Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #42 A Social Media Roadmap: Tips from Growing Up in Public author Dr. Devorah Heitner

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#42 A Social Media Roadmap: Tips from Growing Up in Public author Dr. Devorah Heitner · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

I'm Dr. Sarah Olivo and I'm Dr. Liz Seidler and you're listening to College is Fine. Everything's fine.Hi, listeners just wanted to give you a heads up that at the end of this interview today with Davora we abruptly are cut off. We had some wifi issues and as three working moms. Had really tight schedules. So weren't able to kind of re get online, but it was probably for the best we could have asked a million questions about. Growing up in public about the internet, our footprint online and how young adults can navigate all of that. Anyway, tune in Devorah is wonderful. And we can't wait to hear what you think.Hi, devorah. It's good to see you again. I know that you and I got together and got to know each other about your first book, Screenwise, which I gobbled up as a parent of younger children and at that point in time you told me you were coming out with one for teenagers, young adults or essentially for the parents of these folks but our audience is really college students who probably want to tell their parents, I don't know, uh, back off, or hey let's talk a little bit more about this, or it's not all evil, right?And what I love about Your focus is how practical your tips can be. And so I'm so excited to have you here today. Do you want to introduce yourself before I just keep gushing?Thank you. So kind of you. So I do, I did talk to a lot of college students for the book growing up in public, coming of age in a digital world. And what I found, you know, is that young people are thinking so thoughtfully and deeply about these issues, about reputation, about social media, about its effects on all of our mental health.And I think. This generation is thinking very hard about these issues. So although growing up in public is a lot of it was written with parents and educators in mind. I'm hearing from young people and I just talked to the media scholar Yalda Alls, who's has young people in their 20s, her, she's a parent of, of, you know, young adults in their 20s.And she said her kids have read it. So I know young people are reading it and getting something out of it. And, uh, again, a lot of the voices in the book are voices of high school, college and people in their early careers. So. I'm really very interested in hearing what young people have to say about these topics and hopefully this book can be helpful to young people.Yeah. So Sarah and I both clinically work with a lot of young adults and teenagers and, I would say on a weekly basis, I'm having some sort of misunderstanding or conflict or discussion about social media, its usage, what parents are seeing, not having access to in the conversations and discussions you had with parents and young adults.What would you say is like the biggest misunderstanding between college students and their parents when it comes to social media or the internet?I think a lot of us don't understand, a lot of adults, older adults I'll say, don't understand the way young people do really get the segmentation. Like, a lot of young people are deeply aware of how to be different on, you know, LinkedIn versus Instagram, TikTok versus Snapchat, you know. And, um, I think it's important that adults don't generalize too much and assume that, you know, Oh, my, my kid is, you know, exposing themselves in the wrong ways.Reputation is really tricky for this generation. Like we, as, as adults didn't have the same reputation threat that young people in college do. So like one of the people I interviewed Talked about being nervous about being at a party and having someone videotape her doing something that Wouldn't reflect well on her for example, and we didn't have to worry about that essentially like that wasn't something that we had to deal with So I think it's important that parents don't Misunderstand how little young people are thinking about it and and actually understand most young people that I've talked to are actually Probably more worried about it than they need to be because they've been hearing their whole lives these incredible Messages of oh, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube or you know, the internet is forever and yes, that's true, but the internet is also many layered and Everyone's out there doing their reputation kind of all the time so I think it's also important to talk about the after like what do you do if something does go wrong and not just You know, try to scare young people out of ever making a mistake online, because that's too inhibiting.Like, we'll all make mistakes.You're right. And I've also. And the people, I don't know, Liz, if you hear this a lot, but the, the teens and college students I talk to, a lot of times they're kind of aware, like, hey, everybody put their phones in a basket before we go into this party. I mean, I think that a lot of people are trying to say, hey, we actually want to go back to not having to worry about this.And they're making, you know, in smaller groups when you can have more control of it. I think they're saying, hey. No recordings, like, let's just have a good time with our friends and not have to worry about something popping up tomorrow. Um, you know, the definitions of privacy and stigma are constantly changing and probably from, you know, every decade or so we get a different definition of them.What are some good rules of thumb when it comes to how and what to post and when to hold things a little closer to the best?Yeah, I mean, one thing is to make sure you have an opt in or permission from everyone. So, I often will hear about, you know, if something is posted, it might be that your friend has a different set of boundaries than you do. And so, if in doubt, if it's someone else, don't share it out. If it's you and it's big news, think about is there anyone I haven't told in person that will be You know, either upset by this or affected by this, like, is there anyone I need to talk to before I share this in an online setting?I think a lot of us share because it's convenient and it's a good way to get the word out. A bunch of young people in my own family have gotten engaged in the last few weeks and that's gotten shared on Instagram and I think in some cases there can be hurt feelings if you don't, like, call Grandma and let her know and everyone hears it on Instagram and then Grandma's hearing it.It's like you might want to let some people know by phone if they're not on Instagram, um, you know, first. And so just thinking about those kinds of protocols. And again, if you have a friend who, you know, has like, maybe not the same boundaries as you do, and tends to be a big overshare, kind of reminding them like, Hey, when we're together, like, please don't post about, you know, stuff we're doing, unless it's okay with me, or please check first.And just being really clear about that, because there is a range. And so it's important to think about that and also going back and cleaning up your own posts, you know, maybe once a year, you know, or every couple of months. You don't have to be paranoid about it, but just going back. And looking at things and a lot of people told me like, you know, something that they posted, maybe in middle school, they took down in high school or something you posted in college.Maybe they don't want anymore. And a lot, a lot of people on Instagram now are a lot of young people are not using their grid the same way. And so I know, like, my own, you know, the young people, my own life are a little horrified that I have so many grid posts because they're really just using stories and they don't want to be as attached to the past as maybe I do. I love what you said, though, about, , Instead of instilling this scared, straight kind of feared mentality, almost like coping ahead for , you might make a mistake. And what are we going to do when that potentially happens? Not assuming 100 percent and catastrophizing that's going to happen, but, , because I do see the other side a lot in my office of , insane anxiety around,, Instilled by parents and peers around being canceled or something kind of, you know, terrible happening in terms of their social media.I do think that one of the things that's really new is parents being able to track their child when they're in college, what are some of these common pitfalls that parents in terms of their urge to kind of over control their college students, uh, through social media, their phone, you know, kind of tracking what they're doing. Right. MmA lot of the tracking is really pernicious because, because we have access to things like Life 360 or Find My Phone, we can even know where young people are. And I think for a lot of young people, maybe that was a condition of like, when you learn to drive, your parents were like, okay, we're going to do this Life 360 thing.And a lot of the people I talked to for growing up in public were like, okay, it's, it's okay when I'm still living at home, or I don't mind. Some of them did and found it very invasive. But I think. By college, it's something that parents really need to back off from and not kind of overestimate how helpful they could be.Like, if you're worried about your kid's safety on campus, you know, Talk to them about things like staying sober, if you aren't, if you are going to use alcohol or drugs, being with people that you trust. Don't go off with someone new that you don't know, if, especially if you're not sober, because that might not be safe.You know, leave, leave the party with who you came with. Those are some safety things, like your, your mom being able to life 360 you is not going to actually keep you safe three states away, or even 30 minutes away. Um, being with friends that you trust. And knowing your own limits is going to keep you safe.Um, calling security for a ride home is going to keep you safe. Maybe taking a self defense class is going to help keep you safe, right? These are things that will actually keep you safe. Um, your mom tracking, you will not keep you safe. There is nothing your mom can really do for you, you know, by seeing where your dot on campus or off campus is at a certain time, it's only potentially going to make her worry more.And I, if you have a parent who's using. Life 360 in a way to control, to try to control your behavior as a young adult, you know, threatening withdrawal of financial support, et cetera. I really feel for you because that's a very controlling and even I think, you know, borderline abusive way to behave with a young adult.It's not okay. Um, so if you're in a situation like that, I would say, you know, I would avail yourself of the mental health resources on campus to support. Trying to have boundaries, but your parent is making it really difficult. But for a lot of parents, they're not maybe going that far. They're not, you know, threatening kids with like, oh, I won't pay your tuition with.They're just thinking about. You know, oh, it's, this is how I assuage my anxiety. And I think one thing you can say to them is let them know the things you're doing to stay safe. Again, did you take a self defense class? Do you have a deal where you either don't drink at all, maybe at parties, or you, you are leaving with the friends you came with, right?You don't owe your parents every bit of information about your life. But if you can maybe reassure them by letting them know some of the steps you're taking to stay safe or some of the campus resources like Rides Home that are available, that might actually reassure them a little bit. It shouldn't be young people's job, frankly, to reassure their parents, but to be fair to parents, there's a lot of media out there right now that makes us really nervous about our kids welfare, and so it's kind of you if you want to reassure them.I think it's really not on you, it's not your job, but it's kind of you if you want to do that.I love so many things about what you said. First of all, that yes, if it is really extreme to say that's not a typical thing. So know that if a parent is trying to withhold financial support or controlling you, um, kind of excessively, I like that you're saying that is not something that you should have to tolerate, that that's atypical.And I would agree with you. I also write that when parents are trying to get reassurance, really, you know, when they're texting and yeah, I can't imagine it. Parent being like, where are you? Are you doing, you know, it's like, that's probably distracting you from other signals that could be giving you information about whether you're safe or not, if your head's in the phone and you're texting mom back to be like, back off, right?So it's nice to just state that that is a. Anxiety management tool for the parents, that is not necessarily something that has to be engaged in. Um, so, yeah, we work with people all the time to say, like, some of the things that we do to manage worry, in fact, are just safety behaviors that are, that kind of trick us into thinking we're doing something, but they're either not doing something or they could actually be causing more.Of a problem, you know, one thing we hear and say a lot is, um, really strict parents and really controlling parents make sneaky kids. So if this is something where you're doing this to your college student, the chances that they're going to have a work around is pretty high. They're likely going to be savvy if they really want to get around what these things are.So, um, I love that. It's just about conversing with them. Um, but all right, let's go where angels fear to tread a little bit. Sexting. Is it all bad?Fair. Yeah. And I think this is a real, this is where my book, you know, I talk about when sending nudes happens, like for example, in middle school, high school and college. And I just think in college, particularly sending nudes is really none of parents business. It's, it's definitely not something, you know, I think it's very different.Like if you have a seventh grader. And, you know, you think they're in a new relationship, and you have concerns about sending nudes. First of all, a big difference is that sending nudes is illegal for people under 18, and it is not illegal for people over 18, and that is a huge difference, right? So there are still many social and privacy risks with sharing nudes and obviously circulating someone else's nudes without consent is against the law.So if someone is threatening you with that or has done that to you in a breakup situation or some other, you know, in some other scenario, that's a situation where you do need legal help and probably some mental health support. That's a very terrifying situation. And there, the good news is there are a lot of attorneys now, unfortunately, because this has happened to so many people, especially women.Um, there are attorneys who specialize in this, and one of the people I. You know, interviewed for the book is, um, attorney Carrie Goldberg, who talks a lot about, uh, and this is her whole practices specialty again, unfortunately, and she's also written a book called nobody's victim about sextortion, um, you know, revenge porn, things that can happen.And I thought actually, most of her clients would be adults when I talked to her, you know, maybe young adults. But in fact, there are children as well who this happens to, people under 18. Um, but if it happens to someone over 18, just because child porn isn't an issue, doesn't mean you don't have any rights.If someone's circulating, you're nude. You know, against your will, without your consent, that's not okay. Uh, sending nudes does leave someone vulnerable to privacy risk, right? So, even though you're not in the same legal territory that you were in high school, um, of course there's privacy risks. You could later feel vulnerable that you shared those nudes.With that person. Maybe they are less trustworthy or the relationship changes. Um, it could be worth thinking about the safety tips that I share in the book, which again, are not a guarantee of safety. But like sending things that are racy without being actually nude, sending things that don't have your face.Both of those things can reduce Risk, um, without completely eliminating it. I mean, I find any kind of sexy stuff in digital spaces to feel risky. Like the, you know, even something like talking dirty to my spouse feels risky because I'm like, what if I mistakenly send it to the family group text, you know, like, it just feels.Like, um, it just feels risky to me because I've made other mistakes online where I have sent, you know, luckily more innocuous text to the wrong person, but. Uh, or sent to a group text when I meant to send to an individual. So to me, sending nudes is risky, but the fact is when I talk to college students, this is part of the sexuality of many college students.It is not everyone. You do not have to feel like you're weird or prude if you don't do this. Um, you know, 20 percent about may have done this. from, from the research we know, but may, it may be more, but it is not a hundred percent. So if you are choosing to date or, and, or be sexually active in person, that doesn't mean you need to send nudes.I want to be clear or that you're weird if you don't want to, or you're worried about the risk. Um, some people prefer apps like Snapchat because theoretically the image disappears. There's always the risk of a screenshot, however. Um, so I would say just if you're going to do this with a partner or with someone you're interested in, just be really cautious and thoughtful.And, um, you know, be ready to deal with the risks and know that, you know, some of your friends have been through things with sexting before and certainly know that there are legal and mental health resources. If someone is using. Images that you have shared in a coercive way and no one should ever coerce you or harass you into sending images.That's also totally unacceptable.I think that's helpful. You provide a decision making kind of framework in terms of like balancing that for some young adults. I really do think this is how they initially kind of are connecting with people online potentially and through online dating. But encouraging that intentionality or thoughtfulness and, and really weighing the risks, you know, another area when you were talking about that, that I think comes to mind, and this has definitely been something that's been the content of sessions with a lot of my patients recently in the past few years.It's just been a lot of controversial, , world affairs, politics, the recent ongoing war. Um, and. A lot of my patients have struggled with posting about events, their opinions on it, and have gotten a lot of feedback actually from grandparents and parents that follow them on social media about potential consequences of doing this, usually in aAnd friends weighing in too, right, like itcareer, you know.Right. Career focused. Any thoughts of or about how to decide how and when to post about these important.but often heated, polarizing topics.It's so funny. I just spoke with a journalist about this and I'm going to share for the show notes kind of what I said to her, which she was specifically reaching out about should college students, you know, how should they post about the ongoing war and. Looking at the ways people have been, you know, responded to around the controversy.And so what I said to her, just to summarize, is we all need to educate ourselves about big issues. You know, most of us are not experts on these things. Even if we, even if you're a Middle East Studies major, you know, you have only been studying this for a few years, and it's like a thousand year old complicated set of complex, just like that war in particular.But, like, say The Ukraine or say you have thoughts about climate or guaranteed living wage. I'm not here to silence anyone. I think we should post about our beliefs, but we should also be honest with ourselves about how much or how little we accomplish when we do that. And if we really want to see change in the world, we have to think about, like, just sharing this with my 600 or my 6000 Instagram followers.Is that the way that I'm going to bring about change is that the way I'm going to convince somebody to recycle? Is that the way I'm going to. You know, make a ceasefire happen. Is that the way I'm going to, you know, change, um, student loan repayment laws? Right? Like, and, and my answer is, um, that's very unlikely.Um, people more influential than you are posting about this people who literally are in power posting about this and their posts are not the thing that's changing what's happening. And so, to me. And I say this with, with tremendous respect for young activists, you know, take it to the voting office, take it to the street, take it to your advocacy group, whether you want to do something very local, like change composting on your college campus to very international, you know, like advocating for a change or for peace in the world, like any of those things, there are probably more effective ways to have your voice be heard and you also want to play the long game.Like, In the short term, maybe there's not much you can do about something like an international conflict, but maybe this lets, you know, you'd like to be working for an NGO, or you would like to be working for doctors without borders, or you would like to be working for, you know, in Congress, right? Like, like, and so what does that mean about what you need to study next semester?What does that mean about the internship? You want to try to get next summer? Um, so I think the short game is the post and it may let some feelings out, but it may. Not be that effective. Um, that said, I'm not here to silence anyone. And I don't think that in an ideal world, employers are like, looking at what you post and not hiring you.But we know that that sometimes happens. You have to ask yourself, is that a workplace you would want to be in whether you're posting about your identity as an LGBTQ plus person, whether you're posting about mental health or posting about an issue. Um, the flip side is if you haven't read even one full book on that issue, if you've only read two or three blog posts on that issue, Or talk to 1 very strong feeling friend on that issue.It's probably not time to post yet. Um, I would, I would, I would read a book or 2 just because there's, there's a lot of complexity. And I think right now, especially we can be really pushed to post very quickly and that. It may not be worth the risk of posting and offending people and all of that. If you haven't even really thought through, like, wait, where, where am I coming from on this?Um, but the most important thing, I think, is to really think about how can I actually affect change and it's, it's not going to be by posting is, is the reality that I believe fromeverything I've observed in the last 40 years.Right, I know. And there's this advocacy piece and I do think that people feel compelled to show support or, um, and, and then it can feel impulsive and passionate. And then on the flip side, they think, okay, well, and showing support in one area, I ended up without realizing it. hurting another group or having a friendship that was impacted.And one of the things I've worked with a lot of people on is to say, okay, think about and have a values based perspective on when you're posting about something that's really important, you might decide it's worth all the risk because you need to share what this was like for you going through it. Or is there something for you to put out there around supporting close friends that do find that they need that extra support right now?And that's important to you. And then. It's worth maybe the, you know, the pro con balance goes more towards pro in that instance. But I do find that a lot of times what ends up happening is it's, um, it feels like pressure. It's based on some of the, in the moment of motion. And if we take that out, then you can more, you know, then you can more solidly think through, even if it's not advocacy for the topic, um, are there other ways even to support that group besides a post?Can you reach out to them other thing is, it can leave you feeling more alone than you think, especially if you're doing like an outraged comment to someone else's post or. You know, like I've talked to teenagers who are like, oh, I'll just like hate watch this misogynist, racist YouTube channel and put an outraged post. And I'm like, you need to find the people in your own community who believe what you believe and support the targeted communities in this case.And that person's also making money from your views. And I've actually was able to dissuade some younger teenagers from doing like hate watching problematic channels by letting them know, like. Guess what? Andrew Tate's making money off that. If you're quote unquote hate watching it, he's making money off your eyeballs and your time.Like you do not want to be feeding the fire. And so if something you radically disagree with, don't watch it, don't share it because that's just growing that person's influenceMmneverand it's isolating you and not leaving you feeling better. So much better to find the people who want to work toward a better world together.And you know, the good thing about being on a college campus is there's almost certainly someone who Really does share your feelings. So plan to teach and plan something. And again, you know, I think what I'm seeing right now on college campuses is like a lot of talking and not a lot of listening. And so anything you can do, that's truly a listening session.That's like facilitated and people can share how they're feeling and thinking and also inform one another in deeper ways so that it's not just about reacting.Sure. Um, so yes, I couldn't agree more. Um, I wanted to think through, you know, we just talked about things where there's some pros and cons, but what about the ones where, you know, whoops, that was all cons, you know, a drunken DM that you didn't mean to send, um, sharing more than you intended, and it's out there, and the two of Paste really is out of the tube and you want to take it back.You can delete it, but people have seen it. Um, you know, so I guess it's a two parter. One is, do you find that when that happens, are students getting cancelled or many cancelled among their friends? Um, and if so, or if it just does lead to some problems, what are some things that you found they can either do or ways to cope with that?Right.think differently about you. The best thing you can do other than potentially taking down a post or apologizing is, you know, going to people individually if you, like, said something about someone individually and try to make repair, that can be harder to repair.If you just, like, say you overshared, um, You know, maybe you posted when you weren't inhibited enough because you were using alcohol or something else. Ideally, you just build a better, you know, kind of digital footprint going forward and make sure to just do a lot of good things and have them get posted online.And then eventually that post kind of disappears, especially if hopefully nobody saved it and you took it down, you know, and you can even ask friends like, hey, can you, um, not. Not sure that, like, most of the time, people are kind of on your side in the sense of, like, none of us really want to see something bad happen.And that's why we don't abuse old texts from friends or share things, you know, screenshot things that our friends do. And because that would be like, mutually assured destruction. Like, if you have a close enough relationship where people have an embarrassing text of yours, presumably you have something of theirs.And so it's like, even if that friendship ends, like, let's not blow this up. Um, I think that's just a best practice, but the best thing you can do is build a positive digital footprint going forward. And that will be the thing that people will find if there are things. Sometimes you can go to a search engine and ask them to take it down. It is possible to do that. So if you read books about reputation, or if you really feel worried, you know, say you're going to run for office and you're, they're saying you're really worried about that. And you go to a reputation firm and like, see what they can do for you. But for most of the time, most of the things, you know, like a silly drunk post, um, I would just sort of take it down and move forward with your life and try to post more positive things going forward.And, um, I think we'll all have this whole generation and really anyone I would say who's like under 32 right now. Anyone who went to college in the digital age. They're all going to have stuff like that. And so what a recruiter told me, cause I talked to recruiters for growing up in public, we're not looking for the drunk post.We're looking for you on GitHub. We're looking for you on LinkedIn, like show up there. Be awesome. You know, I'm not trying to like fight, dig, dig through history to see if you ever went to a party with a red solo cup. And you know, the recruiter I was talking to was 28. She was like, I went to parties with a red solo cup.So I'm not here. Judge you like, that's the good thing too, is to understand, like, most recruiters at most firms are your generation. You know, it's not necessarily only people, especially in fields like tech, it's not necessarily someone who's 63 or 45 who doesn't have a digital reputation. It's going to be maybe someone who's 28, who absolutely has empathy for growing up in the digital age.So, as long as it's nothing that, like, they can't imagine or relate to, you should be fine. Yeah,that's great. We were just going to ask, I think, a little bit about are there any rules about, like, what to post publicly when thinking about, you know, a lot of our college students that are juniors and seniors are thinking about internships and jobs and careers. And I think that it's nice to hear that, you know, there is this shift in terms of the people who are recruiting.You also had an experience, um, at your age with. You know, the digital media and probably made a lot of the same mistakes you potentially made. But is there any like, I don'tknow, they're allies.they're allies.I think LinkedIn for LinkedIn, I would say you don't necessarily need a professional photo because most of you are probably pretty decent at photography. And I don't know that I would spend the money on a headshot when I'm you're 22, but I think do you, you know, I mean, I have seen young people in my own family, like, you know, take a really cute picture with like an off the shoulder dress or something for and repurpose it for LinkedIn.And I'm like, maybe nothing with tan lines, like, You know, dress like you would dress for a job interview in your LinkedIn photo, is what I would say. Um, and you'll be fine. Like, just make sure. And I would say, too, like, nothing that leads to a dead end. Like, make sure all the links work, that kind of thing.That's really helpful and I think being out there from what the recruiter said, being out there, having a LinkedIn or a GitHub is better than not being out there. So, I think that's something to think about if you want to have a quiet digital presence, maybe you got rid of Instagram and Snapchat because you didn't have better things to do with your life.That's fine. You don't need those, but you do need a LinkedIn or a GitHub if you're looking for a job. And you know, if you're, if you don't know what GitHub is and you're probably not looking in a field where you need a GitHub, but if you're looking at like computer science, you probably do, but in any field, you probably want LinkedIn by the time you graduate.And don't be afraid to like put your internships on there. It's okay. If you've just been a camp counselor, like you're 22, you're 21, it's okay to look like you're 22 or 21 on, on, you know, LinkedIn, you don't have to have done that much yet, but just. Be findable, be accessible and then change it over time.Like some people put their GPA on there. I don't necessarily advise that anyway, but talk to a career counselor, but you know, five years out of college, take, if you put your GPA in what courses you took, maybe take that off, you know, you don'tSurely, you have something between that and 5 years yeah, I just keep thinking about like, what, what's the most interesting thing about you lately. Devorah. This has been great. Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories and their advice. This podcast is for college students and we want input by college students, so please reach out by text, email, or voice memo to collegesfindpodcast at gmail. com or 929 500 2231. Tell us your story, give us tips on topics you'd like to hear, or give us feedback about an episode.Follow us on Instagram at colleges find podcasts for episode announcements and resources. And last but not least, if you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to the podcast. Every hit of that plus button helps us keep growing.