Latest / B Shifter / Thermal Imaging Cameras for Size-up (Part 1)

Transcript

Thermal Imaging Cameras for Size-up (Part 1) · B Shifter

• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to the B Shifter podcast.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: John Vance here, along with Josh Bloom, john Edichico and Grant Light.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Today we are talking about thermal imaging and its uses on the fire ground, especially when it comes to the IC both IC1 and IC2, and decision making and how it's probably a tool that is not used all the time appropriately or people haven't simply trained on it.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: If you're one of those folks you're thinking maybe you have not trained to your fullest potential on using this very valuable tool on the fire ground, stick around on the podcast because we're going to talk a lot about it.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: If you're watching us on YouTube or on one of the social media channels, we'll have a lot of visual today as well, so we'll be showing you some examples.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: If you're just listening to us on audio, there's a link to see all the visuals in the show notes.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: First of all, I just want to introduce everybody.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Josh Bloom is our program manager.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: How are you doing today, josh?
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: I'm doing very good.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Happy to be on here Was on the road last week in Worcester with those guys.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: That was fantastic, always good catching up with organizations like that as well as all the other organizations, and talking everything fire with tactics and command, and hearing where they're at and what they've done and so on.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: So, uh, just like anytime I'm on the road this week it's Monday, so it's catch up day.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: And uh also, here is grant light.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Grant light you may have uh seen or heard on some of our other podcasts.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: He's a lead instructor for blue card.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Retired Lieutenant from the Cincinnati Fire Department where he rode the rescue.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: He's still out there involved in USAR and training and, of course, blue Card and safety, and Grant will be teaching a class I think you're on a couple of classes actually at the 2025 Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: What classes are you doing this year, grant?
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited to be back at the conference.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: Last year was unbelievable.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: It was a great event.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: A lot of networking, a lot of meetings from all over the country, so it was great.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: This year we're going to kind of do a review of the hazmat module that's out there for fire departments to use to do their hazmat training, their annual hazmat training for their company officers and all their firemen.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: And then we're also going to kind of review the tech rescue series that we're working on getting online for, like the first in company officer at a tech rescue event.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: You know a lot of the people out there company officers are not tech rescue people, so it's easy to show up at something like that and be overwhelmed.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: So we're going to try to bring them up to speed, not make them, you know, whiz bang wizards, but understand what's going to happen and what should happen at most of the normal for lack of a better term tech rescue events, trench, confined space things like that, where there are a lot of rules and regulations and things that can hurt them or their company, and just so they understand the ways to avoid that and get the show rolling at the front end so that, as their team rolls in or another team rolls in that is qualified at that level, they're able to kind of set it up for them.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Excellent.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I look forward to that class.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I know whenever I sit through anything that Grant is doing, I learn a lot from him, so I'm looking forward to that at the Hazard Zone Conference.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: And then our other guest today is John Edichico.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: John has the most butchered name in the blue card cadre, I think saying that right.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Do I say your name correctly?
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: You say it perfect, all right, good, uh, because it's funny.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Somebody will say like eddie chicchio or uh edicio, and it's like who are you talking about?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: john edichico, yeah who would do that.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: uh, john is uh also lead with the safety program, so if you you're out getting the safety prop delivered to you, you might've met John, and he's the one who does the train, the trainer for that.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: He's also an assistant chief of the Lachlan Fire Department in Ohio and, john, you were at the conference this year too.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: What are you bringing us?
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so this year we're doing a pre-conference with the safety program, so we're going to do the full eight hour presentation on day one and then do some live demonstrations with the prop and then students get the opportunity to purchase that and get delivered straight to their fire department from there.
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: I'll be doing the demos again out of the park a lot.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: I'll be doing the demos again out in the parking lot, I believe one time during the two-day conference and I'll be doing a thermal imaging class focused on what we're going to be talking about today.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: So I'm looking forward to it.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: It's awesome.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: I had a really great crowd last year and uh trying to expand those people and getting those those firefighters and company officers and decision makers uh a little bit more in tune to thermal imaging.
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: So it's, it's something that we all need nice john.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Hey, john, and as always, grant light never gives himself credit, so he might have forgot, actually, what he's doing.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: He's got the mayday, but he's got the May Day workshop.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right and that's filling up.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: So last year we ended up with 100 people or so in that May Day workshop and this one's filling up this year.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: So if you missed it and you want to catch the May Day workshop, the conference is a perfect opportunity to do that.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I think Grant has his name attached to more classes than any of the instructors this year.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: I thought that he had the most, it seemed like.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So he's going to be a busy guy.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: He's the smartest.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, back to safety and what John Ed Chico will be doing.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: This is the first time that this class has been offered the train-the-trainer without the prop.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Or one of the few times?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: And it makes it a very cost-effective way of getting this training.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that?
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: And then, if someone decides to get the prop after they go to the class, how does that work?
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: So you know, we I think it actually came up two years ago when John and when they were doing the demos at the conference and people you know saw the value in just that part of it.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, many organizations bought the prop and then we went on site and did the training, you know, there with them the full two days.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: So, uh, we thought we would expand it this year, since we do the pre-commerce workshops anyway.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: So the the class that they're going to deliver over two days is the exact same size up fire extinguishment tactics class that they would deliver if you bought a prop and they were doing delivering at your organization.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: So you'll get the two full days classroom one day, all the burns the second day and all of the everybody who goes through that will leave with the full curriculum package.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So they'll get the full curriculum as far as the PowerPoints, instructor guides and all the supporting material for it, and then they'll be able to buy the prop direct from us, if they chose to, after they've gone through this two-day training, at a much reduced price.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: So basically, they're getting all of the training on the prop and all of that and then we're just delivering the prop to their organization, shipping it to them, and we're not coming on site at their fire department and delivering it.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: So on the back end of it, it's just it's saving.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: It's the savings is not sending two instructors for two days to your fire department to do that training.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: So here we're just capturing more fire department instructors coming to get the training at one time and then we'll just deliver the prop to them on the back end.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: So it's about a 40% cost savings.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: When you look at it, normally $9,500, and I think it's don't quote me on this I think it's $6,500-ish if you buy the prop after the conference.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: So that's just just another avenue.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And, um, even if you don't buy the prop, it's still two, you know great full days of training and you still get all that classroom curriculum which, uh, it's it's without question could be broken into 40 hours of training.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's just so much in there.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: That has been everything from size up to application of TIC, use of the eight functions of command, to capabilities of personal protective equipment, to fires, impact on buildings, to flow path and fire.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's a lot.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Well, we want folks to join us this year.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Go to bshiftercom, click on the 2025 Hazard Zone Conference.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: It has all the information there on the classes, the instructors, both the pre-conference, which John and Grant are a part of, along with Josh.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Josh, too, is going to be at the May Day Workshop this year, in addition to every other, probably, too, because Josh is in charge of the with Josh.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Josh, too, is going to be at the Mayday Workshop this year, in addition to every other, probably, too, because Josh is in charge of the whole thing.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And get signed up now, because there are still hotel blocks left, but those go fast.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Once they're gone, they're gone, and we want you to be able to get that discounted rate.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: So go to bshiftercom and go to the section marked 2025 Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that safety pre-conference train-the-trainer.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I think there's just eight seats left in there and we keep that class limited.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: So we will not expand that class because we have to have that one-on-one hands know approach for everybody to get the most value out of it.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: So All right.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Well, today the topic is thermal imaging cameras, and these guys are certainly experts in the use of them and I think so often in the fire service we don't do enough training on this very valuable tool that is writing on our apparatus and that I see people have dangling from their turnout gear a lot of times, but they're just simply not using it.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: So let's get in today talking about using it for size up decision making and really where we start off with the moment that we take it out of the charger and we're walking up to the scene and starting to observe and process what we have.
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: Step one take it out of the charger, out of the truck 100%.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: It does you no good inside the apparatus.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: We learned about that with Project Mayday.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: We learned about that with Project Mayday.
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: 38% of the time LODDs the tick was on the truck, so we need to get it off the truck and start using it in training.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: We bring it up all the time when we go out and do our safety program.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: How many times do we train with a Halligan bar?
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: All the dang time?
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: If we don't get used to training with the thermal imager, you're not going to be any good with it.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Isn't that one of the reasons why people don't take it?
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Because of the training piece, they don't see the value.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I think people don't see the value in it or they don't know what its real capabilities are, or what it really does, or the benefits that it'll that it will have for them.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: They, the only time they get to use it, like you said, the fire department throws it on the truck and then, uh, people are like, well, I'm not taking that, it's, it's, you know, it used's no longer could be an excuse because they're, you know they're, uh, they're they're much lighter in capability right?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not an issue.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: But the the training piece of they just throw it on there and the only thing people know is to turn it on and off.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, just here, locally I think we've put 400 or so people in this Cincinnati region through that that, uh, you know tech training, that that we're doing here through the working group, and how many people that show up to that and have no idea except for I turn.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: This is how I turned on, so I turned off.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Well, do you know that it has?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: You know their function or capability?
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: And then you ask them.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I think, out of I think not one person actually that you've ever asked in any class I've ever been at said that they've ever had any formal tick training, right, john?
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: It's very few, very few people raise their hands when we ask that question.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: I think the letdown that people get is it's hard yet they have a good imagination to set up a good tick training in the firehouse, right?
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: So all they do is go look at the stove, then they go and they have somebody lay in the bunk room and tick training in the firehouse, right?
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: So all they do is go look at the stove, then they go and they have somebody lay in the bunk room and they look in the bunk room and they go.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Okay, I guess I got it, because that's all the training they get.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the failure is that they don't realize all the nuances that that thermal imager brings to the table and also that things aren't going to be as they assume they are when they just do their training in the firehouse.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Which is a big thing we stress when we do our tick trainings with the working group is that you know nothing.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: Nothing's guaranteed.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: You know, you, you, you go into your bunk room and we always joke that you know, you look at the guy laying on the bunk room floor or sitting in the bunk, whatever we tell somebody, go in there and hide and we'll come find you, and that's tick training.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Is that?
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: You know every bunk room in the United States of America is about 40 degrees.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know why, but they are.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: So the person laying in there stands out like a big neon sign, right A big giant white blob, and we joke a lot about the white blob.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: The problem is that in a real incident you're not going to be the white blob.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: You know you're not going to be.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: You're not going to have a 40 degree background or you know 72 degree background and a 98 degree.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: You Right, you're going to get radiated with the heat, just like everything else in the building.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: So at some point you, you or a human or the victim is going to level out as the same temperature as everything else in the room.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And so then all of a sudden, they don't stand out like they do in that training, and unless you've been trained to really, really look at the nuances and the gray scale of that camera, you're going to miss what you're looking for.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: One thing I meant to mention up top too, is that this is just going to scratch the surface today.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: There is so much material that we have to go through, so, in order to keep this digestible this, there'll probably be several parts to this conversation, because my head's spinning already from what you guys are talking about.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So so, just so everyone knows, listening there, there will be further conversations on this.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Uh, we're not going to be able to get to all of it today.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, josh.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Just from what Grant said right, it's the training in context thing.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: We have to make it as realistic as we can possibly make it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: And then we just we did that training on the training scars right.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: And I think, john, you said it got several thousand views already because everybody has lived through that Well, that training in the bunk room, training in the firehouse, seeing something that's not real.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I picked the camera up and I look at John, who's driving the truck today, and it's like it's not going to look like that, but that's what that's, that slide that I got Right and that's what I think the value is of it.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: So that's a training scar thing which I think leads to people, their their lack of understanding of using the equipment and what it does for us and capability drives that, that we don't pick it up.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And then then we get in.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: You know, we get into a hurry, right, and it's like, well, there's no value in that.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, it comes back to the first five minutes, looks like the next five hours.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Well, if I can pick up something in that first five minutes, it's going to save me, probably on the on the backend also.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: So save me, probably on the back end also.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go to some slides here.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: If you're along with us on YouTube or on social media, you'll see them.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: If not, you can tune into our YouTube channel and check it out.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So first of all, let's talk about some of the first images that we're seeing, so we can break it down to the listener what it is that we're looking at and what are we looking for with the thermal imager.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: So, just real quick, before those guys jump in and explain some of this, all of these images are from, you know, the series of tech training that we continue to do with the working group.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: So all these trainings are taking place at Coleraine Township Fire Department here in Hamilton County, ohio and they uh, they support, you know, this region's you know training.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: If it wasn't for them, we probably wouldn't be doing what we were doing with, with a whole lot of this Um.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: So we continue to get valuable images and curriculum and material you know developed you know, from from that site.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So I just wanted to, like, put that out there and give a little credit to to where some of this stuff came from.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: And then, obviously, the work that the working group and Grant and John put into all of this training that takes place, as well as Eric's Phillips engagement with it and others that continue to engage to try to improve themselves but improve our industry and and explain to all of those people what we don't know, what we don't know.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, we can jump to these pictures.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll jump on that with Josh, the group that we have a bunch of uh, real uh stewards of of this craft.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: Uh, they, we, we all learn together.
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: Uh, you know we're doing these classes and continuously having conversation after conversation about this stuff.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: But to describe these images.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: So the picture on the left is our GoPro, our naked eye, looking at the burn room.
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: So if you look at that picture, it doesn't look like much is happening.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: There's not a whole lot of smoke.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: You see a little soot staining, but that's old.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: Obviously we're in a burn building.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: So there there's some sit staining on the exterior of this, this structure, but there's nothing really going on.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: And then when we we use the thermal imager, we want to go systematically around this building to identify where this heat is potentially coming from and where they're going to, and what kind of decisions am I going to make based on what I see and can interpret on that screen.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: So we're using a Seek FirePro camera on this.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: So it has a few different modes on it.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: So the first picture in the middle there looking at the thermal imager in the basic mode.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: So it's going to look at things in a grayscale until it gets to about 302 degrees.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Once we see colors, it's above that threshold and then we get into yellows, oranges and reds, but we're not seeing a whole lot of color.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: But we're not seeing a whole lot of color.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: So the building is kind of holding onto that heat a little bit through the insulation, through the building products themselves.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: So drywall is holding it back a little bit.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: So we're not seeing the high heat, but we are seeing some whites and we can take a look at that foundation as well.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: So we're really kind of trying to observe from the foundation all the way to the attic space.
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: Uh, especially here in in cincinnati area and all over the country there's, you know, places that have basements.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: You know we want to evaluate what's going on below us to really make good decisions.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: So we're seeing a little bit of heat coming around that that window, a little bit of heat coming around that window in the grayscale.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: Now, when we flip over to the survey mode, what that does is it increases our ability to see heat at a lower temperature.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: So if you look at the scale on the right hand picture, it's got a blue hue, it's got a little S on the bottom left hand corner and it also drops the temperature from 300 degrees down to 150 degrees where we're going to start seeing color.
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: This is especially essential.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: If you have this ability to do this, no matter what brand you're using.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: If you have the ability to lower that temperature, especially in your 360s, it's going to be able to see that colorization that's going to grab our eyes a little bit earlier than the grayscale, because if I'm looking at that center picture, is that the sun radiating off the side of the building or is that actual heat that I'm seeing?
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: That's from the fire inside the building.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: When I switch over to survey mode, I can now differentiate a little bit clearer.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: what is what, John?
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Are all cameras created equal?
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, is the option?
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: How do you get into survey mode?
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Are they all programmed different, and is there options for the end users to program them in kind of a custom configuration?
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, all of the above.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: So with the Seek camera, depending on the version or the model that you get, it's depending if you're going to get survey mode.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: They put it in the small camera, but the NFPA compliant camera, in the beginning they didn't put it in.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: So it just depends, depends on what you got and it really you know, it's fairly simple to get into and get out of.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: It's a click of a couple of buttons to get into that survey mode and get back into firefighting mode, where I want to go back inside and do the get the job done inside.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: I need to go back into firefighting mode because that's essential that I do that, because I'm just going to get saturated with colors.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: But it all depends on the brand you have and how it operates.
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: There is a standard uh, the 1801.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: Fpa 1801 is the standard of interoperability, but it didn't really do anything as far as how to get to those uh, those different modes inside your camera.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I kind of look at it like it's kind of like the, it's kind of like the SCBA, john, like the MSA pass device.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: There's buttons that do certain things right and that you can see.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: You know how much pressure do I have?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Well, how much based on my breathing rate, how much air do I have, and all of that.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, msa is different than Scott, different than every other manufacturer.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: So that just comes back to the training thing, right, and I know we're just trying to drive the bus on that as far as you have to get it out you have to train on your equipment Absolutely.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: If you have a new, if you get a new thermal imager and you're used to the old, one button on off and that's it.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of options built in there that you can and you don't have to dive deep.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: They make it easy to get to because they know you got your big fire gloves on and all that kind of stuff.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: But you do have to know how to do it.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: You have to know how to find those different modes.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: If you look at the two thermal imaging pictures up there, you can see on the right-hand side that you can see where the color differences come in.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: So when they're the far right with the blue tint survey mode, you can see like the yellow you see around the window is going to be around 200 degrees.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: So that's, you know, telling you that's probably not just sun reflecting off of that zone, right?
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: It gives you an idea what that temperature is, whereas the yellow in the center picture is more like 400 degrees, right?
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: So you can see how that survey mode drops those colors down and makes it easy to pick things out.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: But you got to know where to look to know what the information is telling you.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Moving on now to some other examples here.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: What are we seeing here in these pictures?
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: Go ahead, John.
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: So again, going left to right, not a whole lot going on.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: In the left picture we're looking at a window, obviously all of our pallets in front of it.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: And there's not a whole lot going on.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: So what nothing showing means?
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: Is there nothing going on, right?
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: The study out of Chicago that it went vent limited.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: And then, as soon as the door gets open, what happens to the fire?
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: There's still heat and there's still energy inside of that building, um, but it's just not flowing with heat.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: And, uh, outside of the structure with smoke, um, but when we look at the thermal imager now, we're seeing a little bit more energy being produced outside those windows.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: So both in the basic mode and in the survey mode, there's a lot more energy than just the sun shining on that window.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: So how close is that fire to where we're looking?
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: I, I'd venture to say pretty close.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Um, obviously I know the building, but that the way that heat is starting to grow and we're getting temperatures closer to 300 degrees on that survey mode, um, at the top of the window, survey mode at the top of the window Well, what happens when we open that door or open that window?
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: You know, and this is all based on, we want to make the decisions of where we're going to place our hand lines to make us better, get to the fire quicker and make this you know, firefight an unfair advantage in our position.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing is we have to understand the limitations that we have with the naked eye and what we can see visually On the outside of the building, which I know people don't talk as much about with a thermal imaging camera on the outside of the building, which I know people don't talk as much about what size up with a thermal imaging camera on the outside of the building as they do.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I crossed the threshold.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: There's smoke in there.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So now I want to use this camera because I can't see and it's like well, just these, this, just these first two slides show you the value of taking the camera off the truck and using it Right.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: So I want to make sure that we tie this back to the size up factor of that there's a working fire inside that building.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: It's not producing that without a fire being inside the building.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So that's a factor.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: And then it helps us with where is the fire now and it can also help us with wherever the fire isn't now is maybe where the fire is going to go to.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: So you know it's not all inclusive.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: It's not telling us.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: You know it's.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: It's not telling us a story about.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: This is exactly where I am, but it's another piece of of the whole size up piece of evaluating the critical fire ground factors, understanding building construction.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: What's this building made of?
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Where's the fire going?
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: What is the camera telling me?
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: So, so you have to tie all of those pieces together so that, uh, the standard conditions, if you will, that we use in blue card, it helps us, so that then we can make an even better uh incident action plan to take standard action, so that we end up with that standard outcome.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: If I know where the fire's at when I pull up and it's on the outside, when there's flames visible through my entire career, that's like, okay, well, I feel a whole lot more comfortable about that.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: But when you pull up and it's that picture on the left, but you cross the threshold, it's like smoke to the floor and can't see nothing.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: It's like, hmm, I hope we find it before it finds us.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Well, this tool helps us do that.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: It before it finds us.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Well, this tool helps us do that.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: And it all starts on the outside of the vehicle as, as, as John said, the nothing showing being thing means absolutely nothing.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: When we pick that camera up and look, it's like that those pictures were all taken at the exact same time with a naked, naked eye camera, a camera and basic mode and a camera and survey mode.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: So you have to use the tools to its fullest capability, with the biggest tool, as Grant Light would always say, being your brain.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: Imagine the confidence you have of you doing your 360, and you see that on the right-hand slide.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: And then you come around to the front with your crew who've laid a hose line to the front door and you know exactly where in the building you're going Right.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: You know you're going right.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: You know you're going to go in and it's in and to the right.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: I know this burn building.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: So if you went in the A side you'd be going in and to the right and you know exactly the fires right there.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: At least I know there is fire there and maybe other places in the building, but it's there and that really brings that confidence level up when you're getting with your crew and getting ready to go in.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: That you feel confident, you know where you're going and what you're doing.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Just like you said, if it's blowing out the window, it's a piece of cake.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: I know exactly where I'm going, what I'm doing.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Now it's hidden to the naked eye.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: So one thing when you look at these pictures, just imagine the confidence you have.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: If you're doing a 360 and you see the picture on the right with your thermal imaging camera, the confidence you have is you come back around to the A side of the building and say, hey, I know exactly where this is right.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: You tell your company members, your firefighters if you're the officer, I know exactly where this is, we're going in.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: I know this building.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: So I know from the front, from the A side, that you're going to go in and go to the right to get to this space and it's you know.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: As Josh said, you know when you have a working fire and flame coming out the windows.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: It's easy, you know exactly where it is like.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: We got this the not knowing when you look at the picture on the left with just your naked eye and that's all you see.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: When you circle the building, then there's this big giant question mark as you cross the threshold.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: I think I think something like this just builds everybody's confidence right.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: You get it, you go into survey mode, you see that picture on the right and you know pretty much where the fire is, or at least the general area inside that building where the fire is, and you can very confidently make your move to get there and put that fire out.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: I think that is a huge thing.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: That's never really discussed is just the confidence that you get out of knowing information right, having data, sticking it in your big brain and acting upon it.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: We can back up a little bit when we're looking at the screen, because this is a unknown from a lot of people.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: When I ask this question, people don't really understand it all the time.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: So if you could explain it, when we look at the temperature, what is the temperature reading versus the colors that we're seeing and the scale that we see?
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: So how do those three things converge together?
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: And really, what should we be looking at?
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: So we should not be looking at that temperature spot temperature in the middle of that screen.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: It is dead wrong.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: It's very inaccurate.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, in that interoperability standard it was taken out of the basic mode because firefighters were getting caught looking at that and being like it's only 115 degrees.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: Well, they failed to recognize the oranges and reds that were above their head.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: That were 8, 9, 1,000 degrees.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: So we should be looking at and understanding where our cameras start colorizing, because if you have a FLIR camera, there's a mode inside of that FLIR camera that starts colorizing at 500 degrees rather than 300 degrees.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: So my cameras I have them set to going, you know start colorizing at 300 degrees.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: If I see yellows, oranges or reds and I have a hand line, we're putting water into that space and we're becoming the magic eraser, right, we're erasing colors.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: Um, so that's where, really, where we need to start is we need to.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: If we're seeing colors in our screen, we need to do something about it.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: The other side of things is we need to start living in the world of grays.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: Grant said it earlier.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: We don't, you know, typically see a bright white grant light sitting on a bed in a fire.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: They're going to be somewhere in the shades of gray.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: We call them blobs, we laugh about it, but everybody is a shape.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: It's a blobby shape.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: So we need to understand what we're looking for.
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: When we see straight lines, that's probably human made, not a human.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: So we need to look for those odd shaped things, whether it's a bunch of pillows or a person.
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: It's something to investigate and put our hands on.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: So in the beginning we need to start.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: You know, how does this thing turn on, how do we look at it, what does the colors mean to us?
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: And that specific camera that we purchased, how to get to different modes if we have the availability, you know, and we need to go down that path first and then we need to.
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: You know, and that's what we do with our classes.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: We talk about that in the front end to get them just starting to understand what capabilities we have with these things.
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: From there.
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: Then we go in, you know, do the, you know the safety, doll prop, dollhouse prop.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: We do a big 360 with them and then we take them inside and once they come out of that, they've got about four hours of just looking at the thermal imaging and understanding what they're seeing on their camera and what does their partner see on their camera versus and.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: And we've gotten a lot of good feedback of people saying you know, we made decisions of what we're going to buy because we went to that class.
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: So there's there's so much to this JV that we could talk for hours, days.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: So one nice thing is that, uh, is that taking the training into the crawl, walk, run mode, right, where we talk about it, we go over it, we explain a lot of things.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: We don't go way in depth on how a thermal imager really works.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, do we need to?
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know how it works.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know how my phone works, but I know I can call you, know the other side of the planet on it, right, I know how to use it.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: I don't really know how.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: I need to know how it works, and so we that just boggles that, just the workings on the inside, I don't know.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's really that important.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: What you need to know is what you can, the information you can glean from the screen, which is exactly it.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: The camera doesn't tell you anything, and we really stress that.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: The camera just shows you a picture.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: The only way you could get anything from that picture is what you get with your brain by looking at it and determining what it's showing you.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Right, it doesn't have a little arrow that comes up and says human here, this there.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: It does, in a way, because of colors, show you where high heat is, so generally fire, but it doesn't show you.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: It doesn't tell you anything, it just shows you a picture on a screen.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: I think the other thing that we really stress to people is that when you're training with it, you're generally in a firehouse, like we said in the beginning, doing that kind of stuff, and when you get in a real incident, all of a sudden you take away some things and you add some things.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: If you're a person that wears glasses or needs their arm to get longer and longer and longer to read words on a piece of paper which most of us do as we age then all of a sudden things are going to be out of focus for you, right, if you don't have the insert in your SCBA face piece.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: So first off, we added a SCBA face piece, whatever brand it is.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: We now have that on when we're going to use that camera in real life.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Then we add this weird thing that's found at most fires, called smoke, in between our SCBA face piece and the screen on the camera, and as that smoke gets thicker and denser and more prevalent, all of a sudden, just to see the screen on the camera, you got to get it closer, which in turn then makes a lot of things out of focus.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: So everything is kind of working against you when you really really need it and you have to be able to work through that.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: But you have to be able to know that's going to happen.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: If you don't understand that all those things are happening against you, then you're going to just be like this thing is junk, I can't see nothing on it.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you put on a face piece, you added smoke and you added up.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: You had to pull that camera closer the denser that smoke gets.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: So you have to be able to work through those problems and not work through them in the heat of battle.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: Work through them in a training scenario where you, where you understand now how those things are going.
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: I think one of the big things when we're training people is that we take them in a space and we say you have no zero responsibility for anything going on in here.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: You don't have to worry about the fire, you don't have to worry about people, you don't have to worry about anything other than you figuring out what you can glean from the screen on that camera.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: So you just are looking at the camera and you're seeing, oh, my people are like, oh, I never noticed this before and we point stuff out because they're there.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: They just don't have time to to pull it out Right.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: And in a real fire you don't have time to all of a sudden have this momentous like aha moment.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: But in a training fire where you have no responsibility other than to use that camera and figure out what it's trying to show you, that's where those moments happen, and then they carry those on into their real life experiences when they use them in a real fire.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I just want to clarify real quick, so that nobody gets confused on it, that the training they're talking about there is like where you go next at your fire department after you've maybe done the safety training.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: So we do not do interior live fire training during the safety size of fire extinguishment tactics blue card training.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: So we do not do interior live fire training during the safety size of fire extinguishment tactics blue card training.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: So I just want to make sure that everybody understands that piece of it that we're we're.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: We're talking about the training that is done here locally after everybody's already gone through, uh, the two day size of fire extinguishment tactics training, then taking it to the next scale thing, right, so that crawl, walk, run.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: So we're, we're almost at a when we're at the burn building, we're at a trot before they go into the run.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: So Really the training we should be doing post going to the safety classes, getting into your class, a burn facility and getting the tick out and continuing it on right?
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, absolutely.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and nothing we're doing is secret or whiz-bang-a-tree or super fancy.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, if somebody had a question, I'm sure you could email one of us and we would explain what we do and how we do it.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: We want people to do training.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: We want people to get good at the tools that their fire department very expensive tools that their fire department provides to them and that can save their life and save a civilian's life and save another fireman's life.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: So if you have questions about what we're doing, email one of us and we will gladly kind of lay out what we do.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: It is like I said, it is not super high-end stuff.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: It's just giving somebody a chance to really use a thermal imager in a fire, with no responsibility other than looking at that thermal imager and having somebody else point out like things that they may be seeing, that they didn't understand what they were.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: So on this slide we're looking at a band door.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Right now We've changed slides.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: What are we seeing here?
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: And really, what should we be thinking about before we open that door?
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: We should be considering flow path at all times, so connecting the dots.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: So if we got the whole picture of the 360 that we were at this building, we would see some heat movement throughout the building.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: So that tells us a couple of different things about the building, right?
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: So, obviously, where's the majority of the heat?
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: Where is it going to?
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: And what type of floor plan do we have?
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: Do we have an open or closed kind of floor plan?
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: You know, I live in a house that's built in 1902, you know, and back then every room, including the kitchen, has a door right.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: So I have a pretty closed floor plan.
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: What did they do?
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: Probably in the seventies or eighties, every door came off the hinges.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: And now I have an open floor plan to allow whatever to go around the entire house.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: So you know, if this room was isolated, we wouldn't see any heat energy moving throughout that space.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: So if I came around to you know, and what Grant was talking about with that confidence, I come around to my nozzle and go, hey, that's going to light off as soon as we open this door, you best be ready to start flowing water.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: And if I have a new firefighter on that nozzle, how much confidence do they have in me as their company officer to make decisions?
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: They're probably happy, right, they got this guy.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: He's squared away.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: He knows, oh, it's going to light off.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: We better start flowing some water.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: So if I open that door, I should be expecting some heat.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: Even in the thermal engine basic mode.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: I've got some yellows behind that door.
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: What happens when that is oranges and reds and it's just smoke?
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: Right, it's just smoke.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: Well, we should be flowing into smoke.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: You know cooling the environment for us and them, right.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: You know providing getting water towards the target as much as possible.
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: So if I'm looking at this picture, I'm telling my nose.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: When we're opening this door, we're flowing water and we probably are flowing water on the door prior to even opening it and starting the cooling process as soon as we possibly can.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: So it's pretty obvious from looking at this that we've got high heat in this area and this is in survey mode and we're still in the 300, so probably going to be going up from there, Right.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: So, as we, as we, as as John said, um, as we open that door, we know things are going to become we got to have a lot of smoke coming out toward us, Right.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Um that that that heat at the ceiling level, especially if it's, if it's that hot on the outside, means it's gone through the drywall in the building, gone through the insulation that's in the building, gone through the siding that's on the outside of the house.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: This camera isn't seeing through all that.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: The camera's just picking this heat up on the exterior of the building.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: There's that much heat on the exterior of the building, so that's a pretty good sign that there's stuff going on inside there.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: So you got to keep that in mind.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: It's not looking through magically through that solid wall.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: That heat has come through the building to the outside and still showing 300 degrees and that's a lot in a house.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: That would be a whole lot on the outside of the building that has leaked out through all the insulation, all the stuff we do to protect it, protect our home from the heat going the other way, Right Coming in, or the heat we have inside at the wintertime from coming out.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: So that's saying a lot about the heat level on the inside of that structure.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: Let me just point out too that that uh spot temperature in the center of the is reading 76 degrees, and if we're just reading that that it's 76 degrees.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: And you couldn't touch that door right now.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: No, you could.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: You could touch it, but not for you're going to pay for it.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Better have a glove on.
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right, so that reference point.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: It's not a very good measurement, so we should take that out of our brain to look at that, that little measurement on the bottom right-hand corner, and that's why they took it out of the standard mode, right, because it was people into thinking something that wasn't true.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: So where, where is this fire going to be in the next two to three minutes?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Well, fire, I mean it's, it's, it's clearly at the top, so it's going to be looking for any breach that it can go.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: So, looking at that picture, it's going to be navigating, it seems, more up to the top and to the left, and in this case that door is actually fully closed, so it's a steel fire door that is totally closed and that's what we're seeing from the outside.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: So it appears that that is extending, you know, up and then, as, looking at this picture, and to the left.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: So in this case, that second floor, it's exposing that entire second floor to temperatures in the ceiling.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: At this case that were, you know, 700 to a thousand degrees, because the space above that door was like three feet.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: So the ceiling temperature is 1,000 degrees.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: So it's going to navigate and move up.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: And then, if you're talking about any other kind of like John's house 1902, if you've got balloon frame construction and it finds a void space, it's over construction and it finds a void space, it's over, I mean, I shouldn't say over, but it's going to be on every floor above that spot, right.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: So it's going to be looking to travel vertically.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: If it can't travel vertically, it starts traveling horizontally.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: So in this case, it's traveled horizontally as far as it can go and now it's looking to where am I going to go?
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Next path of least resistance.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: So here you know, we're showing some other information now with the slide that we have of this manned door.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: You guys have already talked about the heat and the color up on the eave roof line.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: The door was cracked open a little bit.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: We start to see more colors coming out.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: And then how can you tell air intake from looking through your camera?
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: What's a clue there?
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: So you're going to start seeing darker colors typically.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: So if you look at that, there's some white on the bottom there.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: There's also some dark colors moving through there, so it's really kind of hard to see, but your eye has to be trained to look for it.
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: You're going to see cooler air in a darker area towards the black of the gray scale moving across.
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: And one of our big things that we talk about is, you know, using the camera as a point shoot, process the information and then move on.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: Don't use the camera as a video camera and start moving it around.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: You know, like you do at grandma's hundredth birthday party.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: You know, and you're trying to capture everything.
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: It's just point shoot, process everything.
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: Look at the nuances.
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: You're going to pick them up on the bottom side of your camera, so you're going to try and look for those darker colors.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: So one thing, john, going back to some things that some people we've forgotten about, you know, if one, if we're standing in the energy with a camera, it's hard to see it, but if we're, if we can get ourselves out of it.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: So the lower we are into a cooler space, look into a place, looking from a place that has less energy movement to a place that has more energy movement, the better the camera is going to operate and the clearer and better the image will be.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: So that whole tunneling piece that we talk about, in the size of fire extinguishment tactics class, and it's been talked about, you know, in in fire books forever, that tunnel, if you will, that you'll hear some people, old guys, talk about.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: We used to dive into that smoke tunnel because it was where the fresh air was, that was going back to the seat of the fire.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: Well, when you use a camera and you get down lower and if you can see into that tunnel space at a vent point or anywhere in the building, you'll see smoke and energy should be moving towards you.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: But you can actually see where the oxygen intake is coming in and it's picking up and mixing with the fuel and it's going back in.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: So from that lower space you can see the smoke actually move away from you, or the convected energy, if you will, moving away from you.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: So if you're standing up looking at the outside, I can see something coming out.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: But if I can get to where that neutral plane is, where that smoke and fuel is mixing back, I can also see where it's going back in.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: So there's value in that because of that breadcrumb trail, if you will, of it's going to take you to the fire as quickly as possible.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: If you understand what you're looking at and that's one of those training things you are not going to take you to the fire as quickly as possible.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: If you understand what you're looking at, and that's one of those training things, you are not going to get in the firehouse, no matter what you have to get into a burn building and an IDLH environment, have the camera in your hand and be able to just focus on the camera, and there's a huge value in that.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: And there's a huge value in that?
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely it doesn't.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: You know, like I said, we do the classes that we're doing in Hamlin County, the work group.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: They're four hour classes, yet we have people, the students walk away.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: They have learned a lot.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, every single student says there's just so much I got out of this that I just never knew, and so it's not like you have to do three days of training, right?
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: I mean we do four hours and people have gotten a great grasp on what they need to look for on that camera.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Let's go to this next slide.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Here is a side of the building or a side of the training facility in basic mode than in survey mode.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: And what is this telling us about the fire size and extent location, when we start looking at the critical factors as we measure them with the thermal imager?
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: John, if you want to go to the next one.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's the same picture, but I think it's got there.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: You go, john, if you want to go to the next one.
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: I think it's the same picture, but I think it's got there you go.
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: So what we're looking at is the bulk of the main fire is on the left-hand picture.
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: You see it circled there on the first floor.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: You see it light up a little bit brighter and white Really hard to tell.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: But then when we look at the survey mode, what we're seeing is kind of that plane, that neutral plane, being created, and we see cooler air on the bottom side and it's starting to rise and go up that container.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: So if we're just looking for colors, we're fooling ourselves.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: We need to start looking for things in all kinds of the spectrum, right, the bright whites to the bright reds.
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: So in this case we're seeing things in a white color and we're a little bit further away from the building, but we're getting a pretty good picture that this fire is starting from the right and moving towards the left hand side of that screen.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: So, again, creating confidence in what we we want in our people.
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: You know, I know where the the bulk of the fire is and where it's going, and now I can make decisions on where I'm going to place my people.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: And then on the top, the second floor, it's a little bit of heat energy moving on that ceiling.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: There's not a whole lot going on below that.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: So do I possibly think that this is extended through interior walls?
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: Checking for extension, putting companies and making decisions?
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: As I see number one, where engine two is going to go and stretch a line, one's going to go to the bulk of the fire and before engine two gets above me I need to put that fire out and get them up there and check for that extension before it gets into the attic space and runs the building down to the ground.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, as we start to wind things down, we did mention that this would be a couple of episodes, so this time around we're really going to concentrate on the basic operations of the thermal imager and then some of the exterior size up that we can do.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: We'll come back and talk about interior size up and using it for interior decision making.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: So let's look at some real life pictures.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Right now we have an incident.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: What are we looking at here and what should we be looking for with this picture?
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: be looking for with this picture.
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: So this is a story and a half residential structure here in Cincinnati.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: So as I was walking around the Charlie side, I got a pretty good idea.
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: Like I got smoke coming out of a gable vent and not much heat on the fire mode, so you can see some heat energy coming out of that gable vent, see a little bit of white.
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: You can also look all the way sub level that we're evaluating and it's rather cool.
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: So I can look now at that one picture and identify a few different things.
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: Where's my heat energy coming from?
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: Do I have any heat energy going to be below me and where am I going to direct my crews going to be below me and where am I going to direct my crews?
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: So if I go to the next picture on survey mode one this one here it's the same picture, but now I'm in a survey mode which drops my temperature down to 150 degrees and now I'm seeing colorization at the very peak of the roof.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: So again, building confidence in decision-making, where am I going to deploy my people?
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: The majority of that heat was on that second floor, in that void space, and these are very common homes in this area.
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: We've got some knee walls and some void spaces up in that peak that I need to get them up there and I need to pull that ceiling down and get water on that immediately, otherwise it's going to get into another void space and create bigger problems.
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: So, looking at that, I'm kind of verifying what I'm seeing with the fire mode into survey mode.
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: And if I go to fire mode two, which would be that picture, yep, looking at that again, are we looking at the sun reflecting or is that actual heat?
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: Well, we got some smoke or heat energy coming out of that gable vent or heat energy coming out of that gable vent, but there's not a whole lot that I see that would lead me to believe, to to know where that fire is.
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: You know this is, you know mid-afternoon fire on a hot spring summer day, you know is, and the sun reflecting down, is that?
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: Is that going to mask something?
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: So, looking at survey mode two, does that tell me a different picture?
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: Does that paint exactly what I need to do?
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: I now need to verify what's going on on floor one, inside that attic space, inside that little bump out on the Charlie side.
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: So looking at all those things, I can make some really good, solid decisions as a company officer or, if I'm put in, charlie, as a sector division boss, about where I need to put those companies and make decisions based on what I see.
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: This is just another piece to the puzzle.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: I'm not going ever gonna get 100 of the information, but I'm trying to get as much as I possibly can to to make the decisions that I'm gonna make.
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: So I think these pictures do do a wonderful job of explaining exactly what we're gonna need to be looking at, guys.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: I I have a question just how?
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: How long?
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Because you said, don't use it like it's just your video camera or your phone, but how long do you let that process?
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Like what's a good amount of time to point and let it process what it's looking at before I can move on and continue sizing up other parts of the exterior personally, I think it comes down to training.
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: you know, a better trained guy, a guy that's into it, you know, is going to pick it up a little bit quicker than the guy that doesn't use his cameras as much, but, um, I would say probably no more than three to five seconds.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: And it's more like a.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: It's like a still.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: I like to tell people it's more like a still camera than it is a video and it's more like a still.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: I like to tell people it's more like a still camera than it is a video and it is not a video camera, so it's more like a still camera.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: So, literally, thinking about how long it would take if I was going to just hold my phone up and take a picture.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: it's capturing that snapshot and the kind of what grant was talking about, all those deal details of what camera you have and the refresh rate on your camera.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: It also matters, right.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: So it's that the best answer is what john said, like you have to go out and put that tool to work for you and and you know, quite frankly, we're the decision maker.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: It's, it's not giving us a diagnosis, it's, it's not the new life pack, you know 35, it's $75 million and you know.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: It tells you there's a whatever bundle block on the whatever, whatever, whatever.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: And next thing is it's going to tell you what to do.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: And it's like that's not the camera, it's just, it's a snapshot of energy.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: So, um, we have to use our brain still and think it.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: But it is another layer to help us with our decision-making, without a question, because it's filling that void of what we.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: It's filling the void of what we don't know, and the energy is what gets us right.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: So that's what we're looking for.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: We're looking for the energy and also looking at where, where, where is the energy not?
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: I think there's two forms of processing here, right, there's there's the processing of the camera making, taking the heat energy and making that picture.
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: And then there's the processing going on in your brain as to what that picture is telling you and what your actions should be because of it.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: And I think, as both John and Josh and John said, that second part, your brain part, is going to be faster if you've trained with this camera in these type of situations than if you don't.
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: Right, and I think that second part is the most important of all.
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: The processing is because that leads to the big decision-making.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: Right, if we look at this and it's pretty easy to look at this once you understand what it's showing you and say, huh, yeah, we need to get up in that attic space and, like John said, that little lugger bump out.
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: We need to work on that.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: We need to get to those two spaces and get water on there.
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: And what's that confidence level that you have now, when you've seen that picture and you understand what it's telling you, way up right, as opposed to, wow, the house is full of smoke.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: We're going to crawl around in here and just try to figure out where it is.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: We got a really, really good idea from that snapshot right there of where we're going and what we got to do.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and John mentioned, like the division boss, you're assigned to Charlie and you're the division back there.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: And I get back there and it looks like that.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Well, I hope it starts getting better.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Right, but on the flip, if I get back there and it doesn't look like that and I'm just seeing white, and now all of a sudden I start seeing that it's like, oh well, we're not, we're not making it right.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: So when we talk about that exterior size up, I see one and then, for the most part, really just all the other companies using their camera continuously to evaluate factors, and then the vision boss is using it in geographic areas.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: The tool is invaluable if we have a full understanding on its capabilities, limitations, as well as our capabilities and limitations.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: We have one more video to play here.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: This is the prop, the safety prop.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: How does what we've seen here on these actual scenes correlate to what we're going to learn from the prop?
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: And you guys narrate what we're looking at here yeah, so the the prop is really, uh, I guess part two.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: You know, we, we get in the classroom, we start talking about flow path and start talking about thermal imaging.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: We talk about search and rescue and and water mapping and all kinds of things.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: The prop is the next step.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: We go outside, we, we get this thing lit and we, we start moving around the prop and we start talking, um, and before we get into the building, um, because we've all been there, you know, you go inside of the building.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: We've all got SCBAs on.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: How hard is it to talk?
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: What did he say?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: I didn't hear him.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: Oh well, move on.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: So now we have an ability to have a conversation about what we're really seeing, and it's just like we're talking right now, a nice easy conversation about what's going on.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: So in this video we're looking at the safety prop with the center hallway attachment on the front, and if I'm looking at this and I'm reading this, I see some heat.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: The higher heat is going to probably catch my eye first.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: Right, that red.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: So I know the fire is in that room.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: Where is it going to?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: I can evaluate that hallway and I can see heat energy coming in and going out, coming in, going out, and that heat energy is starting to turn colors.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: Right, it's in the gray scale and then it's starting to get a little yellow in there.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: So what do I know about that?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: It's above 300 degrees, so it's probably going to light off at any moment.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: So if I'm in that environment, what should I be doing about that?
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: Well, what I said earlier we're the magic eraser.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: We have the hose line, put water in, start cooling that, the sphere, as much as we possibly can and as quickly as we can.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: So if we got around to the other side, the Charlie side, we would evaluate where is that heat energy moving anywhere else?
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: So this is a short little video, which is great, because now we're seeing some unidirectional, bidirectional flow paths happening.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: We're seeing some burping happening, some energy is being pulled in and then once it gets enough, it says I can't take it anymore and it starts coming out and then that comes with some heat and color.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: So we're seeing a whole lot of science happening inside that box.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: I think that's the neat part about the safety program is, every time we do it it's a little different.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: So we see a lot of needed environmental things happening.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so as you're looking at that video, that left space where we see the red, that vent is totally open into the fire room room.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Even with that large vent opening where the main fire is is not enough vent to support the fire with oxygen and it's not enough vent for the exhaust.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: So, you know, even going down that hallway that's, you know, 20 inches long away from where the fire is the fire still has enough energy that is trying to push out somewhere else.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Well, it's pushing out there and then every time it pushes out there, like they were describing, you get that burp.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: And when it burps out then it has that it starts sucking air back in.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: So that center center hallway piece is is a is a great tool for people to see.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: It's just like a center hallway.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: So that apartment's on fire and I open the door Now what's the center hallway look like?
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: And we see that center hallway turns into a blowtorch, which is something we talk about, right?
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: So it's like when you open that door to enter the center hallway and it's venting already into that hallway.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: We got to be ready to flow water into that space.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: So we have a whole bunch of organizations that use this tool as the kind of a pre-burn piece for, before they even go into their quarterly class, a fire building burns and drills, just so they can have a discussion of.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: We're not just coming down here to do the same fire that you do all the time where there's a fire in this room and you're going to go in there and put it out.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, pack your stuff up and go home.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: It adds another level, another level of, like John said, and your organization.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: If you have this tool, you can burn outside 10 or 15 minutes, have a discussion, leave it go.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: Now we're going to go right into our burn building and we're going to apply some of these things that we just trained on or talked about.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, much more to come on.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: You know part two, three, four, five and who knows how long this goes.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's been a great discussion.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: I learned a lot today, guys, and I appreciate you being here and we been a great discussion.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: I learned a lot today, guys, and I appreciate you being here and we will continue to discussion.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: I think the next time we get together on this topic which hopefully will be soon We'll talk about using the thermal imager on the inside and how we size up from the inside and how we communicate that and what we're looking at.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: So I really look forward to that discussion next time around at.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: So I really look forward to that discussion next time around.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: Are you guys good to hang out just for one more minute for Timeless Tactical Truth?
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: All right, timeless Tactical Truth from Alan Brunicini.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: The constant companion of complexity is chaos.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: You know it's funny.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: I've been searching all of Alan Brunicini's works lately for more quotes because we love to use them and he talks a lot about chaos and where it comes in for us to quell the chaos and make things so they're not so complex.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: And he did that with his teaching and I don't know you guys speak to.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: However you want to speak on this today, whether it's use of thermal imagers or other information tools that we have.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: But how can we take something, especially when we have complex information, make it not so complex and then take the chaos away?
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: Most likely, the simplest answer is the right one.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: Many times we try to build things up to way more than what they are and we take a step back and look at it.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: There's a really simple solution and if we enact that solution, the problem goes away.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: Put water on the fire.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: It's a pretty simple solution most of the time.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: We come there in a big truck carrying it all this stuff, hose to get it to where we need it, and then just put water on the fire and everything gets better yeah, I think, uh, think simple.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: Just what grant said it?
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: It it really is.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: Think simple.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 4: Work on the basics, right, the basics, what we train on every single day, or we should be training on every single day right, checking our rigs, making sure that we're in a right mindset, all that stuff, the simple things.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I think about, as this quote came up, for the love of the game I'm a huge baseball fan For the love of the game.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: Quiet the mechanism.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: The chaos of Yankee Stadium is we're going to pitch a perfect game or a no hitter?
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: Quiet the mechanism.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: Work on the basics.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: Throw the ball Catcher's mitt, ball to the mitt every single time, and that's what we should be striving for the ball to admit, every single time yeah, john, mine is like it always is we, uh, we let we let all of the other things get in the way of what we are really called there to do, and that that is to make it better.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: And when we arrive to the scene of an incident, at that very second, it should start getting better, and nothing really should stand in the way of us making good decisions and using the system to make it better, which just comes back to what Grant said when we put water on the fire, it makes it better.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Back to what Grant said when we put water on the fire, it makes it better.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: But when we want to do all these other things because that's what we believe or that's what somebody told us, and not focus on putting water on the fire, it, it, it gets worse.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: And we've all had that experience of why were we doing all that shit when we weren't getting water on the fire?
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: The first line stretch short, oh.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: The second line stretch short, oh, but we were doing all that shit when we weren't getting water on the fire.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: The first line stretched short, oh.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: The second line stretched short, oh, but we were doing all these other things and didn't support getting the first line on the fire.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: So, uh, yeah, keep, keep it.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Keep it simple, don't make it more than it is.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: You don't have to have the latest whiz, bang, super secret thing that some guy made up and told you that has never been to a fire before and wants to tell you that it's going to work.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, keep it simple, stupid, put water on the fire.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: The fastest way to do that is to know where the fire is, and you can do that by using a thermal imaging camera if it's not obvious.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: So man you brought me all the way around.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: I like that, that's great.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Any final thoughts today, guys, before we go?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: And you brought me all the way around.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I like that, that's great.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: That was awesome.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: Any final thoughts today guys?
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: before we go.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: Thank you, John.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having us.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I know you guys are busy, but we'll get our schedules together, We'll come back and we'll do part two and part three and we'll continue on this conversation because I'm sure it's never ending.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: But thank you so much for taking time today to be on the B Shifter podcast and we want to thank everyone for listening.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: We'll talk to you again real soon.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Thanks,