Latest / The On Purpose Podcast / Ep. 373 – Tony Di Zinno: Chasing Glimmers

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Ep. 373 – Tony Di Zinno: Chasing Glimmers · The On Purpose Podcast

• speaker-0: You are listening to the On Purpose Podcast. What's up, everybody? Welcome to this week's edition of the On Purpose Podcast, where you know it's our job to challenge you a little bit, right? Challenge you maybe physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, to make sure we're getting the most out of this short ride we call life. And this week I am super pumped to bring on a man whose life resume is one I envy. I look at this, I'm like, okay, I don't think I'm doing enough compared to what he's doing. I'm talking about Tony DeZeno. Adventurer, visual storyteller, humanitarian, and man who's worked deeply with communities around the world. He's documented ultra endurance athletes, motorsports humanitarian crisis, endangered species conservation, and indigenous cultures. And he's someone that when I look into him, I'm like, okay, he's not hitting a point and saying I reached the destination, I'm done. He's constantly moving and he's enjoying the journey and the process and what he's doing that I I think it is so amazing is he's sharing the stories with us so that we can learn and that we don't forget, right? I think that's a big thing and that's the power of story is you don't know who's listening, who's gonna connect with it. So Tony, my newest friend, welcome to our show today. speaker-1: Thanks, Jared. I mean it's a pleasure to be here and and you know the the constant striving for finding the people in our tribe it it never ends. And and that's something we can talk about too. But but I feel I feel very welcome and at home with you just from right off the bat. speaker-0: I appreciate you, man. I I gotta tell you though, Tony, I'm not usually, I don't wanna say awed, but I don't I research a lot and I usually go this is gonna be a fun story and I know kind of where I'm gonna go. I look into your life and I'm like, man, this guy's making me feel lazy. I need to get out and do more. speaker-1: Well, I don't know about that, but you know, anywhere you can take inspiration from, maybe there's there's something really virtuous in that. If we want to talk about things that that are glimmers, right? The opposite of a trigger in PTSD is is a glimmer. So if a trigger sets us off and we're out of our body and we're back into this drama and trauma, a glimmer is something that actually returns us to ourselves. And While in our bodies, we experience something that is the opposite of the trauma. We experience maybe wholeness or or reverie, right? Is a great thing. So when you're talking about finding inspiration, man, that is, I think, one of the key practices to have in our tool belt. If you're wearing a tool belt that never comes off, that are your life tools or your wisdom tools, that seeking is the correct seeking, which is You know, what's the old axiom? It's it's we are either molded by our admirations or our hostilities. Now think about that. Those are two things intention, right? And so just from the the start, you've kind of revealed something really noble about yourself, which is the pursuit, the pursuit to be seeking. And, you know, in two words, I I relate to people who are wisdom seeking. Yeah. Right. And that's a lifelong love of learning right there. speaker-0: When did you realize that was a passion you had in your life? speaker-1: I would say you know, there's nature and nurture, right? if you're born with something, but people would say, Well, that's your nature. You've inherited that. But the the nurture part of it is what's around your environment. And obviously you can be born into a world that is dark and dangerous, or the the one where your family helps create something that it's your oyster, and you're you know, I love the expression of that, the oyster thing, because Even just recently I I mentioned about my life as a photographer was kind of like being a a Japanese pearl diver. Now that sounds really obscure, but think about that. The pearl diver has to be fit, has to be competent, has to know where to look, right? And if they're somewhat lucky, but most importantly, if they're determined, they can go deep enough dive and find the thing that opens the pearl. So here we are in that practice. Right? If I can be inspired by a Japanese Pearl Diver, when did it start? I saw Japanese Pearl Divers at SeaWorld when I was a kid. I was probably four or five. Now, how is that possible? Just the metaphor that it is. There's treasure to be found. So if, for example, if anybody relates to Indiana Jones, not just for the adventure and punching Nazis in the face, but that pursuit of something that's A deeper mystery. Just just wrapped in that, I think there was part of my nurture was growing up in a family that had a a library of books with from cinema on one wall and Hollywood's golden, you know, silver screen era, to my dad was a historian of sorts and had the fascist era and World War II on the other wall. And so between those two, I kind of found the intersection where the f the war photographers who were so brave. Eventually ended up in some way connecting to the movies post-war. So that kind of thing early on had a big effect on me. And I'd say it's a it's a great question because, like, well, can I actually point to a place and time? I'd it's that environment and those conditions invited me into the the world of pictures and storytelling. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that was a great analogy about the pearl divers. And yeah, I'm I'm just pondering on that for a second because you've covered some stuff that I don't know if horrific to right world word, but heart wrenching and that defies the belief in like our lives around us, but it's literally happened in the humans around the world. So did that analogy and that metaphor help you see the good and what would normally be on surface level very bad situation. speaker-1: Yeah, if you're talking about stepping into a conflict zone, you know, the there's there's a couple of photographers who stand out. The bravest of the brave, you know, back in the day was a a a Hungarian born fellow named Robert Kappa, who co-founded the Magnum Agency. And the reason Kappa's important is that, you know, there's an unwritten competition. Like who's who's the best at telling the story? And you don't have to be a harsh judge to just the sense how your own heart is reacting to the images. So Kappa, even when I was a young, young boy, those images from him emerged. And there was something about it that was just remarkable and that it it moved me. And I wanted to know more about him. What what's what separated him from others, all the others that are journalists, men and women, who are striving to tell the story. And and I the deeper I went with him, he was ended up being a a pal, a poker player, Drinking buddy of Hemingway's. Now I'm like, okay, now Kappa and Hemingway come together. That's really interesting. Kappa and Steinbeck come together. I'm like, so you it just blossoms the deeper you go into something, and you're starting to realize that these guys are in the same tribe. They belong together. They they have homecomings together. So when you're talking about, well, Hemingway and Kappa both met in places of war and conflict. And yet they're two of the most humane artists, if you will. And I'm I'm Going to put that together where photographers can be artful. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't do what I do. But how it influences me is again being drawn by admiration. Those sensibilities resonate. It's like you know the old expression about ringing a bell, that bell of truth rings and it just vibrates in a way that you you're attuned in. So when Kappa coined the term concern photographer, it meant concern. In a way, the first time any anyone in that era had suggested that we're concerned with kindness and compassion for those who aren't able to tell their own story. So that's part of the covenant, I think, or or I would say it was quite a great tradition that comes all the way forward into the modern era, where the class I teach at university on photojournalism starts by looking back at these great, significant, iconic photographers. And how they've influenced their progeny, which include me, but into the modern era with what agencies resonate and still bring those ethics forward, for example, to represent the oppressed or the underdogs or those who are suffering tyranny. So that's that's probably the greatest tradition if you have a sense of rooting for the underdog, the constant example of great photographers and photojournalists going into the places where the danger is in the conflict zone. To be able to come back and reflect to those who want the full story. And that's that's probably how can I say it's encouraging in a way that it gives you a greater good or a higher cause. speaker-0: Yeah, I love it. And I I can sense that research and having you on the show and looking into your photography and your work, you I was left with the impression of how important the people were to you. And not just how important they were, but how important their story was to other people to know. speaker-1: Yeah. I'll I'll I'll put it this way. If you don't mind I'll I'll just keep it's the professor hat on me, I I shamelessly name drop because the way my brain is wired and and the way it fires is to say, Well, you remember Mark Twain said that travel cures all prejudice. And on that premise he he went further and said, you should travel as much as you can, as far as you can, as long as you can, until you cannot. So if you put those things together like I did now, maybe That's stating the obvious. But that means that we should cure our prejudice by doing this thing as much as we can, as far as we can, as long as we can. And and I relate to that because it resonates in that this discovery, right, is that if well if I'm prejudiced, if I have a preconceived notion that I've inherited, I would submit to you, Jared, that all prejudice is rooted in ignorance. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: So if I'm actually educating myself. Let's say I go, my folks, for example, my own family. My mom is Irish as Patty's pig, my dad's Italian. My mom never fails to remind me, son. Remember you're half Irish, the good half. So so imagine I grow up with the these cultural leanings, and those are my people, the Irish and Italians, but then I begin to travel. And so now I'm like, okay, I go down to Australia. the Aussies are pretty good. They're salt of the earth. I'll I'll I'll bring those guys in. And then you travel to Malaysia and you're like, you know, these guys are pretty great. And it's like the capacity to expand one's heart and include this is the the opposite of exclusion, is that yeah, I can actually expand my ability to r relate as a human being to everyone if I put myself in front of them. So to your question, it's exactly and that shows how astute your observations are. The humanity is what drives me. So and that includes that's that's in all my affairs. speaker-0: I love it. Tony, you you brought up a question that that I'm super intrigued on your answer here. And and this is something I think we fight in today's world, is that if I let your knowledge in and your way of living into my life, I have to exclude something I've re previously known. So when I hear you traveling say I want to bring Ozzys in and a Malaysia in and I'm in Afghanistan, there's something I can learn in Afghanistan. Talk to me about balance and bringing culture in without the fear of losing who you were. speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. And I would put it this way. you know, I'm I'm fifteen years in twelve step recovery, and there's some wisdom there that is applies cross-culturally, and and it begins with this take what's useful and leave the rest. Think of how simple that statement is. Take just in our conversation, I could say in in all sincerity to you, take what's useful and leave the rest. And that means that anything I say can be taken with a grain of salt. Right. And you might deliberate. And I know you're thoughtful enough to go away and think about something that might have provoked you. And then maybe you test it and see if it applies to your life and your way of being. And then you have a the freedom to dismiss it. It's like, no, that's not really good for me, or it doesn't work for me. So that as what I'm gonna call another great life skill, is this discernment or discretion to allow something in. And not being overprotective and fearing that it's going to mutate my previous ethos, but know that my core values are strong enough to witness or experiment in ways that are inclusive. You know, that I'll give you one more example of that. Yesterday somebody asked me about equine therapy, and there's there's a considerable population that thinks, that's woo-woo, I'm not gonna do it. I don't how how do you know it works? And the question was something like, Well, what do you say to somebody who's a mental health professional and says, Well, I I don't know about that. I I think it's pretty woo-woo. And I said, Well, that's that's a sad state of affairs for someone who's a scholar or academic, and that they've excluded something before they've even taken it in. Because, you know, in the IQ test, it's the intersection between your performance and the time of your life. And they can measure this over the course of your entire life. So Mozart's an example of an early genius, Einstein a later genius, and so on. But the point is the only people whose IQ rises over the course of a lifetime are those who are willing to challenge their long-held preconceived notions. Now you think about that, that means that this academic hypothetically, who was going to poo-poo, you know, my professional practice was already jaded and cynical and close to hearing anything new. So I'm going to call that orthodoxy. They know what they know because that's the way we've always done it. It's almost a perfect example of dysfunction. If somebody says to me, hey, but that's all the way we've always done it, your your, you know, hybridization or your jazz fusion of something is dangerous to my convention. So in academia, if I'm speaking peer to peer, I'll say, Well, how do you include heterodoxy with these things that are nonconformists? Are you willing to take in new information or are you finished with your learning? So I don't take it personally if somebody shut down. speaker-0: Yeah, but that's the joy, right? Like I and I think that's the the joy is learning it. You might have been wrong. speaker-1: yeah, now you've nailed it. I don't know you're familiar with Dr. Richard Feynman, the physicist. There's a guy out of Brooklyn, and he's a legend. He's somebody I actually got to meet when I was in college because I went through school with his daughter, who became a photographer. So Feynman was at Caltech, and he's the guy who could take the most difficult theories of quantum physics and distill them in a way where he spoke plainly, and even a layman could understand them. And he has a mantra of Doubt and how it's it's a critical element in any working group. And then the joy of being proven wrong. Now you see how that's the opposite of where my question was posed. If if somebody's actually committed to lifelong learning, like Feynman, he was delighted when he could be proven wrong. Because then that just broke open a previous barrier to knowledge and wisdom. And so I I cite him as a personal hero for a number of reasons. And if if you ever have a chance to read his surely you must be joking, Dr. Feynman, it's a book, it's biographical, and it obviously hints at how irreverent he was. if you remember the 86 space shuttle explosion, he was on the commission to determine the cause. And at the great press conference, he took a glass of ice water famously, took the Morton Thycol O-ring, dipped it in the ice water, and snapped it. And it was a nonverbal expression of the entire commission's findings. That's that guy. He's just amazing. And you know, you have to be drawn to great teachers in life. And he even when they're off the planet, we can cite them as inspiration. speaker-0: All right, before I I get into something else I want to stand on this for a second, if our audience is listening and community members listening and they're like, Man, I just I I I'm so rigid, I'm just stuck in what I think I know and and I haven't had a new challenging thought in a while, what would you encourage them to do to open up and to move beyond? 'Cause it it happens, right? Like we get in a routine, we get like this is working for us. I got a house, I got my family. Why do I need something different? speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: How would they get started? speaker-1: Well, I understand it's human nature to have ritual bring comfort. we see this in religion, for example. you have regular meetings. this is this is understandable, but when you're talking about a rut, that means there must have some form of awareness. Like let's even just bring that up in bold caps. Awareness. What is awareness? I notice something stuck. Okay, so that's the beginning of it. So if if we're unconsciously doing our thing because that's what our we're doing redundantly. I'll I'll put it this way: we are all creatures of habit. That's not a controversial thing to say. And I'll add, the truth of that matter is that we are engaged in habits as creatures of habits that sometimes are actually bad for us. Now I think again, that's not controversial. People go, yeah, I smoke, I don't even think about I drink, or whatever it is. The ritual provides comfort even if it's harmful. So the first thing to change is Can I increase my awareness? If it was really subtle andor completely inactive, no change. But if I actually make an intention, think about this. There's two words that are operative here: intention and attention. Now there's only a letter difference, but what we're talking about are the two powerful things to do the first step, which is my awareness of being stuck. I have an intention to say, am I stuck? And then I pay attention, right? How stuck am I and start seeing the evidence? So you know, I I recently made an expression in submitting to podcasts like yours that was trying to encapsulate what the art of what I have done for years and years as a and photographer. And it's comes down to the art of noticing. And it's really short and sweet and simple. And I I can wrap my hands around it. And that's something that actually is so useful. In in all aspects. Right. I'm I'm noticing that I'm slightly stuck. So if I not only call for that awareness, respect that it needs to be done, and then act on it. So I'm gonna give you a triplet. I the way I think is in sort of mantra, awareness, acceptance, and action. So the triple A, right? Not the automobile club, but the awareness that I'm stuck, the acceptance that, yeah, it's kind of embarrassing. I've been stuck for How long? And then the movement into some action. If you take any one of those A's away, something's gonna fall down. But if you have a triple-A mantra in your head and go, I'm practicing the awareness to say I don't need to be stuck because I know life is short and I want to move forward through it. Okay, now that I recognize I'm stuck and see I can evaluate how stuck am I, I'm pretty stuck. I accept that the causes and conditions of my being a human being have placed me in this. I accept. I'm not denying it. I'm not trying to diminish it and rationalize it. But that's acceptance, which means that part of my being in an excellent practice is to be honest. Self-honesty with myself and the world. And therein lies the rub. If I'm doing that, then I can move to what I'm gonna call the next loving action or the next wisdom. And if I don't have the wisdom, I need to go and talk to someone like you and say, okay, how did you Get unstuck when you were. Therefore, I'm not relying upon myself to have all the answers, but I'm seeking the answers. speaker-0: Yeah, that's so powerful, right? I think that is one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is to release the pressure of having to know everything all the time. speaker-1: Well, you've put your finger on something great there, Jared, which is that if you're fortunate enough to travel and meet people, and especially if like me, I I make a practice of asking my own young Jedi's as students at the college level who are becoming emerging professionals, I said, think about how you're attracted to people you admire. Can you meet them? And I'll give you one example. I was asked to lecture in Atlanta at an art school. And they had photographers and designers, just like the school I come from in Pasadena. And after my little show and tell, they invited me into the classroom, which is the best, because it's live, there's no script, there's you know, it's it's the students' work on the wall. And they were doing one of my favorite assignments, which is they're teaming up in collaborations with photographers and designers to do movie posters. Now you're right, this is my wheelhouse. And the work on the wall is magnificent. It's called the portfolio school. And so I'm like, this is great. And so as we go around, I noticed, well, this student stood out in that I recognize she's paying homage to Tim Burton. It had Burton-esque design. It was actually they were remakes of real movies, right? So they're like striving to improve on on one sheet posters, which is a great challenge. And I asked the question to a the classroom full of these artists. I said, So have you reached out to Tim? Have you written him a fan letter just to let him know he's inspiring? And she was sort of shy about, No, I don't think so. And I'm like, Well, you must. And whether or not he answers and whether or not he he responds, the the practice of recognizing that he's inspiring you. And and I could see her sort of you know, the guys in the back like nah. The naysayers, right? And I said, I don't know how, but I'm gonna help you if I can to support this thing I'm asking you to do because I can't ask you to do something I won't do. I said, if it's possible for you to find a way to send this note. Just out of respect and admiration, we'll do that. So, Jared, the next day I flew out of Hartfield Atlanta Airport, which as you may know is the busiest airport in the world. Most flights per day, per year, millions of people traveling. And on my flight, that next day on third row and first class was sitting Tim Burton. Now, you remember what we said about intention and outten? Well, there's another element to that that we could really Submit to viewers, desire. So my desire was to do what? To be of service. I didn't know how it's gonna happen. I couldn't possibly control and calculate airline schedules and seating arrangements. Now that's way beyond my control. But I submitted that I had the right intention for the good-hearted reason to help this person connect to do the practice, which is to what? Pay some gratitude. And there's Tim in the third row. So of course. The flight takes off. I wait for the right moment to present myself, tell them the short version of the story, and the man whips out the card for William Morris Agency. You can imagine my delight when two weeks later I went back to that same school and presented this student with his card. And the point wasn't just to be of service to that student, but to blow the minds of those naysayers who are in the backseat who are thinking, what is he talking about? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: They couldn't possibly put themselves in the situation of fulfilling a wish. They thought, this, this, what is he talking about? It seemed to be out of the realm, but shattering that by doing what? By submitting myself to the possibility. Therein lies the rub intention, attention, and desire. And so it was. That's you can't make that up. That's that's a perfect example. speaker-0: Yeah, no, it's phenomenal. Yeah, I love that. I wanna shift, Tony, if we can. You're talking about speaking of service. I think this is a good time to pivot to something I was really interested in in your bio. And that is your deeply powerful work with the Great Sioux Nation and Pine Ridge and specifically teaching the young people to do their own documentary photography to tell their own story. Can you tell me like how that relationship began and and walk us through that? speaker-1: Yeah, there are a couple of key people. You know, I of course I put myself out there as you see, by intention. and and the point is that a reputation, yours or mine, is made by action. And there are folks who spend a lot of time worrying about, you know, how they build a reputation, but in fact it's all retrospect. For me, I had spent four years on a humanitarian project in Afghanistan. Prior to going to the Black Hills. And that work itself resonated with a number of people who are so concerned with the same issue, which is that we were empowering young women and girls for their education. And someone attached the meaning of we were giving them voice, because obviously in the Taliban era, which we've returned to, young girls are not allowed to be schooled past the age of 12. And so there's obviously oppression there. And it's the United Nations rates countries all over the world. Annually as to where the worst place is to be to grow up as a girl, and Afghanistan's a solid number one perennially. So if I looked at that situation and said, well, where can I go to make some difference on the grassroots ground level? Working with NGOs there in Afghanistan was it. And so four years of that work brought up a body of work, maybe some of which you've seen, but the fact is that the work speaks for itself when it's when it's considerable. And so therefore someone who saw that work and attached this expression of giving voice was also sitting in the room at the time when they were considering starting a project in the Black Hills with the Great Sioux Nation. And so I literally had my own hat thrown into the ring by s a colleague of mine who I went through school with. And it was sight unseen. And I got the call and it was an automatic yes. Automatic yes. Why? Because they too are in situations that are Clearly in need of some service. And so the premise was that the Sioux nation has nine tribes, Lakota, Nakota, Dakota, and so on. And and they have to compete with each other for prosperity and federal funds and this kind of thing. And so it's a conquer and divide strategy that's existed for a hundred years, right? And so In that, we proposed to support a unity concert that would be an annual event. And every year, all the tribes would come and celebrate through ritual, prayer, and music. Now that sounded like a really great way to address the divisions. And this was specifically a challenge that the Obama administration had given the Sioux nation, which is show us that you can unite in some way and Then we can talk about moving forward from the the woundedness of the past. So in that effort, we went and sat with tribal elders and proposed to be of service that way, but to actually have them produce the thing. So it's not the, you know, cliche white savior complex coming up and doing this performative things. And so going to sit in a tribal elder meeting means that they're considering the the proposal, and every member of the tribe. no matter their age, can speak for any length of time without being interrupted. And so it was my first experience of you know, the Lakota concept of time. We spent three days and three nights for this just this one proposal and only stop to eat and sleep. And during this time my counterpart was an American Indian movement warrior named Milo Yellowhair, and he had turned to whisper to me, and he said, You know, for thirty years Hollywood's been coming here and making photos and Taking movies and and he goes, They've never come back to to show us. Really? And he held his hands up to me. And I realized it was a f his form of a question. He's he was asking me, Are you the same? Are you gonna do the same thing and fetish us and then run away? And so we had a break, and next thing I did, having thought about this question, was to come back. I presented him a hard drive with all the photographs and all the recordings I had made and gifted it to him. And I said, What I have is yours to use as you like, and you can have full access to anything we produce in terms of witnessing this. And so Milo, we got together and decided to do a book on this. And then I the same question existed, which is, well, if it's me as an outsider trooping in and sort of documenting them, it's an outside in view. So again, with that kind of native wisdom, he turned to me and and talked about talk story and winter counts and buffalo skins. And I'm like, this has to be in the hands of The young bloods. So that person-to-person interaction made the difference in how we tell the story, how to support telling the story, which is to put cameras in their hands for the first time. All these guys, we had ages 13 through 17. And the cohort was small. We had maybe eight young bloods, and and these guys were all capable and and gifted, and two of the eight, two of the eight. went on to school themselves in photojournalism. Now that's an astounding number to me. That just in that small sample, they they got it. They like, they could do it, they could do it well. They loved it. And it just sparked something in them. So the reward was just dropping a pebble in the pond and watching the concentric circles go out and seeing the joy in the making and the telling. So I know it's a long way to tell a short story, but the fact is that we must go to see And asked the right questions to get the right answers. Well, what is it you need? What is it that you would like? And Milo, in his own way, told me exactly what he wanted and what he what he needed, which was not to be fetishized or objectified. And so we just flipped the whole script and put it into the native hands. So the book we produced is full of the native images. And we created a one-of-a-kind book, leather-bound in a case, embossed with. the medicine wheel and it's dedicated to President Obama, signed by all nine tribal elders. And that's a gift to the record to demonstrate the evidence of four years of that that work. speaker-0: Yeah. How how would you say did did your time at Pine Ridge change you or teach you anything that you're like, okay, if I hadn't been there I'd probably miss on this? speaker-1: Yeah, well there's nothing like going to see for yourself. it's the poorest reservation in the entire country. And so it begs you and me to revisit the history and understand the long view. The long view. So I'll I'll give you sort of the most succinct way I can put it. The way it changed me was that I could draw a straight line from the massacre at Wounded Knee to Sandy Hook. So if you remember the massacre at Sandy Hook, where 26 lives were lost, and most of them school children, and and the nation was mourning. And then everybody scratched their heads. Why? Because even that tragedy couldn't change the laws around reasonable gun control. And so when good hearted people start asking how what what more could possibly happen to move us to do something that's reasonable? And my experience in Pine Ridge was to understand that the straight line from Wounded Knee to Sandy Hook is that this this romance of the eminent domain and and manifest destiny and the love of cowboy films and and so on, it's that romanticism, even in Hollywood, especially with John Ford and John Wayne and all this stuff, that mythology has produced some kind of a rationale around the grief and sadness that that the old West had created in terms of the woundedness. Now there are seven generations, you know, from the Fort Laramie treaty. And that woundedness is inherited down through from fathers to sons and mothers to daughters. And so when you carry forward woundedness, you have the obvious side effects. And so I'm going to suggest that The thing I learned best about this experience was generational woundedness is a real thing, needs to be addressed, and maybe in a perfect way, was in the Black Hills where you're sitting now, where I saw my first healing with horses ceremony and was so moved by that. And I photographed it at a distance to be respectful and not to interfere with changing the energy of that kind of thing. but it stayed with me and it's it's probably one of the great reasons why I'm doing that same kind of I'm participating in it at a professional level now because I understand generational woundedness is a real thing. And it isn't just the native population. It's all of us. All of us. We we inherit woundedness from our own history. And the only question is, are we aware of it? speaker-0: Mm. Are we aware of it and are we aware of how it impacts our behaviors? speaker-1: Right. And that's that that's why I'm talking about moving towards awareness. And then well, what's the next step in accepting that gener generational wilderness is real and significant to the point where I move to do something about it. So that means participation or citizenship or you know, I the way I put it is that if if life is suffering as the great Buddha said in the first noble truth, the first of four truths is life is suffering by just Living your your existence creates suffering. Okay. I accept that. That acceptance means that I am no longer d denying myself or deluding myself. So I know it's pretty heavy stuff, but it is at the heart of the matter. And you asked you asked the the question, what did I learn? It was obviously something that was pretty profound. speaker-0: If there was something I guess I had a couple of questions on that. One is what was the first conversation like when you told them you wanted them to take the phot photos and you'd be behind the camera? Because they're they're they're tr they're traditionally very good oral storytellers, right? That's photography has been kind of outside their norm. It's like you said earlier, there was something the outside did for them or to them. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: What was that conversation like when you're asking them? Cause it kind of ties back to what we talked about earlier. They're they're gonna have to change how they've been doing things. speaker-1: Yeah. Well, you know, there's there's a greeting that it basically is metakuyasin, which is to all my relations. So when I'm dealing with natives in their own vernacular, if I I meet an elderly waiter, she's either my auntie or my grandmother. And so in this experience I understood that the everything's relationship. So when we proposed this idea to address the concerns of my counterpart, we went to the grandmothers and we asked the grandmothers Do you think that we we could find enough kids to be interested? And it was it they welcomed us. And there was a sense of playfulness and even and I dare to say purpose. There was something to do. And and maybe there's something in idleness when when things are are you know left undone that creates the potential for more trouble, right? So speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: just raising the sponsorship, which was straightforward to Provide enough cameras and then the basics, make it simple so they could go forward and start capturing. And then the only question was, well, what are they going to capture? What are they looking at? So, you know, everything I know about photography is what I taught them in three simple questions. And I'll share with you real briefly. Their mission, I said, is really ask yourself, what are you looking at? Here you have this sort of toy, this thing, you're playful, play away. It's digital. You don't have to change the film. Go, go, go. What are you looking at? What's the first question? If I said if you can't answer that, I don't know what you're gonna do. You have to say, Well, well, I'm looking at my friend because he's making a face. Okay. As simple as that. But having that as a a way to navigate, the second thing is, where are you standing? Now think about it. 30 years in the field, this is everything I've learned in three questions. Where am I standing means if I'm shooting you, Jared? Do I have permission? Are you hiding from me? Are you a self-conscious? Or are you collaborating with me and it's like intimate? Why? Because I can get close to you because you trust me. All those things. And the third thing is when. When when do you actually capture that thing? Are you sensitive enough to notice when there's something happening or an unguarded moment where people usually don't see? And that's the when. So those three things is what I presented and the same thing applies. Take what's useful, leave the rest. And they picked all three of those things up. And then the beauty of that whole process is to say, well, what's the fourth question? The fourth question is, what does it mean? We look at the pictures together and this, it's like gifts being unwrapped on Christmas. Why? Because if you've been a good boy or girl, you don't get a lump of coal, you get a gift, a real present. So in the g the editing process in post-production, these images started to emerge and you could see all three of those questions were being answered thoughtfully. So the thoughtfulness in the process became part of their process and craft. speaker-0: Amazing, amazing. Was there a moment or several when you took the images and brought to life that you you just saw a different light from the kids' eyes or like a pride of like, wow, I did this. speaker-1: Yeah, and you remember most of these kids are not used to hanging out with Wachichu because Wachichu's the Lakota name for white folks, right? So this my being present was just to be neutral, right? Not doing demanding, just offering. And and over time and over experience, you know, I'm a pretty good people person. I love people and And if that shows, because there's relentless kindness, right? It might be something that in their base instinct they have moved away from a wariness of the white guy in our situation to he's just as playful as us, right? And that's when things change. That that's where creativity starts to flow. And especially in the I wouldn't call it a compliment, but in the reinforcement of some doing something well. Like here's an image that emerged and everybody's excited. And so the kid who took that is suddenly getting all this feedback of he did something really cool. that's that's joy. And you know, there's this thing about charisma. I heard it described as competence plus warmth. And I had to think about that. It's I think that works. Why? Because yeah, I'm bringing skill sets to them and gifting it in a way it's like take take what you want. And when they picked that up and started running with it, they too started to build competence, which leads to confidence. And the joy of it, it's yeah, I think it's all wrapped up in warmth. So these kids became more charismatic as they started to flourish with it. So the reward for me was more than just a collection of images as a body of work, which was the big idea in the first place to tell stories visually, but to see them all kind of blossom. It's the any teacher worth their weight in salt. wants worthy students to just emerge from their shelves and become less inhibited and find their voice. That's that's where it's at. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's fantastic. I can only imagine the joy you felt and the pride you felt being a part of that journey. speaker-1: Yeah, it was it was an honor to be part of it. And you reminded me, Jared, of the medicine man when he was opening all the events with prayer and ritual, and he'd do it in Lakota and translate for us, and and on the last day he said, you know, we're all aware of the five senses. And I was like, this is gonna be good. He goes, Few are aware of the sixth. And I'm like, the feminine, the intuition. He goes, but very few know the seventh. And I'm like, I lean forward in my seat. He's gonna talk about the seventh cents? I've never heard that. And he said what you said. He said exactly what you said. He says, it's in the storytelling, it's in the teaching. Keeping the wisdom to ourself stops the inheritance. We must take it forward and share that. And I was like, okay, that's that's Jared. That's exactly what you're doing. speaker-0: thank you. You know what I I I I just pondered when when you're talking there is generational trauma, kind of what we referred to earlier, right? The the trauma that's passed down through the generations that maybe we didn't even experience, we inherited it. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Also on a counter that what you did was create potentially a generational success. And a generational sense of wait, I'm worthy of doing something new and trying something, and here's the product I created to where now their children can carry that as well, right? And I think sometimes we we forget. We forget as adults, we focus on the trauma side. But what am I doing today that empowers somebody to also have an alternative to choose from? speaker-1: Yeah, I'm gonna call that disruption at at its best. think about your favorite teachers. Well, you know what? The first day of class in any semester, I asked the whole class, how many people here had great teachers in their past? And almost almost every hand goes up. It's really rare when somebody doesn't raise their hand and we pay attention to that. Like, what happened? But almost everybody does. And when they do, I start asking, I said, What were they doing that was special? And you think about yours, your favorite teacher or teachers. If you were lucky enough to have a few great Teachers. And the words start coming up and we write them down as fast as they come. It's like, they were kind, they were generous. They were, you know, and then somebody says encouragement. And it's like, there it is. This this word is so important. And all these qualities, right, of great teachers, when we elicit them and sort of invoke that spirit, they resonate in the room. Why? Because it's a reminder to me. I'm not just content to be a good teacher. I'm striving to repay the debt. of kindness that my great teachers did by taking an interest in me before I had a body of work to showcase any evidence of a talent. I had nothing. There was no portfolio. And yet some of these teachers saw something in me. And maybe that's their genius. They see something in themselves. I don't know how it that way is, but the generosity of spirit to invest, right? there's a great line in Marion Williamson w about, you know, Great teachers, just being in their presence liberates. Right. So if you're describing sort of the disruption of continuing to do the same thing out of dysfunction, right? I'm inheriting something poor and that's just the way it is. And then something changes and shifts. That shift doesn't have to be radical. It's a slight shift, but it's a shift. If it's two degrees and I start traveling, over time that becomes a great gap, even just a two degree shift, and You know, if you've been on map and compass, you you can get pretty lost with a two-degree shift, right? So I I really respect what you're saying. And and if I could just define it as disruption, then we're doing something that is a good kind of disruption. speaker-0: You know what I loved about that, Tony, is I do that same exercise with teams I get to work with, leadership teams. And what I asked them is tell me a coach, a teacher, a professor, a supervisor that stood out in your life and why they stood out. And we throw up the same kind of words, caring, encouraging, accountability, saw something in me I didn't see. Very seldom does anybody tell me they knew more about the subject than anybody else in the world. speaker-1: Right? speaker-0: Usually, like you said, it's the environment they create to where you feel valued and you feel important, which isn't that hard to do for like our community. You can choose I I I I'm a simple guy, Tony. I'm super simple here. To me it comes down to this I choose to care about the people around me, period. speaker-1: Yeah, well that's the choice, right? It's a deliberate choice to move away being indifferent, for example, or self-absorbed to the point where nothing else matters except, you know, the limits of my own body and mind, right? So making that choice is demonstrated through your actions, right? Your actions become your deeds, your deeds become your character. So therein lies the rub. You've you've made a conscious choice and and then it just radiates and and and the good kind of radiation. You're affecting other people. Like like a simple act of kindness helps two people. The person doing the act and the person receiving the act both have neurologies. the neurologist will tell you about a cascade of biochemistry and this endorphins and all this wonderful stuff. And then there's the third person just witnessing that act of kindness. And whether it's random or not, the third person can be moved to have that same cascade of feel good chemistry. So what you're doing resonates even when you're unaware that someone else is watching and witnessing what Jared's doing. speaker-0: Yeah, what any what any of our community can choose to do. Like we can choose to do it today. It doesn't require any extra education, no online courses. I don't need to hire a guru. I literally just gotta go, wait, I'm gonna care about the people right around me. Maybe that's the clerk at the grocery store, maybe it's the barista. speaker-1: Well, you know, it cultivates through through self love. If you don't respect yourself, there's there's the punchline. The one student who didn't raise his hand, yeah, of course I I came around to him and I said, So I'm interested. You you've had no great teachers. Is that right? He says, Yeah, nobody. And I'm like, Wow. I said, So, why not? You know, aren't you busy chasing them down, like asking around who's the best teacher? And isn't that part he's like, No, I don't respect anybody, he said. And he and there's it's out. The cat's out of the bag. And you remember that expression comes from the tall masted ships where they were going to punish somebody for an infraction. It was the cat in nine tails. This cat's out of the bag. And I'm like, wow, you don't respect anybody. And of course, I couldn't help myself. I said, Does that include you? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And if it starts with us first, either we've got this self-love, self-care, self-worth, self-esteem, our cups got to flow over in order to share it. And and I think that's a perfect metaphor for this investment in others, is that we've invested in, you know, ourselves as well. speaker-0: Tony, my friend, I think I could talk with you all day, but respect for your time. I appreciate you. Where can our audience connect with you further to learn about all the amazing stuff you're doing? speaker-1: Well I'm on Instagram and you can find me. It's it's the radical sign at Dizzy No D I Z I N O. Like are you dizzy? No. and then direct message me with anything you want. that's probably a pretty direct way or Facebook, whatever platform you're on, LinkedIn. speaker-0: Tony, I got one last question for you, my friend, is at this stage of life where you sit today, what does a life well lived mean to you? speaker-1: Such a great question. making the most of what you have where you are with what you got. regarding the people you love in your life while you have them. And Striving to to be of service, I think, is probably in all caps because that's a reward that you know, the gurus say, if you're talking about gurus, they say, you can't take anything with you, right? So no matter your wealth or your material, they have a caveat. Except, you can't take anything with you except the acts of kindness you do for others. Now that I could live with. speaker-0: Hm, I love it. Tony, my friend, I appreciate you so much. I want to thank you for having the courage to lean into the work you're doing, to put the voice behind people that didn't necessarily have a voice through your storytelling and just being that light the world needs. Keep it shining, my friend. speaker-1: Same to you. Same to you, brother. speaker-0: Hey everybody, it's Jared Hardy here. If the On Purpose podcast has sparked something in you, maybe a shift, a question, or a deeper dive, my excellence and leadership course is built to help you act upon it. This isn't just about leading others. It's about leading yourself with intention, resilience, and clarity. Whether you're an individual chasing growth or a team ready to level up, I offer custom coaching and speaking engagements to meet you where you are. Visit TeamHarty.net and let's grow with purpose. And remember, team, life is far too short to live any other way than on purpose. We will see you all again next week.