Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / 2040 or Bust - Can Schools Keep Up With the Future?: The Late Show with Tim Smale

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2040 or Bust - Can Schools Keep Up With the Future?: The Late Show with Tim Smale · Teachers Talk Radio

0:00
Welcome to TKO Talk Radio! Thank you for listening!
0:21
Good evening and welcome to The Late Show with Tim Smale. I am Tim Smale.
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Tonight I am going to be welcoming onto the show my guest Alan Johnson and we're
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going to be talking about 2040 or bust.
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Can schools really keep up with the future?
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We're going to be talking about vision, curriculum and the future ready school.
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What does it actually mean to prepare students for a world that doesn't exist yet.
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The aim on our show tonight is not to set our vision as the only way forward,
0:57
but to spark discussion, debate, and curiosity.
1:00
So please do post your comments as you listen live to the show.
1:04
So guys, here's what I've been thinking about.
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Every school I've worked in has had a vision statement.
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I mean, you know the ones, right? Like inspiring lifelong learners,
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like nurturing the whole child.
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They're the words on the wall as you walk in the reception of the school or
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they're the Latin phrase on the school badge or they're somewhere alongside
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British values somewhere around the school on a display board or on the home
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page of the school website.
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And vision statements are as varied as they can be, but do they reflect an accurate
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vision of the future or do they reflect an accurate vision of the past?
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Just think about this, right? The students coming into our schools now,
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they're going to be leaving school in 2040.
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They're going to be leaving school in 2040. I don't know about you,
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that makes me feel pretty old already.
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And they'll be navigating careers
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that don't exist yet. They'll be solving problems that we can't yet name.
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And they'll be making decisions about technology we haven't yet invented.
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And the question that really strikes me is, are we building our curricula around that idea?
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Or are we just teaching the same things we've always done and then slapping
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a vision statement on top?
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I've spent 22 years in classrooms and I genuinely don't know if we're preparing
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students for their future or for our futures.
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And that's really what I want to dig in with Alan today.
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So the thought I have for you is whether a strong vision is enough or do we
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risk spending so much time on the destination that we kind of forget to look at the road.
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So I wanted to kind of trawl through some of the headlines and sort of pick
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apart one in particular.
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Like last week, the government published its long-awaited white paper,
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and it's titled, and I really sort of want you to hear this,
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it's titled Every Child Achieving and Thriving.
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It sets out a 10-year vision for education in England, covering curriculum changes,
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SEND reform, funding, attendance, behavior, and the structure of the school system itself.
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It's a 10-year vision. And tonight, we're going to be talking about 2014. It's 14 years away.
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So you would hope that a white paper published in the last week would have something
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meaningful to say about preparing children for a fundamentally different world.
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You would hope that, right? bless you.
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And there are genuinely interesting things in the white paper.
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There's a new enrichment, entitlement for every child requiring schools to provide
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access to civic engagement, to arts and culture, nature and outdoor activities,
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sports and wider lifestyles.
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And that's not nothing. I mean, that's actually something, right?
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And the paper also acknowledges, And I'm quoting directly from the document
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here that out of 27 European countries,
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the UK is last in how happy 15-year-olds are with their life.
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And this isn't a new statistic, but it is quite the sentence to include in your own white paper.
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And to hand it to the government, I have to give them points for their honesty.
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But we probably have to award zero points for the 30 years of policy that got us there.
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The sticking point for me, and what I'm genuinely curious about,
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is the paper proposes reforming Progress 8 to give greater weight to creative
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subjects while retaining that strong academic core, including English,
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maths, and science, which is fine.
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But Progress 8 is still Progress 8. the exam system is still the exam system.
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We've added enrichment around the edges, but the engine underneath hasn't changed.
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It's a bit like repainting a car and calling it a new model.
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Still the same car, it's still going to the same places.
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The title says Every Child Achieving and Thriving, and I genuinely,
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genuinely, genuinely hope it delivers that.
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But the question I want to put to Alan tonight on our show is a white paper
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that moves us from narrow to broad.
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But leaves the exam system largely intact, actually a vision for 2040?
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Or is it a vision for a slightly nicer version of right now?
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Because there is a difference, right?
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And I think our children deserve us to be honest about which one we're actually offering them.
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So now let's start moving towards the show and it's 2040 or bust.
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And there is a conversation about future ready education. It's been happening for 20 years.
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Every generation of politicians announces that schools need to change.
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We had a fantastic interview with Michael Gove as he sort of discussed his ideas
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and the reasons and motives for the changes that he made within his administration.
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And yet here we are, right? We're still sorting young people by how well they
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can recall information under timed exam conditions.
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And I really sort of started to sort of think to myself, like,
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is this actually a problem of a vision within schools?
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I don't think it is. I think plenty of teachers and school leaders have vision.
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The question I do keep coming back to is, does the system around schools actually
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want that vision to succeed?
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I mean, if we think about who designed the current system, like politicians
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were sorted by exams, university admissions tutors were sorted by exams.
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I mean, the entire infrastructure of modern professional life was built on that
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assumption that exam performance predicts capability.
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And I guess to dismantle that.
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Is to question the legitimacy of our own success. And that's pretty hard to do voluntarily.
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And every generation of kind of reform language gets absorbed without really changing.
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Like critical thinking appears on hundreds of school vision statements and on
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the mark scheme for that structured exam essay.
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The word skills gets added to curriculum documents without the assessment ever changing.
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And I think institutions have become very good at metabolizing a challenge without
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having the opportunity to answer those challenges.
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So my worry isn't that schools lack vision.
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My worry is that every time a school builds a genuinely different vision,
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the exam board, the league table, the university's admissions process,
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the inspection framework, they all sort of quietly reassert the old order.
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And my point really is that vision without system change isn't transformative. It's decorative.
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So why don't you tell me, am I wrong? Am I right? Like, please do.
8:53
Live on our show, send us a comment and let us know what you're thinking,
8:58
and we'll try and tackle as many of your points, your questions,
9:00
your queries, your doubts, your debates as we possibly can.
9:03
This show is brought to you in partnership with Hashit Learning,
9:06
publishers of professional development, books, and resources that support great
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Level up your professional development today and visit Visit www.hashitlearning.com
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to explore the full range of titles.
9:19
At AQA, we work with the UK's largest teacher network to shape the future of assessment.
9:26
With teachers for students, we ask questions today that matter tomorrow.
9:33
Hey, teachers, it's Tom here from Teachers Talk Radio, just dropping in to tell
9:38
you about Teachers Talk Connect 2026.
9:41
We are back with our amazing big annual CPD and networking extravaganza in Manchester.
9:47
It's on Saturday, the 14th of March, and tickets are completely free for teachers.
9:52
Just head over to ttradio.org forward slash connect 2026 to grab your ticket
9:57
today. We can't wait to see you there.
10:00
Now, today's guest is Alan Johnson. He's an assistant head with responsibility
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for teaching and learning.
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And at the heart of his approach is this genuine belief that schools can be
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built around a clear and honest sense of purpose,
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encouraging things like high-order
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thinking and preparing students for the future, not just for results.
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Alan is a passionate advocate for evidence-informed practice.
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And I've really enjoyed speaking to him as we've prepared for the show.
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He's implemented staff training and development initiatives,
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and he grounds those in research and cognitive science.
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And that forward-thinking approach has had a tangible impact on his school and
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community because it's culminated in his current school being accredited as a thinking school.
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So I would like to welcome to the stage...
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Thank you tim great to be here thank you
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so much for coming on to the show and i'm really looking forward to sort
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of tackling ideas about the vision of what what schooling should start to look
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like as we think about i mean 2040 alan it's crazy i mean i you know before
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we were talking i kind of came up with i didn't invent 2040 obviously but i'm
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i'm really lucky at the moment i'm working with our early years and key stage
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one kids and i was just thinking,
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you know as well as looking at what we're doing with key stage three and so
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on wait a minute when what will it be when when these guys leave you know work
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it all count it back my maths is takes me a while so 20 20 40 and then you look
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at 20 or you go 20 okay that's right but all right i'll be 71.
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You know it starts to put i'll still be in
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perspective you'll still be well mentally but it's just
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it's crazy you know it's crazy i mean we all
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remember a lot of us remember when 2000 was a thing you know and now it's 2026
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and then we're talking about these little ones leaving in you know 14 years
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time 2040 it's well it is what it is as they say but it's Hey,
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the 2000, 99 to 2000, I was at an end of the world party.
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I'm pretty, pretty sure that was the thing.
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You know, the machines are going to turn on us and that's going to be the end.
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Yes. Okay, Alan. So like we kind of started with my little, my little appreciate
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the start of the show, like talking about vision statements and vision statements,
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I think are everywhere in education.
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Can I ask just like in your experience, like what separates a genuine school vision from,
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from one that is just words on a wall just decorative
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i think a real vision is it
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gives you a genuine sense of purpose and it makes things it'll make some things
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harder because it provides challenge friction is something i might talk about
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and that might come up from time to time but it makes you stop and think from
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time to time about what you're doing how you're doing it And Simon Sinek,
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I'm sure a lot of us, what is your why that lies in the heart?
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So as you say, you can have a meta vision which just is up there somewhere and
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floats around and maybe it's in Latin or maybe it isn't, but it's purely decorative.
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And so for a vision to mean something,
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It's got to be something that can have an impact on the day-to-day,
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how you interact with other people, the respect you show to other people.
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That could be a cliche just as much as anything else.
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But when you start to look at that, and what I was pleased with,
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I won't go on and on about this, but part of our appraisal for the Thinking
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School's accreditation actually looked at and mentioned our vision statement
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and how it's all over the school.
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At eye level. It's not just up here.
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But when we're talking about children acting metacognitively and conscious thinking
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about conscious thinking, however you want to define that, that's not just academic
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stuff. That's life stuff.
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Why have I done that? Why am I talking to this person? Why did I react in the way that I reacted?
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And it can be, I don't know, that can be a genuine thing because little kids don't know.
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They don't know why they do stuff. But older kids, you teach them and they learn
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that they can reflect upon things and they can understand why that was hurtful
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or why it was great, why you've lifted someone up by doing that.
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So all of that is part of your value system.
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It's not just outcome at the end of the day or the end of when someone walks out of the school.
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It's more than that. And so it's going to shape CPD, it's going to shape leadership
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discussions continuously.
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It should be happening. Where do those sorts of things go wrong in schools?
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Are there sort of examples of maybe where it's not sort of feeding through and
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where people are kind of getting it wrong? What sort of mistakes have you seen?
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In terms of vision, I think...
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If you try and act too quickly on stuff, you know, if you have a vision,
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which is clear in your own mind, but you haven't clarified stuff,
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you haven't shared stuff, you haven't really spoken with people.
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One of the things that was the
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seed or one of the seeds that led
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towards the journey that led towards the thinking
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schools things you know I've mentioned it again already but
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was you know you look at evidence-informed practice
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you've got to look in my mind you've got to look at
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people like John Hattie you look at his meta-analyses of
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things what's going to work in
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my school it's not the same for every school you can't just
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take things up and you know from there and drop
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it over here so the collective teacher efficacy this
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sense of individual agency as
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a teacher coming together and that combination of agency leading to shared efficacy
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only comes through that communal development of things you know discussions
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where everyone's input is important everyone's input.
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Can have a direct and does have a direct impact
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on outcome and policy development and so
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on and so on and so on and I think for me that's
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that's where things work if you do it properly but
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if you if you insist on a top-down method
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that is an imposition isn't it you are imposing something upon others so to
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try and go middle up bottom up and drive things from the heart of the school
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the teachers are the heart of the school then you've got a greater chance of
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getting some traction and getting some success I think,
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Great. Thank you. So, yeah, well, let's put this into context for a sort of
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a Wednesday afternoon at school.
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Yeah. Well, like what, what does it look like in, in, in, in the corridors on
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a Wednesday afternoon when, when, when that vision is actually working?
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Okay. I think, I think the first thing is you, you feel this stuff more than
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you can kind of measure it.
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I spoke to a great head teacher at a fantastic little school we say up country
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a while ago and they had a farm in the school which all the kids took by and
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they grew things literally from.
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They ended up on the table, let's put it that way, in the school.
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And I said to this chap, what would the school, can you quantify the success of that?
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He said, I don't, no, not really. But I know we would be diminished, we'd be less without it.
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So the success of things is what is going on that becomes habitual, that becomes practice.
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So I see things or I hear things, I hear commonality of language,
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people using the same terms in
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discussions i see and i'm in a classroom
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just i'm in an office just up the corridor i see
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a quote from dylan william on the on
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the whiteboard that wouldn't have been there four years
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ago five years ago but it's there now about learning
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and you know residue of thought and memory and those kinds
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of things i see meaningful necessary posters
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up in classrooms not just for decoration you know but
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they're things about how do i question myself
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metacognitively or methods for revision
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what's retrieval practice these kinds of things a
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shared sense of purpose and i'm not
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going to pretend that this is every conversation every
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pupil every colleague all the
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time but it's there and it starts to become just what you do you know it's not
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an add-on it's an add-in and it becomes part of the nature of what you do i
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think yeah interesting so i mean like yeah let's talk about the average teacher's day right so uh.
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Pretty full teaching day i think at the moment i've got 25 out of 30 lessons
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you know there's quite a lot going on and you know there's a lot of pressure
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for for exam groups like how does the teachers sort of balance that idea of
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what you want for a teaching and learning vision with.
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Busy working week exam classes going out like how do you build that sense of
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vision at crunch times like like we are at the moment yeah so it's not something that you can do,
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immediately you know this has been we are
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where we are now after a
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five six year program you
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know that we that we put together back then you know and it's
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it's taken those discussions i think
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the really important thing is you can't do any of this remotely you
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can't do this by email you can't do this by edict you
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can't do it by policy you've got to
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go and talk to people you know if i'm
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honest i put my hand up if i look back at
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the last month i haven't been around as i've been here but
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i haven't physically been walking around on a split site as much
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as i could or should but i i tend
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to make a point of going in and
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talking to people and saying you just how's it going or what
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have you been doing and i listen listen listening is you know julian treasure
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if you've seen julian treasure online cambridge professor specializes in listening
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is just fascinating my wife will say i've got to do a bit more on that front
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which is fair enough but but but it's there the point the.
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Obviously, observations, but you naturally alter things, don't you, by going to observe.
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That changes the nature of what's going on.
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And you can always say, carry on, it's fine, I'm just walking around.
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But even that is going to change the interactions that go on.
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So it's very difficult, but I think it's subtleties and it's subtle shifts and
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it's incremental changes over time,
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that change and have an impact on culture cultural change which is what we're talking about really,
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is not something that you can measure in weeks
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or months you can't be impatient about it and
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my headmaster the headmaster here guy ailing often talks
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in terms of dogs and cats are you a dog or you're a cat and i'm
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i know i'm pretty much a dog set me
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off running i'm off bang you know and my colleague who i
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share an office with here he's terrific he's very much a cat
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you know we kind of so i i but
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being aware of that i know i've got to kind of slow myself down
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and pull back yeah and not you
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can't demand too much too soon or you can you know but that's where we go back
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to your previous question of that's it won't work you know and whilst i you
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know i might have said earlier we can look at the work you know research informed
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practice and is good but even then even if you're looking at the context within your school,
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it still doesn't mean one size fits all within that context.
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Maybe this works for science. Maybe this works for math. But does it work for humanities?
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Does it work for creative arts? Maybe you need to make some adjustment.
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And you only know that if you go and talk and listen.
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And and make those adjustments you know and i
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mean do we have the time do we have the flexibility in schools to
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to do that or do we end up having
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to just sort of settle for yeah it's very
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i mean time is is the thing isn't it and we we
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have we have packed days here colleagues you
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know our school day goes from 8 30 to 5 30 give or
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take you know and within that there's
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all sorts of stuff going on and then it bleeds into weekends
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i was out last i wasn't doing the lion's share
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by any means but i was out last weekend we've got teams training for
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10 tours there are teams going out this weekend they're training for duke
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of edinburgh and this is all extra stuff you know
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so you can't be adding stuff
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in you can't be and this is
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another thing that john hattie says i think he says particularly in the
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uk it wouldn't surprise me we're very good
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at chucking more stuff in but
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we're not great at taking stuff out you know so to say i want you to do this
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i want you to have a new approach i want you to be thinking in new ways what
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is this metacognition thing what is retrieval practice that's all well and good
23:44
but you you can't just add it on.
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Yeah and expect everyone to be doing it so it takes time doesn't it takes time
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to reach that commonality of language, that shared understanding,
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so that the benefit has to be for the pupils, doesn't it?
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So that when pupils are moving from key stage one to key stage two, three, four, five, they.
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There is that commonality of language. They understand what you're talking about.
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When you talk about retrieval practice, you talk about metacognition,
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and you talk about spaced learning or interval learning and different strategies and approaches.
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The more time you spend in those conversations, professional discussions.
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The more that just becomes what you do and how you do it. But it doesn't happen overnight.
24:32
It can't happen overnight. No, I was listening to one of my kind of show colleagues.
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She was talking about if she actually has stuck to kind of contract hours,
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she would have six minutes of preparation, assessment, evaluation time for each
24:47
class that she's preparing for.
24:49
Like, you know, teachers are busy. So I guess it's trying to balance that.
24:53
So if there was something that a teacher could do that would take them towards
24:57
maybe the vision that the school has or the vision that they have,
25:01
it brings them closer to that vision.
25:03
What is one thing they could actually they could
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actually do tomorrow uh what it's
25:09
an interesting thing is i think this isn't a get-out but
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i have got a thing in mind but you've
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got to you know you've got to think about the kids in front of you you've got
25:18
to think about that cast that subject where are they in the scheme
25:21
of things yourself as a teacher i don't want every teacher
25:24
to be this is not the borg selective you know
25:28
i don't want every teacher to be a carbon copy
25:31
we don't want this to be a sausage factory that's not how it works you have
25:35
to have individuality but i've been going back i've been looking over graham
25:42
nuttle research graham nuttle yeah and overlapping with you know john hattie.
25:49
And we don't know the minds of children. So one of the best ways in is through questioning.
25:57
Bruce Robertson, he's everywhere. He's terrific talking about questioning.
26:04
And it kind of overlaps with feedback. You could see some overlap with feedback,
26:08
definitely, how you deliver feedback and how feedback is received.
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But do you allow time? Do you genuinely allow time for pupils to think, reflect, and answer?
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So the wait time when you ask a question.
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And one of the things Bruce has said, I was listening to him on a podcast,
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this was a while ago, it was a webinar a while ago.
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If you teach for 30 minutes, you should have 30 questions in that lesson.
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Obviously not all at once, but some of those will be pre-prepared.
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Some of them will naturally come as a course of what happens, June.
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But what that means is those of us who are a bit verbose and tend to stand and
26:57
talk, it might let you put the brakes on. It might help you put the brakes on.
27:02
Go, wait a minute. I've been talking at these children for 10 minutes.
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They haven't said a word yet.
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You know so i'm already 10 minutes in
27:12
that should have been 10 questions worth by now you
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know so think think about
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the questions that you want to find out the answers to
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from them and allow them the chance to question you back and but allow them
27:27
the time to answer allow them the time to talk to each other metacognitive question
27:32
okay tim here's a question talk to alan about it and then I'm going to come
27:37
back to it and you're going to tell me what Alan said.
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So there at it, if I had 30 minutes and 30 questions and everyone discussed
27:44
that, God, that would be, I'd have a heart attack. No, I know.
27:50
There's nothing wrong with silence. We fear dead air, don't we? Yeah, we do. Yeah.
27:57
Especially on this show, Alan, especially on the show. exactly.
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But we're all right. Cause like you said, with Terry Wogan, you just imagine you've got one,
28:04
the one person out there is still listening i've
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got one person exactly and it's
28:11
probably my mom okay alan we made
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it to the end of the first part of the show okay terrific um thanks alan so
28:19
i'm just going to shout out to aqa aqa know teachers are the real experts in
28:24
the classroom that's why they work closely with teachers like you like me like
28:28
all of us and they're combining your insight with assessment expertise to create resources,
28:33
tools, training, and guidance that genuinely makes a difference.
28:37
They are the UK's most chosen assessment organisation.
28:41
So chances are you already know their work. And as we head into exam season,
28:45
AQA are focused on helping teachers feel supported and ready.
28:50
So if you want to find out more about how they're working with teachers just
28:54
like us, then please do head to their website to find out more.
28:59
So Alan, the next part is our shout out board. The shout out board. Okay.
29:08
And this is, dear listeners, for anyone who's listening to the show or anyone
29:13
who is catching up via the podcast, please feel free to direct message me on
29:17
LinkedIn. Are there any teachers?
29:19
Are there any leaders? Are there any people associated with your school community
29:23
who are deserving of some extra recognition, a kind word or a general bit of education?
29:31
I had one shout out on LinkedIn that said, this is a shout out to heads of years
29:36
and pastoral teams, the people who quietly hold the emotional architecture of a school together,
29:43
often without any strategic credit for the work they do. Thank you.
29:48
For me, I was going to shout out to exam officers, but actually I wanted to
29:52
shout out to all of those people who are dealing with the really difficult situation
29:57
the world has placed us into recently.
29:59
I know lots of people out in a variety of different Middle Eastern countries.
30:04
And the work that people are continuing to do in the face of such difficulty,
30:09
you guys are absolutely incredible.
30:12
And my thoughts go out to every single one of you.
30:15
So Alan, actually, I probably should give them a round of applause, Dave.
30:19
Why have the special effects of you don't involve in the beauty of them?
30:23
So this is my lesson learned section. And Alan, I just wanted to ask if there
30:27
was a mistake or a tough moment that ended up teaching you something valuable. Ooh.
30:38
Gosh, a mistake or a tough moment.
30:43
I'm going to buy you some time. I'm going to let you know one thing.
30:46
I've seen a couple of times in schools, and those friends, if they're listening,
30:52
they're probably going to kill me for saying this.
30:53
But one thing I've learned from other people's mistakes is do not leave your
30:57
laptop on top of your tablet. Oh, God. Okay, right. Okay, that could be.
31:01
I have seen that happen a few times as people sheepishly come in.
31:06
I'm really sorry, but I left it on top, not inside, on top of a taxi.
31:12
Well, things, my wife will, again, she'll remember things like this,
31:18
but in the days when maybe I had a tutor group and you had to prepare,
31:23
something for an assembly and you sit with the rest of the congregation and
31:29
there's that pregnant pause and you haven't done anything.
31:35
So you're looking around, who's not done this?
31:38
So just being on top of things in the day-to-day running of things and remembering
31:46
what day of the week it is and those kinds of things.
31:50
I'm not the world's best timekeeper. okay i know that to the i know that because
31:56
once upon a time when i was a director of support somewhere else someone left
32:00
me a thomas the tank engine learned to tell the time book.
32:06
In my office i'm most definitely telling you something there yeah so that that
32:12
kind of thing yeah perfect okay i'm going to shout out to hash it learning this
32:17
show is brought to you in partnership with hash it learning they're publishers
32:20
of professional development books and resources that support great teaching
32:23
and learning in schools around the world.
32:25
So level up your professional development today and visit www.hashitlearning.com
32:30
to explore the full range of titles.
32:36
So Alan, we're going to move into part two, building the 2040 curriculum.
32:42
So you've got an opportunity now, Alan, you are going into a school,
32:47
you're going to build it from the ground up.
32:49
You're absolutely starting from scratch. We know that these students entering
32:53
the school are going to leave in 2014.
32:57
Where would you start in designing the school curriculum? It's still crazy. Investment.
33:06
Or a plea for investment. We were talking about this just before the show started,
33:10
so I'm going to share that anecdote.
33:13
So Daniel Emerson, he's a fantastic guy, works with the Good Future Foundation.
33:17
He and I were in some schools with the Curnow Learning Trust down in Cornwall
33:23
recently, and he was saying, look, think about this.
33:25
We're trying to do all this development, and implementation
33:28
people are trying to weave ai in i
33:31
know we're not talking just about ai but when
33:34
you've got these major companies investing a
33:39
trillion dollars in research how
33:43
how on earth do you keep up with that you know what you can't move fast enough
33:48
to keep up with that and the change is beginning to become kind of this is not
33:52
me saying there's someone else who knows more than me is becoming exponential
33:56
it's heading in that direction you know things are really kind of taking off
34:00
i've i'll just share those is the facts and i.
34:04
Co-pilot buddy we shared this before just to put it into perspective we have
34:08
there's loads of millionaires okay so a million pounds a million seconds 11
34:16
and a half days yeah a billion seconds,
34:21
31.7 years i'm thinking this in terms of money as well a trillion seconds the
34:28
difference the gap between a billion and a trillion.
34:31
So a billion seconds, 31.7 years, and a trillion seconds, 31,700 years.
34:40
Now, we kind of convert that into money. We can't pay TAs in school,
34:44
right? Right, okay, exactly.
34:46
So where's the investment? Where's the real investment in education?
34:52
Where's the capital venture? It's not like you can't.
34:56
I remember having this discussion with someone a long time ago. Well, of course,
35:00
no one invests in education because you don't produce anything apart from your
35:04
children being educated and coming out the other end, hopefully,
35:08
you know, ready and prepared. So that's my that's my little bugbear.
35:12
So investment, proper investment.
35:16
Get get on with it but yeah what kind of what kind of thinkers do we want them to become,
35:22
these children and we're talking i'm starting with talking about the little
35:24
ones you know i don't think that the effect on and we're now probably talking about parents as well,
35:33
the effects of covid the long-term i'm not talking about long covid i just mean
35:37
the societal impact you can't say this is a global pandemic this is a once in
35:43
a lifetime thing and Oh, that's it. Let's move on.
35:47
Forget about that. There must still be ripples. There must still be things.
35:51
And we talk about oracy, the need to develop oracy. I think that's strong.
35:56
I think you've got to look at major shifts in education in the past over the generations.
36:04
And I'll come back to generations. What's stuck? There are some things that have stickability.
36:10
There are some things that matter you know
36:13
literacy matters i think the
36:16
physical ability to write matters and we can tie that into cognitive science
36:20
we know that if you write stuff down physically it sticks more it goes in you
36:25
know you've got a better chance of embedding stuff in the long-term memory so
36:29
all different types of literacy and now we put in ai literacy on top of that,
36:36
but then we have to also look at things like, you know, these are children.
36:41
These are little children. So we're looking for stuff that's going to make sense
36:47
to them. It's going to help them.
36:50
You look at the work of people like Hayley Peacock, you find her all over LinkedIn,
36:57
the pioneering approach to learning, which is more than it sounds like.
37:03
There's rigor behind it. There's method behind it.
37:07
Very deliberate. But you are allowing children to be children.
37:11
And I was listening to Amal Raja, love Amal Raja, his Radical podcast with Jonathan Haidt recently.
37:22
And both of them saying, you know, as parents now, we just want our kids to be able to be kids.
37:29
You know, I mean, I grew up, when I grew up, I grew up in the 70s and it was, you know, off you go.
37:37
I had a great child. There's nothing wrong with that. But, you know,
37:40
Jonathan Haidt, Amal Radia, we, you know, reflecting on their own childhood,
37:44
I want my child to have some of these opportunities that I had growing up,
37:48
the freedom to play, et cetera, et cetera, and learning through play.
37:52
And these are things that we've said. These things get said time and time and
37:58
time and time again. But like in your introduction.
38:01
As you rightly kind of alluded to, we're still on the same assessment treadmill.
38:08
So I would start looking at that, you know, what's a meaningful assessment.
38:14
And then, Tim, I think something I've been thinking about a lot just over the
38:20
recent days, I did an inset on this longer ago than I thought,
38:24
like a couple of years ago, I think.
38:26
But I'm, you know, I think generational identity is useful.
38:32
Maybe he's a stereotype maybe he's you know a bit of a jelly mold but I'm a Gen X,
38:37
okay so that puts me and the zeitgeist of
38:40
my it must have had an impact on me you know I
38:43
tell the kids there was no at mark on a keyboard when I was young there was
38:49
no keyboard there weren't even any keyboards there was nothing like that that
38:52
didn't exist and then what no none of that no phone nothing okay if I got cut
38:58
my dad would clean it with surgical spirits,
39:01
It was the 70s, okay? You get on with it.
39:04
The gap between me and Gen Alpha or Gen Beta, they're starting to come through, is immeasurable.
39:14
I don't know how these kids think.
39:18
I don't know yet properly how they learn.
39:22
We don't know the impact of technology and AI on learning because there hasn't
39:27
been enough longitudinal research.
39:29
But we do know how the
39:32
brain develops we do know how we can build you know long-term memory little
39:39
kids i was working with today we're talking about learning this is this is early
39:43
years key stage one they are talking with me and this is no i'm not making this
39:49
up they're talking with me about schema.
39:52
They're talking with me about metacognition. When we talk about AI,
39:57
they're talking about hallucination in AI and understanding what that means.
40:02
That's the key point. I hadn't seen them for two weeks.
40:06
They could retrieve. We're talking about retrieval.
40:09
We use the analogy of a dog, like my dog. Chuck something into the long grass.
40:14
There's a thought going into your long-term memory.
40:16
Can you bring it back? There's retrieval, bringing back the memory.
40:20
Sometimes you have to sniff around a bit.
40:22
Then you find it, but that's good because that means next time you go looking,
40:26
it won't take you quite so long, you know, because you do that again and again.
40:30
So I think we have to look at what we know works rather than trying to second guess what might work.
40:38
And we need to listen to these experts who are out there, you know, Louisa Munch.
40:45
She's all over social media. She was another one of Amal's guests and she talks
40:49
about nostalgia. And I think this goes back to what you were saying at the beginning.
40:52
We can't educate these children nostalgically for our childhood.
41:01
We have to educate these children for their future. Okay.
41:05
We can't predict the future, but that doesn't mean we don't have a go.
41:08
It doesn't mean we sit back and let things carry on as is.
41:12
We have to put serious thought into our GCSEs.
41:17
This is my opinion. Okay. I'll say that. Our GCSEs fit for purpose.
41:22
I'm actually made a statement. I made a question. Our GCSEs fit for purpose.
41:26
If they're not, why not?
41:28
You know, why are they still there? are they still going to be fit for purpose
41:32
is that exam still going to be fit for purpose,
41:35
in 2040 because if it's not you've got to prepare the ground for
41:38
what else you do how much you do it we know we know they're not fit for purpose
41:42
now i mean if you if you look at the sort of research that comes out from from
41:46
from businesses they're finding there's a massive disconnect with with what
41:49
students are outputting in exams and and then what they're able to do in the
41:54
workplace i mean And there's got to be a disconnect somewhere, right?
41:57
Like that suggests that our way of measuring people is not working.
42:02
And when we have gotten to this, there's an app for that kind of culture, haven't we?
42:06
You know, it's okay. Like struggling with masks, there's an app for that.
42:11
You're struggling with social relations. There's an app for that.
42:14
It sometimes feels like that's the direction you're going.
42:17
But I don't know. Like how are you feeling about sort of talking about the reason Munch that,
42:24
you know, are we okay telling young people we've got to prepare them for their
42:28
future, we've got to educate them on things, even though we know it's bad for them? Yeah.
42:35
Sorry what's what's what's bad for them what's the thing i guess
42:38
i guess because i a part of my
42:41
thinking for for the 2040 kind of preparation is
42:44
is probably increased screen time leveraging things
42:47
like ai which is it's not going to go away you know ultimately that's that's
42:52
where education is going to have to go to be morally responsible with the use
42:56
of ai but yes you can't ignore that even though we know that maybe it's not
43:00
actually good but this is this is the thing isn't it because I think, you know,
43:05
sensible people who I've spoken to, like yourself.
43:09
Thanks, Stanley. And there are other people, sensible people. There are.
43:12
But this is a good analogy someone else gave me. I won't claim this.
43:16
But, you know, there's all the variants of AI. So we'll talk about that for a minute.
43:20
Think of it as a Swiss army knife.
43:23
Which bit, which tool do you want to use? What is the job you're doing at the
43:27
moment that AI might help you with?
43:31
Okay. it's not again it's not one size fits
43:34
all that thing for getting boy scouts
43:37
out of horses hooves that's not going to that's not
43:40
going to help you with everything only if there's a boy scout stuck
43:43
in a horse's hoof is when that's useful okay so
43:47
you've got to use a different tool you've
43:50
got to use a different platform you've got to understand how that platform
43:53
works and use it properly to get the best
43:56
results out of that platform so it's
43:59
not ai and this is a problem people are talking
44:02
in general generic terms about generative ai and so as if ai is a thing but
44:10
it's not a thing it's a hydra isn't it you know there's so much and this is
44:16
we can educate children that this is not learning,
44:22
it's an assistant to learning and it might be that it's a jumping off point
44:27
it helps you get started with something and then you put it away because you
44:32
know what we can turn it off.
44:34
You know, I have had colleagues quite, right? I understand. I totally understand.
44:38
I don't want it coming in my classroom and taking over. And I said,
44:41
well, you can always just switch it off.
44:44
You know, you don't. Can you, Alan? I mean, I use Teams.
44:48
I use Teams and it's on there. I want to do a search on Google.
44:52
It's on there. I turn on my phone. It's on there.
44:54
Yeah. Hi, Tim. How are you? You know, like it's, can we turn it off? Are we at that point?
44:59
Well, no, you can literally shut your device.
45:04
Turn off your device and i think this is this is very interesting you know the
45:07
swedish thing sweden haven't ditched all technology and gone back to slates
45:13
and chalk they haven't done that.
45:16
But they've got a hybrid sensible we use
45:19
it when we want to use it we're the ones who decide when
45:22
it gets used and all they've done is articulate that more
45:25
clearly and more fluently than than other
45:28
people have yeah i think is that's that's
45:31
my take on it you know so you can it's right
45:35
to be cautious it's right to that but these go back
45:38
to these children the gen alpha and the gen beta they
45:42
are born into this ecosystem they are immersed in this technology so they are
45:49
going to think differently but because they're thinking differently doesn't
45:54
we shouldn't then be trying to drag them into our way of thinking, our shape of thinking.
46:01
I think we need to revisit, you know, child psychology is going to have not a field day,
46:08
but a lot of really interesting input and really interesting developmental stuff
46:13
going on just because their attention is different.
46:18
Doesn't mean it's wrong, but of course it is wrong, Tim, if we're trying to
46:23
drag them towards GCSEs and sitting in silence for two hours or three hours.
46:31
Having learned not just a curriculum, but how to access that exam.
46:39
You always learn two things, don't you, GCSE? It's the content and,
46:45
wait a minute, what does the exam board want?
46:47
So GCSEs are excellent at measuring how good you are at GCSEs.
46:54
That's what they're good at. What is the construct of the exam?
46:58
What is it actually trying to assess? Because if the reading age,
47:02
the average reading age of a GCSE paper is about 16 years old.
47:06
So if you're not there, it doesn't matter if you understand the skills and the
47:12
knowledge of that. If you can't access the paper...
47:16
Because for whatever reason, your reading isn't quite there yet.
47:22
You can't show your knowledge and your understanding.
47:25
But I mean, that's it. As we've seen the advent of more technology,
47:29
we've seen decrease in...
47:32
Sorry, I can't even speak. I'm trying to make a point about literacy.
47:35
So that really goes down well for me. But we're seeing ever decreasing literacy rates.
47:39
We're seeing 40% of young people in America are not able to access basic...
47:46
Literary texts to be able to follow the instructions on cooking a particular
47:52
product by sticking it into the microwave.
47:54
We see on the prison pipeline that actually over 60% of people who are in prison
48:01
have a reading age lower than 11.
48:04
So there's definitely a connection with literacy rates.
48:09
And I do worry, I guess, as we increase that.
48:13
But then I also read some reassuring sort of
48:16
research recently which is you know from from the
48:19
guys who make uh teacher tap they're kind of coupled up and
48:21
they make inner tap as well yes yes yes yes on there it's it's teachers who've
48:25
got 20 years of experience are actually a lot more cynical of ed tech and things
48:29
like that so i'm supposed to be grumpy yeah about these kind of innovations
48:32
yeah okay look i was i was i wanted to ask a sort of a couple more questions
48:37
and then the first one is look you If we're talking about 2040 and being ready for 2040,
48:42
what does a 2040-ready lesson, I don't know, in history, because I'm a historian
48:48
and I'm selfish, but English, maths, whatever it might be, what does it look
48:52
like? Can you make that concrete?
48:56
Are we imagining there's still the exam system going on?
49:01
You can, I mean, unfortunately we are at the moment within the confines of an
49:07
exam system, but you can go wherever you want. It could be in any key stage, I don't mind.
49:12
What does it look like to be getting our students ready for 2014?
49:15
I think in general we've got to have that focus all the way through.
49:20
So let's imagine we've started the journey with the little ones and they're familiar with this.
49:26
I think you've got to start with oracy.
49:30
And I think that is all the way through. So if it's history,
49:35
historical language, understanding historical terms, maybe you've left them with a question.
49:42
I'm quite a big fan of, especially with younger kids, I genuinely, this is, I pretend.
49:49
Pretend you don't understand what you were doing in the previous lessons. Thank you.
49:53
And get them to tell you, get them to talk first and then get them to tell you.
49:57
So then you're, you're embedding retrieval and then you can start to talk about
50:00
retrieval practice. I don't have to pretend.
50:05
Maybe I pretend to pretend. So that, that kind of, you know,
50:09
that kind of thing going on.
50:10
But as I said, you know, what works, what, what are things that will work consistently?
50:16
So if we can have reflective metacognitive strategy woven through.
50:22
So if we do then get to the point with this is now the tech part of the lesson,
50:28
do we understand how we're going to be using the tech now?
50:32
So are we using it to generate questions for us to bounce off and go away and answer?
50:39
Or do we start with through oracy, what do we know already?
50:44
So we're eliciting understanding from the pupils. Is there any prior learning
50:47
going on, prior knowledge going on?
50:51
And lots of good research you know hattie i said
50:54
i don't want to misquote people so i'm sorry
50:56
but you know pupils will already have an understanding of a significant amount
51:02
of your lesson content already yeah let's arguably let's just say 60 they know
51:09
60 of what you're going to tell they already know that but it's not a shared 60 percent.
51:15
It's different, you know, so where do you pitch that?
51:18
So it doesn't matter the subject, okay? You need to find out what they know already.
51:22
And you may have done that prior. So they come in with their own questions and
51:27
we're back to questioning and talking and discussing.
51:31
And the familiar routines like know, want to know and learn,
51:35
you know, what do I want to know at the beginning that I don't know already about this thing?
51:39
What have I learned at the end of a process? What's the outcome at the end of the process?
51:44
But I think I would be building lessons, generally speaking,
51:49
more and more around oracy and around that shared communication.
51:54
Again, though, going back to the point that we shouldn't be afraid of that silence,
51:58
allowing that time to think.
52:01
So maybe that gets built in. I've been talking to with Emily Neville.
52:07
She's our new head of English here in the lower part in the prep school.
52:10
And I can't remember I read it somewhere but we're talking let's have some analog,
52:15
sessions or analog days there is no tech there's nothing so on those days how
52:22
do you structure it how do you structure your teaching on that day because a
52:26
lot of us even without AI we become so reliant on powerpoint this or you know
52:32
video that or whatever none of that.
52:36
Go back to grassroots learning i
52:40
sometimes wonder what would it be great if it wouldn't be great what
52:43
would happen if there was a big solar flare that just wiped out all the tech
52:46
how would you teach then how would you teach them for him and that's how i think
52:53
i think that's how you should teach yeah and everything else is an add-on to
52:59
that imagine there's no tech in your classroom.
53:03
How do you teach so it's got to be based around discussion it's got to be based around listening,
53:09
and it's got to be based around questioning and not being afraid of that quietness
53:15
you know are you reassured by the government's white paper, I mean it's definitely broadening.
53:23
But the exam system is staying in place well yes and no, I had a conversation,
53:27
there's another chap, I'll give a call out, Alex Moore does a lot of work with
53:32
STEM, and he does a lot of work in the world of AI.
53:36
He's helping us with our AI development.
53:39
He'd been involved in some of the background stuff going on with curriculum review and so on.
53:46
I'm a member, I'm a fellow of the chartered college, so I've seen the stuff
53:49
that's coming out, and it's good stuff. It's got good provocations.
53:53
It's got good questions built around oracy
53:56
and learning in through nature which is a big focus for us here at the moment
54:02
driven by one of my colleagues who's called Katie Kelly she's just got really
54:06
behind that and really pushing that kind of thing but what Alex I was getting
54:12
all excited and Alex said well if you're hoping for a change in assessment.
54:16
That's not going to happen. Now, I know I did O-levels. I'm that old, okay?
54:22
But you've got to love the peppered moth. Who doesn't love the peppered moth?
54:26
But it's still in – that was in the exams I took over 40 years ago.
54:35
We were talking about the peppered moth. There must be other ways to show environmental
54:40
change and the impact of pollution on the world around us. Yeah. No?
54:46
You know you need a more responsive dynamic curriculum where's all the modern literature.
54:55
Yeah yeah it'll be interesting to see what our listeners think as they're listening
54:58
live to the show like what do you think you know are you are you reassured dear
55:02
listeners by the by the white paper do you think this is going to be uh the
55:07
beginning of the change that we need especially is we're starting to think about uh 2040.
55:15
So now is the time for the rant in
55:19
case you didn't hear that rant rant uh this is your opportunity if you would
55:26
like to write in and hear your opinions viewed on air about the things that
55:30
maybe you're frustrated about what's bothering you in education we are a very
55:34
positive show we do like to talk about the positives so you know we try to maintain
55:38
that general vibe within the show.
55:41
So, you know, but are there things that are getting under your skin?
55:44
Are there things that you're looking at and just going, do you know what? Wow, wow.
55:48
I would do this on top of everything else as well. Get it off your chest.
55:52
See, this is a show that's for cleansing, you know, and getting things off your
55:56
chest and feeling good about the next step.
56:00
So, Alan, let's go into part three. And I've got a few sort of honest questions for you.
56:07
And I guess the starting point is, you know, I guess I'm trying to sort of step
56:11
into maybe what people who are listening into the show are starting to think.
56:15
But, you know, we're talking about future ready education. And is that actually
56:20
available to all schools?
56:23
Or is this just a luxury that's going to be for those schools that are really
56:28
well resourced and therefore maybe have a little bit more freedom to experiment?
56:32
Is it going to become a little bit elitist?
56:36
I'll drop back to assessment to kind of illustrate this because there's a lot
56:41
of talk around everything going online and, you know, GCSEs going online and
56:46
everyone can do it online. I don't know.
56:48
I don't personally know any schools.
56:51
I've worked in a number of schools across both the maintained and the independent sector.
56:55
I've never worked in a school that has the infrastructure and the hardware to
57:01
allow an entire cohort of year 11 to sit down at the same time with no glitches
57:09
and access a three-hour exam.
57:14
It's not going to happen because you go back to where's the investment?
57:19
Where's the investment? The proper investment in education. And I don't care
57:23
what color, I'm not talking politics because it's colorblind, isn't it?
57:27
Like you said, there's a lot of words, there's a lot of verbiage around education,
57:34
education, education, very famously.
57:38
And we go back, you know, dear Ken Robinson, you know. Yeah.
57:42
People still quote him. Why do they still quote him?
57:45
Because he's still relevant. You know. I think he's used to.
57:49
And the poem, it always reminds me of the poem Exposure by Wilfred Owen. Do you know that? Yeah.
57:56
Nothing happens. Yeah. You're sitting, waiting.
58:00
You're sitting and waiting. And you build up that cortisol because you're sitting
58:04
and waiting. And if something does happen, it's frantic and it's bang, bang, bang, bang.
58:08
But then you go back to, but nothing happens.
58:12
And you wait and you wait and you wait for change and nothing happens.
58:17
Not genuinely, not genuine.
58:20
Genuine change will only come, as you said, through a change on assessment.
58:27
And the way, why do we assess in the way that we assess?
58:31
So, yeah, it will benefit those schools who are already good at that,
58:36
who do well at that until we change that bit.
58:41
Because it almost doesn't matter. In fact, it makes it pointless.
58:46
Almost doing anything different up to that point, because you've still got to
58:50
clear that hurdle to then go on, you know.
58:55
Joe, one thing that sort of blew my mind is that, you know, the sort of one-to-one
58:58
policy, and as we kind of talk about a lot of the tech within school and ed tech strategy,
59:03
you know, it's 15% of primary schools have an approach of one-to-one devices,
59:10
and 20% of students in senior schools have that same approach.
59:13
You kind of think it's endemic everywhere.
59:16
At the same time, we've got students who've got devices in their pocket, right?
59:19
Between the sort of five to seven-year-old demographic, 25% of students have got phones.
59:25
And that's, it's mind-boggling.
59:28
But okay, so there's a teacher who's listening to everything we're saying.
59:31
And they agree with everything they're saying. And the problem is,
59:34
I think that we maybe work within systems that actively resist some of the change.
59:38
But what would you say to that teacher who's listening, who agrees with everything we said today?
59:44
And they walk back into a school tomorrow where none of this is possible.
59:48
What would you say to them?
59:52
I'll go back to, I think, the little thing earlier on about not,
59:56
you've got to have that individuality in the classroom.
1:00:00
And you go back to Simon Sinek, why are you there? Why are you in that classroom?
1:00:05
You can make a change to how those children learn in front of you in that classroom.
1:00:13
So don't worry that you can't change everything. You can't.
1:00:19
None of us can turn the oil tanker individually.
1:00:23
But we can all give it a little kind of like poke. Maybe all of us giving it
1:00:27
a bit of a poke would do something.
1:00:31
Probably not, but we can at least do it.
1:00:34
That's the interesting thing. It's repositing ourselves, I guess,
1:00:37
as the experts, isn't it? And having a chance to have a say and have a voice.
1:00:42
And schools, you want them to develop those cultures where teachers do have
1:00:46
a voice to be able to make changes.
1:00:49
Look you do you think that that our curriculum is going to equip as we stand
1:00:53
now is our curriculum equipping students for 2040 i mean that's all it is almost
1:00:59
an impossible thing isn't it i think,
1:01:02
no so it's got to be dynamic and responsive i think we were saying this earlier
1:01:08
on and we're talking about other things but it's got to be dynamic and responsive so.
1:01:15
You know, maybe you can't, I mean, not everyone has terminal summative exams
1:01:21
at those points in the lives of children. It's not a global thing.
1:01:26
It's a, we do it, some other places do it.
1:01:29
Let's imagine you didn't do that. You would then be able to respond dynamically
1:01:35
far more quickly to changes that happened within society, within learning, within tech.
1:01:43
Wouldn't you? You'd be able to pivot more quickly
1:01:47
yeah then at the moment you
1:01:49
can't you can't do that let's you know if tech
1:01:52
starts to go exponentially why are
1:01:56
we still doing what we can't ignore what's going
1:02:00
on in the world around you you know you've got to respond to the
1:02:02
world around you so go back to what sticks
1:02:06
what has stuck throughout lots of change
1:02:09
over different periods in recent let's say recent I define recent I don't know
1:02:15
but recent history things that work things that are important things that genuinely
1:02:19
aid cognition and development and self-reflection and deeper learning those
1:02:27
things can we do those things.
1:02:30
And can we do those things without stopping because you've got to make an assessment now?
1:02:36
Continuous assessment, continuous assessment, assessment for learning,
1:02:39
reflection, building, collaboration, working, all of those things working together
1:02:45
without relying on tech to do that for you.
1:02:50
Don't let the tech do it for you, but use the tech and weave the tech in.
1:02:55
We don't know how that's going to change and develop over the next 10 years.
1:03:01
So we're looking at 14. But the short answer is the current system,
1:03:08
in my opinion, won't work for those kids who are currently in early years, key stage ones.
1:03:16
So we're now going to go to a very serious part of the show, Alan.
1:03:26
The job of our listeners who are listening live to the show,
1:03:30
or for those who are catching up by the podcast, you can send me your stories.
1:03:33
My job is using one of these stories, Alan, is to see if I can crack that facade
1:03:38
and put a smile on your face.
1:03:42
We'll see. We'll see how it goes. I can't promise that I won't laugh at this particular story.
1:03:47
So all-round good egg, Louise, who is a fellow host with TTR.
1:03:54
She does a great show. We sort of struck up a little bit of a thing online where
1:03:58
we kind of chat to each other and give a little bit of support.
1:04:01
I asked her if she wouldn't mind if I shared a particular story that she shared with me.
1:04:05
So let's see if this works. And imagine, as I'm telling this,
1:04:09
that I am not this bald person in front of you, but I am, in fact, the person in the story.
1:04:19
So I'm wearing a nice pink wrap dress in the canteen on lunch duty.
1:04:25
The principal and a pastoral lead are having an intense conversation.
1:04:31
One is holding chips. It's chip day. I slide in slas, stemmy lunge to stealth, a chip.
1:04:40
Only the stealth is no longer stealth as my front foot locates a squashed grape.
1:04:46
I slo-mo, I kid you not, actual slo-mo, go down into the splits.
1:04:53
She did point out in brackets that she is ballet trained. The canteen goes deftly silent.
1:04:59
I am hysterically laughing, but no student feels they can laugh.
1:05:03
This inevitably makes it worse.
1:05:06
The principal just casually picks me up from the floor whilst continuing his
1:05:11
conversation, pretending it never happened.
1:05:16
That is good. That is good. Oh, Louise. You are champions.
1:05:24
We broke Alan's facade. Shout out to AQA.
1:05:28
AQA know teachers are the real expert in the classroom.
1:05:32
That's why they work closely with teachers like you, like me,
1:05:34
like us, combining your insight with their assessment expertise to create resources,
1:05:39
tools, training, and guidance that genuinely makes a difference.
1:05:42
They are the UK's most chosen assessment organization.
1:05:46
So Charles Sarr, you already know their work. And as we head into exam season,
1:05:51
AQA, our focus on helping teachers feel supported and feeling ready.
1:05:55
So if you want to find out more about how they're working with teachers,
1:05:59
then please do head to their website to find out more.
1:06:03
So just a few more questions before I really put you on the spot with the quick
1:06:06
fire quiz into part four, Alan.
1:06:10
Like what can teachers do tomorrow? I think we've touched on that a little bit
1:06:14
as we go through and you've eloquently explained some of the things that you
1:06:17
feel that teachers could do in the classroom.
1:06:20
Now, can I ask about one thing that maybe in your role as assistant head for
1:06:24
teaching and learning, one thing that you've changed in teaching and learning
1:06:28
and how that's done in the school?
1:06:30
So, you know, not necessarily a pilot, but something that's happened and and
1:06:33
what were your thoughts on on that as it was implemented.
1:06:37
Yeah so we not a pilot everything starts as a pilot is that fair enough i don't
1:06:42
know so we've we've developed and this this is we go all the way back to the
1:06:47
beginning of our conversation you know very much through collaboration with the whole staff body.
1:06:56
The whole teaching staff body, we've developed working groups which come together
1:07:02
to discuss evidence-informed, cognitive science. You mentioned InnerTap.
1:07:08
Big, I'll give a shout-out, InnerDrive, the InnerDrive group.
1:07:12
They're fantastic. Bradley and Ed.
1:07:15
Second, I think, on the list of radio shows and podcasts, probably.
1:07:20
Yeah, probably, yes. Second, I think, behind TTR. Yes. Other podcasters are
1:07:25
available too. You're probably quite right.
1:07:28
What does Hannah Fry know? What does Amal Rajen know?
1:07:32
Thank you. Yeah. No, that coming
1:07:35
together, and that's had a big impact on culturally our approach to CPD.
1:07:42
So we're able to build CPD programs, and then the guys come together,
1:07:48
and it's deliberately not in faculty or subject or department groups.
1:07:54
It's cross-faculty, cross-department. So you've got colleagues coming together
1:07:58
to talk about evidence-informed practice.
1:08:01
We've had that big focus on metacognition and a drive on that over the last four or five years.
1:08:08
Discussing things with colleagues you wouldn't normally sit down and have those
1:08:12
conversations with, potentially.
1:08:14
And it's led to some global impact on the way that we do certain things around
1:08:25
the school. One of which I'll give you because you say, like what?
1:08:27
So one of those what's I've already named, Katie Kelly.
1:08:31
So this colleague of mine, at the time she was head of PE, teaching BTEC.
1:08:37
Talking about metacognition, metacognitive practice. She comes across the concept
1:08:42
of metacognitive exam wrappers.
1:08:44
We have an insect and it's a bit like a teach meat.
1:08:48
So different colleagues talk about the evidence-informed practice they looked
1:08:54
at the year before and they present that to everyone else.
1:08:57
Different colleagues talk about
1:08:59
different things. We had something about mathematics from the prep school.
1:09:02
We had some talk about reading from early years, reading with
1:09:06
the AL that was a nice overlap Katie stands up and
1:09:08
talks about bringing in exam wrappers
1:09:12
to her BTEC group so before the exam
1:09:15
how are you feeling how is your revision are you
1:09:18
confident etc etc reflection the metacognitive cycle take the assessment get
1:09:25
the feedback how did it go did it go as well as you thought it went if it went
1:09:29
wrong where did it go wrong what are your next steps to improve what can you
1:09:34
keep going that work well.
1:09:36
Colleagues were so engaged with
1:09:39
that i was watching from the side and making notes making notes and we had thought
1:09:43
even before maybe we can another pilot maybe we can push this out in maths or
1:09:49
get them to have a go but such a response that it went went viral so So every year group now,
1:09:59
and it's been going on for a while, when there's a significant assessment point in the year,
1:10:04
the whole year group engages in this metacognitive exam wrapper,
1:10:10
which gives their personal tutors information.
1:10:15
You know, something to talk about with them. And they can have that discussion
1:10:20
because it's the child's, the pupil's own thoughts.
1:10:23
And obviously it leads into departmental and subject discussions with the groups that you're teaching.
1:10:29
So that whole cycle is, yeah, that was good.
1:10:34
Is there anything that maybe surprised you the most out of the sort of different
1:10:38
initiatives that have been put in place?
1:10:41
No, I think we've got a great staff body, you know they're receptive to the
1:10:49
concept of change let's put it that way you know,
1:10:52
and again you know I think I used the phrase earlier on I'm not going to say
1:10:57
all the teachers all the time every day they're not walking around you know
1:11:01
with their nose in a research book or whatever,
1:11:05
but they're open to the concept they're open to the concept of reflection reflective practice because.
1:11:11
What's good you know goose and gander and all of that so we,
1:11:15
we have that within our own current appraisal system
1:11:19
which we're in the process of redressing and addressing and things come up for
1:11:24
review don't they you know so we're thinking like that but i think an essential
1:11:26
part of our own appraisal process is that reflection that metacognitive reflection
1:11:32
why did you start teaching in the first tim why did you start teaching,
1:11:38
What have you learned over the last year or two that has had an impact on your approach to teaching?
1:11:48
How do you measure success within your own teaching?
1:11:53
So all of that, as I say, it is a cultural thing. It's a whole cultural thing.
1:12:00
It's going on with the pupils in the classrooms. it's going
1:12:03
on with the teachers both in the classroom as a
1:12:05
teacher and then you know as a professional outside and
1:12:09
i'll stress the point i'm not pretending they're driving
1:12:13
home going oh must go through my metacognitive cycle but it's something that
1:12:18
we can have those conversations because we know what it means to have those
1:12:23
conversations yeah if that makes sense do you think schools have the power to
1:12:28
have their students prepared for 2030?
1:12:32
Do you think that's in the hands of schools?
1:12:35
A lot of that's down to leadership.
1:12:39
I think every school has the, every, every school has the potential,
1:12:43
don't they? Every child has the potential.
1:12:46
Every teacher has a potential, but what is the leadership?
1:12:50
Where is the leadership taking you? What direction are you, are you moving in at the moment?
1:12:59
Alan, I like, I think the things that I, I, I take away from,
1:13:02
from, from what you've discussed is that, you know, it seems to be such an integral
1:13:08
part of the process to incorporate teachers.
1:13:11
You've shouted at so many of your colleagues who seem to be having such a massive
1:13:14
impact in terms of helping to establish that culture within the school.
1:13:19
That's such an important approach to take within schools, to have staff who
1:13:24
are passionate, who are interested, who are able to celebrate and share that
1:13:27
expertise in order to drive communities forward.
1:13:31
I'm also positive. I think schools are super innovative places full of just brilliant minds.
1:13:37
And I think it comes down to that exact point. It's all about the culture,
1:13:41
right? Of bringing out those experts within the classroom.
1:13:44
Because teachers are innovating and they're innovating
1:13:47
every single day under difficult circumstances, under high stress workloads,
1:13:52
working with a variety of different students and diverse leads.
1:13:54
And it's this wonderful, eclectic, diverse mix of things.
1:13:58
And I think teachers are those people who spearhead innovation.
1:14:01
So I think if people are going to get it right, let's let teachers off the leash
1:14:05
a little bit and let's get our curriculum for 2040.
1:14:08
So a shout out to Hachette Learning because this show is brought to you in partnership
1:14:13
with Hachette Learning. It's such an important part of the process with us.
1:14:16
They are publishers of professional development books and resources that support
1:14:20
great teaching and learning in schools around the world.
1:14:24
So level up your professional development today and visit www.hashitlearning.com
1:14:28
to explore the full range of titles.
1:14:32
Alan, we're now moving to the most frightening. Yeah.
1:14:37
Quickfire quiz. Quickfire quiz. Quickfire quiz.
1:14:43
Alan and to the listeners of the show, Alan, you have one minute in which to
1:14:47
answer as quickly as possible in a way that still makes sense,
1:14:52
as quickly as possible, as many questions as possible.
1:14:56
We have seen attempts from 10 correct answers through to sheer panic.
1:15:03
Are there correct answers? Are there right and wrong? It's not just a... Well, no, no.
1:15:08
Correct is probably too grandos. It's just an answer that vaguely makes some
1:15:12
degree of sense. It's absolutely fine.
1:15:14
As long as you're not just saying banana to everything, then we're okay.
1:15:19
So are you ready-ish? We were born ready, Alan. Born ready.
1:15:27
Okay, Alan, one word that sums up the state of curriculum design in schools right now.
1:15:33
Okay, you have to be careful with pronunciation. I did think about,
1:15:37
because you did let me know this one was coming.
1:15:38
Okay, so the word is flux. There's an L.
1:15:43
You know this is a quick fire quiz, right? Favorite way to get a staff meeting
1:15:47
back on track. Can we go back to what we were talking about originally, please?
1:15:52
If you had to teach a subject you've never taught, what would terrify you the
1:15:56
most? Oh, terrify me the most. Further maths.
1:16:01
Best term break. Is it half term or summer? Oh, no, it's a half term.
1:16:06
I'm a fan of the six term year model.
1:16:10
Okay. Coffee or tea to get through a parents evening? Coffee.
1:16:14
But not too much.
1:16:17
A quote or idea you actually live by? Oh, no, I do. Semi-serious.
1:16:23
I'm not a Quaker, but there's a Quaker. I shall pass this way but once etc so
1:16:28
if you could look at that see the rest that's my why,
1:16:33
I shall pass this way, but once. I'm giving you a score of five.
1:16:37
I'm giving you a score of five. I'll take that. I'll take that.
1:16:39
That's five out of five. Definitely.
1:16:42
Samina is still, sorry, Samina. It's still at the bottom with her mid-quiz panic.
1:16:50
So that left her with three correct answers. Alan, thank you for being a really good sport.
1:16:54
Teachers Talk Connect is back. It's our annual CPD and networking extravaganza.
1:16:59
Join the TTR team on Saturday, the 14th of March in Manchester. The tickets are free.
1:17:05
Generally, what are you waiting for? If you head over to ttradio.org forward
1:17:08
slash connect 2026, you will see that list of incredible speakers.
1:17:13
And this is free CPD. I just think the list of speakers that we've got on different
1:17:17
strands is honestly, it's incredible.
1:17:19
And it's something that if you have the chance to go, please do.
1:17:23
Go and network, go and hear some fantastic speakers.
1:17:26
So those who are listening live to the show, thank you so much for tuning in.
1:17:29
Those who are catching up by podcast, thank you for taking the time.
1:17:32
But please don't forget to like, download, comment, and interact.
1:17:37
It's really important for our show. It's really important for TTR.
1:17:40
With your support, we can absolutely make sure that teachers have a voice in education.
1:17:47
And you've been listening to The Late Show with Tim on Teachers Talk Radio.
1:17:52
I would like to say a huge thank you to my guest, Alan Johnson,
1:17:56
for the time, the effort, but the thought, the process, the eloquence.
1:18:01
Thank you. It's been great. It's been great. You've been a great host. You've made it easy.
1:18:06
Thank you very much. I'll send the cash across.
1:18:10
So thank you so much for tuning in and I'll hopefully see you all next time.
1:18:18
You've been listening to Teachers Talk Radio. Tune in live and listen back at TT Radio.