Latest / Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!! / strength through struggle

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strength through struggle · Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!!

• Pete: Ever wish you had someone to talk to anytime, anywhere, matter what you're going through? Meet PsychPAL, your 24-7 AI companion, designed to help you process your thoughts, calm your mind, and keep you moving forward. Chat anytime during a panic attack on a restless night or just when you need to vent. Prefer talking instead of typing? Try voice journaling. PsychPAL listens, transcribes, and truly understands. You can even upload screenshots of tough conversations, and it'll help you unpack how they made you feel. PsychPAL keeps life organized, too. It can add appointments to your calendar, track your mood, and even summarize your sessions for your therapist so you'll never lose progress. Plus, built-in crisis resources are always just one click away. It's a privacy-first, constantly evolving, made to complement your professional care, not replace it. Ready to try it out? Head over to the link in this episode and use my code, Pete, at checkout to get 20 % off your first month subscription to PsychPAL. PsychPAL, because your mind deserves a companion too. There we go. I think that's the one I like. We got it. We got it. Boom. peter: but Pete: went to doing like pre-recordings. Well, Keith, we're at the part of the interview where I'm gonna ask you those two questions. All right, Amanda Landes: that I had been kind of like since head for a while about about writing the story because Mia Mason: you are not the only one that experiences thoughts, Pete "mental Health Champ": Well, Dr. Erica, before we start wrapping up, I'm going to ask you Pete: Hello, welcome to the exciting episode of Pete versus anxiety as always. Let's give a shout out to my partner psychpal. Guys, no more than in the description. Link will be there. Code Pete at checkout for 20% off. With that being said, my guest today has an interesting story. After surviving cancer and rebuilding his own life from personal collapse through sobriety, discipline, fatherhood, and the responsibility, he now helps men stop evading their lives and become stronger, clearer, more capable. Please welcome in. My guest today is a licensed therapist, psychotherapist. Private practice owner and the author of the upcoming book quit invading a therapist guide therapist field guide therapist field manual for men. The one the only Alex Osterman is here. Damn, Alex, if I could budge of that one any worse. Alex Osterman: No, thank you so much for having me on the show, Pete. Pete: So Alex, listen, man, after all that being said, man, like like wow. Wow. Cancer survivor and and you're going through so many different things. Like, you know, even sub going through sobriety had to be hard, you know what I mean? And the the Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: discipline it took for that too. And then on top of that, you're a father as well. You know, all those struggles, man, like like wow. Like it was this all in the course of just like when you were you're already licensed and you're dealing with all these things too? Alex Osterman: So this actually happened. I was actually going into my last year of school when I got the diagnosis. I took some Pete: okay. Alex Osterman: time off and then it really came down to I had basically was told, Hey, if you don't finish this year, you gotta finish. But I had I got the d I had the diagnosis in twenty sixteen. I had testicular cancer. I got very lucky. they caught it very early. It just required surgery, but The bigger thing that happened is what happened to me afterwards, which was the whole lapse, drinking too much, depression, kind of avoiding life, all those types of things. it was pretty much two thousand, I think, twenty twenty eighteen, where it was like, All right, you're gonna do this or not. So that's when I was able to full myself through and still get myself to finish the degree. Pete: Yeah, yeah, man. That's that's a lot though. Dealing with cancer is tough just hearing that because a lot of times that's the that's it. That's the final straw for a lot of people. And me and an oncologist actually who was recently on the show, we were talking about that, like the things that don't say to people that have cancer and things that you can say to people and things like that. So what's the what's the drinking derived from that though? From you just like, well man, now I've got cancer. What the hell I do next? Alex Osterman: So even though I caught it early and got rid of it and you know was cleared, rang the bell and everything, it was more so the mortality check. Like you're twenty six, you think you're immortal, you think nothing bad's Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: gonna happen to you, and then all of a sudden, like just a ton of running into a brick wall, you go, Well, I could die at any moment, might as well make every Pete: Right. Alex Osterman: day the best day ever. And what does that mean? Excessive pleasure was the misinterpretation of carpe diem. Pete: Yeah, definitely. You know, but I mean, you know, like you said, you're twenty six, you're young, you think you think you're invincible. You're just like, Well, nothing can stop me now. And then, you know, that happens to fall on your plate. So what got you into psychotherapy though, man? It's it's an interesting turn there. Was it something you've always been interested in? Alex Osterman: I was always the friend in high school and growing up that when my friends had problems they talked to. I I was actually a pre-law Pete: okay. Yeah. Alex Osterman: major prior to that. And then I remember in my freshman year college sitting on a bench helping a friend with an issue and I was like, Well, why don't I do this for a living? And then I just immediately switched to psych and loved it. Pete: Yeah. Yeah. See, I was that same friend too, man. Everybody would come talk to me. I was always the fixer for a lot of problems, and things like that too. The lo and behold didn't know that this podcast was even gonna exist as long as it did. you know, when I started this whole thing. And it's like I was just like, Yeah, you know, but I I never really went into psychology. I'm thinking about it. I might be at well, you I'm still I'm still forty one. I still got time. I'm Might as well learn some things while you go, you know what I'm saying? But it's always it's always interesting to hear people's stories about how they get into things because a lot of people start in therapy and then go into different ways. You know, like hypnotherapy and all these other different things and newer things that are coming through and stuff like Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: that. You have any plans to adding those extra little new things? Because what you know, think about it, mental health has changed from where we were kids to where we're now with all the things that we know now versus then. Alex Osterman: I actually do. It's a big, big, big plan. you know, I'm in the very beginnings of it, but kind of some of the therapeutic techniques I've been doing, I'm trying to eventually create an umbrella for them called kind of generative alignment therapy. And instead of just focusing on helping individuals, you know, reduce symptoms, it's more so strengthening individuals' capacities to handle their symptoms, in particular with anxiety, and be able to, I always say with people, a five-pound weight remains a five-pound weight. You just become stronger, so the five pounds this and feel like five pounds. And then Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: the generative generative part of that, this kind of model I'm building out is well, how do you use your strengths, what you've been through and what you've overcome to help other people that are struggling too. Pete: I think that's a great idea though. Think about it. You're strengthening them as well, you know, and it's a different perspective than just trying to fix and help people deal with their symptoms. You're like, you what? Let's do one better and let's strengthen them and show them how to be stronger now that they know what they've been through. You know, and I think a lot of life experiences, those are great too, because peop a lot of people, that's the most people we trust. Think about it. Like anybody that's been through these situations. You're more likely to trust them versus somebody just starts telling you things. Well, I've never been there, so I don't know. You know, that's not a generally good way to start a conversation. Alex Osterman: Absolutely. you're 100% right with that. When we have an expert or someone that's, you know, gone through the terrain and knows the terrain, it's we always feel more comfortable. It's also the benefits it does for the clients too. A lot of people I work with with trauma, it's the idea of because I went through this and I learned these things, I can help other people. And that's healing for the individual that went through things as well. Pete: Yeah. Very true, very true, very true. So let's talk about the book, man. How did it come Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: to mind? Like, you know, writing a book is a daunting task as it is. And you know, I've heard a lot of people's stories. So what was that defining moment where you're like, you know what? I'm gonna write a book to help people out. Alex Osterman: So it came actually from two people. It came from my old supervisor, when I was still an associate counselor. She, just hearing me talk, kind of recommended it. And my dad also told me, like, you've gone through a lot, you've done a lot, do something with it. So I kind of played with those ideas, and then it really just came down to You know, almost initially starting as a memoir of kind of where I was at with the cancer and how I rebuilt myself. And then Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: it became more so like, well, how do I turn this into something special that helps people actually make the changes when they're feeling stuck the way I did? You know, the book starts with me, you know, almost 300 pounds with the black eye in my old childhood bedroom with the beer on the nightstand and like how I went from there to where I am now. How do I walk people through those steps? Pete: Yeah, yeah. I love the title too. How did you come up with that one? I love the whole therapist field kind of daniel thing. It's like so funny to me. I was like, dude, that's I love titles of books like that because like that's always what catches your eye. Like you're in a bookstore, you're looking for things. The title is the number one thing I would think would catch people's eye. And you guys, a lot of you authors lately, man, you guys have come with some really great titles. So how did you come up with that one? Alex Osterman: really, I was almost shocked that that title wasn't taken when I came up with it. But the big piece was my own life and what I was doing was I was avoiding a lot of the things I had to do. And when I realized, like just and it's not like a huge leap, do everything at once, but started taking small steps. You know, the more I leaned into the challenges versus avoiding them, the more my life changed. then the field manual piece came from trying to make this book distinct, going back to what you were saying, Pete, about you know, someone that's walked the terrain and how we Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: trust those individuals more. I wanted to make sure. that somebody understood that this isn't just a memoir. Here's steps for you to take. Here's why you're gonna take those steps. Here's the psychology behind those steps. so that kind of the field manual piece kind of stuck more with that. It's felt right to me. Pete: Yeah. And it sounds like it's it's easily paddle for anybody to pick up and read. You're like you're explaining why. Because you know, a lot of times you're reading these things, they're like, why am I doing this? But then you're like, hold on. Wait, here, let me explain the reason for you. Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: And you give them an explanation that they can understand. So it's easy enough for anybody to pick this book up and go, okay, listen, he's not asking me to make these major changes right this minute. He's saying, Let's do this in little steps, you know, little successes as you go, you know, because that's the easiest way for a lot of us to do it. But you know, a lot of us think we have to change everything instantly. And it's like, it's not, really not. It's it's hard. You know, and that's why I tell people too when they get into this field of podcasting as well as an example. You know, like people ask me about it, and then I tell them, I'm like, I'll be honest with you, it's hard. There's a lot of steps to it. I'll be real with you, but listen, just take it little at a bit at a time. Just do, you know, the same thing, and it you'll get there eventually. Because somebody did ask me that question too, like, well, how how come you got to so many downloads you're at? I don't know. I just kind of took it one step at a time, just consistency and just kept going. You know, and just kept pushing the conversation out there, you know, and that's how we're here now. But, you know, but so y I know we did discuss this a little bit before we got on. The book isn't out yet. but what do you want people to take away from this book? Like let's give them a little something taste. Like, what are some things that they could find in there that they could take home and be like, hey, listen, I really want to see this book. Alex Osterman: So, one, which you just described with the podcast show and building it, that's the model right there. That's perfection, like small steps at a time and just going through these steps, then you find yourself in an entirely different place. bringing it back to the book, there's a couple things. So I play with some, you know, basic concepts, things that have been said by other people, like, you know, make your bed starting small, like you just described. But I also do some Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: other stuff that's a little bit you know, trying to make some of these things more actionable. I'm a huge fan of Carl Jung. Shadow work in particular and understanding the Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: shadow and what it is to integrate the shadow. I break down and in chapter seven, Embrace the Shadow, there's a step-by-step instruction guide for an individual to do that stuff. I give individuals ideas for how to build habits, things like that, questions to ask the ego. So there's a lot of stuff in there that's really saying, hey, here's stuff that you might get from a self-help book, but here's also stuff to start understanding yourself. And then the book. Most interestingly in my opinion, and it kind of took this own development out of of itself, was it goes beyond just making a strong individual. It's about be what does that strength serve? And the idea being, well, your community, your family, your friends, the people around you, that generative component of how do I now that I've developed myself, who can I help? Pete: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Shadow work is nothing new to us here. Actually, the four-time returning guest, Miss Melissa Kim Corter, actually specializes in shadow work. So when you said that, I was like, Man, we've we've heard that term a few times before on this show. but I I like the approach though. I I like that you know, you work with men, but you're not like, yeah, you're trying to push the macho approach to things because you know, we know as men we're always told to not not show feelings and all these other things, you know, Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: given it being suicide awareness month, obviously we're gonna get into this topic anyways, you know, because, you know, with us being the most leading deaths, you know, in the case of suicide, I like the way the book approaches things. Like you're telling them, okay, well, a sense of family, community, things that are really important to a lot of people. It's not just like, well, macho, this, ma you know what I mean? Like a lot of people trying to Alex Osterman: Yeah. Pete: cram down. It's it's it's just horrible. Alex Osterman: I a hundred percent agree with you, Pete. I wanted to make sure the book didn't turn into that. I think, you know, so many men are looking for and especially younger men and teens are looking for that model. And when they find someone Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: that's just pushing that stuff, and then they feel upset, they feel scared, they feel nervous, they feel disappointed and they go, Well, I'm not allowed to feel this, and that's the worst message they could get. We're supposed to feel how we do. The only way you can be brave is if you are afraid. And those moments of acknowledging those feelings, accepting them, and then still finding the courage to move forward to some extent, that's where strength and in my opinion, that's what masculine energy is all about. Pete: Exactly. See, so my thing too with the whole alpha male system thing is like my thoughts are if you're the alpha male, you should be able to feel your feelings, express your feelings, things like this. But that's not the way we look at it. It's a tower system. Me and Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: a neurologist were discussing that, like how we men look at things in a tower system. We're already trying to but like it's like to me, it's like let's challenge the system. Why not the alpha male be the one that does all these things that everyone says we're not allowed to do? We're not to be emotional, we're not to have feelings. You know, and then Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: and then you know you also you're gonna you're gonna deal with haters either way. You know, it happens regardless. Welcome to the internet. We all know they're out there. As we've seen the last person that challenged Men's Mental Health Month didn't win well for them as well. I don't know why these people continuously think that they want the internet to to dislike them to the point where they're just getting crazy. But you know, it happens. And I think Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: you made a really good point that these younger men are looking for someone to look up to and something, you know, because some of these guys don't have really great father influences in there, you know, in And they're looking for what to see. And then they go to the internet and then you see these Andrew Tates and these other people just acting just so like odd about things, just making it look like you need to be do these certain things to fit in. And it's the same thing for females too. Don't get me wrong. A lot of them go and scroll the internet, get the wrong impression about how they have to do these things to make guys like them when really at the end of the day, it's really not the case. Alex Osterman: No, hundred percent with that stuff. And I mean I've worked with some of those guys that are younger, you know, kids, teens from separated parents, those types of situations. And just, you know, my work isn't just helping them with their anxiety, their depression, or ADHD at that point. It's trying to model that healthy male role model too, which not many people think about with therapy. I it's Pete: Exactly. Alex Osterman: it's one of the reasons that emphas I emphasize my sobriety so much is I deal with people with alcohol addiction or drug addiction. I deal With people that are afraid of taking a chance or doing something that's might make them nervous or you know, trying to get back into shape. And I personally speaking, is it all right if I curse? I'd be a fucking Pete: Yeah, go ahead. Hell yeah. Alex Osterman: top I'd be a total fucking hypocrite if I was telling people to do this stuff and didn't try to model this behavior myself. Pete: Yeah, no, I agree. But I think that's great though. You're working with the younger men, you're trying to help them get a sense of direction. You're you're instilling these things into them because I think family is important at times, you know, and and faith too for some people, you know, whatever whatever you want to put in that void, really honestly. So, but I I love the way your approach is. Is this is this something that you've always thought of since you you started doing this thing? Because you know I love to highlight it because you know, a lot of like I said, a lot of men's coaches you see are always like, Women are the enemy, but you're like, Wait, hold on. They that's not the case here. Hold on, fellas. Alex Osterman: Yeah. it kind of developed. So I got very lucky. When I was going through my own challenges, my dad found me a a psychologist named Dr. Jeffrey Rudolph. And he was, you know, a game changer in my own kind of taking more action stuff. But also, this is right when I started you know, was finishing up school, starting out as a associate counselor. He he modeled what it is to be this type of therapist for me as well. And from there, I have a Marcus Aurelius bust up there too. I really I really got into stoicism. And that type of stuff. So between that mentor, the reading material and just seeing what worked, what brought men back to the therapy room? What did some of my male clients say they didn't like from other therapists that they appreciated about my approach? What did they say about my approach they said could have been done better? And just taking Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: these things and tweaking the craft to make it more you know, so I guess tangible or digestible for the clientele I primarily work with. Pete: Yeah, clearly, because you're taking all their feedback and a lot of people can't handle criticism. They just it's hard for them to see that well my masterpiece isn't going. You're like, no, no, hold on. Let's see what what didn't you like? You know, and you're taking a survey of what what some of these guys didn't like. That way you can apply it to everybody, which is great because not everybody is the same person. Let's make sure that's clearly stated. You know, everybody is different, Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: you know. But Alex is working to make sure it fits to everybody's, you know, taste. Like, You know, certain things he tweaks for you guys, which is great because, you know, a lot of people don't do that. They get set in their ways and like, I ain't changing nothing. It's worked. And it's like, yeah, that's not how that works anymore. You have to go do the research. And sometimes you don't you're not gonna get the answers you like when you do that. Alex Osterman: Absolutely. And I think, you know, when you start to use those criticisms, like there are like you said, there are haters out there that are just gonna hate. But when you get constructive criticism or people that are really trying to tell you the truth, that's something that we want to shift our perspective towards. This is fantastic. I'm so happy I heard this because this is gonna help me be better and improve and grow. And to me, growth is what it's all about. Pete: Mm-hmm. What a hundred percent a fantastic statement. Growth is what it's about. I went through my own growing process too. I am no longer the same person I was before. And the evidence of it was my daughters, who I never had a real conversation with after they lived with me because I was a horrible person to them. They even said to me, Said, you don't seem like the same person you used to be. That's the that was it. That was the brand, that was the final thing for me. It's like I'm doing something right because even they're noticing it. You know, and and things like that too. And I've been very open about my life on the internet. And it goes the same thing with people that get involved in me too. I tell them all the time, I'm like, you know, my life's on the internet and I don't lie about things, like things that'll happen, go through. I talk about all my struggles, you know. I've tried to push it so other men can feel the same way. They can come on here. And that's when I created this safe space. Was like, you know, I've had people come here and tell me some wild things have happened in here. and and it's been great because, you know, they have that space, they feel like You know, not so intimidated by a lot of things. And I I know somebody recently made a converse converse comment about the conversational way I do things. It's like, yeah, because you can get such a better conversation going when there's no pressure. Like I don't sit here and drill 20 questions to people. Cause it's like you guys can do those all day. I'm sure you've been on other podcasts where they ask you like 40 different questions. And Alex is like, this is a nice break for once. Alex Osterman: No, this is very nice. And yeah, I was gonna I was gonna say that and well, you know, when I do a review later, but yeah, this is this just going back and forth versus the interview piece. it's comfortable and it creates that type of setting where yeah, you're more willing to talk, open up, it's fantastic. And it's necessary too, for beyond just the Pete: Yeah, definitely. Alex Osterman: space, but I think everybody in general just to have a more nonchalant discussion attitude towards certain things. Pete: For sure. Hey, listen, what are your thoughts on the internet? Okay. So here's a scary statistic, okay? And you're a parent. I clearly hear the little ones in the background. So this is a question for Alex Osterman: Why? Pete: you. Listen, so 45% of parents report that social media has a negative effect on their kids' mental health, but we still let them get on the internet. What are your thoughts on that? Alex Osterman: be my daughter's two right now who is terrible twos, so that's all fun. But I Pete: Yep. I've been there. Alex Osterman: yeah, boy. I'll I'll ask for some tips from you then later, Pete. But I'm very much of the mindset that the We have to the same way we protect, you know, their sleep schedules, their routines, and for ourselves as well. What we put in our body, we make sure we take care of ourselves. The world has everything that's not the best for us out there. It has the good stuff out there too, but we have to put guardrails in for ourselves as adults. And I think it's the same for children in particular, because it's really bad what it does to a lot of their self-esteem, a lot of the challenges they have, what's going on. It's very much It's a wild west of material out there. Stuff that's even targeting them that isn't healthy for them. Pete: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause all the misinformation and then like we said, you know, they were looking for something. They're finding something, but they're finding the wrong thing and and and things like that too. And and that's that's the biggest concern is that that also and the fact that they can be bullied now on the internet, you can be bullied so many different ways. Versus when we were kids, you had to see each other face to face. So, you know, you decided whether you had the courage to say those things or you just muttered things under your breath. You know what I mean? Like But it's it's just scary, you know, because it being Suicide Awareness Month, I think it's very interesting to see these videos that people are putting out. one of them I I absolutely dislike is these, well, when you take your life, after you you you know what I mean? And they start listing things on like your life goes on without you, not giving you a sense of why you need to be there. And I'm afraid that some of these younger guys that may be on that edge see that and it pushes them over the edge, you know, and it's it's a really scary concern because. You know, with the rates being as high as they are and it and it's just like everybody says we're talking about it, but are we really talking about it enough? I mean and also I think Alex Osterman: Think Pete: we need to start younger too. Alex Osterman: I think a lot of what you're saying's right there. I've of course heard the it's so selfish piece. And even when Pete: Mm. Alex Osterman: it does hurt people, there's such a stigma around talking about it. Even in like YouTube, it's bleeped out. And what I've found, I've had clients that have brought these thoughts to me and almost this shame in the space where no, now the therapist is gonna react and judge me. Where it's like Pete: Right. Alex Osterman: I have to, you know, liability reasons, I have to do checks, but it's not gonna be this thing. Of course Pete: Yeah, definitely. Alex Osterman: I I wanna talk to you about this because I think That's a lot of people don't really talk about it. One of the most things that blows my mind is this is about an escape, and it's the ultimate escape for a lot of people with a lot of the challenges they're dealing with, which is we should look at this instead and say, Well, tell me what's bothering you. Maybe we can find a better outlet for you than that escape, Pete: Exactly. Alex Osterman: and that helps someone versus feeling like they can't bring it up because they'll be stigmatized for it, or they're being even more selfish if they tell someone about it. Pete: I think you made a fantastic point there that they're getting stigmatized. And and I get it's an uncomfortable conversation, but you can apply it to grief too. Grief is an uncomfortable conversation as well. And people are like, Well, I don't know what to say. Well, newsflash, they don't want you to say anything sometimes. They just want you to listen. As uncomfortable as the thoughts they're about to tell you are, it's better they tell you versus act on them at that point, you know. And a lot of times, you know, I know me with when I deal with my anxiety, like putting things out there. gets it out of my head so I'm not thinking about it constantly. So if I'm telling you these uncomfortable thoughts, it's because I'm trying to get rid of them so I'm not thinking about them twenty four seven because you know, w people like me that deal with anxiety, mind locks in and just starts going it'll start recreating itself into something else it isn't. So I I think that was a fantastic point. Alex Osterman: Yeah, so many people, when somebody brings one of these things up, they want a problem solve for them. Sometimes the problem solving is just listen, let them speak, Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: let them be heard. And that in and of itself, whether it's suicidal thoughts, anxiety, or grief in particular, you're not there's nothing you're gonna say that's gonna fix their problem. Being present and allowing them to speak about their challenge, that's what it's all about. Pete: Yeah, and don't judge them either. You know, like once they say something to you. Or, you know, the other thing too I really hate is people that find out that you're a suicide survivor and then they look at you in a different aspect. Like they feel like they have to kid glove you. And it's like you're making it worse. It's the same thing with people Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: that are that are recovering alcoholics too. You treat them differently and make them feel weird. And then you wonder why some of these guys relax. Because they're like, they're under so much pressure because they're like you're making them feel it's so different. Just treat them like normal people. You know, like I have a conversation Alex Osterman: Absolutely. Pete: with them. And you know, Alex, you could you could speak to that too, since you've you've been through recovery, you know. It it's Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: it's hard for people, man. They don't know what to say. And sometimes just having a regular conversation is all you guys want. You don't want to be feeling different. You don't want to feel the eyes looking at you, you know, because Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: when people know your secret, then it's like, God, are they gonna judge me for knowing these things? Like, like I've I've admitted a few times I was on the verge of suicide and I didn't care. I shared it on this show, you know. It it's just what it is, you know. It's something I deal with, but like we gotta stop stigmatizing these guys and giving them hell about it. Like they've had it gone through enough. Like you don't understand. Getting through an addiction is is a nightmare for people. You know, and Alex could speak to that one too. Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Yes. So with a lot of these things, one, congratulations on, you know, overcoming these challenges. Not to say they're gone, but that's tough. Pete: No. Alex Osterman: And that's how, you know, especially with the addiction component with myself, I always try to frame it like, don't put the kid gloves on. Be proud of this Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: person. That's a massive accomplishment for all of these individuals. but yeah, normalizing this stuff, yeah. I I I find sometimes people don't know how to interact with someone they previously knew because well, if their relationship pertained to drinking, they don't know how to interact and that could be difficult. Pete: Yeah. Yeah, it's very true. Yeah. And listen, I celebrate anytime I see a post that comes by and somebody says I'm X amount of days sober. Congratulations. Hype up every single time. I don't have to know you to be a positive influence on you. You know, I deal in a customer service setting in my main job and and I every day I'm trying to be as positive as I can to people. No matter what, it doesn't matter what they're going through, you know? And and like that's why I always close the show out with that statement of, you know, like one kind act, because you don't know what people are thinking. And there's a few people have come to me and told me some things that just blow your minds. You're just like, what? But it's like you know it felt good because you can see the relief and their energy and the body language they're giving off and things like that. You can tell that they they feel a lot better about these things. Alex Osterman: I I love that idea and that model. I mean, the world is tough and it's hard. That's really where that whole j building strength, building capacity comes from. And like what you just said there, one kind act, one small thing, you know, we're all in it together. We're all here struggling in our own Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: ways. And if you have the opportunity, be kind. Pete: Exactly though. But that's why I I invented that whole thing of, you know, hey, how's your mental health? Because think about it. If I were to come up to you and say, Alex, how you doing today? You could say, Okay. And that's it. Conversation dies. But if you ask Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Pete: that question, regardless of if they answer it, they're gonna be like, wait a minute, why are you asking me these questions? And then you could lead into things that you've seen, like, hey, listen, I saw you struggling a little bit. You seem like something's bothering you. Are are you good? You know, or even just tell them, hey, listen, listen, I hope everything goes better for you. I don't need to know the situation. You know, even that could even change the their perspective on things that they're looking at. Alex Osterman: Absolutely. that's a great question. I mean just the way you probably catch someone and instead of them just going through the script we're all trained for, now they're Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: actually thinking is fantastic because even if they tell you okay, now you've got them thinking and checking in with themselves. So that's great. Pete: Yeah. Yeah. They become more self aware and they're like, wait a minute, what is it that he's noticing that that I'm putting off? And you know, and it's it'sn't great though, because I s when I started doing it, people started doing it too, and they were sort of asking people that question and it it just grew from there. And it was just the catchphrase now for me. But it's really not a cat but it's really but it's Alex Osterman: I love it and wow. Pete: really not a catchphrase, though, because it's the way I feel about it. It's like, Hey, how's your mental Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: health? Like you ask people that question, like you said, you get thinking in and things like that too. So, you know, it's It's it's always great to see though that you know, people like yourself that are instituting these new things. Alex Osterman: Yeah, it's a great catchphrase and way to live life too and to really be associated with wow, that's such a cool thing to be connected to. And it's a powerful Pete: Yeah. You know, Alex Osterman: thing too. Pete: it is really powerful. It's a great question to be asking. But you know, so let's get back to the book a little bit. Is there any other takeaways that you want people, you know, that they could they could expect to come from this thing? And is this gonna be the first one or we do we have other ones planned? Because I know some of you guys you get that first one going and already thinking that next one. Alex Osterman: So this is the first one. The big thing here is it's gonna walk you from that collapse, that kind of lowest low. I use the term drift. You know, think of a Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: boat that's out at sea with no sails, no motor, no rudder, the ocean's Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: just taking it from pleasurable activity to escapism to whatever. you start there with the book and it walks you through an entire reconstruction process. You can read the book front to back immediately. I find that it works better when you read it. Take those steps, normalize those steps, then go to the next chapter. So, really, what it should help any individual, it's targeted towards men, but there's plenty of stuff in there for women as well and anyone. it helps you rebuild and and then helps you that rebuilding process go beyond the self. there's some stuff towards the end that's like I'm not gonna mention it's a little bit of a spoiler, but it's kind of a reveal of you've actually been doing something that other things have talked about. About throughout history Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: type thing, but it really tries to make this a tangible path, not just here's some ideas, no, do this for three weeks straight, and then once this is done, start doing this. Start thinking of yourself this way, try to understand yourself. Don't just say, Well, I need to get at 4 a.m. You're a night owl. Do your workout at night, then that's fine. What's gonna be actual truthful to you? as far as the second book, I do have some ideas already bouncing around in my head. the bit Pete: What did it see what I say? Alex Osterman: Yeah. I I started chuckle. I was trying not to chuckle to the microphone when you said that, because I do. Pete: Well, Alex Osterman: one of them is I'm building a workbook actually off of the book. Pete: see, that was gonna be my next question. Was were you considering maybe a workbook to follow this book? And just something that, you know, different prac the little different little things they could try to just keep reinforcing the same thing. Alex Osterman: Yep. So the book itself has those models in there. The workbook would be almost a 16-week course, 16, 26. I haven't figured Pete: Mm-hmm. Okay. Alex Osterman: out the time frame yet, but it would be almost exercises, almost from a cognitive behavioral to dialectic behavioral therapy shift, which would be, hey, here's an idea, Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: perspectives, behavioral things to do this worksheet today, and then you're gonna do this one tomorrow, and you're gonna do this at this time type of model. So much more in depth with step-by-step instructions. Pete: Yeah, and it re re keeps re s keeps strengthening what they've already learned and then keeps building on that and keeps going. And I I like that idea. So listen, while I'm teasing your brain, what about that second book? What are we thinking here? What's the concept maybe? Alex Osterman: So one of the ideas and it's actually interesting because what you were just talking about with you know, how's your mental health and that generative connecting to the community piece, one of the ideas is kind of playing with some of these things, the book's very focused on the individual and then expansion to the group. And more of a societal level kind of book. Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: taking some of these ideas about the individual and can these be extrapolated out to a civilizational level? I think that a lot of people, I think our society sometimes pushes. how you appear on the internet, you know, pleasure seeking, trying to create an image. And I think that a lot of people don't always find that meaningful and feel that they're pushed towards that for meaning where What else could we organize you know, our civilization, our people, our groups around? And generativity is a big part of that for me, the community and taking care of one another, modeling, passing on knowledge to the next generation. So playing with some of these ideas potentially in a grander scale than just the individual. Pete: Yeah, yeah. I think that's that's very true. A lot of times they feel like they get pushed into a category, you know, because we like to label everything, you know, whatever it is we want. Alex Osterman: Yes. Yeah. Pete: It that's our thing. We just like to label it all. And it's just like we need to stop doing that. Honestly, it's just like we Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: label things that we don't understand. And I think, like you were saying, we need to be nicer to people. And it's like, why not just start asking people questions of things you don't know? Like if you see somebody struggling, ask them a question. See what it is. If you see something get mental health wise diagnoses you've never seen. Go ask about it, you know. What what harm are you gonna do being more interested in what they're doing? You may even make that person say doing that, you know, just you better understanding these things and stop labeling people as crazy when really that's not the case. Alex Osterman: Absolutely. I was smiling when you said asking people questions because when I deal with people with social anxiety, that's always my recommendation for them. Start asking someone questions about themselves. You're gonna make them happy. They could learn nothing about you. It'd be good if they do learn something about you, but they'll leave that conversation thinking you're a great person because you asked them about themselves. Pete: Let's do and you never know, you might meet somebody that has the common ground of things that you like too, and you'd be like, All right, cool, you know, and branch off of that thing too and and stuff Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: like that as well. Alex Osterman: Yeah, absolutely. So no, I mean Pete: I don't I don't Alex, I'm gonna be honest, I don't like people either some day. I'm just talking I I say that to me all the time, always Alex Osterman: Ha ha ha Pete: tell people that I'm like I deal in customer service settings. Like, I don't like people some days. And it's just because, you know, I have people all day, but podcasting I love doing. Like I love talking to people, love meeting new people, and things like that too. So I jokingly tell people that all the time. Like, yeah, I don't like people today. It's okay, Alex Osterman: Yeah. Pete: you know. And they all just start laughing at me. I'm like, All right, cool, you know, I'm serious, but all right, man, whatever, you know. Alex Osterman: I mean, I always say and assume because people assume I'm an extrovert just from talking to people, you know, forty, fifty, sixty hours a week. now I'm an introvert, Pete: Mm-hmm. Alex Osterman: so I need my time to myself to recharge. And maybe Pete: Exactly. Alex Osterman: maybe you need your time to yourself to recharge too. Pete: You you know I do, I spend a lot of time doing that. I'm a very well, you know, it must it it's also come from when I was a kid because when I was a kid in junior high, I was I spent a lot of time by myself. So I'm used to being by myself. So like it's my mom likes to tell me I live like a mole man because I used to work third shift, so I had the the blackout curtains on all my windows and she Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: come in, she goes, You know, you live like a fucking mole man. I'm like, and it makes me laugh, but it's like because I I'm up all night, what do you mean? Like, but it throws Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: you off. So like my days off, like I didn't want to do anything. I just kind of hang out and do whatever, do my own thing because that's my time to me. But at the same time, when I'm at work, there's not a lot of people telling me what to do. I'm pretty much on my own and it feels comfortable because, you know, when I was a kid, I was by myself for a lot too. I just just how it was. I grew up by myself a lot and they didn't have a lot of interaction. You know, my dad was working all the time. And then whoever the girlfriend of the week was at they, you know, back when before he got remarried. You know, we were just kind of moving around a lot. So I moved around a lot too. So hiking friends was hard for me too because I didn't have enough stability. But when I got to high school, I finally did and I made those core friends. You know, it was different. And I've had friends like God, what do I think the oldest one I know is like 25 years now, friends that we've known each other for a long time and things like that. And it was hard though, like I said, at first to move around. So I get that feeling of, you know, like some of these social anti and these antisocial type people and get that because it's like it's hard when you don't Know these other people. You feel like you're the person on the outside looking in. But then, you know, when I finally got that base, it was so nice. And at the same time, when I was abandoned was 10, I also have that thing where I want to make everybody feel like they're all together. You know, always make somebody feel included. It's always been, don't matter what it is. Step sisters, stepbrothers, I've never made them feel any different than who they were. They're steps or sisters to me, doesn't matter. You know, other people I go to these places, get together, so always try to include everybody in a conversation because that's just just what I come I came from, you know. And things like that too. And it's it's helped a lot too, especially when doing the show, is that just like the fact I just let I invite everybody, honestly. I s I spam, I invite people all the time. I'm like, Hey, come on, when you come and check this out. Da da da. So it's been fun though. I mean, it's we're we're almost the two year mark and we're we're still going strong, man. Big time. Alex Osterman: That's such a powerful thing, you know, to do with what sounds like to me, you know, just with my therapist hat on, you know, dealing with the trauma from ten years old. And Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: here you are saying, This is how it made me feel. I felt alone and isolated at times. So what am I gonna do? Now that I'm an adult and I have the capacity and strength, I'm going to make sure people feel included. What a powerful response to that difficult thing. I, you know, that's incredible, Pete. Pete: Yeah, man, I I tell I tell people I turn it into my superpower because you know, it's it's why it's so easy for me to invite people in here and just make them feel welcome because I like I said, it's that need to want to make sure everybody feels included, you know, everybody has a voice in this conversation. And it doesn't matter how old or how how young you are. You know what I mean? I've had people in here as young as eighteen come in here and get their perspective on everything because I'm always curious to know all these things. So whenever I see new things that people are doing, I'm like, hey, listen. I want to come talk to me about it because I love it. It's great. You can never know the things until you ask questions, you know. And you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Honestly, like I tell everybody the same thing. They asked me how I get a lot of these interesting guests that come on the show. And I'm like, I'll be honest with you, most of these people, I've random met them randomly met them on the internet. I literally just went across the post. recently was a young lady I just found out. She's not even 19. She's almost 20. Has getting a master's in psychology, Alex. Okay. Has a podcast with five million downloads. Now, mind you, before this. I didn't know any of that. I just invited her on, thought I loved her post about suicide awareness. Hey, listen, you want to come have a conversation? you know, I we're obviously aligned in this message to try and get the message out there that we need to talk more about this, destigmatize it. Turns out this girl is graduated Alex Osterman: Yeah. Pete: high school at 15. Her name's Rye, and she runs another podcast. It's in your truth, it's called In Your Truth. But it was so interesting because like I didn't know any of that. And I was just reading that message. I'm like, does that say five million? And she she's Alex Osterman: Ha ha. Pete: like, she was laughing during the interview because I'm like, I looked at your thing and I'm like, hey, does that say five million? I showed it to some other people like, hey, does that say five million? Like, am I reading this right? And they're just like, Yeah, I'm like, you know, yeah, okay. So, but Alex, with that being said, you already know what time it is. That question is coming, man. I hope you've thought about your answer to this one. Now, Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Pete: the first one is always a fun one. Okay. So the top answer so far to this question was grandma got ran over by a reindeer. So my question to you is, if your mental health had a song, what would you say that song would be? Alex Osterman: so I'm gonna be a little kind of deep and probably stereotypical. it's Tools Lateralis is my mental health song. It's very much Pete: Okay, okay. Tool tool's a great choice. Alex Osterman: Yeah. it's very much just kind of the pattern of developing oneself. And the whole song's about really what we were just saying there, you know, it's about stop overthinking and get out there and live life and go on the journey and see where you go. Pete: Yeah, yeah. Listen, tool has been the first time we've had it mentioned though. like I said, the guy, what was his name? Keith, yeah, I think it was Keith, I think his name was. He was a really cool guy, older guy in his 60s, really great dude. She worked he was an ex military. He said, Grandma got ran over a reindeer, and I almost fell over laughing. I'm like, bro, you seriously kidding me? What? What? Like, like the great thing about that answer is like, you know Any it's there's no wrong answer to the question. Everybody has a preference. Music plays a big part in my life, especially anybody that really knows me. I listen to music all the time. My girlfriend knows too, a driver insane, because some of those songs get stuck in my head repeat. the current song now is How Do You Sleep Who Bis Thank. She just she cannot stand that song. So we're going to see Stain's 25th anniversary tour, they're coming to the Chicago area. So I told her when that one goes when that song starts playing, I'm gonna start recording her. So if you all see me with a black eye after this recording with Alex, you know what happened. Alex Osterman: It should be a fun show though. Pete: You know what I'm saying? But you listen, if I come back with a black eye, y'all know what happened. I pushed the limit a little too far Alex Osterman: Mm-hmm. Pete: because she knows I love to give her a hard time by things. But, anyways, Alex, before we wrap up this interview, we have to ask you the main question of the reason I started this podcast is that if you can break the stigma about mental health. Now, you know, it basically means like, what is that one thing you want people to stop believing? Alex Osterman: the one thing I want people to stop believing is that there's something wrong with them. so many people when they have a challenge they look at their there's something wrong with them. They have a challenge to overcome. And there's greatness and opportunity and a happy life as you work through that problem. so that would probably be it. You know, we all have challenges. I myself I have ADHD, so I've had to build habits and patterns to develop myself. Pete: Yeah. Alex Osterman: But very much the there's nothing wrong with you. You have a challenge to overcome and Part of your great story that you have the opportunity to write in your life is overcoming this challenge. Pete: Yeah, I absolutely I love it, man. And with that being said, guys, we're gonna wrap up this episode of Peter for ancient. But Alex, before we do that, why don't you let everybody know where they can find you? And obviously when the book comes out, I've invited Alex to come back and we'll promote the book as well. So y'all can get your links to everything like that. So let them know where they can find you, buddy. Alex Osterman: So the easiest place to find me is alexanderosterman.com as well as my Instagram at AlexanderOsterman. the Instagram's on the website. If you go to my website, you've got clips. Pete, if it's okay, I'd love to put our episode when it comes out on there. So Pete: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Alex Osterman: podcast episodes I've done, some essays. I have something called the Anti-Evasion Starter Kit, which is all the way that and all of the stuff on my website is free. it's a way for people to start challenging some of those tasks or things they're avoiding, to notice the relief they feel when they get it done. Other than that, I'm always happy to hear from anyone that has any psychotherapy questions. You know, it doesn't make me your therapist, but I'm always happy to help people if they're looking for a have a question or two to ask me. Pete: And and guys, we'll have all these links down below. Have his website, his Instagram, all that stuff for you guys to reach out. So you don't have to worry about searching if you're listening in the car. just go into that description link and go ahead and look for everything and it'll all be in there for you guys. And with that being said, guys, we're gonna wrap up this episode of Pete for Sanxiety. I'm Pete for Sanxiety, I'm on X all the way down to TikTok, I'm on Spotify all the way down to Panorode, and if you're in the Pennsylvania area, we are on the Pep. Radio Network. And as I always say, it costs nothing, absolutely nothing, be kind to somebody. One kind act you could do could save some life, or hell, you can make their day. I'm Pete for Anxiety signing off saying, don't ask how your day is today. Say, hey, how's your mental health?