Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Anger, Relationships & Divorce - with Benjamin Watkins

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Anger, Relationships & Divorce - with Benjamin Watkins · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, the podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartnell, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: In soulful, deeply supportive DMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Wurundri people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm chatting with Benjamin Watkins of Benjamin Watkins Counselling and Coaching.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Benjamin is Mornington Peninsula's premier performance counsellor and coach, helping his clients to perform, excel, and transcend.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Benjamin, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Let's kick off.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do, and always more interestingly, I think, why you do it?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a counsellor, um, qualified counselor.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I always like to put that in because counselling is um an area where people can just call themselves a counselor, unfortunately.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a qualified counselor and performance coach.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm a father, partner, bloke.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm in private practice.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: I so I support people from just general, gen general counselling, so anxiety, stress, depression, things like that, as well as performance-based counselling and coaching, um, which is trying to help people perform at their best so they don't have to necessarily be going through a trauma.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: They don't necessarily have to be depressed, anxious, stressed, anything like that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just work with people to get the best versions of themselves out.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's in work, sport, business, relationships, anything.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: And why?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's a really good question.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh I'm I'm from divorced parents and and I did some counselling as a kid.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and all the counselors I had were always old guys, so 70-year-old blokes who just didn't know anything, didn't know what Green Day was who Green Day was, for example.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, pretty much.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I just sort of thought there's there's a spot here to help people, and also uh as a business, business sense here, there's a spot for a guy who's in his mid to late 30s um to get in and help people out in a different way and put a different spin on it rather than being someone who's a little bit older or um or female because a lot of the counsellors are female, so there's an option for for blokes to come out and get some support as well.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've and I again that's I shouldn't say again because I haven't I've thought about it, but I haven't actually spoke about it.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: One reason I really wanted to get you onto the podcast is because you know men are often resistant to reach out and work with a counsellor, but they'll they'll more readily um approach a coach, I've found anyway.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So leading on from that, who who do you work with?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Who is your ideal client?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess my ideal client's someone who's willing to do the work.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um that there's there's quite a lot.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: I get quite a lot of uh teenagers, parents bringing in their teenagers, people that that know they want change but don't really want to do the work.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I do a lot of work with anger, um especially with men, and that that can be quite difficult because they're told they have to go, either by court, by a partner, someone like that.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they end up coming in going, I don't really want to be here.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And they sit with their arms crossed for for 50 minutes for you know a number of sessions, and and I I end up saying to them, Hey, you're just wasting your time and your money, let's let's get something from this.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that that that's my ideal client, someone who's who's willing to do the work and has a has a goal in mind.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Just it can be a loose goal.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be a firm goal, but just something they want to work towards.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I want to dive right into that anger part.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I really wanted to ask you about anger, because I find with my clients often anger is a secondary response or emotion, and there's often something else at play.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh definitely anger is never the primary emotion.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's the primary thing we see, though, and it's the primary external response.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's never the actual the pain, the emotion that we're feeling.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's what happens when we get hurt some way, whether it's emotionally, physically, um, something like that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it creates this angry response to say everyone sees the anger because it's come to the surface then it's too late.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: We've been hurt.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you're 100% right there.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's never actually what's going on, um, but it's what what comes out for the world to see.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is going to sound like super obvious, but I wanted to ask you how do you see anger impacting our ability to relate to one another, to be in relationship with one another?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's that simmering, silent type of rage versus the explosive volcano or volcanic kind of reaction.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So can you speak to the effect that each or anger has on our capacity to relate to one another?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: It just it blocks so much.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Anger's like the ultimate wall.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: It puts a wall up between any sort of relationship you have with people, whether it's um in a romantic relationship, a work relationship, friendship, anything like that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Even just just going down the street and ordering a coffee.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you're angry with someone because you had to wait in a line, that relationship's busted.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you get to your time to order, they're just gonna be rude to you, you're gonna be rude to them, it's gonna be terrible.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if you're angry when you meet someone, for example, say the first time I met you, I was angry, you were angry either way, we wouldn't think much of each other going forward.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because what we're seeing is the anger, we're not seeing the hurt, the pain, whatever's going on underneath.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or in a relationship, for example, if one person gets angry during a conversation, um, neither one of the people in that conversation, either side, get to truly express how they feel.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um and over time, if if if one party's always angry, the other person won't be willing to open up and share.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that's not good for any sort, again, for any sort of relationship, like I mentioned before.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's just gonna block it, and you're just gonna find that no one's gonna be willing to talk, no one's gonna be willing to engage, um, and you're just gonna have these really shitty relationships that are the one one person gets angry and the other person doesn't get to say what they want.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and doesn't get, as you said, doesn't get to express themselves, doesn't get to feel seen or heard.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's neither is neither is seen or heard because the anger's just in the way.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and what you said about the the simmering versus the volcano sort of um anger, um, funnily enough, they both have the same final impact.
• 7:03
  unknown: Right.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it both ends in pain and and and often loneliness, um, whether it's emotional or physical loneliness.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um the explosive type's got a faster impact because it's it's seen and other people can can judge that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, if if I had an angry outburst now, everyone would be able to hear it, you'd be able to see it, you just shut your laptop, walk away.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, whereas if I just let it simmer, you wouldn't see it for a while and and it come out later on.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the problem with the simmering anger is that other people don't see it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're in a relationship, um everyone might think, oh, that that guy's a great guy.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: He's a great guy.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: What do you know?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're not seeing it because they're able to hold it in and then simmer along for a while and then it pops up later on.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it can be it can be targeted more um and it can be more hurtful, but at the end of the day, it's the same result.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're just gonna ruin whatever relationship it is.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Death by a thousand cuts versus one big explosion.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty much.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Can anger ever be a positive force?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, um awareness is the key with angry, with with being angry and making anger a positive force.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um think about the things you can do when you're angry.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you might push physically harder, um, you might stand your grand on a topic.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they're both positive traits, yeah, they're both positive things.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we've got to have control of them, be aware of it.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I know you're gonna probably gonna get a dip in people listening right now, but if I mentioned the big bash cricket the other night, um Tom Rogers from the Renegades was involved in a bit of a controversy.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a bit of a run out at the bowler's end controversy.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: He he was batting, he's not a batsman, he's a bowler.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but when he came out to bowl, he bowled career best figures.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because he was angry.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: But he he was aware of that and channeled it rather than just let it go and started flipping off, you know, opposition players, starting, you know, not yelling at the crowd, cracking at the umpires.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: He just went out there and channeled that angry into physical um ability.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: He took it out physically, but in a positive way.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's definitely, definitely possible to use it physically, uh positively, sorry, but it just has to be, you have to be aware of it.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: If you're not aware of it, that's when it just comes out and you get shitty and and bad things happen.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: That and the cricketing example is a really good one.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um because it's it's really obvious and relatable, but we can also use those same techniques, those same skills in interpersonal, more interpersonal relationships, be it intimate partner or at work and stuff.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if it like if you're standing your ground, you know, if you're more angry, you're more willing to stand your ground potentially on a subject.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you can use that anywhere.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: You can use that whether it's something that's going against your values in a relationship, you can use that while haggling for a the price of a car, whatever whatever it is, um, you can channel it and use it positively.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the how, I want to ask you about the how.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: How can we regulate our emotions, so our anger or other so-called bad in inverted commas emotions, so that they we can use them as a positive force in our lives and therefore like perform and live as our best selves.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, that that that's uh how long's a piece of string sort of question.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's awareness is is is the common thread.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to be aware of what you're feeling.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're not aware of what you're feeling, that's it, you can't ever utilize it, you can't ever change it.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but as as as where you go from there, it really depends on the person.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you might have people that you check in with uh that help you regulate it.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't notice it yourself, it might be a partner, it might be a friend, a work colleague, whatever it is.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you've really got to just be aware.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you're again, if you're not aware, you're gonna have no clue what's going on.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and and so and that awareness might come from how you feel internally, it might come from what you've seen around you, it might come from how people respond to you.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you've got to have that, you've got to have your eyes open.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, you're just you're not gonna ever be able to utilize it, you're not gonna ever be able to keep it in check.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I often talk with my clients about noticing how you feel in your body.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So just starting to check in and really tune into what you're feeling in your body and finding ways just just as you said, just to notice, just to be aware, like, oh, that's coming up.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, so I'm getting that feeling in my stomach again.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, hang on, the last time that happened, I was nervous, or the last time that happened, I was scared about, you know, something, or you know, I was worried something negative was going to happen.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: What am I worried about now?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: What am I thinking about now?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is there something coming up for me now?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and just having that awareness and being able to track it and keep note of it.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that and that's where someone like you know, a coach or a counselor comes in.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you're unable to do that yourself, um and you need someone impartial, you you go speak to someone else.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you sort of touched on this with the cricket example, but I just wonder if there are other if there's a bit more depth to the to this.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna pardon me, sorry, I'm gonna ask it anyway.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: What does good or healthy anger look like?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um look, there's there's nothing wrong with anger if it's expressed correctly.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So what correctly looks like is gonna be different for every person.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um and as as counselors, we we operate with unconditional positive regard, meaning meaning we keep the person in front of us um in a state of positive regard, regardless of what what they tell us, what they disclose.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, positive anger for some people might be going and punching a pillow.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Not that we not that we want to condone violence, but that's that's a safe way of expressing anger because no one's getting hurt.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um positive anger might be going for a run.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: It might be going somewhere safe where you can yell and scream.
• 12:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: It might be, you know, ha having someone you can go, you know, boxing with, you know, if you if you if that's that's your thing, that's to get that physical side of it out, especially for blokes, getting that physical side of it out.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it might be going having a cry, might be jumping in the shower and having a cry, it might be going to um hugging a friend, might be going yelling and screaming, calling someone up, telling them you need a vent, you need a bitch, whatever it is.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's gonna be different for every person.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: But but being aware of how you express it and how you feel once you do express it, that again, that's the key.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um for for me, for example, um going and punching a pillow is gonna do nothing.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I know a few of my clients love it.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: They've they've they've got one cushion on their couch and they grab it, they go to their room, there's no one around, and they're smacking the crap out of this pillow because that that gets that anger out of their body because they feel it physically.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um whereas I don't often feel anger physically, I feel it more emotionally, so that that's not gonna work for me.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about discovering, so it's first about awareness, as we've already discussed, and then it's about finding ways to release that anger that doesn't impact on other humans basically or animal.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't negatively impact anyone.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I I think that's where we're at as a as a society now that something like punching the pillow is even a bit, or you know, shouldn't be doing that, but we often need that physical um release as well.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember so making sure it doesn't impact anyone's the key.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember when my kids were little, we talked about um, and I'm talking maybe, you know, six and eight, that kind of age.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Anger is a anger is fine.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're allowed to be angry, but it's about how you express it.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about some ways like you can stamp your feet on the ground, you know, you can go outside and yell at a tree, whatever it is.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we had some key ways that they could release that anger.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and doesn't matter whether you're six, eight, or forty-eight, having those core ways that you know work for you, I think is really, really important.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you call it out the fact that you're angry, the the peer person you're around or the people you're around are okay with it.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: So if I said to you right now, I'm angry as all hell, and then I went in a tirade and said the yellow and screaming, you'd go, Oh, that's cool.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: He's angry.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't an attack on me.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't, you know, this is the he's he's expressed the fact he's angry.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas often we don't say that we're angry and it comes out and then like, holy shit, where did that come from?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: They hate me.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: What have I done?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is it me?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I've I've been angry at something at work or I've been angry at something that I need to ex need to get it out, but I just haven't done it the right way, haven't communicated.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think society too tells us that anger is not okay.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're not allowed to be angry.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think there is a gender difference.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, women are not allowed to be angry in this sort of way, and men are not, you know, allowed to be angry in this kind of way.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: But anger is real and it's uh we all feel it at different times.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And finding healthy ways to express it and communicate it, I think is key.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%, 100% right.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, if we find anger is impacting our relationships, and here I am talking about intimate partner relationships, if we find it is impacting our intimate partner relationship in negative ways, it's getting in the way of our capacity to relate to one another, one another, our partner, or even our kids.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: What's the first step?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, seek help, talk to someone impartial.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: So um I'm gonna counsellor, so I'm gonna call that out there.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: I know this is a bias, but I'm gonna say okay, see a counsellor, don't see a psychologist because they're more in the medical field, they they diagnose, assess, things like that.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is where you just need someone to talk to.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: You need someone impartial to talk to.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: So um again, I know it sounds like I'm selling, selling myself and my industry, but it this is where we come in because we're not we're not a friend, we're not another family member.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if if I call up a friend, because I want to, you know, I'm I'm fine and my partner's angry and I want I I want some support, they're gonna go, oh yeah, she's a bitch.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he's a he's a bitch.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Don't worry about it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or vice versa, you know.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: If if my partner calls up a friend and goes, Oh, Ben, you know, Benjamin's been being angry, oh yeah, don't worry, he's a prick.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he deserves it, whatever.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're they're they're on our side.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to find someone impartial to start talking to and start to get the steps.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we if it's us being being angry, we can get that support.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I do an anger management program.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we can start to understand that anger, start to understand how we utilize it and what we can do about it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, or if it's the other the other party, so if it's the other person in our relationship, we can start to figure out okay, how can we support them and how can we create a space for them to be able to express what's going on for them?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it doesn't get to the point that they feel angry, or when they are angry, we've got some some boundaries in place and they know how to deal with it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we as their as their romantic partners can deal with it as well, and and family can deal with it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: We touched on this earlier, but I want to ask you to go a bit deeper.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: What are some effective ways to start to understand our anger and bring whatever is underneath to the surface?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I know work with you, work with me, but what about someone who's just really beginning to explore their relationship with anger?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're just starting to notice it.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: First thing to do is say that thing that you don't want to say.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's always something.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, excuse the dogs in the background, there's always something that that is that is underlined, like you said, that we don't want to say to someone.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: So often when we come in to speak to someone, so when someone comes in to work with myself or you, they'll come in and they'll be quite nervous the first session.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: The first session's light and fluffy.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's talking about the painting on the walls, talking about the sporting teams, talking about what they did in the weekend, the kids, that sort of thing.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: But there's always something that's sitting there.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I ask people to do is towards the end of that session, if I feel it's not getting anywhere and they're not getting any any value, and we could go round and round in circles, they might just think, oh, no, he's he's a nice guy, good to have a talk to, but we're not actually getting anywhere.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'll ask him to tell me that thing they don't want to tell me.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there's always something that that's hiding in in there that they're protecting.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's like a little secret of we're protecting.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: So as soon as you can get that out into the open, um, that opens up different different opportunities to start working with that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: So if that is that I don't feel like I'm enough, um shame or guilt, you know, is is generally the top two.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um so confidence, shame and guilt uh are the top three.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um shame and guilt being the primary two.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: As soon as you say that, that opens up avenues to to do some work and and to start to explore what that is for you, um, which can help you help you work on it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it never gets to the point where you're feeling angry because you're doing the deeper work rather than just the surface level trying to fix the anger.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: When you're feeling angry, trying to fix that, which is just the the result, you're actually fixing the the core problem.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the fear, the shame, the guilt underneath.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you and you do that with someone.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I know I've said it before, but you do that with a professional because they're not biased.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're not attached to the outcome, which which sounds super weird.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and people say to me all the time, like, how do you do this job?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how do you walk away at night and not, you know, go get on the booze?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I'll be honest, I'll have a scotch, but that that's more because I enjoy it.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but I'm I'm not attached to the outcome.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm attached to the process and with the person, but I'm not attached to the outcome.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: If they choose to go on with it or not, that's up to them.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: If they choose to make the changes or not, that's up to them.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what about what about being on the receiving end of someone else's anger?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Again, we touched on this earlier, but I'm thinking our partners, especially.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we're constantly on the receiving end of an angry partner, whether it's the simmering rage or the explosive volcano or whatever, however that anger is manifesting, what tips or strategies do you have for dealing with that?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, first of all, make sure you're safe.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: So safety is always always a priority.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that might not be the time to have a conversation.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: It might not be a time to respond when your partner is angry, it might be time just to walk away.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if you do need to go back and have a conversation, maybe you need to have someone with you to have that conversation to make sure that you are safe, or at least know there's someone else in the house.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: So even if it's a a friend, parent, brother, sister, whatever up the other end of the house um that you can call out to if you need to.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the key is to make sure that they've got space to talk as well.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and they're aware that hey, whatever's going on for you, that that's okay.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: We can we can help that.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or there is help available, but they need to have the space to be able to feel that way.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, asking the question, what is going on for you when you're angry?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, quite often it's not the fact that I didn't put my washing away.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Or you know, my one sock didn't make it into the washing basket when I flipped him across the room.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's not that's not the issue.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: There'll there'll be something else, something else there.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: But creating that space where you can actually have that conversation um is is the key.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's the key to get started.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can't do it when when you're fighting and angry.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: It just doesn't work.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So walk away if you need to, create safety for yourself and then open the conversation.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, which is creating safety for the other person.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess too, it not not expect that you're going to get all the answers the first time you open the conversation.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, or at all.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I th I think I think that's the the biggest one that you might not ever get.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: The answers.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: There might have been something so trivial in that person's day, they might not be aware of what made them angry.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they might have got a soy latte instead of regular milk when their coffee came out and someone cut them off and then something a project was late at work or a client cancelled last minute or something.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: All these things are just added up.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: So nothing really major.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: But all these little trivial things, they might not be aware of.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just shitty right now.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm angry right now.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that might be happening to them quite often.
• 22:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or the little things might be happening quite often that they're not aware of.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So when when you create that space and they say, look, I don't know, you might have to accept the fact that they don't know.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And again, and I guess then the conversation shifts to, well, you need to well, you need to, but deal with your anger outside of the house, outside of this space, because I don't, you know, I don't deserve that or want to do it.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate the fact that you don't know, but it's starting to impact our relationship.
• 22:59
  unknown: Thank you.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And this is this is what I'm seeing.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would like to know what you're seeing, the impact of the relationship being.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um because they might not see it as a negative, they might see it as I explode, um, you know, from a guy's perspective, for example.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I I explode, get angry.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: She tells me to bug her off.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: I tell her to get stuffed.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Two hours later, we're we're back at the dinner table, sitting on the couch, whatever, everything's fine.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I've released it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas the other person hasn't had that chance to release their anger or frustration from that situation.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: You've released your anger and frustration from yeah, from earlier.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: So they haven't had the chance to to release that pain.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so have having that conversation about okay, how do we deal with it?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Don't care if you don't know it, that's fine.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: But how do we deal with it going forward?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we're both good.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that can be really important.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes too, that explosive type of anger, whether it is intimate partner, relationship, siblings, whatever, that explosive anger that doesn't ever get sort of resolved, just leaves wounds that don't get healed.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it chips away over time, even if the person exploding thinks, oh we're good, I just blew up and it's all fine now.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily the case for the other person.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Quite damaging relationship.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: A classic example of this is The Simpsons.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: I I know everything comes in life, comes back to The Simpsons or Kevin Bacon.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's the two.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: But in The Simpsons, Marge Simpson, you just watch how she reacts to Homer.
• 24:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And you watch as the seasons progress.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think I've watched every Simpsons episode.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: But you you watch as the episodes progress how shitty she gets and how she changes.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they've really done a really good job of changing that character.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when Homer goes and does something stupid, she'll go, you know, she'll go get a bucket and get ready to clean up his mess.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the way it changes people.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: And you see you start to see the eye rolls develop or the little comments.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that it can have an impact, uh big impact long term.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: But if you if you want a long-lasting relationship, you've got to learn how to get it out there in a safe way.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's shift gears a little.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I know as well as running your anger management program, you definitely, you know, you support your clients to be their best.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to talk about being their best after a major life transition, like a separation, relationship breakdown, or a divorce.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm really keen to hear your thoughts on the power of being social.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I just noticed that on, I don't know whether it was a social media post or your website.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, the power of being social.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because for many of us, when we go through a major life transition, like a breakup, our first instinct is to, you know, retreat, curl up on the bathroom floor, or numb out with whatever our choice of numbing thing is food, alcohol, Netflix, sex, whatever it is.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So can you explain to me what you mean by the power of being social and particularly as it applies to um major relationship transition?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cool.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: So the power of being social is that when we're social, that's how we form a picture of the world.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so what we see is what our world is.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: So if we're at home eating, drinking, Netflix, sleeping around, whatever it is, that's our that's our world.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: So if you you know, I just watched Ozark finally, I finally caught up, right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: If I just sat and watched Ozark and ate chocolate all day, which I could have easily done and probably did some days, but you know, if if I just did that, that would be my world.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so my world's pretty, pretty small, pretty narrow, if that's my world.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: When you get out there and start being social, you start to open yourself up and you start to see different positive aspects.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm never gonna sit, I'm never gonna sit at home eating uh, you know, my Milky Bar chocolate on the couch, watching Ozark, and have someone look at me.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: If I you know, hypothetically I've left a relationship, um, look at me and go, oh, he he looks all right.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if I'm out in the world, you're gonna have people noticing you and starting to look at you.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's those little social cues that we're gonna pick up on that'll make us feel help it make us feel good.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you're not gonna get that if you just sit at home and do nothing.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna be able to have laughs with friends if you're not out with friends.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna have those new experiences and start to create new positive moments in your life if you're just sitting at home and watch Netflix.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because our uh our brain works with bookmarks.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so a relationship break directly into the bookmark.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's a reference point.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've got to create new reference points now.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: Watching Netflix and and eating chocolate isn't gonna create a reference point.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: But that night we went out and had that really good uh Chinese food, and then we went to the movies and you know, had a couple of cocktails after and went to that mini golf joint.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's a new bookmark because that was a really good night.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to create those new bookmarks and have those social connections and get those social positive cues.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the the hierarchy of needs social connections, one of the most important.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't get that.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we don't get that.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: And especially after after COVID lockdowns and everything, that's one of the problems that that people are fighting with.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I've had three emails this morning before we've recorded this about not people not connecting.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't feel right.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: We need to start practicing connection again.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because our connection was online, was via text, phone calls.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was good because that was what we needed at the time, but now things have changed.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: The world's different, we need to reconnect with the world.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And our version of the world is formed by what we do.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I often talk with clients who are stepping out of a relationship, you know, they're they're moving through divorce or at the other, at the other end of.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're like, it it's it's lonely.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we'll just get out there and hang out where your people are.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't necessarily jump on Tinder immediately or puff or whatever it is.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just get out there and do the things you like to do and hang out where your people hang out, and you will find connection.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you go to have a coffee by yourself and someone says good day to you, you know, awesome.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Someone's noticed you, someone's smiled at you, someone's said have a good day, whatever it is.
• 29:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that that's that social connection that builds back up your confidence and shows you that you're a human.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because you've you've had a relationship, okay.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: That person didn't work with that person, but there's still what seven billion people in the world.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Not all seven billion are gonna hate you.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, not all are gonna hate you.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Not all seven billion.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're right, even Trump's got supporters.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I read one of your recent into um Instagram posts, which was accompanied by a picture of you standing staring unemotionally straight down the camera, arms crossed across your chest.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the caption was, This is what society can often expect men to be like.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: While that's slowly changing, we have to remember that change can take time.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Blokes, it's okay to share how you feel and talk about your feelings, even if you don't know how to describe them or what they are.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Start by saying, I'm not sure how I feel, to someone you trust and take it from there.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, you're in control of the conversation and you can stop it at any time.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: The key is to start.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right, Benjamin, how?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do we best encourage the men in our lives, partners, fathers, brothers, sons, lovers, to share how they feel without them feeling pressured?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's one thing to say, it's okay to share how you feel, blokes, but it's quite another thing for many men in my experience, many men to feel comfortable to actually do it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do we encourage it as from the men in our lives?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And how do men just start?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is it's it's quite a quite a can of worms opening up this one because it's we could have a whole podcast episode just on this.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: We could.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: We could we could we could have about a hundred hours talking about this and still not still not get to the point.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's it's really tricky.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: So as a guy, you've just got to talk to someone, right?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't matter who that is, it doesn't matter what you say, it's just talking to someone other than the football or the cricket.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's gotta be something, you know, I'm having a rough time, whatever it is.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that might be all it is.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: I've got mates that come up to me and just say, I'm just feeling that shit at the moment.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's all they want to say, but that's that's enough for them.
• 31:21
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Cool, no worries, appreciate that.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be more aware of that.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I might send them a text once a week.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of that, I'll send them text every couple of days.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be sending them something funny I saw online or you know, a YouTube clip that they might be interested in on whatever they like, um, just to check in with them and sort of show them that that we care.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: It can be tricky for from a female's perspective, saying to a guy, you just need to open up, you need to share, because the the stereotypical um way society acts is that that women ha have the feelings and and the emotions and the guys don't.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the guys might will turn around and go, off then they they say to me all the time, oh yeah, it's easy for her to say because she gets it.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: She's a she's a woman, she can she feels that sort of stuff.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: So cool, we do too, but we just haven't learned how to express it or how to deal with it, how to verbalise it.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's okay if you can't verbalize it.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: If you go to someone or to your partner and just go, I just feel shit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: My head feels shit, I feel shit physically, whatever it is, that's awesome.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but what we need to do is it you like you said, you we need to not probe.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so asking what they want is really good.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to help you right now, I don't know what I'm gonna say or you know, should or should or shouldn't say, let me know.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want me to shut up and listen?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want me to offer some some advice?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want me to help you find help?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever it is, just ask.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to help you right now.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and let them lead it almost.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if they say I I don't know either, that's cool.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Would you like to explore together?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Don't make it about that person.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Not um I wrote an article a little while ago about how how to help someone that you think needs help, and and the first thing you don't do is hey, you need help.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's projecting And up goes the wall immediately.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need help.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's projecting your shit.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like that that's saying that if you were in that position, you'd need help.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: But the other person's not you.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that might be totally cool with it.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: Their world world might be burning down around them and they're like, okay, whatever.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if that was you, you'd be running around pulling your hair out.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if you need help, I'm here to help.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or we can do it together.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Make it make it a we thing, not a not a not a you thing or an I thing.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good good tip.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because my next question was going to be around the fact that many, many or most of my listeners identify as female, and many of them have been or are in relationships with men.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what message would you give to them if their partner just won't open up?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you've just really answered that question.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just almost stand beside them and just be there and offer ask the question, what do you need?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to help them.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: What do you need?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and don't expect them to be you and and you to be them.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I I one of the books I'm I'm reading.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's got too many books in the go.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even tell you which one.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: But but it but it said the the accuracy in which we get we mind read, right?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: We we assume we know what our partners want.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the accuracy that we get it right, um, after being in a relationship with someone for 20 years is like 7%.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: So 93% of the time that I think I know what's going on with my other half.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: We've been together 19 years, I've got no fucking clue.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: 93% of the time.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So open your mouth and ask the question.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta you gotta you gotta ask because we we're not gonna get it right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And don't expect the person to see what you see or to feel what you feel.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we do, we all do, as humans.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: We we have our own experience, our own, I was gonna say baggage, it's not the right word, but we have our own lived experience.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just expect that you, Benjamin, will feel the same sort of things that I feel, and you'll respond the same way I respond, and you'll need the same help or support or care that I would need, but it's not true.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we haven't known one another 19 years, so the 7% is probably even less.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: It might be 0.7% of the time that I'm not gonna get it right if I'm guessing about what you need.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's you know, there's there's seven billion people in the world, so there's seven billion different versions of the world.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and some are similar, but none of the same.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: None of the same, exactly.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything else you wanted to share on what we've talked about today so far?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Anger, projection, communication.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just if you need help, get help.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it's not major, I th I think that's uh and that's where I take the performance approach that it doesn't have to be a major trauma in your life, it doesn't have to be something that that's gone wrong.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: You can just go and get counseling or support anytime.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just to fine-tune yourself.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you take your car in for a service even when it's you know it's it's not doing that rumbling noise and it's not it's not got that flashing light.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's a great idea.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Just to make sure it's running right.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: And my best mate's my mechanic, and he'll listen to this.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, I will book in to get my car serviced because it's well overdue.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: But we we we do that even though there's nothing wrong.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you can go to a council, get a check-in, um, you know, sharpen up your tools, learn some new tools, go back again.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've got clients that come and see me every three months, every six months, whatever it's just for a check-in.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, this is where I'm at, this is what's going on, blah, blah, blah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you reckon?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: What can I do here?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 36:55
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: We go through we go through some stuff, see you in three months, see you in six months.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be this big dramatic thing that's happened in your life, like a divorce.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can just hop on in, tune up.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as you said, have a tune up, have a check-in.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is where I'm at.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is what's going on.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, this is what I'm thinking.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's someone non um non-biased to talk through your crap with, your decisions with.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not your best friend, not your mother.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:24
  unknown: Excellent.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're all people are going to tell you what you want to hear.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they're invested.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're emotionally invested in whatever the issue is, whether it is something work-related, relationship, divorce, co-parenting, you know, I see it all the time.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ask that person.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, don't, they're going to give you what what you want to hear and they're emotionally invested.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they're really on your side.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not going to call you on your bullshit.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're not going to point out your blind spots, which I think an objective, um, non-judgmental professional can can absolutely do.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing I look for is the the 180.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: I look for the exact opposite.
• 38:01
  unknown: Right.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because I want to know where the exact opposite of what a client's telling me is.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I know that's my that's my point to come from.
• 38:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I can throw that out there and go, hey, this is the exact opposite.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And just to see their reaction.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I never thought of that.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course you didn't, because you're you're invested over here.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to throw out the other side of the spectrum and we're going to work our way all the way along it.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to overthink it, awesome.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: But overthink the whole bloody lot.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Don't just overthink your 5%.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Final question.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a question I ask all of my podcast guests.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you could share a piece of music or a song to support anyone feeling challenged in their relationship, unpacking a breakup or divorce, what would that be?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can I go a little bit inside Hollywood that you asked me this beforehand, so I had a little bit of time to prepare?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: I ask everyone beforehand, so everyone has to.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Excellent.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I went through about a thousand songs.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: I love music.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Good to see you're interested in the podcast.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's excellent.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: I had to do my due diligence.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I had to recharge MediaPods about three times, I think, with the amount I listened to.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh it has to be no, it has to be one.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was it was quite an easy decision at the end.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was I'm still standing by Elton John.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, the lyrics.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like you are still standing, you're still there.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, stronger than you've ever been.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: But also, who doesn't like that that music?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Who doesn't like that?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Who who can't put on that song?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know if anyone can put that song on in the car and not be singing and tapping away.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's possible.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll listeners, let us know.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you can put it on and not enjoy it, not sing away, not tap away, let us know.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you sit there and be miserable while I'm still standing is playing, I'm a little bit concerned.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Crying on the bath, curled up crying on the bathroom floor, and it plays, and you something will be triggered inside you to know that even if you're not physically standing, you will very soon stand up and continue.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought it was very apt, I thought it was a very appropriate song.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and who doesn't love Elton John?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Benjamin, where can listeners find you?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: They can head to my website, benjaminwatkins.com.au, or my Instagram at Benjamin Watkins Counseling.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you head to either one of them, I've got links to everything I do.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you head to my Instagram, you'll have a sneak peek of my new Anger and You program, which six-week program uh helping you understand and support you through your anger and see what's going on there.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: The idea is that we do six sessions over six to eighteen weeks, depending.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, don't want to leave it too long.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we just go through a heap of issues that that's playing out for you.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's good for male, female, anyone.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just ask that the participants are over the age of 16 just because they've got a bit of a better grasp on what's going on emotionally.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it would work for young for younger people, but they wouldn't have it wouldn't have the same impact.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: So um I really want people a bit older to to get in and and get involved, but they can find a bit more information about that at my Instagram.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: It will be up on my website later on this year.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the I have got a newsletter on my website, which is a really good thing to jump on to, um, some free resources.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a uh some big stuff coming later on in 2023 with some website information, some worksheets, some awesome stuff coming through there, some little programs you can do online by yourself at any time.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that's coming later on this year.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you jump onto my website and sign for the newsletter, you'll be well informed when that's kicking off.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Benjamin.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know before we close out, I know you're based down on the Mornington Peninsula, and for those of you who aren't in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, that's um about an hour-ish from Melbourne.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: But um, do you also work online?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: I do, yeah.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm based in Frankston, um, Frankston, Victoria.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely quest building, got a great, great office there, um, opposite the Maccas, so it's really easy to find on the highway.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's about a two-minute walk to the beach, so it's perfect.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I do also work online, so people I can work with people anywhere.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for your time.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Been awesome to chat.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: I will drop all the links to I'll drop links to all the stuff that Benjamin's shared with us in the show notes, including Elton John's I'm Still Standing.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um thanks for thanks for chatting, Benjamin.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful, thanks for having me.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime, come back again.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've got more to discuss.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: We do.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.