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#HURDLEMOMENT: An Expert On How to Get Comfortable Being Uncomfortable · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

0:00
Speaker 1: Humans have way more potential than we realize. So by
0:05
Speaker 1: doing something hard when you think you really can't do it,
0:07
Speaker 1: we learn a lot about ourselves. And there's some like
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Speaker 1: evolutionary machinery that really gets triggered. Our natural environment used
0:15
Speaker 1: to show us these sorts of challenges all the time
0:18
Speaker 1: because life was tough. We had to do things like
0:20
Speaker 1: hunt and gather and move great distances. But nowadays we
0:24
Speaker 1: don't really have that, So I think we do need
0:26
Speaker 1: these sort of moments that push back at us and
0:28
Speaker 1: teach us something about ourselves.
0:43
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Emily Abadi here, you are listening to another
0:46
Speaker 2: installment of Hurdle Moment from Hurdle Today. I am talking
0:50
Speaker 2: all about how to get better at getting comfortable with
0:54
Speaker 2: the uncomfortable with Michael Easter.
0:56
Speaker 3: He is the new author of The Comfort Crisis.
0:59
Speaker 2: He's also so a contributing editor at Men's Help Magazine,
1:02
Speaker 2: a calmnist for Outside Magazine, and a professor at the
1:06
Speaker 2: University of Nevada, Las Vegas.
1:08
Speaker 3: There are endless.
1:10
Speaker 2: Takeaways in today's episode, but man, is it's so interesting
1:13
Speaker 2: to talk to someone who has done extensive research on
1:17
Speaker 2: a subject that literally impacts each and every one of us.
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Speaker 3: Every single day.
1:23
Speaker 2: In our chat today, Michael talks a lot about his
1:25
Speaker 2: research for the book and traveling all the way to
1:29
Speaker 2: the Arctic, where he learned a whole lot about getting uncomfortable,
1:33
Speaker 2: and how that experience really shaped the way that he
1:36
Speaker 2: goes about his day to day these days.
1:39
Speaker 3: Now.
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Speaker 2: Of course, not each and every one of us is
1:41
Speaker 2: going to go up to the Arctic to learn all
1:43
Speaker 2: these lessons, And luckily, because I have Michael on the show,
1:46
Speaker 2: you don't have to. But I think a lot of
1:48
Speaker 2: the people listening to the show have done things in
1:50
Speaker 2: their life that have given this similar perspective, right, whether
1:54
Speaker 2: it's running a marathon or making a huge job transition
1:58
Speaker 2: that you were super scared of these hurdles in life.
2:01
Speaker 2: They might not always be expected, but what we learn
2:04
Speaker 2: by getting over them and conquering them is absolutely irreplaceable
2:08
Speaker 2: when it comes to showing up to future challenges and
2:11
Speaker 2: doing the same with those. Like I said, Michael's a
2:14
Speaker 2: new author. The book is The Comfort Crisis. I'm going
2:16
Speaker 2: to link to it in the show notes. And speaking
2:18
Speaker 2: of books, we are currently reading green Lights by Matthew
2:21
Speaker 2: McConaughey for the Hurdle Book Club. We are getting together
2:24
Speaker 2: to discuss that on July nineteenth. To sign up to
2:27
Speaker 2: be kept in the loop for one registration that goes live.
2:30
Speaker 2: A link to do that is in the show notes.
2:33
Speaker 2: Make sure you're following along with Hurdle over at Hurdle
2:35
Speaker 2: Podcast on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. I am over at
2:39
Speaker 2: Emily a Body and if you haven't subscribed to the
2:42
Speaker 2: weekly Hurdle yet, I would love it if you would
2:45
Speaker 2: do just that over there, I'm giving you a lot
2:48
Speaker 2: of recommendations things that I'm loving. On the regular, I
2:51
Speaker 2: get a lot of questions in my DMS asking me
2:53
Speaker 2: for my picks for everything from workout shorts to sunscreen
2:57
Speaker 2: to things that are in my apartment.
2:59
Speaker 3: I mean, you name it. Oftentimes I am.
3:02
Speaker 2: Revealing my favorites in the newsletter and you can get
3:05
Speaker 2: them in your inbox every single Friday.
3:09
Speaker 3: That's it for now. With that, let's get to hurdling today.
3:23
Speaker 3: I am chatting with Michael Easter.
3:25
Speaker 2: He is a new author of The Comfort Crisis Discomfort
3:28
Speaker 2: to Reclaim your wild, happy, healthy self.
3:31
Speaker 3: How you doing today?
3:32
Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How are you?
3:34
Speaker 3: I am so good?
3:36
Speaker 2: The question right off the bat has to be how
3:40
Speaker 2: does a guy get to a point where he says
3:42
Speaker 2: to himself, you know what I'm going to do. I'm
3:45
Speaker 2: going to write a book about getting uncomfortable.
3:49
Speaker 1: Yes, that is a great question. And there were a
3:51
Speaker 1: variety of steps for that. So I'll kind of start
3:54
Speaker 1: from the beginning. One. I worked at mental for a while, right,
3:59
Speaker 1: And I know this pattern in everything I did for
4:02
Speaker 1: mental health. Getting healthy, whether it's improving your fitness, losing weight,
4:06
Speaker 1: usually comes with some form of discomfort. Right. If I
4:08
Speaker 1: want to improve my fitness, I'm gonna have to work out. Well,
4:10
Speaker 1: working out is uncomfortable. If I want to lose weight,
4:13
Speaker 1: probably gonna be hungry, being hungry socks. Okay, So there's that.
4:18
Speaker 1: Then I meet this guy whose name is Donnie Vincent,
4:22
Speaker 1: and he's a backhuntry bowhunter and filmmaker. He goes into
4:26
Speaker 1: these crazy remote places off the grid and he'll be
4:30
Speaker 1: there for like a month, right, And I end up
4:32
Speaker 1: doing a story with this guy for Men's Health. So
4:34
Speaker 1: we go into the wilds of Nevada for like a week.
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Speaker 1: And you know, like working at Men's Health, you have
4:42
Speaker 1: to work out a lot, Like you get sent into
4:44
Speaker 1: these crazy extreme gyms. I've met some characters whatever, But
4:48
Speaker 1: We get up there and it is uncomfortable in all
4:51
Speaker 1: these different ways that like I just hadn't experienced forever. Right,
4:56
Speaker 1: it's freezing cold the entire time. We're carrying these eighty
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Speaker 1: pounds packs on our back the entire time. Like to
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Speaker 1: go get water, we have to hike a mile downstream
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Speaker 1: and bring it back up. We're bored because hunting is
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Speaker 1: actually very boring. It's not like you're just walking through
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Speaker 1: the woods, like you're kind of looking through scopes for
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Speaker 1: like hours of the time. And we only had one scope,
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Speaker 1: and I didn't have my phone and I didn't have service,
5:16
Speaker 1: so it's just like, oh, what is boredom? Like this
5:18
Speaker 1: is new long story short, Donnie. The story is good.
5:23
Speaker 1: Like people like it. We both get a lot of outreach.
5:27
Speaker 1: He invites me to come up to the Arctic with
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Speaker 1: him for thirty three days, and I'm like, all right,
5:33
Speaker 1: let's do it. So I go up there with him
5:36
Speaker 1: and it is just Nevada on steroids, where it's like
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Speaker 1: I experience all these discomforts that we as humans literally
5:45
Speaker 1: experience every single day. The life I lived up there
5:48
Speaker 1: was how humans lived for two point five million years
5:51
Speaker 1: up until like a couple hundred years ago. But when
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Speaker 1: I come back to my nice, safe, comfortable life at home,
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Speaker 1: everything is better. Like the dial on my mental, physical,
6:01
Speaker 1: and even spiritual health was like eleven. It was just
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Speaker 1: unlike anything that ever happened, and I wanted to know
6:08
Speaker 1: why that was. So I sort of set off on
6:11
Speaker 1: this investigation and I traveled around the world. I read
6:15
Speaker 1: way too many studies, like way too many, met with
6:19
Speaker 1: people ranging from special forces soldiers, anthropologists at Harvard. I
6:24
Speaker 1: went to Bhutan and met with Buddhist leaders, went to Iceland,
6:27
Speaker 1: and sort of the conclusion that I came up with
6:30
Speaker 1: was that humans need a little bit of discomfort to
6:35
Speaker 1: improve their lives. And there are a handful that I've
6:37
Speaker 1: identified in the book, and they all tend to be
6:40
Speaker 1: things that we used to face all the time, right,
6:43
Speaker 1: We used to have to go through hunger like life
6:46
Speaker 1: took effort. And even the way that we approach exercise
6:49
Speaker 1: today we try and make it comfortable, Like we go
6:51
Speaker 1: into these air conditioned gyms and like we get on elliptical,
6:54
Speaker 1: it's all like very programmed and scheduled, and then like okay,
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Speaker 1: my thirty minutes are up, I'm going to go now,
6:58
Speaker 1: I'm going to go like sit on the cap, right,
7:00
Speaker 1: whereas life used to force us into challenge and effort.
7:04
Speaker 1: And so I've sort of by investigator, sort of by
7:06
Speaker 1: weaving back some of these things that I've singled out
7:10
Speaker 1: in the book, we can move the dial a lot
7:13
Speaker 1: in ways that I think are beneficial for people.
7:15
Speaker 2: So interesting, I mean, there's so much to tap back
7:18
Speaker 2: on here. First and foremost thirty three days in the Arctic. Wow,
7:22
Speaker 2: you're married, right?
7:23
Speaker 1: I am married? Yes, Okay, you want to hear something
7:25
Speaker 1: totally messed up? Though? This is the most messed up
7:27
Speaker 1: part of all this book. And I didn't talk about this.
7:29
Speaker 1: This is a this is a sore spot. Well, I
7:31
Speaker 1: was in the Arctic. My wife went on a freaking
7:34
Speaker 1: cruise into the Greek Islands. So she's like, oh, She's like,
7:38
Speaker 1: oh you're hungry. Yeah, Well I was on a boat
7:40
Speaker 1: that's a floating buffet.
7:41
Speaker 3: You know.
7:42
Speaker 1: It was awesome, though it was the ultimate troll.
7:46
Speaker 3: The ultimate Oh my goodness.
7:47
Speaker 2: I was going to say, how did she feel about
7:49
Speaker 2: you going to the Arctic for thirty three days?
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Speaker 3: But it seems that she managed just fine.
7:55
Speaker 2: And then two other things that you brought out really
7:57
Speaker 2: interesting to think about the first thing you mentioning, well,
8:00
Speaker 2: I didn't have my phone. The phone has become such
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Speaker 2: a crutch for us in so many circumstances of discomfort.
8:09
Speaker 2: Right you could be anywhere from out to dinner with
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Speaker 2: someone to walking down the street, and these are all
8:15
Speaker 2: instances where you have ample opportunity for other social interaction,
8:19
Speaker 2: but we lean into our phones to get over that
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Speaker 2: hurdle of well, I don't know what's going to happen
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Speaker 2: if I actually expose myself to the world.
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Speaker 1: Yes, totally, And there's a good reason for this. So
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Speaker 1: as humans evolve two things. When we would get bored.
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Speaker 1: Boredom is this like evolutionary discomfort that basically tells us,
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Speaker 1: whatever you're doing right now, the return on your time
8:41
Speaker 1: invested has warn thin, so you need to go do
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Speaker 1: something else. So, for example, let's say we're hunting there's
8:47
Speaker 1: no animals around, Boredom would kick in and basically be like, yo,
8:49
Speaker 1: go do something else. It's going to improve your life,
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Speaker 1: So it kept us alive. Number two is that humans
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Speaker 1: hate unpredictability. So I talked to this researcher at Brown
8:58
Speaker 1: and he's like, the human brain is always going to
9:01
Speaker 1: default to something that can predict So we have two
9:04
Speaker 1: things going on. One is that now anytime we feel
9:08
Speaker 1: even the most tinge of boredom, we have this really
9:13
Speaker 1: easy and captivating way to fix it a phone. Number Two,
9:18
Speaker 1: with that social thing, it's like, if I'm having a
9:21
Speaker 1: conversation with someone on text, that is so much more
9:25
Speaker 1: predictable than if we're having a face to face interaction.
9:28
Speaker 1: Because let's say I say something in a way that
9:32
Speaker 1: you take wrong. Well, that's scary. But if I'm writing
9:34
Speaker 1: a text, I'm like, oh, this person might take that wrong. Delete, delete, delete,
9:39
Speaker 1: I can filter it and send it. So yeah, the phone,
9:42
Speaker 1: there's a reason now. And something else I talk about
9:44
Speaker 1: in the book is that, you know, there's a lot
9:46
Speaker 1: of focus on phones, and I think that that is great,
9:49
Speaker 1: but I think that sometimes when people try to use
9:52
Speaker 1: their phone less, they oftentimes will just default to like, Okay,
9:57
Speaker 1: well now I'm just going to watch Netflix instead, or
10:00
Speaker 1: now I'm going to be on my computer screen instead,
10:02
Speaker 1: and like, your brain does not know the difference in
10:05
Speaker 1: terms of how hard it has to work between the
10:08
Speaker 1: screen on your phone and the screen on Netflix, or
10:11
Speaker 1: even things like podcasts. And these are all great things,
10:14
Speaker 1: but Like, my argument is like, let's not think less phone,
10:18
Speaker 1: Let's think how can I integrate boredom back into my
10:21
Speaker 1: life in a productive way, Because you'll find that once
10:25
Speaker 1: you don't have that easy escape into your phone, the
10:28
Speaker 1: brain tends to come up with creative ideas. Some of
10:31
Speaker 1: them are totally a waste, Like you'll think of some
10:33
Speaker 1: wacky stuff that you're just like, where the hellth do
10:35
Speaker 1: come from? But a lot of times you'll find something
10:37
Speaker 1: interesting and productive, you know. So they do studies where
10:40
Speaker 1: they find that board people come up with more better
10:43
Speaker 1: creative ideas than people who are not bored.
10:46
Speaker 3: So interesting, so interesting.
10:48
Speaker 2: And something else that you mentioned was that so many
10:52
Speaker 2: companies have made it their mission to make getting healthier
10:57
Speaker 2: quote unquote easier.
10:58
Speaker 3: And seem less difficult.
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Speaker 2: So the question arises, really, is that then a good
11:06
Speaker 2: thing or a bad thing? Because from my point of view,
11:10
Speaker 2: at least until this conversation, in this moment, thinking about
11:13
Speaker 2: it in this manner, my thought is that it's a
11:16
Speaker 2: good thing, right because for so many the change and
11:21
Speaker 2: the stepping outside of their comfort zone feels like such
11:24
Speaker 2: a barrier to entry that for some they need that
11:28
Speaker 2: level of ease.
11:29
Speaker 3: To get in the door to start with.
11:31
Speaker 2: So what do we say to that person when it
11:33
Speaker 2: comes to perhaps picking up a new meditation routine or
11:38
Speaker 2: getting into fitness or something like that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll answer that this way, And like specifically
11:44
Speaker 1: thinking about fitness, if you are a person who frequently
11:49
Speaker 1: exercises and enjoys working out, you are one of the
11:53
Speaker 1: weird ones. Okay, So when you look at like how
11:55
Speaker 1: humans evolved, exercise is something we made up when we
11:59
Speaker 1: had to remove movement from our days by these technological advances,
12:04
Speaker 1: Like it would have never made sense to move without
12:07
Speaker 1: a very purposeful objective like I need to go get
12:10
Speaker 1: food or something like that. So we're wired for laziness essentially.
12:14
Speaker 1: So I tell you that because I don't think. I
12:17
Speaker 1: think a lot of times in the fitness world people
12:20
Speaker 1: get shamed for not exercising and not wanting to exercise.
12:23
Speaker 1: It's like, no, it's totally normal to not want to
12:25
Speaker 1: exercise and to not enjoy it, and that's okay. But
12:29
Speaker 1: it's also like there's a lot of things that I
12:33
Speaker 1: do in my life that I've been forced into doing
12:36
Speaker 1: that I don't like to do either, Like I didn't
12:38
Speaker 1: want to learn to read when I was a kid.
12:40
Speaker 1: Reading is this thing we had to make up to
12:42
Speaker 1: like improve our communication as a species as we had
12:45
Speaker 1: a lot more people, right, But I had to do that.
12:48
Speaker 1: I have to pay my taxes, you know, and obviously
12:50
Speaker 1: you don't have to exercise in the way you have
12:53
Speaker 1: to pay your taxes. But we also know that if
12:56
Speaker 1: you're not moving, there's going to be health consequences down
12:59
Speaker 1: the worlad. I mean, the data is overwhelming in terms
13:02
Speaker 1: of what a lack of fitness does for mortality rates.
13:07
Speaker 1: Like it's I mean, it takes more years off your
13:10
Speaker 1: life if you really don't move at all than smoking
13:14
Speaker 1: when you look at the data. So I don't know
13:17
Speaker 1: if that answers your question, but it's kind of one
13:20
Speaker 1: of those things. And I think that I think starting
13:22
Speaker 1: where you're at is so important too, you know, like
13:25
Speaker 1: if you don't do anything, it's like, just start with
13:28
Speaker 1: a five minute walk that if that's too long and
13:31
Speaker 1: that sucks too much, try one minute, Try thirty seconds.
13:35
Speaker 1: Next time, try thirty five seconds, then forty. I think
13:38
Speaker 1: it's really just sort of just building up that ability
13:41
Speaker 1: to be okay with feeling a little uncomfortable, and that
13:45
Speaker 1: improves over time.
13:46
Speaker 3: Okay.
13:47
Speaker 2: So the natural question that builds up over time here
13:49
Speaker 2: is someone recognizes, Okay, I need to make a change.
13:53
Speaker 2: I understand that this change is going to be uncomfortable,
13:58
Speaker 2: or what it is that I am seeking to do
14:00
Speaker 2: is not within my current wheelhouse. How do they proceed?
14:05
Speaker 2: What's the next step after making that perhaps like confession
14:10
Speaker 2: to themselves.
14:11
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people get more worked
14:14
Speaker 1: up about the idea of being uncomfortable then they are
14:19
Speaker 1: about actually being uncomfortable. Like, once you start something, it's
14:22
Speaker 1: not that bad, you know. It's like take hunger for example.
14:27
Speaker 1: People don't freak out about being hungry. They freak out
14:30
Speaker 1: about the idea of being hungry. Right, It's like because
14:33
Speaker 1: if you've actually experienced physiological hunger, it's not like it
14:35
Speaker 1: builds and builds and builds and then it's just like
14:37
Speaker 1: completely unbearable. It kind of comes and goes in waves
14:40
Speaker 1: based on where your attention is. So I think realizing
14:44
Speaker 1: that you're probably overthinking this, like yes, there's going to
14:49
Speaker 1: be some moments of discomfort, but also think like you
14:53
Speaker 1: kind of sometimes have to do things that are uncomfortable
14:56
Speaker 1: if you want to improve yourself or learn things. I
14:59
Speaker 1: mean change is uncomfortable, back to like what humans like
15:02
Speaker 1: and don't like. Humans are wired to not like change.
15:05
Speaker 1: We want things that are predictable, right, Like, the human
15:08
Speaker 1: brain has always defaulted to what is predictable. So getting
15:11
Speaker 1: out of your comfort zone can be tough, but the
15:14
Speaker 1: rewards are huge. I mean even just things like you
15:18
Speaker 1: look at their research on changing up your routine and
15:22
Speaker 1: we all tend to live in autopilot mode. Well, once
15:24
Speaker 1: we go out of that autopilot mode, it really can
15:26
Speaker 1: improve your focus and where your attention is spent. All
15:30
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you can't predict the future, so you
15:32
Speaker 1: have to pay attention, you know, and you look at
15:34
Speaker 1: someone like the work of William James. He talks about
15:37
Speaker 1: how at the end of your life, the sum of
15:39
Speaker 1: your life is what you paid attention to. Right, So,
15:43
Speaker 1: if you can get yourself in moments where you just
15:44
Speaker 1: are kind of forced into being mindful, it's like that
15:47
Speaker 1: stuff you're going to remember.
15:56
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18:45
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18:47
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18:49
Speaker 2: out that the differences between like optimistic people and pessimistic people.
18:53
Speaker 2: And the optimistic people are the ones that are sitting
18:56
Speaker 2: on the sidewalk having lunch with a friend and they
18:59
Speaker 2: see an elderly couple walking across the street and they're like,
19:02
Speaker 2: super cute and they're just enjoying the simple things of life.
19:05
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19:07
Speaker 2: with sees the smelly garbage truck, like pull up and
19:10
Speaker 2: put the trash in the back. And how different are
19:13
Speaker 2: those two perspectives on life? Because one person goes about
19:16
Speaker 2: their day and finds like the small joys and the
19:18
Speaker 2: simple pleasures, and the other person is like, I don't
19:20
Speaker 2: know at sometimes maybe like the classic cynical New Yorker
19:23
Speaker 2: and this is just the ways that you go about
19:25
Speaker 2: your living.
19:26
Speaker 1: Totally. So I'll tell you a story, and let me
19:29
Speaker 1: preface the story by saying that I am not suggesting
19:32
Speaker 1: in the least bit that you have to go to
19:34
Speaker 1: Alaska for more than a month to get this effect,
19:36
Speaker 1: but I will tell you this. So we get up there,
19:40
Speaker 1: it's freezing cold, right. We have one day where we're
19:43
Speaker 1: like twelve miles from camp and the sun is going down,
19:47
Speaker 1: so we have to get back. And the way you
19:49
Speaker 1: get back is across the tundra, which is I won't
19:51
Speaker 1: go into detail, but it is the worst thing to
19:53
Speaker 1: walk on in the world because it's kind of like
19:55
Speaker 1: half frozen. There's these big balls of grass that are
19:58
Speaker 1: really hard to walk on. And this was like pretty
20:01
Speaker 1: deep into the trip, and we get back to the
20:04
Speaker 1: tent and it is, you know, it's like negative twenty outside,
20:08
Speaker 1: and I'm freaking starving and I have a cliff bar
20:12
Speaker 1: and that's all I have for dinner, right, And so
20:15
Speaker 1: now it's like when I get back into my normal life,
20:19
Speaker 1: I can like stand, let's say, in a restaurant or
20:22
Speaker 1: something like that, and the service might be crappy and
20:27
Speaker 1: things may not be going my way, but I can
20:28
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I'm warm. Yeah, I didn't have to
20:31
Speaker 1: walk twelve miles to get here. I'm about to eat
20:34
Speaker 1: something that's a lot more delicious than a cliff bar
20:36
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be amazing. Things are totally fine. So
20:39
Speaker 1: I think the lesson is that, like sometimes we need
20:42
Speaker 1: to it's easy to get locked into a perspective where
20:47
Speaker 1: we don't really see how good we have it. A
20:49
Speaker 1: lot of us, right, And I'm not suggesting at all
20:51
Speaker 1: that like the world doesn't still have problems that we
20:53
Speaker 1: need to work on, but I think a lot of
20:55
Speaker 1: people's every day problems are sort of first world problems
20:59
Speaker 1: and we don't see that, right. So if you have
21:01
Speaker 1: moments that push back at those can give you a
21:03
Speaker 1: lot of perspective and that will make you more appreciative
21:07
Speaker 1: of everything you have.
21:08
Speaker 2: Well, this is the same thought process behind the marathon, right.
21:12
Speaker 2: It's the commonplace of once you run a marathon, your
21:16
Speaker 2: perspective on so many of the other hurdles that you
21:20
Speaker 2: will have to overcome in your life completely shifts, and
21:24
Speaker 2: you understand, having perhaps succeeded and pushed yourself through something
21:30
Speaker 2: that at times for sure felt one hundred percent impossible,
21:34
Speaker 2: that you are then capable of anything. So for you,
21:37
Speaker 2: in reporting this book and all of the experts that
21:40
Speaker 2: you spoke with and the research that you learned. Does
21:42
Speaker 2: anyone have like a term for this? Is there something
21:46
Speaker 2: in the brain that becomes unlocked when we see ourselves
21:51
Speaker 2: getting through these difficult hurdles.
21:53
Speaker 1: It's a good question. So part of the book I
21:56
Speaker 1: talked about this idea called masogi and guy his name
22:01
Speaker 1: is Marcus Elliott. He super far out. He's like gone
22:04
Speaker 1: to burning Man since way back when it was like
22:06
Speaker 1: super weird back in the day.
22:08
Speaker 2: How you know you're super far out is that you
22:10
Speaker 2: you're burning me on veteran.
22:12
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. But he's also he went to Harvard
22:15
Speaker 1: Medical School, so he's also very very smart, and he
22:17
Speaker 1: started this company called P three and they have contracts
22:20
Speaker 1: like with the NBA in the NFL, and they do
22:22
Speaker 1: all this like data movement modeling. It's all like very
22:25
Speaker 1: science and techie like he's totally revolutionized sports science. But
22:28
Speaker 1: he also knows that like what improves humans, our performance,
22:33
Speaker 1: how we see the world can always be measured. So
22:36
Speaker 1: they do this thing called masogi and it's like once
22:38
Speaker 1: a year they will pick one really freaking hard thing
22:43
Speaker 1: that's usually outdoors, and they'll go do it to see
22:46
Speaker 1: if they can do it. And there's only two rules
22:49
Speaker 1: rule number one, it's got to be really hard, which
22:51
Speaker 1: they define by saying you have a fifty percent chance
22:54
Speaker 1: of finishing it. Rule number two is that you can't die.
22:58
Speaker 1: So pretty straightforward rule number two. And they've done things
23:00
Speaker 1: like get an eighty five pound boulder and walk it
23:04
Speaker 1: five miles beneath the Santa Barbara Channel, so they'll like
23:07
Speaker 1: dive down ten yards. The next guy goes down all
23:10
Speaker 1: kinds of just kooky challenges. And the idea is what
23:14
Speaker 1: they're mimicking is when you look at like all cultures,
23:18
Speaker 1: like older cultures, people usually had to go through a
23:21
Speaker 1: rite of passage. Now, the idea of a right of
23:23
Speaker 1: passage is that you as a human are at point A,
23:28
Speaker 1: but we need you in our tribe or whatever it is,
23:30
Speaker 1: to be at point B. How to get you to
23:32
Speaker 1: point B, We're gonna like send you out in the
23:34
Speaker 1: wild to do something hard. So you look at all
23:36
Speaker 1: these different cultures. There's things like the Massai would do
23:39
Speaker 1: lion hunts, you have original tribe would do, walk about
23:43
Speaker 1: all kinds of different stuff. And while you're out there
23:46
Speaker 1: in this sort of middle ground of challenge, you're like,
23:50
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do this you have
23:51
Speaker 1: these moments where you're like, I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna quit.
23:55
Speaker 1: You know, I can see my edges coming up, and
23:57
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quit when I hit that edge. But then
23:59
Speaker 1: you up over it and you keep stepping, and then
24:02
Speaker 1: you look back and go, well, I thought my edge
24:05
Speaker 1: was right there, but I'm beyond it. So like I
24:07
Speaker 1: sold myself short. There where else in my life am
24:11
Speaker 1: I selling myself short? You know? I think that humans
24:14
Speaker 1: have way more potential than we realized. So by doing
24:19
Speaker 1: something like that, doing something hard, whether that's this Kooki
24:23
Speaker 1: masogi thing this guy does or a marathon when you
24:26
Speaker 1: think you really can't do it, we learn a lot
24:29
Speaker 1: about ourselves. And there's some like evolutionary machinery that really
24:32
Speaker 1: gets triggered. And I think that, you know, our natural
24:36
Speaker 1: environment used to show us these sorts of challenges all
24:39
Speaker 1: the time because life was tough. We had to do
24:41
Speaker 1: things like hunt and gather and you know, move great distances.
24:46
Speaker 1: But nowadays we don't really have that, So I think
24:48
Speaker 1: we do need these sort of moments that push back
24:50
Speaker 1: at us and teach us something about ourselves.
24:52
Speaker 2: For the person who finds themselves constantly underestimating themselves or perhaps,
24:59
Speaker 2: as you said, selling themselves short. What advice do you
25:04
Speaker 2: have for them to help them push through that hurdle.
25:08
Speaker 1: First of all, you're totally normal, So if you think
25:10
Speaker 1: about as humans evolved, it would make sense there would
25:13
Speaker 1: be a survival benefit to be the type of person
25:16
Speaker 1: who goes, I don't think I can do that. So
25:19
Speaker 1: if something you know were to come your way, you're like,
25:21
Speaker 1: I'm not touching that. It's a little too risky. But
25:23
Speaker 1: if you were thrown into that situation to actually have
25:26
Speaker 1: an outsized ability to complete it, right, So we there
25:29
Speaker 1: was an advantage to not thinking you're capable of something,
25:32
Speaker 1: but actually being capable. If humans would have been the opposite,
25:35
Speaker 1: if we were like, hell, yeah, I can do that,
25:38
Speaker 1: and then we get out there and it's just like
25:39
Speaker 1: we suck, Like we would have died off, right, So
25:42
Speaker 1: I tell you that to basically say you are capable
25:46
Speaker 1: of a lot more like we are not far removed
25:49
Speaker 1: from the people of our past. And you know, our
25:52
Speaker 1: ancestors used to exercise fourteen times more than us. Wasn't
25:56
Speaker 1: abnormal for them to have to run twenty miles in
25:58
Speaker 1: any given day like we have this on board. We
26:03
Speaker 1: just don't want to use it, and there is a
26:05
Speaker 1: good reason for that.
26:06
Speaker 2: And then in all of your reporting, was there anything
26:09
Speaker 2: else that really took you by surprise?
26:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So I went to So I'm up
26:15
Speaker 1: there hunting, okay, backcountry hunting, and I had never hunted before,
26:18
Speaker 1: and I was super reticent about hunting because I'm like,
26:22
Speaker 1: it was it's weird because like I eat meat all
26:24
Speaker 1: the time, and yet I'm like, I don't know if
26:26
Speaker 1: I actually want to engage in that, so I won't
26:29
Speaker 1: go into the details. But I end up hunting, like
26:31
Speaker 1: I still have meat in my freezer. But it got
26:33
Speaker 1: me thinking about the life cycle. And in the West,
26:37
Speaker 1: I think we don't want to think about or acknowledge
26:40
Speaker 1: the fact that one day we are going to die.
26:42
Speaker 1: And you can see this in our funeral system, where
26:44
Speaker 1: like when someone dies, we sort of make them look
26:48
Speaker 1: as youthful as possible, and then we sort of, you know,
26:51
Speaker 1: have this viewing and then they're in the ground and
26:52
Speaker 1: then we're told, you know, keep your mind off it.
26:54
Speaker 1: Go do something to take your mind off it. Even
26:56
Speaker 1: our food system, right, It's like our meat is manicure
27:00
Speaker 1: in such a way that we're not reminded that came
27:02
Speaker 1: from a living thing. So I end up traveling to
27:04
Speaker 1: Bhutan because they have a very different relationship with death
27:08
Speaker 1: than we do in the US. People in Bhutan are
27:11
Speaker 1: instructed to think about death at least once a day.
27:14
Speaker 1: A lot of their art and cultural stuff revolves around death.
27:18
Speaker 1: And I talked to this this guy who's super high
27:22
Speaker 1: up in Buddhism there, and it was it was a
27:24
Speaker 1: total trip because he lives in this like cliff side
27:27
Speaker 1: shack up this total rutted out dirt road. And my
27:30
Speaker 1: driver you have to have a driver there. We're in
27:32
Speaker 1: a smart car essentially, So my driver like Baja five
27:37
Speaker 1: hundreds this thing up this dirt road and I get
27:40
Speaker 1: to this shack and it's like I kind of have
27:41
Speaker 1: to go door to door and it's very basic. And
27:44
Speaker 1: I open this drape and like there's this big statue
27:47
Speaker 1: of the Buddha and there's like this incense smoke in
27:49
Speaker 1: the air, and like this guy just like turns to
27:52
Speaker 1: me and he's like hello, you know, just like oh
27:55
Speaker 1: my god, this is like the gangly westerner has come
27:58
Speaker 1: to see the Guru. But we talked for a handful
28:02
Speaker 1: of hours and He talked about how in the West
28:05
Speaker 1: we just don't want to acknowledge the fact that, you know,
28:08
Speaker 1: one day we're going to die, but once we actually do,
28:10
Speaker 1: that changes our behavior because all of a sudden you realize,
28:14
Speaker 1: like this ride is going to end, and people naturally
28:17
Speaker 1: become a lot more appreciative and it helps you sort
28:21
Speaker 1: of figure out, like what am I doing with my time?
28:25
Speaker 1: Helps you become more compassionate as well, because if I
28:28
Speaker 1: know that, like you know, one day this ride is
28:31
Speaker 1: going to end, and someone annoys me with like a
28:33
Speaker 1: snarky email, like I'm just not going to get worked up,
28:35
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be like, okay, whatever you know helps
28:37
Speaker 1: me make better decisions. Now, this is very uncomfortable thought,
28:41
Speaker 1: of course, it's like, oh man, that is heavy. But
28:45
Speaker 1: on the other side of that, I think your life
28:48
Speaker 1: improves and there's you can find some happiness there. And
28:51
Speaker 1: it's interesting because Bhutan is even though they're like totally
28:54
Speaker 1: low on the development rankings, they always rank as one
28:57
Speaker 1: of the world's happiest countries.
28:59
Speaker 2: Wow, I mean I I well, I needed to take
29:00
Speaker 2: that perspective last weekend when I was like attempting to
29:03
Speaker 2: put up vinyl stick on wallpaper.
29:06
Speaker 3: Wow, you would have thought.
29:07
Speaker 2: You would have thought the world was ending when this
29:09
Speaker 2: was going nowhere near as easy as they make it
29:11
Speaker 2: look like in all the videos. I was like on
29:14
Speaker 2: the floor. I facetied my dad. I've got like mess
29:17
Speaker 2: garrow on my face. He's like, what's on your face?
29:19
Speaker 2: I'm like, I've been crying. I can't get this wallpaper up.
29:22
Speaker 3: And then I'm like, wow, it's just some stick on wallpaper.
29:27
Speaker 3: That We're fine. We're fine. Such an interesting perspective and
29:30
Speaker 3: such a.
29:31
Speaker 2: Really important lesson to take away, just understanding that these
29:34
Speaker 2: moments of discomfort, they come and they go, and that
29:37
Speaker 2: we have the opportunity to either embrace that and kind
29:41
Speaker 2: of harness that and work through that, or we can
29:44
Speaker 2: be the only thing that holds ourself.
29:45
Speaker 3: Back right totally.
29:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, And on the other side of that discomfort is
29:48
Speaker 1: usually some sort of improvement in body, mind, spirit.
29:52
Speaker 3: All that good stuff.
29:53
Speaker 2: Michael, How do the hurdlers keep up with you? How
29:56
Speaker 2: do they follow along with you? Give me all of
29:58
Speaker 2: the information.
30:00
Speaker 1: The book that we're talking about is called The Comfort Crisis.
30:02
Speaker 1: It's available wherever books are sold. I have a website
30:06
Speaker 1: Eastermichael dot com. And then I'm on Instagram at Michael Underscore.
30:09
Speaker 2: Easter, I'm over at Emily Body at Hurdle Podcast, another
30:14
Speaker 2: hurdle conquered.
30:15
Speaker 3: Catch you guys next time.