Latest / Founder Talk with Alex Sheridan / Why Success Makes So Many Founders Miserable And How to Avoid That Trap (ft. Mark Hattas)

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Why Success Makes So Many Founders Miserable And How to Avoid That Trap (ft. Mark Hattas) · Founder Talk with Alex Sheridan

• 0:00
  So Mark, founder of O Co, the old coalition Co founder of
• 0:04
  Ruka, welcome to the show. Thank you.
• 0:07
  Good to be here. Yeah, pleasure man, Glad to have
• 0:09
  you. Always cheer to a quick cheers.
• 0:10
  Hey, all right. Sometimes your electrolytes in
• 0:13
  my liquid death. Do you have one of these?
• 0:15
  It's just. No, no, I don't like the name.
• 0:17
  It's like, why would you put death in the name of something
• 0:20
  you're going to drink? Doesn't make sense, right?
• 0:22
  But yet they've exploded. So it's like what?
• 0:25
  And I think, you know, they're, I don't know if you know much
• 0:26
  about their brand, but it's they're they're on a mission to
• 0:30
  kind of eliminator or keep the planet healthier, death to
• 0:33
  plastic, that type of stuff. So it is like a good, powerful
• 0:37
  mission for them. Yeah.
• 0:38
  Good death. That's bad.
• 0:40
  That's the bad stuff, not the good stuff.
• 0:42
  But I think when you just hear that, and I think that's the
• 0:44
  whole point is people see it and they're like liquid death.
• 0:46
  What the hell kind of stuff is that?
• 0:47
  I offered to someone. He's like, I'll take some water.
• 0:49
  I got liquid death. He goes, oh, I don't want that
• 0:51
  stuff. It's got all kinds.
• 0:52
  And I go, no, there's literally nothing in it.
• 0:53
  It's just spring water and carbonation.
• 0:54
  Yeah, that's good. OK.
• 0:56
  He tried and he liked this. So.
• 0:58
  Yeah. So I was looking at the optimal
• 1:01
  well-being website, obviously doing research on LinkedIn and
• 1:04
  that kind of stuff. And one of the one of the tag
• 1:07
  lines that caught me on the site was, and this is kind of the
• 1:09
  main headline was the happiest, most engaged, optimally,
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  optimally performing people have a number of things in common.
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  I would love to dive into those things.
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  And I know you're a man of impact and faith and you like to
• 1:22
  give. And so I thought we could help
• 1:23
  some people out today, specifically founders,
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  entrepreneurs and aspiring ones. So there's a ton to stuff, a ton
• 1:30
  of stuff to get in here. Where do we start with all this?
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  If someone, because it's like a lot to unpack and some of it's
• 1:36
  heavy and I'm down to go there. I'm down to get deep.
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  And that's what we do on the show.
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  So we'll do it. We, we're on a mission to be the
• 1:42
  real estate room in entrepreneurship.
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  Just we get into it. We don't hold back.
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  But if we're looking at, hey, if I want to be happier, if I want
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  to be more engaged, if I want to have optimal performance, where
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  do we start with all of this? So it's it's really interesting
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  because this all stem from personal experience.
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  You know, I built and sold the tech company.
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  I've started multiple companies, been talking, coaching, writing,
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  and one of the biggest commonalities that I see out
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  there is division within the self.
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  So what does that mean? You know, so if someone's
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  divided within themselves, we're at that level catering to an
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  aspect of who we are that's, you know, dissociated or
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  disconnected from our true nature.
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  It could be that we put on a show or a mask or a, you know, a
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  storyline that we then have to uphold.
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  And so if we're upholding that, that takes energy because it's,
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  it's a false uphold, you know, be like taking weights at the
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  gym and holding them and come back three hours later, you're
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  not holding them anymore. They get heavy.
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  Well, imagine holding up this idea of who you're supposed to
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  be, who someone told you to be, who you thought if you were,
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  that you would get happiness, well-being, wealth, whatever it
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  is, it doesn't work. It has to fail.
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  And so I went through massive failure only to get to center,
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  only to get to a place where it's like, wait, instead of
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  waiting for people to wake up and realize they're holding
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  those weights up for hours and days and weeks and months.
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  And, and, and the tensions like really, really uncomfortable and
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  harmful point out like, hey, you're holding these weights up.
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  Why don't we put them down just for a moment?
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  Like you can pick them up again if you want, right?
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  Because some people don't want to let go.
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  Because it sometimes harms them, but they're still holding.
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  Them, but they but that's what they're used to, right?
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  So if someone were trained with that kind of mindset since
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  kindergarten, you know, it's kind of what they know.
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  So you give someone space to let go of what it is they've been
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  hanging on to take a nice breath, realize like, hey, wait
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  a minute, what is it I really want?
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  And when you get back to that center, that's where the wisdom,
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  that's where the happiness, the clarity start to to emerge.
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  No, it's not, you know, instant, you know, it's a process, but
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  the process can go really quick with the right leadership, with
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  the right guide, and it can only be done by the person you know,
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  so no one can do it for you. But when you're ready and it's
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  like, wait, my life's not as fulfilling as I once thought it
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  was. I started this company because
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  of XYZ. Now it's burning me out.
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  Whatever the storyline is like, hey, that's the time to say time
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  out before you burn out, crash and lose what it is that you
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  had, you know, so diligently put effort into.
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  Let's reset. Get back to center so that the
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  fuel from the unification within yourself can be used to propel
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  the next stage. I was going to ask if is
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  childhood, is your childhood something that really matters or
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  is it an excuse? But it sounds like we're going
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  to get into that. It does matter and it does.
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  It's how you formed a lot of your beliefs and those weights
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  and a lot of those things come from that.
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  So if we can, maybe if that's the right order to go in, to go
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  back and say, how does your childhood affect who you are
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  today? Sure.
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  And I would say a lot of it depends on the effectiveness of
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  the integration of the events. So a lot of times, so children
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  are brilliant innately, they're brilliant.
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  So if you're in a harmful, toxic situation, a child is going to
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  find ways to protect, protect others, you know, to navigate,
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  to know when to come into the room, when not to come into the
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  room. I mean, they get, they know.
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  And in the knowing, you know, there's, there's this awareness,
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  but because there's so much pressure on the person to
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  conform, in order to get love, to get acceptance, you know,
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  often by the age of four years old, a child will leave and
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  dissociate from the true nature of their self in order to create
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  the mask that mom and dad really want or whoever the caretaker is
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  to fit in, you know, or protect or whatever, whatever it is that
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  they needed to do. And so those are just innate,
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  like natural tendencies of survival.
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  So what happens is those become patterns that replay in school,
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  you know, oftentimes they replay in work, you know, and they can
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  replay in marriages and throughout someone's life,
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  unless someone says, all right, wait, I've revisited this type
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  of relationship four times. Maybe there's something going on
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  in me. And when someone says that, then
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  there's an opportunity to start seeking.
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  And when someone seeks, they're going to find it because the
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  answers ultimately are going to be within themselves.
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  But you got to dismantle some of the storylines and the and the
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  belief systems that are dysfunctional in order to get
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  back to something functional that can be constructive, that
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  makes sense it. Does make sense?
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  And it doesn't need to be like 20 years of therapy.
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  I mean, it's this is a, there's a pattern process that can
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  easily break things down, get someone back to center,
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  recognize like, hey, you're not a victim to your past, right?
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  Your childhood actually created everything you need in order to
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  create what you came here from a divine purpose to create.
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  So there's nothing in that way. And it may sound like, wait a
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  minute, all this bad stuff does happen.
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  It's like, well, yeah, we'd like it to be different.
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  And yet the formation of someone's childhood, if it's
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  integrated properly, can really fuel a really productive and
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  happy adult. So much to unpack there.
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  I wanted to bring up something that I've heard from Tony
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  Robbins, which he said, you know who he always ask people whose
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  love did you crave more growing up?
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  And if they say it was my father, then he says, OK, who
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  didn't? Who did you have to be for your
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  father? You ever heard this and does
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  this make sense? To you.
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  I'm aware of him and I've seen a couple of his things, so I
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  probably have heard something like that from.
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  But what are your thoughts on that?
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  Do you think that matters that who you crave to love for for
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  the most? Like was it your mother, father,
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  grandparent? What was it?
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  And then who did you have to be for them?
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  Because he seems to think that is a big shaper in terms of and
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  you, you kind of mentioned alluded to it earlier, which is
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  who did you have to kind of be as a child to get the love and
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  the attention or to be safe or whatever it is?
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  It's right on. Yeah, it's because, because when
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  you recognize that, you know, another way of saying that a
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  teacher taught me that, you know, we're born with the files.
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  Like think of a computer file, the files of mom and dad, like,
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  right. They're all like, and they might
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  be active, they might not be active, but they're latent.
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  They're there. Just like, you know, if you take
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  two computers and you combine them, put everything on on
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  another computer, you've got the upgraded operating system, the
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  latest and greatest hardware, but you still have all that
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  software stuff. And so if you call up that file,
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  right, if I'm on a computer and I say open, you know, Ms. Word
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  or Google Chrome, it's going. To come out.
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  Right. If I type in search like certain
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  name, you know, it's going to pull everything related to that
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  name. So there's there's files.
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  And so we get resonated, you know, from a file structure that
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  sometimes we're not even aware exists.
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  It could be ancestral, but it's in US.
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  And so when we think of how that relationship with mom or dad or
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  whoever our caregiver was like, what did we have to?
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  What was the question, What do we have to become in order to
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  get? Who did we have to be for them?
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  Who do we have to be? Yeah, I can think of my mom and
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  dad and who I had to be in order to get from them what I really
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  needed. It's like, yeah, it's very, very
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  true. What wasn't?
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  I'm curious from your and I'll share mine, but who did you have
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  to? Who did you crave more love
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  from, your mom or your dad? I would say it was mom for me
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  consciously, but there's elements of dad there of course
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  as well, right? You know, any any well for me.
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  So with mom, I wanted her to see me as good.
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  You know, I just wanted like, hey, I wanted you to see me as
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  good because if I wasn't good, my dad traveled a lot.
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  You know, she would then tell him when he got home and then he
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  had to come home and be the disciplinarian.
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  And so I wanted her to have a perception that I'm good.
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  And then as I got older, it became I wanted to be productive
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  because that was the high mark of measurement of that
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  generation. It's like, hey, are you
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  producing well-rounded, productive people?
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  It's like, so I wanted that. So I wanted to prove like, hey,
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  I can contribute. I can do something that's
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  valued. And so that was how it was.
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  It was very simple. Were you not doing stuff that
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  was valued in like your younger years or high school or?
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  It's perception, right? So I wouldn't say, I mean, I
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  grew up in a really nice loving home, but we all have our stuff,
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  right? And and so one of the things
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  that I recognized was mom celebrated certain people,
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  right? So she looked out in the world's
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  like and would give us examples like, oh, look at what Uncle
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  Joe's doing. Look at what so and so's doing.
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  And she would celebrate, you know, her father, my
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  grandfather's an entrepreneur. And she'd celebrate certain
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  people and be like, oh, that's who mom approves of.
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  I want to be like that. Interesting.
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  So it's, it's, it's subtle, intentional or not so or not,
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  but kind of brilliant from probably a parent's perspective
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  a little bit. But what it what it didn't do is
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  allow me to see me in, in my full expression of who I could
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  be, right? So I was trying to become rather
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  than being. And that's the disconnect that
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  I've learned Like, OK, that got me somewhere, but it actually
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  created and set up for ultimately a crash that then
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  allowed me to say, OK, who really am I?
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  What do I want to create and and not?
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  What do I want to create for? Interesting.
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  How about you? I would definitely say, I mean,
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  I think you're right too. It's not one or the other.
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  It's who did, whose love did you create more?
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  And I would probably say my dad's and I would say who I had
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  to be for him was probably, I don't want to say perfect, but
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  just if you messed up or you got out of line, it was, you know, a
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  little bit of a problem. I mean, obviously wasn't abusive
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  or anything, but, but he was very pretty stern, pretty
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  serious most times. And I feel like if you, if
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  you're helping him out, do something and you kind of like
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  misunderstood the instructions or something, he just kind of
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  like, like, what are you, Why you, what are you doing?
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  You know what I mean? Like he would berate you.
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  Yeah, but he just kind of make you feel like you're supposed to
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  know that dude, you're stupid, you know, and maybe that's just
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  how I internalized it. It could totally be.
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  But so I, but I think in my case, I kind of rebelled against
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  that. You know, my dad was a cop too.
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  So there was very like a, you know, authority kind of
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  household. He didn't run like a military or
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  anything like that. But it was just very, there was
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  that presence there of like he was the law, you know, and I,
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  and, and definitely in high school, I rebelled against that,
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  whether I knew subconsciously or not, I think maybe I was craving
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  something from him. And my answer was you're the
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  law. You're straight narrow, maybe to
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  get attention. I, I wasn't thinking this at the
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  time, but if I go back now and say maybe that's what it was
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  subconsciously. And then I.
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  Could have been. And then I had a really tough
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  high school. I went to three different high
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  schools. I was in trouble a lot.
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  I was just like a very troubled kid.
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  Even though both my parents love me, we just kind of did this,
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  you know, we butted heads a lot and say my brother in to a
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  certain extent. And it's funny, my brother went
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  the path of like Air Force and structure and authority, you
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  know, and he kind of followed my dad's little bit in a certain
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  way, his footsteps. And I went the opposite route.
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  But then because of that sort of troubled time in high school, 14
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  to 18, let's call it at 19, I got my shit together.
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  I met AI, met a person, a girl in my life who like helped me
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  kind of get on the straight and arrow.
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  And I obviously did some self work myself and decided I wanted
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  to actually build a meaningful life and not be able to lose
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  her. And when I remember when I got
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  my stuff together, it was like, who am I now?
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  And I kind of had a little bit of an identity crisis and I
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  leaned all into like, Alex, you got to be productive.
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  You got to, you know, study hard for college, you know, you got
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  to work your ass off. You have to be the top person in
• 14:41
  sales of your job. You know, I felt very overly
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  compensated almost to show the world and, and my parents and
• 14:47
  everyone that you're not the bad, I'm not the loser, you know
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  what I mean? And it's almost like, it's
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  almost like emotional talking about it because you just, you
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  don't think about this stuff a lot.
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  But I, I just remember thinking of that.
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  But then I would still kind of what's funny is I would still
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  kind of look in the mirror and see that high school Alex.
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  And it took me a long time to be like, dude, forgive that guy.
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  Like you're not that dude, you know?
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  And, and there'd be flashes where I would see him again.
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  And I'd be like, Ah, maybe you are still that guy.
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  And it took, it took a lot of just years and work and
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  thinking, reflecting and watching stuff.
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  And but I think, and then again, the next 10 years is probably a
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  lot of like the chip on my shoulder driving my success and
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  saying I'm going to prove this world.
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  They don't know nothing about me.
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  I'm going to go get this. You know, it was almost like, I
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  don't want to say negative. And it was almost like a dark
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  energy. Success.
• 15:35
  Yeah, it was like, and I think a lot of people that have had
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  experiences like that or even more trauma, things like that, I
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  think a lot of it fuels them. But then you get to a certain
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  point where you think, I don't want to be fueled by like
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  proving people wrong or this chip on my shoulder.
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  I want to be fulfilled or I want to be moved and inspired because
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  I want to do good. There's a purpose I have,
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  there's a mission, there's an impact I want to make, I want to
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  give, I want to help. And that's when it kind of
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  started shifting. I think I'm still going through
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  that, but I'm curious to get your perspective on that.
• 16:04
  Is that something you see a lot of?
• 16:06
  Oh, yeah, yeah. So, and, and one of the things
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  is to let you know the younger version of you, right.
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  You mentioned forgiveness. It's a big part of this is to to
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  move through and let go of the judgments that we have for
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  ourselves at that particular time and to allow for grace,
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  right. And so when we allow for grace
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  for ourself, and it's like, OK, you know what?
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  I did what I did, you know, I accept it.
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  That's who I chose to be at that time, you know, and there's
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  probably good reason we can unpack it psychologically, but
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  we don't need to. And then you move to that anger
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  and you use that as fuel. And a lot of people do, you
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  know, Les Brown, I think made a whole career out of kind of
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  motivating people by tapping into some of that, you know, and
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  and there's a, and I don't know a lot about Les Brown.
• 16:59
  So I mischaracterizing and probably, but some of the things
• 17:02
  I saw, it's like you get that and have that fire.
• 17:06
  Well, that's also a drug, you know, anger is a drug and so
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  people can get hooked on that and it's limiting.
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  So it it will drive action, but it ultimately leads to
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  destruction. And so anger is sourced from
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  fear, right? So you've got your base of fear
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  and then unresolved fear, when it doesn't get resolved, it's
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  going to show up in a way that's anger and then that put out into
• 17:35
  the world. It's it's negative and
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  destructive all over the place. So when you got to the
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  realization of, well, wait a minute, I don't want to be
• 17:43
  fueled that way, probably because your system is like, I
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  can't do this anymore. I mean, this isn't working.
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  This isn't going to lead me to where I want to go.
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  And so innately, you know that. So now you move to the shift.
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  And so if you look at all those stages like, hey, that's
• 17:57
  brilliant. A grew up in a household where
• 18:00
  you had some control mechanisms and you rebelled against the
• 18:03
  control, which is common for entrepreneurial minds, right?
• 18:07
  And so it was just the nature of who you were to not be kind of
• 18:13
  tied down. You wanted to be and needed to
• 18:16
  be your own person or to create your future.
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  So it was good. So you rebelled and you did it,
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  however you did it. Then you go to anger.
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  It's like, hey, you know what? That did something that got you
• 18:27
  out of the out of the rut you were in to move into a different
• 18:30
  direction. So that was a stage, you know,
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  and you think of a child growing up, you know, and they get up to
• 18:36
  walk and they fall, right? We don't punish them and say,
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  you know, you should have been walking three weeks ago.
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  You know, we just don't do that, right?
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  So why would we do that? When someone goes through a life
• 18:48
  phase and a change like no, we go through acceptance, we go
• 18:51
  through understanding. We get to love, you know, and in
• 18:55
  love we can see compassion. It's like, oh, that's why I did
• 18:58
  what I did. OK, so now how do I want to show
• 19:01
  up? And now you move through the
• 19:03
  transformation. And the transformation has to
• 19:05
  happen in every human being. You know, I've got a book.
• 19:08
  It's a spiritual book, but it goes through this idea of
• 19:13
  shifting from the Caterpillar to the butterfly, right?
• 19:16
  They can't go through the transformation without creating
• 19:19
  the chrysalis. What a lot of people do is
• 19:21
  they'll use drugs, anger, sex, whatever it is to suppress
• 19:27
  career ambition, to suppress the transformation.
• 19:31
  And so they're staying in this angry Caterpillar stage when
• 19:34
  really the natural process is to reach up and form that silk pad
• 19:40
  and start, start going through whatever change needs to happen.
• 19:44
  Well, that change is not an instant thing.
• 19:47
  It takes a little bit of time and it takes a love and patience
• 19:50
  and allowance and surrender. And so that has to happen, and
• 19:54
  it won't happen till someone's ready.
• 19:55
  Unfortunately, history shows that it usually happens when
• 19:59
  someone breaks. And if you go on a macro scale,
• 20:03
  it happens when a country breaks, you know, the country
• 20:06
  falls and it's like, OK, that didn't work.
• 20:08
  Now we'll clean it up. Rather than proactively
• 20:12
  recognizing like pay, this structure isn't working, let's
• 20:15
  modify it, you know, before we crash.
• 20:18
  Well, you take that down to a business, a community, a family
• 20:23
  and ultimately. Yourself and when you look at
• 20:26
  yourself 1st and you can support the navigating of you to the
• 20:32
  fullness of you, you now gain faculties and intelligence and
• 20:36
  all kinds of things that were never available in the anger
• 20:39
  stage. And so you just mature in,
• 20:41
  right? It's not bad.
• 20:42
  It's just OK. That's that's not where I want
• 20:44
  to stay. Let's mature in hopefully we get
• 20:47
  collectively to a place where we don't have to go and get stuck
• 20:50
  in these stages, but we have systems that support and nurture
• 20:53
  people through them. We have a lot less fewer
• 20:58
  suicides and mental health instances and you know, issues
• 21:02
  and MERS and all all the things that are really destructive in
• 21:06
  communities and wars. When we start recognize, like,
• 21:10
  wait, if I know me and you really know you, you'd never
• 21:15
  hurt another human being. Like it just wouldn't, wouldn't
• 21:18
  be in your makeup, right? And you'd certainly never blame
• 21:22
  and hang on to crap about yourself from when you were a
• 21:24
  child. You would recognize like, OK, I
• 21:28
  need to learn from this and move through this.
• 21:30
  Like let it fuel you. And if someone's still stuck on
• 21:32
  that, it just shows an opportunity.
• 21:34
  You know, it's not bad. It's like, hey, there's an
• 21:36
  opportunity. If you keep getting stuck on
• 21:37
  repeating patterns, that's an opportunity.
• 21:40
  Like let's take the opportunity, put it in to a tool set with
• 21:44
  support. You'll move through things
• 21:46
  really fast. Not you.
• 21:48
  Yeah. No, no, you too.
• 21:49
  No, I know. No, I still feel like.
• 21:50
  Anyone watching? I still feel like I'm the
• 21:52
  Caterpillar that needs to to come out still, you know, but I
• 21:55
  think that's the exciting part is the potential.
• 21:57
  And you know, we're all kind of wanting to step into our full
• 21:59
  potential and really be the person that we know we can be.
• 22:01
  And there's kind of that saying of like, you know, let's say you
• 22:05
  get to heaven one day and then, you know, whatever you believe
• 22:08
  in. But let's say you get to heaven
• 22:09
  one day and God's like, hey, great, you made it.
• 22:11
  You did well, but this was the person that you really could
• 22:14
  have been. And it's not like it's really
• 22:16
  more successful or this or that, but they're showing you, wow,
• 22:19
  the Father you could have been, or you know, the business you
• 22:22
  could have created or the people you could have gave back to or
• 22:24
  helped. And you got to kind of look at
• 22:25
  that person, be like, damn, I could have been that.
• 22:29
  Yeah, did I show? Up.
• 22:30
  Did I show up? Yeah.
• 22:31
  Do you feel like you're showing up to 100% or?
• 22:34
  So I have a unique story because I, I so didn't show up early in
• 22:39
  my life, you know, or at some stage that the contrast is
• 22:43
  significant. So I am, I'd say I show up 99%
• 22:50
  of the time. And when I noticed that
• 22:56
  something's off, my system is, is just like, OK, we got to look
• 23:03
  at this, right? It's we've got to really say yes
• 23:07
  to going into something that in my past would have been really
• 23:12
  uncomfortable to deal with. But today it's like, oh, here's
• 23:14
  an opportunity. And so I'm more like that, like,
• 23:17
  oh, here's an opportunity. Let's look at this like, what's
• 23:20
  this showing what's revealing to me?
• 23:22
  And so it's, yeah, it's a different world.
• 23:25
  I mean, once someone goes through a stage of Caterpillar
• 23:28
  to butterfly, it doesn't mean that OK, life's over.
• 23:32
  No, now your now your next stage of development can mature as
• 23:36
  well because that butterfly has to flap its wings to dry the
• 23:39
  wings to even take flight. And then it's probably scary as
• 23:41
  crap to take off when the Caterpillar mindset was stuck on
• 23:47
  a leaf in a tree for its whole life and suddenly like, whoa,
• 23:51
  how do I how does this thing work?
• 23:53
  Right? And so when people go through a
• 23:55
  transformation process, that's kind of how it is.
• 23:58
  You know, the superhero. I love the Spider Man, like into
• 24:03
  the Metaverse, that like cartoony one and the early
• 24:06
  stages of the web coming out and the crawling, it's chaotic.
• 24:10
  You know, he's falling all over the place and making a mess.
• 24:13
  Like that's what happens. You've got these new skills and
• 24:15
  capabilities and access to resources that are innate within
• 24:21
  all people. You know, not all people have it
• 24:24
  equally within them, but all people have within them the
• 24:28
  optimal pieces for them if you so right.
• 24:32
  And so some people are going to have different skills and
• 24:34
  interests and gifts, but the ones that you have, we got to
• 24:38
  make sure that those come online and can be fully utilized.
• 24:41
  And you're aware like, OK, how do I, how do I implement these?
• 24:45
  Right? And as you navigate that,
• 24:47
  inspiration starts to come toward your, as you start moving
• 24:50
  toward your purpose to now to now Marshall it to do something
• 24:55
  good for the whole, you know, we're all part of another faith
• 24:58
  thing. We're all parts of 1 body.
• 25:00
  It's like, well, the toe, if it tries to be a hand, is going to
• 25:04
  be a lousy hand. So stop trying.
• 25:07
  Be the best toe you can be and embrace it.
• 25:09
  And a lot of people are out there angry and think that
• 25:12
  they're horrible hands when they're on the feet.
• 25:15
  And it's like, well, of course you're a horrible hand.
• 25:19
  Stop thinking that you're supposed to be.
• 25:21
  So what were some of the earlier things for you that were causing
• 25:24
  you to not show up 99% if you don't mind sharing?
• 25:27
  Yeah, so it was really, I felt very insecure as a kid around
• 25:36
  7th grade, hardest year of my life.
• 25:39
  And you know, a lot of changes happen around 7th grade and I
• 25:42
  was slow to physically mature. So there's kids going through
• 25:46
  puberty and the other side. So you got boys and girls and
• 25:49
  all this and and I'm kind of a younger, you know, less
• 25:52
  developed kid. I was a small stature and
• 25:59
  suddenly that year I lost all my friends.
• 26:03
  For whatever reason. I didn't understand what was
• 26:07
  going on or why. But it seems like everyone
• 26:09
  rejected now. Were they really rejecting or
• 26:11
  were they just saying yes to something else?
• 26:13
  And I wasn't that thing, right? If the bigger guys want to play
• 26:16
  football and I wasn't big and wasn't going to play football,
• 26:19
  it's like, OK, well, they're not rejecting, they're just choosing
• 26:21
  something else. But I took it as rejection.
• 26:24
  And so I did a lot to try to get people to like me.
• 26:28
  And that was a big, that was a big dissociation.
• 26:31
  It's like, OK, if I, if anyone out there ever tries to get
• 26:35
  other people to like them and then they don't like who they
• 26:39
  are, they start and I did becoming who they need to be to
• 26:44
  be liked. And so I became a chameleon and
• 26:47
  I could be liked in different circles of people, but I didn't
• 26:52
  lost touch with like, who am I? You know, because I'm with
• 26:56
  people who don't even believe what I believe or aren't even
• 26:59
  doing what I'm even interested in.
• 27:01
  But as long as they show affection and and inclusion,
• 27:05
  that was what I was seeking. So that was a big part of it for
• 27:08
  me and less at home because at home I had security and and
• 27:12
  that, but it it was like for me growing up, who cares?
• 27:16
  Like to me like who cares? I don't care about mom and dad
• 27:19
  of. Course, they love me.
• 27:19
  Yeah. I want my friends to like me.
• 27:21
  I want the girls to like me, you know, for, for my life.
• 27:24
  Yeah. What do you think it is about
• 27:26
  that people want to be liked? Most people are obsessed what
• 27:29
  they want to be liked. So they don't, you know, it's
• 27:31
  like just how we show up for anything.
• 27:32
  It's like, oh, I'm going to say this a certain way because I
• 27:34
  want to be liked or I'm on a date and I don't want there to
• 27:37
  be any awkward silence because they might not think that I know
• 27:39
  how to have a conversation, you know?
• 27:41
  And we just constantly obsessed instead of just thinking I'm
• 27:43
  just going to be me and the people who love me, me and
• 27:46
  appreciate me are going to flock to me and the people who don't
• 27:48
  or not. And I'm cool with that.
• 27:49
  Yeah, it's, I think it starts with, for me, it was judging,
• 27:57
  right? As long as we're judging
• 27:59
  ourselves or others. And it doesn't have to start
• 28:01
  with yourself. You know, it could be you see
• 28:03
  something and you're like, oh, or someone tells you like you
• 28:07
  see that guy over there, blah, blah, blah.
• 28:09
  And mom or dad or uncle, aunt, somebody inserts information.
• 28:13
  It's like, oh, I don't want to be like that because if I am,
• 28:16
  then they're not going to like me.
• 28:18
  So now I've got to make sure I'm not like these people that the
• 28:22
  people that I care for like. And so watch judgments in your
• 28:25
  life. That's a big part of it.
• 28:27
  That is a big one. It's huge.
• 28:28
  And then once we come into contact with what those
• 28:32
  judgments are, if we consciously dismantle them literally by
• 28:36
  saying, oh, wow, I'm judging the blah, blah out of these types of
• 28:41
  people. Why?
• 28:44
  Well, maybe there's fear there. Well, the fear is if I'm ever
• 28:48
  even close to being like those people, I'll be rejected by
• 28:50
  these people. And I can't stand the
• 28:52
  possibility of being rejected by these people because they're my
• 28:55
  family or they're the best friends or whatever it might be.
• 28:58
  And so you see a lot of this polarization and we see it
• 29:02
  massively in society, but you see it on the micro.
• 29:05
  So we can't change the macro before changing the micro.
• 29:11
  We can only change us. So if we recognize like, oh,
• 29:15
  what am I judging? And start declaring like, OK, I
• 29:18
  release. I release judging these people.
• 29:22
  I allow these people to reject me.
• 29:24
  Doesn't mean you want that, but you move into surrender and
• 29:27
  allowance. I allow these people who I crave
• 29:29
  their attention. I thought they were just like
• 29:31
  the cat's meow. I need their love.
• 29:34
  I allow them not to love me. I allow for that rejection.
• 29:38
  So I allow that and I release judging these people, right?
• 29:42
  So now all the sudden if I've got these tethers, you know, the
• 29:45
  weights that I'm hanging on into, into the gym and I've been
• 29:48
  hanging on to them for 30 years, I can lay those down.
• 29:52
  Suddenly now that energy can be repurposed.
• 29:54
  It's like, OK, am I, am I needing anything else here?
• 29:57
  And now we can look once, you know, at other areas we're
• 30:01
  judging externally or internally and start dismantling those.
• 30:04
  And as you release the judging process, life will change for
• 30:09
  you and you won't need or care what people think.
• 30:14
  It's a process. It's not like tomorrow you
• 30:17
  won't. But you'll notice over time of
• 30:19
  practicing this that you'll be more comfortable in more
• 30:23
  situations. So maybe on that next date, you
• 30:26
  won't be so concerned with saying the right thing, right?
• 30:30
  It's allowing yourself to say the wrong thing.
• 30:33
  But why did you want to say the right thing?
• 30:35
  I'm guessing it was because you've either experienced or
• 30:38
  witnessed people talking about or judging others or you when
• 30:43
  they didn't say the right thing, or you saw it in a movie or in
• 30:46
  the news or whatever it was. And so you're observing and your
• 30:49
  mind's always like, hey, how do I protect?
• 30:51
  And so as we release judgement, we start to enter into an
• 30:54
  awareness of center. And the center is to let the
• 30:58
  mind be a servant to us, not the master.
• 31:02
  And as we. So in part of that is to release
• 31:04
  this just judgement. It's not the only thing, but
• 31:07
  it's a big part I. Think it's also just freeing to
• 31:09
  not walk around judging people and complaining.
• 31:12
  I think it's the other one too, right?
• 31:14
  And I think for me, when I'm with my loved ones, I try my
• 31:17
  best to really call it out. If you see it.
• 31:19
  Like, for example, you know, you got someone we had someone like
• 31:22
  ride across their bike across like a huge busy St. that they
• 31:26
  never should have done. You know, it's like kind of like
• 31:28
  pull most pulled out in front of us and it's like, and I'm like,
• 31:30
  shit, what, what is this dude doing?
• 31:32
  Like, is he crazy? You know, and then my girlfriend
• 31:34
  would be like, Hey, he's he's probably riding his bike to
• 31:36
  work. And I was like, yeah.
• 31:39
  And just like, I don't know, there's something about that,
• 31:41
  like humanity just getting back. And what's the what's the
• 31:43
  emotion coming up for you? 'Cause I think that's a good
• 31:45
  question. And take it take yeah,
• 31:48
  seriously. Take a take a breath.
• 31:49
  This is the. Worst, by the way.
• 31:50
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a lot of people move past
• 31:52
  the emotion. You're trying to shut it down.
• 31:53
  Don't take a breath and feel. Just sit.
• 31:55
  Just internally say, hey, allow myself to feel it.
• 31:57
  It's OK. Yeah.
• 31:59
  Because you know what? You're just like everybody else,
• 32:02
  you know? And so by opening it up,
• 32:04
  actually allows for other people to see like, oh, wait.
• 32:07
  All right. Yeah, I think the initial thing
• 32:10
  that comes to my mind is I, I would feel bad for that person.
• 32:15
  Like here I am judging this person when in reality, like I
• 32:21
  should be like, I'm so grateful I have a nice car, I'm driving,
• 32:25
  I'm healthy. I, I don't have to, I'm not even
• 32:28
  about to be at work at a certain time.
• 32:30
  I'm an entrepreneur. I set my own hours, right?
• 32:31
  That's one of the benefits of doing this.
• 32:33
  But I think it comes from just like genuinely feeling for that
• 32:36
  person and then a little bit upset with myself for why would
• 32:41
  you even think that? Right.
• 32:42
  So now you're judging yourself for judging, right?
• 32:44
  And you can't do that either. Yeah, that's true.
• 32:46
  You can, but it's not healthy, right?
• 32:49
  But so when you get to compassion, one of the
• 32:52
  opportunities we have is to say, oh, you know what, I'm going to
• 32:56
  do better next time. You know, I'm going to be more
• 32:58
  aware. You know, your girlfriend showed
• 33:01
  you something like, hey, is there another way to look at
• 33:03
  this? Right.
• 33:04
  And so a way to to interrupt is just to allow for a breath to be
• 33:08
  there. So notice the energy coming up
• 33:10
  when you're about ready to judge.
• 33:12
  And instead of saying anything, just breathe.
• 33:17
  Say, OK, I think this, but is there another way to look at
• 33:20
  this? As soon as you say, is there
• 33:22
  another way to look at this, the mind will give you other ways.
• 33:25
  It's like, oh, well, he could be going to work.
• 33:27
  Like maybe he just got a phone call and someone's injured and
• 33:30
  he's racing, right? You know, he's just not paying
• 33:32
  attention, right? Maybe he just got some bad news
• 33:34
  and he's in his head and like, thank goodness, like go to
• 33:37
  gratitude. Thank goodness you were aware
• 33:38
  enough not to hit him, right? Because that would have been bad
• 33:41
  for everybody. And then say a prayer, like,
• 33:43
  Hey, bless this guy. You know, God, go with this guy,
• 33:46
  you know, keep him safe because he's not he's not thinking.
• 33:48
  He's not being aware right now. So what are so you shift and all
• 33:52
  the and you did it. So next time you just do it
• 33:56
  better, right? Because now you're more aware.
• 34:00
  What's the what's the benefit of walking around having that
• 34:03
  attitude or perspective? Let's just say for a founder
• 34:06
  entrepreneur listening right now, why does it matter to them?
• 34:09
  So when someone's centered and, and they're fully aligned with
• 34:14
  who they've truly are, there's, there's a divine connection
• 34:20
  where you become aware of things that are beyond what normal
• 34:25
  intelligence would be aware of. So a salesperson who does this
• 34:32
  might meditate for 15 minutes in the afternoon.
• 34:36
  And the intention of the meditation is like, hey, where
• 34:39
  do I spend my time this afternoon?
• 34:41
  And while they're meditating, they see three names, right?
• 34:44
  It's like, OK, what do I do with these names?
• 34:46
  Call them, pick up the phone, call them.
• 34:48
  Turns out just got three meetings right.
• 34:51
  So did they. How did they know to call them
• 34:54
  now if they just went through the busyness of Oh well, I have
• 34:56
  this list to go through or I have you know, my boss needs me
• 34:59
  to do XYZ and they didn't pause to center.
• 35:02
  They would have missed the insight, but they know like we
• 35:05
  know beyond knowing and another spider man reference.
• 35:08
  You know how Spider Man builds the web and there's the Spidey
• 35:11
  sense and the kind of you can kind of sense.
• 35:13
  We have that intuition, you know, and it becomes active and
• 35:18
  innate within everybody is this inner guidance system.
• 35:21
  It's really, it's legit just like Agps, but most people don't
• 35:26
  have it active. And if it's not active, there
• 35:30
  are ways to activate it. If it is active, it's going to
• 35:33
  lead to stuff where people have insight, they've got foresight.
• 35:36
  You know, if someone can see four steps ahead, suddenly
• 35:39
  they're able to see 12 steps ahead.
• 35:41
  So it expands, you know, capacity.
• 35:44
  Plus if you're in a centered state, you're going to align
• 35:46
  with people who are in a centered state and your
• 35:49
  collaborative efforts are going to be amplified.
• 35:52
  So if you create from anger, that ultimately has to end and
• 35:55
  it'll end destructively. But if you create from love and
• 35:59
  you create collaborative, collaboratively with others that
• 36:02
  are in that space, you're going to find that what you can create
• 36:07
  will have a faster rhythm to it. It'll have more impact and it'll
• 36:12
  be more fun. You'll enjoy the journey a lot
• 36:15
  more. So for an entrepreneur, there's
• 36:17
  endless possibilities of what it could be, but the essence is if
• 36:22
  you are able to stay in that aligned state, if that inner
• 36:24
  guidance system is active, you're going to come into the
• 36:28
  uniqueness of who you are. And that's going to be pretty
• 36:31
  special. And still, even then, you're
• 36:34
  only part of the whole, right? You can't build a company by
• 36:36
  yourself. You know that's going to be
• 36:38
  meaningful. You're going to work with
• 36:40
  others. So it's it's like, what if you
• 36:43
  create a culture like that, that's a powerful dynamic, you
• 36:46
  know, and that's why, you know, this, this book Awakening Your
• 36:49
  Optimal Workforce that I wrote, you know, it talks about the 10
• 36:52
  elements of well-being, which is something that we have an
• 36:55
  assessment in the program and all this with optimal being.
• 36:58
  It's like, hey, if you can, if you can foster a culture that
• 37:04
  recognizes how to bring someone into the center of who they are
• 37:09
  and let go of some of the stuff that's pulling them back.
• 37:13
  You now fuel your organization and you give them a great gift
• 37:16
  because it's not going to affect them just at work.
• 37:19
  It's going to affect them at home.
• 37:20
  And relationships are going to be stronger and last beyond what
• 37:25
  most relationships last today. And you know, there's there to
• 37:27
  be better parents, better children.
• 37:30
  You know, there's better human beings in the community.
• 37:33
  Some of the stuff when you talk through it seems like just, I
• 37:36
  don't want to say common sense, but it's just like, it's very
• 37:40
  simple, but it's not easy. It's like some of the stuff you
• 37:43
  can look at people and patterns and yourself and others and you
• 37:46
  can say, well, this is not good for you.
• 37:49
  This is not good to think like this.
• 37:50
  This is not a good behavior that's serving you.
• 37:53
  But then it's just hard in practice for certain people is
• 37:55
  that they, they hold on to the, you know, it's the fear we
• 37:59
  talked about. Is it the comfortability to do
• 38:01
  you see people making bad choices every single day?
• 38:04
  Or you see AI talk to a lot of entrepreneurs that like, I feel
• 38:08
  like they're just slaving away their life and they're missing
• 38:12
  out on all these opportunities with family or kids or just to
• 38:15
  do something they really enjoy. And they're like scale, scale,
• 38:18
  scale, grow, grow, grow. And I'm all about growth.
• 38:22
  I think you need to grow as a person and evolve.
• 38:25
  But sometimes it feels like that's like the centerpiece of
• 38:28
  everything. There is like, I've no time
• 38:29
  because I'm just constantly doing this or traveling or this.
• 38:32
  And it's like they don't have to do that.
• 38:34
  Like they have money in the bank, they have a good business,
• 38:38
  like they can continue to grow. And then they just Add all these
• 38:40
  other things and it's like they create this life they don't even
• 38:43
  love anymore. What's the freaking point?
• 38:45
  Yeah, that's a shame, you know, and that's true, though.
• 38:48
  There's a lot of people who have significant dysfunction.
• 38:54
  And then there's this hope that, you know, OK, either the drug is
• 39:00
  the business, the ambition, right, which keeps the pain
• 39:03
  away. But once that person sells their
• 39:08
  company, once they get to a certain level where, you know,
• 39:11
  they're not as significant in the business or whatever it
• 39:14
  might be, it's a, it's a point of reckoning.
• 39:18
  And that's when the crash ultimately comes.
• 39:20
  So that's where they need support.
• 39:23
  Interrupt somebody like that and say, well, you should do it this
• 39:26
  way. It's not going to go very far.
• 39:28
  You know, someone has to self realize like, hey, look, I'm,
• 39:31
  I'm not enjoying it. Or, you know, the relationships
• 39:34
  fall apart or you know, you know, if someone has a strong
• 39:37
  faith background, you know, someone taught me years ago and
• 39:40
  it's so true initially, if, if there's a change, if you're, if
• 39:44
  the core of you, the essence of you wants to change something in
• 39:47
  your life, it'll come as a whisper.
• 39:50
  It'll come as a nudge and if you're going so hard and fast
• 39:54
  towards something to get something and you ignore it, it
• 39:58
  gets louder and louder and louder and there's countless
• 40:01
  people who they wait until the crash.
• 40:04
  They lose their business, they lose their families, they lose
• 40:06
  everything. And then it's like, OK, now
• 40:09
  what? Right.
• 40:10
  And then they rebuild. I will that's unfortunate.
• 40:14
  Or they or they get not lose everything, but they gain
• 40:17
  everything. They become a billionaire and
• 40:20
  then they think, well. What's next?
• 40:24
  Right. And there's an emptiness if they
• 40:26
  didn't go there aligned. What do you say to the people
• 40:29
  that just are like, I love working 24/7, hustling.
• 40:33
  It's just who I am. It's who I am, Mark.
• 40:35
  I just got to work all the time. Man, it's great.
• 40:38
  You know, go for it if someone's happy and maybe, and there's
• 40:43
  seasons too. I, I call it the in breath and
• 40:45
  the out breath of life. So some people on the external,
• 40:49
  the out breath of life, they're in that mode.
• 40:52
  And so if they're in the go, go, go, go, maybe they got really
• 40:55
  aligned and clear on what they wanted and it's just go time
• 40:58
  and, and in order to fulfill what's important for them in
• 41:02
  that stage of life, they got to go.
• 41:04
  But at some point, there's got to be an in breath or you can't
• 41:06
  exhale your whole life, you know, And so there's got to be
• 41:09
  that recognition, like what's important to that person?
• 41:12
  You know, how do they regenerate energy?
• 41:15
  How do they, how do they keep it going?
• 41:16
  Because ultimately it can, it can crash in a horrible way, one
• 41:21
  way or the other. And so we want to make sure that
• 41:23
  people are armed with it. That's why what I went through
• 41:26
  when I sold my business, I went through a crash, you know, nine
• 41:30
  months later, ended up in the psych ward and three years
• 41:32
  navigated a mental health challenge until I found this
• 41:36
  stuff and like, wait, who am I? How do I stay healthy, right?
• 41:41
  What does that look like? And I got fully healthy without
• 41:44
  the medication and all that. And so then I started teaching
• 41:47
  others. It's like, wait, what if I could
• 41:50
  have gone to myself when I was at my most stressed building the
• 41:54
  company and asked just a few questions like, Hey, why are you
• 41:57
  doing this? That's a great question.
• 41:59
  I'm doing it for XYZ. It's like, OK, well, when you
• 42:02
  get to XYZ, what would be true? Then this will be, you know, and
• 42:06
  not there's a there's a whole storyline, right?
• 42:09
  And when, when it starts to unravel, we could see it.
• 42:11
  We could we could see it unravel before us.
• 42:13
  Now we look at like, OK, would you be willing to challenge
• 42:19
  that? You're right.
• 42:22
  Be wrong for just a few minutes. And if you could be wrong for
• 42:25
  just a few minutes, let's play. And we start unpacking some of
• 42:29
  the reasons why they're doing what they're doing.
• 42:30
  When they get to the place of, Oh my goodness, it doesn't mean
• 42:34
  they stopped building their company.
• 42:36
  It means they start building it from a centre place.
• 42:39
  There we go. And now it's more fun.
• 42:41
  Now it's aligned again, right? Same business, same
• 42:44
  relationship, same whatever. Doesn't have to change.
• 42:48
  It could, but doesn't have to. But the entrance of who that
• 42:53
  person is, who's building it, they're going to start coming
• 42:57
  into those meetings differently. They're going to start leading
• 43:01
  differently, demanding different things of people and recognizing
• 43:05
  that their own needs are worthy of attention and give it to
• 43:08
  themselves. A.
• 43:09
  Lot of good stuff you said there.
• 43:10
  I even I'm someone that likes to work.
• 43:12
  I mean, I work pretty much every single morning, even on
• 43:13
  weekends. You know, I'm getting up my
• 43:15
  coffee. I'm doing.
• 43:16
  I love work too. Before that one right here,
• 43:21
  blooper. We keep that stuff in though.
• 43:23
  We don't even, we don't even take it out.
• 43:24
  I just dropped my pen and I went to Mark and he grabbed it for
• 43:26
  me. Yeah.
• 43:28
  I mean, I, I, I love work. Like, I love being productive.
• 43:31
  I love doing something I'm passionate about.
• 43:32
  I love doing this podcast. I love serving my clients.
• 43:35
  I love writing, making content. And I think like, I'm very
• 43:38
  motivated by that. It's exciting, fulfilling for
• 43:40
  me. I just think I, there's also the
• 43:44
  other side of like, I don't want to become a slave to my
• 43:47
  business. I don't want to become tied to
• 43:50
  something where I initially went into this to have control, to
• 43:53
  build a lifestyle. I want to be able to express my
• 43:56
  creativity and do something I really believe in to then.
• 43:59
  I'm just tied to it so strongly now that I can't move.
• 44:02
  Yeah. So now notice the words you're
• 44:04
  using. And a lot of entrepreneurs use
• 44:06
  these words. You said I don't want, I don't.
• 44:08
  I don't want to be tied down. I don't want this.
• 44:11
  It's like Tony Robbins talks about this as well, but stop
• 44:16
  saying what you don't want. Start saying what you want
• 44:18
  because your brain doesn't know the difference.
• 44:20
  So you've got to be really conscious, conscious, conscious
• 44:24
  of the words that you choose. And if someone's not aligned
• 44:28
  internally, they're going to have competing words.
• 44:30
  What's why I want this, but I don't want this.
• 44:32
  And there's a battle and be like planning a vacation and saying I
• 44:36
  want to go to New York, but I also want to go to California
• 44:38
  and I don't want to go to Texas. And suddenly I'm looking up
• 44:40
  flights for Texas, New York and California.
• 44:43
  It's like, why am I doing that? How about pick one, right?
• 44:47
  And let's choose like, what is it we really want in this phase
• 44:50
  of life right now, you know, for the next three months, six
• 44:53
  months, 12 months, you know, today.
• 44:55
  And so when we unpack that and start recognizing, well, and the
• 44:59
  only reason you know what you don't want is because you're
• 45:02
  butting up against some of this stuff.
• 45:04
  So then it's just time. It's not throw everything out.
• 45:06
  It's just pause and say, OK, what is it I'm not liking about
• 45:11
  the current situation? What would I like to be
• 45:14
  different? And then, and this is the magic
• 45:18
  surrender it almost like you would order something on Amazon.
• 45:22
  You surrender because you don't know how to do it.
• 45:25
  You could sit down for weeks and you'll never figure it out.
• 45:28
  But if you surrender and this is where the divine relationship,
• 45:32
  you know, really takes hold because we tap into something
• 45:34
  beyond who we are as as the individuated, you know, person.
• 45:38
  We start to tap into a healthier, holier, purer, more
• 45:44
  vast energy. And when we can, when we can get
• 45:48
  to that divine relationship. One of the things that starts
• 45:51
  happening in is once you put it out there, you'll get insights
• 45:54
  about how, right, rather than figuring out how a lot of people
• 45:58
  try to figure it out. I got to figure out how to get
• 46:01
  more time. It's like, well, you know why
• 46:04
  you move into why? Why do you want that?
• 46:07
  Well, it's too hard. It's too stressful.
• 46:10
  You know, I didn't think it was going to take this long,
• 46:12
  whatever those things are. And so you move into, OK, what
• 46:15
  is it I do want? Well, I want my life to be such
• 46:18
  that after 5:00, I'm done. OK, that's cool.
• 46:23
  Start naming it and and putting it out there.
• 46:26
  Even if you don't know all the parts, put the parts out there
• 46:28
  that you want. It's like, hey, this is what I
• 46:30
  want. Write it down and watch, because
• 46:33
  insights will start to come in order to get you what you want.
• 46:36
  Now, what would you say to the founder that says, great, Mark?
• 46:40
  But I have kids. I have to pay for college.
• 46:42
  I've got a mortgage. I've got to save for retirement.
• 46:45
  I've got to pay him, you know, my employees.
• 46:47
  What do you say to those founders that do think I I've
• 46:50
  literally got, I like, I would love to do that stuff, but Mark,
• 46:53
  I can't. I got a business to run.
• 46:54
  And maybe that was you at some point, I don't know.
• 46:56
  But what would you? What would be your advice to
• 46:58
  that person? Well, so there's a process that
• 47:01
  we teach called goal cancelling. And the reason is if if we hold
• 47:05
  goals that are rooted in fear, hostility, they're going to be
• 47:09
  negative and destructive. They will lead to negative and
• 47:11
  destructive outcomes. So if the fear is, Oh my gosh,
• 47:13
  if I don't do this, I won't be able to put my kids through
• 47:15
  college. That's a fear based energy.
• 47:18
  And if you create a goal from that energy, it won't work,
• 47:22
  it'll fail. And so we teach canceling the
• 47:25
  goal. It's like, OK, and people say,
• 47:26
  well, I don't want to cancel the goal.
• 47:27
  I want to build this like it's not canceled forever.
• 47:30
  You can always reset it. But by canceling the goal, it
• 47:33
  releases the energy. So let's take the the one that
• 47:39
  you're just sharing and let's say someone out there is dealing
• 47:42
  with that. All you have to do is say I
• 47:44
  canceled my goal to pay for my kids college education, right?
• 47:48
  I cancel my goal to pay my employees, right?
• 47:51
  And that's so counterintuitive. But if you actually do it and
• 47:56
  cancel the goal and breathe and let the emotional charges that
• 47:59
  are underneath come up because they will tension in the neck,
• 48:03
  the head sweats. You know, people are going to
• 48:06
  have an emotional response when they start canceling goals that
• 48:08
  they really want get to then a centered place, invite love and
• 48:12
  invite God in. You know, invite, invite the
• 48:16
  essence that knows into that space and say, OK, God or
• 48:21
  however you, you would do it. But I would do that.
• 48:24
  I'd say, all right, God, here I am.
• 48:26
  I've let go all my goals. Now what?
• 48:29
  OK, so now we're coming from love, right?
• 48:32
  Because so because we got centered, we got into that love
• 48:34
  space. So now we start saying, OK, well
• 48:37
  actually I chose to have kids and I'm happy I have kids,
• 48:43
  right? Move to gratitude and I want to
• 48:48
  have the education so that they can have their dreams come true,
• 48:54
  right? So I want to save the money.
• 48:56
  And so in order to save the money, I want to make the money.
• 49:00
  Oh wait, I actually want these things like I chose these and I
• 49:02
  want these. So now it's not a burden
• 49:04
  anymore. I use the story of the parent
• 49:07
  who has a child and complaints about changing the diaper.
• 49:11
  It's like, what if it weren't? It's your turn, honey.
• 49:14
  I changed last time and kind of this burden energy, but it was I
• 49:19
  get to change my kids diaper. I have a kid, I've got a baby.
• 49:24
  And if I don't change the diaper, they're going to have a
• 49:26
  rash. And if they have a rash, they're
• 49:28
  going to be in pain. And I actually want my child to
• 49:33
  feel really comfortable. So I choose consciously to
• 49:37
  change the diaper. I get to so the have TOS start
• 49:41
  to shift over. And all it is is a mental shift
• 49:45
  to I get to, so I get to go to work, I get to build this
• 49:50
  podcast, I get to pay employees, you know, I get to choose who
• 49:54
  works with me. I get to do that.
• 49:58
  I get to save the money, you know, I get to blah, blah, blah,
• 50:01
  blah, blah. And so while while we shift the
• 50:04
  energy, we shift the goals maybe a little bit.
• 50:07
  So when you, when you get to that place and you start
• 50:10
  realizing that your goals were potentially created from fear
• 50:15
  and hostility, you may change just two words in the goal.
• 50:20
  And those two words change everything.
• 50:25
  Going back to what you said earlier, you sold your business
• 50:27
  and then you ended up in a psych ward.
• 50:29
  How does that happen? How does that happen?
• 50:34
  I mean, what, what drove you to to that place?
• 50:36
  Because that must have been a dark place, obviously, or a an
• 50:39
  interesting time. Yeah.
• 50:41
  So for me, so a that period of my life, very challenging, you
• 50:47
  know, very, very challenging. But you sold a business on the
• 50:51
  outside. People are like Mark's killing
• 50:53
  it. He sold his business.
• 50:54
  What kind of business was it? Tech company, yeah, built it up
• 50:57
  to we're just about 20 million in sales, 150 people.
• 51:02
  And I didn't own the whole thing, but I sold my interest in
• 51:04
  it. And one of the things that
• 51:08
  happened is all the suppression of what I, I didn't realize just
• 51:17
  how much stress it was. And so once I could breathe
• 51:22
  without that stress, the energy just came crashing in.
• 51:28
  And then it was like, well, who am I if I'm not the CEO or the
• 51:32
  founder, you know, and I'm not being invited to the things I
• 51:36
  was invited to. And people aren't valuing my
• 51:38
  opinion the way they were. And I don't have control over
• 51:42
  something that has influence in the world.
• 51:44
  And it's just there was just collapse.
• 51:47
  And so I sought it in other places and ultimately got to a
• 51:52
  place where I was having some really it was more so.
• 51:57
  So here's the here's the issue. The world calls it mental
• 52:00
  illness, OK? What it was is a suppressed
• 52:05
  transformation. It was the Caterpillar that was
• 52:08
  taking the nectar instead of allowing for the silk pad to be
• 52:14
  created in the transformation happened.
• 52:15
  I was protecting my family or me, the business, everything
• 52:21
  from that change. I was afraid.
• 52:24
  And so when I could no longer suppress it anymore, suddenly I
• 52:28
  was going through it and it looked insane.
• 52:32
  I mean literally insane. Walls are moving.
• 52:34
  I was hearing voices and it was, it was pretty wild for like over
• 52:39
  a week until I got hauled out of the house by paramedics towards
• 52:43
  of the psych ward. Really.
• 52:45
  Yeah, Yeah. And then?
• 52:46
  Was it drinking alcohol or drugs or what?
• 52:50
  Just a mental breakdown. No, it wasn't a mental
• 52:53
  breakdown, it was a spiritual emergence.
• 52:58
  So I mean literally imagine so. So here would be another way of
• 53:03
  sharing it. The Caterpillar realizes that it
• 53:06
  was suppressing itself. And it's like, holy crap, I've
• 53:09
  just wasted all this freaking time.
• 53:11
  I'm going to put everything in. I'm going to build this soap pad
• 53:14
  in like 2 minutes. And just like trying to race
• 53:17
  right and then getting getting into the chrysalis process like,
• 53:21
  OK, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up.
• 53:22
  And like cha, it's called storming the gates and spiritual
• 53:24
  language. And I had some experiences that
• 53:29
  were availing to me the awareness that we are not who we
• 53:34
  think, who we at all, you know, from the standpoint of just
• 53:40
  physical bodies who come here and do a thing.
• 53:42
  And we've got these brains and like go through the motions like
• 53:45
  we're so much more than that. And when we connect with that,
• 53:48
  it's like, wow, there's a whole universe of insight and
• 53:54
  awareness and, and cognition beyond what I ever thought
• 53:58
  possible. And suddenly I'm getting thrown
• 54:02
  into that without any training. And so it was and no one around
• 54:05
  me understood it. And so the only Ave. for
• 54:08
  something like that in that sort of landscape is the behavioral
• 54:12
  health facility at the hospital. You go to the ER and they put
• 54:15
  you in there and then medicate you and because that's what they
• 54:19
  know how to do. But it never has healed anybody,
• 54:23
  you know. And So what what I prayed for
• 54:26
  after an out of body experience while I was doing a TE DX talk,
• 54:30
  which was pretty trippy. I prayed and I'm like, hey, God,
• 54:33
  if there's a way to heal this, show me the way.
• 54:34
  And my hand lifted off my lap and I grabbed a book that was at
• 54:37
  the side of my bed and my hands just like this open to a certain
• 54:40
  page. I started reading and it was a
• 54:42
  story of this woman. She was a 16th century Mystic.
• 54:48
  Her name is Teresa of Avivia, Saint Teresa.
• 54:51
  And I read about experiences that I had, and I started
• 54:56
  laughing. And my wife's like, what's so
• 54:59
  funny? And because nothing was really
• 55:01
  funny at that time, there's a lot of drama going on.
• 55:03
  And, and I said, well, if Saint Teresa were alive today, she
• 55:06
  would have been locked up too. And I had hope for the first
• 55:09
  time, like, maybe this isn't so bad.
• 55:11
  Maybe there's a path through this.
• 55:13
  And it happened after that prayer.
• 55:14
  If there's a way to heal this, show me the way.
• 55:16
  And instantly, I mean, instantly, my hand moved.
• 55:18
  I didn't move it. My hand moved.
• 55:20
  Like something in me moved my hand.
• 55:22
  And it wasn't the first time that it happened.
• 55:25
  Lots of stories about that, but it's just, it was so trippy.
• 55:27
  I'm. Going to get into that in a
• 55:28
  second. Yeah.
• 55:29
  The spiritual stuff, yeah. If someone's listening to all
• 55:33
  this and maybe they're a founder, entrepreneur, aspiring,
• 55:36
  whatever it is, or maybe just anybody, regardless of what you
• 55:39
  do, who you are, and they're interested in this type of
• 55:42
  stuff, what is 1 practice that they can do on their own that is
• 55:47
  not like reading, consuming, that kind of stuff, but just
• 55:50
  what's a healthy practice that they can do daily to improve?
• 55:52
  And then what would be one book or content that you'd have them
• 55:56
  consume? Maybe it's one of yours here,
• 55:57
  but looking for those. Better be one of.
• 55:59
  Them, yeah, I mean, you got a stack here, so it's got to be
• 56:01
  something there written a few, yeah.
• 56:04
  Yeah. So the so number one is to
• 56:07
  meditate, prayer, meditation. It's to take every day at least
• 56:14
  15 minutes and just sit there and just sit there.
• 56:17
  That's hard to do. Now I do it with a notepad.
• 56:20
  Maybe I shouldn't say that though, 'cause me saying that's
• 56:22
  hard to do is just rewiring the story.
• 56:23
  That's not true. Yeah, it's easy to do, it's fun
• 56:25
  to do, it's better. It's beneficial for.
• 56:27
  It's beneficial, yeah, Even if you did 10 minutes, like start
• 56:31
  out with what you can, you know, if you could, if you could only
• 56:33
  sit there for 5 minutes, sit for five.
• 56:35
  Now, are you thinking about things when you're sitting
• 56:37
  there? Is it hard 'cause it's like?
• 56:38
  I would say there's a journey to to go on, you know?
• 56:42
  No, right now when I do it, my brain's empty.
• 56:46
  Wow. And I just breathe.
• 56:47
  If thought comes in, what do you just shoot it out?
• 56:50
  Nope, just let it come in. And then what if it?
• 56:53
  How does your mind not go down the rabbit hole?
• 56:55
  It's like a thought, Oh, I gotta do this today.
• 56:57
  It's like. Yeah, it's like, you know,
• 57:00
  acknowledgement and that's why the pad of paper.
• 57:02
  So if something does come up where it's calling your
• 57:05
  attention, just write it down because then you'll know, OK,
• 57:08
  I'm going to, I'm going to see it when I get out of the
• 57:10
  meditation. Right.
• 57:11
  So you don't you want to have that to support you?
• 57:16
  But then what? Like what are you telling your
• 57:18
  mind? Just think about nothing.
• 57:19
  Think about nothing. Just so there be it be present
• 57:22
  and in existence. I'm trying to think, 'cause you
• 57:23
  kind of have to tell yourself something, right?
• 57:25
  Yeah. So one way of doing it, and so
• 57:27
  they teach this in Transcendental Meditation where
• 57:30
  you repeat a word or a sound. Actually in transcendental, it's
• 57:34
  a sound. It's not even like a real word,
• 57:37
  but which I've tried. I did that because I, I've
• 57:40
  practiced like, OK, what, what works for me, I like repeating a
• 57:47
  phrase that's meaningful to me from the spiritual center.
• 57:51
  And so I'm not going to even share what it is because you got
• 57:54
  to have your own, your own phrase.
• 57:56
  But if you have a sound, a phrase, something that you just
• 58:00
  mentally repeat, but you don't say it.
• 58:02
  Like you're not moving your tongue, you're not, you're not
• 58:04
  moving your lips. It's in your mind and you
• 58:06
  breathe and just repeat, repeat, repeat.
• 58:10
  And over time, what will happen is you'll forget to say it and
• 58:13
  your mind will go somewhere. And if it does, no judgement,
• 58:17
  just start saying it again. And that becomes kind of an
• 58:20
  anchor point. That's what they're teaching.
• 58:21
  And no, Transcendental Meditation is a whole ceremony
• 58:23
  and things that they do, but the essence is give yourself the
• 58:28
  time. There's a tool that I like,
• 58:33
  great technology. It's called Vital Neuro and it's
• 58:38
  actually one of our sponsors for podcasts and it's a headset with
• 58:41
  real time EEG reads your brain and it understands the frequency
• 58:46
  and tone for your body that it likes the most.
• 58:49
  And mixed with music, it gives that tone when you're in the
• 58:52
  proper frequency. So there's meditation, there's
• 58:55
  different protocols. There's meditation, relax,
• 58:58
  perform if you're going to do athletic stuff, focus if you're
• 59:02
  going to do work and sleep. And then there's advanced ones
• 59:06
  for medical. But there's you put this thing
• 59:08
  on, listen to the music for 15 minutes and that's another way
• 59:12
  to do it. Or just.
• 59:13
  What's the value prop of doing that meditation?
• 59:16
  Yeah. So the most significant value
• 59:19
  prop is you will reconnect with who you are, guaranteed you
• 59:26
  will. And when you do, you're going to
• 59:29
  get those, you know, the shower moments once in a while, It's
• 59:31
  like, oh, wait, yeah. Yeah, Yeah.
• 59:33
  Those are great. Yeah.
• 59:34
  So that happens. Yeah.
• 59:35
  But you intentionally put yourself into position for it to
• 59:39
  happen, right? And so it's recommended in
• 59:42
  meditation, you do it at the beginning of the day, the end of
• 59:44
  the day, right. So before you go home, you know,
• 59:46
  it's a great reset, you know, 15 minutes do meditation again,
• 59:51
  you'll think of things like to do the next day.
• 59:54
  You'll you'll think of things that maybe you were going to do
• 59:56
  that you need to close out before you leave that day.
• 59:59
  And then you go home clear, you go into your family and you're
• 1:00:01
  in a you're in a clear space. So I think that's one of the
• 1:00:04
  most powerful is just time in quiet.
• 1:00:07
  No phone, love that man nothing. If it's music, it's something
• 1:00:11
  like a vital neural, where it's just where it's just really
• 1:00:14
  getting you into the proper brain state.
• 1:00:16
  Think about it there, Dick, 'cause I think for me and I
• 1:00:19
  think a lot of people, you get in your car, you throw on a
• 1:00:21
  podcast or a video or what you're going to listen to or
• 1:00:23
  you're cooking something, you put on music or it's like we
• 1:00:26
  sometimes we just don't give our ourselves the space to just sit
• 1:00:30
  there and think. Be with yourself, be present.
• 1:00:34
  And I think that's kind of what you're doing.
• 1:00:35
  But I think there's opportunities probably
• 1:00:37
  throughout the day too, in a less structured way to just just
• 1:00:40
  be, yeah, you know, it's really important.
• 1:00:43
  We need, we need it, you know, because otherwise we're ruled by
• 1:00:46
  a list or exactly we're just reacting to everything else,
• 1:00:49
  right? What would the one book be if
• 1:00:51
  someone's interested in this stuff and they're like, man, I
• 1:00:53
  need to get back. I want to dive into this stuff.
• 1:00:56
  All right, so, so if someone's coming from a business
• 1:00:59
  standpoint, I would say this, this book Awakening your optimal
• 1:01:03
  workforce. It's a business fable.
• 1:01:05
  It goes through these 10 elements that we measure and it
• 1:01:07
  gives stories of what's it like when it's at its worst, what's
• 1:01:11
  it like when it's at its best. So you can see the contrast of
• 1:01:14
  some of these things. So this is a, this is a, this is
• 1:01:19
  a good one from, you know, for business leaders, right?
• 1:01:22
  If they, and it's, this one's more secularly written, right?
• 1:01:26
  So it doesn't have the faith elements in it, but they're
• 1:01:31
  they're underpinned in there, but they're not brought out
• 1:01:33
  because the elements are there no matter what and.
• 1:01:37
  They can pick that up on Amazon or where.
• 1:01:40
  Yeah, on Amazon and there's a, it's also on what's Audible, so
• 1:01:46
  you listen to it. There's three, there's three
• 1:01:49
  voices. Mine a guy does the guy's voice
• 1:01:53
  voices of the characters and there's a female that does the
• 1:01:56
  female voices. If you're a business owner and
• 1:01:59
  you're stuck and you can't grow revenue or you feel like you're
• 1:02:02
  just kind of like treading the same, you're in the same place
• 1:02:05
  over and over for last few years.
• 1:02:07
  Is it usually just usually come down to the things that we've
• 1:02:09
  talked about today? Is there anything that we
• 1:02:11
  haven't touched on that you think is important?
• 1:02:13
  And early in the OR in the beginning of the episode, I said
• 1:02:15
  happiest, most engaged, most optimally performed people all
• 1:02:19
  have these things in common. Anything that we didn't touch
• 1:02:22
  that we should before I move on to the faith.
• 1:02:24
  So the stuck parts interesting. So stuck could be, I mean any
• 1:02:28
  any number of possibilities. But if I were to share something
• 1:02:33
  that someone could try, I would ask what's the timeline for
• 1:02:37
  creating what you want to create?
• 1:02:38
  It's the most underrepresented question that entrepreneurs
• 1:02:44
  have. They'll get a vision for doing
• 1:02:46
  something and then they'll feel frustrated because they're not,
• 1:02:49
  it's not making progress. So just check in and say, OK,
• 1:02:53
  what is the timing for this? And you might get an insight and
• 1:02:57
  meditation is a great way to do it.
• 1:02:58
  You might get insight. Three years, it's like 03 years.
• 1:03:01
  I thought it was going to be 18 months, right?
• 1:03:02
  So now all of a sudden three years changes your mindset.
• 1:03:06
  It's like, OK, well, what has to happen in those three years in
• 1:03:08
  order to create this, You know, now, now it looks different.
• 1:03:13
  So time time's a big deal for anything.
• 1:03:16
  I mean that I've seen people go from insane to sane just by
• 1:03:20
  shifting time. And there's elements where
• 1:03:24
  sometimes in our psyche we'll feel this pressure of creating
• 1:03:30
  something be like creating a baby in four months.
• 1:03:34
  Like, why would you even attempt to do that?
• 1:03:36
  We know it takes nine months to create a baby.
• 1:03:38
  So let's let's nurture that child the best we can.
• 1:03:42
  Well, the same thing with a business.
• 1:03:44
  If you get an idea and suddenly you're thinking, well, I've got
• 1:03:46
  to have this done in three months.
• 1:03:47
  Like, why would you think that? You know, challenge it and see
• 1:03:51
  what, well, what's the opportunity really presenting
• 1:03:55
  itself and what's the timing? I want to read something that I
• 1:04:00
  saw on your LinkedIn page under the O Coalition.
• 1:04:03
  You said one day in prayer the Lord asked me to start the O
• 1:04:08
  Coalition, which began as a small prayer group.
• 1:04:11
  Months into it, God revealed the next action.
• 1:04:14
  Write the lowly prophet correct. What followed was miraculous.
• 1:04:19
  A nine day download of the book that launched this life Giving
• 1:04:22
  series. More books to continue to come
• 1:04:25
  with 11 planned in total. That's a pretty powerful.
• 1:04:30
  I mean, you talked a little bit about your hand kind of being
• 1:04:33
  moved. There it is, right?
• 1:04:34
  Yeah, there it is. Very cool.
• 1:04:36
  Talk to me about that experience, you know, because I
• 1:04:38
  think we've all had maybe moments in life where you feel
• 1:04:40
  like something else was moving us.
• 1:04:42
  But I'm curious, was it you you physically heard something?
• 1:04:46
  Was it like you're, I mean, well, how did that show up?
• 1:04:48
  And then I've got some more questions on the face stuff.
• 1:04:51
  Yeah, so. And for anyone who's not had
• 1:04:53
  these kinds of experiences, it might sound kind of loopy, but
• 1:04:57
  anyone who has had them would be like, oh, yeah, I get it.
• 1:04:59
  Yeah. You know, But just because you
• 1:05:01
  haven't had the experience doesn't mean it's not real,
• 1:05:04
  right? But it doesn't also mean that
• 1:05:07
  you'll have experiences just like this.
• 1:05:09
  You'll have experiences, though, that will be best for you.
• 1:05:11
  So when someone goes through that transformation, it'd be
• 1:05:15
  like planting an apple seed in a fertile ground and suddenly it's
• 1:05:21
  growing. Well, as that's growing, a keen
• 1:05:25
  observer would say, well, hey, that's going to produce apples.
• 1:05:28
  We we get it. Well, if you look at spiritual
• 1:05:30
  gifts, there are gifts like that.
• 1:05:33
  So what happened was it was, it didn't start in 2023.
• 1:05:39
  It started long before that, that I started kind of hearing
• 1:05:43
  God speak to me. Now are you hearing an actual
• 1:05:46
  voice? Yeah.
• 1:05:48
  Really. Yeah.
• 1:05:49
  Does it sound deep? Does it sound high pitched?
• 1:05:51
  Does it or is it even like that type of a voice?
• 1:05:53
  Is it more just your own kind of thoughts or?
• 1:05:55
  Yeah, so the, the journey I went through on this was the, it was
• 1:06:00
  initially almost like someone else was talking to my head.
• 1:06:04
  That was 2006 when I was in my office because I built the
• 1:06:09
  company between 98 and 2010. The company's still running, but
• 1:06:12
  I just I'm not in it anymore. Now, are you religious at this
• 1:06:15
  point at all, or are you practicing?
• 1:06:17
  Yeah, yeah. Grew up Catholic, went to
• 1:06:19
  Catholic schools and kids go to Catholic schools.
• 1:06:22
  I love going, I love church. But I also, it's the, I'm very
• 1:06:27
  practical with the application of religion because it's
• 1:06:32
  intended that way and most people miss that.
• 1:06:36
  So it's the practical application that's inspired
• 1:06:39
  these stories. But it was 2006 and I heard this
• 1:06:41
  inner voice say, Mark, it's time to sell the company and become a
• 1:06:44
  priest, which is a Catholic. It's like, I started laughing
• 1:06:48
  because I married with five kids and I, it was so odd to hear
• 1:06:54
  the, the voice And I, I said, God, if this is you, you're
• 1:06:56
  going to have to show me the way.
• 1:06:59
  And like clockwork, I was shown the way and it led to selling
• 1:07:02
  the business. Now, I wasn't conscious the
• 1:07:05
  whole time. It was sort of very much in
• 1:07:11
  hindsight even that I look back, it's like, oh, wait a minute,
• 1:07:15
  this happened, you know, But at the time, it was just sort of
• 1:07:18
  this unusual thing. So then it was 2010 and I was on
• 1:07:27
  Thanksgiving break and it was after dinner.
• 1:07:32
  I sat back in the couch and I heard that same voice say, hey,
• 1:07:35
  go, when you get back to the office, just say I'm missing a
• 1:07:41
  step. So one of the critical elements
• 1:07:45
  here, because people have often asked about this hearing like we
• 1:07:49
  hear in different ways. You can hear externally.
• 1:07:52
  And I wasn't hearing externally, although that did happen to me
• 1:07:57
  in 2007. I was going through a very
• 1:07:59
  stressful time and I wrote one of those angry emails in the
• 1:08:04
  middle of the night, didn't send it, went back to bed and I was
• 1:08:07
  saying the rosary and I felt my ear vibrate.
• 1:08:11
  And as I did, one of the things that started to unfold is an
• 1:08:16
  external voice told me, Mark, everything's going to be OK.
• 1:08:21
  And that was trippy. So I'm having these kind of
• 1:08:26
  early experiences of mysticism start to enter into my life.
• 1:08:31
  But it wasn't until 2015 that my son Henry asked me to tell him a
• 1:08:38
  story. And I went and started telling
• 1:08:40
  him a story. Night after night, I would come
• 1:08:42
  up with stories. And one night I heard that same
• 1:08:44
  voice that I'd heard repeatedly say, Mark, don't tell him a
• 1:08:48
  story, allow the story to come. And my lips started to move and
• 1:08:51
  the story came and it was like incredible.
• 1:08:56
  At the end, there is a special moment between my son and I
• 1:08:59
  where I said, Hey, Henry, would you think of that?
• 1:09:03
  And he gave me this thumbs up and he smiled and he said that
• 1:09:06
  was really good dad, but it and then he paused.
• 1:09:10
  But it's just going to get better.
• 1:09:13
  I know you're just learning from is my 9 year old kid.
• 1:09:16
  And I started crying because like, wow, that was like to me,
• 1:09:20
  the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through him, guiding
• 1:09:23
  me. And so then every other time he
• 1:09:26
  asked me to tell him a story, it came just like that.
• 1:09:29
  It was like my lips would move and the story would come.
• 1:09:31
  It was like there was, it wasn't something outside of me speaking
• 1:09:35
  through me. What I've learned about our
• 1:09:38
  creator is God lives within us. You know, the Christ is in US
• 1:09:42
  like it's, it's, it's there. It's a latent part of who we are
• 1:09:46
  awaiting. You know, it's nourishment so
• 1:09:48
  that it can come alive and we can integrate.
• 1:09:51
  So over time, what happened was that voice that seemed like was
• 1:09:56
  talking to me, was talking through me, was talking as me
• 1:10:00
  and it was a progression. And I think I've heard other
• 1:10:03
  people kind of go through a similar progression.
• 1:10:05
  So I think it's a common learning sort of like the spider
• 1:10:09
  man with the web coming out and it's like wild and then it kind
• 1:10:12
  of matures. And then it was 2016 that I
• 1:10:15
  received the first book, which was which was this one awakening
• 1:10:20
  the optimal leader. And literally I wrote the
• 1:10:23
  chapter prompts and was guided to go record it.
• 1:10:25
  So I audio recorded it 90 minutes later.
• 1:10:28
  I had the core of of what this book became.
• 1:10:31
  But this book in prayer, I heard that message like, Hey, Mark,
• 1:10:36
  write the Lily prophet. And I just was so used to it at
• 1:10:39
  that point. I'm like, OK, what's that about?
• 1:10:41
  And then God tells me what it's about and then says, write down
• 1:10:45
  these chapter prompts. There are 18 of them and then
• 1:10:47
  told me start writing in three weeks and schedule 5 hours a day
• 1:10:52
  for 30 days and I did. It was three weeks from that
• 1:10:55
  Thursday to another Thursday at 1:00.
• 1:10:57
  I scheduled it start scheduling everything else out for 30 days
• 1:11:01
  and. You say 5 hours a day.
• 1:11:03
  Five hours a day. That's a long time.
• 1:11:05
  That's that's a good chunk of your day.
• 1:11:07
  Yeah, I well, it's, it's it's not work.
• 1:11:10
  Yeah, It's like more presenting, presenting love.
• 1:11:17
  I'm just receiving it, right? Imagine going to a great movie,
• 1:11:22
  right? Because I wasn't coming up with
• 1:11:24
  it. It was coming through me.
• 1:11:26
  So you go to a great movie, it's like you're not going to get up
• 1:11:28
  in the middle of the movie, right?
• 1:11:30
  Yeah. Unless it's a bad one, so there.
• 1:11:32
  There were chapters right where it'd be like, OK, and then I
• 1:11:36
  finished writing one day and then I'd receive kind of the
• 1:11:39
  opening paragraph for the next day.
• 1:11:41
  So when I came in the next day, it was like I could just keep
• 1:11:44
  going point. So nine days later I had I had
• 1:11:46
  the Lily Prophet and I was wondering like, I mean, it was
• 1:11:50
  it was the best book I'd written that came through me, right.
• 1:11:54
  I give all the glory to God in this.
• 1:11:56
  So essentially you're saying this book is written by God?
• 1:11:59
  Well, the the issue with that is we're imperfect vessels, right?
• 1:12:04
  So as best as God could communicate through a dope like
• 1:12:08
  me, Yeah. But God can only use the raw
• 1:12:13
  material that that he has to work with.
• 1:12:15
  All right. So my language in terms of
• 1:12:19
  vocabulary and abilities and things like that.
• 1:12:22
  But certainly putting words and sentences together in a in a way
• 1:12:27
  that I never would have thought of a guy.
• 1:12:29
  And if I had tried, if you said, Mark, I want you to write a
• 1:12:32
  fiction novel with Jesus as a main character in the novel,
• 1:12:37
  going through, you know, give me a framework leading people
• 1:12:42
  through this, leads people through the Beatitudes in a way
• 1:12:46
  that's really profound as a practice it I'd still be working
• 1:12:51
  on it, right? Like then.
• 1:12:53
  You have to do research for this stuff or did you just know?
• 1:12:56
  I mean, obviously it came through you, but wouldn't a
• 1:12:58
  normal person have to do research because I'm assuming
• 1:13:00
  this is like, or is this this is a not a true story, but it's
• 1:13:04
  based around Jesus and. Is that right?
• 1:13:07
  No, It's a fiction. So it's a fiction.
• 1:13:08
  So. So yes, I did research.
• 1:13:10
  I, I started that research in 2011 when I went through the
• 1:13:14
  insanity and over the course of learning, you know, how to get
• 1:13:19
  healthy and the incorporation of how the Beatitudes lead someone
• 1:13:24
  if they practice them to health and Wellness, that, yeah, I
• 1:13:28
  studied for years and so all that.
• 1:13:32
  And then then the study becomes embodying it, right?
• 1:13:36
  And then the embody meant of it comes out into something that's
• 1:13:40
  productive for other people to tap into.
• 1:13:42
  So I had two things come up in my life that remind me it's it's
• 1:13:46
  not quite this, but it's things that remind me of.
• 1:13:49
  It's a spiritual type moment. One was when I was probably 16
• 1:13:52
  and I was in church, my friend's church.
• 1:13:54
  I've never been to church before my day in my life with my friend
• 1:13:56
  and another friend. We stay the night at his house
• 1:13:58
  Saturday night. Sunday morning we go to church.
• 1:14:01
  And you know, I'm kind of like a screw up kid at this point.
• 1:14:04
  Like I mentioned, like I'm in high school, like I'm just like
• 1:14:06
  smoking weed to get in trouble and like doing dumb shit.
• 1:14:09
  I'm definitely not someone you look at and be like, at that
• 1:14:11
  point, be like, this guy's going places, you know, and this lady,
• 1:14:15
  and they recorded it. I think my mom's site still
• 1:14:18
  might have the recording. They actually recorded the, the
• 1:14:20
  church did the, the service. And this lady, and she wasn't a
• 1:14:24
  pastor, but she was kind of like a leader in the congregation in
• 1:14:27
  the church. And she gets on stage and she
• 1:14:30
  then comes over to me and says, I God just just gave me a
• 1:14:33
  vision. And I'm like, what?
• 1:14:35
  Like I'm thinking like I'm not even super religious that I'm
• 1:14:38
  just like, what I'm almost in disbelief.
• 1:14:41
  And she goes, the vision is you, you're on a field and you're
• 1:14:45
  leading that this team, the football team.
• 1:14:48
  She goes, I don't mean this to be like you're a quarterback or
• 1:14:50
  you play football. I did it.
• 1:14:51
  She's like, but you're leading this team and you're leading
• 1:14:54
  them down the field to the victory.
• 1:14:56
  And I was like, and I still today I'm like, does that like
• 1:15:01
  has that shown up maybe before? Maybe it's something that still
• 1:15:04
  hasn't come. Maybe it's me leading my kids.
• 1:15:06
  I don't know. But that was one.
• 1:15:09
  And then I had another one when I was, and this was like a solo
• 1:15:12
  one. I was coming back from a speech
• 1:15:14
  class. It's like my first public speech
• 1:15:15
  before you go. By the way, so one of the one of
• 1:15:20
  the one of the reasons why some people miss the message is
• 1:15:24
  because we're trained to look at things literally.
• 1:15:30
  And you really need to in spiritual language, look for
• 1:15:33
  what the metaphor is, right? And and lean in on the metaphor.
• 1:15:37
  And so when someone has a word for, for somebody and she's that
• 1:15:40
  bold to come up and share that with you, you know, there's
• 1:15:43
  there's an element of recognizing like, OK, if it's
• 1:15:49
  not literally football, like what could that represent,
• 1:15:52
  right? What does football mean to you?
• 1:15:54
  What does team mean to you? Like what does victory mean to
• 1:15:59
  you know, and start looking at breaking down the components of
• 1:16:02
  it, and then you'll start to connect with what it might have
• 1:16:06
  actually meant. That's good.
• 1:16:09
  Maybe a part of its leading this founder community and bringing
• 1:16:12
  people like you on and getting them to a good place and leading
• 1:16:15
  them down the field. Who knows?
• 1:16:16
  The other one I was just on my way to, I was coming back from
• 1:16:19
  my speech class. I gave a speech from like 15
• 1:16:21
  people. Wasn't even a big deal or
• 1:16:22
  anything, but I came back and I remember just like there was
• 1:16:25
  music on the radio that I remember just almost having this
• 1:16:28
  like vision, like thing where I was speaking to millions of
• 1:16:31
  people and I was like, I'm going to speak to a lot of people.
• 1:16:34
  And at that time I didn't like social media really wasn't a
• 1:16:37
  thing. Or it was like, it was like
• 1:16:38
  early Facebook days. It was college.
• 1:16:40
  You have to have a college address.
• 1:16:43
  But I just had this vision like, man, I meant to like speak to a
• 1:16:46
  lot of people. Like really it was about like
• 1:16:47
  impacting people. It's about like moving people
• 1:16:49
  and changing their lives. And like, I just saw this, this
• 1:16:53
  kind of vision, you know, and then you know, you do flash
• 1:16:55
  forward years later and I have actually spoke to millions of
• 1:16:57
  people online, LinkedIn and you know, the last couple years has
• 1:17:01
  been probably 15,000,000 people alone and then the podcast and
• 1:17:04
  YouTube and everything else. And so it's like I didn't, those
• 1:17:07
  things weren't even a really what they are back then.
• 1:17:10
  But that was the second thing. And I'm sure there's been
• 1:17:13
  others, but. That's to me.
• 1:17:15
  To me that's, I mean, people can call it what it is, you know,
• 1:17:18
  it's, but we'll get those glimpses, right?
• 1:17:22
  And there's certain people, they get the glimpse and then move
• 1:17:25
  forward with it, right? And red just OK.
• 1:17:28
  But that was perhaps needed as a seed to plant so that you could
• 1:17:32
  step into what it is you're going to be or just accept like,
• 1:17:36
  OK, yeah, that's me. I've seen it.
• 1:17:38
  You already saw it when you were younger.
• 1:17:40
  So it's probably easier to do it because you already saw it.
• 1:17:43
  So we'll get those insights because we all have within the
• 1:17:48
  essence of who we are. It's all there, right?
• 1:17:51
  The apple tree is in the apple seed.
• 1:17:54
  You just can't see it yet when it's in the seed.
• 1:17:56
  And so you got to have the right environment in order to support
• 1:18:00
  that coming about. So this, this, this idea, you're
• 1:18:04
  probably tapping into an energy or frequency that was, was
• 1:18:09
  resonant with your mission because it was speech class,
• 1:18:13
  right? You'd just come from speech
• 1:18:15
  class. And here it's like, Hey, that's
• 1:18:16
  you, man, right. And that was the the soul kind
• 1:18:21
  of speaking up like, hey, he needs to know, like this is
• 1:18:25
  something you got to lean in on and embrace.
• 1:18:28
  Yeah, yeah. OK, so here's my problem.
• 1:18:31
  Here's my dilemma with religion in God.
• 1:18:33
  OK, Because I've gone back and forth, right?
• 1:18:36
  And I consider myself a spiritual person, but like, the
• 1:18:38
  whole religion thing I sometimes have problems with.
• 1:18:41
  And I'm curious. Yeah.
• 1:18:42
  And I'm, and I'm curious to get your perspective on this because
• 1:18:44
  like, it's funny, like we're actually talking now because me
• 1:18:46
  and my girlfriend and my kids were like, we want to go to
• 1:18:48
  church and just like, get more spiritual, more connected, that
• 1:18:50
  kind of stuff. And because I haven't been in a
• 1:18:53
  while and I always struggle with why would God help?
• 1:18:58
  How would he answer our prayers here in America?
• 1:19:00
  And we got things good. And he's going to do something
• 1:19:03
  for me when there's like some kid in a third world country
• 1:19:06
  that's like not going to eat tonight and they're going to die
• 1:19:09
  or some kids getting abused. That's always my, I don't know
• 1:19:12
  if that's right or wrong. I just always think like, if he
• 1:19:16
  was to help me or to help you or write this book, why wouldn't
• 1:19:20
  that energy go towards the stuff that like really, truly need his
• 1:19:25
  help? What are your thoughts on that?
• 1:19:29
  Yeah, it's maybe I've got, I've got a real thought that I think
• 1:19:36
  would be kind of trite and and yet it's true.
• 1:19:45
  So God's everything in everything and God's in the
• 1:19:49
  space between us. God's in you, God's in me, God's
• 1:19:52
  in, you know, God's in everything.
• 1:19:54
  I mean, there's nothing without God.
• 1:19:56
  You take God out of the picture. It's like there's nothing.
• 1:20:00
  So. Whatever that is, you know, and
• 1:20:03
  I call it God, but whatever that is, is alive and everything.
• 1:20:08
  And so one of the things that you grew up with, and I grew up
• 1:20:13
  with as Catholics is this idea that we're all parts of 1 body.
• 1:20:18
  And so if you just look at that as a metaphor, obviously, OK,
• 1:20:21
  we're all parts of 1 body. Well, for all parts of 1 body
• 1:20:24
  and God's in everything, then God's in the whole body.
• 1:20:29
  And so let's say, for example, you gas your foot, right?
• 1:20:36
  And the whole system's like emergency, emergency, right?
• 1:20:40
  You're not going to you're not going to go to the mall, you
• 1:20:43
  know, you're not going to go out to dinner.
• 1:20:45
  You're going to take care of the foot because that's the pressing
• 1:20:48
  energy, right? So now your hands and
• 1:20:51
  everything's going into motion to, to, to wipe the foot, clean
• 1:20:54
  the foot, you know, bandage the foot, foot's getting all this
• 1:20:57
  attention. It's like, well, why is the foot
• 1:20:58
  getting all the attention? How come the hands are so
• 1:21:00
  capable and the foot's not capable, right?
• 1:21:03
  Why can't, why can't the foot do that?
• 1:21:05
  Why can't the knee go and wrap it?
• 1:21:07
  You know, why can't the ear get off the head and go do some
• 1:21:10
  work? It doesn't make sense.
• 1:21:13
  So we're all parts of 1 body and God's part of all of it.
• 1:21:16
  So that would tell you that A, there's severe wounds on the
• 1:21:21
  planet, You know, we have severe areas where there's gangrene,
• 1:21:28
  there's ugliness, but. Why would he let that happen
• 1:21:31
  though? Well, it's all him.
• 1:21:34
  So what do you mean let that happen?
• 1:21:37
  And that's just it. It's like you're thinking of a
• 1:21:39
  God that's out there and not with us.
• 1:21:42
  God's with us. So how do you know?
• 1:21:45
  How do you know that God didn't call in the army and say, Hey,
• 1:21:49
  we need to get down to that foot, right?
• 1:21:52
  We need to pay attention to that foot.
• 1:21:54
  We got to get some energy down there.
• 1:21:56
  Blood cells are going down there.
• 1:21:57
  Every everything's going to the foot because that's what's
• 1:22:00
  needed. Now, if you take a body and you
• 1:22:02
  say, well, the arms gashed and the head just got punched and,
• 1:22:07
  and someone keeps ripping off the scab on the on the middle
• 1:22:10
  part and it's like, hey, there's a lot going on here.
• 1:22:14
  Well, we've got to focus like where do we put our energy?
• 1:22:17
  Where do we put the resources? So you got to allocate resources
• 1:22:20
  in order to go and correct. So if you look inside a body got
• 1:22:23
  trillions of cells like moving around doing its thing.
• 1:22:26
  Well, think of that as externalized now.
• 1:22:29
  And we got billions of people kind of going around doing the
• 1:22:31
  thing. Well, those cells in the body
• 1:22:34
  are there intentionally and purposefully, but there are
• 1:22:36
  cancer cells in there too. We got to go take care of those.
• 1:22:39
  But the cancer cells aren't there to destroy.
• 1:22:41
  They're there to clean up. They're trying to protect the
• 1:22:43
  body and and isolate the toxins and everything so that the rest
• 1:22:47
  of the body can live. So you've got things happening
• 1:22:50
  in the world that we can't explain.
• 1:22:53
  But if it's all one body, if it's all of God, that means that
• 1:22:56
  God's going to bring the resources that that part needs.
• 1:23:01
  Now, if we keep ripping off the scab and we keep, you know,
• 1:23:04
  punching each parts of the body, you know, throwing off a a
• 1:23:08
  nuclear bomb on the arm, you know, and sending armies on the
• 1:23:12
  legs to destroy, we're going to have problems.
• 1:23:16
  That's in US. You know, it's the denial in US.
• 1:23:19
  It's the separation and division in US.
• 1:23:21
  So how do we heal that? We start individually saying,
• 1:23:24
  you know what, it stops here. I'm going to end the divisions
• 1:23:27
  in me. I'm going to choose wholeness
• 1:23:30
  and love and kindness, gentleness.
• 1:23:32
  I'm going to live as another Christ in this world.
• 1:23:35
  I choose that. And then someone else does and
• 1:23:38
  someone else does and someone else doesn't.
• 1:23:39
  Pretty soon more people are doing that and now you're
• 1:23:41
  getting more support and more help, right?
• 1:23:44
  Well, if this book, for example, let's say, let's let's pretend
• 1:23:48
  someone believes what I believe, which is God gave me this book
• 1:23:53
  and people read this book and they come into in a more aligned
• 1:23:57
  state and they choose to end the divisions in them.
• 1:24:02
  Well, now you have those people also ready to be listening to
• 1:24:08
  the divine insight about where it's optimally needed.
• 1:24:11
  No ego. No, I'm going to do this because
• 1:24:13
  then I get glory. It's like, no, you know, I'm
• 1:24:16
  going to do it because it glorifies our creator.
• 1:24:19
  And I choose to do it because that's what I'm called to do,
• 1:24:22
  right? Someone else is going to be
• 1:24:24
  called to give shoes to a certain area or bring food or
• 1:24:26
  water or build wells or build homes.
• 1:24:29
  I'm not doing that. But I guarantee because God's,
• 1:24:33
  all of it, God's planted in the minds of those who can receive
• 1:24:37
  it, the insight to create the companies in order to do those
• 1:24:39
  things. We're moving in that direction.
• 1:24:43
  And the reason why we know we're moving in that direction, like
• 1:24:45
  without a doubt is all the hidden parts that have been
• 1:24:50
  diseased on the planet are surfacing at once.
• 1:24:54
  I look at the last 20 years, it's like, it's insane how much
• 1:24:57
  hidden stuff is coming up. What's coming up?
• 1:24:59
  Because there's so much more love that's on the planet to
• 1:25:04
  handle it, right? So now we can make conscious
• 1:25:07
  choices like, hey, we don't want to do that.
• 1:25:09
  We don't want kids being trafficked.
• 1:25:10
  We don't want women being manipulated the way they were.
• 1:25:15
  We don't want these things that are happening around the world
• 1:25:18
  to happen. Let's let's choose differently.
• 1:25:20
  So what does that look like now? We're still human, right?
• 1:25:23
  So just like through someone else, this story would have been
• 1:25:26
  different, but through me, it's going to pull from, you know,
• 1:25:30
  what I am able to be used for. Same thing with politicians or
• 1:25:36
  singers, right? But if we're all one body and
• 1:25:39
  it's all God, then it's all coming into an alignment where
• 1:25:43
  the stuff that needs to go is going to go and the things that
• 1:25:47
  are going to allow for the fullness and the wholeness of
• 1:25:50
  God's glory. You know, if you look at
• 1:25:51
  Revelation, it's a great story because if you look at what
• 1:25:55
  happens, you got the the metaphor is that the Kingdom of
• 1:25:59
  heaven, you know, the new Jerusalem, it's like comes to
• 1:26:02
  earth. It's like, well, that's here,
• 1:26:04
  that's now that like we're it's happening and we have a part to
• 1:26:09
  play and whatever that, you know, journey is.
• 1:26:13
  But some people look at it and say, well, why wouldn't God do
• 1:26:16
  that? As if like God's a guy in the
• 1:26:18
  clouds, like dictating who gets the resources.
• 1:26:20
  It's like if God's in everything, then all we have to
• 1:26:24
  do is listen. You know, when it go back to
• 1:26:27
  what's the number one thing an entrepreneur can do, Listen,
• 1:26:30
  meditate, listen, surrender, let go of judgement, forgive.
• 1:26:35
  Like move into a space where you can be whole and in your
• 1:26:39
  wholeness, you're going to have these vast skills and abilities
• 1:26:42
  and new intelligence and new eyes to see things through the
• 1:26:46
  lens of love rather than fear. And now all of a sudden, you're
• 1:26:49
  not a victim in the world anymore, but you're someone who
• 1:26:53
  can produce something that's going to lift people out.
• 1:26:57
  And there's also maybe the free will conversation too, right?
• 1:26:59
  And maybe it's like thinking about your kids.
• 1:27:01
  You do the best for your kids. You care for your kids.
• 1:27:03
  You get them wisdom, you get them sign signals.
• 1:27:06
  Then they go to school and someone says something mean.
• 1:27:09
  I can't control every I'm not. You don't think God's like out
• 1:27:12
  there controlling every move that someone makes, right?
• 1:27:15
  No, that would be no it you know, even when when I was
• 1:27:18
  guided to write this book, I'm not a puppet on a string, right?
• 1:27:21
  I just like I get to change the kids diaper, I get to write this
• 1:27:28
  book, right? I chose, I said yes, and I
• 1:27:32
  always have free will and so do you.
• 1:27:35
  But what happens is the more we come into wholeness, the less we
• 1:27:38
  want to rebel, the less we want because we know the
• 1:27:42
  ramifications of rebelling. It always ends poorly, you know,
• 1:27:46
  so, so it's like, well, why would we do that?
• 1:27:48
  And who are we rebelling against?
• 1:27:50
  We're not rebelling against a God that's separate from us.
• 1:27:52
  We're rebelling against ourselves in union with God.
• 1:27:56
  Why would we do that, right? We know we know that ends badly.
• 1:28:00
  So once we recognize like it's not that if we surrender into
• 1:28:04
  this divine force that we're surrendering into something
• 1:28:08
  that's going to take away from us, it's going to allow for life
• 1:28:14
  to be renewed. You know, we are, we die just
• 1:28:18
  like the Caterpillar dies to become the butterfly completely
• 1:28:21
  dissolves. We die to have new life, right?
• 1:28:25
  It's what Jesus came to, to tell us and show us and demonstrate
• 1:28:30
  for us. And then he prayed for us in the
• 1:28:32
  priest's prayer for us to have what he had.
• 1:28:36
  It's like, wow, like, we're called to that mission if we
• 1:28:40
  choose it or we can resist. But it's getting harder to
• 1:28:43
  resist. That's the thing on this planet.
• 1:28:45
  It's harder and harder and harder and harder and harder.
• 1:28:48
  And it will become even to the point of impossible someday to
• 1:28:52
  resist. And so the resistance is going
• 1:28:55
  to lead to, you know, just more dysfunction and more destruction
• 1:29:00
  until people choose, like, all right, I'm going to stop
• 1:29:03
  destroying myself. I'm going to start allowing for
• 1:29:06
  all the parts to integrate. That's where an awe gets
• 1:29:09
  restored in someone's life. It's a lot of fun.
• 1:29:12
  It has nothing to do with religion as dogma.
• 1:29:15
  It has to do with surrendering into an integrated self.
• 1:29:21
  Everyone who is going to go through that process will find
• 1:29:24
  God, call God whatever you want to call God doesn't.
• 1:29:29
  I mean, there's I don't know that God cares, but it will be
• 1:29:33
  wholeness. It will be that that full
• 1:29:35
  expression of of the you that you're capable of, the one you
• 1:29:39
  said when you go to heaven, it's like, Hey, this is who you could
• 1:29:43
  have been, right? This is who you were created to
• 1:29:46
  be. What if it matched?
• 1:29:49
  Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. Yeah.
• 1:29:53
  Well, I knew this was going to be.
• 1:29:54
  I had a feeling, I know we only had one conversation by the
• 1:29:56
  feeling this is going to be a really great conversation.
• 1:29:58
  And I, I really appreciate you going in depth with me and
• 1:30:02
  sharing your stories and that kind of stuff.
• 1:30:04
  And it's just an absolute honor to have you on the show, Mark.
• 1:30:06
  Where can people go to find you, learn more about what you do,
• 1:30:09
  work with you, that type of stuff?
• 1:30:10
  Yeah. So if you're if you're on the
• 1:30:12
  business side and you want to find the the books and programs
• 1:30:15
  here, go to ruka.com RO OK, ha.com RO OK HA, you can find,
• 1:30:23
  you know, wakening your optimal workforce linked linked through
• 1:30:25
  there. And then if you want more of the
• 1:30:28
  spiritual stuff, you can go to the ocoalition.com.
• 1:30:33
  And if you go to the books page, you can start reading any of
• 1:30:37
  there's there's three books of 11.
• 1:30:40
  You know that that are there's. That's cool.
• 1:30:43
  Yeah, next to they're all award-winning books.
• 1:30:46
  The you can start reading them for free, you know, the first
• 1:30:51
  10-15 pages, if one lights you up, yeah, you can go ahead and
• 1:30:54
  buy that. The Lowly Profit just came out
• 1:30:56
  on Audible, so that's available as well.
• 1:31:00
  Very cool. Those are two, two places.
• 1:31:02
  If you're struggling with mental health or if you know someone
• 1:31:05
  struggling, we have a nonprofit called Journey's Dream, and
• 1:31:08
  there's a podcast there called On Your Mind with Doctor Tim
• 1:31:12
  Hayes, and he interviews functional integrative medical
• 1:31:18
  professionals success stories with a lot of resources there
• 1:31:21
  that you can explore. Very cool.
• 1:31:23
  Thanks again for coming on the show.
• 1:31:24
  Yeah. Appreciate it, Mark.
• 1:31:25
  Thanks.