4: the lives of one hundred and seventy three people.
28:07
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was up there at the time. I talked
28:10
Speaker 6: too much about that. I wasn't actually the firefront, but
28:13
Speaker 6: I was on duty in the area, and afterwards we
28:17
Speaker 6: were there doing patrols. But the worst thing there, one
28:21
Speaker 6: of my own friends was killed in Black Saturday, and
28:23
Speaker 6: they have all people to be handed the report of
28:26
Speaker 6: her death. It was me, and that I suffered a
28:29
Speaker 6: bit of a breakdown at that time as well, just
28:32
Speaker 6: with that news. But again, like so many other times,
28:36
Speaker 6: when I got ran by the truck, when I got
28:39
Speaker 6: strangled by the mental patient, all these things, you just
28:43
Speaker 6: kept going. And that's what everybody did. I'm not unique.
28:47
Speaker 6: Many many stories would be the same. You just got
28:50
Speaker 6: on with it. I probably had a fairly busy career,
28:53
Speaker 6: I suppose, and I never left the front line except
28:56
Speaker 6: right at the end when I was trying to come
28:57
Speaker 6: back to the job. But these things obviously were impacting me.
29:01
Speaker 6: But I just tried to get on with it and
29:03
Speaker 6: tried to be tough. I guess it all caught up
29:06
Speaker 6: with me at the end.
29:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when you offered much support, I mean,
29:10
Speaker 2: it's a bit of a cliche. I wasn't supported, but
29:12
Speaker 2: it sounds like you weren't fully ready to accept the support.
29:16
Speaker 5: And on some level, is it a fair statement.
29:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
29:21
Speaker 6: I just had this image of myself as a fairly
29:24
Speaker 6: tough guy, and I've always been a fairly empathetic, sort
29:28
Speaker 6: of sensitive kind of person. But you know, I thought, no,
29:31
Speaker 6: this is not what policing is. You can't go sobbing
29:34
Speaker 6: to a psych every time you see a dead body
29:37
Speaker 6: or whatever. And after Black Saturday, we're offered some counseling
29:41
Speaker 6: and I always brushed it off. And I think if
29:45
Speaker 6: there's one thing they could maybe change is that these
29:48
Speaker 6: things should be actually be mandatory. It shouldn't be up
29:51
Speaker 6: to the individual officer to come when they feel they
29:54
Speaker 6: need help.
29:54
Speaker 1: It's probably too late by then. You know, anybody who
29:57
Speaker 1: goes through a.
29:57
Speaker 6: Critical mis should actually be assess, and you like the
30:02
Speaker 6: cumulative trauma assess more thoroughly than it probably is. I
30:08
Speaker 6: don't know I've changed, There's been changes in a couple
30:10
Speaker 6: of years since I've been off the road, but that's
30:12
Speaker 6: probably the issue. I felt that it was offered. I felt, no,
30:17
Speaker 6: I'm not going to do that. Nobody else I knew
30:19
Speaker 6: was doing it. You just got on with it. So
30:22
Speaker 6: it is partly my fault. But there's probably been a
30:24
Speaker 6: couple of times when I reached out for help, said
30:27
Speaker 6: I was struggling a bit. Maybe it did es quite
30:30
Speaker 6: those words, but there was one time when I could
30:33
Speaker 6: feel myself getting angry on the job, and having previously
30:36
Speaker 6: been a very placid person, and even on the job,
30:39
Speaker 6: I was always happy to talk something out and not
30:42
Speaker 6: get angry. But I was starting to get really angry
30:45
Speaker 6: with people on the job at a drop of a hat.
30:47
Speaker 6: And I did go to my supervisors at one stage
30:50
Speaker 6: and told them that, but they just said, oh, no,
30:53
Speaker 6: that's normal people. Can you get angry with people? And
30:55
Speaker 6: I was trying to say, yeah, but that's not me.
30:57
Speaker 6: You might do it, but that's not what I've done before,
31:00
Speaker 6: but that was dismissed. So that was something that someone
31:03
Speaker 6: should have picked up on that because I was directly
31:06
Speaker 6: coming and telling them what I was feeling, but it
31:08
Speaker 6: wasn't acted on.
31:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in the end, they took you off the road,
31:13
Speaker 2: but you didn't want to quit.
31:14
Speaker 6: I took myself off the road. The main reason was
31:18
Speaker 6: actually just what I said.
31:19
Speaker 1: It was.
31:20
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was having lack of sleep and nightmares and
31:22
Speaker 6: all this sort of stuff, But there was also some
31:24
Speaker 6: dreams in their very violent dreams, and I felt I
31:29
Speaker 6: was a risk to the public. So I didn't want
31:32
Speaker 6: to go to work with a gun on my hip
31:34
Speaker 6: and anger, an internal anger problem like I seemed to
31:38
Speaker 6: be having. So I took myself off the road and
31:40
Speaker 6: I stopped working, and I thought it would be a
31:43
Speaker 6: few weeks, but the nightmares just debilitated me. I was
31:46
Speaker 6: like a vegetable sometimes, you know, you have two or
31:48
Speaker 6: three of them at night or a week and it
31:52
Speaker 6: gets to the stage I still get it where I
31:54
Speaker 6: just can't function, and you know, I need to have
31:57
Speaker 6: a sleep in the afternoon in the couch because for
32:00
Speaker 6: some reason, I don't have nightmares when I'm on the couch.
32:03
Speaker 1: So that did it for me.
32:05
Speaker 6: But I did try to come back three times to
32:07
Speaker 6: office jobs at the Police Center, but I didn't really
32:10
Speaker 6: feel like I was a real policeman apologist to anybody
32:13
Speaker 6: who works at VPC.
32:14
Speaker 1: I don't mean that as a criticism.
32:16
Speaker 6: But it just wasn't what I had ever envisaged for
32:19
Speaker 6: myself as a copper. You know, I didn't think I
32:21
Speaker 6: was very good at the job, trying to adapt to
32:23
Speaker 6: these new systems and everything. But also the PTSD really
32:29
Speaker 6: gave me a catastrophic loss of self confidence and I
32:33
Speaker 6: was just really struggling. Was struggling to even talk to
32:36
Speaker 6: people in the office and that sort of thing. So, yeah,
32:39
Speaker 6: that was finally cutchwor and here we are.
32:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, finally the police medical officer made the decision
32:48
Speaker 2: for you your ill health retired, and I'm reading in
32:51
Speaker 2: your column that there was an insult or injury moment
32:53
Speaker 2: where if you put in a PTSD claim over the
32:56
Speaker 2: age of fifty five, and I think you were just
32:58
Speaker 2: over that age, then you're not eligible for a pension.
33:03
Speaker 5: Seriously.
33:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think.
33:07
Speaker 6: Like again, I had to fit stuff into nine hundred
33:10
Speaker 6: words in the age I wanted to be to put
33:13
Speaker 6: that in. I wasn't really comfortable putting that in there,
33:15
Speaker 6: but it's true. Nevertheless, I don't have a pension. My
33:19
Speaker 6: paychecks stopped coming on Hands Act day, so after that
33:21
Speaker 6: I have no income. There is the possibility of I
33:25
Speaker 6: am eligible to get early release of my superannuation, but
33:29
Speaker 6: I never anticipated doing that, so I'm pretty reluctant to
33:32
Speaker 6: do that. And there was a fund that's fairly new
33:35
Speaker 6: called the Contingency Fund for people in my exact situation
33:39
Speaker 6: over fifty five who open your health retired.
33:42
Speaker 1: But it's not quite a pension.
33:45
Speaker 6: So I've been judged as getting an eighty two thousand
33:48
Speaker 6: dollars payout, but I have to pay tax on that
33:50
Speaker 6: and that will have to last me until I turned
33:53
Speaker 6: sixty and turn a bit is it's better than a
33:56
Speaker 6: punch in the face. But it's not exactly a person
33:59
Speaker 6: that I do feel it's a bit of an insult
34:02
Speaker 6: to me. After all, my dare I say it dedicated service?
34:06
Speaker 6: I think I've been very dedicated to the job, coming
34:08
Speaker 6: in hours early, doing paperwork, coming in on my days off,
34:11
Speaker 6: stay and laid all that sort of thing. I can't
34:14
Speaker 6: even think how many lunch breaks or meal brakes I
34:17
Speaker 6: had over my career, probably about ten. Always just hid
34:21
Speaker 6: it in the desk door, out in the car anyway,
34:24
Speaker 6: break out the violins there. But yeah, I do think
34:28
Speaker 6: it's a bit of a kick in the guts to
34:29
Speaker 6: then just be cast out scrap heap and just left
34:31
Speaker 6: the fence for myself.
34:33
Speaker 2: Well yeah, let's look at that. With the scrap heap
34:36
Speaker 2: your age fifty eight. Now you've got some lingering physical
34:41
Speaker 2: issues from your service, and you've got the pay.
34:44
Speaker 1: Seven actually, but I thanks training.
34:46
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've been judged just having two permanent physical injuries
34:52
Speaker 6: soft shoulder and my ankle. So all up, I've had
34:56
Speaker 6: seven operations as a result of some Island incidents on
34:59
Speaker 6: the job. They're not absolutely crippling, but they're enough to
35:03
Speaker 6: make their presence felt and yeah, obviously the PTSD and
35:08
Speaker 6: anxiety and stuff.
35:10
Speaker 2: I'm sixty three, so you're young compared to me at
35:13
Speaker 2: fifty seven. What do you in visits for the rest
35:16
Speaker 2: of your life beyond policing, because yes, you were a policeman,
35:19
Speaker 2: but that's just one portion of your life.
35:21
Speaker 5: Now. What happens from here.
35:24
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a good question, deserves a good answer.
35:28
Speaker 1: I'll try and give you one.
35:29
Speaker 6: I don't know if I can today, but policing is
35:32
Speaker 6: an extraordinary job. It's not just like any old job
35:35
Speaker 6: that you then have to find a replacement for. It's exhilarating,
35:39
Speaker 6: it's exhausting, it's demanding, it's depressing, it's everything, and sometimes
35:44
Speaker 6: all in one day. It's just the most amazing profession.
35:48
Speaker 6: So replacing that is virtually impossible. But that's kind of
35:52
Speaker 6: true for any policeman. I guess in my case, I
35:55
Speaker 6: didn't want it to end, certainly not as it did,
35:58
Speaker 6: so that's probably an extra weight on my shoulders a bit.
36:02
Speaker 6: But yeah, ultimately everybody has to retire at some stage,
36:06
Speaker 6: I suppose, and you have to find something else. So
36:10
Speaker 6: I do believe in service. You know, I've signed up
36:13
Speaker 6: for a disaster relief Australia. So that's a great organization,
36:16
Speaker 6: mostly veterans, whether military or emergency services, but anybody can
36:21
Speaker 6: join and they do great work after natural disasters in Australia.
36:25
Speaker 6: So that would help me with my sense of purpose,
36:28
Speaker 6: I think, and also now a member of Rotary saying
36:32
Speaker 6: those sausage sizzles at Bunnings A But yeah, ultimately I
36:37
Speaker 6: have to keep serving the public. I can't just sit
36:39
Speaker 6: back and do nothing. I want to still be useful
36:42
Speaker 6: and have a sense of purpose. So that's probably what's
36:45
Speaker 6: going to be over the horizon for me. But I'm
36:48
Speaker 6: also in fact, just before we came on here today,
36:52
Speaker 6: I was looking at my finances. So I have to
36:56
Speaker 6: work out if there's any way with my particular issues,
37:00
Speaker 6: if I can hold down a job. Maybe there's a
37:02
Speaker 6: driver somewhere just to give myself a little bit of
37:05
Speaker 6: extra income. Well maybe at the age will take me
37:08
Speaker 6: on as a journalist.
37:09
Speaker 1: You never know.
37:10
Speaker 5: You don't want to do that.
37:11
Speaker 2: I want to do that, But there's anybody out there
37:14
Speaker 2: who doesn't need a driver, who's had any rich experience
37:17
Speaker 2: behind the wheel in desperate.
37:18
Speaker 5: Moments, But you know what I mean.
37:20
Speaker 2: What came home to me in your story is that
37:23
Speaker 2: despite the lingering stuff that you're still facing, you wouldn't
37:26
Speaker 2: change your decision to become a cop.
37:29
Speaker 1: Why just because it was such an amazing ride.
37:34
Speaker 6: It's just extraordinary, you know, the level of satisfaction. And
37:38
Speaker 6: you know, I've talked about some big days, but you know,
37:40
Speaker 6: not every day is a big day. But you're still there,
37:43
Speaker 6: hopefully doing a positive thing for the community. And you know,
37:47
Speaker 6: I think I got that sense from my dad, and
37:50
Speaker 6: I've had quite a few police in the family, and
37:53
Speaker 6: I think it's just a great driving force to get
37:56
Speaker 6: up in the morning and go do that sort of stuff.
37:58
Speaker 6: I actually always thought it was a privilege to be
38:01
Speaker 6: a police officer, right, I hope I acquitted the role
38:05
Speaker 6: early and equitably. Always treated the public as I would
38:09
Speaker 6: like to be treated myself. And you know, certainly as
38:12
Speaker 6: a highway patrol copper, I gave out a lot of tickets,
38:14
Speaker 6: but there I say, I think every single one of
38:18
Speaker 6: them was deserved. I'd never victimized anybody, you know. I
38:22
Speaker 6: certainly gave a few warnings as well, always listened to
38:25
Speaker 6: the explanations first, and you know, I tried to treat
38:28
Speaker 6: everyone well, and even crooks. You know they've made some
38:32
Speaker 6: perhaps some bad choices. Sometimes they've been forced into it.
38:35
Speaker 6: You know, just always treat people well. You know that
38:39
Speaker 6: the job allows this amazing experience. And you know, as
38:43
Speaker 6: I wrote in the column, it said, I think every
38:47
Speaker 6: copper heard this on their first day in the academy.
38:49
Speaker 6: You signing up to have the front race seat and
38:51
Speaker 6: the best show on earth, and that's humanity.
38:53
Speaker 1: And that was that's proved absolutely right.
38:56
Speaker 6: I could write ten more columns with some of the stories,
38:59
Speaker 6: some of the things, you know, funny, sad, brutal, gruesome everything.
39:05
Speaker 6: Now my son gets sick of my stories. I'm not
39:08
Speaker 6: allowed to say that much anymore. But yeah, it's just
39:11
Speaker 6: an extraordinary profession.
39:14
Speaker 2: Well, I'll definitely get you back to tell more stories
39:16
Speaker 2: in the future, Jason Do. I want to thank you
39:18
Speaker 2: for your time today and not just your service but
39:20
Speaker 2: your sacrifice and what you're still dealing with today. But
39:22
Speaker 2: I've got to say one thing about this whole scenario.
39:25
Speaker 2: There's that quote from Henry David Thureau. He wrote, the
39:29
Speaker 2: massive men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called
39:33
Speaker 2: resignation is confirmed desperation from the desperate city. You go
39:37
Speaker 2: into the desperate country and have to console yourself with
39:40
Speaker 2: the bravery of minks and muskrats, a stereotype that unconscious
39:43
Speaker 2: to spare is concealed even under what I call the
39:46
Speaker 2: games and amusements of mankind. There is no playing them
39:49
Speaker 2: for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic
39:52
Speaker 2: of wisdom not to do desperate things. I guess the
39:55
Speaker 2: point is you've never struggled for purpose. A lot of
39:58
Speaker 2: people who've never been in this situation, never made these
40:01
Speaker 2: life and death decisions, don't understand that.
40:05
Speaker 5: And you know, you do make.
40:06
Speaker 2: Yourself different to the rest of people who don't have
40:10
Speaker 2: that purpose. So I think that is something that you
40:13
Speaker 2: can console yourself with that most people struggle, you know,
40:17
Speaker 2: going from day to day in their seemingly mundane lives.
40:21
Speaker 5: You've never felt like.
40:21
Speaker 6: That, No, no, not since I joined police. I had
40:26
Speaker 6: this conversation with someone just a couple of weeks ago,
40:29
Speaker 6: and they joined a veteran organization as a professional employee,
40:35
Speaker 6: and they said, I finally found purpose, And she said
40:39
Speaker 6: openly admitted that she'd never had that before, She come
40:42
Speaker 6: from job to job and never had a purpose in life,
40:44
Speaker 6: and now she found it. And it really is a
40:47
Speaker 6: tremendous thing to have and to cover for many ills.
40:51
Speaker 6: Because you do enjoy what you do. You do have
40:55
Speaker 6: a reason for getting up in the morning or indeed
40:57
Speaker 6: on nightshift.
40:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're going overseas with your family for a
41:01
Speaker 2: little while. Take that time detached from everything. I think
41:05
Speaker 2: there's going to be another chapter for you, Jason Doyle,
41:08
Speaker 2: which will fulfill your need for public service. We'll be watching.
41:12
Speaker 2: Please come and tell us how you go with it.
41:14
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure to talk to you, mate, Thanks
41:16
Speaker 2: very much. Ed. That's Jason Dole FORLM Victoria Police officer
41:25
Speaker 2: on his time in the job. I know a lot
41:27
Speaker 2: of serving and ex police officers, and most of them
41:30
Speaker 2: say that, despite the long term impacts, they would never
41:33
Speaker 2: have chosen another career. I'd love to hear from other
41:36
Speaker 2: cops who would like to share their experiences. Get in
41:39
Speaker 2: touch on Adam Shander writer at gmail dot com, and
41:41
Speaker 2: if you want to report a crime, please call Crime
41:44
Speaker 2: Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero.
41:47
Speaker 5: This has been Adam shand for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
42:01
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
42:05
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42:08
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