Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: She Gave Up Her Daughter for a Better Life. Years Later, She Was Asked for DNA to Identify Her Body and Discovered the Truth About Who Adopted Her

Transcript

Killer Thriller Docu: She Gave Up Her Daughter for a Better Life. Years Later, She Was Asked for DNA to Identify Her Body and Discovered the Truth About Who Adopted Her · Legally Brunette

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Hi, you guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller doc You Edition.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: I am your host, Jennifer Fessler. You guys, today is
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: a hard one. We are diving into the haunting and
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: deeply emotional documentary Into the Fire the Lost Daughter. This one.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I've lost a lot of sleep over this one. It
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: tells the true story of a mother who plays her
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: daughter for adoption as a teenager and only to learn
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: decades later that her daughter had mysteriously disappeared at the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: age of fourteen. So what begins is a missing person's
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: case quickly unravels into something far more disturbing. Before her
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: disappearance in nineteen eighty nine, Now I'm gonna say her
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: name a million times the wrong way because it's spelled
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: a U n d ria. So they change her adopted
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: parents change it to Andrea. I don't know that that
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: makes me want to That already makes me hate them.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: But anyway, So Andrea had accused her adoptive father, Dennis,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, allegations that were never fully investigated at
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the time, and shortly after she vanished, the case went
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: cold for years, so leaving her birth mother without answers.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: And anyway, she ends up this unbelievable woman, Kathy. She
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: launches her own investigation, and she teams up with this
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: like this sleuth, that's what they call him, like a
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: dedicated web sleuth. And they what they uncover is chilling,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: horrifying and fascinating. Also, I have to say, but anyway,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: it's they just bring all this renewed attention to this
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: cold case and starts to like expose other cold cases.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: And anyway, I am so excited to talk to the
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: executive producer. Her name is Nile Capello. And I have
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of questions. I need a lot of a
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot of questions. I need a lot
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: of things answer, things answered. I need to sort of
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: wash out a lot.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not well. I'm not well, all right,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: So let's bring a Nile. Hi.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: Hello, Hie.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: So nice to meet you. Thank you so much for.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Joining us, Thanks for having me.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: So let's meet.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Just first say, I've watched quite a few crime documentaries.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I have definitely seen my fair share of wicked and
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: what feels to me, you know, evil and unbelievable and
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: and you know, shocking and wow, this story was all
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: of those things. Maybe my most chilling This might be
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: the most chilling documentary I've watched yet in terms of
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: my podcast, really hard to watch. Also, you know, I
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: have to say in the end, I don't know what
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I never know what words to use, but I like
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: seeing the bad guy get what's coming to him. Can't
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: help it so anyway, But let's just launch in how
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: did you first hear about this story?
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: So?
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: I heard about the story through Karl Koppelman. So Carl
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: has been working on I had been working with Kathy
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: Turcinian for quite a while online and they had met
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: through the online like web spouth and kind of armchair
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: detective community.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Carl specifically uses like.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: Graphic design and online tools to recreate like photos and
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: recreations of like Jane and John does to help identify them.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And he does this recreationally.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: He does this recreationally.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: He's like has a full it's like an accountant, and
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: like became realized that he just kind of like had
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: a skill set and an ability to like put these
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: recreations together, and it's it's totally like of his own accord.
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: But now he's partnered obviously with a bunch of like
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: police departments and she I know he works a lot
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: with the Dough Network and some of the other big
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: Jane and John Doe organizations. So I had originally reached
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: out to him. I mean, I'm always just trying to
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: talk to people in this world who are on like
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: in with the stories that matter and that are ongoing
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: as well, and maybe aren't like the front page headline
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: news of the New York Times that everyone else has
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: access to, right And so also this was back like
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: in the Quibi days, and so I had actually approached
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: Carl being like, I.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Have no idea equiby is, but we'll just keeping short.
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  Speaker 3: Form short form.
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  Speaker 4: So it was at that time where short form was everything,
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  Speaker 4: and I had originally approached him thinking like, maybe there's
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: a short form show about you doing these recreations. And
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: in our conversation he mentioned Dennis Bowman and he told
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: me like, this is going to be a huge case,
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: and it was in it was at a really interesting
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: time where it was between Dennis had already been arrested
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: for the murder of Kathleen Doyle, but he had yet
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: to be formally implicated in the death of Andrea. It
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: was about a month after Karl and I first talked
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  Speaker 4: that Dennis ended up confessing to Andrea's murder and leading
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: the detectives to the bone. So it was really the
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: timing was incredible in the sense that I was able
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: to kind of like see that unfold in real time
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: and you know, really kind of get ahead of the
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: curve as well. Like the timing just came together so
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: so perfectly. So as things evolved over the next months,
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: I started really developing the story and talking to Kathy
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: Moore and talking to Carl and understanding all of the
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: different layers that went into it.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: And then and then eventually you know.
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Brought it to my editor, an Atavist, to write the
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: story as a form of creating my own ip in
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: the hopes of making the documentary.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I will tell you that part of what I
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: loved about about it, I loved it it It introduced
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: us not only introduced us to Kathy, but it allowed
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: us to really get to know her, right because from
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: the outside looking and you wouldn't think she'd be such
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: an integral part of this story. And and you know,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: watching it from her perspective, well it was so sad,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, it was so difficult to watch. But
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  Speaker 1: also I felt very happy to know her, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I mean what she went through was so horrible and
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: unlike anything I'd ever really heard of before, even hearing
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: about how her mother sort of forced her to give
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: up Alexis, and then her getting the phone call and
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: thinking that finally shoot this, you know, she was reaching
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: out to her and but and being able to see
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: her grit and determination, you know, for a daughter that
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: she never even knew.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I thought that was.
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  Speaker 1: Such a beautiful way of you know, telling this story.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: And obviously we got to, you know, hear the whole story,
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  Speaker 1: all the gruesome parts of it, and but I loved
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: it that you came at it, you know, through her
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: vantage point. I thought that just that it made it,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: uh just more touching and more real and more human.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: It's again, it's it's the best like version of this medium.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: You know, documentary is incredible, especially with like the space
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: that streaming services has opened up really in between. You know,
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: Traditionally there was like PBS docs and then there was
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: you know, Oxygen and HL and we're doing some of
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  Speaker 4: this crime content, but there wasn't a lot in between it.
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  Speaker 4: And so it's opened up so much space and to
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: be able to produce something and tell a story that
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: people are going to watch in their homes and talk
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: to their friends about and post on social media about. Like,
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: that's an incredible tool to be able to use. And
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: so what's great about that and great about my job
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  Speaker 4: is finding people like Kathy who were screaming into the void.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: I mean, Kathy was posting, you know, all caps on
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  Speaker 4: the Heindri's randso on Facebook, accusing Dennis Bowman of this
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  Speaker 4: death for years, and you know, to be able to
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  Speaker 4: bring her and put her on this platform and translate
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  Speaker 4: it it translated it in a way that's both entertaining
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  Speaker 4: but all so meaningful and generates these conversations, like you said,
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  Speaker 4: about motherhood and identity and adoption and you know, family.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think that she that this lot?
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I think so because I think just watching it, I
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: feel like it was cathartic for her. But I am
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering she didn't talk a lot about it, but
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: how difficult it was for to give up Alexis and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: then knowing the kind of life that she lived. The guilt,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: And I'm I don't think she was guilty for one
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  Speaker 1: tiny little part of this.
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  Speaker 2: She wasn't.
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  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, but just the you know,
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  Speaker 1: the mind that that would be to think that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you didn't even want to give up this baby, and
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: then this is what happened. But I wonder if number one,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: if she does carry a lot of guilt. I really
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: hope she doesn't. And number two, do you think that
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  Speaker 1: doing the stock is alleviated if she did have it
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: alleviated any of it and the fact that she found
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: the killer that too, I.
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  Speaker 4: Think it was like the ultimate act of closure and
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  Speaker 4: a mother's love, like to go to the you know,
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  Speaker 4: the ends of the earth for your kid and to me, like,
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: you know, obviously, it's I think more less than guilt.
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  Speaker 4: I think it's the contrast between she had appeased, like
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: had comforted herself over the years by saying like, this
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  Speaker 4: is so hard that I had to give up Alexis,
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: and I think about her and I miss her, but
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  Speaker 4: it's okay because Alexis is living such.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: A better life than I could have given her.
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  Speaker 4: You know, that's like the self talk that you do,
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  Speaker 4: and that's you know, a lot of cases true. You know,
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  Speaker 4: like a lot of kids that come out of you know,
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  Speaker 4: or put into adopted homes have great parents.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Most I would think ninety hopefully ninety nine percent. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I'm hoping absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: And so that's what you know.
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  Speaker 4: That's I think the narrative that Kathy had reassured herself
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  Speaker 4: with was like, this was so hard, but you made
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: this sacrifice for Alexis, for the life that Alexis could
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  Speaker 4: now go off and lead. Yeah. So to then be
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: confronted with the reality that Alexis had not had that,
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: I think that not not necessarily guilt, but did place
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: a burden on Cassie. I think Kathie felt like, oh
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  Speaker 4: my god, this whole time I've been thinking that she
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  Speaker 4: was in this caring, loving household that was giving her
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  Speaker 4: all these things that I couldn't have given her.
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  Speaker 3: In the end, it is up to me.
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  Speaker 4: And that's what's so great about the film is it
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: is that personal, kind of like Heroes journey of Kathy,
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  Speaker 4: who did not set out to be this person or
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: lived this life and made an incredibly human decision, you know,
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  Speaker 4: in the child's best interest, and then when that didn't
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: turn out.
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  Speaker 1: And not you know, she didn't, she didn't not just
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Oslin and I call her Alexis.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know which to call her.
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  Speaker 3: What is Kathy prefers Alexis, So I'm gonna.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Call her Alexis, but not just in Alexis's life. Look
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: what she did for Meta, you know, look at what
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: she did, So this is what is Also it's something
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: that is so satisfying because you know, you watch crime
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: docs and it's just so much darkness, is so much
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: misery and fear. But then there's the ones that I've
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: watched and there's also something that is poignant and human
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: and like very gratifying. So watching the impact that she
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: had on Meta was was one of those things that
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: I just loved.
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  Speaker 4: Seeing their relationship is incredible and I think like the
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: strength that they found any each other, and it is
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: this beautiful story again of like a mother figure and
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: a daughter figure, and there's this incredible theme of like
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: I said, motherhood and just like what it is to
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: be a woman and what it is to look out
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: for each other as women. And I think that that
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: relationship was one of my fas. I'm so happy that
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: we were able to highlight that because that is like
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: there are positives and the the whole reason we wanted
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: to do this, there was a very strong why. You know,
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: I'm always thinking about stories. It's like why this story?
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Why me?
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Why now?
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: And this had all of those things in such a
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: powerful way and to be able to showcase Kathy's journey,
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: but then also have these incredibly human storylines with meta
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: with Karl, like just these interaction of these real people
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: dealing with like real stuff like what do you do?
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: You know, you figure it out.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I have a couple of technical questions.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: So yes, facebook group thing, okay, so, which was obviously brilliant.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: So she sets up a Facebook group looking for Alexis
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and using the name Andrea. Yeah, and that's when people
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: started to contact her. But my question is how did
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: that happen? Because like she didn't even know the high school,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: she didn't know where she grew up. All she knew
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: was the name. So were people searching for Andrea online?
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Like how did even I'm wondering, like, you know, her
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: reach really exploded in all of these high school people
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: and you know meta, and how did.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: She do that?
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: So it also it really started with the Racine County
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Jane does. There was this other body that was found
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: that ended up being a different deceased woman named Peggy Johnson,
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: and so in that investigation, because Andre you know, Yeah,
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: she knew a missing person and so people like Carl
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: are always trying to make matches between like missing people,
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: and Jane does and so they were like, oh, this
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: could be a match because they Holland and where Riscine
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: County is are basically across the lake from each other.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: So they that as part.
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: Of that investigation, they identified Kathy, and they went to
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: Kathy and they got her DNA. They would not give
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: her really any information. They didn't even give her I
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: don't I don't even think that right.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: It was a closed adoption. They couldn't write.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: But she knew the birthday and she knew the state.
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: And so she went on into the missing person's database,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: which is again like the beauty of the Internet and
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: these tools that have you know, made this information accessible.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: She went online. Her and her husband ed and they were.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: And such a great support, like for her to have
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: him is incredible, and so they they went online and
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: they started looking missing people and pretty quickly found Andrea's
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: listing which had her birthday on it, and so they
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: she began putting those pieces together and then really on
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: her own figured out okay, she went missing from Holland Michigan.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: This is where she went to high school, and then
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: she basically made that Facebook group just in hopes that
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: those people would also find her. And so such a
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: great story about technology.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's tons of.
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: Awful things about social media, even especially in her crime.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: You know, you see, I think a lot of the
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: stuff with the IAHO for roommates, and like, you know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: we've seen over the years some of the negative effects
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: of this media environment. But the really positive, really encouraging
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: side is that, like I don't know if this case
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: would have been solved without Facebook, without these internet tools,
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: let alone without the you know, DNA technology that ultimately
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: you know, made.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: All this start, but also the way that Kathy was
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: able to figure out how to put the pieces together.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know know that I would have had the wherewithal,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: or that many people would have had the wherewithal to say, okay,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: so this is the date, this is the day she disappeared.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: And I remember her husband saying it was so easy
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I literally put in But I the fact that it's this,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of women, I don't
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: know what I would do in that situation, but would
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: have just crawled up into a ball right, and that
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: that pain would have been nobody wouldn't have even wanted
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: to look at it. So I am this woman is
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: my hero. I hope one day I can just hug her.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: But anyway, but I thought that all that, Yeah, she's incredible.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: All of that was so fascinating to me that she,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: you know, was able to just even do what she did.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: And you guys listeners like, it's really quite remarkable that
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: she created this Facebook group. And then the messages started
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: pouring in, and one of those messages was from this woman,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: young woman named Meta, and and that was such an
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: interesting part of this story. So I know me and
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I tend to just I just want to, like, I
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: get nervous because we have an hour, and I'm like,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: I have to get to everything I want to get to,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: but I want this to be five hours I have.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm so captivated by the story. But okay, so
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: here's a question I want to ask. So Dennis and
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Brenda those assholes pieces okay't and I can't help it.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I fucking hate them. I'm sorry.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I know that's not evolved. One day I'll
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: be more evolved. But anyway, those pieces of she had
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: another daughter. Okay, they had you guys baby when Andrea disappeared,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: before she disappeared, so.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Where is she in the world?
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So it didn't you guys didn't show her, and I'm
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: sure that was I would think that she didn't want
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: to be shown. But also you had to be careful
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: to respect her. And God knows what this poor young
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: woman has been through. But can you tell us anything
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: more about her?
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: We really, you know, that was one of the points
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: that we talked a lot about of how to deal.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: With Vanessa, right, Vanessa, Yeah, because.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: You know, obviously we call out Brenda. You know, we're
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: pretty ovid developed that she you know, whether you think
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: she knew or was complicit or simply just like wasn't
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: taking you know, wasn't protecting Andrea in the way that
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: she should have, which I think is pretty clear.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: I Vanessa is more complicated, you know, I think, like,
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: we don't know what she's been through, We don't know
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: what her story is, and we have to like have
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: a level of respect for that. I think, you know,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: it's sad for me because I think from all the
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: stories I've heard, Andrea really loved Vanessa and they had
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: a really beautiful reception.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: She was so scared of Vanessa.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so my hope is that you know, I haven't Yeah,
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: I haven't spoken to Vanessa directly, but my hope is
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: that you know, from from seeing this doc, that Vanessa
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: might know like, oh my god, Andrea really loved me
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: and like I had this sister who like really cared
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: to me and wanted the best for me, and yeah,
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: you know, kind of just got a bad shake. But
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: no one holds any I think resentment or like, you know,
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: it's tough.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: It's so she I think she is.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know the details of her relationship with Brenda
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: or Dennis, but I know she wasn't you know, in
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: a position to kind of like separate herself from them,
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: at least when we did the production. But you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: everyone like she's on her own journey and like I said,
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: there's no there's no blame or resentment there. And my
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: biggest hope with this dock in terms of Vanessa was
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: for her to know, like, you know, I think there
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: was a bit of a narrative that Andrea just like
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: left and disappeared, and if I was the younger sister.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Who's you know, maybe wasn't. I don't know exactly what was.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: Going on in the house, but we know there was
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: were some things going on, you know, based on these
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: first hand accounts, Like I, you know, I don't know,
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: maybe I would feel abandoned, and maybe I would be like,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: how could she have run away and left me? Yeah,
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: so I learned me that was like a huge something
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: I really wanted to accomplish, was just to have that
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: narrative out there where it's like, oh, no, like your
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: sister didn't abandon you, your sister really loved you and
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: and would have loved to grow together.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I can't remember, if I can't wait, I can't remember
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: if Vanessa defended her parents at one point, didn't she
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: say something defended her father in the like, yeah.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: There was I know at one point she had she
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: had said something, but I think it was more like
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: we don't you don't know what you don't like, but
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: they were still uncovering quite a bit of information at
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: that time, or any of it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I hope that this woman grew up in some sort
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: of peace.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I can only imagine too, me too.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: And look also for Brenda, Like, you know, I think
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Brenda's obviously a different situation, like it was her responsibility
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: to take care of Alex, like Andrea that wasn't you know,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: It's a different relationship than a sibling one.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: But also we.
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: Don't know what Brenda has been through, and I think
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: like there's you know, it's it's easy to it's easy
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: to think whatever from the outside. We'll never know how
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: much she knew or didn't now. But I I also
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: think we won't know what was going on in that house,
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: and there's probably a lot that has happened.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: You're a better family than I am. You are a
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: way more yea, I am way more forgiving. And I
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: don't know, you know how many of the viewers will
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: feel the way you do, how many will feel the
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: way I do. I feel like, of course she knew,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: and I am so angry at her, and I you know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: I'm Kathy talked about it obviously as well. But she
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: had no consequences and maybe there's nothing that can be proved.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: And maybe and maybe I'm wrong, right, maybe she was
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: so scared. I don't know, But as just as a viewer, right,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I feel like she was culpable. There was there How
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: could she not have been? This man was a monster
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and not only that, like the friend that came over
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: and said that he smacked her. He smacked Alexus across
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the face during dinner, and so it was like he
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: was it was that hidden. And then they would go
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: to the cousin and and she would, you know, say
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: that he was sexually abusing her.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Then she would have to lie about it. And Brenda
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: was there.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Right, So yes, and again I don't I don't have
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: her perspective.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Well, we know, we do know that that Andrea went
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: to her and said that there was frustation happening. And
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: we do know that, you know, a big part of
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: obviously that doc is his previous criminal record. And we
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: do know that before Andrea was in the picture, he
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: had been and there was a point where he was
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: serving time for his first arrest or the first one that, yeah,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: his first arrest.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say first crime, first first arrest.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: We know about where he was serving time at the prison,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: and Brenda actually moved her in Alexis or Andrea up
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: to to be closer to the prison so that they
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: could visit him and about Yeah, so like all of
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: those things look like I think there certainly were plenty
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: of boarding sides that I think, like Andrea trying. That's
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: one of the things that really motivated me in making
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: this doc was like Andrea had cried really hard to
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: get help, and that's like one of the most heartbreaking
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: things for me was like she tried to tell people.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: She did say that, I know.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: She told school and yeah, Like then they bring her
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: in front of her parents and she says, no, I
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: didn't say that, Like right, So we have a different
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: understanding I think of domestic incidents now than we did
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: back in the eighties. I think our cultural there was
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of families that were like we knew something
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: was weird, but we didn't really want to get in
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: the middle, like we didn't know enough. And so I
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: think all of those things, unfortunately really worked against Andrea
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: where she was really trying to get help for this,
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: and I think, you know she that's part of the
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: really sad thing for me, And one of the main
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: reasons that I wanted to do this is like she
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: tried so hard to tell people what was going on,
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: and so if she couldn't tell it, then at least,
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: like we can tell it now and.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Sort of get her story out there.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: And also like talk about her and who she was,
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: and you know, so often in these true crime stories
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: we reduced the victims to how they died. And I
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: think really looking at like, you know, the lighthearted stories
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: from her friends.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love when you and you like did the clips.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Obviously they were in real time or whatever, the like
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: of them dancing and that. And I only saw a
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: very small amount of dramatization here. I mean those hearing
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Dennis's voice and you hear a lot of it, and
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: all of that was real, right, there was nothing that
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: was all all of his interrogations, all of his phone calls. Again, listeners,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, it's bone chilling, but it is.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: It is such a bird's eye view into this the
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: sick this. I'm sorry, I can't help, but this is
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: why you're a documentarian and I am doing a podcast.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: But I want to say this sick MF. I just can't.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, you captured you guys had
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: so much to listen to about his the way his
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: crazy brainwork. Do you have this at all, like, not
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: just from this documentary, but do you get like I
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: get and like I'm sure you know viewers and listeners
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: get like do you get so angry? And I just
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: and I I'm at the end, I'm so excited to
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: watch him get his you know, I mean, do you
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: have that are you? Just as a documentary you have
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: to look at people in more of a human way.
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: I mean I think for me, look like there's I'm
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: I'm a human, Like there's no way to take emotions
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: out of it, and like I take on the stories
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: that I think matter, and my goal is always to
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: present information in primary sources and facts in a way
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: that will a lessen a reaction like you having that
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: reaction is the goal. It's not my job though to
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: say you should hate this person or this person's evil or.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Make no I just want to know how you men feel.
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look like I take on cases where
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: I think like there's a story that hasn't been told
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: that needs to be told, or there's someone that needs
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: to be listened to that hasn't been listened to, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: so I for me, like that is my motivation.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: And of course there's.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: Emotion and that and those are people that I feel
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: strongly about, like giving them a mic. But yeah, I
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: mean I think everyone's complicated and like I think What
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: is interesting to me about crime is like the psychology.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: Even someone like Dennis Bowman, who obviously has done a
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: lot of really terrible things.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Was probably abused, probably grew up, and.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: That doesn't excuse it, that doesn't make it okay. That's
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: not saying this person. But I think from a perspective
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: of like understanding people better, understanding crime is better, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: like ideally helping prevent this from happening to other people,
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: you have to look at the full picture. And it's
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: easier to dismiss people and be like they're bad, we
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: hate them. It's more productive, at least for me to
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: look at like, okay, but how did this person.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Become this way?
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: What allowed them to breaks those natural kind of like
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: barriers and boundaries that we all.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Keep ourselves in check. That's like a very human thing.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And so to see someone who's able to like
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: you know, I mean Dennis lived a very double life,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: like he had this family, He was doing these things.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: Obviously people knew, but to be able to fake it
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: like that is really interesting to me from a psychological
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: perspective and from a human perspective. So obviously there's emotion,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: and obviously, like anyone who's doing that thing, you know,
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: I you know, there's a obviously a desire, but I
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: think for me, the desire is to expose the truth.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I thank you.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Your job is to be real and show us all.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I get that, all the different aspects of it. That's
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: why I don't want your job. I would rather just
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: sit back and hate this as of right sex.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: You know, like it's hard to obviously, like you get emotional,
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: you care about people, you care about their journeys. But
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of like power in the
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: truth and any especially in the media environment we're living in,
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: Like it can be.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Hard to pin down what's true and what's not, and.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: So being able to like that feels I feel a
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: lot of strength and power in that part of my
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: job where it's like this is the undeniable, Like whatever.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: You think about.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: You know, people could have good reactions with Dennis Bowman
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: on the street, sure, but at the end of the day,
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: we have the facts.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: Or that he killed these people.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he killed it and brutaled right right exactly.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. So back to Brenda for
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: a second. The fact that he moved them so quickly
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: after the disappearance and the fact that he said to her,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: you got to stop looking for you, gotta stop looking
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: for alexis all of that. Do you think that Brenda
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: had knew that it was Dennis? Do you think that
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: any of that gave her pause? Please say no or
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what I want you to say?
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: I mean?
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: I think it's hard to imagine. There wasn't an.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Anything after she knew what he did, right, that's the part.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: But like Nia, that's the part that kills me. She
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: knew he was in child for this, like she knew it.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: She was there.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: When he said no, stop know stop looking for her.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: I think there's a gap between here's what I would
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: say and I don't know, like haven't I haven't had
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: I you know Brenda knows this and really no one else.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: I think the evidence if you look at him having
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: a previous charge Andrea coming to them and saying there's
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: molea state you know he's sexually abusing me, then those clues.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: I think most people that's where they would go.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: I also think there's a gap between when you suspect
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: something and not wanting confirmation. I do not think that
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: Brenda wanted him to tell her.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I would agree with that, and I think that she.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: May have avoided asking things directly.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: The barrel that was moved and buried. You think she
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: noticed any of that.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know what the dynamics of that house were.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it was something where she was
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: there or she was out of town. Like I just
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: I there certainly were plenty of clues that this is
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: what was going on.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: But I would I think there is something.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: I recognize in her, this sort of like desire to
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: not acknowledge these things. Because even when even when Andrea
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: came forward, you know, her response was not like oh my,
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: like you know which, of course, like you don't want
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: your husband to be abusing your daughter.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: That's not a positive thing.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Right, But with most most mothers, what you really don't
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: want is your daughter to be abused more than you
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: don't want your husband to be abusing.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: It's clear that Brenda's loyalty has been to Dennis, of course,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: and that her priority has been Dennis. So same with
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: moving the kids to go and visit him at a prison,
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Like I think that's that's certainly not a choice. I
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: would make if my husband was arrested for trying to
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: kidnap and sexually assault a woman in the woods, I
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: would be divorcing him, you know, like that's not something
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: you work through.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: No, I think that would definitely be my choice.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: But but even like so, because I asked you about
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the barrel and like did she or did she not notice?
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I also I'm wondering, you know, Kathy knew where she
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: was buried whatever, it was a mother's intuition, you know,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the universe giving her that information. Why did it take
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: so long to follow up with her hunch? That part
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I also didn't get and really wanted to ask you
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: because they just so Yeah.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: I always feel like people are listening.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: You guys have already seen it, because I never want
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: to give anything away. But at the same time, too bad,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: because I have to have answers to all my questions
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and I can't help it. But tell me, like what
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: you think, why did it take so long? And she
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: was right there?
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I mean I think that is she was.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: It was a hunch, like it is so and it's
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: it's inexplainable, like Kathy had no evidence really to believe
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: that she was there. I mean, yes, you can see
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: the mark changing on Google Maps. I don't know how
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: much Kathy was like looking on Google Maps every day.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: I think she she had a mother, She had an intuition,
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: She had an instinct. I don't know exactly what that is,
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: but she had it. And that is very much not
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: what cops like.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: The first thing I would think that the cops would
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: do would be searched in the backyard.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: They would have had to have reasonable cause.
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: They would have had to have reasonable cause, which I
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: guess at that point they have a cold case.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: After Kathleen, and then they did.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: That's when they started really doing the searches of the
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: homeless after Kathleen, and I think that provided them a
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: bit of probable cause to be able to conduct those
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: searches and get those warrants because there had been such
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: a gap between Andrea going missing and you know, I
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: think a lot of people really did believe that Andrea
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: ran away. You know, there's there's you have a terrible homework,
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: Like I think universally people knew that their the home
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: life wasn't great, and so sure, in one way, yeah,
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: you could think that she was killed, but I think
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: a probably more reasonable and more rightly situation is that
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: she ran away and got away, which you would.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Have you know, I wish I thought was what we found.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: I wish you'd found Andrea U had had got away
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: and lived some great life. So you know, I think
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: that that's also you know, it helped them get away
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: with it, helped Dennis get away with it for so long,
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: I think because people did believe that narrative, and people
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: also were like hoping that was the trap was yeah,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: people like that.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: There were so many heroes in this, but meta the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: fact that she recognized him she was six, right, and
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: that she I don't she heard the voice, saw us,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: she knew that it was him. That was creepy. But
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I want to know. This is like just like how
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: is she today? I mean, I really want to know,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you know, I kind of you fall in love with
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: these people and they're bravery, Like is she that happened
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: when she was six? I don't even have any idea
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: what kind of that would have had on the rest
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: of her life.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I hope that she has the best.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Doctors and psychiatrists in all of that, because I can't
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: even imagine the toll that that took or is still taking.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Even how is she doing, She's good.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think like closure is really powerful and
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: like to be able to know I mean Meta's stories.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Specifically, and the way she talks about it is.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: So just incredibly selfless in the sense that she said, like,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: you know, a obviously this person's you know, the picture
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: of this person's face is ingrained in your memory forever,
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: you know, when you have a massive trauma like that.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: But I think also the fact that he got away,
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: She said, like, I was worried he was going to
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: do this to other little girls, Like it didn't feel
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: like this was a one off.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Thing that this guy did. It felt like I was
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: one of many that he was going to do this too.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: And so for her to have, even at a young age,
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: to be able to be like I had this incredibly
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: traumatic thing happened to me. There's this very onerous peace,
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: which is we don't know where he is and he's
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: still out there. I think it being able to put
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: a put a name to that face and be able
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: to then know that that man is.
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: In jail, yes, of course is you know, obviously long
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: justice delayed, and also you know, technically he's never been
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: charged with Meta's abduction and assault but I think for
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: her to be able to like say, you know, I
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: recognize this person to be Dennis, to see him, to
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: then connect with Kathy, have that incredibly cathartic experience, and
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: then be able to get justice for Andrea, like if
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: not for herself. You know, I think Meta feels like
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: that's the next best thing. I don't want to speak
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: for her, obviously, but I think there is a real
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: sense of closure and justice said ability to like now
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: move forward, And I think that's that's always my hope
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: with doing docs, and I think especially with this one,
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: was like, this has been not a burden, but this
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: has been everyone's life involved in this.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Story for so long, and.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: So to be able to restore the closure, to be
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: able to restore some of Andrea's memory, but yeah, I
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: mean that's you know, they're closure is a hard word.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: I think everyone that feels, you know, has mixed feelings
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: about it, because there's never really closure when you go
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: through a trauma like this. But I think this is
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: like the best week, you know, clos as you can get,
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: the closest me can get.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I thought about I don't know why I thought about this,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: but when Meta's like Meta's mom watching this now, and
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I wanted to say that you did a very good
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: job of saying, or Meta did a very good job
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: of saying, it was a different time when her mom
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: had her take that walk by herself. She was only
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: six years old, so twenty twenty six, I don't not
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: many parents feel safe letting their six year olds go anywhere, right,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: but back in the day, in the way that you
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: described the town, I thought that was very sensitive because
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: you know, as a viewer, you could watch it and say, well,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: why was this six year old walking to the gas
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: station by herself? Was a very different time, And I
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: also I thought it was very sensitive to not only
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: metap but to her mom. I have no idea what
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: E didn't talk about her mom, but I hope that
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: she's okay. I can't imagine having to live with that,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: right that you let your daughter walk alone and she
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: got abducted.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I think it was such a different time, and I
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: think that's why I like to tell these stories.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: In a sensitive way and in a way.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: Where like we're working with the people directly, because look
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: like everyone's instinct when you hear about a crime is
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: to put your put distance between yourself and whatever happened.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Like I would write, I would never do that. That
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: couldn't happen to my kid, right, it.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Could never happen to me, could never happen to my kid.
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: And you want to blame like not that you're blaming
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: the victim, but you want to say, there's something that
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: they did that made that happen that I wouldn't do.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: And that's a that's like a coping mechanism. That's how
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: we rationalize these things, because it is so incredibly hard
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: for people for something like this happen and to rationalize it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: How do you make sense of that? And so I
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: think there's you.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: Know, that element, and that's something I really try to
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: counter in my work is even you know, I did
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: The Way Down, which was about a cult, and I,
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: you know, my biggest thing in doing that was like,
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: I don't want anyone to be able to watch this
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: and be like, why I'd never fall for that, because
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: you would like, maybe that message isn't the right message
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: for you, But there's a message that's right for you.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: You knows a thing that would make you.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: And so I thought it was great that you gave
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: a moment to that, you know, I mean, you only
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: have definitely so much real estate and how long was it?
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Three hours?
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: And that you kind of gave a moment to that
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: because I know what it was like back then. I
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: was alive, you know, and it was it was a
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: very different time. Okay, so just tell me, well two things.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I want to know a little bit about about how
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Kathy's life is now. But I also want to know
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: I think if it were me, I would want to
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: live very close to Brenda. I would want to just
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I don't know, because thankfully I haven't
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: been through anything like this. But do they live in
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: close proximity now?
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: Not super close, I mean definitely within I think they're
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: in the same like region. But and Kathy's always on
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: the move.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: Her and Ed she's great.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, she's writing a book which I think is
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: like great and will allow her to get into you know,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: like you said, there's only so much.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: Real estate, and.
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: You know, we could have made five hours of this,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: you know, or more. And so there's a lot I think,
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: especially about her mother and that relationship and like how.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: That all broke down.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Oh good, I wanted to know more about it.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: Good.
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's some really cool too, just like Kathy was
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: this like runaway living in New Orleans and like had
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: this really super interesting life, and I think there is
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: really a story about motherhood and identity and finding yourself
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: and all those things. So I really that was not
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: like I obviously we had to like we had to
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: make choices. I'm excited to be able to have to
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: learn more about that and for everyone to learn more
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: about it, because I felt like that was a really
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: cool part of her story that like just didn't it
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: didn't end up having as much real estate as maybe
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: we would have bonded it too.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I would love that I make it, Please make many
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So she's she's working on a book which I
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: think like will be really incredible, and I'm really excited
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: for her and that and just like any other opportunities
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: that she has to kind of talk about, Alexis like
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: she's you know, done some done some TV appearances and
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: think she did tammern Hall, which was really so cool.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: So she's had some really it's I think the reception
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: has been really positive.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: Again, like when you're when you're just screaming into.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: The void about something for so long to then have
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: millions of people listen and you is really powerful, Like yeah,
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: it's I mean, obviously the ultimate pin is that Dennis
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: is in jail and you know, never going to get out.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: But I think also the ability to just be heard
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: and have people understand and not judge and not be
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: like you're evil because you gave up your kid, Like, no,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: she this is a very human, very relatable story.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: It most certainly is.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: I always felt that way, and I always told Kathy
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: I didn't, you know, reassure them a lot of like
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: people are going to really resonate when she actually worried.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: I mean I not for one second watching that, I
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: just saw her as a hero. From the second the
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: document who started, I was like, I want to know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: this woman is incredible.
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: She's very she's very steadfast. No, she's very I mean
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: I think she was like people will think whatever they think,
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: but like she's been confident. I mean that's the thing.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: Like she was posting this stuff on Facebook. Every people
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: were calling her crazy and she was like, I'm not crazy.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: I'm right, You're going to see and so that attitude
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: is who Kathy is.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: That really like?
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: And I'm just yeah, I'm really happy that everyone has
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: responded so positively to the story in her strang story.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Listen, you've done some really good work, good for good
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: work just in the world, and not everyone is completely
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: hateful like me and just wants to see revenge. A
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: lot of people will look at this and see the humanity.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And I saw a lot of humanity. And I shouldn't
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: say that, but I just I think of that.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: Man, I want people to have strong reactions, Like I said, Like,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: my job is to present all of the information in
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: a way that's compelling and moves people.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: That's why I do this work.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: You know, that's what you do.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I come from a background of doing a
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: lot of different types of writing and content, and you know,
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: it got to a point where it's like, if I
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: can if I can tell a story that millions of
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: people are going to like watch and care about, what
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: do you.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: Want to say?
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: And so to be able to say something matters and
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: can help people like Kathy and Carl and Netta.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the strongest of a reaction as I have,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Like my strongest reaction is to Kathy. Yeah, right, I
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: guess I have all that anger and I have all
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: that you know. I want this, I want Alexis to
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: be vindicated. But also watching Kathy was so inspiring. And Karl,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: by the way, we didn't really talk a lot about him,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: but what an incredible guy. But anyway, yes, let me
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: just ask quickly, what which tell me one more of
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: your tell me another piece of your work that I
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: can watch.
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: I did the weigh Down God Greed in the Cult
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: of Gwen Chamblin on HBO Max, and then I did
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: I also did Bad Influence on Netflix, which is about
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: Piper rockw and her mom.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, good, thank you, so I'll be busy.
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Oh it's absolutely my pleasure. Please come back. Thank you
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: so much.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Good, thank you, well done by Thank you