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How to Write a Novel with Joanna Penn · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever thought about writing a novel?
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Ask any random person and they're bound to say yes.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: And why is that?
0:29
SPEAKER_00: It's because almost everybody has at least one good story in them that they would love to tell through a novel.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thrilled that my guest today, Joanna Penn, is here to walk us through the ins and outs of how to get started writing that novel that you've been thinking about all these years.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Joanna Penn is an award-nominated New York Times and USA-to-day best-selling author of thrillers, writing under the pen name JF Penn.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: She also writes nonfiction for authors.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Joanna is host of the Creative Pen podcast and an award-winning creative entrepreneur.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Her site, thecreativepin.com, has been voted in the top 100 sites for writers by Writers Digest.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm just going to be really upfront with you.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: This conversation was a real highlight for me because I've been following Joanna's work for probably about 10 or 12 years from the very beginning of her journey.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: And it was really, really exciting because I've got all of her books for authors.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: I've been listening to her podcast for probably about a decade, and she has had a massive influence on my own attitude toward writing, and she's really helped me to believe that you can be a full-time writer because I've seen how not only she has done it, but she's encouraged so many other people to do it as well.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: So this conversation and this opportunity was really, really huge for me.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: And I hope that you have as much fun with this conversation as I did.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: So what we're going to talk about in this conversation is Joanna's brand new book, How to Write a Novel.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: And I get to ask her all my questions about writing a novel, such as how writing a novel changes you, whether you should use discovery writing or outlining, how to choose a story structure method, how to get over the fear of being judged, and much more.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: So if you've ever thought about writing a novel, this episode is absolutely for you.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: So here's my conversation with the amazing Joanna Penn.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Joanna, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: It is a massive honor to have you here.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: I've been following your stuff for I think at least a decade now.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So this is our very first conversation.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Glad to have you here.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks so much for having me on, Kent.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's always funny to think how much has changed in a decade, like in our own creative lives as well as the world.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: But so yeah, good to talk today.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: It has been a blast to see your journey over the last.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Let's see, I think you started podcasting in 2009.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes, indeed.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's been really fun to see your journey over those years.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: And I don't even know how to summarize all the things that I've learned from you and how many hours I've spent listening to your podcast, and I've got all your books.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure it feels weird for you to hear somebody say that sometimes, but it's really true.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Like you've had a legitimate, really big impact on my life in terms of knowing what's possible and all the things I've learned from you and everything.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So I just want to take take a minute up front in this episode to say thank you for all the ways you've invested into my life as well as the lives of countless other many, many thousands of people.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: And I want to encourage people then, and you obviously and the listeners, that literally all I have done since the beginning is share what I learn along the way as I learn it.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: And things have just unfolded in the way that life does.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I did set out back in the day to leave my job and become a writer, but I had no clue what my podcast would turn into, what my business would turn into.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And I guess all I've done is try and share lessons learned and uh tips along the way.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And uh obviously so much has changed in self-publishing and writing uh over the last, well, I started writing in 2006, uh, started publishing in 2008.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, it's been it's been 15 years now, which is kind of crazy, more than 15 years.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, uh I hope that encourages people because I think we all have something to share.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: And even if you're just one step ahead of people in the journey, you can help the people uh coming behind you wherever you are on the path.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: What has been the most surprising thing to you, especially over the last, let's say, five or six years, as you know, culture and technology has changed so quickly.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Has there been any anything on your journey that has really been a massive surprise?
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think surprise is a difficult one because well, uh they say the pandemic, that was a surprise.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Very true.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, maybe that was it.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Life has surprises.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: I think my approach to writing and even market book marketing, for example, and self-publishing has been one of curiosity.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: And so because I'm curious, I think I'm always looking at what's ahead, and so I'm rarely surprised um by what happens.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm almost disappointed that things don't happen faster.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: So, one example would be podcasting.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: I as you mentioned, I started podcasting in 2009, and it was, I mean, it was hardly even called podcasting back then.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was sort of downloadable audio from your website, and it was kind of a surprise to me that it took five, six years before podcasting really took off in the mainstream.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: And now it's crazy because I'm sure you get pitched as well.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: I get pitched like five, ten times a day.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, big publishing houses now want authors to come on podcasts, and it's almost like the publishing industry has only just discovered podcasting in the last year, like since 2021.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, I get I used to get pictures from authors, but now I get pictures from big time publicists.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like that how how is it that things take so long to be accepted in various in various industries?
6:03
SPEAKER_01: And so this encourages me though, but like another example is uh, you know, I started self-publishing in 2008 before even the international Kindle.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was the beginning of the mobile, you know, 2007 was when the iPhone came out, when the first Kindle came out, and and I was like, yay, gonna jump on that.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: And I published on SmashWords back in the day, and and I was like, this is amazing.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And again, I was treated like a pariah for years by um many authors and people in the in traditional publishing industry.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: And then uh it was probably about 20, well, 2012, I started getting some interest, and then by sort of 2015, 2016, regularly people were asking me to speak at events um that would have once just been traditional publishing.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: And and now it's it feels like uh as we speak in 2022, it feels like self-publishing is just part of the industry now.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: It's just another way, and a lot of traditionally published authors self-publish.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the biggest authors in the world right now, Colleen Hoover, who is like the queen of TikTok, uh, he's just all over the charts, she started out in self-publishing.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a very different world.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think coming back to your question, surprise, no, it's sort of disappointment that things don't happen quicker is possibly the the other thing.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's interesting because I think that is the thing that I appreciate about you so much.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I love your content, and again, I think I've got all your books for writers, but you have a very positive approach to technological change and cultural shifts and things that are happening, whereas I feel like in a lot of the author and publishing world, there's there's kind of a a set-in fear about change.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: But you are always a proponent and I would even say a champion of embracing technology, using technology for our advantage.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate that about you because you're kind of like the voice crying out in the wilderness that, hey, it's all gonna be okay, and there are a lot of cool things happening and we should embrace these changes.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: So so I I appreciate that perspective that you bring to all this.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, again, that's curiosity.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: And also, I've always, I mean, I never wanted a business with employees.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's always been about leverage.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: How can we leverage us as individual people in order to achieve the creative goals that we want to achieve, but also the financial goals we want to achieve?
8:27
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I write books, and that's what I do.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Like this morning, I was at the writing cafe editing a short story in my arcane uh thriller series.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: And then obviously now you and I are talking via the internet across across half the world, basically.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: And so I guess I've always felt like how do we leverage what we can do?
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, the internet and Amazon and the Kindle and the mobile devices, I mean, all of these things have enabled us to make a living.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I even think about something like PayPal, which enable was really the first uh company to enable people in different countries to earn in different currencies.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: So I make most of my income in US dollars.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do a lot of transactions through PayPal.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Now that just wasn't, I mean, I do remember actually back in 2006, 2000, you know, early 2000s, you had to get this merchant account.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: You it was absolute nightmare to try and do anything in foreign currency, let alone take a credit card transaction over the internet.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: That just didn't happen.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's kind of crazy now when we think how much easier it is to do business, to do marketing, to publish our books, even to research.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, you and I are both old enough to know, to remember that, you know, back in college when the research was physical books and physical libraries.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's still wonderful when I have a lot of physical books, but uh, I mean, I start my stories now online.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, the short story, which is hilarious, you're like this, have it with your background with Divinity.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I it's about um the digital scanning of the Vatican archives, which is an actual project.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: They're digitizing all of those Vatican documents and books and in order to find things because it's impossible to find things otherwise.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like the uh continuation of embracing technology to help us continues.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: And if uh a place like the Vatican is even doing it, then uh who are we not to?
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And that that's a great point.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great point.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess we should talk about your new book, How to Write a Novel.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I could talk to you for hours because I feel like I know you really well.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds weird coming on a podcast when you don't really know somebody.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: But I was excited because you made your new book, How to Write a Novel, available for people to order directly from you.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And I was so excited because I had never done that before.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: So when I got this in the mail, I like tore the package open and was like, man, I got this really, really fast.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, I really, really love this book because I have been thinking about writing a novel for a long time.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And this has given me what I feel like is a really clear pathway.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: So if we can, I'd love to dive into some questions based on this book because I know this is what you're promoting now, but also because fiction is very close to your heart.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: How many fiction books have you written at this point?
11:17
SPEAKER_00: It's it's like 25, is that correct?
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's difficult.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: It's difficult because there's full-length novels, there's novellas, there's short stories.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: I've co-written some books.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it is sort of mid-twenties at at this point.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, but um yeah, it's fun, um by the way, I'm glad you love the book.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, my store is creativepenbooks.com if people are interested.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: And I I love that edition as well.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm really happy, happy you got that.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: But yes, happy to answer questions about the content.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I have that I have really appreciated about your content over the years, and this doesn't just relate to the book, but this is actually it was so much fun to open up the book, and literally this is the first thing in the book, is there's something that you've said many times before, which is measure your life by what you create.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's such a different way of looking at things because so oftentimes in this online entrepreneur space and author space, the main thing that people measure their lives by is their income or their followers or their subscribers or or whatever the case may be.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: But I just I love how you emphasize the importance of measuring your life by what you create.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if you can can share some of your heart behind that and more what you mean.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: And um it is something that I've felt for many years.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: And basically in my old day job, I I used to implement accounts payable into large companies and small companies and implement software packages.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: And it was a very well-paid job, you know.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: I made six-figure salary, I got all the benefits uh by my mid-30s.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, we had a house, we had an investment property, we were doing all the things that you were meant to do.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: But what I felt was every day I did my job, well, first of all, it was software.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: So with software, it gets overwritten within a year, two years, or the company changes their just their mind about what software package to use.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like everything I did in my day job disappeared quite quickly, and that was the work I did.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: And then what I had to show for it, which was money, which was great, and we all need to work to make money to pay the bills and to live our lives.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: But I just felt like everything I did disappeared, and I just felt like there had to be more, and I'd always wanted to be more creative, you know.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: My my dad was a sculptor originally, he he draws, he's a he's a printmaker, and so I I come from a pretty artistic family, but I I felt like I wasn't very creative, and so when I looked at why I was feeling so miserable with my life at the time, it was like, do you know what?
13:46
SPEAKER_01: I just have nothing to show for the last whatever it was, say 15 years of my life.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: So I want to make something.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And when I wrote my first book and held that book in my hand, and you know, when I made this, it's that feeling of I made this as an adult that you get as a child, and then you're an adult and you you don't get that so much.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of got addicted to that feeling, and now it's almost like every year, of course, we still I still make the money.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: I I run a business, so I I get my money, I pay my bills, I do all the things I did when I had a day job, but I can also look at the pile of books on my desk or the um, you know, yeah, literally I have a vanity shelf and the all the books that I have and the stories and like I also consider my podcast part of my body of work um because I do feel like that has an impact.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: As you said, you've you've been listening to my show.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, okay, look at what I have created, and that makes me it just makes me happy.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: And so it's both intrinsic um reward because I feel happy that I've done these things, and also extrinsic reward because I get paid.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I do measure it in that way too.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's just more a sort of attitude to life, and also that I have on my wall here create a body of work I'm proud of.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I weigh everything up against that.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, does whatever I am creating fit into my body of work in some way?
15:14
SPEAKER_01: And will I be proud of that?
15:16
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I hope that frames it for you.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And there's also an element to this, isn't there, where you're kind of outliving yourself because if if you only are employed by someone else, you're doing work for them, particularly if it's in if it's in the tech space or something like that, where it's gonna be replaced quickly.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: When you're writing or when you're creating music or or painting or art, that's gonna outlive you and be around long after your earthly life is gone, which I think is another thing that is so compelling about this concept.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, we hope so.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh I definitely hope that.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we can never know what happens after we die.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, but I did when I started, it was like I want to impact people while I'm alive.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: So you're talking to me because my work has touched you in some way.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: So I guess part of me doesn't even worry about things outliving me.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: It's more what can I do in my life?
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and great if things go on after I die, but yeah, we can never guarantee that for sure.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: That's very true.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: That's very, very true.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I wonder are my great-grandkids in the year 2100, are they gonna see my Facebook posts?
16:24
SPEAKER_00: And the answer is probably not.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: They probably they might not even know your name.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many people know the name of their great grandparents?
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Right, right, exactly.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: And is Facebook even going to be around?
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I do I do think that's important to remember, you know, we get a bit obsessed sometimes about building legacy.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, let's just try and impact people now and share something now that might help someone now.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I I try and think that way anyway.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me dive into some questions related to the book.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: And um unfortunately we don't have three hours for this conversation.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I have hours worth of of things that have really impacted me from the book.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: But let me start out with this question.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: So for people who really so obviously this is a podcast for writers, and we talk a lot about writing nonfiction on this show.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: How does writing a novel change you in a way that writing nonfiction doesn't?
17:18
SPEAKER_00: I I and I'm not even sure what I'm asking with that question, except that there seems to be something that is really, really just a different deal with writing fiction and stories and novels rather than just writing educational nonfiction.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Is there a way that that fiction really can change us in a way that nonfiction doesn't?
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think there is.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is a great question.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: And you you've definitely put your finger on something here.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: And I I think in nonfiction, we are generally telling our truth with a small t.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about lessons from our experience, we're trying to help people with particular things.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: So, like how to write a novel is a lot of my experience in writing a novel.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to tell you my experience and help you with yours.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: So it's like true, our truth with a small t.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And then in fiction, I feel like we're telling the truth with a big T.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: So even though it's a fictional story, we're tackling these deeper underlying questions that we may spend our whole lives pondering about.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh, um perhaps we can only work it out in a story.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: So for me, pretty much all my books, all my fiction as JF Penn are about the question of the nature of good versus evil, of uh triumphing over the monsters.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a it's a I always write about faith and the supernatural in the religious sense, but you know, sort of what is there out there in the world?
18:51
SPEAKER_01: And I I'm not a Christian, I don't adhere to any specific uh faith or or religion, but I'm a seeker and I ask these sort of questions about the nature of being, the nature of life, and but yeah, those questions sit underneath my stories.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, my book Desecration, it's um a murder mystery, it's a got detective in it, it's set in London.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it is a you know detective story on the outside, but the deeper message is about what is the meaning of our human physical flesh after death.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: Does it, you know, why are we so squeamish about the dead when I think we feel like actually we're not there anymore?
19:31
SPEAKER_01: So if we feel like we are gone, why are we so bothered about body parts in jars and that kind of thing?
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like coming back to your question, it you know, instead of writing an essay about the meaning of the physical body, I write a story where the characters have body modification and there's corpse art and there's the history of anatomy and all the things that kind of come together where the reader can make up their own mind or can just read a detective story.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And does that make sense?
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely it makes sense.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: So there's a sense in storytelling where you get to talk about some of the deeper things that you're really, really interested in, whereas whatever kind of nonfiction that you write, those themes and those ideas and those questions might not actually fit into that.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: So there's kind of a freedom that you get with storytelling.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Is that a fair way of saying that?
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I think that this discussion of author voice, which comes up a lot in writing, I really feel like one of the noticeable things about an author voice is the are the themes that the author tackles again and again and again in their work.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: And I do feel that most writers have underlying themes that come across in all of their work and uh recognizably their voice.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So when I I just wanted to write a short story a couple of weeks ago, and this idea about the Vatican came up, and it's like that is totally a JF Penn story because I'm kind of obsessed about the Vatican secret archives, and uh I write about tombs and crypts and all of these types of interesting things and the Templars and these things come up in my work, and that's because I'm fascinated with them.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: But I don't write non-fiction books on these types of things.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think there's um there's a there's a difference in our in our interests and also a difference in our intent.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: So, with like with how to write a novel, I want to help you to write a novel.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: With my fiction and my stories, I want to let you escape.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: I write thrillers, they are about escape.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Fiction is about escaping your life.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh my goodness, the news is depressing.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Let's read a story and escape for 10 minutes, an hour, or however long, um, to read the the book.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: And so they are very, very different um intents.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that has to go behind it too.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: So let's say someone listening, they have an idea for a story or they feel Really motivated to write a novel, but they're not sure how to go about it.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: So this is the million dollar question that uh Wait, that's the whole book.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: How does somebody go about figuring out how they're actually going to write their story?
22:17
SPEAKER_00: And what I'm asking here is should you be a plotter or a panther or somewhere in between?
22:21
SPEAKER_00: And for those who are new to this terminology, panting is is in the book you call it discovery writing, which is discovering the story as you go along.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: Plotting, of course, is outlining your story and then writing to that.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: How does somebody know which approach is going to work correctly for them if they have never written a novel before?
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, what I would say is a lot of this stuff you can't even discover or find out, let's say, before you try it.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it will be to do with how it feels for you.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: And I do think the way we feel about writing and the way we feel about different things can guide us.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason like I know that I am not a plotter is that I can't like the thought of sitting down with a spreadsheet.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Like I do authors who sit down with a spreadsheet and plot their novels like that.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, almost, I mean, JK Rowling with the Harry Potter book, she has a had a like a hand-drawn type spreadsheet.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, amazing, but that just makes me go, uh no, thank you.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: That's just horrible.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas Stephen King, for example, he has, he's like, oh, there's a character in a situation, and then he starts writing.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of where I am, or I come up with um a uh uh something happens.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: So going back to the book desecration that I mentioned, I went to this um museum, it was an anatomy museum, there were all these body parts in jars, and I was like, whoa, that's weird.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh, what if there was an actual you know, a murder in this uh museum surrounded by all these body parts?
23:53
SPEAKER_01: What would that mean?
23:54
SPEAKER_01: And then I start researching.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: So the point is, the answer to the question is you we can't know until you try something.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: So everyone who wants to write a novel has some kind of spark.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: And for someone, it might be there's this character, and they really they they're like, oh my goodness, what would happen with this character?
24:13
SPEAKER_01: So for example, I uh have been thinking about this war photographer.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I read a memoir about a war photographer, and I'm like, okay, that's a weird character.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, who does that?
24:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm kind of obsessed with that character at some point that'll appear in a book.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: But another thing might be place.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: So, like I said, the Vatican Secret Archives, I'm totally fascinated with that.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And with the I I saw a news article that said they were all getting scanned, and I'm like, wow, what if something happens and you find this document in the scanning?
24:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's like a what if question, and like what would that document say?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: What would be a cool thing that that would say?
24:49
SPEAKER_01: So that's a character, that's a setting, that's like a theme you want to explore, um, a place that you might go to, uh, or uh a big question, or tapping into things like uh movies that you like or other books that you read.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: So you you just have to find wherever that original point is.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think I talk about this in the beginning of how to write a novel, which is it is not a linear process, it is especially at the beginning.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: It there has you start somewhere.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: So let's say you start with a plot idea, like um, you know, we find this document in the Vatican archives, then you have to go to the character because you have to have characters in novels.
25:29
unknown: Yes.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then you're like, okay, so now I've got a kind of a plot and a character, and then it's like, okay, well, then, and this is my recommendation to everyone is you just give it a go, as in set a timer, say for five minutes, 10 minutes, and you just start writing.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like so much of the resistance in writing fiction comes from over-analysing everything.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you literally just set a timer and wrote for 10 minutes, you would figure stuff out, and you would just do that over and over again until you have a novel.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: And of course, remember the editing process, you clear all this stuff up later.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: And look, to be honest, that first novel, it is a complete mess.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of an addictive process too.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: I feel like with non-fiction, it can be a much more linear process.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: But even if you're a plotter, fiction can go off on these tangents and you have to keep bringing it back.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it is a it's very, very different.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: But like you've said there, that you're interested in writing a novel.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: When I mention there all the sparks that might happen, what what comes up for you?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: One of the ideas that I have had for a long time actually is um is writing some short stories that or short, well, they wouldn't even be novels, they would be more like parable type of stories.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Um that would be helping people to understand the creative process or uh how to go about the writing process or something like that.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: I love short parable type books like um like The Go Giver is is one of those type of stories that I really like.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh a guy named John Gordon writes a lot of those kinds of stories, like one book called The Energy Bust, where basically they're taking teaching principles and they write a story around those.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: A lot of business books are written in that kind of style.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And I find that I'm just I'm really interested in those kinds of books.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: I know it's a whole different genre than so forth.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's not fiction.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: I think it's very, very important with fiction is you are not lecturing people.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: You're not trying to bash them overhead the head with some message.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: That's not what you're doing.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: You are it there's a character in a situation, there's emotion, they have to overcome some conflict.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And if there are themes that come up in that, then great.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like the novel, it like it doesn't have to mean anything as well.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: It can just be an adventure or a romance or a science fiction thing with a cool spaceship or aliens.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is that that's what I mean about the intent.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: So when we talked about escape, that's the the feeling.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: So if someone's escaping from reality, that's why they're reading, versus someone who's like, I like let's take a spiritual parable.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm reading to edify my faith, or I'm reading to get better at business.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel like we have to consider the intent of the reader in picking up the book.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's for me, fiction is a very, very different intent than picking up, say, a parable.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Do you get what I mean?
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, completely, completely.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: When you're working on a novel, how do you think about the storytelling method or the story structure that you're going to use?
28:40
SPEAKER_00: So, and I will confess, one place that I have gotten really confused over the years, and probably part of this is because I have a lot of writing craft books, which I think there's kind of a danger in that when you just collect writing craft books, especially books on storytelling and and film structure and you know all those kinds of things.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: How do you know what what method you're going to use in terms of using a three-act structure or going with something like the hero's journey or the heroine's journey?
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Or or is it just really easy to get bogged down with all that stuff and you just kind of have to pick something and go with it?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm the same as you.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: I and I still, I mean, we all we're craftspeople, so we buy all the books and we read all the books, and you can get completely overwhelmed.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, that chapter in the book, there is one chapter on structure, and it's quite short.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, this is the point.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, people write tomes and tomes.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been on Robert McKee's story seminar, which is like multi-day.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've gone real deep in all this stuff.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: And in the end, it really is simple.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's like there's a character and they want something, and someone or something gets in the way, there's a whole load of conflict, and then the character either succeeds or fails.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: That is a story.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: And so if you keep it and there's a beginning, middle, and an end, and that's a three-ac structure.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: And uh look, when we're readers, and I really don't suggest people write a novel unless they read a lot of novels, um, but when we're readers, we almost know this instinctively.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we watch a lot of good TV now, you know, we're so lucky now with the great TV, there it's yeah, I mean it's amazing.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: So you know instinctively what is a good story, and what I find is you know, you can write if you keep it in mind that you have this kind of basic thing, the character and the the the conflict and all of that, then you can figure it out later in the editing process.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: But I would say that these story structure books are do overcomplicate the process, and so many writers just get bogged down in the whole thing.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, the most successful fiction authors I think just write and they focus much more on emotion, character emotion, making the reader feel something.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't have to be like on page 16 there's a turning point, and the you know, act one climax does this.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, yeah, I I think we just have to relax a lot more into understanding that we know story and we can figure it out in the edit.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I appreciated most about your book, How to Write a Novel, is that you wrote a whole bunch of novels before you actually wrote a book on how to write a novel, which I think is is kind of funny because as I look on my bookshelf, which is just a few feet away here, there's a lot of a lot of storytelling and novel writing books and craft books that were written by people who really haven't written any novels.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Which I'm kind of scratching my head going, wait a minute, something's kind of off here.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you said that.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's really funny because I've actually had the draft of this book for uh about five years, and I have not been ready to write it because and I felt this resistance over and over again because I've really been waiting until I felt more confident that I could write this book, and it's very funny because um why I did it was um my first three novels, which I wrote 2009 to like 2012, I rewrote those first three novels earlier this year.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: So this uh 2022 editions of Stone of Fire, Crypt of Bone, and Ark of Blood, which are my first three arcane thrillers, and in rewriting those books, and they were fine, you know, they were good books, they had good reviews, but I felt like I have become a better writer.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: I need to rewrite those books.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: So I did, and when I rewrote them, I realized how much I had learned in over the last sort of 12 years or whatever it was.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: So I decided that now I could write how to write a novel, and I felt like I knew enough to be able to make sense of the whole thing.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: But you know, sometimes it takes a long time for it to make sense to us, and teaching other people can really help us embed our knowledge.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: So actually, I've I found that writing the book has helped me as well.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: It helped me sort of get down everything I thought, and so yeah, I almost feel like now as we speak in sort of um second half of 2022, I'm almost moving into a different phase of my career because I'm more confident in my fiction than perhaps I even was six months ago because it's embedded a lot of things in my head, which uh is quite funny really.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: But I'm glad you noticed that about the books.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: And I guess this would be another tip with people is uh, and also, you know, I've been a full-time author entrepreneur since 2011, so over a decade now.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of people writing books on how to make money writing who are not full-time writers.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: True, very true.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, um, you know, or people writing books on advertising who uh don't have any books to advertise and all of this kind of thing.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's true in any niche, I think.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we should always examine who we want to learn from.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: And also, I would say, like, obviously, if someone does love spreadsheets and they want to do their novel with spreadsheets, maybe my book on how to write a novel is is not the one for them.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Well, I was so glad to that you came out with this book because honestly, every time that you come out with a book on something, I I kind of breathe a sigh of relief because I know that you have already processed all the info out there and you're on the cutting edge of things.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: And so I basically know, okay, if Joanna Penn's got a book out on something, I can basically ditch all my other books because she has processed all that.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And with the novel book, it was and I I'm I'm being totally serious.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: With the novel book, I especially felt that way because I feel like I've gotten really hung up over the years with, you know, should you do a hero's journey or how should you structure it?
34:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just getting lost in things.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I can get rid of all the other stuff because she has processed all that and she's going to give it to me straight in a very simple and direct way.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And I love your communication style because of that, because you're just you make things so simple and doable for the average person, and you make it feel like we can actually do it.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Which is not something every author does.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: A lot of these kind of craft books, you sort of feel like you're being lectured to by this university professor who's a lot smarter than you, and you're kind of like, well, I don't think I really understand this, but so I appreciate that about you a lot.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you for that.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: And I really do try to simplify things.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: That is definitely my nonfiction style.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it what's so hilarious is after I finish a non-fiction, when I write books, any books, fiction, non-fiction, I do buy a lot of books.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh in Kindle form, I listen to audiobooks and I buy a lot of print books too.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: When I finished how to write a novel, I went through all my bookshelves and I got rid of, I kid you not, like four supermarket plastic bags full of books on writing.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, because I felt like, and like for example, like we said about the structure, I had, you know, a couple of those bags were full of structure books that I bought thinking this is how I have to do it, and yet that method did not work for me.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: And so this would be another uh point for people listening.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: We're not saying that my book is the be all and end all either, of course.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: But what I would say is don't overcomplicate things.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, we know what a story is, you know.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: You if you've got kids, you tell your kids.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: If you go to church, you hear it every Sunday.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, we read books, we watch TV.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: We know what a story is.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: Like we need to stop overcomplicating it and yeah, sit down, write some stuff.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: I just love that advice so much.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to respect your time, so I've just got a couple more questions here.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: One, which is a burning question in my mind, is let's say somebody has an idea for a novel and they're thinking about, okay, the Harry Potter books were a series.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, Joanna Penn's done series before.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: When you have not written that first novel yet, but you think it could be a series, does that change how you approach that first novel, or should you just go ahead and do it and then you can always do a series later?
37:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, I think it depends on what you like to read.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: So you're asking you said that's a burning question.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: So do you read in series?
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, uh yeah, I I think I do.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: I I love book series.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh I love books that are all tied together.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: And as far as how the stories are linked and if the characterizations continued from one thing to another and and all that.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would say so.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, see, I think that's a really good feeling, is that you really like that.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: And then you think about okay, is this episodic?
38:01
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, when I wrote Stone of Fire, I wanted it to be a kind of Dan Brown style thriller, religious conspiracy thriller.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I also knew that I wanted my secret agency, my arcane secret agency.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, it's a secret agency, and I like Bond films, for example.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, I can make this, there are secret agents in the agency.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: So of course, this is going to live on through multiple books.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: So I kind of knew right writing that that that's that's the type of thing I like to read, that's the type of thing I like to watch on TV.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then what has happened over time is that I have also stories have come up that have been standalone.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: So Risen Gods, which I co-wrote with Jay Thorne, um, it is set in New Zealand and it is it's kind of a dark fantasy YA book, and it has a very clear ending.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like if there is a clear story arc where there is a clear ending, then it it's not a series, it doesn't have to be a series, and then sometimes um Map of Shadows, which is set here in Bath in England, um, it I thought that was going to be a standalone, and then I finished it and it didn't finish.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, oh, maybe it's a series.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: And then by the end of the second book, I realized it was a trilogy.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: So this is the what I would say is you're absolutely right, you don't have to decide up front, but the in terms of the way that you deal with the characters, so um, let's say I mean fantasy is a great example, like Game of Thrones.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: Game of Thrones is a it has an ending, so it's not an episodic series.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: So, like a detective novel can be is an episodic series because the detective comes back over and over again in every episode um or every book, but then something like Game of Thrones, it has a has multiple books, but it starts and it finishes, it's got a very clear ending.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you also have to think about what genre you're writing in, what um how you like romance authors are brilliant this way because of course every single romance has a sort of clear ending, which is they they get married usually, it's a happily ever after, or they end up together.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, but what romance writers do is they'll say, set it in a small town, and or the characters will be sisters or brothers, or you know, from a certain clan or whatever.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: So there are ways to link your novels together, even if they're not a series.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: But again, I think you are, and maybe people listening, are sort of overcomplicating it before they're starting.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas what I find is that what I think before I start is not what it turns into later.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: And the main thing is getting the words in, setting the time in your calendar, turning up and spending that time on your book, and then it will develop um as it goes.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Boy, that's really good advice.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: And it is so easy to just get paralyzed by this and we overcomplicate it.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it's getting worse in a way because there's such a proliferation of teaching materials and books and conferences and podcasts, you know, my podcast being one of them.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: Which mine.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is we're you know, we're throwing so much stuff at writers, but at the end of the day, you just have to put your behind in the chair and just get it done.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: And I do think that if you want to write a novel, um uh whether it's your first novel or your 30th novel, like realistically, it's just about setting aside time in your calendar.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Like I said this morning, I got up, I was at the cafe when it opened, I had my edits to do, I did like 25 pages of edits, and then I left.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I turned up for that appointment with my story.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: And I do feel like that's what we have to do.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like this is the time I spend on my fiction.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: And for me, like I write fiction as JF Penn and my non-fiction is Joanna Penn.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: And I almost find that really helps me because I'm like, okay, this morning I was JF Penn, and now you're interviewing Joanna Penn, and these are different aspects of my business, these are different ways I spend my time.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if I go to a music, like when I went to the Vatican, I went to the Vatican as JF Penn.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, this kind of thing.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like that can also help people.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, either using a different variant of your name or thinking, okay, this is me, the fiction author, I give myself permission to just spend this time noodling or researching or just writing something that I may never use, but is like a little character sketch or some dialogue or whatever.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, let's just set aside some time for that novel and then sit down or stand up or whatever and do some writing and it will emerge.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, it is so much fun.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: I just got the bug, and I think if people haven't written their novels yet and it's burning on your heart, then just do it.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Come on, sit down, do some words.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: You'll be so you'll be so proud of yourself.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: So you have this new book out, and obviously you're always working on fiction.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: You have the podcast.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: What can we expect next from the mind of Joanna Penn over the next year or two?
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Any clues you could give us about some cool things that you're working on?
43:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, as we record this middle of August 2022, I am off walking the Camino de Santiago in a couple of weeks.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: The Portuguese route uh is a pilgrimage from Porto uh in Portugal up to Santiago de Combosela in Spain, and it's my third pilgrimage over the last three years and since the pandemic started.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: So I'm actually writing a pilgrimage memoir, which is completely different.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I will be writing it, I think, as JF Penn.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: So uh, because the themes of religion and faith and seeking are very much uh part of my stories.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, I wrote Tomb of Relics when I visited Canterbury after that pilgrimage.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh so yeah, my next book will be a pilgrimage memoir.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: I've also got um a couple of novels that I'm working on after this short story.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: The this short story is called Soldiers of God.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's based on um an actual paper bull from the medieval times.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, like I've got so many books.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: I've probably got about 17 folders in in my uh drive under JF Pen, which have all these ideas in I want to write.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I've always got more.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: And for Joanna Penn, in terms of the nonfiction, I do have a book that I have about 30,000 words on on writing on the shadow side.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask about that.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's literally I was gonna ask if that was coming at some point.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, I kind of feel like this how to write a novel book has been so long in coming because there's a moment when you feel like I'm committing to this book.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: And and um because I'm a discovery writer, I have to like, okay, I'm committing.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: This is my next book.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like maybe 2023 will be the shadow book here.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: But it's funny, I still I still feel like I have a lot to learn, and there's a lot of research that goes into these things.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, sometimes we have to wait until we're ready.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, who who knows?
45:06
SPEAKER_01: I guess suffice to say there's more books on the way.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm not done yet.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm glad to hear there is definitely more space on my shelf for Joanna Pen and JF Penn books.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: And if I don't have space, I will happily make space because Oh, good.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: You're one of those people where whenever you come out with something, I just automatically get it.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: That's just how it is.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: And I was looking forward to that.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, then we're gonna look forward to your novel, which it sounds like you might get around to at some point.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: I I absolutely will get around to at some point.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Now that I am in my business full time, uh obviously I go stripe for clients and I've got several projects in the works, but I have more time to do that kind of a thing.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate your book, How to Write a Novel.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: It's given me the courage to go forth with this and finally get this done.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: And I just want to kind of wrap up this conversation, Joanna, just by saying I really have appreciated the way that you have spoken into my life over the years.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: You've had a and I know we say this a lot of times when we do podcast interviews, and you say similar things to people on your show about how they've helped you and so forth.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: But but in this case, I'm I'm being extra sincere about it because I've been following your stuff for so long, and you have helped to give me the confidence and the knowledge and and a pathway to reach my goals as a writer or begin reaching them.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: So just a very, very sincere thank you.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: I really have appreciated that.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh well, thank you so much for having me.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: And if if people are interested, obviously how to write a novel is uh everywhere and also on my own store, creativepenbooks.com.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: And in terms of the podcast, just search your app for the Creative Pen podcast, pen with a double N.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, hopefully some people will come over and check that out.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you again, Joanna.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute pleasure.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Ken.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: This was a real honor getting to interview one of my writing mentors and heroes, Joanna Penn.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: If I had to pick just one takeaway from this conversation, I would say it's this.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna write a novel, you can't get bogged down and get paralyzed by all the different ways that you can structure your story and all the different things that you can do.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: You just have to get started and dive in.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think as I mentioned in this conversation, I have have before gotten really, really bogged down in trying to write a story.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh so much so that I think it stalled me out for two or three or even four years on this one single book, as crazy as that sounds.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: So her advice is really, really timely for me because as I mentioned in this conversation, I'm thinking about a novel that I'm planning on writing at some point.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: And this was so, so helpful for me.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: So I hope it's been helpful for you as well.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: I want to thank Joanna for taking the time to do this conversation.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: She's got a lot going on and she travels all over the world.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: She has um super popular podcasts, she writes a ton of books.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: So it really meant a lot that she was able to take time to have this conversation with me.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: So thank you, Joanna.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: And for everybody else listening, of course, I want to encourage you to grab Joanna's free author blueprint 2.0, which is available at thecreative pen, that's double in dot com.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: And also check out her podcast, which is the Creative Pin Podcast, and make sure you grab her brand new book, How to Write a Novel.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: It's really, really super good.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: And I promise, if you have been thinking about writing a novel, it is going to become your number one resource because it's really, really fantastic.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: Hey, thanks so much for listening.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: As always, I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to the Daily Writer Podcast, and I will see you in the next episode.