Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / Calm Power in The Workplace: Strategy vs. Emotion

Transcript

Calm Power in The Workplace: Strategy vs. Emotion · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:00
  Camilla: Are you calm when you're being challenged?
• 0:04
  Camilla: Are you then really calm?
• 0:05
  Camilla: Be honest with yourself when it's nice weather and when it's stormy weather.
• 0:15
  Mary: For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek.
• 0:22
  Mary: But in nature, violets are anything but weak.
• 0:25
  Mary: They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem.
• 0:28
  Mary: Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult.
• 0:37
  Mary: It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature.
• 0:43
  Mary: If you're ready to stop shrinking and start thriving, you're in the right place.
• 0:47
  Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:52
  Mary: As women, we have many situations that build leadership skills.
• 0:56
  Mary: Whether we're a mom, working in a volunteer capacity, or sitting in a C-suite.
• 1:01
  Mary: We just don't always make the connection.
• 1:04
  Mary: In my early career, being a leader was often fraught for me.
• 1:08
  Mary: While some aspects were natural, the relationships with staff seemed to be the thing that I struggled with the most, which is weird because I'm a therapist.
• 1:17
  Mary: Anyway, one of the toughest leadership roles came my way after I was at an institution for less than a year.
• 1:23
  Mary: I became the supervisor of my colleagues who were there years longer than I was.
• 1:28
  Mary: I don't feel like I micromanaged because honestly, I detest that.
• 1:32
  Mary: But they had all functioned without a leader previously.
• 1:36
  Mary: The position I filled was new.
• 1:38
  Mary: So perhaps many of them just wanted to do their jobs and get the hell out of there at the end of the day.
• 1:43
  Mary: And while I fully recognized that they were occasionally bitching about me in the back hallway, I was devastated when one of my staff gave me a scathing review.
• 1:52
  Mary: In spite of the fact that she had a huge streak of disdain for anyone who tried to put expectations on her, it honestly broke my heart.
• 2:00
  Mary: That was the first experience that changed the way I viewed leadership.
• 2:04
  Mary: Another hard lesson came while I was doing an interim role immediately after COVID restrictions were lifted and we were back on campus.
• 2:11
  Mary: My beloved supervisor had retired at this crucial time and I stepped in temporarily as director.
• 2:16
  Mary: Again, I shifted from a colleague to a boss overnight.
• 2:20
  Mary: Someone who I had tried to support as a colleague prior to this became someone I didn't recognize when I took the leadership position.
• 2:27
  Mary: She became defiant and actually insubordinate.
• 2:30
  Mary: To this day, that feels unresolved.
• 2:33
  Mary: I have no idea what my part was in the change that occurred because she refused to speak to me.
• 2:38
  Mary: Those two experiences changed me.
• 2:41
  Mary: I became more guarded and definitely more jaded because I was naive to think that when I became their boss, the relationship wouldn't change.
• 2:49
  Mary: I did a disservice both to them and myself by not getting help to coach me through those transitions.
• 2:54
  Mary: Okay, anyway, I truly believe that women make tremendous leaders, yet we need to be aware of social scripts and limiting narratives that impact our decisions and the way we show up.
• 3:04
  Mary: I think the strengths women bring to leadership roles position them naturally to be effective.
• 3:10
  Mary: But the face of leadership is, quite frankly, largely male-informed.
• 3:14
  Mary: So I'm quite excited to talk to my guest today because her website actually encourages women to quote, lead without shrinking.
• 3:22
  Mary: What could be more aligned with this podcast?
• 3:25
  Mary: Camilla Cowberg is known as the go-to mentor for high-performing women leaders who are done over giving and ready to lead with calm power.
• 3:34
  Mary: A former Fortune 500 transformation leader, she speaks with authority on emotional resilience, trusted advisor positioning, and nervous system aware leadership.
• 3:44
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violet's Camilla.
• 3:47
  Mary: I'm so excited.
• 3:48
  Mary: Thank you for having me, Mary.
• 3:50
  Mary: You're welcome.
• 3:51
  Mary: She's coming to us from Denmark, which is so cool.
• 3:54
  Mary: Okay.
• 3:55
  Mary: So I often start by asking my guests to talk about flashbulb moments.
• 4:00
  Mary: And what I mean by that, it's those moments when you look back over your life that it's like a flashball.
• 4:05
  Mary: You took it's like it stands out in relief as a point that was pivotal.
• 4:10
  Mary: So you have lived at two extremes, right?
• 4:13
  Mary: You've had a lot of corporate success, but you also talk about hitting rock bottom and needing to come back from that.
• 4:20
  Mary: So, how did those experiences shape you?
• 4:23
  Mary: Tell us a little about that.
• 4:25
  Camilla: One of those situations that shaped me and has shaped what I do was that, and it really relates to your intro, really beautiful intro, is that I was uh was leading a group of consultants, and I was a consultant as well, and I agreed with a client how to report, how to do this piece of work.
• 4:49
  Camilla: It was an important transformation project I was um I was leading.
• 4:53
  Camilla: And um then suddenly there was a member of the team that didn't want to report the way that we haven't agreed to report so to create transparency, and I got run over in that meeting, and I was so shocked that someone could be like so aggressive at me and not wanting to follow or comply to how to report.
• 5:28
  Camilla: I was shocked, I didn't have the tools at that point in time.
• 5:32
  Camilla: Luckily, I was working with a coach and it's just like crying out.
• 5:36
  Camilla: I was so surprised that you could actually behave like that at work, especially also than your consultant, that you're not even a member of the proper permanent member of the team.
• 5:49
  Camilla: But that moment that shaped what I do today is that we get this is so deep for me.
• 6:00
  Camilla: We get to learn to reset our nervous system, where whatever's going out in the outer world and know it's nothing to do with me, and read the room, and on really on the I have the questions, like like I don't know what we're saying, it's like so uh on the forefront of our on our tongue like you are angry right now.
• 6:26
  Camilla: What is going on?
• 6:28
  Camilla: I'm curious, but I didn't have the tools at that point in time.
• 6:32
  Camilla: I I I was not able to reset my nervous system in that moment, but that was one of the moments that really shaped my curiosity and my eager to understand what um emotional intelligence is, um nervous systems, what is that all about?
• 6:52
  Camilla: Um, and also helping other people become more intelligent with the nervous system, because I truly believe that that is a hidden key to success.
• 7:06
  Mary: So this is a really different approach than I have ever heard.
• 7:10
  Mary: And it's so, again, I'm gonna say it's so female informed, which I love, because I think when we have that body reaction to something unexpected, first of all, we're in a position, if we're in a position where we're leading, that can naturally feel uncomfortable because of all the society messages we get about being, you know, being um kind and smiling and keeping the peace.
• 7:35
  Mary: And sometimes when you're a leader, you have to say things people don't like.
• 7:39
  Mary: So when you have a reaction like you're talking about, and I don't know, can I ask, was that a female that reacted that way?
• 7:45
  Mary: Two men.
• 7:46
  Mary: Two men.
• 7:47
  Mary: Okay.
• 7:48
  Mary: So that's a different dynamic because I've had a lot of experience with women reacting negatively, and I think that could be a whole podcast in itself.
• 7:58
  Mary: But you know, obviously there's a dynamic there, right?
• 8:01
  Mary: That we have this idea that there's a gender that is the one that should be in charge and should be telling people what to do.
• 8:09
  Mary: And then we get that pushback.
• 8:11
  Mary: And it's, I think, when that happens and we react with that body feeling of stress that to be able to take a minute and think, okay, I gotta address this nervous system.
• 8:25
  Mary: I don't think that's the first thing we think, right?
• 8:27
  Mary: The first thing we think is, what am I gonna do?
• 8:29
  Mary: What am I gonna say?
• 8:31
  Mary: Yeah.
• 8:32
  Camilla: And you know, I didn't even think about that.
• 8:34
  Camilla: I was like so surprised that no that that individual didn't want to track the way that we agreed with a client that this is how we want to have transparency when it comes to dynamics, it it could also be a woman, but they act real out of fear, they act because they don't like control.
• 8:58
  Camilla: Well, I could I I could trigger something in that person, and uh oftentimes I've been in so many different meetings where I call both kings and queens, and the more we understand why that soul, I'll be curious about why that soul is reacting the way it does, then I get curious about that energy, that ideas that they are forming.
• 9:22
  Camilla: Why are you so I don't want to say this word right now, but why are you so triggered by by by by this?
• 9:30
  Camilla: Tell me, but I didn't have the language for that.
• 9:33
  Camilla: So I worked so deep in my own limiting beliefs, I worked so deep about mother wounds, like that got me to a whole new level of human psychology, but also then we got into my own personal journey, but all that ended up saying I'm not the only one who does not have the tools, and I seem that I'm one of the vessels to communicate and help other women not lose the power when they're in a room with toxic people, but or people who are come from a lower self, and I want to help them give them the tools so they don't end up where I was.
• 10:16
  Mary: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Mary: Okay, so I want to stick a pin in that because one of the things that I love about doing this show is I can help illustrate that women sometimes really struggle to get where they are.
• 10:29
  Mary: Because I think we have sometimes this idea that success is linear, that when we see a woman doing well, she's always done well.
• 10:40
  Mary: There were no speed bumps or failures or things like you're talking about.
• 10:46
  Mary: So you started your career in a place of sort of a really corporate kind of high-level position or positions.
• 10:56
  Mary: So, can you talk a little about the transition from that?
• 11:00
  Mary: What happened that got you to doing this work you do now?
• 11:05
  Camilla: Oh, yeah, I love that.
• 11:06
  Camilla: I applied for a job and I was like overqualified, but at that point in time, we had a and a sec who was living in Denmark, and she saw my potential.
• 11:17
  Camilla: So that got me, she created a job for me, and then that was my entry to BP headquarters in London.
• 11:25
  Camilla: So I've been working out of London for seven, eight years, and then I went on to Shell and then IBM.
• 11:31
  Camilla: And everything that I did in BP was before we called it change management.
• 11:38
  Camilla: I just had a really interesting strong interest in human psychology and communication and the friction.
• 11:44
  Camilla: Why don't we want to follow the headquarters?
• 11:47
  Camilla: The link from BP, Shell and IBM to what I do now, across, I don't know, is that 13, 15 years?
• 11:57
  Camilla: I always served the top.
• 11:59
  Camilla: And I oftentimes was a trusted advisor to a client in sec in IBM, bridging between the client and IBM, spotting what he couldn't spot in the moment.
• 12:13
  Camilla: When I left the corporate world, and people said like 10 years before then, go go solo, go entrepreneurial.
• 12:22
  Camilla: Okay, how do we do that?
• 12:23
  Camilla: There's a lot of fear in that.
• 12:24
  Camilla: But that Mary was the moment where I realized about having cheerleaders and having no cheerleaders.
• 12:33
  Camilla: And I had no cheerleaders when I was on my own.
• 12:36
  Camilla: And I suddenly had to face not only being my best coach, but also what did everyone else see in me?
• 12:45
  Camilla: And that inner work somehow had this voice saying, you get to share what you have learned with other women.
• 12:54
  Camilla: So that has been my passion, I think, my calling, and also coupled in with my challenging personal life where I was manifesting a relationship because I didn't believe in myself, didn't love myself, ending up in that high conflict divorce.
• 13:13
  Camilla: It's going on on year seven, it's still going on.
• 13:16
  Camilla: He opened a new court case, but all this to say I had to build myself strong with character, and I'm not bending again.
• 13:26
  Camilla: I've been bending, I've been like the rock bottom.
• 13:29
  Camilla: It just comes so naturally to say I want to help other women.
• 13:33
  Camilla: If they don't have the opportunity to work with a coach or not asking the questions that I did, I lift it, and I feel it's my duty to share where I can share, like on your podcast.
• 13:45
  Camilla: What I know has shifted my life, and it's not about taking pills, but I really upgraded my belief system, I upgraded my identity.
• 13:57
  Mary: Well, you talk about something that I hear a lot.
• 14:00
  Mary: So I started my career working with students and I worked in higher ed, and then now I have a private practice where I work with women in midlife.
• 14:09
  Mary: And when I work with women that are in career positions where they're very successful and they're respected and they have a lot of confidence.
• 14:23
  Mary: Often, if we can peek behind the curtain of their personal life, they are an entirely different woman in that relationship.
• 14:32
  Mary: And somehow I think that shows up a little bit in the career field.
• 14:38
  Mary: And you also talked about, I think another thing that's important is when you decide to do something on your own, it's really lonely.
• 14:47
  Mary: And the things that echo in your brain are your own negative messages, and you have to overcome that.
• 14:53
  Camilla: The reason why I had to overcome it was because of my daughter.
• 14:58
  Camilla: I had to show this is emotional.
• 15:03
  Camilla: I'm still I have heal, but still when because it has been like really rough.
• 15:08
  Camilla: Like out on the out, this is really interesting what you talk about because on the outside, on externally, I had everything.
• 15:16
  Camilla: I walled that phase for 15 years, nobody knew except two people, and they were not in my in my family what was really going on, how much I suffered.
• 15:29
  Camilla: But then, because my daughter had really panic attack when she was six, a lot of anxiety.
• 15:38
  Camilla: I had to understand anxiety, fear for her dad, everything's going on.
• 15:45
  Camilla: And she we were calling the children's phone in the evening, and she's had that anxiety since we were five, and banging her head in the wall, nobody understood what was going on.
• 15:56
  Camilla: I just I had a responsibility to help that soul find inner peace.
• 16:02
  Camilla: And discussing then with lawyers, being in court, discussing with the judges that if I don't over-regulate, I will never be able to help my daughter.
• 16:12
  Camilla: I had no other choice but to say, I damn it, I get to learn how what is this all about, and then being able to share them the means in the same time, that kind of fueled my energy.
• 16:25
  Camilla: And then you know, in your own practice, and when she responds, hey, you look really happy today, mama.
• 16:31
  Camilla: I did something I really said, and right, so I know that all this is also to help my daughter reset.
• 16:40
  Camilla: Yeah.
• 16:42
  Mary: Yeah.
• 16:42
  Mary: So a lot of personal struggle went into that decision to say, I have to get things together, right?
• 16:49
  Mary: I have to make changes.
• 16:51
  Mary: So to then come back around to thinking about women leaders.
• 16:55
  Mary: So when we talk about social scripts, I always try to define it, even though I talk about it a lot, but it's these messages that we get growing up about how we're supposed to act and be.
• 17:06
  Mary: So when you think about the women that you've worked with, or even your own experience, what are some of those limiting narratives or social scripts that you see come up, the beliefs that women have that are play just false, but they're functioning from that idea and it's limiting them in their career?
• 17:26
  Camilla: Oh, I love that question.
• 17:28
  Camilla: So, one of some of my own uh social scripts that limited me was sabotaging how I want to do life, is mirroring how my mom did it.
• 17:38
  Camilla: Working hard.
• 17:40
  Camilla: Um I think that is a movement right now.
• 17:44
  Camilla: So you it's not about working hard to have more money and have more happiness.
• 17:48
  Camilla: It's actually we're in the area of wisdom, and how can we share that?
• 17:52
  Camilla: Um, that's definitely been um part of my old blueprints, a social script.
• 17:58
  Camilla: Another script has also been, I call it group pressure.
• 18:03
  Camilla: There's uh been a lot of group pressure that got me to conform how other people wanted me to be rather than allowing myself to be who I am, and that group pressure that is one of the patterns I see in the work that I do.
• 18:20
  Camilla: But another social script is women know your stuff and don't ask any questions if you don't have the answers.
• 18:30
  Camilla: Another script is also don't for provoke them, just be nice.
• 18:37
  Camilla: Oh right, but that does not work if we're in C-suite.
• 18:43
  Camilla: It doesn't work if you want to land your next job and I'm teaching and I'm practicing and I'm rehearsing my clients.
• 18:50
  Camilla: What questions do you want to ask?
• 18:52
  Camilla: In Denmark, we go to work and on Friday it's social time.
• 18:56
  Camilla: Um I've I spend most of my career in UK.
• 19:00
  Camilla: On Fridays, it's not social time for me.
• 19:02
  Camilla: I go in and deliver and I go home again, right?
• 19:05
  Camilla: So I ask my clients, are you in that room to serve, or are you in that room to please?
• 19:15
  Camilla: And that's another social construct that we get to break through, is that allowing ourselves to ask questions from authenticity?
• 19:24
  Mary: Yeah.
• 19:25
  Mary: So you brought up something that I really love, and that is women think I would say it's more women than men, women think that, especially as a leader, don't ask a question unless you know the answer.
• 19:38
  Mary: Well, how are you supposed to learn anything or get the true climate of the organization or how an employee is feeling without curiosity?
• 19:46
  Mary: You talk about curiosity a lot, right?
• 19:49
  Camilla: Yeah, but it's a social construct.
• 19:51
  Camilla: I call it a blueprint.
• 19:52
  Camilla: And we come from, I'm the mid-50s, we come from my parents, I grew up in the world, World War II.
• 19:58
  Camilla: Like that's the times were different.
• 20:00
  Camilla: The relationship with authority was different.
• 20:04
  Camilla: But we are now in a time where we don't have to be bossy to ask a bold questions.
• 20:11
  Camilla: We get to be curious to really be in that room to serve, and that requires us to be curious about the person in front of us, but also allow ourselves to, I don't have to have all the questions, I just have to help you get unstuck.
• 20:30
  Camilla: That is, I think a lot of I don't know where we're going right now, but I think jobs, when I started off, was a marketing coordinator and that was it, that was coordinating.
• 20:41
  Camilla: But nowadays, job has changed, the job is changing, and it's more serving, it's more helping other people, and we get to really break through our I don't say self-imposed upper limit.
• 20:58
  Mary: Yeah.
• 20:59
  Mary: Well, I want to tease apart something you said because here's where I think women can get confused.
• 21:04
  Mary: You're using the word serve, but you're also saying, do you want to serve or do you want to please?
• 21:09
  Mary: And I think sometimes women think that is the same thing.
• 21:13
  Mary: So can you tease that apart a little bit?
• 21:16
  Mary: What is pleasing behavior versus what is serving behavior?
• 21:21
  Camilla: Oh, I love that.
• 21:23
  Camilla: Pleasing and serving.
• 21:25
  unknown: Okay.
• 21:26
  Camilla: When we go into a meeting, let's just play with me, if that's okay, Mary, for a while.
• 21:31
  Camilla: Sure.
• 21:32
  Camilla: Play with me, and you can play with me as well.
• 21:35
  Camilla: But let me say, we go into a meeting, dear listener.
• 21:39
  Camilla: Are you in that room to ask some questions?
• 21:44
  Camilla: And if you get some pushback, do you surrender?
• 21:48
  Camilla: Do you pull back or do you go into that room because you have something that is so important for the other person to understand?
• 21:58
  Camilla: You're not.
• 21:59
  Camilla: Focus on the outcome, but you're really focusing on serving.
• 22:03
  Camilla: If you focus on the outcome, you may end up pleasing and also withdrawing because you don't allow yourself to be in that room to truly serve, but s being of service service for servant leadership.
• 22:20
  Camilla: It's really to understand what is that you want, Mary, what is that you really, really want, and take yourself out of the equation.
• 22:30
  Camilla: Very different personas, and that persona identity you pick before you enter the room.
• 22:41
  Mary: Yeah, because it's believing that you have a valuable role to play.
• 22:45
  Mary: And that is, I think, does go back to social scripts.
• 22:48
  Mary: When we think about we're supposed to nod and smile and go along with it to step out and I'll say challenge, and I don't know that it's always aggressive, but when we question someone or say, can you clarify that?
• 23:02
  Mary: Or here's another way of thinking, that's not always received well.
• 23:06
  Mary: But that doesn't mean it's you shouldn't do it.
• 23:09
  Mary: In fact, you should do it probably more if it's not received well, because let's sort of shake up the you know structure a little bit, right?
• 23:19
  Camilla: Yeah, this is really interesting because if it's not perceived well, who is to job if it's not perceived well, then if that is not perceived well from the other person, be curious about why he's triggered.
• 23:33
  Camilla: And it reminds me of a client say because that's another nuance here, is that when we go in and we challenge, we challenge with love.
• 23:43
  Camilla: We challenge because we see that you may be blocking, or I'm curious about why you have that opinion, but we're not going in as bossy, because that is a runway, right?
• 23:57
  Camilla: So that's also a nuance of being authentic, nuance of being of service is not to be right, that's a pleasing because of a pleasing is that so driven on the how, and then if that then pleaser, then oftentimes, at least what I hear is that then if the other person that also that comes in the hierarchy of the pleaser, because the pleaser is not at the same level, right?
• 24:28
  Camilla: And then even though you want to be right and you want to show that you can perform, but then if the person with a higher title says we do this instead, then you say, Okay, and then you withdraw, even though you think that what I'm about to suggest is better.
• 24:47
  Camilla: But if you withdraw, are you really doing your job?
• 24:51
  Camilla: Exactly.
• 24:53
  Mary: Yeah, and you just opened up the next, you gave me perfect segue into this next thing because you say the future of leadership isn't strategic, it's emotional.
• 25:03
  Mary: And I think women often are told, emotion is weak, don't show emotion at work.
• 25:10
  Mary: And so we can understand, I think maybe misunderstand what you mean by that.
• 25:15
  Mary: But here's what I believe that our emotion is one of our strengths in leadership.
• 25:22
  Mary: So can you explain when you say that, when you say the future of leadership isn't strategic, it's emotional.
• 25:28
  Mary: What do you mean by that?
• 25:30
  Camilla: Yeah.
• 25:30
  Camilla: So when I say the future of leadership isn't strategic, but emotional, in in my world, strategic, we come from head, emotional, we come from heart.
• 25:43
  Camilla: And it's really good seguing into what we just talked about, because then we can tie that all back.
• 25:49
  Camilla: What I shared in the beginning of our conversation, if I was more emotional intelligent, that's emotional.
• 25:57
  Camilla: Then I would be curious about what is going on in the room, what was going on in that person, in that body.
• 26:04
  Camilla: That's emotions.
• 26:07
  Camilla: And everything is emotional.
• 26:09
  Camilla: Right now we're having conversations that energy is traveling back and forth, right?
• 26:13
  Camilla: What is that emotional about?
• 26:15
  Camilla: In my world, I want to achieve greater results, I want to accomplish more, I want to reach more people, but I also want to have more time.
• 26:24
  Camilla: How do we do that?
• 26:25
  Camilla: Right?
• 26:26
  Camilla: That's also emotional, getting out of our own head and really curious about what is that fear?
• 26:31
  Camilla: Fear is also emotional, right?
• 26:33
  Camilla: That's all that's so much emotion that we haven't been taught in school.
• 26:36
  Camilla: But when we understand what emotions are, then do you why do you procrastinate?
• 26:42
  Camilla: That is also an emotion.
• 26:43
  Camilla: And then sequing into don't show your emotions at work.
• 26:49
  Camilla: Because I just want to double down on that.
• 26:52
  Camilla: We get to own our own emotions, and that's sometimes where people go wrong, is that we can never blame other people for why we feel that we feel you choose to feel those emotions, and that is a green flag for you that you have something to heal.
• 27:09
  Camilla: If you're ready to heal that, but you show up, you choose every single second of your working hours how you want to show up.
• 27:20
  Camilla: And that's again emotions, or being an emotional human being and reading yourself and owning that right now, Mary, I feel triggered, but I know it's on me, right?
• 27:32
  Camilla: It's not your question, right?
• 27:34
  Camilla: Right?
• 27:35
  Camilla: But it goes on me.
• 27:36
  Camilla: So at work, okay, right now, and I did say it sometimes, right now, I feel triggered.
• 27:41
  Camilla: Let me just reset because when I feel my emotions, I am no longer present, I'm in my body, and the more we become aware of that superpower of reading our emotions and resetting in the moment, then we come back and we can come back stronger.
• 28:01
  Camilla: If not, we have already given our power away.
• 28:07
  Mary: And I think in needing to do that reset, we need to park shame.
• 28:12
  Mary: We need to park that feeling of like, oh, why did I do that?
• 28:15
  Mary: I shouldn't have done that.
• 28:16
  Mary: That's so weak.
• 28:18
  Mary: Because I mean, it comes from somewhere, right?
• 28:20
  Mary: I mean, we have our triggers or our reactions based in some history.
• 28:25
  Mary: And I think being able to do what you're saying without then that, I call it the inner gremlin sometimes, that that little guy inside or that little woman inside that's like chiding us for why did you do that?
• 28:40
  Mary: I can't believe you did that.
• 28:41
  Mary: That is energy that we can't afford to spend because it goes nowhere.
• 28:45
  Mary: We just need to do the reset and then move forward.
• 28:48
  Camilla: Absolutely.
• 28:49
  Camilla: But so so we get to be our best cheerleader.
• 28:53
  Camilla: And when you talk about energy, energy travels.
• 28:57
  Camilla: And I do a lot of energy work right now because I'm so curious about what we are manifesting into our life.
• 29:06
  Camilla: And if we tell ourselves negative stories, that goes, you know, that it goes straight to your subconscious, and then you start to sing that song even more.
• 29:18
  Camilla: So we don't want to do that as shame, then work through that shame, heal whatever needs to be healed.
• 29:24
  Camilla: I don't think we can pack because then we don't heal it.
• 29:28
  Camilla: I think whenever it comes up, it's time to deal with that in a constructive uh way so that it works for us and not against us.
• 29:39
  Mary: Because it's gonna be a barrier, I think, in any relationship at some level.
• 29:43
  Mary: Whatever's triggered in one relationship, whether it's work or home or a friendship, is going to come up somehow in another one.
• 29:51
  Mary: So I really, really love that a large part of your work is doing this emotional regulation and teaching stillness and awareness.
• 30:01
  Mary: So I want to circle back to that story you told when you were sitting there and you had basically a defiant response.
• 30:08
  Mary: And you're, I can almost feel that like when you talk about it, it sort of makes me anxious because I can imagine that you were just like, What is happening right now?
• 30:18
  Mary: So, being the person you are now, let's say you walked into a room as a consultant, that happened.
• 30:25
  Mary: Tell us with what you know now, how would you respond internally and externally to that?
• 30:31
  Mary: Oh, I love that.
• 30:32
  Mary: Yeah, okay.
• 30:33
  Mary: Very different, Camilla.
• 30:37
  Camilla: This is good.
• 30:38
  Camilla: So, okay.
• 30:40
  Camilla: First, I would feel okay, what is going on?
• 30:43
  Camilla: Because that you cannot not feel that.
• 30:45
  Camilla: You you just feel that someone is like really attacking you, and then I would sit still and say, All right, there's two things going on right now.
• 30:56
  Camilla: I I can feel sensations in my body, like you are challenging me, but I also feel that you are being challenged by this decision.
• 31:11
  Camilla: Tell me more, and I would just tell me what is it about this way of operating that makes you decide that you're not gonna follow the flow.
• 31:28
  Camilla: What is it in it that's so triggering you?
• 31:32
  Camilla: I want to be like super curious about that, and I would then because in this situation, he would probably always win, right?
• 31:40
  Camilla: He wanted to win.
• 31:41
  Camilla: Okay, right now I feel that you feel your feelings, and this is a very inconstructive conversation.
• 31:50
  Camilla: Let's pack and let's meet tomorrow.
• 31:53
  Camilla: And I would actually pack my things and I would say see you tomorrow, and I would leave because I will leave with dignity and I will leave with pride, and I would remember to carry myself, and then I would come into the next morning and say, Okay, tell me what is going on, and then let's see how that flows, uh, how that flows.
• 32:14
  Camilla: Yeah, but I didn't have those tools um at that point in more at that moment in time, not at all.
• 32:22
  Mary: Well, that's a tough situation because I think that resistance, you know, we we often look at the world through our own lens.
• 32:30
  Mary: You would never do that, right?
• 32:32
  Mary: So when somebody else does it, it's like, wow, I'm I think we tend to think that must have been something I did, but it's not.
• 32:40
  Mary: That reaction is about that person.
• 32:42
  Mary: And so that's the other part that I want people to hear that when you leave that room and you know, I gotta come back here tomorrow, the negative self-talk cannot follow you home that night because that is not about your ability as a consultant, a leader, an employee, whatever it is, a reaction that strong is about the other person.
• 33:02
  Mary: And so I think being able to keep that um that sense that there was nothing wrong with what I said.
• 33:10
  Mary: I'm trying to get information, I'm trying to help.
• 33:13
  Mary: And the other part of that, what you said, so there's a concept in therapy called immediacy.
• 33:18
  Mary: And what that means is you're addressing what is happening in the moment.
• 33:23
  Mary: You're not talking about information, you're shifting to let me talk about what's just happened in this room in between us as people.
• 33:31
  Mary: And it's not about what somebody said as much as the emotion they're expressing, the resistance.
• 33:38
  Mary: And so immediacy is something that can be translated into any situation.
• 33:43
  Mary: And it's also can make you feel safer because you don't have to figure out what do I do or say, you address what you feel and what you're experiencing coming from that other person.
• 33:54
  Mary: And it's not it's not to put them back on their heels as much as let's find a way to connect because I want to understand what's happening here before we can move forward.
• 34:05
  Mary: So I think that is so powerful.
• 34:07
  Camilla: Oh, it is.
• 34:08
  Camilla: And I was thinking I probably was a bit insecure about this meeting because I I knew that he has called in his manager.
• 34:18
  Camilla: So, like suddenly, two men and me are like, we're just talking about like reporting to a client.
• 34:23
  Camilla: We were all consultants, like that is like so come on, what is integrity?
• 34:29
  Camilla: How do you really show up?
• 34:31
  Camilla: But what I would have done as well, because it's not about um saying you win and I win and you lose, it's really about calling out what's in the room.
• 34:40
  Camilla: Had I felt the atmosphere, or did I have the tools?
• 34:46
  Camilla: And I knew I could feel the atmosphere when I when I was just has been walking into the room, I would even say, right, there's something about the energy in this room right now.
• 34:58
  Camilla: What is what is going on?
• 35:00
  Camilla: I mean, it's a very deep and very important conversation is that we get to really train more women, and also women can be really nasty.
• 35:09
  Camilla: So it's not the only men who can right.
• 35:11
  Camilla: I've also been in rooms where women can be really nasty, um, but we get to run workshops and really train other amazing women and souls and how to take those conversations so that, as you say, that that conversation doesn't travel with them home.
• 35:32
  Camilla: As a men, I want to leave the room as me being the queen, I I leave with dignity, I'm not gonna lower myself and operate on a lower level energy.
• 35:43
  Camilla: That's not me anymore.
• 35:45
  Camilla: I'm gonna rise and I'm gonna show that I keep my word.
• 35:49
  Camilla: Yeah.
• 35:50
  Mary: Yeah.
• 35:51
  Mary: Okay, so let's try to pull this together with a big pretty bow on it.
• 35:56
  Mary: So if there are women listening that are thinking they want to advance their leadership skills, or they have this belief that they can be a leader or they can be a leader in a different way, but they feel like some of their own stuff is holding them back.
• 36:14
  Mary: How would you encourage them or where would you tell them to start to develop the skills, address what needs to be addressed?
• 36:24
  Camilla: A simple way.
• 36:25
  Camilla: First of all, I want to acknowledge that you want to lead a different way.
• 36:29
  Camilla: That's the first thing is that to acknowledge because there's so many people who don't think that they can lead a different way.
• 36:35
  Camilla: They think they're superstars, and that's good.
• 36:37
  Camilla: But I in my world of, I think we can always become a better version.
• 36:41
  Camilla: So acknowledge yourself for for declaring to yourself that you want to lead in a different way.
• 36:49
  Camilla: And the simple step, it sounds simple, but it does take time, is to say, okay, this is how I operate right now, this is how I operate when everything is rosy.
• 37:02
  Camilla: This is how I function when I get the pressure.
• 37:07
  Camilla: I had a client yesterday, right?
• 37:09
  Camilla: Because I'm calm.
• 37:10
  Camilla: But are you calm when you're being challenged?
• 37:15
  Camilla: Are you then really calm?
• 37:17
  Camilla: Be honest with yourself when it's nice weather and when it's stormy weather, and then do that math or the work sketch out.
• 37:26
  Camilla: How do you want to show up?
• 37:29
  Camilla: Who is that next version of you?
• 37:31
  Camilla: How do you want to show up also when you face a challenge?
• 37:35
  Camilla: Because that is a deep inner work that we all get to do.
• 37:39
  Camilla: That's why the key is not strategic, it's emotional, because we're all human beings with emotions.
• 37:46
  Camilla: And find someone who can help you be that mirror and give you the tools that you can practice.
• 37:54
  Camilla: You could go to Mary, you could go to me, but we can only give you the tools.
• 37:59
  Camilla: We cannot do the work for you.
• 38:02
  Camilla: So find someone who you trust, that's what I know.
• 38:05
  Camilla: Trust, trust, trust comes above everything else because I found all these mentors who are trusted, and I just did it.
• 38:13
  Camilla: That's how I move.
• 38:15
  Camilla: So, how are you today?
• 38:18
  Camilla: Stormy weather, rosy weather, and how do you really want to show up?
• 38:23
  Camilla: I think that's the very first step.
• 38:25
  Camilla: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Mary: And you bring up a good point about you don't have to know everything.
• 38:29
  Mary: Like I didn't know everything.
• 38:30
  Mary: I tried to be a leader without knowing things.
• 38:33
  Mary: And I so I think having a coach or just finding a mentor, asking someone that you admire, hey, could you mentor me?
• 38:40
  Mary: You know, I think taking that step to recognize and own, you can't possibly know everything.
• 38:47
  Mary: And someone else can have that information to help you.
• 38:50
  Mary: So on that note, Camilla, can you share with us what you do to help people and where we can find you?
• 38:56
  Mary: And I will link your info in my show notes.
• 38:59
  Camilla: Yeah, I'd love to.
• 39:00
  Camilla: May I just circle back to that of mentoring?
• 39:03
  Mary: Yes.
• 39:04
  Camilla: Because that is so important.
• 39:05
  Camilla: I don't think a mentor is the only thing that you want to focus on, because mentoring is more how you lead, but if you want to lead in a different way, it in my world also implies that you want to show up in a different way.
• 39:24
  Mary: Yeah, good point.
• 39:25
  Camilla: And that's the deep inner work.
• 39:27
  Camilla: And not every mentor focuses on that deep inner work because they haven't evolved into a higher version of themselves.
• 39:35
  Camilla: So they know the business stuff, but so I just don't want to double down on that mentoring.
• 39:41
  Camilla: Um how I how I help women, I help women break through their own glass ceiling.
• 39:49
  Camilla: I help women read themselves in the moment to reset themselves in the moment.
• 39:55
  Camilla: Because that's the women I work with are senior VPs, directors, C-suite, and that's a lot of friction.
• 40:03
  Camilla: Yeah.
• 40:04
  Camilla: And if and if we don't understand that friction is dynamic, then you oftentimes absorb that friction and that negative narrative.
• 40:15
  Camilla: And I help women stop absorb that dynamics, but be curious about that.
• 40:22
  Camilla: And that's about having inner peace and be curious about what is really going on, but don't absorb other people's emotions.
• 40:30
  Camilla: And um, I also help women pitch themselves to the next level.
• 40:35
  Camilla: So very different ways I help.
• 40:38
  Camilla: We have leader labs, we just launched a new Leader Lab community because sometimes we just want a safe environment where we say, right now I face this challenge with my employee, my team member, or a peer.
• 40:52
  Camilla: What is the next best move here?
• 40:55
  unknown: Yeah.
• 40:55
  Camilla: And I don't want to do strategic like you do that, but I'm going from the inside out.
• 41:00
  Camilla: So that could also be an interesting container to join.
• 41:03
  Camilla: Um, and you can find me at Camilla Kalberg, my website, very active on LinkedIn, also YouTube videos.
• 41:10
  Camilla: Yeah, so you're welcome to reach out as well and book a free strategy call to see how I potentially could help you.
• 41:17
  Camilla: I have a lot to connect.
• 41:20
  Mary: Thank you so much for being here, Camilla.
• 41:22
  Mary: This has been such a fun conversation.
• 41:24
  Mary: I appreciate being here.
• 41:26
  Mary: Thanks for having me, Mary.
• 41:27
  Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 41:30
  Mary: My first book is coming out in April.
• 41:32
  Mary: So if you enjoy this podcast, I think you will love it.
• 41:35
  Mary: So go to maryrothwell.net forward slash nature knows for the details.
• 41:40
  Mary: And while you're there, check out other episodes of No Shrinking Violets, as well as the options to book me for keynotes and staff trainings.
• 41:47
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.