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ASIO’s new secret spy powers are extraordinary · The Morning Edition

0:04
S1: Our domestic spy agency, copped a lot of criticism in
0:07
S1: December after the horrific attack on Bondi Beach for failing
0:11
S1: to prevent the attackers from committing their crime. But is
0:15
S1: the answer expanded powers. A bill passed in Parliament last
0:19
S1: week is proposing just that, forcing suspects to answer questions.
0:23
S1: Otherwise they'll face the threat of jail. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris,
0:29
S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition from The Age and
0:32
S1: the Sydney Morning Herald. Today, national security correspondent Matthew not
0:36
S1: on the brand new expanded powers of ASIO and the
0:40
S1: unlikely politicians arguing they amount to an unfair breach of
0:44
S1: our rights. It's August the 25th. Welcome, Matthew, back to
0:53
S1: the podcast.
0:54
S2: Thanks. It's great to be back.
0:55
S3: Can you tell us about this.
0:56
S1: Bill that passed in Parliament last week? It expands the
1:00
S1: compulsory questioning powers of our domestic spy agency, ASIO. So
1:04
S1: what is in this bill and why is it so controversial?
1:07
S2: Yes, I think this really went a bit under the radar.
1:10
S2: There was a lot happening in the past week of Parliament.
1:14
S2: Gambling reforms are being passed, huge changes to the NDIS.
1:19
S2: There was a lot going on, so this didn't get
1:22
S2: as much attention as I think it really deserved. This
1:26
S2: has been in the works for a little while over
1:29
S2: a year. New legislation which is expanding what's called Asio's
1:33
S2: compulsory questioning powers. Now these are, by everyone's admission, including ASIO.
1:40
S2: These are pretty extraordinary, unusual powers. They first came in
1:46
S2: after the September 11th attacks to deal with counter-terrorism. The
1:51
S2: key fact is that they allow ASIO to call you
1:55
S2: in and even detain you for questioning. You don't have
1:59
S2: to be a suspect. And crucially, you have to give
2:03
S2: answers or you don't have the right to silence that
2:06
S2: you usually would. It's quite secretive process. There are jail
2:11
S2: time of up to five years if you don't participate
2:15
S2: in this. And this bill that was before Parliament was
2:19
S2: expanding out the issues on which ASIO can use these powers.
2:24
S2: So up till now they've been able to use them
2:27
S2: for espionage, politically motivated violence and foreign interference. This expands
2:33
S2: it out across a whole range of topics. Basically everything
2:36
S2: that ASIO covers, including threats to the defence system, threats
2:41
S2: to Australia's border integrity, sabotage, communal violence. A lot of topics.
2:47
S2: So it's a big expansion. One important thing to know
2:51
S2: is that what this bill was originally going to do
2:53
S2: was to make these powers permanent, to really entrench them
2:57
S2: in law permanently. And that was that was a big
3:00
S2: deal because they've had what's been known as a sunset clause,
3:04
S2: meaning they come up for review and re legislation every
3:08
S2: few years, reflecting how unusual and extraordinary they are. The
3:14
S2: government in recent months took that out. There was a
3:16
S2: big backlash to that. But the bill with the expanded
3:20
S2: powers did go through Parliament last week.
3:23
S3: Okay. Well, tell us.
3:24
S1: About that, because for many years this bill, of course,
3:26
S1: had bipartisan support. But this time around, two Liberal senators
3:30
S1: crossed the floor to oppose the bill. So tell us
3:33
S1: about that. And I guess if that's significant.
3:35
S2: Yeah, I think it definitely is. It's significant and interesting.
3:39
S2: And we can see in the way that the vote
3:41
S2: went down for this bill, how politics is changing a
3:45
S2: little bit. A key thing to know about laws like
3:48
S2: this that deal with asio's powers and whatnot, the primary
3:52
S2: way in which they're really dealt with is through this
3:55
S2: very powerful and quite secretive offering committee known as the pjcis.
4:00
S2: But an interesting thing about it is it's only open
4:03
S2: to Liberal and coalition members, seen as something that's only
4:07
S2: for what's called parties of government. It's not open to
4:11
S2: independents or the Greens, etc. and that's the primary form
4:15
S2: in which these types of topics are dealt with. It's
4:18
S2: often quite closed door, and then they're voted on without
4:21
S2: a lot of public debate. This was interesting, this legislation, because, yes,
4:26
S2: two Liberal senators voted against it. They come from the
4:30
S2: opposite wings of the Liberal Party. One is Alex Antic,
4:33
S2: who is quite to the far right of the party,
4:36
S2: and another is Andrew McLaughlin, who is probably one of
4:39
S2: the most left leaning Liberal members. He's supported strong action
4:44
S2: on climate, very much pro multiculturalism. And one thing about him, though,
4:50
S2: is he used to be a lawyer. When he was
4:52
S2: in state parliament. He took a strong stance on issues
4:55
S2: like this, and he's been deputy president of the Senate
4:59
S2: for quite a while, which restricted his ability to vote
5:02
S2: on certain topics. So he's not in that position anymore.
5:06
S2: And he told me that he's just had concerns about
5:08
S2: these rules for a long time. These laws that are
5:11
S2: kind of often introduced as short term or emergency legislation
5:17
S2: that then gets entrenched and expanded over time. He said
5:21
S2: he thinks it just goes too far, and the balance
5:23
S2: in the whole debate and the whole legislation has gone
5:27
S2: too far towards giving power to agencies like ASIO, and
5:31
S2: there's not enough attention paid to civil liberties. And so
5:36
S2: he said, yes, he decided to vote against this, and
5:38
S2: he would expect to vote against such legislation in the future.
5:43
S3: And so, I guess, tell us, what.
5:45
S1: Other opposition is there to this bill? Like, what are
5:47
S1: the main arguments for why ASIO should absolutely not have
5:50
S1: these powers?
5:51
S2: Yes, they certainly are extraordinary powers that everyone acknowledges. They
5:56
S2: don't really fit within our normal legal understanding of, say,
6:01
S2: a right to silence, to not answer questions. That's a
6:04
S2: key part of this is that you are absolutely compelled
6:08
S2: to answer, and you can go to jail if you don't.
6:12
S2: They're very rarely used. They've only been used around a
6:15
S2: 20 times since they were introduced in 2003. And that's
6:19
S2: actually ASIO acknowledging how broad they are, how how unusual
6:24
S2: they are, because they say this is a matter of last,
6:27
S2: last resort, really. You can have a lawyer present, which
6:31
S2: is important, but the fact they've been traditionally limited to
6:35
S2: certain topics, specific focuses, shows how unusual they are in
6:41
S2: our legal system. And an interesting thing about this, I think,
6:44
S2: is that there hasn't been a lot of mainstream media
6:47
S2: attention on this legislation, but there's been a lot going
6:50
S2: on on social media. I think from the left and
6:53
S2: the right that shows, you know, how politics is different now.
6:56
S2: It's not just about what's on the TV and the
6:59
S2: newspapers and more concern about power being given to the state.
7:04
S2: David Pocock, the independent senator who also voted against this bill.
7:09
S2: He was making clear he's been really flooded by correspondence
7:13
S2: on this, of people saying this is government overreach. And
7:17
S2: One Nation Senator Malcolm Roberts spoke against the bill and
7:20
S2: voted against it. The Greens were very strongly against it
7:24
S2: and kind of led the charge against this legislation. So
7:27
S2: you see an interesting coalitions forming on the right and
7:31
S2: the left of politics, which could change. I think, the
7:34
S2: discussion that we have around national security laws.
7:42
S1: After the break.
7:44
S2: The nature of terrorism is changing, and what we're seeing
7:48
S2: with some ideologies is changing. It's not so rigid. You
7:52
S2: see a lot of people who are taking bits and
7:54
S2: pieces of different extreme views, and they can be very dangerous.
8:11
S3: And so I guess what are.
8:12
S1: The main risks according to those who are actually opposing
8:15
S1: these expanded powers? Like is it that people who have
8:17
S1: committed no crime, even people as young as 14, could
8:20
S1: just be detained arbitrarily, you know, for perhaps holding certain
8:24
S1: religious beliefs or religious or political association? Like, are they
8:28
S1: sort of envisaging some sort of dystopian scenario where people
8:32
S1: are just plucked off the street, you know, they're made
8:34
S1: to answer questions? Is that what they're fearing?
8:38
S2: Yes. And sometimes the conversation does go to pretty dramatic scenarios.
8:43
S2: Some people may say there's kind of conspiracy theories here,
8:46
S2: or people are exaggerating. That's just something I think that
8:50
S2: comes with this. When the process is so secret, it's
8:55
S2: prone to that because we don't know. We do get
8:57
S2: updates on the number of times they use, but we
9:00
S2: don't really know how they're being used and why. This
9:04
S2: would only apply to the new expansion of the powers
9:07
S2: only applies to adults. Children are covered under some of
9:11
S2: the others. But yeah, the topics that it goes to
9:15
S2: could get you into some contentious areas. So the aspects
9:19
S2: of communal violence and foreign interference, you can think about
9:23
S2: issues with the Middle East and the situation in Israel-Palestine,
9:27
S2: anti-Semitism that could come up there, and what are the
9:30
S2: limits of normal debate and what is, you know, getting
9:34
S2: us into dangerous territory. So that's where the opponents of
9:38
S2: the bill are worried and the pretty secretive nature of
9:41
S2: the whole thing.
9:42
S3: Okay. Well, let's talk about the complete.
9:43
S1: Other side, which is the arguments for why ASIO absolutely
9:47
S1: should have these new powers. You know, obviously our domestic
9:50
S1: spy agency probably cops a lot of criticism for, you know,
9:53
S1: not not knowing enough about the threats that are out
9:55
S1: there not protecting us enough. So tell us about the
9:58
S1: main arguments for why they absolutely should have these new powers.
10:01
S2: So ACR says that while it hasn't used these powers
10:06
S2: very much, they have already produced important intelligence and important
10:11
S2: intelligence outcomes. The key reason for expanding them, ASIO says,
10:15
S2: is that we're just living in a more complicated, complex world,
10:20
S2: and that national security is much more complicated than it
10:24
S2: used to be that, say, after nine over 11, we're
10:27
S2: thinking about pretty traditional threats of terrorism, you know, about
10:32
S2: terrorist attacks and blowing up buildings and whatnot. What they
10:36
S2: say is that the national security threats now are so broad.
10:39
S2: Mike Burgess has said for a few years now, for example,
10:42
S2: that espionage and foreign interference have overtaken terrorism as the
10:47
S2: primary concern. So the expansion of these powers reflects that
10:51
S2: and that there can be overlapping scenarios. So one example
10:55
S2: that ASIO gave in the process of this bill being
11:00
S2: debated was, say, an attack on a nuclear powered submarine.
11:04
S2: If they found out that could be happening. So they
11:06
S2: said that can simultaneously be an act of sabotage, an
11:10
S2: act of politically motivated violence, an act of foreign interference,
11:13
S2: and an attack on a defense system. That's pretty crucial
11:17
S2: to think about. One aspect of this legislation specifies defense.
11:21
S2: Aukus is huge on that. The fact that Australia is
11:24
S2: acquiring nuclear powered submarine technology that so many countries would
11:28
S2: love to know more about and get access to is
11:32
S2: a big threat for us and a big opportunity for
11:35
S2: other nations. I think that's one of the key drivers
11:38
S2: here as well, is to give ASIO more powers in
11:40
S2: that defence space to deal with potential spies who are
11:44
S2: trying to find out about something like Aukus.
11:47
S3: And I was.
11:47
S1: Interested in one of the, I guess, expanded triggers for
11:51
S1: what could prompt ASIO to now legitimately require people to
11:54
S1: ask questions. And this was, you know, if people if
11:57
S1: they are found to be promoting communal violence, that's one
12:00
S1: of the expanded topics that are sort of, you know,
12:03
S1: under focus here. And I'm just wondering, the bill was
12:06
S1: introduced last July. That's before the Bondi massacre happened in December.
12:09
S1: But is perhaps the thinking within ASIO that this new
12:12
S1: expanded law with it, our spy agency will be able
12:16
S1: to collect the sort of intelligence that may have hypothetically
12:19
S1: enabled them to stop that sort of horrific attack from happening.
12:23
S2: Yeah, I don't think it's been made necessarily explicitly. As
12:27
S2: you say, these laws were in train even last year
12:30
S2: before Bondi. But what Mike Burgess always says is that
12:34
S2: despite all the powers that ASIO has, it's not an
12:36
S2: all seeing, all knowing agency. There's a lot of criticism
12:41
S2: when anything goes wrong. The royal commission now is probing
12:45
S2: the Bondi attack and whether there were intelligence failures. So
12:49
S2: this is what Mike Burgess would say is that the
12:52
S2: powers need to keep being expanded and updated that the
12:55
S2: nature of terrorism is changing. And what we're seeing with
12:59
S2: some ideologies is changing. It's not so rigid in terms of,
13:03
S2: say you're an adherent of Islamic State. You see a
13:06
S2: lot of people who are taking bits and pieces of
13:09
S2: different extreme views, and they can be a very dangerous.
13:13
S2: So yeah, it's all part of the context for this.
13:16
S1: And just finally, Matt, why do you think that this
13:18
S1: issue attracts so much interest from the left and the right?
13:22
S1: Is it something about what's happening in our culture or
13:25
S1: the globe more broadly now? What do you think's going on?
13:28
S2: Yeah, I think we see that people, the public, you know,
13:32
S2: readers and viewers are more willing to go and do
13:34
S2: some of their own research, not so reliant on the
13:38
S2: mainstream media, not so accepting the trust of institutions. I
13:42
S2: think that's something you can see. We see this in America,
13:45
S2: for example, that you have Republicans and members of the
13:49
S2: Trump Maga movement who are very distrustful of what they
13:53
S2: call the deep state. And there's a libertarian streak on
13:56
S2: the right that has always been there much more strongly
13:59
S2: in America than here. But we're not immune to those trends,
14:03
S2: and we're a bit downstream of, say, what's happening in
14:05
S2: a place like America. So I think we're seeing more
14:08
S2: libertarianism on the right one Nation. Interestingly, you know, is
14:13
S2: dabbling in this space, whereas they don't trust the government.
14:16
S2: There is some conspiracy elements to, you know, the discourse
14:20
S2: in which they move. The growth of, say, the teals
14:23
S2: is really interesting because, yeah, they're locked out from some
14:26
S2: of the process on this and they're more, much more skeptical,
14:30
S2: I would say, about just handing over new powers to
14:35
S2: someone like ASIO compared to the traditional powers of government.
14:39
S2: So I think if we keep seeing the fracturing and
14:42
S2: fragmenting of our politics that we have seen, and that
14:45
S2: seems to be still continuing with the primary vote of
14:48
S2: the big parties going down, we're going to see more
14:51
S2: debate and contestability in this space. And I think regardless
14:55
S2: of what you think of the legislation and what powers
14:58
S2: ASIO should have, that's good, because some of this is
15:02
S2: a bit too secretive, you know, or there is not
15:05
S2: quite enough scrutiny and public attention. So if there's a
15:09
S2: bit more to and fro and a justification for why
15:13
S2: extraordinary powers are needed, then I think that would be
15:16
S2: a good thing.
15:18
S1: Well, it's so interesting. So thank you so much, Matt,
15:21
S1: for your time.
15:22
S2: No worries at all.
15:35
S1: In other news today, beyond bruised hands and swollen feet,
15:40
S1: doctors say they're worried about another health risk to Donald Trump.
15:43
S1: The ten or so kilos that the US president may
15:46
S1: have gained, according to medical records since 2023, meaning he
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S1: is less than a kilo shy of being classified as obese.
15:55
S1: Seven foreign nationals from the United Kingdom, United States, Mexico,
15:59
S1: Poland and Uruguay are in custody facing significant prison terms
16:04
S1: after Sydney detectives dismantled what police say are sophisticated overseas
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S1: child abuse networks. And ahead of key inflation figures being
16:14
S1: released later this week, a former bank economist has cautioned
16:17
S1: that falling house prices are unlikely to start turning around
16:21
S1: until buyers and investors believe the reserve Bank is poised
16:25
S1: to cut interest rates. You can read more at the
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