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Should You Still Talk To Your Ex And What If You Interviewed All Of Them? · The Love Lab Podcast: Sex | Love | Relationship

0:05
Kevin Anthony: Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, the place to
0:08
be for honest and real talk about relationships and sex.
0:12
Whether you're a man or woman, single or couple, this is the
0:15
show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony, and I am here to
0:18
help you have the relationship of your dreams and the best sex
0:22
of your life.
0:26
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is
0:29
episode 421, and it is titled "Should You Still Talk to Your
0:34
Ex? And What If You Interviewed All of Them, including the
0:40
one-night stands and everybody else? I hope today that what
0:46
we're going to do is bust some of the myths that surround your
0:50
exes. Hopefully, we can get you to see past relationships and
0:55
breakups a little bit differently. And along the way,
0:57
if we can entertain you with some really hilarious stories,
1:01
then I think we've done a good job today. If you're watching on
1:05
YouTube or Spotify, you can see that I have a guest who I will
1:09
introduce in a moment. She's going to tell us exactly what
1:13
she did and why, and what she learned from it, and everything
1:17
else. This is a subject. I mean, obviously, it's one that comes
1:21
up when you do coaching work, right?
1:23
Like, this is going to come up because so much of people's
1:26
trauma is wrapped up in their past relationships, right? So
1:29
you talk about past relationships a lot, but it's
1:33
also a subject that's kind of near and dear to my heart
1:36
because the way I have approached it throughout my life
1:38
is very different than the way most people have approached it,
1:42
and I'm sure we'll talk about this more as we go through the
1:46
show. But I, over the course of my life, have maintained contact
1:51
and friendships with basically everybody I've ever dated. I
1:55
mean, there were probably a couple that I went on a couple
1:57
of dates with here or there that I lost track of and don't even
2:00
remember, but all the major ones I have stayed connected with,
2:04
especially through the help of modern technology, and we
2:07
maintain friendships, and we comment on each other's life
2:10
events and stuff, and that's just not something that most
2:13
people can wrap their brains around. So we're going to dive
2:17
into how that's possible and why you maybe would want to try that
2:22
once we get going.
2:23
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3:21
Okay, my guest today is Miriam Katz, and she is a Los
3:26
Angeles-based performer, public speaking coach, and podcaster.
3:30
Her podcast, Ex Appeal, in which she interviews every person
3:34
she's ever been romantic with on any level, has been profiled in
3:37
the New York Post and has been heatedly discussed on The View;
3:41
I can only imagine what The View had to say about that. Welcome
3:46
to the show, Miriam.
3:48
Miriam Katz: Thank you so much. And first, I want to say, when
3:50
you were talking about still being friends with exes, you
3:54
sounded so calm. Maybe you generally sound calm, but there
3:57
was something. I always think that when you are calm about
3:59
something, it's right. So it's not that this is this wild thing
4:03
you do. It's just what you do. It's part of your belief system,
4:07
and it really works for you.
4:08
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, I think what it really means is there
4:11
still isn't an emotional trigger around those past relationships,
4:15
right? And some of them were ones that I broke off, and some
4:18
of them were ones where, you know, one or two of them. I was
4:21
like, I thought I was going to marry this woman, right? And she
4:24
broke it off, and it didn't, and it didn't work out. But it does
4:27
go to show that I don't hold resentment towards any of them.
4:31
Miriam Katz: And things can transform.
4:33
Kevin Anthony: Absolutely, they can. And, like, you know, now I
4:35
mean, most of them, you know, were pretty far in the past, so
4:39
we were younger at the time, but like now I watch them on social
4:43
media, and I watch them, you know, posting pictures of their
4:46
kids, and a lot of their kids are off going to college now and
4:50
stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm commenting. I'm like, oh,
4:52
congratulations! I'm like, this is amazing. So that is not how
4:57
most people do it.
4:58
Miriam Katz: Yeah.
4:59
Kevin Anthony: So. All right, I know we're both laughing. We
5:04
haven't even started yet. You have a show called Ex Appeal
5:07
where you literally have interviewed every person you've
5:10
ever been romantic with, and one of the things that's.....
5:11
Miriam Katz: That's in process. I've done 21. I'm in the middle
5:15
of a long list.
5:17
Kevin Anthony: Well, and people are like, oh my god, 21, and
5:19
there's still more to go. That's probably what they're thinking.
5:21
But you, you really were, like, thinking of every person you've
5:25
ever, like, gone on dates with, or, like, had sex with, or.....
5:29
Miriam Katz: I went on a single date, and we didn't kiss. I'm
5:32
not counting that, except for my first date in the fifth grade
5:35
because we weren't gonna kiss. I wasn't kissing yet, but anything
5:39
with some kind of romantic connection- any kiss, like you
5:42
said, a one-night stand, and then also years-long
5:45
relationships. Yeah, because all of it to me has some meaning,
5:49
and there's something to talk about in all those cases.
5:52
Honestly, somebody I went on one date with that didn't continue,
5:55
I probably also would have something to say to them, but it
5:58
has to have gone a teeny bit further than that.
6:00
Kevin Anthony: Yeah. Well, the reason why I mentioned that it
6:03
was just because, you know, people might be thinking, well,
6:06
that's a long list. Like, there are 20-something, and there's a
6:09
bunch more to go. But if the average person were to sit down
6:12
and think about every person they kissed at a party or went
6:16
on a couple of dates with that they don't consider to be
6:18
somebody they dated per se, but they did have some sort of
6:23
connection that went, you know, a little further than sitting
6:25
there and having dinner and can't, you know, like waiting to
6:28
get the hell out of there. So most people would probably
6:32
become the....
6:33
Miriam Katz: And especially if you didn't get married or got
6:37
married later or lived in a city in your 20s, then it you know
6:42
you just have weekends.
6:46
Kevin Anthony: Yes, that is true, especially if you lived in
6:49
a city environment and waited longer. I mean, that was true
6:51
for me. I didn't get married until I was 41; I think it was
6:57
41 or 42, somewhere around there. And we both were open for
7:02
parts of our lives, and that also ups the numbers. Yes, it
7:04
does. To have a committed relationship and then still be
7:07
out in the world. Absolutely. So, okay. So you've got this
7:11
list. You've interviewed 20-something of them already.
7:14
Where did the idea come from to say, you know what? I'm gonna go
7:18
back and just find as many of them as I can and interview
7:22
them.
7:23
Miriam Katz: It came from sadness. I felt like I hadn't
7:28
processed a lot of the relationships. I have been
7:31
friends like you with certain exes, but I felt the weight of
7:36
my past relationships and felt like I wanted to go back and
7:41
reconnect in order to be able to let go of it and have more brain
7:46
space and emotional space. So I had the idea to do it, and then
7:50
it actually did work. I do feel much lighter. So that's always
7:57
magical when an idea comes out of thin air, and then it
8:00
actually functions. So I felt this weight had the idea, felt
8:04
better even having the idea, and then yeah, it's been really
8:10
interesting and moving.
8:14
Kevin Anthony: Yeah. So basically, the answer to your
8:16
question is you were feeling that you had stuff that was
8:18
unresolved, and the idea you came up with was, well, what if
8:22
I just reached out to all of them?
8:24
Miriam Katz: And resolve it with them, and not just talk to my
8:27
friends about it or think about it in my head? There was a
8:29
certain level of processing that wasn't complete without the
8:33
other person. I think because, and this gets into the myths, I
8:37
think because people tend to simplify the ends of
8:42
relationships, or if it's over, you want to exaggerate what
8:46
happened and maybe put yourself first. And I think I actually
8:51
wanted to make it as complicated as it was, not have the
8:55
narrative oversimplified. I wanted to. It's like couples
9:00
therapy versus individual therapy: you have to deal with
9:04
the reality of the other person's experience, and also
9:09
you get to finally say things you've wanted to say or hear
9:11
things, hear answers to questions, and I also wanted to
9:15
look into the meaning behind my attraction to certain people and
9:19
ways in which it took me to another level, even situations
9:22
that were really difficult. So it was all-it's individual,
9:26
certainly for each situation. But the overall feeling was, I
9:30
want to have either an exit interview, a second breakup, a
9:35
funeral, whatever you want to call it, but a second, real
9:39
emotional, connected encounter, not to then get into it more,
9:44
but actually to really be able to say goodbye to it.
9:46
Kevin Anthony: Yeah,
9:47
Miriam Katz: Get over it more.
9:49
Kevin Anthony: So you know, it's interesting because one of the
9:50
things that popped into my mind as you were sharing, you know,
9:53
what inspired you to do that was, you know, 12-step programs,
9:56
right? When somebody goes through a 12-step program, one
9:59
of the Steps. I don't remember which one, but I know that one
10:02
of those,
10:02
Miriam Katz: Yeah, yeah.
10:03
Kevin Anthony: One of those steps is that you go out and you
10:05
make amends to all the people that you screwed up to because
10:09
of your addiction, right? And so that's really interesting
10:13
because, you know, in the world of coaching or psychology, we
10:17
will often tell people that you don't need to have the other
10:21
person present in order to work through your stuff, and that is
10:24
true. However, depending on whether or not the person is
10:28
open enough, it can sometimes be a lot easier to process it if
10:33
you can sit down with the other person. Now, that does generally
10:37
take two people who are emotionally mature enough to
10:41
actually have a conversation about this, and not just go
10:44
right back into old patterns and create more trauma and damage.
10:48
But if you have access to that, it actually could be a really
10:53
amazing clearing and healing process.
10:57
Miriam Katz: Yeah, and in some cases, I've definitely been
10:59
surprised by the level of someone's openness, and then in
11:04
one case, this particular season- season two is coming out
11:07
right now. There was somebody I spoke with who really wasn't
11:12
open to owning his part of what happened, and it was still
11:16
really helpful because I got to say it in front of him, and he
11:20
can do whatever processing he wants. He can hear it later; it
11:25
can affect him later or not. But I got to say what was hard for
11:29
me, and even that was really helpful. That's very different
11:32
than writing a letter. There is that, yeah. In therapy, there
11:36
have been plenty of letters I've written to family members or
11:38
whoever else, and it's just a very different thing when you
11:41
sit down and say it in front of a person, and that was actually
11:44
an unusual case. That particular episode 15, generally speaking,
11:49
it goes well. And even if there's, even if we remember
11:56
different things or remember things differently, it people
11:59
have been pretty open to talking about it. Sometimes it takes a
12:03
second to get someone to agree to go on, but once we're in the
12:07
room and talking, there are tears. Yeah, there are really
12:12
good memories. Feels really good.
12:15
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, I've obviously never had an ex reach
12:17
out and say, "Would you like to come on my show and talk about
12:20
our relationship from 25 years ago, but but if they did, I
12:24
would totally be down for it. I think it would actually be a lot
12:27
of fun.
12:29
Miriam Katz: And you would, and you and I are both podcast
12:31
hosts. But some people are absolutely not extroverts, or
12:36
their marital situation is something, or some people don't
12:41
want to talk about the past. That's really interesting. It
12:44
made me understand that I really like talking about the past, and
12:46
it feels really healthy not to be stuck in it, but actually to
12:49
get healthy in my present. And people, yeah, don't want to deal
12:52
with it.
12:53
Kevin Anthony: And that's part of the problem, right? So, like
12:55
at the very beginning of this episode, you said, "Well, you
12:58
were so calm when you were describing that, and I said,
13:01
"Yeah, that's because I don't have trauma or trigger or charge
13:03
around it anymore, right? And I think that the people who just
13:07
don't want to talk about it still have some drama or charge
13:10
around it, which is why they don't want to talk about it,
13:13
right?
13:13
Miriam Katz: Well, it goes in both directions, though, because
13:16
if they were able to, then they would have less charge, and you
13:19
know, it's circular.
13:21
Kevin Anthony: Well, yeah, it can be right because they have
13:23
the charge. They won't talk about it because they won't talk
13:25
about it. They still have to hold on to the charge and so
13:28
forth. Yeah. Of course, I want to talk about, you know, some of
13:34
the specific ones that you've interviewed so far, or if you
13:38
want to preview any that are coming up. But before we do
13:41
that, I want to get into a little bit of, you know, the
13:45
typical advice when it comes to X's, right? Because the approach
13:50
that you took and the way that you know I have always
13:53
approached X's is very different than what most people would do.
13:58
So I have four things here that are kind of standard pieces of
14:03
advice. Let's just talk about each one of them, and I'm just
14:07
curious what your opinion is, right? So, like, cliché number
14:11
one is: this person is your ex; fuck them.
14:14
Miriam Katz: Yes, definitely. That is the exact phrase.
14:17
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, and not in the sexual sense, as in like
14:22
Miriam Katz: Fuck my ex, yeah.
14:24
Kevin Anthony: Screw this person, they're dead to me. I'm
14:27
never talking to them again.
14:29
Miriam Katz: Like, yeah, I have really never felt that way, and
14:36
I have a really good friend who's an ex, and as you said, I,
14:39
I mean, I have a relationship certainly with his partner now,
14:42
but a very close relationship with his daughter, and it feels
14:46
the same as if it were an old friend. We dated from 2000 to
14:50
2004 to 2009, so for a long time. But that is a long time
14:54
ago, and our relationship feels completely different. We are
14:58
cellularly; we have. Overturned, and it's a very different thing.
15:02
It's a very beautiful relationship, and yeah, I have a
15:04
lot of examples of that. I think if someone abused you in a
15:10
particular way, there are certainly cases where I'd agree
15:13
you don't need to keep on talking to that person. But
15:16
overall, if you didn't make sense as partners, if you stop
15:23
feeling in love, if you weren't sexually compatible, that
15:27
doesn't mean that you want to throw away all of that.
15:30
And in fact, I really love memories of people that I used
15:35
to be with, and bringing those up now as friends. Yeah, to me,
15:39
it feels the same as people who I've been friends with for a
15:42
really long time, and it's even closer because you usually have
15:45
met their families, you've taken trips with them, you have these
15:49
very intimate memories with them, but I think it is
15:54
possible, and you can turn it into something else. And I find
15:58
it feels really right to not just lop off that entire
16:03
experience, but to leave space. I usually wait a long time after
16:08
I break up with someone to be able to talk to them again. In
16:11
that case, I didn't talk to that person for a year. I'd say for
16:13
about a year. Truly, no talking, no texting, nothing. And then,
16:18
once I feel differently and don't want to grab them and kiss
16:22
them anymore, I'll see what it's like.
16:26
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, you know, this whole idea of, like, oh,
16:30
you know, screw them, like, all right, excluding what you said,
16:36
right, which is you were in an abusive relationship, maybe, or,
16:39
you know, there's something where it's really not healthy or
16:41
safe. Excluding that, you know, yeah, you can be angry with
16:46
somebody. You can realize that maybe they did some things that
16:50
weren't really cool. But at the same time, if you're really
16:53
honest with yourself, you'll probably realize you did some
16:57
things that weren't all that cool. You got wrapped up in it
17:02
too, and like also, and this usually only happens a few years
17:06
down the road, hopefully.
17:07
But you can also hopefully look back and realize that, like,
17:12
where the two of you were at in that moment, like where you were
17:15
at as far as your spiritual development, your psychological
17:20
development, your emotional development, as you know, and
17:23
look back and go, "Wow, I can see why it got so out of hand as
17:27
it did because you know he was this and I was that, or
17:30
whatever. Like when you can have that perspective, right? Then
17:34
you can kind of let go of a lot of that baggage where you just
17:37
have that anger towards them, where you're just like, "Fuck
17:40
them, right? You know,
17:41
Miriam Katz: And I don't even think I usually get to the point
17:45
of fuck that person, though, in a relationship itself. I think
17:49
that's ideal if a breakup is not screaming, if a breakup is sad,
17:54
and there's some elegy in it. But I, yes, I mean I've
17:59
certainly fought with partners, but I feel like the end ideally
18:03
is not a screaming match. So I think even this attitude that
18:06
you and I share, I think probably starts earlier. It
18:10
starts in the relationship, and yes, you get way more
18:13
perspective later. But even during it, if we're having an
18:16
argument, we are both involved with that. If this is a
18:20
difficult relationship. I did choose this person. I was
18:23
attracted to this person for a reason, drawn to this person. So
18:27
yes, I think there's generally, if you believe you are
18:31
implicated in the relationship on all levels, and....
18:34
Kevin Anthony: And you are.
18:35
Miriam Katz: You are, then later you can understand that they are
18:40
not a villain, and in fact, I'd say this is so broad, but almost
18:46
no one is a villain, and we all are capable of bad behavior.
18:50
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with your point.
18:53
Also, you know, you shouldn't even get in the relationship to
18:58
the point where you're like, you know, fuck this person, fuck
19:02
this relationship. Like, you shouldn't really ever be at that
19:05
point because you should have enough emotional maturity to be
19:10
able to work through these things, talk through these
19:13
things, even if that means saying We recognize we're not
19:16
compatible, and you know this isn't the right relationship for
19:20
us. But it shouldn't ever get to that level to begin with. So,
19:23
Miriam Katz: Yeah.
19:24
Kevin Anthony: If you don't get there to begin with, then it's a
19:26
whole lot easier to not be holding on to that later on
19:28
because you never had it to begin with.
19:31
Miriam Katz: Well, I want you to be able to get to your next one,
19:33
but I was listening to, I think, your most recent episode with
19:38
Dr. Jillian. What's her last name?
19:40
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, I'm drawing a blank on her last name at the
19:44
moment.
19:44
Miriam Katz: Insert here, and her talking about being drawn to
19:49
certain. It was a great episode. Everybody, listen to that one if
19:52
you haven't. And her being drawn to, yeah, people being drawn to
19:57
the toxic. I think this that relates here. So even if it is a
20:01
toxic situation like the episode I was talking about, where it
20:05
was very difficult, I hung out with that person for six years.
20:08
What was what was why why was I drawn to that? Why did that
20:13
toxicity do something for me? Why did I like that poison?
20:17
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, but you know, to do that, that requires
20:20
a level of introspection that a lot of people don't really have,
20:23
unfortunately. Like you have to be able to sit down and ask
20:26
yourself those really difficult questions, right? Why? Why was I
20:32
attracted to that? Why did I stay so long? Why did I react
20:36
the way I did in that relationship when I don't
20:38
normally react that way, right? Like you need to be able to ask
20:41
yourself all of those questions. And by the way, Jillian O'Shea
20:46
Brown is her name.
20:48
Miriam Katz: See, that was so interesting.
20:51
Kevin Anthony: I thought it was a great episode too. I really
20:53
liked it, and a couple of the little clips I posted on social
20:56
media have been stirring some people's emotions a little bit,
21:02
yeah.
21:02
Miriam Katz: And to think about your caregivers and how they
21:05
affect who you choose-that is really deep stuff.
21:08
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, I got one guy on TikTok who I just saw it
21:12
this morning. Wrote like this giant book, just screaming at me
21:16
about how this is complete BS. What she was saying, and I was
21:19
just like, "Oh boy, you were.....
21:21
Miriam Katz: Affected by this content.
21:24
Kevin Anthony: Yes, you were. Okay, so that was the first sort
21:30
of cliché or piece of standard advice. The second one, and this
21:34
is the one you'll hear pretty much from everybody all the
21:37
time, is: you break up with somebody, don't talk to them.
21:40
What do you think about that?
21:42
Miriam Katz: I agree with that, actually, for a certain amount
21:45
of time because if you break up with someone and see them the
21:47
next week, you're gonna want to have sex with them, and it's
21:51
gonna be confusing. So I think for me personally, it's
21:57
different for each person, but it might be just a certain
22:01
number of months, or it might be a year, but I feel it in my body
22:06
when I'm ready again to talk to somebody and consider being
22:08
friends with somebody if I like them and want to keep hanging
22:11
out. But I don't agree with it overall, and there are certain
22:17
people that I'm not exactly friends with. But as you said,
22:20
we follow each other on social media. Maybe every once in a
22:22
while, at a wedding or something, I'll see them, and
22:24
it'll feel really nice just to have a positive exchange, even
22:30
if I don't spend time with them one-on-one very much or at all.
22:34
So I agree with it initially, but globally, I don't. I think
22:40
it feels really good, and it feels really nice not to cut
22:44
anything off from your life.
22:47
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, you know, I think that it's only good
22:50
advice, like you said, insofar as you need time to heal from
22:55
it, right? So that time can vary dramatically from person to
23:00
person, relationship to relationship, but I think the
23:04
way I would phrase it, if I were, you know, coaching
23:08
somebody on this, rather than saying Don't talk to them, don't
23:13
talk to them next, don't talk, I would say Set clear boundaries
23:17
with them, right?
23:19
Because there may still be a few logistical things along the way
23:22
that you might have to communicate with this person
23:25
about, depending on how long you were together, how intertwined
23:29
your lives were, that sort of thing. I would say just set
23:32
clear boundaries that give you the space that you need to let
23:35
go of any attachments that you have, right? To move through
23:39
whatever process you need to move through, and then once you
23:42
feel like you've been able to do that, you know, then you can
23:46
re-engage. But I think a lot of people get really caught up in
23:49
this sort of black and white of it. It's like X, don't talk.
23:52
That's it. You're dead to me.
23:54
Miriam Katz: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you should also set
23:57
clear boundaries with yourself. It's one thing to say to the
24:01
person, "We're not going to sleep together. But decide what
24:04
it is. If you are asking someone to hang out because you actually
24:08
want to be with them, be upfront with that person about that, and
24:12
be honest with yourself if that's what's happening, and
24:16
don't make it a confusing, blurry thing because that's not
24:19
going to be a fruitful exchange. But if you know you're
24:23
completely over it, and you have the sense that they are, great.
24:26
Have coffee, please.
24:28
Kevin Anthony: Exactly. All right. What about the next one,
24:31
which is block them?
24:35
Miriam Katz: I really don't like the idea of blocking anyone,
24:40
yeah. I'm just not a blocker. Again, if it's a safety or abuse
24:45
issue- if somebody sends me something, a stranger sends me
24:50
something, you know, abusive online, and I don't know them-
24:56
then yes. But in general, yeah, I'm really not a blocker at all.
25:02
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, I'm not a big fan of blocking unless
25:04
there, again, like we were saying, there's something, you
25:07
know, unhealthy or dangerous about that person, or let's say
25:11
there have been circumstances where, you know, you've set
25:14
clear boundaries and the other person will not, you know, abide
25:18
by those boundaries that you've set. So they keep reaching out.
25:22
They keep commenting on everything that you do. Right?
25:25
They keep, you know, in situations like that. It may be
25:28
necessary, but generally speaking, and the reason why
25:32
we're talking about it is that people, of course, would say,
25:35
well, yeah, in those situations, of course, block them. But what
25:39
I've seen a lot is, you know, we've broken up, so there's just
25:43
this default automatic. I have to block them.
25:45
Miriam Katz: Yeah.
25:46
Kevin Anthony: And I said no.
25:47
Miriam Katz: And if you want to mute someone because you don't
25:50
want to see them on social media, that totally makes sense
25:54
to me. There's somebody I dated. He's the first episode of the
25:58
podcast, and I said I do want to be friends with you, but I need
26:02
to think of you differently, so I, I really don't want to talk.
26:06
And a couple of months later, he texted me something, and I said
26:11
it again. And maybe five months later, I said it again very
26:14
clearly. And then he got the message. And then eight months
26:18
later, I felt differently. And now we are very good friends. We
26:22
vacation together. You know, we're such good friends, and so
26:26
if I had just blocked him, then that would have. I think I just
26:31
needed to explain it to him very clearly, and then he finally
26:35
understood, and now we can be friends. I just yeah, one strike
26:39
feels like too too simple. In general, use the term black and
26:43
white. I do not have black and white thinking about exes.
26:46
Kevin Anthony: That's good, and you know, that's the thing too.
26:49
Is like you mentioned. Well, okay, if you don't want to be
26:52
seeing them, because this is something you'll hear a lot from
26:55
people when they've gone through a breakup. They're like, you
26:58
know, the algorithms knew at least that we were together, and
27:01
so they tend to show us each other's stuff more often because
27:04
in the past we were liking it and commenting on it and all
27:07
that stuff, and now we keep seeing it, and we don't want to
27:09
see it. So everyone's like, "Block, just block. Go ahead and
27:12
block them. You don't want, you know. And it's like you can, in
27:15
most of these, just simply go in there and say, "Don't show this
27:19
to me anymore. You don't have to block them completely. Yeah.
27:22
Right. You don't have to unfriend them, remove them from
27:24
your life, right? Unless, of course, they're breaking
27:27
boundaries, but
27:28
Miriam Katz: Yeah.
27:28
Kevin Anthony: You can just simply say, "Don't show this to
27:30
me anymore. Unfollow this person, right? But you're still
27:33
connected as friends, depending on what platform you're on.
27:37
Miriam Katz: And you can even let them know that.
27:39
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, absolutely.
27:40
Miriam Katz: I mean, obviously, all these depend on the
27:42
situations, but I could imagine a world of saying, "This is a
27:45
lot, so I'm going to mute you for a while while we're not
27:48
talking, so there's no confusion. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
27:51
just say stuff.
27:52
Kevin Anthony: But again, you know, as we're talking these
27:55
things through, what it's showing is somebody who has
27:59
enough emotional maturity to be able to pause for a moment and
28:03
not make reactive decisions, right? Because the fuck them,
28:07
don't talk to them ever, block them- those are all reactive
28:11
decisions, right? Where somebody's just like lashing out
28:15
because they feel hurt and making sort of rash decisions,
28:19
rather than somebody who's taking a step back, taking a
28:23
couple deep breaths, and going, "Okay, I know every time I see
28:27
them, I feel this emotional zing. It's not making me feel
28:31
good. It's not helping me get over them. Okay, why don't I
28:36
just go and say, like, unfollow or don't show me this, or mute
28:40
this person for X number of days. Like, the platforms all
28:44
have some feature like that, right? Like, that takes a little
28:48
bit more.
28:49
Miriam Katz: Yes, there is this maturity, but I'll also say
28:52
there is a wildness to this way too. It sounds like, again,
28:56
black and white. There's the toxic way, and that's sort of
29:00
exciting, and then the serious, mature way is different. I think
29:04
there's a wildness; the same way there are open relationships and
29:09
then there's monogamous relationships. There's a
29:12
wildness to being monogamous. I think there's a wildness to the
29:17
honest way too. Yeah, I don't think it's just dull. I think
29:21
it's extremely exciting to be able to say honestly and with
29:25
vulnerability, I'm going to mute you for a while because it hurts
29:29
a lot, and I care about you. But let's not talk for a while.
29:33
There's something. There are dopamine hits in that too.
29:39
Kevin Anthony: You know, you just said something that is not
29:41
a question on my list, but I wanted to ask you about it
29:44
because you've mentioned it twice now in the show, and that
29:46
is this idea of having been in open or poly relationships
29:52
before. How has that influenced how you approach breakups?
29:58
Miriam Katz: Oh. So interesting, great question. Well, I think
30:02
now I am not in open relationships, but I was for
30:06
many years. I'd say about 20, and I would never quite call
30:10
myself Polly. It was sort of a don't ask, don't tell version.
30:15
Yeah, and a lot of the time I was with someone in a sort of
30:20
lighter way, and then we had the freedom to do what we wanted
30:24
when we weren't hanging out, but we wouldn't talk about it, so it
30:30
wasn't a sort of classic ethical no-man's-land situation. But I
30:34
will say, I am really not a jealous person, and so I think
30:39
that could make it easier for me to have this kind of perspective
30:44
on exes, because the idea that they're with someone else makes
30:49
all the sense in the world to me. They're with someone else
30:53
before they're going to be with someone else after.
30:57
Maybe even while I'm with them, they're with someone to me that
31:01
makes as much sense as them going to see a bunch of music
31:05
shows, comedy shows, you know, living a life, trying different
31:09
things, and I really do have that thing. There's a really
31:13
great word for, oh, compersion. Compersion, yeah, that's the
31:17
word. Really, like when people are happy, so I think that there
31:21
is a relation, and it's the same impulse in you. You go do your
31:26
thing, enjoy yourself, live your life, and get a lot of love.
31:30
Kevin Anthony: You know, there's still, of course, to this day, a
31:34
ton of debate over what the best relationship style is. Is it
31:39
monogamy? Is it polyamory? Is it who knows all the other
31:43
variations in between there, and there is no actual answer to
31:48
that. One isn't better than the other. It's what works for you
31:53
and your partner. But the reason I was asking that question was
31:58
that if we're going to compare Polly and, you know, Mono, as
32:03
they call it, the one advantage that Polly has is that it forces
32:08
you to learn better skills. Because if you don't, the whole
32:13
thing blows up in your face so fast and so badly that it's
32:17
really not good, right?
32:19
And so, if you're going to manage multiple relationships
32:23
and all the interactions between multiple people, even if you're
32:27
not all necessarily communicating together, it takes
32:30
a fairly high level of communication and emotional
32:33
maturity. There are skill sets in there that, if you don't have
32:37
them, it's not going to go well, and it's going to blow up.
32:41
Whereas, in monogamous relationships, yes, you should
32:45
have those same skill sets if you want to have a really
32:48
successful monogamous relationship. But you can get
32:51
away with a whole lot more because you're only managing one
32:55
relationship. It's just less complicated altogether, right?
32:59
And you see this with people. You see them go years in these
33:03
monogamous relationships that are dysfunctional, but they
33:07
don't really blow up and disintegrate as poly
33:10
relationships tend to when you don't have those skills.
33:13
And so, I guess kind of what I wanted to point out by asking
33:16
that question was that I'm not saying everybody should go be
33:19
poly. I'm not even saying you should necessarily try it, but
33:23
if you have tried it, or if you've spent any time in that
33:25
world, you've probably learned skills, right, that are helping
33:30
you in all of your other relationships. And I also want
33:35
people in monogamous relationships to know that even
33:38
if you have no intention of ever being in a poly relationship,
33:42
you still have to learn the skills.
33:46
Miriam Katz: Yeah, yeah, and it can be that you feel really
33:48
comfortable with your partner spending the night with friends
33:52
out, or being really devoted to their art practice, and that you
33:57
allow them to fully independently have another love,
34:03
Kevin Anthony: Yeah.
34:04
Miriam Katz: Even if they're not having sex with that thing.
34:06
Kevin Anthony: Absolutely, and that's, you know that is one of
34:08
the things that Polly can teach you. And again, I'm not trying
34:12
to advocate that everybody should go out and be Polly. I'm
34:16
not in a Polly relationship and haven't been in one in many
34:20
years, much like yourself. So, I have been there, and I
34:23
understand it. And I just think that, you know, as you said, if
34:27
you're in that sort of a relationship, you have to learn
34:30
how to be okay with your partner spending time with other people.
34:34
Otherwise, it will eat you alive from the inside out, and it will
34:39
destroy you, so you can't function in that relationship
34:42
unless you find a way to come to terms with that and be okay with
34:46
it.
34:46
So on the mono side, right, it could be somebody's art; it
34:50
could be their work; it could even be their friends, right. So
34:54
it's a similar skill where you have to not just tolerate it;
34:57
you have to be okay. With it, like, yeah, I'm actually glad.
35:01
I'm happy. I feel compersion when they're in their music room
35:05
creating, or when they're writing their comedy bits,
35:08
right? And even though they've been in there for five hours,
35:12
and I wish they would come spend time with me, I'm happy because
35:16
they're happy, and that's something that they love to do.
35:20
So those skills do cross over. All right, I got one last piece
35:23
of advice. Then I need to take a short break, and then I want to
35:28
come back and talk about some of the really fun stuff from this
35:31
project that you've been doing. The last one is: don't talk
35:35
about them to your current partners. So don't talk about
35:39
your exes with your current partners. How have you managed
35:42
that one?
35:43
Miriam Katz: Interesting. You know, my current boyfriend does
35:47
not listen to my podcast. It would be such a download. It
35:52
would be so much information, and I never would have given him
35:57
all of that information. I will bring things up if it's
36:02
something I'm grappling with, and I had a boyfriend, as you
36:07
did. Did your wife die? Sorry to ask it like that. Your wife
36:12
died, or your girlfriend?
36:15
Kevin Anthony: Wife, yes.
36:15
Miriam Katz: Wife. So I had a boyfriend for two years, and he
36:19
died, and that is something I will talk to my current partner
36:23
about. It's something that's still a big part of my life, and
36:28
yeah, he's still a big part of my life-the dead boyfriend. And
36:32
but I'd say in general, I don't particularly-not because I'm
36:36
hiding it, but let me think why. Because all these other
36:41
myths-it's been like myth, myth, sitcom. You know, this is a
36:45
cliché, but there is-if it's vital to the conversation, if
36:49
it's a pattern, if I've been like this before, maybe. But
36:53
generally speaking, I don't-I don't know. What is your opinion
36:58
about that?
36:59
Kevin Anthony: I do have a very strong opinion about that, and
37:01
I'll say it like this: I think that you should, whatever
37:05
current relationship you're in, I think it should be at a level
37:08
where you can talk about these things, right? So you should be
37:12
able to have conversations with your current partner about past
37:16
partners if you need to, right? In other words, if it's
37:19
triggering, if you just can't go there, if the other person's
37:23
like, I don't want to hear it, like that's potentially a
37:26
problem. So you should have a relationship where you can talk
37:30
about these things if you need to talk about them. That's kind
37:33
of the the first piece of it, and then, you know, from there
37:37
on out, it's about a balance, right?
37:39
So, like, I think early on in a relationship, when you're
37:42
getting to know somebody, it's a time when you can talk about
37:46
those things more often, right? Because you're basically getting
37:49
to know this person. And like, if I were dating somebody, and
37:53
you know, especially now at this age in my life, like, okay, why
37:57
are you still single, right? Like, and there's no shame in
38:00
that, but just like tell me your story, like where are you at?
38:03
What have you been through? Like, because all that's going
38:07
to help me to get to know you better. So in the early days of
38:10
a relationship, I think you should be talking more about
38:14
that because you get to talk about past relationships and
38:17
what worked for you, what didn't work for you, what you liked,
38:20
what you didn't like, you know, and and that that sort of thing.
38:24
Once you get to know somebody and you kind of know their past,
38:28
and you've been in a relationship for a while, then I
38:31
think it's a little bit more of a balance. Like if it happens to
38:35
be relevant to a situation, and you know you should feel okay
38:39
bringing it up, but also it's not something that you want to
38:43
be doing all of the time, and here's the big one. Here's the
38:47
big, giant piece of advice: Do not compare your current partner
38:51
to your past partners. Never do the comparison thing. That will
38:55
drive your partner insane, especially if your past partner
38:58
was somebody who was really amazing, because your current
39:02
partner will always feel like they're never good enough, and
39:06
you don't want that in your relationship. So you don't want
39:10
to do the comparison game.
39:11
Miriam Katz: Well, you know, I would say, even in a positive
39:14
way, you know, maybe occasionally, but you're so much
39:16
more mature than her or whatever. I think, yeah, any
39:19
kind of comparison could be a problem later, right?
39:21
Kevin Anthony: But at the same time, like down the road, you
39:24
know, something comes up, and you know it's relevant to the
39:27
situation. It's okay to share here and there. It shouldn't be
39:30
like a no-go zone. It shouldn't be an off-limits thing. You
39:33
shouldn't get triggered when your partner brings up an act,
39:36
and you shouldn't be constantly talking about it because what
39:40
does your partner really want? Your partner wants to know that
39:43
you're 100% present with them, that they're the number one most
39:46
important person in your life. And so, if you're constantly
39:49
talking about an ex, what does that indicate? In any case, you
39:52
haven't let go yet. It indicates you still have a bunch of stuff
39:56
there, and you're not giving as much of your energy and
39:59
attention to your current. Partner as you could be now.
40:02
I will say that, for me personally, this has been a big
40:06
challenge for me because, you know, having been together with
40:10
my wife for a long time, having had, you know, this basically
40:14
like a storybook relationship, you know, with somebody that I
40:18
felt was my absolute most compatible human I've ever met,
40:22
right? Now she's gone, and I'm out there dating. Like, it is so
40:27
hard, or at least it was in the beginning, not to compare
40:31
everybody else, right, to her. So it was an extra challenge for
40:35
me, and I had to remind myself, like, everybody is different.
40:40
Everybody is their own unique person. Everybody's going to
40:44
show up in their own way, and it's not good to compare them, right?
40:48
So rather than looking at and going, "Well, she was this, and
40:52
you're that, right? It's like, let's see who you are and focus
40:56
on who you are and what you bring, rather than trying to
41:00
compare it to something that was in the past. So that has been an
41:04
extra special challenge for me. But generally speaking, I would
41:08
say just don't compare. Just create an environment that's
41:12
open enough, where in relevant situations where it makes sense,
41:16
you're both capable of talking about it in a calm, emotional
41:19
way, where it's not causing any conflict in the relationship.
41:23
Miriam Katz: I will also add that when I was dating a lot
41:27
four or five years ago, a lot of men would complain about their
41:33
recent divorces and complain about their recent ex on the
41:38
first date, a bunch. This is a huge no-no on second dates with
41:43
any of those people, and I get that it's what's going on in
41:48
your life. Talk about pickleball. Talk about anything else.
41:53
Kevin Anthony: Hold on a second. Please say that one more time.
41:56
Repeat that part. You didn't what?
42:01
Miriam Katz: Feed me the line, and I'll say what I.
42:03
Kevin Anthony: You didn't go on a second date with any of them.
42:06
Miriam Katz: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
42:08
Kevin Anthony: Right, and guys, I want you to hear this because
42:11
this is a huge complaint I hear from women. This is a major red
42:14
flag for them. If you go out on a date with somebody and you
42:17
spend half the date complaining about your ex, I don't care how
42:21
pissed off you are at them. This woman is going to run in the
42:24
other direction because she's already projecting out into the
42:28
future. I'm going to be the next one he's bitching and
42:31
complaining about.
42:32
Miriam Katz: Yeah, and he can't control himself. He's still so
42:35
overwhelmed by this. He's not ready.
42:38
Kevin Anthony: Yep. Okay, man. We got so much more to talk
42:40
about. Let me take a quick break, and then we've got to
42:43
come back and talk about some of the fun stuff. All right, if
42:47
your relationship feels disconnected, if your sex life
42:50
has lost its spark, or if you just know something needs to
42:53
change, then relationship and intimacy coaching can help. I
42:56
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42:59
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43:03
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43:06
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43:10
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43:13
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43:16
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43:19
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43:22
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43:26
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43:29
to book your free strategy call. That is kevinanthonycoaching.com.
43:33
Okay, so I know you've got some really fun stories that you have
43:37
shared on the show. I wrote a couple of notes down about, you
43:41
know, a sex addict, a stripper, a terminally ill person, a
43:45
rabbi. Like, share some of these fun stories of exes that you
43:49
have interviewed, and tell us a little, like, how did it go? Was
43:54
this person receptive to it? Did you feel like you got any sort
43:58
of closure from it? Like, tell us a little bit about some of them.
44:02
Miriam Katz: Yeah, one that comes to mind hasn't come out
44:05
yet, so I'm teasing. But it was somebody who did not want to be
44:10
friends with me after we broke up. So it's very relevant to
44:14
this conversation, and it was really heartbreaking. I dated
44:19
him in the early 2000s. We were in our early 20s, and I couldn't
44:24
understand it. And those first few years, it was really
44:28
painful. But even how many years ago is that? I mean, that is
44:32
more than 20 years ago. 30. I mean, you know, it's a long time
44:37
ago. More than 20 years ago, and I never understood it, and it
44:41
always hurt a lot. And every once in a while, I would reach
44:46
out, and he didn't want to deal with it. And so I always thought
44:50
he really disliked me, and I also assumed he would not go on
44:55
the podcast.
44:56
So, in the first season, I didn't ask him because I didn't
45:00
want to. It was such a project, and I wanted to boost myself. I
45:05
said, "Okay, I'm going to wait. And then, second season, the
45:09
first season went super well. I got all these great people. I
45:14
felt like I could handle the rejection, and he said yes. And
45:19
as it turned out, he'd been. I knew that he was abusing drugs
45:23
and alcohol. We were in our early 20s, and I was also
45:27
drinking a ton. It was kind of just the way that it was in New
45:32
York then, and he didn't want me to see him like that. Things got
45:37
worse, and this whole time I thought he hated me. More
45:41
complicated than that, but I had all these stories in my mind,
45:46
and then he thought that I really thought he was this awful
45:50
person, and he was embarrassed, and so we had this truly healing.
45:55
Both of us had these other ideas of how the other thought of us,
45:59
and then we could rethink that whole thing, and I had this
46:02
conversation I'd been aching to have with him since we broke up,
46:06
and it felt so good. So yeah, that's not. I'm happy to tell
46:10
the funny stories, but that was the first one that came up that
46:14
feels related to everything we're talking about. How good it
46:17
felt to reconnect with the next, and I don't. If it doesn't make
46:21
sense for his life. I don't need to be his best friend now, but
46:25
it just feels so nice that we were able to, before we died,
46:28
have a conversation like that.
46:30
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, I mean, what's really cool and
46:32
interesting about that is that you had this whole story about
46:36
how he was feeling about you that turned out to be completely
46:40
untrue, and I think that's one of the interesting things,
46:43
right? Because you know we talked a little bit earlier
46:46
about, you know, how you don't necessarily need to have a
46:50
person in your life in order to create closure and heal and move
46:54
on, but that it's easier, right? And so this is a good example of
46:57
that because if he wasn't around anymore, let's say he OD'd
47:01
because of his addictions, right? You would have to come to
47:05
terms with the fact that he, you know, basically hated you and
47:08
never wanted to talk to you, and you could do that, and you could
47:12
move on from it. But now you don't have to do that because it
47:16
turns out that was never even true, and you wouldn't have
47:19
known that had you not been able to actually have a conversation
47:23
with him.
47:24
Miriam Katz: And look, that's such a great example. But even
47:26
if it were true, even if he hated me, it would be very
47:30
helpful for me to know why. Because I had always wondered.
47:33
It didn't make sense to me. We had this really beautiful
47:36
relationship that devolved mostly because he was on stuff.
47:40
But yeah, I just didn't understand it. So even if it
47:43
does still turn out to be the scary thing, the truth is better
47:46
than the confusion. That is, that could be the long line of
47:50
the podcast. It's not quite as sexy, but yeah, version.
47:53
Kevin Anthony: Well, rather that comes back to the the famous
47:55
saying: "The truth shall set you free.
47:57
Miriam Katz: Oh my God! But truly, truly, truly, even if
48:00
it's something that's unpleasant, it's better to know
48:02
than to wonder, because those loops will take your energy.
48:06
Kevin Anthony: Oh, absolutely, they will.
48:08
Miriam Katz: Yeah, and you should put that energy into sign
48:10
creative. Better use of your energy. Okay, so then fun
48:14
stories. I was in Montreal giving a talk at a conference,
48:20
and Montreal is most known for strip clubs, and I went with a
48:26
work colleague. I was giving a talk about art and comedy, and I
48:31
just, yeah, I thought I'm going to go see this performance, and
48:35
really didn't think about it. I hadn't gone to a lot of strip
48:37
clubs before, and I saw this really beautiful and also really
48:42
compelling, charismatic dancer, and I got a lap dance with her,
48:51
and it was a private booth. And she took off my clothes, and we
48:54
ended up hooking up, and we did, and we hooked up for five songs.
48:58
And she said, "I'm not charging you. It was super, super, super
49:01
sexy, just an incredible experience.
49:04
And to me, because she was in this world, I assume that just
49:07
happens sometimes, and it was totally not a big deal to her.
49:11
And I did find her and thought that she would barely remember
49:14
it, which would be fine. I mean, sometimes I remember things more
49:17
than people do. That's no problem. So I really thought it
49:21
was just going to be me telling her the experience, but she
49:25
really remembered it. She had told lots of people about that
49:29
story. It was a really hot story to her, and she remembered what
49:32
I was wearing. And she, as it turned out, did have a sense of
49:36
her charisma and how cool she was. Super funny, super smart,
49:40
and also really saw stripping and sex work as healing, and
49:45
getting people back into their sexuality, getting them to feel
49:48
confident, sexy, attractive, lifting their spirits, waking up
49:53
their energy, really beautiful. And she talked about how
49:57
somebody who's an Much older man whose wife had just died came
50:02
in, and he asked if he could pretend that she was his dead
50:07
wife, and that she looked like his dead wife when she was
50:11
younger.
50:12
And so they just sat, and he told her he loved her, and they
50:16
did this role-play. So it was so interesting that I was attracted
50:23
to a person, and then, as it turned out, this was really
50:27
special. Could have been anyone. I could have just been
50:30
physically attracted to her. But there is a magic in who you're
50:33
attracted to, and sometimes you just have an instinct. There
50:36
were many beautiful women stripping. It was a Montreal
50:39
strip club, but that was who I was drawn to, and that
50:42
sometimes, as I said earlier in the conversation, you hit a new
50:47
level because you have a relationship with someone, or
50:51
even just a hookup with a person, and yeah, that sometimes
50:56
who you are, who you feel compelled by, has Meaning,
51:02
Kevin Anthony: Especially if you are listening to the fact that
51:05
these things have meaning. Yeah, but you know that's another
51:10
great example of, like, in your mind you were like She probably
51:13
does this all the time with so many women or men or whatever,
51:17
and like She's not even going to remember who I am. And it turns
51:19
out it was actually a unique moment for her as well, and one
51:23
that she's remembered all these years later.
51:27
Miriam Katz: Yeah, really fun to hear those things. Yeah, big or
51:30
small, you know, I went on a- I talked to my first date ever in
51:35
the fifth grade, and we didn't really talk before, during, or
51:38
after that date. I think during that date, we probably talked
51:40
about pizza. We did. I thought boys were different than girls
51:44
when I went on the date with him, so I just didn't know how
51:46
to talk to him, even though I could talk to any girl in my
51:48
class. And he said that I asked him out while he was on the
51:53
swings, which was a detail I didn't remember. I knew I asked
51:56
him out, but it's such an innocent, sweet detail. Also, I
52:00
didn't really know him, and it turned out he was very cool.
52:03
Also, and that's fun to know, I had some kind of instinctual
52:06
good taste. But either a major thing, like someone telling me
52:12
they didn't hate me, or even just a small detail to reopen
52:16
and spark that memory feels really good.
52:20
Kevin Anthony: Well, you know, and that's something that's
52:22
interesting too. Is that we never really know the impact
52:26
that we have on people, right? And so, even if a relationship
52:30
didn't work out well, even if you ended up not talking to each
52:35
other, like, if you're really honest and sit back and, you
52:39
know, look at past relationships, you'll generally
52:42
find that they all had some sort of at least somewhat positive or
52:48
even potentially profound, you know, effect on you and your
52:54
path going forward from that point on.
52:57
Miriam Katz: Oh yeah, there have definitely been people who have
52:59
affected my creative life in a huge way, which is something
53:02
that's a really big deal to me. And somebody I interviewed for
53:06
this season was much, much younger than me. It was almost
53:09
ridiculous. And he, first of all, I complimented his nose,
53:15
and it really affected him in a positive way. And then also, he
53:19
said that I was the first person he ever spent time with who was
53:22
really sex positive. I don't particularly think of. I mean, I
53:25
definitely am, but that's a term that didn't exist, you know,
53:30
when I first started having sex. But anyway, that was a really
53:33
cool thing to find out. It was a fleeting thing. It was a very
53:37
light thing between us. But he was younger, and I think when
53:41
you're younger, things affect you more, and that's such a
53:44
beautiful takeaway.
53:46
Kevin Anthony: So, how how many years in between were there?
53:50
Miriam Katz: 20. I was 40, and he was 20.
53:52
Kevin Anthony: All right. I mean, it's a big age gap, no
53:56
matter what, but it's only really big, only because 20 is
53:59
still pretty young. Pretty young. Tony's pretty young.
54:03
Yeah. If he was 30 and 50, that 20-year age gap is not as big as
54:06
that. Absolutely. No. No. Yes. Yes. No.
54:08
Miriam Katz: It was Consent City, but it was very. That's a
54:11
ridiculous age gap.
54:12
Kevin Anthony: Well, let me just tell you. He may have been happy
54:15
about whatever comment you made about his nose, but more so than
54:19
that, he will forever be telling the story about the 40-year-old
54:23
woman who taught him some shit. Trust me. Trust me. That is
54:29
going down in his hall of fame. He's got it on the wall
54:32
somewhere. Yeah, dude. He's the envy of all his 20-year-old
54:37
friends. By the way,
54:39
Miriam Katz: I mean he's not 20 anymore, but yeah.
54:42
Kevin Anthony: Well, he was, at the time, the envy of all his
54:44
20-something-year-old friends, male friends, by the way. His
54:49
female friends were probably like, "Oh. All right, we got
54:55
time for just a little bit more. Any other stories? That maybe
55:01
had a profound impact on you, or maybe are just profoundly
55:05
entertaining. I don't know.
55:07
Miriam Katz: Well, you mentioned that there was a rabbi- not only
55:11
a rabbi, but an Orthodox rabbi. He is now an Orthodox rabbi.
55:15
When we hung out, we were 19, and he was figuring out that
55:22
when you're Orthodox, you're not supposed to touch women, and he
55:26
was figuring out what he was doing in that area because
55:31
Modern Orthodox is complicated. You get to exist in modern life,
55:36
but also adhere to these traditions. And we were dating.
55:41
We'd go on dates. We would study the tour together. I would
55:44
dress. I would cover my elbows and my knees. I was fully
55:46
cosplaying. I am such an actress, and we really, really
55:52
liked each other. There's a lot of emotion, a lot of laughing, a
55:55
big intellectual connection, and I was so drawn to him.
56:00
And the final night we hung out, because I was-he was going back
56:04
to Israel to study to be a rabbi, and I was going back to
56:08
New York, where I was in school, and I-we held hands, and it was
56:13
the first time we held hands, and it was so-I still feel-I
56:16
remember where we were in Boston. It was so electric, and
56:20
I tried to kiss him, and he said he couldn't. And we talked about
56:29
this on the podcast. He first of all regrets that he said I
56:32
should have just let the kiss happen. Why didn't I let the
56:34
kiss happen? Which is, you know, a saucy thing for an Orthodox
56:37
rabbi to say. And also, and first of all, he was super
56:40
flirty the whole interview. It was so fun. You look great. But
56:45
also, what I said is, I still remember yearning to kiss you. I
56:51
remember that energy so much. And maybe if it had happened,
56:54
yes, maybe I would remember the kiss.
56:56
But it's a stronger memory because I didn't fulfill it. And
57:01
so I like that there's this big range in the podcast. Sometimes
57:04
you have sex with somebody the first time that you meet them,
57:08
and then sometimes you never even kiss them, and that longing
57:14
becomes the memory. Do you ever watch High Maintenance, that TV
57:19
show? It's a really good show. It was on HBO for, I think, five
57:23
or six seasons about a weed dealer, and every episode was
57:27
split into two. And there's one episode called Trick, and one is
57:32
about a prostitute, and it's a one-night stand, and then the
57:37
other half is about a guy who's asexual having a relationship
57:42
with a woman who's an intimacy coordinator, but it's basically
57:45
about the people who actually have penetrative sex. There's no
57:51
intimacy, and then this beautiful love story between two
57:55
people that don't even touch. So there are all sorts of ways to
58:00
be connected and intimate, and I do like having some of these
58:05
innocent stories intermingled with the the stripper and the
58:08
sex addict and all that.
58:11
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, well, and it shows a range, right? So,
58:14
because otherwise, somebody could potentially get the idea
58:19
that, ah, she's just a, you know, a woman with a high sex
58:24
drive who's just, you know, going around screwing everybody,
58:26
and of course she's got a bunch of stories. But you know that's
58:29
obviously not the case. What I hope people would see from you,
58:34
you know, either telling your stories or listening to your
58:36
podcast, is a human life and its ups and downs, and the things
58:41
that worked, and the things that didn't work, and the things you
58:44
tried, and the things that, you know, all of that, right? Like,
58:47
this is the range of a human experience, everything from
58:53
barely holding hands with a rabbi to hooking up with a
58:57
stripper in a sex club, and everything in between, right? I
59:00
mean, that's often life for a lot of people, which is real,
59:04
which is what I prefer. I want to hear real.
59:08
Miriam Katz: Yeah, I love real, and and it's curiosity. It's
59:12
also I was really interested in how different people lived.
59:16
Kevin Anthony: Yeah.
59:17
Miriam Katz: Ihave a lot of larger-than-life characters: a
59:19
cult leader, A professional, well-known clown, a famous
59:24
comedian. I think I did that for a long time, and that also
59:28
shifted. I think that is not necessarily toxic, but there's a
59:34
little bit of hero worship, and I'm less interested in that and
59:38
more interested in equality. So it's also the story of how I've
59:44
changed in relationships.
59:46
Kevin Anthony: I wonder how many people know the names of actual
59:49
professional clowns. I was trying to think of myself. Like,
59:54
do I know an actual clown? Like, okay, I can think of one. I can
59:58
think of one. Yo, Kevin, move to Los Angeles. You will have so
1:00:02
many clown friends inadvertently. It will just
1:00:05
happen. It is a big part of the world here. Experimental clown,
1:00:08
I should say. Hmm. All right. I gotta ask you. Did he wear the
1:00:16
red nose?
1:00:17
Miriam Katz: No. No. No. Okay. All right, good.
1:00:23
Kevin Anthony: All right, we've got to bring this thing in for
1:00:24
landing because we're actually already out of time. But I want
1:00:27
to make sure that we wrap this up, and I want to know, because
1:00:32
we've talked about it throughout, but we haven't
1:00:34
really come out and really said it yet very clearly, and that
1:00:39
is, you've talked to all of these exes. You have talked
1:00:45
about, you know, I guess what worked, what didn't work, past
1:00:49
stuff, all that. What have you learned as a result of doing all
1:00:52
this? Like, if you could sort of distill it down to, like, what
1:00:55
have been the biggest takeaways from this project?
1:01:02
Miriam Katz: I don't know what's going to come out of my mouth. I
1:01:05
am much more sensitive than I thought, and I think everyone is
1:01:13
more sensitive than I thought. People who acted cool or icy
1:01:20
when we dated, are felt a lot during it, and are now, in older
1:01:27
years, sharing that honestly. And people remember a lot more
1:01:30
than I would have thought. I would have thought I cared more,
1:01:33
and yeah, I think people are sensitive, so you might as well
1:01:40
admit your sensitivity, and a lot happens when you admit your
1:01:43
sensitivity. You can really connect, and you can get over
1:01:47
certain things if you just say it and don't try to be tough.
1:01:52
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, and of course, you excuse me. You also
1:01:54
shared that you got a certain amount of closure out of a lot
1:01:58
of these.
1:01:58
Miriam Katz: Oh yes, I'd say that's another. Thank you.
1:02:03
That's another thing that I would say that I learned: it
1:02:05
really is possible to feel done with something, and not done
1:02:12
meaning I don't want to talk to that person anymore. But closing
1:02:14
the loop on a question or a story that was running through
1:02:18
my head and taking up brain space, taking up heart space,
1:02:23
and I do feel like I have a lot more space for loving my current
1:02:28
partner, loving my work, loving my creative life, loving my
1:02:32
comedy, and I want that. I want. I don't want to be still
1:02:37
obsessing over things, and I think people tend to be a bit
1:02:41
obsessive, so it's really nice to be able to finish. Yes, I'd
1:02:45
say I believe closure is possible, and I even more than I
1:02:49
did before really believe that conversations like this are very
1:02:53
healthy. Every situation is specific; every person is
1:02:56
specific. But if you have some inclination that this could be a
1:02:59
good idea, sure, do it with every single person; go ahead.
1:03:04
It's not trademarked, but also, even if it's maybe one, two, or
1:03:07
three people that you want to reach out to and say some things
1:03:12
that you never said, positive or negative, in a loving way. I
1:03:16
really recommend it.
1:03:18
Kevin Anthony: Yeah, and you said you felt it was healthy. My
1:03:21
next question was, you know, is there anything that you realized
1:03:26
got healed through this process that you didn't even know needed
1:03:29
to be healed?
1:03:31
Miriam Katz: Oh, I mean, it's so global. It's so big. There's
1:03:40
such an overall feeling of healing, having the truth come
1:03:45
out. I think I was healed from not knowing. I think I really
1:03:51
needed to know certain things and hear certain things, and to
1:03:54
feel respected by people. Even them coming is such a form of
1:04:01
respect, and I think it feels really nice to honor the past,
1:04:07
especially love. So I think there was a, yeah. I think maybe
1:04:13
we need a big chunk of love, and I feel that I've received that,
1:04:21
and that can be healing from childhood stuff too.
1:04:26
Kevin Anthony: Well, you know, I hope that people really took
1:04:29
some things away from this process, and you know, I'm not
1:04:33
saying everybody needs to go out and contact all of their exes
1:04:36
and go through this process, but I hope we at least maybe open
1:04:41
some minds to the fact that if you are holding on to some old
1:04:46
stuff, this could potentially be a healing process for you and,
1:04:52
you know, past partners, and you know, I think you very clearly
1:04:56
demonstrated through multiple examples. That both you and some
1:05:02
of the people that you talked to had very different ideas of what
1:05:08
actually happened in the past, or what you or they thought like
1:05:14
what you thought of them or what they thought of you, right? And
1:05:16
so clearing all of that stuff out, I imagine, really is a
1:05:20
pretty big load off of your shoulders, and most people
1:05:24
probably don't realize how much of that stuff they're still
1:05:25
carrying around.
1:05:27
Miriam Katz: Yeah, I mean, make the story more complicated.
1:05:31
Kevin Anthony: Make it a two-way story because your story is just
1:05:37
rarefied. It's too, yeah, make it alive, yeah. Like bringing
1:05:42
someone else in. I mean, when I'm working with clients as a
1:05:45
coach, and they've got some sort of, you know, pattern, whether
1:05:49
it's a relationship pattern or, you know, a sexual pattern or
1:05:52
something like that. Of course, we always start with childhood.
1:05:56
We poke around there a little bit, figure out what kind of
1:05:58
patterns, you know, come from there. But after that, we go
1:06:01
into significant relationships in a person's life, and we
1:06:05
almost always find something in there that is currently
1:06:08
affecting their present relationship, whether it's with
1:06:12
themselves or with their partner, that comes from some of
1:06:16
that stuff. So, you know, you can of course work through it
1:06:20
with me, or you can potentially work through it on your own
1:06:22
before you end up sitting down with me. Yeah, or you can do
1:06:28
both, right?
1:06:28
Miriam Katz: Work with Kevin.
1:06:29
Kevin Anthony: Thank you. All right, I want to thank you,
1:06:34
Miriam, for coming on the show and sharing, you know, your
1:06:38
whole process and being so open about all of that.
1:06:41
Miriam Katz: Thank you for having me. I really love talking
1:06:44
to you.
1:06:45
Kevin Anthony: It was a lot of fun as well, and I'm gonna have
1:06:48
to go subscribe to your podcast because we didn't even get into
1:06:52
a lot of the little nitty-gritty details. So I want to hear more
1:06:55
about some of these stories personally. I think that'll be
1:06:57
really fun and entertaining, especially since now we know
1:07:00
each other. It'll be a whole other level of interesting and
1:07:03
fun. So, thank you again for coming on.
1:07:09
Miriam Katz: Thank you.
1:07:10
Kevin Anthony: All right, everybody, that's all the time I
1:07:11
have for this episode, and I will see you next week. I hope
1:07:21
you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy
1:07:24
this show, subscribe, leave me a review, and share it with your
1:07:28
friends. And for more free exclusive content, join me in
1:07:31
the Passion vault@kevinanthanycoaching.com
1:07:34
forward slash vault. That's kevinanthonycoaching.com forward
1:07:38
slash vault. Thanks for listening, and remember, as
1:07:42
Celine used to say, "You're amazing."