Latest / This is Not Art Therapy (The Podcast) / Episode 11: Dan-Sode/ Art, Social Media, & AI

Transcript

Episode 11: Dan-Sode/ Art, Social Media, & AI · This is Not Art Therapy (The Podcast)

0:05
Hello, hello, hello. I'm not singing. John, you
0:10
got to sing. Talking about burritos. This is
0:14
my singing podcast song. Get it going, get it
0:18
going on. We're here to talk about AI. All kinds
0:21
of stuff that'll track your eyes. Robot voices.
0:26
We got a special guest and his name is Dan. Dan
0:29
the man. Dan the man, Bergamini. Welcome, welcome,
0:34
welcome. What a sweet name. Yeah. Also our longest
0:39
guest or like longest distanced guests as you're
0:42
beaming in from the UK. Welcome Dan. Thank you
0:47
for having me. Artist, writer, musician, a man
0:53
of many skills, friend to many, HR to few. Dan
0:59
Bergamini, everyone. And then there's John. And
1:02
then there's John. I'm just here to comic relief.
1:06
Our in -house John. Yeah. Right on. Today, we
1:09
are talking about social media, art, and AI.
1:12
And these three topics, there's so much to talk
1:17
about. There's a lot of nuance. You could probably
1:19
have an entire podcast about AI. and we only
1:24
have about an hour, so we'll try to get it fun
1:27
without getting too detailed in what we're going
1:30
to talk about, I guess. How does that sound?
1:33
Dan? I can't. Okay, I would just say this. I
1:37
think it might start off fun, and then slowly
1:40
I'm going to spiral, and hopefully both of you
1:42
will spiral as well as we talk more about AI.
1:44
Oh, dear Lord. As if social media wasn't bad
1:48
enough of a topic, AI goes dark places. Okay.
1:53
Spiral warning, everyone. Bring your parachutes.
1:56
This might be a messy one. Or, you know, art
2:00
can be the parachute for you. So we have three
2:02
art invitations. If you want to art along, I
2:05
find making art helps me deal with big feelings.
2:08
And maybe that helps for you. So our three art
2:11
invitations. First one is to create an analog
2:14
social media. That could be in the form of a
2:18
book or just random pictures, but it's the idea
2:21
of a visual collection that you can share with
2:25
other people, I guess. It seems like kind of
2:28
a weird place to go. And if that's something
2:31
that suits you, have at her. We have before and
2:34
after body maps. So we're asking to do a check
2:38
-in with your body and you can either make visuals
2:40
for it of how you feel before you decide to go
2:44
on social media and then spend some time on social
2:46
media and then do another body map and see if
2:49
and how your body or the sensations in your body
2:53
or how you feel about stuff has changed throughout
2:56
the experience of being on social media. And
2:59
the last one's my favorite because it's really
3:00
cute and it just has... me picturing a little
3:03
version of me being all cute and fun is called
3:06
Be Your Own Influencer. So if a tiny influencer
3:09
lived on your shoulder and was encouraging you
3:12
to do things, what would those things be? And
3:14
I get really wholesome when I think about this
3:16
and we don't need to go in detail, but those
3:18
are the three art invitations. You can even turn
3:20
the last one into a doll if you want to, but
3:22
no pressure. No pressure. So that's the art.
3:26
Now we'll get into the questions. John, do you
3:29
want to start us off or do you want me to go?
3:31
Yeah, if you want to start off, that's great.
3:33
I will start off. So, you know, you can both
3:37
speak to this. How has social media influenced
3:39
the way you make, share or consume art? Oh, that's
3:43
a great question. So I'd say with like social
3:46
media, it's kind of crazy because like you start
3:49
off with just your friends. that you know in
3:52
your immediate stuff from like high school or
3:54
whatnot. And then it slowly grows into something
3:56
bigger. Like just adding people that you're like,
3:59
oh, okay, we do like some of the same stuff.
4:02
Like for me, like when I was doing MMA, it was
4:04
a lot of other people doing MMA. And we just
4:07
have those types of connections. And, you know,
4:09
it spiraled into real world stuff, like where
4:12
we could go meet to train or, you know, just
4:15
making actual real friendships. But it's strange
4:17
that a friendship could start at a computer.
4:21
What would you say, Dan? I think consuming art,
4:27
I think the most immediate thing that comes to
4:29
mind is how much it's destroyed my attention
4:33
span. And I've always had a bad attention span,
4:36
but I used to be able to watch movies. And now
4:39
I feel like unless I'm in a movie theater, I...
4:43
when I turn off my phone I can't sit through
4:46
anything um really and so that's that's a big
4:50
one um in terms of like make and this will probably
4:53
topic you know as we go on but like making art
4:55
um I think early on it was really positive you
4:58
know like 2014 2015 and a few years after because
5:01
that was when there was a lot of I was like really
5:03
challenging myself on how I did like photography
5:06
and wouldn't necessarily post everything, but
5:09
I would see what other people were doing. And
5:11
then like yourself, I also met people who I still
5:14
talk to and make stuff with through social media.
5:18
But I think all that's like changed now. And
5:21
I think it's just become even worse from what
5:23
it used to be. So would you say become more of
5:26
like a consumer of just like social media as
5:29
in like, instead of like a, like participant,
5:31
like actively participating in art, or you might
5:34
be comparing yourself to other people? Or a secret
5:36
third thing. yeah oh third thing I think I still
5:42
post a lot but it's to not it's for no reason
5:46
and yeah and it's um I think it's like damaged
5:50
or it yeah I I see I think the example I think
5:54
about a lot now is I'm posting I'm shooting vertically
5:57
a lot or you know um yeah with with with my camera
6:01
and I've I've ruined incredible opportunities
6:04
um like what like when I was in Burkina Faso
6:08
two weeks ago that's a once in a lifetime opportunity
6:11
for some of the places I was in and I was taking
6:13
photos thinking about Instagram stories and not
6:16
thinking about oh yeah what's best for this photo
6:19
yeah I can I can speak a little bit to that too
6:23
when I when I was in Africa as well um I found
6:27
I was taking a lot of pictures but I I think
6:29
it was just trying to hold on to memories, but
6:32
like, I know what you mean. Like I, I took this
6:34
picture or sorry, a video of this really blue
6:36
ocean. And I was like, this is the bluest ocean
6:39
I've ever seen. And I think like 12 people looked
6:42
at it and liked it. And for, and for some reason
6:44
I felt really embarrassed and I took it down
6:46
and I was like, that's the bluest ocean I've
6:48
ever seen. And I'm like, why did I do that? Like,
6:50
who cares? Like if, if anything, like this social
6:52
media stuff should be more of a scrapbook for
6:54
us. Yeah. And yeah. So I blew it. Yeah, totally.
7:00
Sorry. Yeah, no, it's totally cool. That's a
7:02
great dad joke. But yeah, I totally blew it with
7:06
that post. And then like, I blew it as in, I
7:08
was just like, oh, I cared that, you know, not
7:11
a lot of people liked it or engaged with it.
7:13
And I was like, that's just so silly. Like, you
7:15
should just acknowledge the fact that you're
7:17
just in the ocean. And like you said, one time
7:19
thing. And how do you think that you like, you
7:21
can fix it to be like more present? Yeah, to
7:25
do it for. your own sake rather than thinking
7:29
of like what the algorithm wants or what other
7:32
people are going to like. And I don't think,
7:34
and obviously I don't know what the algorithm
7:37
really is, but I don't think there's really a
7:41
science to it. And I know there's like Instagram
7:43
ads that are like, oh, figure out how. So I'm
7:46
sure there's like hacks to it, but I think part
7:49
of it is luck. Or maybe I'm just, when I use
7:52
social media. I'll like post whenever I feel
7:55
like it or whatnot. That's not true. There's
7:58
a lot of like things holding me back from posting.
8:00
Yeah. Where was I going with this? I know what
8:03
you mean. No, I sometimes, yeah, I feel you when
8:06
it comes to like being like, there's certain
8:07
times if I post, there'll be like 200 people
8:10
will view something or if I post, it'll be like
8:12
under 30. And that actually does help you be
8:16
like, okay, I have to post by 11. And if I don't
8:19
post by 11, I've missed my window. Even if I'm
8:22
posting at one o 'clock or two o 'clock, three
8:24
o 'clock, I'm just noticing there's a big engagement
8:27
because it would go from 200 to like 130 or 125.
8:29
And also the style of content. I know that since
8:33
I started posting art, I have people who really
8:36
like my art and they stand in there and they're
8:39
with you. But whereas like... if i did a gym
8:42
selfie or a like lifting a heavy weight there
8:46
the engagement would be a lot higher it'd be
8:48
somewhere to like the 400 to 500 range but then
8:50
when you're like oh this is something i've been
8:52
working at i'm new at it and it's not my original
8:55
crowd so you're just like okay so a lot of people
8:59
will kind of hop off of that you know yeah so
9:02
I can actually talk a bit about algorithms because
9:05
I worked for a social media company for seven
9:07
years. And algorithms do exist, but they're constantly
9:14
changing. And it was a software company that
9:19
built tools for scheduling and all sorts of different
9:22
things. I won't get too much into it because
9:24
it's... whatever but um uh it but part of that
9:29
was it would tell you and tell creators and all
9:31
this like when the best time for them specifically
9:33
to post which is interesting but it's it there
9:37
was a part of it that felt like because instagram
9:40
was constantly changing it it came out later
9:44
they were experimenting on people as well basically
9:47
like depending on how you posted they would um
9:50
your post might get less views just because you
9:54
were a pride you know of i don't know i can't
9:58
think of examples now but like they literally
9:59
were experimenting on people and seeing showing
10:02
them different types of content to see how that
10:04
would change how they behaved showing them more
10:06
negative things because that that results in
10:08
more um more interaction that's crazy yeah yeah
10:14
i i have a friend and she posts constantly a
10:17
lot of tiktok stuff and that type of algorithm
10:19
and her her engagements i'd have to say it's
10:23
like fairly low But she got one video that basically
10:26
went like to, I think it was like 12 million
10:29
people viewed one of her simple, just, it was
10:32
like a voiceover and it was crazy. And for about
10:35
a week, she was like, I think I'm going to be
10:36
a big influencer. Like, I think this is, I've
10:38
like, actually I've hit it. Like I've done so
10:40
many videos, but it didn't really translate into,
10:43
it didn't translate into like people going back
10:46
and looking at any of her new videos. And her
10:49
next one from there was like, you know, it was
10:51
about. I can't remember. I think it was like
10:53
in the thousands, which was still a lot more
10:55
than what she'd seen before. And then it went
10:57
for the next video. It was like right back down
10:59
and like into like the hundreds and like under
11:03
a hundred. And like, she was just so heartbroken
11:05
about that. That would sting. Yeah. And even
11:08
the concept of influencer is very new to us.
11:12
Yeah. That's a strange one. Yeah. Like likes
11:15
are almost currency. Yeah. you know and i think
11:20
of the human need for validation yeah and how
11:23
far we've taken that so what type of experiments
11:26
like if you can get into it like that's that's
11:29
a no and i would say that that's the company
11:32
i work for was not doing anything like that because
11:34
they were more on the like tool and for influencers
11:37
but there's been tons and tons of reports out
11:40
for instagram i mean meta is the i think is the
11:43
worst one for it yeah that they would intentionally
11:47
try to see if they could change people's moods,
11:49
if they could, all of these different things.
11:51
And I think a good example is why they're allowing
11:54
so much AI content, because it gets a lot of
11:56
engagement. Because it's a lot of people saying,
11:59
hey, this is AI. This is horrible. This is whatever.
12:03
but it's all just about engagement. So it doesn't
12:05
matter to them. And same thing if it's like on
12:09
your phone, you're not getting necessarily any
12:11
more on Instagram, for example, getting content
12:14
you want to see, getting content that you might
12:16
share with someone going, this is horrible. Yeah.
12:22
So just basically rage baiting people, getting
12:25
people angry and like confirmation biases. And
12:30
I'd have to say like something I've watched out
12:33
of, like uh my own dad whether it comes to social
12:35
media um he'll like get stuck on like the the
12:39
family guy reels and instead of like watching
12:41
family guy like the actual show his attention
12:44
span is like nil he basically is like watching
12:47
these 30 second clips doing a little giggle and
12:50
then just watch another one and another one and
12:53
i was like what what happened to like like the
12:56
attention span of like you were saying before
12:57
like you used to have a good one you could watch
13:00
a full movie before like that wasn't a problem
13:02
unless you were in a movie theater but like nowadays
13:05
it does feel like you're just like how do they
13:07
get you for like what you think is one hour or
13:10
like less than an hour like if you thought you
13:12
were just going to stare at your phone for 15
13:14
minutes and it turns into two hours like that's
13:17
such a win for you because your your time is
13:19
currency for them yeah that's a really good point
13:21
it's hard to um that attention span piece and
13:26
because i do work with i do a lot of work with
13:29
kids i see it firsthand of just how closely linked
13:33
they are to their phone yeah and it concerns
13:37
me but i also have to remind myself that i'm
13:39
of a different generation yeah so i have to hold
13:43
those two mindfully basically yeah you gotta
13:46
try and make that bridge because they've grown
13:48
up with nothing but this yeah that's been their
13:51
whole life and also covid uh you know that's
13:54
been a big part of their life where they've been
13:56
separated and parents are at work at home so
13:59
ipads might really be like very present right
14:01
so yeah yeah yeah it's wild time um it's interesting
14:06
that we brought up algorithms so early in this
14:09
and i'm grateful that dan did bring some clarity
14:13
as i did not truly believe in them yeah um but
14:17
more back about us making art and thinking more
14:21
about the algorithm like is that something that's
14:23
in your mind when you're either making art i
14:26
guess you know pictures or visual art For me,
14:29
I have noticed that I used to make so many nature
14:32
reels where I just filmed nature for 30 seconds
14:35
and it was like calm and pretty. And I really
14:37
enjoy doing that. And I will probably keep doing
14:40
that. But I've recently started making reels
14:42
of myself making art almost as this weird proof
14:46
that I am making art and it's not AI art. And
14:51
yeah, as a way to like prove my own humanness.
14:55
I don't know. I feel the same way for the, for
14:58
a lot of the content I was doing before was gym
15:00
stuff and same with art stuff. Cause you're like,
15:03
now I have two different battlegrounds. I'm trying
15:05
to prove myself onto constant battlegrounds.
15:07
And yeah, you're just like, it's like, I feel
15:11
like it's a fail if I don't have a bench press
15:13
video, or I feel it's a fail if I don't have
15:15
like any sort of progress video in my. when it
15:18
comes to um just drawing and uh it's it there
15:22
does become a bit of a pressure that like the
15:24
more you do it like the i don't know it just
15:27
becomes like a repetitive thing i think dan's
15:30
tapping on that earlier and i i wonder if it's
15:33
a subconscious it's subconsciously it's because
15:35
that's also what you see online like there's
15:39
so it's a quite a popular thing for people to
15:42
film themselves doing stuff making food making
15:45
art like a lot of artists their most viewed uh
15:49
real like stuff on instagram is them making it
15:52
it's not the actual art yeah and i think there's
15:55
yeah part of that it's like um yeah i don't know
15:59
i think there's maybe part of that it's like
16:01
that's what's also popular and that's what's
16:03
going to get more attention than actually posting
16:05
the finished piece whatever it is yeah and then
16:08
i think like why do i care why do i want strangers
16:11
to watch me make art and why do i want them to
16:15
like it Like, does it really matter? Am I, is
16:19
my motivation external at that point? Am I not
16:22
making art for myself? Does it become inauthentic
16:25
at that point? Is that really the kind of art
16:28
I want to make? So many questions that I think
16:30
of. Yeah. Yet post anyways. Well, it becomes
16:34
a bit of an art factory at that point. Ooh. You
16:37
know, if you're, if you're just like, okay. Cause
16:39
I felt the same sort of pressure of being like
16:41
11 o 'clock best time to post when I'm drawing.
16:44
And it's like. you're almost on a time crunch
16:47
and i found i was drawing something uh for the
16:50
day the next day and like that's when i would
16:52
post it so like you're just trying to just stay
16:54
a day ahead or it wasn't like live or anything
16:57
like that and i do see what dan says like i when
17:01
you're watching somebody draw or do something
17:03
it is much more interesting than it's still framed
17:06
even though like it's taken a lot of time and
17:08
effort to for people to make something like this
17:10
it's now um it's just it's hard to just basically
17:14
be like all right that's a picture and it was
17:16
kind of one of the things that like we were talking
17:18
about when i showed my buddy my art book and
17:20
he literally just went one two three four three
17:23
like through every single page so fast and i
17:24
was like okay and uh yeah it's i think the the
17:29
seeing of making something is probably a little
17:32
bit more eye -catching right yeah and you know
17:34
biased opinion as an art therapist i always want
17:37
to know the process because that's the the meat
17:40
of the content you know like how did you make
17:43
this you know what came up as you were making
17:45
this yeah i don't think this oh no sorry go on
17:49
oh no go ahead then I was going to say, I don't
17:52
think there's anything wrong with that. And there's
17:54
really, I mean, there's also great art about
17:56
making art. There's great documentaries that
17:58
themselves are pieces of art about films being
18:01
made or about a painting or whatever it is or
18:04
an album. I don't think there's anything wrong
18:05
with that. I just think it's the question of
18:07
why are we doing it? If you are really interested
18:10
in showing the process, then that's art in itself.
18:12
And that's really interesting. But if you've
18:15
done like what I've done sometimes where I'm
18:17
posting. picture of me you know shooting a video
18:21
or doing something else where I'm like just doing
18:23
that for a couple likes because that's going
18:25
to make me feel good that's not authentic I really
18:28
wanted to show the process I would make something
18:30
interesting out of it yeah so do you think that
18:34
it's better to basically uh just like take your
18:36
time with your posts when it comes to it it depends
18:41
what you want to do like yeah yeah do you want
18:43
followers do you want like I think all I mean
18:46
you just said like you you sometimes are working
18:48
for the next day's post i do that with pictures
18:51
all the time where i'm like oh i've hit my limit
18:53
it's too late at night yeah i'm i can't post
18:56
this now so i'm gonna do it tomorrow yes but
18:59
why like no one it's that there's a weird almost
19:03
perverse thing when you're like planning ahead
19:05
and um Again, it just depends if that's what
19:10
you're interested in. Great. But I'm not. I'm
19:12
just doing it for the wrong. I'm doing it for
19:15
the wrong reasons, I guess. Yeah. And how do
19:17
we remain authentic on social media? Because
19:21
it sounds like it's hard to. Yeah. i think because
19:25
i think we talked about this a little bit earlier
19:27
in one of our episodes about being different
19:29
almost different people with different groups
19:31
of things so the way you would present yourself
19:33
on social media and most people do uh is just
19:38
showing the best things the highlight reel like
19:40
the the you making the process like these are
19:44
all things that we're just thinking about doing
19:45
just for the extra likes or the you know the
19:49
little bit of engagement but i found when i was
19:52
doing my art i was in a uh i was kind of stuck
19:56
in bed right so i had gone through dan i don't
19:58
know if you know this but had a uh had a pretty
20:01
major surgery and that's when i started getting
20:02
into art um and i found because while i was doing
20:07
it i was getting engagement and that was like
20:10
my only way to sort of get engagement apart from
20:14
like my mom and my sister who were in my house
20:16
at the time, they like take care of me. It was,
20:18
it was a way to sort of reach out, you know?
20:21
Yeah. That like lifeline almost. Yeah. It's a,
20:25
and it can be a great lifeline. It's, it's truly
20:29
something that's like really special. Like when
20:31
you do make these little links and smaller things.
20:34
And I think that that's something that I've been
20:35
trying to strive with more. And I've, I've sort
20:39
of disengaged from Instagram. and my a lot of
20:44
my social medias uh solely to basically just
20:48
kind of live a little bit more in like the moment
20:50
so like that might be just doing things in the
20:52
house working around the house and just you know
20:55
fostering relationships in the real world and
20:59
that is kind of a funny thing where you're pulling
21:02
back but when I go on, I feel like the engagement
21:05
that I'm there with is really worth something.
21:08
Like I'm there. I'm like, I'm here for 25 minutes.
21:11
I'm going to go through all the messages and
21:13
then I'm going to respond. And then I'm just
21:15
going to wait again for like the next day. I
21:18
can vouch for that. I do. A lot of our communication
21:21
happens like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also just
21:24
realizing that if John hadn't started sharing
21:28
his art on social media, we would not have reconnected
21:32
and started this podcast. So as much as we're
21:35
like, oh, be mindful of your relationship with
21:37
social media, we also know that it can be a tool
21:39
to connect. Yeah, we shouldn't say that it's
21:42
all bad. Oh, sorry, go ahead, Dan. No, no, no,
21:45
exactly. I guess just to go a little bit, I'm
21:49
not saying it's all bad. My relationship with
21:51
it is. largely negative but I'm also in a different
21:55
country than I've spent most of my life and I
21:58
need a way to connect with people and and you
22:02
know in the past I've also had great times like
22:04
I used to be a film blogger and I had a really
22:06
really great um community of people who'd read
22:09
my stuff every week and yeah and and that was
22:13
like you know it wasn't really on social media
22:15
but I mean I guess if blogging was is kind of
22:18
social media yeah but that was really healthy
22:20
and a lot of people have that on their instagram
22:23
they have an audience it grows they can interact
22:25
with them and that's really great i think it's
22:28
more just when it becomes unhealthy and yes and
22:33
it's or it starts changing you and i've seen
22:35
lots of artists i really respect on instagram
22:37
disappear suddenly because they like it's a photographer
22:41
or model or something suddenly their audience
22:43
becomes, the pressure becomes too much for them
22:45
because you get this really intense parasocial
22:48
relationship. And I think there's also that weird
22:50
side of it too. Whereas if you were an artist
22:56
or say an actor and you weren't on social media,
23:00
you only get who you run into and you have that.
23:02
But if you're on social media all the time and
23:04
that's your job. you need to kind of interact
23:07
with all those people. And I can't imagine what
23:10
that would be like for you mentally. And yeah.
23:13
Yeah. I'd say it'd be pretty taxing just to get
23:18
that type of engagement all the time and people
23:20
building up a parasocial relationship with you.
23:23
Like it's cool that people enjoy what you're
23:27
doing. And but sometimes that can be quite unhealthy
23:31
when it comes to like certain levels of it. like
23:35
i haven't had too much of it but i It would be
23:40
really tremendously tough to try and keep up
23:42
with everyone. And I don't think you actually
23:44
can if you've like hit a certain amount of engagement.
23:47
There's just no way for somebody to do that all
23:49
day, every day. Yeah, no, that's too much, man.
23:52
Way too much. How do we set boundaries with social
23:56
media, with that like social media centric way
23:59
of making art? Like how do we either step out
24:02
of that? I guess that's two different questions.
24:04
You can answer whichever one or neither one.
24:07
so uh yeah i i got that thanks i i didn't i didn't
24:13
hear that question my mic just kind of cut for
24:15
a second i'm sorry do you want me to repeat the
24:17
question absolutely sorry okay i was going off
24:20
book it was oh it was about setting boundaries
24:22
yeah either with like physically setting boundaries
24:25
with your like physical social media or that
24:29
emotional disconnect of like how do you you know
24:33
keep the pressure of social media out of your
24:36
art making process yeah I think that it's honestly
24:39
the physical boundaries of putting your phone
24:42
down is huge so like I do a little bit of carpentry
24:46
and I have a little box that I was just like
24:48
you're gonna go in this little box and it's nuts
24:52
how much you're like I think I need to check
24:54
that I need to go into this other room and I'm
24:56
like why am I walking into another room when
24:59
I have somebody who, you know, loves me, cares
25:02
for me and is hanging out, is here to hang out.
25:04
And you're like, I need to just go into this
25:07
room to just check how many people viewed a story.
25:10
And once you realize like, you're like, that's
25:13
a little silly. I think. that's when you start
25:15
being like, okay, I need a little bit less of
25:17
this, you know? So that's that. And once you
25:21
start being like, okay, it's silly. It's just
25:23
for fun. Just imagine that the people that you
25:26
are with. So in our parasocial relationships,
25:28
the people that you're with are the people like
25:31
your friends or whatnot. Like that's who you're
25:33
making art for now. And it's not for a faceless
25:36
audience of certain number of views. So, yeah,
25:40
I can. totally relate to the walking into another
25:44
room and as you're doing you're like what am
25:45
i doing but you don't stop yourself and it's
25:48
yeah i i think like setting the bat i used to
25:52
be pretty good with i would post something and
25:54
then delete instagram off my phone or use instagram
25:57
on um the web app or on the web and it's barely
26:01
functional and that's kind of a more healthy
26:04
way of doing it yeah but I wonder if it's like
26:07
really if I wanted to use it and to get my art
26:11
out there. And I'm always torn between privacy
26:13
and wanting to get a bigger audience. Yeah. But
26:17
because I think my Instagram is private right
26:19
now. But I think like the way to do it would
26:22
be to plan how you would plan how you want to
26:24
make art anyway. If you're like, OK, my challenge
26:26
is this month to do this many drawings and I
26:30
will post them on Instagram. But some I'm going
26:32
to try to build something a little bit bigger
26:34
than I'm going to do for, you know. whatever
26:36
an art show or something like that and and I
26:38
think planning it out a bit instead of just being
26:41
like okay tomorrow I'm going to post these pictures
26:43
I think something like that could for me would
26:45
be healthier because I'm constantly thinking
26:47
about physical getting art out into the world
26:50
that isn't on social media and again there's
26:53
nothing wrong with your aim being social media
26:55
but it's just I'm realizing it's not right for
26:58
me yeah like what so you're you just kind of
27:02
mentioned you're in you've moved to a new country
27:05
so you're are you in England and so like you're
27:08
in England right now yeah yeah so like that would
27:11
be like a shock to the system where you had before
27:13
you had all those people in your in your every
27:16
day -to -day but when you move to a new place
27:18
I can speak to this I've moved quite a bit I
27:21
know what it's like to have that long -distance
27:23
relationships with friends and like that's important
27:27
too and it sounds like you might be like when
27:30
it comes to making your art like just being intentional
27:34
would really really help like the way that you're
27:37
like not just to be like I'm gonna throw this
27:39
out here but be like I'm gonna wait maybe a couple
27:42
of days and just go with this one thing that
27:45
I feel good about. And you just want to be like,
27:47
I would just want to show John and Linnea this.
27:49
And then the other things I think might just
27:51
follow, like the people that I enjoy watching
27:54
the most are just genuine people, you know? Yeah.
27:58
Yeah. I, I think one of the difficult things
28:02
for me is that I was doing a lot of filmmaking
28:04
before when I lived in Ottawa and I, that was
28:07
with people. some of my friends and things like
28:10
that. And I don't have that anymore now that
28:11
I'm here. So there's even the like collaboration
28:14
side, I don't have, which is tough, but. one
28:18
of the things I realized the other day I was
28:20
looking at my Instagram because I really want
28:21
to delete it and I was looking at the um very
28:24
very curated uh whatever your feed right for
28:28
you page basically oh no no my profile like literally
28:31
what I've created okay and I was like oh I don't
28:34
want to this is this is something I'm like this
28:35
is really nice these are these photos I'm really
28:37
proud of and I was like if I just printed these
28:40
framed them put them on a wall in my office.
28:42
It gives me the exact same amount of pleasure
28:44
and whatever confidence, but more so if I was
28:48
to submit them to anywhere to try to get them
28:50
put up in a cafe and like in an art show and
28:54
something, it would make a difference. And because
28:57
I just think for me, it's just like the physical
28:59
thing would have the same reward without me needing
29:02
to be in a place I don't think is very healthy
29:04
for me. Better so. better so I draw in cafes
29:08
a lot and that's a way because like I wasn't
29:11
really walking around or doing a whole ton of
29:14
stuff but I was walking and like I would basically
29:17
get people to like people would ask you what
29:21
you're doing and then you'd start these little
29:22
conversations and that was really valuable and
29:25
that's part of the reason why I really like doing
29:27
it like out in public I don't film myself doing
29:31
my art in public I just go there for a coffee
29:33
and I just kind of draw people And that's my
29:36
favorite thing to do. Because more often than
29:39
not, sometimes you'll go in there and nobody's
29:43
going to talk to you and that's fine. But every
29:44
once in a while, you just get that little spark
29:46
of, oh, this is a neat little conversation. And
29:48
they're like, I do art too. And then you'll be
29:51
like, okay, cool. Where did you do art? What's
29:53
your style? And it can build something great.
29:55
And I think if you did have it on your wall,
29:57
it's a great conversation piece for others or
30:00
submitting it to other places and cafes and whatnot.
30:03
so john you are a human golden retriever your
30:08
willingness to talk to people in the world mad
30:12
respect i am not there it helps i i have the
30:17
frame that it helps i'm not really nervous about
30:19
people so yeah i think everybody's pretty friendly
30:23
and if they're not if they're not it's okay we
30:26
can deal with that too so you know i but like
30:30
life is life's good man you just gotta get out
30:32
there just chat with people and it's so tough
30:34
i feel for you man moving to a new place is so
30:37
hard and it's tough to make friends as an adult
30:39
um speaking of life being good we haven't really
30:43
talked about ai and social media um dan i feel
30:48
like you're eager to talk about this can i just
30:51
let you yeah yeah go at it yeah dude take it
30:54
away dan uh well okay i guess give me some questions
30:58
before i go on some long rant but um well just
31:05
like yeah what do we what i and what i'm kind
31:09
of gonna go back on is your how you talked about
31:12
how ai art is engaged with mostly because people
31:16
are bad mouthing it or sharing it with their
31:19
friends because they're like this is freaky or
31:22
whatever and you know guilty as charged i've
31:25
sent john weird ai videos because it's like what
31:28
where are we at in the world now where you can
31:32
watch a video that looks so real yeah but it's
31:36
not yeah the street interviewing yetis and aliens
31:41
for me is just so bizarre like i'm like how are
31:44
these guys doing kick -ass comics like and funny
31:48
little bits and quiffies like it is it can be
31:50
really quippy but i also find it's it's so strange
31:54
like have you ever received an email that was
31:56
basically made by ai like you can tell somebody's
31:59
just that's not their language and all of a sudden
32:02
they started being like it would behoove you
32:05
and you're like james i know you dude you've
32:07
never used the hoove in your whole freaking life
32:10
like where where is this coming from and like
32:13
it's inauthentic i had a buddy he's a great he's
32:17
he's an engineer and when it came to like time
32:20
to write his resumes it was ai was just coming
32:24
out he's like yo i'm gonna get it to like write
32:26
this beautiful resume and he wrote he just sent
32:29
everybody an ai resume and he got like no response
32:33
back because he could just tell it wasn't wasn't
32:35
real i think people are now more into spelling
32:38
mistakes than not like you know yeah yeah what
32:43
was the question again uh i don't know what's
32:45
their question or like just noticing how ai has
32:49
become so prevalent and just how much ai has
32:52
quote unquote improved like some of those weird
32:55
like gymnastic videos where they end up having
32:57
like three legs as they're doing weird tourney,
33:01
gymnastic stuff, but how much it's changed just
33:04
in the last six months and how much it's going
33:06
to change in the next six months is kind of startling
33:08
if I really think too much about it. So Dan,
33:12
feel free to prevent me from spiraling right
33:15
now. Yeah, so I think I've thought about this
33:19
a lot because I think a lot about technology
33:21
over the last 20 years and the big booms of technology
33:25
and how they've been. for people and and um you
33:30
know like uh the cell phone and the smartphone
33:33
and and all these different things and social
33:35
media and and really there there's consumer in
33:39
mind in some way social media less so now but
33:42
originally then and then you start to notice
33:44
things um like 10 years ago with the uh like
33:49
vr no one wanted vr but it was oh it's the next
33:52
big thing meta re changes its name they start
33:55
pushing stuff technology that consumers don't
33:58
want yeah then we had crypto the big technology
34:01
no consumers want that and it's disappeared same
34:04
thing with vr and now ai consumers don't want
34:07
it but industry really really wants it because
34:11
it's going to they think it's good it's basically
34:14
just going to take away all the pesky humans
34:16
and and what we have instead is uh is is AI generating
34:22
things without the people in between for the
34:25
the very you know the one percent of the top
34:27
or the even less than that and I think a really
34:29
good example of that is like recently we've had
34:31
a lot of news stories about this AI generated
34:35
band that's had like millions of streaming that
34:38
article is everywhere why because that's what
34:42
these industries want they want bands like that
34:45
no one wants that music is terrible like it's
34:48
a 70s inspired like It doesn't even make sense
34:51
why that would be popular, but there's lots and
34:54
lots of articles about it because people like
34:56
Spotify want AI generated bands because it takes
35:01
away the bands currently that they're not paying
35:05
much to begin with. But if they're just generating
35:08
bands that are making tons of money and 80 %
35:10
of music on there is AI generated, it's just
35:12
more profit for them. Yeah. yeah sorry that was
35:16
really weird long answer no no no that was a
35:19
good answer that's weird long answers yeah that's
35:22
what we're here for the weirder the longer the
35:24
better yeah yeah dan don't worry you it's like
35:27
what you're saying is all very interesting man
35:29
like don't worry about it like we're here to
35:31
listen to that that's new stuff to me to basically
35:33
hear that 80 of music on spotify is getting to
35:37
no no just to say that's not true yeah i believe
35:41
it i believe it now that's it i'm gonna tell
35:44
everyone I think that's the direction they want
35:48
to go. And that's why we see so many articles
35:52
about that because who's the one pitching those
35:55
articles to these news networks? It's people
35:58
who have something to benefit from more AI music.
36:01
And same thing with social media. I'm seeing
36:05
so many AI -generated videos on social media
36:08
now. At what point, if it's just AI -generated
36:12
posts... what's the and and then AI bots replying
36:16
to them yes what the hell like who's benefiting
36:19
from that yeah what are we even doing on this
36:23
thing anymore I think sometimes it's a call to
36:25
walk away from things when you're just like this
36:27
isn't for me and I'm okay with that Like, I'm
36:30
like, this is, things have changed. Like we were
36:33
talking earlier about being on TikTok and we're,
36:35
I was like, I'm too old for that space. I feel
36:38
like if I'm on there, it's just like, you're
36:39
like this, I'm not going to dance. I'm not going
36:42
to, I'm not going to mouth sing for views. Like,
36:45
even if it changes my life and just, oh, sorry.
36:48
Lip sync for views. No, no, no. Mouth sing is
36:49
right. Yeah. If you're just mouth singing for
36:51
views, like I'm not, I'm not going to do that.
36:54
I'm, I'm just simply not. And it just doesn't
36:57
interest me. And like you're saying. nobody i
37:00
know is sees a ai generated golden labrador and
37:05
is like this is sick like no and like anyone
37:08
who has a little bit of tech savvy is like this
37:10
is just garbage for the most part and uh yeah
37:14
i definitely think it is like those one percenters
37:16
who are just pushing that agenda down our throats
37:18
to basically be like ai is going to be awesome
37:20
i was like it's not it's not that great Yeah.
37:24
And I think humans are always going to, and this
37:26
is my biased, overly optimistic view of the world.
37:29
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think humans
37:31
are always going to want to connect with other
37:33
humans. Yeah. Hopefully. Except for those guys
37:37
who have married AI. Oh, yes. There's the outliers.
37:41
That has happened now. Like one of those guys
37:44
got married to an AI bot, but had a real wife.
37:48
How does that happen? oh my goodness i would
37:52
love to be their therapist there's so much to
37:54
unpack there way too much to unpack there but
37:57
yeah it's crazy also there's more ai being used
38:02
in movies there's that one movie i heard about
38:05
this on a podcast so you know is it is it real
38:10
or whatever but they were talking about that
38:11
movie that about the individual transitioning
38:15
it's a musical anyways they said that ai was
38:17
used in that movie want to call it i know what
38:21
i'm gonna say but that's not what it's called
38:23
um but they said how ai was used and it won a
38:26
bunch of awards or whatever and like most of
38:29
the people i heard talk about that movie thought
38:31
it was garbage so it's just confusing that's
38:35
like okay i would say that's slightly different
38:37
and i can't remember how they use it there but
38:38
also same thing with the brutalist which was
38:41
one of the best films last year um used ai to
38:44
alter some parts where um Adrian Brody the actor
38:50
was speaking in Polish I believe and they used
38:52
AI to like fix his accent that's gross and weird
38:55
and I I don't like that but like that's use of
38:58
like AI tools and and it's also that kind of
39:03
goes to the line of like everything existing
39:05
tools now are just called AI something when actually
39:08
they're they were using kind of pre -existing
39:09
technology so it's like which I think that's
39:13
slightly different than doing producing a video
39:18
that's purely just AI generated because you put
39:20
in a prompt. At the same time, I do think, and
39:23
people have a violent reaction to it, and especially
39:25
people who work in the industry, which is like,
39:27
no, this is taking jobs away. And when you, there
39:31
was a big Marvel show, terrible, but called Secret
39:35
Invasion, and their opening credits were made
39:38
with AI, and it looks awful. And people were
39:42
like, why the hell did they do this? I think
39:45
it's just like, we just want people to get used
39:47
to this so we can eventually replace all those
39:49
VFX artists and use AI to it. It might not look
39:54
as good, but it will cost pennies compared to
39:56
what it would have cost. Yeah. Oh, that like
40:00
money aspect. And like, because I think growing
40:03
up, there was always like, oh, robots are going
40:05
to take over. Hopefully they can do my taxes.
40:07
You know, they can clean my room. they're making
40:10
art and videos and I was like no that's what
40:12
I like that's what I want to be doing you do
40:15
my laundry yeah let me make the art yeah it's
40:19
kind of crazy that we just went completely backwards
40:21
in the sense of I'm like all right like it can
40:24
do all the manual labor but yet we're doing all
40:26
the manual labor and they're doing the fun stuff
40:28
how the heck did that happen yeah they just totally
40:32
flipped it on us I but to like what you're saying
40:35
of like making an AR AI trailer and trying to
40:38
get people used to that idea over like the thing
40:40
like Tim Burton when it came to like he had this
40:43
amazing um it's amazing film with um or there
40:46
was like basically a series it was like a series
40:49
where it was all puppets and like it was just
40:52
really cool to watch and like if you look at
40:55
things like jurassic park those things look more
40:57
real than they do currently like jurassic world
41:01
versus like what we had in like the 19 like the
41:04
in the 1990s basically like we were like how
41:08
did we go so far back that like the old stuff
41:10
that was like put in time crafted and like made
41:13
with paint and like it took forever it had skill
41:16
sets like movie monsters looked way better when
41:19
it was a guy just like like a guy basically just
41:22
taking time to make his art like and make his
41:24
craft like they're truly a master and i think
41:27
people should be paid for that so that they can
41:29
we can get good stuff like these companies are
41:32
making massive amounts of money anyways like
41:34
just let some of us let like the starving artists
41:38
let the people art yeah let them just do their
41:40
art like it is crazy i mean this bike is slightly
41:45
this kind of a tangent but i i swear i can wrap
41:48
it back around so no pressure To that point,
41:52
Jurassic Park, I am fully, I think physical and
41:55
practical effects are a million times better.
41:58
I've read many, many blogs about this and maybe
42:01
a list of rants about it. So I agreed on that.
42:03
Part of the reason CGI looks bad now for getting
42:06
AI is because they make companies bid on projects.
42:11
So companies say, yes, we can do that. And we're
42:13
going to do it for this very low price. And that
42:16
way they get the absolute lowest cost. And as
42:20
a result, companies are trying to make Marvel
42:22
movies that Marvel says, hey, actually, we decided
42:25
to do a new ending to this. We need you to basically
42:28
do it all from scratch in like two weeks before
42:31
release. This actually happened with the movie
42:33
Black Panther. And then these companies are working
42:36
like literally like 18 hour days. and their people
42:39
are paying nothing and it's awful, awful conditions.
42:42
So that's what's happening right before AI was
42:45
even a tool that could be used for this. So imagine
42:47
in five years when AI could be used to... do
42:51
the cgi for the next marvel movie yeah and and
42:54
how bad it'll be then of course they're going
42:56
to go in that direction they don't care it's
42:58
slop it's like the reason why everything's called
43:01
content now that's the most insulting thing to
43:04
call a movie uh whatever a painting a drawing
43:08
it's not content it's it's what it was meant
43:11
to be by the artist yeah that's a word i never
43:14
even thought about until you just brought it
43:16
up now you're like oh just making comp making
43:18
content that's brutal that's that is a tough
43:21
that's a tough way to do it versus like you're
43:23
basically making artists kind of kneel and basically
43:26
be like oh yeah i'm not an artist i'm a content
43:29
creator which means i work for you and i don't
43:32
love that so yeah you work for instagram or like
43:35
whatever social media platform yeah yeah yeah
43:38
basically like we've signed all of our rights
43:40
away anyways like by to all of these giant companies
43:43
for we've never read the terms and conditions
43:46
of anything because it's huge huge lists right
43:50
like it's not for a normal person to ever look
43:52
but we all I'll use it. I think that kind of
43:55
relates to the, what, what is so scary about
43:58
AI though is, and why I don't want to, why I
44:01
feel bad every time I post is because now if
44:06
say 50 people see each story I post and I got
44:10
four likes on it. Great. That makes me feel wonderful.
44:13
But what that's doing is feeding their it's,
44:17
it's just providing content for Meta's AI generation.
44:22
Like, Every time you post anything on Instagram,
44:25
you're giving it to them so they can scrape it
44:28
and train their AI tools on it. That's all, everything
44:33
on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok, it's just
44:38
being used to train AI tools. There's something
44:43
so disgusting about that idea that every time
44:46
I post something, I'm just doing it for their
44:48
benefit because it's more content for them to
44:51
make a better. AI generation tool. And I don't
44:56
know that there's something, including this video
44:58
right now, if you have any of the AI tools enabled,
45:03
this video is, yes, perfect. Because otherwise,
45:06
like all my work calls, they're just going to
45:09
be, because someone enabled AI, which gave Zoom
45:13
permission to train their tools on our video
45:17
calls. Oh, man. no no robots were trained in
45:22
the making of this podcast actually i can't because
45:27
anyways that's yeah much more complicated yeah
45:30
and i'm thinking that's so eye -opening like
45:33
why are they even listening to our grandmother's
45:35
phone calls because that's basically what i use
45:38
zoom for is like big sam big family meetings
45:41
right like where 10 people are all there like
45:44
The interest in that is nothing. Why would you
45:47
want to look at us? Human conversations. Yeah.
45:50
There's a lot of nuance in that. I guess so.
45:53
Family dynamics. Yeah. It's going to need therapy.
46:00
There was a report a few months ago that NVIDIA,
46:05
the big chip company, they were scraping 80 years
46:11
worth of video per day. to train their um yet
46:16
to be released video generation tool so what
46:18
that means is every day they were pulling from
46:20
the internet 80 years worth of length of video
46:25
um and it's going through it all day and so that
46:29
was pulling illegally from all of netflix all
46:33
libraries they just pulling pulling they probably
46:36
with training that tool took almost the entire
46:39
like all video of existing video you know the
46:42
majority of existing video to train that tool
46:45
yeah just think about like from that from like
46:47
an artistic perspective like what could be more
46:50
anti -art and human than that than a tool that's
46:54
not going to be able to generate you know a pregnant
46:56
sonic the hedgehog uh holding hands with like
47:00
uh garfield or something like great that's wild
47:03
i'm yeah i think i think we're better like like
47:06
what i was saying earlier with I'm stoked to
47:09
see a spelling mistake in an email now. So, and
47:13
I think that our actual, like the flaws are actually
47:16
what make things perfect. Like the human aspect
47:18
of things. I have jittery hands. So when I, when
47:22
I draw, I'll never get a straight line. And there's
47:24
something with our mistakes that I actually like
47:27
and appreciate more because the parts that aren't
47:30
like with the mistake and are kind of perfect.
47:33
And I know for a fact that somebody made that
47:35
or spent so many hours that kind of makes me
47:38
love it more. So I think the best way for people
47:41
to kind of get. stoked on art again would basically
47:43
go to a museum where it's it's there on paper
47:47
it's there in front of you like the way you were
47:49
saying with taking your photos and then putting
47:53
them on a wall it's being intentional with it
47:56
and you do have to realize that a lot of these
47:59
programs are just trying to take your time and
48:02
get data on you. And like for a while, who freaking
48:05
cares what I do? Who cares what most of us do
48:08
on a day -to -day basis or what I like? But you
48:12
just got to learn a small way. I think that us
48:15
and our listeners should all kind of take from
48:16
this is just take the time to just be present.
48:20
That's hard for people. It is so hard, but I
48:23
can guarantee you as somebody who's kind of on
48:25
the other side of it a little bit, it's very
48:27
much worth it. yeah i respect that i was just
48:31
thinking that instagram has become like the modern
48:34
day shopping channel because i've heard so many
48:36
people like oh i bought this on instagram and
48:38
this one example i'm thinking of is this person
48:40
bought this really cool shirt but it was made
48:42
with like really synthetic gross material and
48:45
it was very stiff and he didn't like it and i
48:46
was like you bought something online like it
48:49
was marketed to you tailored for you tailored
48:53
for you exactly and it was made overseas probably
48:55
by someone making like five cents an hour yeah
48:58
but it got you hooked no they well they they've
49:01
they do know you well enough to be like if instagram
49:05
could buy you a gift you would love it every
49:07
time you'd be like god dang it i hate that you
49:10
know me this well or The targeted ads that I
49:14
get now, I'm in a taking a mediation course and
49:17
we talk a lot about like family conflict and
49:19
divorce and I'm getting so many targeted ads
49:22
for like divorce people things like this software
49:26
for divorce. Like, and I, and I'm, it's not that
49:30
I'm like looking it up on my phone. I can guarantee
49:32
it's because they're listening to me and the
49:34
content of the course that I'm taking now. Yeah.
49:37
Such a spooky feeling. Very freaky. That was
49:41
like something that people would like make up.
49:43
You knew someone was going schizophrenic. If
49:45
you're like, the FBI is listening to me, you'd
49:47
be like, okay, Greg, get over it. But then like
49:50
now it's like, no, no, we all now, we know. Greg,
49:54
you were kind of ahead of the bell curve here,
49:55
but yeah, we've willingly done that. Yeah, we
50:00
live in a very strange timeline right on. Now
50:05
what? I feel like we tapped into some very like
50:08
icky, icky fields. How do we make it feel good?
50:13
so how would your relationship with ai like if
50:17
you could improve it and just sort of use it
50:19
more as a tool for you dan what would you do
50:21
or is it okay to even use it as a tool now because
50:24
it sounds not cool i i wouldn't and um for a
50:30
couple reasons like from an art perspective i
50:32
know i just don't agree because just because
50:35
it's been fed illegally uh with the content of
50:39
millions of artists and people i just think that
50:41
i don't want to use that on the other side it's
50:44
also just so horrendously bad for the environment
50:46
that no matter what you're doing with it's not
50:49
worth whatever you're producing um so i i wouldn't
50:53
do it that said i know people have a lot of use
50:57
for for ai tools and and i also think ai tools
51:00
are all built the same they don't all mean the
51:03
same they're not the same technology there's
51:05
a lot of things called ai that are just pre -existing
51:08
things that we used before. It's just a snazzy
51:12
term for people to basically get hooked. It's
51:14
like, oh, it has AI technology. And you're like,
51:16
why does my microwave need AI technology? Yeah.
51:20
Or like Grammarly was a tool people used a lot
51:24
before and they say it's AI powered. Yeah, technically
51:28
it is, but it's the same as it was before. It's
51:33
just that. it's similar technology to what what
51:36
was being used or what's used for like ai generation
51:39
yeah um but just the amount of money and money
51:44
and and whatever just environmental destruction
51:47
happening um like every single day because of
51:51
ai yeah and just from the towns who have no drinking
51:54
water because a huge uh data farm was was built
51:58
beside them like anyway so From that side, I
52:01
would say. Tell me about that one. Oh, dear,
52:03
yeah. Okay, that's in multiple places. In the
52:09
US, there's some huge, huge data farms being
52:12
built and ones that are already built. And as
52:16
a result, because they take up so much water,
52:19
a lot of the, like if there's a surrounding town
52:22
nearby, they just don't have clean drinking water
52:25
because all of it's being diverted to the data
52:29
farms. Oh, I hate that. And yeah, it's, it's,
52:33
if you start, I wouldn't even say like, this
52:35
is the thing is I was to a lot of like investigative
52:39
journalism around like technology and it's so
52:41
depressing because the stuff is just happening,
52:44
happening at such a fast rate. And I do feel
52:48
like, and my hope is that it's so expensive.
52:51
Like none of these companies are making money,
52:53
like none of them because it's so expensive.
52:56
And my hope is that this just blows up. And AI
53:00
will still be around, but for the most part,
53:03
companies can't afford to use it the way they
53:05
currently are. Like we're in an AI bubble. like
53:09
it'll be like a betamax or a fax machine crypto
53:12
yeah yeah yeah crypto was in in everything um
53:16
nfts everyone's talking about art nfts yeah where
53:19
the are those like no it's literally they're
53:24
they're just coins now is what they they've started
53:27
calling uh crypto like so i knew quite a few
53:31
people who were into crypto because everyone
53:33
did But like, I know some guys who made it big
53:36
and then lost it. And it was just crazy to watch
53:38
people be like, I'm putting money into Bitcoin.
53:41
And I know a few people who put money into Bitcoin.
53:44
And that was like winning the lottery. Like truly,
53:46
like they were like, I bought three or four,
53:49
like hundreds of these coins. Or like, I knew
53:51
a guy in high school who was into crypto. And
53:53
I was just like, and he was super duper rich.
53:56
And you're like, how was this even fair? Yeah.
53:59
And like. it's it's like marketing on steroids
54:03
because the thing is the thing is like with the
54:06
uh with crypto it you could trade all day every
54:09
day versus the before trading it was it was there
54:12
was the banking nine to five and so then you
54:16
have these people addicted and just on these
54:18
coins and trying to farm them and like watching
54:21
people just throw their money into these things
54:23
and sometimes they're tanking but i think you're
54:25
right it sounds like just a lot of the top guys
54:28
are pretty much pushing it on us and the people
54:32
we're actually the voice. We don't want it. So
54:34
I collectively, we do have power and it's just
54:38
one of those things. If you don't use it, you're
54:40
going to be better off in your life and it will
54:42
help and benefit us in other ways. And I think
54:45
you're totally right of it just being maybe a
54:47
fad, maybe, maybe not. Maybe I'll be working
54:49
for a robot in three years, but yeah, no, like,
54:54
like I'm hoping I don't end up working for a
54:56
robot and this comes back and bites me in the
54:58
ass, but it just is what it is, you know? But
55:00
like we, yeah we don't need it yeah yeah i see
55:05
that it's and i like that it's just such a nuanced
55:07
topic and like there's a part of me that knows
55:12
people who are involved in ar art making And
55:17
they feel empowered. They're like, oh, I can
55:19
make art now. And I'm not one to be like, well,
55:22
that's not real art or whatever. Like you didn't
55:24
make that because they were involved in the process.
55:27
And they're, you know, the Art Therapy Association
55:30
in Canada is doing more research on using AI
55:33
art in a therapeutic setting for that accessibility
55:37
piece. But there's, again, there's so many different
55:41
layers of understanding to that. And I am just
55:44
such a skeptical person. yeah i feel like that
55:47
would have to be such a strange environment to
55:50
feel like let's get relaxed by talking to basically
55:53
hal from like the future you're like i this doesn't
55:57
feel relaxing i don't want to be dave like around
56:00
the spaceship being like trust me you you like
56:03
sitting on comfy chair and you're like no like
56:05
get the hell away from me man you know yeah i've
56:09
also had people be like oh in between my sessions
56:12
with you i have really good conversations with
56:15
chat gbt or whatever and I was like okay you
56:18
know that's and I also have again this lofty
56:23
belief that we are always going to want human
56:25
connection as a therapist who works primarily
56:27
in person I see that the people who choose to
56:30
work with me want to be in this space in like
56:33
a human face -to -face interaction so I don't
56:37
worry about that sort of reality where Everyone's
56:41
job is taken over by AI, but I can't predict
56:45
the future. So yeah, I'm curious, yet optimistic.
56:50
i'm kind of with you on that and i think dan
56:53
was totally right when he was saying like these
56:55
companies are shilling out millions of dollars
56:58
that's like you know and it's not really paying
57:00
off if you're saying that none of them are really
57:02
profitable yet it's i mean the thing that the
57:05
tough thing is they're not profitable because
57:07
of how unbelievably expensive it is to run these
57:10
things and because that the way the technology
57:14
works, it requires so much computing power to
57:18
just, and when every time they make the technology
57:20
better, it takes up more computing power. So,
57:24
you know, like generating a little picture is
57:27
to actually takes up a considerable amount of
57:29
water. And I think like costs like that, it adds
57:33
up. That said, technology can improve. I think
57:36
the stuff coming out of China, like there was
57:37
a new technology there that was much more energy
57:39
efficient. That's unfortunate. I don't want to
57:42
hear that, that it's getting better. I don't
57:46
want to hear things are getting better. No, I
57:48
don't want to hear about the AI is getting better.
57:52
It's, it's, but like, also, yeah, I think the
57:55
question of like, is AI art? I'm kind of less
57:59
interested in that. Like, I guess technically,
58:01
yes, but that doesn't. it's good but if someone's
58:04
using it in an interesting way then great for
58:07
them if they that's what they want to do yeah
58:09
I at the same time I think like the way we make
58:12
art is partly interesting who you are the way
58:15
you do it is interesting and like an outsider
58:18
art can be you know someone doing outside art
58:21
could be someone scribbling on a piece of paper
58:22
and that's art but it's interesting because of
58:25
who it's coming from and their voice and everything
58:27
like that yeah and if you type in a prompt into
58:31
chat gbt that is not interesting but if you generate
58:35
a picture print it uh make a collage out of that
58:39
a bunch of different things yeah maybe maybe
58:41
that's art because you put enough human into
58:43
it put enough human into it yeah i like that
58:46
um maybe to wrap things up are there any other
58:51
closing remarks i was going to share some art
58:53
that i made as a inspiration from today's I almost
58:58
said session. This is not therapy. No, it's not
59:00
art therapy. Today's episode, yeah. It's not
59:01
art therapy. We are very clear that this is not
59:04
art therapy. Very clear. I made, so slightly
59:09
inspired by... John's silk screening abilities
59:13
I did my own silk screening out of a silk screen
59:16
that I made in 2014 I'm guessing and it still
59:20
works which is surprising and I just made a whole
59:23
bunch of prints and it says support local artists
59:26
because there is a restaurant that I have to
59:29
walk by Every day as I walk to work and walk
59:32
home, that has a AI -generated picture of a hamburger.
59:35
And every time I see it, I'm like, that is a
59:37
local photographer that did not get a job taking
59:39
a picture of a hamburger. So I'm going to...
59:44
Turn these into posters and I'm going to put
59:45
them up around the city to remind people to support
59:49
their artists friends. I think that's a great
59:51
way to do it. Just remind people that like you
59:53
see, I'm starting to see that too now where you're
59:56
like, there are just advertisements that are
59:58
just AI generated. So I'm like, actors aren't
1:00:00
getting jobs. artists aren't getting jobs like
1:00:03
you said the photographer who is stoked to draw
1:00:06
a ham or sorry take a picture of a hamburger
1:00:08
which is like god that's that's a low bar but
1:00:12
i mean it's still a job a job is a job especially
1:00:15
the more we practice these things like the better
1:00:17
we get at it so yeah just i don't know i think
1:00:21
they have to do things now where it's like they
1:00:23
have to show it's got to be there has to be some
1:00:25
way to basically be like this advertisement was
1:00:27
made by ai just tell us yeah more regulations
1:00:30
absolutely yeah I see that. And I know they're
1:00:34
like on Instagram, at least they, you have to
1:00:36
tell them if it's AI, but like who's policing
1:00:39
that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. That's tricky.
1:00:43
That's toughy. Tough one for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:47
So make humans make art. That's your homework.
1:00:51
Yeah. Humans make whatever the frick you want.
1:00:55
Yeah. And we're going to love it regardless.
1:00:57
Yeah. Songs for our playlist. oh did we do our
1:01:03
homework i do know the song better on my own
1:01:06
but it's a it's i can't remember the name of
1:01:08
the artist off the top of my head so better on
1:01:10
my own hopefully spotify will curate that right
1:01:12
to you but we will put it into our playlist so
1:01:14
yeah we'll do that yeah dan do you have a song
1:01:17
yes uh this is actually i should have gone really
1:01:21
really positive um so maybe i'll give an alternative
1:01:25
to that you can do two if you want okay yeah
1:01:29
um four okay my my really not negative song is
1:01:32
um or my very negative song is is no sorry my
1:01:35
very negative one is four degrees by um anani
1:01:39
yeah uh who if you don't know the song it's it's
1:01:43
a doozy and it's incredible uh one of my favorite
1:01:45
artists um but yeah it's about climate change
1:01:50
and uh other things and it's uh yeah Yeah, it
1:01:54
really had me thinking about that after I was
1:01:56
thinking about AI for the last few days. The
1:02:00
positive song, just because it makes me happy,
1:02:03
is Cure for Me by Aurora, which is just a great
1:02:09
song that you could dance to. Oh, I love that.
1:02:12
I have a song by the Arctic Monkeys. I can't
1:02:18
choose which one. Maybe Do I Want to Know. Do
1:02:21
I Want to Know. by the arctic monkeys because
1:02:23
like do i really want to know what's going on
1:02:25
behind the ai curtain you know am i so optimistic
1:02:29
because i haven't done the research of all the
1:02:32
layers of complexities and nuance you know my
1:02:35
optimism bubble will not pop i will pop it I
1:02:39
won't. I'm not going to pop it. I appreciate
1:02:41
you. Thank you. In order for this episode, we're
1:02:44
going to either forehead kiss AI or stone cold
1:02:47
stunner it. Either way, we'll get it to generate
1:02:49
it for itself. Right on. Sweet. Well, thanks
1:02:54
for listening, everyone. I hope you're not too
1:02:56
bummed out leaving this podcast. If so, go look
1:02:59
up some puppies online or something. Some cute
1:03:01
little cats sneezing. As long as they aren't
1:03:04
AI generated. Yeah. Thank you so much, Dan. Yeah.
1:03:08
Thanks for joining us, Dan. Yeah. I feel great.
1:03:12
You're welcome. Anytime. Maybe more positive
1:03:15
next time. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome back. Sweet.
1:03:18
All right. Bye everyone.