Latest / age / Ep. 22: Idols, Brands & The Originality We Worship

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Ep. 22: Idols, Brands & The Originality We Worship · age

• 0:01
  All right, let's do our favorite parts.
• 0:02
  Ricky.
• 0:04
  My favorite part was when Tim got very passionate about Pantone colors and about
• 0:12
  basically, I think, unimportant similarities.
• 0:15
  I could see it.
• 0:17
  My favorite part was when Tim told us about the cheesy church music he used to make.
• 0:24
  What was that?
• 0:26
  I fumbled all over that.
• 0:29
  No, cheesy church music.
• 0:30
  Say it again.
• 0:31
  It's like a tongue twister.
• 0:32
  My favorite part was the cheesy church music that Tim used to make.
• 0:41
  All right, you got it, Reggie.
• 0:43
  Cheesy church music.
• 0:45
  That is really close.
• 0:46
  I don't know, maybe not a favorite thing, but an appreciation for all the little epiphanies that kept popping up and all connected.
• 0:55
  I don't know what I'm doing with this.
• 0:59
  Will?
• 1:00
  I actually thought the copyright law stuff was kind of interesting, which is not what I would normally call out, but I was like, ooh, okay.
• 1:08
  Brandon, copyright.
• 1:09
  Taking credit.
• 1:10
  Mary.
• 1:10
  My favorite moment was hearing about the spark of inspiration that created sort of a new medium for Lindsay.
• 1:19
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:19
  And Tim.
• 1:21
  Lindsay saying something about authenticity and how she transitioned herself from Brandon to art was moving to me.
• 1:33
  Hey guys, we see you out there.
• 1:35
  Hey, thanks for being here.
• 1:37
  This is Age.
• 1:38
  If you have been watching for a while, you know that I am Reggie Tidwell.
• 1:43
  This is- Mary Green.
• 1:45
  That is- Kim Scrogg.
• 1:47
  And today we have a lovely guest.
• 1:50
  Lindsey Gray.
• 1:52
  And Lindsey Gray is a friend who's an amazing painter.
• 1:55
  I'll let her say just a little bit about, like, what are you, what's going on?
• 1:59
  What are you crazy about?
• 2:00
  Tim likes to say, like, what's the phrase?
• 2:03
  Yeah, what are you obsessed with right now?
• 2:05
  Her obsession?
• 2:06
  Yeah.
• 2:08
  Oh, I think.
• 2:10
  Getting enough sleep.
• 2:12
  Oh, I love it.
• 2:14
  I gotta find that one.
• 2:15
  It's underrated, right?
• 2:16
  It's underrated.
• 2:17
  Oh my gosh.
• 2:18
  And it's affecting my ability to create more and more, right?
• 2:21
  I have been getting to bed earlier and earlier.
• 2:25
  I've been valuing my sleep.
• 2:27
  And it's been paying off.
• 2:28
  I feel so old when I go to bed early.
• 2:30
  I mean, I do too, but man, I've been reading it.
• 2:34
  But it does from that.
• 2:36
  I do, I get attached from this old thing.
• 2:38
  If you have a good book, which I do right now, I'm reading, I have some questions for you.
• 2:43
  Really good book, gosh, I forget the author's name, but,
• 2:47
  I am like in it now.
• 2:48
  So I'm like, I want to go to bed early so I can read a chapter before I fall asleep.
• 2:52
  So you can actually get through a chapter?
• 2:53
  Yeah.
• 2:54
  I'm like one page.
• 2:55
  Yeah, I used to be, but I'm getting it up.
• 2:59
  I can do like a chapter a night.
• 3:00
  All right.
• 3:02
  I read a hell of a book by Jason Mott, and it took me like two years because I would do like a page a night.
• 3:12
  Paragraph a night.
• 3:14
  Sometimes it was like a paragraph line, I got it in me and I'll just fall asleep.
• 3:18
  But yeah.
• 3:20
  Anyway, we are age.
• 3:23
  We like to have long, gripping conversations about a topic that we pull from this very trash can right here, which without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and...
• 3:36
  While you're polling, can I just say that another friend of ours came in yesterday and was having some, you know, brainstorm time with me.
• 3:43
  Tim was here.
• 3:44
  And he, without asking, walked up with a rolled up, wadded up post-it note and put another piece of trash.
• 3:52
  Fun.
• 3:53
  He's like, there's a trash can right there.
• 3:54
  We have to cover it up.
• 3:56
  We need to, I'll cut a perfect little thing that goes over it that we can take off.
• 4:01
  Like a little drain.
• 4:03
  This is not a trash can.
• 4:07
  This is a perfect UX fail.
• 4:09
  Yeah, it really is.
• 4:10
  A trash can that's not a trash can.
• 4:11
  That's a perfect UX fail.
• 4:12
  Perfectly balled up.
• 4:14
  Yeah, I know.
• 4:14
  It's like, oh, that looks like trash.
• 4:16
  That's a cohesive trash.
• 4:18
  And it's so low.
• 4:19
  It's not so full.
• 4:20
  So you're like, I've got somebody checked.
• 4:21
  Look stage.
• 4:22
  This is going to be an interesting one.
• 4:23
  Is it sleep?
• 4:24
  No, it's not.
• 4:26
  It would be cool if it was sleep.
• 4:27
  I don't even know if sleep is in there.
• 4:29
  We should put it in there.
• 4:29
  The trash can's kind of got magic power.
• 4:31
  Slowty.
• 4:32
  I don't know what that means.
• 4:33
  It usually has something that's relevant to someone in the group.
• 4:37
  Good.
• 4:38
  All right.
• 4:39
  Idols.
• 4:40
  Ooh.
• 4:41
  Idols.
• 4:42
  Hmm.
• 4:43
  Hmm.
• 4:43
  How much time do we have?
• 4:45
  Oh, man.
• 4:47
  What's the first thing that comes to mind?
• 4:49
  American Idol, because I hated it.
• 4:51
  Really?
• 4:52
  I hated it literally from the first one.
• 4:54
  It was so horrible.
• 4:55
  Yeah, and all of my friends and family loved it.
• 4:57
  I'm like, what is happening to the world?
• 4:59
  I love like a season or two.
• 5:01
  I like the first season.
• 5:02
  Yeah.
• 5:02
  I mean, I guess there's something to be like, because you had Justin and...
• 5:06
  I can't remember his last name.
• 5:07
  And then Kelly Clarkson.
• 5:08
  Kelly Clarkson.
• 5:10
  Was she first?
• 5:11
  And then, oh, what is her name?
• 5:14
  There were like three people out of that one.
• 5:16
  Yeah.
• 5:17
  Yeah.
• 5:18
  Was it the country?
• 5:19
  But so a lot of these people have become, they've become things.
• 5:22
  Well, that's the, I don't know.
• 5:24
  I'm not going to get into it.
• 5:25
  I'm going to harp on it, but I don't want to.
• 5:26
  I'm going to let everyone give it.
• 5:27
  Name your most memorable American Idol.
• 5:29
  Anybody got one?
• 5:30
  Mine was Kelly Clarkson.
• 5:31
  I think just Kelly Clarkson because it's the only one I paid attention to.
• 5:34
  Where are the David Archuleta stans?
• 5:36
  That's all I'm trying to say.
• 5:37
  No.
• 5:38
  Okay, moving on.
• 5:39
  Actually, Benson Boone was in American Idol.
• 5:41
  No way.
• 5:41
  Was he?
• 5:42
  I didn't know this.
• 5:42
  I didn't know that.
• 5:43
  I think that he's the one that went through like three rounds and then he dropped out himself so he could record his album.
• 5:49
  Do you think he did any?
• 5:49
  He slipped?
• 5:50
  He may not have needed it.
• 5:52
  I was going to say, yeah, he's like, I'm better than this.
• 5:54
  Well, he's the one I think, if I got this wrong, I'll look it up and have Will edit it.
• 5:59
  But there's one guy that comes in to the American Idol's tryouts and he's like, I've only been playing piano for a few months.
• 6:07
  And he sits down and just like rocks the place.
• 6:09
  Wow.
• 6:10
  Awesome.
• 6:10
  And I'm like, what the hell?
• 6:11
  That's not true.
• 6:12
  How can that be true?
• 6:13
  No one plays the piano and just starts singing.
• 6:15
  Three months in, it sounds like him.
• 6:17
  No way.
• 6:17
  I don't know.
• 6:18
  I have my suspicions that it was like some kind of a plant.
• 6:23
  I like the series with Caleb.
• 6:26
  I forget his last name, but he was from Asheville.
• 6:28
  Oh, yeah.
• 6:29
  Caleb.
• 6:29
  I can't remember his last name either.
• 6:31
  He was more like kind of rockabilly, not full country, kind of like Wilco vibe.
• 6:37
  He was awesome, though.
• 6:39
  This is my thing.
• 6:40
  I met him.
• 6:41
  We got a rep. Guys, we got to do better.
• 6:42
  No, but this is not us.
• 6:43
  This is American Idol's failure.
• 6:45
  They say they're going to make these stars and artists, and they go through and grind through this thing, and then you forget about them.
• 6:52
  Yeah.
• 6:52
  You remember the ones that didn't even win.
• 6:54
  Right.
• 6:55
  First thing that comes to mind for me is all the like idols our kids have, like all these like YouTube influencers and they're like looking up to like Mr. Big, Mr. Yeah.
• 7:05
  Mr.
• 7:05
  Beast.
• 7:06
  Mr.
• 7:06
  Beast.
• 7:06
  Mr. Big.
• 7:07
  I thought you were saying that's from Sex and the City.
• 7:09
  Mr.
• 7:10
  Beast.
• 7:11
  We just dated ourselves.
• 7:13
  Chris Noth.
• 7:14
  Yeah, he was amazing.
• 7:16
  Chris Noth.
• 7:17
  Was he our idol back then?
• 7:17
  He's way cooler than Mr.
• 7:18
  Beast.
• 7:19
  I think so.
• 7:20
  Mr. Big.
• 7:22
  Yeah.
• 7:22
  Like K-pop idols.
• 7:24
  I know.
• 7:24
  K-pop demon hunters.
• 7:26
  My kid was watching, one of my twins was watching K-pop demon hunters again yesterday.
• 7:31
  And I was like, I know that song.
• 7:32
  And I was like, oh, I know it.
• 7:34
  My son thought it was an incredible movie.
• 7:36
  I thought it was fun.
• 7:38
  My daughter just survived, so she's still a little... Too young.
• 7:41
  Trying to keep the overstimulants down.
• 7:45
  Yeah, that's hard in this world.
• 7:46
  That's a good call.
• 7:47
  That is a very stimulating movie.
• 7:49
  I was getting on top of the back of the couch dancing myself.
• 7:53
  I know somehow my son has seen it already, and he was like, yeah, Dad, you remember the girl who they start showing her tattoos to prove that she's a demon?
• 8:01
  I was like, what did you watch?
• 8:04
  What's happening?
• 8:05
  Nothing.
• 8:06
  He keeps walking around and making me.
• 8:07
  I'm just seating and I didn't rearrange myself.
• 8:10
  OK. Rearrange yourself, Mary.
• 8:11
  I needed to check myself before I I love how Will did it very discreetly.
• 8:15
  And I was like, what's wrong?
• 8:16
  What's going on?
• 8:17
  And Tim was like, what's happening?
• 8:19
  Reggie has no chill.
• 8:20
  You try to do something subtle and Reggie's going to be like, what's happening?
• 8:23
  Don't be straight, guys.
• 8:25
  Don't be straight.
• 8:26
  And then Tim got involved.
• 8:27
  He's like, what's going on?
• 8:29
  If I didn't get to see him.
• 8:30
  All right.
• 8:31
  Sorry.
• 8:31
  Will, you did a great job.
• 8:33
  Will did exactly the way he was supposed to be.
• 8:36
  What comes to mind when you hear the word idols?
• 8:39
  I think back to what my kid is currently looking up to right now, which is Moana, like any other toddler in the elementary, which I'm okay with.
• 8:48
  I was going to say, that's pretty good.
• 8:50
  Because her immediate kind of reasoning, like a grandparent or somebody will come up and say, oh, she's referring to Moana as a princess, and she'll quickly correct she's not a princess yet.
• 9:02
  Chief.
• 9:02
  Yes.
• 9:03
  Oh, yeah.
• 9:04
  I love that.
• 9:04
  That's a neat, no.
• 9:05
  Prince Charming.
• 9:06
  Yeah.
• 9:07
  Yeah, I love that.
• 9:08
  So I'm okay with that.
• 9:08
  He's a chief.
• 9:09
  And like kindness, love of nature.
• 9:11
  Like Moana stands for all these great things.
• 9:13
  Helping others.
• 9:14
  So that's not that ideal to have.
• 9:16
  And how can you see that last scene where she says, let her come to me?
• 9:19
  Yes.
• 9:20
  Wait, is this the new one?
• 9:22
  No, the original cartoon.
• 9:24
  Oh, the original one.
• 9:25
  Have you seen it?
• 9:25
  Oh, yes, yes, yes.
• 9:27
  I do remember.
• 9:27
  You would break down crying when the lava monster comes to her.
• 9:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 9:31
  Oh, my goodness.
• 9:32
  Graffiti?
• 9:32
  Graffiti?
• 9:33
  I still cry every time.
• 9:34
  What was her name?
• 9:34
  Two.
• 9:35
  It was Graffiti.
• 9:36
  It was Graffiti.
• 9:37
  Hi, of course.
• 9:37
  It's a ride in the flying june.
• 9:39
  It's a T-T-T-T-T. No, it's a T-T-T. That's right.
• 9:41
  I always want to say Graffiti, but that's the monkey in Lion King, right?
• 9:45
  Yeah, that's not.
• 9:46
  Yeah.
• 9:46
  It's something like that, though.
• 9:48
  Yeah, it's T-T
• 9:51
  we watch it about twice a day so it's to pt you got it maybe you should think it unless i'm saying it wrong but yeah are you gonna show her the live action when it comes we saw it already saw it wow what do you think it was a good great yeah really you went to the movies to see it wow that's like full-on stimulation was that her first movie no like in the theater had her first movie for her birthday last year which was the live action lilo and stitch which that also was very good
• 10:19
  Oh, nice.
• 10:20
  Love it.
• 10:21
  I didn't know they did a live action Lilo and Stitch.
• 10:22
  They did a great job.
• 10:24
  What a stitcher.
• 10:24
  So her idol is a chief, a woman chief.
• 10:27
  How cool is that?
• 10:27
  What a new world.
• 10:28
  I love that.
• 10:30
  It's not a typical princess.
• 10:31
  I'll take it.
• 10:31
  Hi.
• 10:32
  How are you?
• 10:34
  Oh, this.
• 10:34
  Can I marry?
• 10:36
  Just let it out, Mary.
• 10:37
  Let it all out.
• 10:38
  When we were starting an episode, my hand was here.
• 10:39
  That's what I thought about.
• 10:40
  It's like kings and queens would sit like this as people like approach the throne.
• 10:45
  Oh, that's right.
• 10:46
  I love that.
• 10:48
  I get like way too deep on idolatry.
• 10:50
  I started reading this book called We Are Gods.
• 10:54
  Ooh.
• 10:56
  We are gods.
• 10:57
  And it's just the thing that comes to me is like, we have turned a lot of things into idols, so to speak.
• 11:05
  And so much so that we almost, I'm going to go a step further.
• 11:11
  I think people have flipped the image of even something like,
• 11:14
  Jesus Christ into an idol.
• 11:16
  We've turned it into something that's not as profound and deep as it was meant to be.
• 11:19
  We're not looking beneath the surface at the values and the... No longer a compass.
• 11:24
  Yeah.
• 11:25
  It's not this eternal big picture macro thing.
• 11:29
  It becomes very bland and superficial.
• 11:31
  So I am surrounded on all sides by idols is how I feel.
• 11:35
  And I worship at the altar of a few like TikTok.
• 11:38
  TikTok.
• 11:40
  like coffee like yeah you know those are called addictions sure and you could maybe pull on that thread you know so i don't please don't idolatry is everywhere and i don't mean that in like the strictly christian old school biblical sense just generally it does change the feel of it when you say idolatry versus idols it really does yeah yeah i know it feels more like profound and like oh yeah
• 12:09
  I'm pretty deep, guys.
• 12:10
  I don't know.
• 12:11
  Just drop the...
• 12:12
  Wait, Anna.
• 12:14
  When you unfolded it, I was like, all right, this is going to be the episode.
• 12:18
  Lindsay, we don't know each other that well, but buckle up.
• 12:23
  But then he said American Idol.
• 12:25
  Yeah.
• 12:26
  And I was, oh, yeah.
• 12:28
  Oh, yeah.
• 12:28
  There's all kinds of that.
• 12:29
  Oh, yeah.
• 12:30
  There's lighthearted idols.
• 12:31
  No, you know what?
• 12:32
  When I first started watching it, I was more in like the Christian religion, psychologically, or what do you call it?
• 12:39
  Philosophically.
• 12:40
  philosophically whatever it was my being was more in the Christian religion and I did feel like we were idolizing these people yeah that was the point yeah right like the K-pop idols right the point come worship right but it's like it was new to me because it was called American Idol yeah
• 12:59
  when we have generations of the same thing.
• 13:03
  Yeah.
• 13:03
  It's like, I don't know why I like hyper-focused on it and I tried to make it the thing that was wrong.
• 13:09
  I mean, I will say I also grew up Christian and there was that whole like, thou shall not have any other gods before me or idols before me or whatever.
• 13:17
  And so I absolutely took it to heart.
• 13:19
  I was the same way.
• 13:20
  I was like, you know, don't look up to anything too much.
• 13:24
  Don't put anything on a pedestal and...
• 13:27
  So I think I, of course, cut out of the whole Christian religion way long ago.
• 13:34
  But there was still this residual sort of what was left over.
• 13:40
  Yeah, the unlearning of that.
• 13:42
  Yeah, definitely, because it sinks deep in.
• 13:44
  Not that I need to have idols, but I definitely see when people are doing good in the world, I wouldn't say I...
• 13:52
  idolize them, but I will say that I definitely have a deep, deep amount of gratitude and appreciation.
• 13:59
  Respect.
• 14:01
  Yeah.
• 14:02
  Which could feel like idolizing.
• 14:03
  Yeah.
• 14:04
  Idolize people.
• 14:05
  I don't idolize celebrities so much, but I idolize people.
• 14:09
  Like, yeah, I'll meet somebody and they're really sparkly and I'm just obsessed.
• 14:14
  And I'm thinking, this person is the answer to all the questions that I've had.
• 14:18
  Like, let me go find answers in that person.
• 14:20
  We had an episode, I will not name the episode or the person, but you just fall.
• 14:25
  I know what episode is.
• 14:26
  You just find yourself falling into the deepest well.
• 14:30
  But I do that with a lot of people, I find.
• 14:33
  And it takes me a minute to reel back in and say, oh no, this energy is mine.
• 14:37
  And it's a tricky thing.
• 14:41
  Yeah, I think the thing that drives me crazy about idols in general is that it's like a stuck place.
• 14:49
  Idols are things that mean something and they stay the same.
• 14:54
  They stay consistent, like a statue or a person.
• 14:57
  Because we idolize people that are constantly changing, but we idolize something about them that we think and that we love.
• 15:03
  We fixate, we obsess over something.
• 15:06
  And for me, the way that idolization has kind of filtered through my maturity and growing up and kind of developing my relationship with God is that the idolization is what keeps you from finding the truth because you get stuck on these assumptions about what is good and real and right.
• 15:28
  And and you don't move past it.
• 15:31
  And I've been recently going through this moment where
• 15:35
  The God I know and love isn't the same all the time, even though he says he never changes.
• 15:40
  He isn't the same because people are always different.
• 15:43
  Like we're all these unique universes of connections and upbringing and relationships.
• 15:49
  None of us literally have anything similar because we're raised in such different places.
• 15:55
  Yeah.
• 15:55
  And I wonder if that's by design.
• 15:57
  Yeah, totally by design.
• 15:58
  When someone's asking you to idolize something, whether it's a celebrity or...
• 16:02
  or religious figure, they want you to get stuck in that and not be open to change and evolution.
• 16:10
  Exactly, because they fear that growth, like they're going to lose control.
• 16:15
  So the idols are the thing that keep us from growing and from expanding.
• 16:21
  And so one of the key examples, and people, I get into discussions about the Bible, because that, to me, you said Jesus Christ, but I think more the Bible has become an idol to a lot of people.
• 16:30
  It has, and not in a good way.
• 16:32
  No, not in a good way because they use their understanding of what it says, and that's the idol.
• 16:38
  So they make this book, this thing they can beat people over the head with or hurt people with because they're interpreting it in a certain way.
• 16:44
  So when I talk about this idea of God changing, being something unique to everyone, it's this—when Moses was in the desert, he raised an idol—
• 16:53
  It's a serpent on a stick because everyone was sick.
• 16:56
  And so God told him to raise the serpent on a stick.
• 16:59
  So first of all, he's like breaking his own rule because that's kind of like what the pagan religions were doing around them.
• 17:05
  So he raises the stick, everyone gets healed.
• 17:07
  And then 200 years later, that
• 17:09
  thing they had been worshiping it in the temple because it was the thing moses used and then god asked them to destroy the idol 200 years later so you see how god once makes it a miraculous thing that was like against the understanding of what they were supposed to do to do a miracle and then later it's it's an idol that's holding them back and asks them to destroy it right
• 17:31
  So it's not like this.
• 17:33
  That's the thing about idols.
• 17:34
  They get us stuck and we get held by our assumptions or our expectations.
• 17:40
  Oh, go ahead.
• 17:41
  I was going to say, I think it's funny that
• 17:44
  Like, I think of all the figures, historical figures that you could, like, worship, I would say of someone who is a non-Christian, Jesus would be one because of the way he lived his life.
• 17:53
  Like, he is someone, like, if you said, be more Jesus-like, I'm okay with that.
• 17:58
  You don't have to be a Christian to be more Jesus-like.
• 18:00
  You could just be a good human.
• 18:02
  However— They've got a whole Trinity thing going on.
• 18:04
  I know, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
• 18:06
  He's not just a dude.
• 18:07
  But I almost think that they've taken Jesus and made him a false idol because what they've done is they've taken the parts of him that they like and they've thrown, like, for instance, I would.
• 18:19
  you know, and certainly will out myself with someone that's not very fond of super, I'm not very fond of far left or right, but far right has taken this Jesus and used it in this almost like weaponry and not in a way where they're saying, you know, like for instance, they seem to be completely against feeding the homeless people and the sick people and the poor and like,
• 18:44
  taking care and being kind and loving your neighbors and all those things that I would consider to be very Jesus-like, it seems like they're vehemently against it, which makes it seem to me like, well, who are you worshiping?
• 18:56
  Because it's not Jesus.
• 18:57
  Contradiction is deafening.
• 18:59
  Yeah.
• 18:59
  Hypocrisy.
• 19:00
  What you will find, though, is I think in political arenas, and I see this sometimes in the people I know and love,
• 19:06
  People get hopped up on a thing, like a trend, like pull yourself up by your bootstrap.
• 19:13
  But if you know, if those same people in real life situations are the most giving people.
• 19:19
  Oh, are they?
• 19:20
  Yeah, the ones that I know.
• 19:22
  They're in the conservative, far-right conservative crowd, but they give so much.
• 19:26
  And I think there are people out there who we assume to be that way because that is the narrative.
• 19:31
  You know, like there is this strong like you deserve it.
• 19:34
  You've you've used capitalism to gain your wealth and you can keep all your wealth.
• 19:38
  You don't have to share it like there is a kind of that like tight grip.
• 19:41
  But the ones I know who are kind of positioned with that side are so giving.
• 19:46
  They donate money.
• 19:47
  They give money.
• 19:48
  They.
• 19:50
  buy food for these closets, you know, these... With no strings attached.
• 19:54
  Yeah, with no strings attached.
• 19:55
  Sometimes it's for a tax write-off.
• 19:58
  But it's interesting to find, I think, to find where politics is trying to divide us and to find where people actually are.
• 20:06
  Because I've had a friend told me, more people than you know and than you expect are in the middle.
• 20:11
  Yeah, right.
• 20:13
  Between the extremes.
• 20:14
  I would like to think that, yeah, absolutely.
• 20:15
  Absolutely.
• 20:16
  I'm really curious, Lindsay, you said you thought of your daughter and how she sort of idolizes Moana at this moment in life.
• 20:24
  And I think many of us as children, and we watch other children go through that phase, I start to question what's the difference between an idol and a role model.
• 20:33
  Right.
• 20:34
  But I wonder, are there characters that you've seen in media that you would be really upset if your daughter had latched onto in a similar way?
• 20:42
  Yeah.
• 20:44
  Probably.
• 20:45
  I don't think.
• 20:46
  We're pretty, I mean, pretty considerate.
• 20:52
  And, like, I guess we try to vet, I would say, what she watched.
• 20:56
  I mean, we're not, like, controlling, but, like, PBS is fair game.
• 20:59
  Anything on PBS.
• 21:00
  Absolutely.
• 21:00
  Yeah.
• 21:01
  And very few Disney.
• 21:03
  Yeah.
• 21:03
  Yeah.
• 21:04
  Like there's definitely some, I mean, there's been some date, you know, some older movies that I grew up with and then older than that, that are very dated.
• 21:11
  And there are scenes where.
• 21:12
  Oh my gosh, I can't believe.
• 21:13
  Oh, I can't think of one specifically right now, but.
• 21:18
  There's a lot of patriarchy and colonialism.
• 21:21
  Oh yeah.
• 21:21
  One that comes to mind.
• 21:22
  A lot of the other princesses and then.
• 21:24
  Yeah.
• 21:25
  You know, needing, yeah, they're this damsel in distress.
• 21:28
  I'm like, nope, we're not watching it.
• 21:29
  What?
• 21:30
  Turn it off.
• 21:31
  Wait a minute.
• 21:31
  You're trying to tell me she's pretty and she's smart.
• 21:34
  Yeah, yeah.
• 21:34
  Must be a fairy tale.
• 21:36
  Cleaner, yeah.
• 21:37
  I watched, my kids and I, my son and the twins, we watched Castle in the Sky, Miyazaki's.
• 21:44
  It's been a long time since I watched that one.
• 21:46
  Well, you would be kind of shocked if you watched it today because I'd never seen it.
• 21:53
  So I'm looking at it with fresh eyes.
• 21:56
  It's like one of the few Studio Ghibli movies that I haven't seen.
• 22:00
  But there's this one scene where Shita, who is the young girl character, Shita and Patsu,
• 22:12
  I guess she's sort of the antagonist in the movie, Dola.
• 22:18
  She's got these grown-ass men's sons, and they're all like, one has got a full beard, like seemingly in their 20s and late 20s, early 30s.
• 22:30
  And they are actually making advances toward this little girl.
• 22:34
  This is one moment where she's in this room and they sneak up and they're peeping in on her.
• 22:39
  And then one guy comes in and he like closes the door behind them.
• 22:42
  And he's like, well, I don't have anything else going on.
• 22:45
  And I'm like, what is happening right now?
• 22:48
  And they were just fumbling over themselves.
• 22:50
  Yeah.
• 22:51
  So they either they should have been more like, you know, transparent with what the age gap was.
• 22:57
  So we can understand maybe she was really 18 and they were like 21 or 22.
• 23:02
  I don't know.
• 23:03
  But she seemed they portrayed her like she was maybe like 13, 14, 15, something like that.
• 23:09
  And these it was just unsettling for me.
• 23:12
  My kids were like, oh, they're so cute.
• 23:13
  Fumbling over themselves for her.
• 23:15
  And I was like, wouldn't call that.
• 23:18
  No.
• 23:19
  They were idolizing her.
• 23:20
  They were idolizing her.
• 23:21
  They were, that was the epitome of idolizing.
• 23:23
  Yeah, I think.
• 23:24
  They were like bringing her flowers, which is like bringing the, you know, the gift to the altar.
• 23:28
  Well, I think in old cultures, I mean, girls were betrothed at young ages.
• 23:33
  I would say actually, as it pertains to idolizing, I think in relationships is where it happens a lot, where you have one person that is so in love and infatuated with the other, and to the point where they are idolizing them, which puts an incredible amount of strain.
• 23:50
  I've seen this play out over and over again, where somebody falls in love with someone and they were just like, oh man, they're the greatest and blah, blah, and the other person, you don't get the same vibe from them, and then, yeah,
• 24:02
  No big surprise.
• 24:04
  It doesn't last.
• 24:05
  And then I'll speak from my own experience and from having watched other people do it and cringe and think, oh, that was me.
• 24:12
  Oh, I'm the problem.
• 24:13
  You've been there.
• 24:14
  But you, you like fall in love in whatever sense.
• 24:18
  And you put this person on a pedestal, idolize them.
• 24:21
  And suddenly, you know, something will change, it will shift, and they're not behaving the way that you expected them to behave because you associated them, like you were saying, you have these three things.
• 24:31
  They are perfect, and yet they're not behaving toward me in the way that someone who's perfect would.
• 24:36
  And if over time you start resenting them as if they are the problem...
• 24:41
  But it wasn't.
• 24:42
  The issue is your own expectation, and you just start projecting, and eventually it becomes very bitter and, yes, resentful...
• 24:50
  and painful and you have to precedent that they could never really live up to and you you like work yourself up into this fervor and it takes some distance to step back and think
• 25:02
  wow, I really hurt my own feelings.
• 25:06
  But I guess that's growing up.
• 25:08
  That's growing up.
• 25:09
  Yeah.
• 25:11
  Heart pains, heart trauma.
• 25:12
  And it's partially because you take the idol that you have about the perfect person, and then you kind of put it on them.
• 25:18
  Yeah.
• 25:19
  For a moment, they spark that, like, yeah, they could be this thing.
• 25:22
  Right.
• 25:23
  They just do it for me.
• 25:24
  clouds your judgment too, right?
• 25:26
  Or how you see them.
• 25:27
  Yeah.
• 25:27
  Oh, absolutely.
• 25:28
  It also forces, I mean, even saying the phrase, it puts them on a pedestal implies this.
• 25:34
  It creates this distance between you.
• 25:37
  You can't be like cozy snuggled up to an idol.
• 25:40
  It is by definition above and distant from you.
• 25:44
  So if you are actually seeking connection with that person, you have to take them off the pedestal.
• 25:50
  You have to see them wholeheartedly.
• 25:53
  But if you'd rather have something to worship, if you'd rather have—worship is what I just said.
• 25:58
  Worship.
• 25:58
  It's a new type of worship.
• 26:00
  I'm good for those.
• 26:01
  If you would rather have an obsession— Yeah.
• 26:04
  And I think a lot of us do for whatever reason, avoidance or anxiety or whatever.
• 26:09
  You can't have the connection.
• 26:11
  You don't get to have both.
• 26:13
  That is why I think the Bible says don't have no idols.
• 26:17
  because there's no relationship.
• 26:18
  And the Bible is all about relationship.
• 26:21
  Jesus was all about relationship.
• 26:22
  So that's why I think that when it's turned into this thing where you have to be this way, and that's I think what the political agenda is, is trying to, like you were saying, they're trying to,
• 26:33
  sameness put a thing on like you can only vote this way you can only care about this you can only hate these people you can't change your mind you can't change your mind you can't be free because of all the risk that comes with opening yourself up to unknown things and so idolization keeps relationship from happening it stagnates it it makes it cold
• 26:56
  Hot take.
• 26:57
  Hot take.
• 26:58
  Hot take.
• 26:58
  New hot take.
• 26:59
  Oh, new hot take.
• 27:00
  Nail on the head.
• 27:01
  Brands are idols.
• 27:03
  Oh, yes.
• 27:04
  Our whole job is to create idols.
• 27:06
  Yeah.
• 27:07
  They have rules.
• 27:08
  They have guidelines.
• 27:11
  Yeah.
• 27:11
  They have the exterior, the polished exterior.
• 27:15
  And the whole point is to make people worship them.
• 27:17
  The whole point is to make people obsess and want to consume and be with, and yet they
• 27:23
  And at a distance.
• 27:24
  Yeah.
• 27:25
  You don't have control over it.
• 27:26
  You don't have reciprocity from it.
• 27:29
  You don't get to dictate to the brand what the brand does.
• 27:33
  But the brand gets to...
• 27:35
  set the rules and rules.
• 27:37
  That's funny.
• 27:38
  And we don't typically do like interview style on this, but I am curious as someone who is in a hot seat now.
• 27:46
  I'm like the president.
• 27:47
  Get ready, Lindsay.
• 27:48
  As someone who has been a brand designer, but is now really focused on your natural media art, fine art, like,
• 27:57
  What's what has that been like?
• 27:59
  And to move from having to build brands up to be idols to now.
• 28:05
  Build yourself up.
• 28:06
  Yeah.
• 28:07
  You're the brand.
• 28:08
  You're focused like you have focused all your brand energy into yourself.
• 28:12
  Yeah.
• 28:13
  Well, I mean, the most obvious being that that gave me the skills to be able to
• 28:19
  to do art successfully, right?
• 28:20
  Cause I've tried before and failed multiple times because I didn't know the business side.
• 28:25
  I didn't know the marketing side.
• 28:28
  But I think learning, I think my biggest lesson from moving from
• 28:32
  one thing to the other and how to do it properly or at least in a way that works for me is authenticity right and not not falling into that to that idle trap that you know look at my art it's the best this is don't you want that you know so I don't present it that way or at least I try not to no you don't actually I think you do it really well just want to focus on
• 28:56
  you know, making the viewers and whether they're collectors or not feel invested and feel part of the process and at least try to tap in, invite them to tap into what, I guess, sensations that practice provides me.
• 29:13
  So I don't know.
• 29:14
  I don't know.
• 29:16
  And I got away from the overpolished, you know,
• 29:20
  content that I share that I used to do for myself as a brand designer and interior designer and then for other you know clients as well um and I would become just obsessed with how that's reading for that client or for for my own business and so getting away from that and so you feel more authentic in doing your art yes you know it's interesting but I didn't when I tried it years before right I didn't understand how like what not to do you just not care now
• 29:50
  I mean, I care.
• 29:51
  No, but like what gave you that like, what gave you that sense of like, I can be who I am now?
• 29:57
  Honestly, this is going to make me cry.
• 29:59
  I'm going to try not to cry.
• 30:00
  My daughter.
• 30:02
  Her ratings will go up if you cry.
• 30:04
  When I was, well, when I was, I think, you know, making sure that she understands that it's okay to be herself, obviously, is something that I want to instill in parenting that I have to constantly remind myself multiple times a day.
• 30:17
  But I think when I was on the precipice of, do I stop my design work and go full-time artists?
• 30:25
  Do I try to do both?
• 30:28
  One of the, I guess, final nudges for me, I think it was when she first started going to Mountain City or Little Grove.
• 30:35
  And we were at one of the events, it might've been an open house or something, I don't remember exactly what,
• 30:42
  And she's never met a stranger, so she'll go up and introduce whoever.
• 30:46
  This is my mom.
• 30:47
  She's an artist.
• 30:48
  Oh, my God.
• 30:49
  And I've never really allowed myself to call myself that before.
• 30:53
  I love that.
• 30:54
  And that was right when I was kind of making that decision, do I shut the client door to focus on this?
• 31:01
  I love that.
• 31:02
  So that gave me, I guess, the remission.
• 31:04
  That's so awesome.
• 31:05
  Yeah.
• 31:06
  And I think you've done a really good job with the transition.
• 31:09
  I used to be a big fan of your, Tim and I both were, your really polished, like designed, like your, I liked how you used to.
• 31:16
  That's an embarrassing amount of time on that.
• 31:17
  I know, I can imagine.
• 31:18
  No one will say that truth.
• 31:20
  Right, right.
• 31:21
  It's a deep obsession and you have to give, sacrifice yourself to make that work.
• 31:27
  And going back to art was to kind of not cure, but as a treatment for that perfectionism, right?
• 31:32
  And pull yourself away from it.
• 31:34
  Yeah.
• 31:36
  I got to brag about you a little bit because I think the way that you did that transition and the authenticity part, like she makes her own charcoal.
• 31:47
  Like she'll actually go and get sticks and burn them down in a can and then use them to draw.
• 31:53
  That's me.
• 31:55
  And she would like...
• 31:57
  That's my desperation to get away from the computer.
• 31:59
  Yeah, touch the material.
• 32:02
  It's the coolest fucking thing.
• 32:03
  I love it.
• 32:04
  And I think I could see as if, you know, if I were like this big art collector.
• 32:09
  Which you will be one day.
• 32:11
  Me and you both.
• 32:12
  Absolutely.
• 32:12
  You are.
• 32:13
  You're just not buying them yet.
• 32:14
  Yes, yes.
• 32:15
  I'm collecting them in here.
• 32:18
  I'm saving them in Instagram.
• 32:20
  But that will be my final form, is patron of the arts.
• 32:23
  Oh, hell yeah.
• 32:24
  That's the mountain I'm climbing.
• 32:25
  Absolutely.
• 32:25
  A hundred percent.
• 32:26
  Same page, same page.
• 32:27
  Is that your idol?
• 32:28
  Admirable.
• 32:30
  My idol's myself.
• 32:31
  No, your future self.
• 32:33
  Yeah, maybe.
• 32:33
  Yeah.
• 32:34
  I could buy that.
• 32:35
  Yeah.
• 32:35
  It's not a bad thing.
• 32:37
  Oh, well, here's the thing about why I asked you about being authentic, being an artist, is that I just watched this interview with Seth Godin.
• 32:43
  You know him?
• 32:43
  He wrote The Gap and...
• 32:47
  I don't know what it's called.
• 32:47
  Who cares?
• 32:48
  Seth Godin, we all know.
• 32:49
  He was just talking to someone about authenticity.
• 32:52
  And he said that authenticity is a problem because people say it and it's not possible.
• 32:59
  And I'm going to...
• 33:00
  He says, when you go to see your doctor, you don't want them to be authentically themselves.
• 33:04
  You want them to be their best self working on you.
• 33:06
  That's right.
• 33:07
  When you go to anyone you see.
• 33:09
  And so when you sign up to do social media, you don't want to see someone be authentically themselves on any given day.
• 33:15
  You want them to show you their best stuff.
• 33:17
  That's what you're paying for.
• 33:18
  So these people that are saying they want to be authentic are just...
• 33:22
  getting away from the point or getting away from the job that they're doing, the part they're playing.
• 33:27
  And he also said perfectionism.
• 33:29
  How perfectionism is just someone stating that it'll never be perfect, so I never have to deliver.
• 33:35
  And it's funny you bring both words up in the same story because I think they are these weird, but when it comes to art, it's different because art is an expression.
• 33:44
  You want...
• 33:45
  I mean, maybe this is wrong.
• 33:46
  Maybe when Michael Jackson or when Queen or when Bono gets on stage, do you want them to come out and be authentically themselves?
• 33:54
  Or do you want them to come out and perform the song you came to see?
• 33:56
  Hmm.
• 33:57
  I want each song to be different.
• 33:59
  Because I've listened to it.
• 34:00
  Than the record, yeah.
• 34:02
  Like going to see Pearl Jam ages ago, and they end it with this epic version of Yellow Leadbetter that was so different from the album that I was like, oh.
• 34:12
  I'm just fascinated by this idea of authenticity.
• 34:15
  Because I feel like I've always wanted to be authentic.
• 34:19
  But do people want to see authenticity, really?
• 34:24
  You know, when you see authenticity, it's very uncomfortable.
• 34:27
  Yeah.
• 34:27
  You know, your authenticity shows up beautiful.
• 34:30
  I mean, like your work and everything.
• 34:32
  But there are some people in their authenticity are a broken down thing.
• 34:36
  There are also people who hold up the word authenticity as a way to justify being a dick.
• 34:43
  Yes.
• 34:43
  That's true.
• 34:44
  Just call it.
• 34:45
  Like they're telling you the truth.
• 34:46
  Like they're disrespectful.
• 34:47
  Like they're disrespectful.
• 34:49
  Yeah.
• 34:49
  He says it like, yeah.
• 34:50
  This is who I am.
• 34:52
  He's authentic.
• 34:55
  Oh, well, probably.
• 34:56
  I think it's all.
• 34:58
  Oh, I think so, too.
• 35:00
  When you when we first brought up the topic of authenticity and how that sort of helps us draw the line between idolatry and something else, natural gravitation and attraction, I guess, is the opposite.
• 35:15
  Yeah.
• 35:17
  I started trying to think of what breaks idolatry.
• 35:21
  What are the tools?
• 35:23
  And authenticity is one.
• 35:24
  I find that very, very difficult because I seek to perform in all ways.
• 35:30
  And that shouldn't be frowned upon.
• 35:31
  Like performance isn't a bad thing.
• 35:33
  Right.
• 35:34
  Like a doctor.
• 35:35
  You want a doctor to perform at a certain level.
• 35:37
  You want actors in a play to perform.
• 35:39
  Yeah.
• 35:40
  Actors in a movie to perform.
• 35:41
  You want athletes to perform.
• 35:42
  It's actually a wonderful...
• 35:45
  I think there's something about the American spirit that is about performance and achievement.
• 35:49
  And we've taken it to an extreme and idolized parts of it.
• 35:53
  But I wonder if a component for me that breaks it down and makes something more connective and real is the ability to be messy or the permission to be messy and or the permission to change your mind.
• 36:09
  Yeah.
• 36:09
  Feel confident to step forward and say, I'm changing.
• 36:13
  That's a huge thing.
• 36:14
  And I think maybe it kind of touched on in the past, maybe at some AIGA meetings or something, but...
• 36:23
  Where, you know, you kind of know a little bit of my work history where I was doing strictly brand design.
• 36:28
  And then I started looping in interiors more again and doing things together.
• 36:32
  And then, you know, so it's this whole multidisciplinary thing, right?
• 36:38
  And there's the whole battle on that.
• 36:39
  Like, is it good or bad?
• 36:41
  Is it good or bad?
• 36:41
  Like, I don't want to be a Jill of all trades, but also...
• 36:45
  you know, can show that you can do these different things and every project can be different.
• 36:49
  It's great.
• 36:50
  And it is fun and interesting, but a big part of that, and also leading into deciding whether or not to leave design behind and go for art again, is this...
• 37:03
  like how is that going to read to other people?
• 37:04
  How is the fact that I'm changing my mind?
• 37:06
  Does it show that I'm not committing?
• 37:08
  Does it show that I can't stay focused?
• 37:10
  Because I can.
• 37:11
  And I think I finally was able to, you know, give myself permission and even pat myself on the back a little bit for being able to see when another door opens or when it's time to pivot.
• 37:24
  Like I had a really big contract with a publishing company.
• 37:27
  I was the art director for several publications.
• 37:30
  Wow.
• 37:31
  And the company was, you know, there's an acquisition and 90% of their staff was laid off.
• 37:35
  Their contracts were terminated.
• 37:37
  And that was one of mine.
• 37:39
  And it was right before COVID.
• 37:44
  Luckily, you know, thanks to all the moonlighting and others, you know, I had plenty of clients.
• 37:50
  So I was like, okay, this is my time to go with that.
• 37:52
  And I didn't pursue any other employment or bigger contracts.
• 37:56
  I just kept the clients that I had and continued to grow from there.
• 38:00
  And then, you know, the next time something like that happened, pivot, pivot, pivot, instead of panic.
• 38:05
  I mean, there was some panic there.
• 38:06
  I'm not going to say that.
• 38:08
  Pivot, pivot, panic, pivot.
• 38:10
  You know, like, I see a commission in our future, pivot, don't panic.
• 38:15
  Oh, I like that.
• 38:16
  But that was a big struggle for part of it was, you know, how has this looked to everyone else?
• 38:21
  So there's family to people who have.
• 38:23
  following my Instagram for years, and they see me doing this, and now she's doing that.
• 38:26
  What does she do?
• 38:27
  She's all over the place.
• 38:27
  Does she even know herself?
• 38:29
  Right.
• 38:29
  Does she put it in the end?
• 38:31
  Yeah.
• 38:31
  And I finally just said, screw it.
• 38:34
  No.
• 38:34
  You're doing it for you.
• 38:35
  I'm really putting you on a pedestal right now.
• 38:37
  It's becoming a problem.
• 38:38
  Don't idolize me.
• 38:40
  Don't idolize me.
• 38:41
  Don't.
• 38:41
  Never said I was a role model.
• 38:44
  I, you know, I've talked about this in the dumbest terms.
• 38:47
  I tend to reduce something down to a really stupid example.
• 38:50
  Here's an example of a stupid example.
• 38:52
  I talk about cutting my hair, changing my hairstyle.
• 38:56
  One, because my hair is one of the first things people notice about me.
• 38:59
  Whatever, move that aside.
• 39:01
  When I cut my hair, if I do especially a significant shift, like I chopped a lot of my hair off a couple years ago,
• 39:09
  I feel this sense of distrust.
• 39:12
  Almost like people can't pin me down.
• 39:14
  They thought I was this.
• 39:15
  I think there's a whole gender thing tied up in it.
• 39:18
  Yeah.
• 39:18
  Like, oh, I thought, but wait, are we still, what's my, I'm like, nothing has changed here, baby.
• 39:24
  Like, why is this such a big deal to you?
• 39:27
  Still new.
• 39:27
  I'm sorry to bring that up.
• 39:29
  I know because you've got the story about shaving your head unexpectedly.
• 39:33
  But I think it gives people pause and it doesn't give us, it makes us feel as if we don't have social permission to evolve or to become someone else or to experiment or express ourselves in a different way to discover ourselves through a process.
• 39:49
  And does that come back to other people and how they idolize us and their, you know, people just have to know too much?
• 39:56
  Like, why?
• 39:56
  We don't have to.
• 39:58
  I'm just obsessed with my hair.
• 40:00
  It's a nosey.
• 40:01
  It's a nosey.
• 40:01
  Real.
• 40:02
  We are the nosiest world ever.
• 40:05
  The nosiest civilization.
• 40:07
  I got small town trauma.
• 40:08
  What's going on?
• 40:10
  Don't.
• 40:10
  What you doing?
• 40:10
  Nosy, nosy.
• 40:11
  Oh my gosh.
• 40:12
  Yeah.
• 40:13
  Well, I think...
• 40:15
  I will say that there is an intersection between authenticity and originality.
• 40:20
  I think oftentimes, if you are truly showing up authentic and if your work is truly authentic, then perhaps if you, whatever your uniqueness is, shines through that.
• 40:34
  And something comes to mind recently, and it was, I don't know if you guys saw Rebel Ice Cream is getting...
• 40:41
  Sorry, post, yeah.
• 40:42
  Yeah, they got... Rebel Ice Cream?
• 40:43
  Yeah, Rebel Ice Cream got sued by the Van... Van Luen.
• 40:49
  Van Luen.
• 40:49
  And Van Luen, who was branded by Pentagram, Rebel Ice Cream, the owners, did it themselves.
• 40:57
  And instead of trying to be their authentic selves and show their originality, they completely copy the Van Luen plan.
• 41:06
  I don't necessarily think they copied it because it says that the Van Luen brand was only released a year.
• 41:10
  before the release of rebel but it was out I know but from a product standpoint you're designing that brand for packaging and two years ahead if you're gonna get things on the shelf it's like it could have been this it was just all looking at the same Pinterest board like it was just really bad I think it was horrible timing and all of a sudden you've got like a palette that was popular
• 41:31
  You have script writing that's popular, and you have minimalists, which is popular, and all of a sudden it ends in the same place.
• 41:38
  Well, the sadness is it cost them $23 million, and they're folding.
• 41:42
  They file Chapter 11.
• 41:44
  Don't you think this is true?
• 41:46
  I don't care what you think.
• 41:47
  This is true.
• 41:48
  This is true.
• 41:49
  Whatever you say, this is what I believe.
• 41:53
  Because of the Internet, because of globalization and the constant receipts,
• 41:59
  You know, you would have stories of people putting on shows or like circus acts with fake idols, fake things that they dug up.
• 42:10
  Like they heard about a fossil that had been discovered in South America and somebody would replicate it and go on tour and pretend like they had the original thing.
• 42:19
  We had no way of tracking that or understanding that because journalism and documentation couldn't keep up with people.
• 42:26
  We couldn't pin people down.
• 42:27
  But now, because everything's everywhere all at once, and you can get both of those in a grocery store, presumably, if you're in the right place in the country.
• 42:37
  Same show.
• 42:37
  Somebody notices.
• 42:39
  Somebody's IP lawyer is out there hunting these things down.
• 42:43
  Disney is a great example of this.
• 42:45
  So it does, it seems to me like we're going to have a rash of these.
• 42:50
  We're about to have a moment where a bunch of people are designing something behind closed doors, not intending to do harm to a competitor.
• 42:57
  Using the same inspiration.
• 42:59
  And analyzing the same market and saying, hey, I want to capture the highest value opportunity here and designing to that.
• 43:08
  And we're getting pretty good at designing fit for function, right?
• 43:11
  Right.
• 43:12
  And unique is only first to the market.
• 43:14
  There's nothing unique about design.
• 43:17
  I mean, we had one episode where we talked about authenticity, and it came down to your experience.
• 43:22
  The original nature of your experience is the only thing unique about this life.
• 43:26
  Right.
• 43:27
  You're going to create stuff.
• 43:28
  If you write songs, if you paint paintings, whatever you do is going to be inspired and put together by the things you've seen.
• 43:35
  You're going to be copying things.
• 43:36
  You just have to copy in a way where it doesn't feel like the thing that you found your inspiration for.
• 43:41
  Right.
• 43:42
  But capitalism says I'm losing money because this brand looks like too much like me.
• 43:46
  So that's wrong.
• 43:47
  So I'm going to take this brand down so that I can stand alone as an idol and make as much money as possible.
• 43:52
  But who said it was wrong to look the same?
• 43:55
  Right.
• 43:55
  Right.
• 43:56
  Well, yeah.
• 43:57
  Copyright trade trademark laws.
• 43:59
  Right.
• 43:59
  Copyright because of people trying to steal it and other people thinking I want all the money.
• 44:05
  You also...
• 44:06
  Sorry, this is a fence that I've been building.
• 44:08
  Look, look, no, no!
• 44:09
  I was like, what's happening?
• 44:10
  I could see it in my periphery.
• 44:12
  I'm like, what is she building?
• 44:13
  Mary, calm down.
• 44:14
  I'm potting.
• 44:15
  It's like that scene in Ghost.
• 44:17
  There's somebody behind me.
• 44:18
  You want to go behind her?
• 44:19
  Yeah.
• 44:19
  She's like centering some clay in my periphery.
• 44:22
  And I'm like, what?
• 44:24
  Yeah, to me more.
• 44:24
  No, another thing I predict we're going to see, and it's already happening, so...
• 44:32
  I think that our nuance on IP law is going to get so specific.
• 44:37
  Because so many people make money off of either licensing or commanding a space in terms of specific visual assets, shapes and colors can be trademarked.
• 44:50
  Who made a rule that you could own a color?
• 44:52
  I know.
• 44:53
  That's so dumb.
• 44:54
  I think that was the thing that really got Rebel in trouble.
• 44:57
  Red?
• 44:58
  You own red for it?
• 44:59
  With Rebel.
• 44:59
  You own red.
• 45:00
  Red.
• 45:00
  Red had been around.
• 45:01
  And how did you find it?
• 45:03
  But I will say, though, I think with Rebel, it was the combination of the same color palette, same bold, black, scripty font, and then... Yeah, but... And somebody decided that that was sufficient to take somebody to court.
• 45:16
  No, but whatever the color swatch company, they put out a color of the year.
• 45:21
  Antone.
• 45:21
  Antone.
• 45:22
  They put out a color of the year.
• 45:23
  That's the same color.
• 45:24
  That's true.
• 45:25
  So is everyone allowed to use that color?
• 45:26
  Or only one company that brings it out first?
• 45:28
  Right.
• 45:28
  Right.
• 45:29
  That's what I'm saying.
• 45:30
  Fuck that.
• 45:31
  Like protection.
• 45:33
  Like I need to make all mine.
• 45:34
  Preach, Tim.
• 45:35
  I just feel like it's out of control.
• 45:37
  And maybe because we built a system that eats itself.
• 45:40
  I mean, we are very litigation happy in this.
• 45:44
  I mean, God, man, people are just looking for reasons to like sue people.
• 45:49
  That's like...
• 45:50
  It's gonna be interesting.
• 45:51
  It's very weird.
• 45:51
  Like I don't even know what you can't.
• 45:53
  We're so broke as a civilization that the only way we can get rich is to sue other people.
• 45:59
  It seems like that's what's happening.
• 46:00
  Like you mentioned Mr.
• 46:01
  Beast and no one can copy Mr.
• 46:03
  Beast.
• 46:04
  There have been people that have tried but you can't copy that presence.
• 46:08
  So that's where it's coming to this place of like who are you in person is the only thing left.
• 46:15
  Until AI can really copy that, which I don't even know that humans would accept it.
• 46:19
  It's almost like a virus that your body can't accept.
• 46:21
  Like, if this is a fake Mr.
• 46:22
  Beast, I don't even want to watch it.
• 46:24
  If this is a fake U2 playing me songs or fake- At some point, we revolt as a civilization.
• 46:30
  We say, no.
• 46:31
  Right.
• 46:31
  I think it's already started.
• 46:32
  The line has been crossed.
• 46:34
  Yeah, I think so, too.
• 46:35
  It is with art, too.
• 46:36
  I mean-
• 46:37
  Oh, my gosh.
• 46:38
  Thank goodness, at least for now, it's working in our favor.
• 46:41
  And people prefer those imperfections and those blemishes and those maker's marks, right?
• 46:46
  Yeah.
• 46:46
  We're building on that principle.
• 46:48
  And I hope that pans out for us because this is low fidelity.
• 46:51
  Is this our maker's mark?
• 46:53
  Nobody's going to AI copy this.
• 46:56
  Why would they want to?
• 46:57
  When we can transcend, when we can get through this litigious period where we're fighting and trying to defend and getting crazy about it, it's going to get so playful and vibrant and fun.
• 47:07
  I'm imagining a world where somebody goes to the effort to make an AI avatar of me and come up with things for the AI avatar to say.
• 47:14
  That would be hilarious.
• 47:15
  And I'm like, okay, if we get to that point, how do we clown it?
• 47:20
  How do we invest in the bit?
• 47:23
  Right, and that's the thing you were saying about brand becoming idols.
• 47:25
  I think it's easy to idolize a surface, a superficial quality.
• 47:31
  Yeah.
• 47:31
  And you can copy a superficial quality, like the two ice cream companies.
• 47:35
  But I guarantee you the heart of those companies, the soul of why they do what they do is different.
• 47:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:40
  And if that were more visible...
• 47:42
  But maybe it's not a matter, maybe there's only a certain amount of ways to be visible.
• 47:47
  Like if both companies like minimalism.
• 47:50
  You know, if both companies like this color palette, it's OK to like the same thing, right?
• 47:55
  Like we can all buy the same album, right?
• 47:57
  You're not going to sue me for buying the album that you own.
• 47:59
  I probably won't.
• 48:02
  But the people that buy Rebel are not the same people that buy Van Leeuwen.
• 48:06
  Because Rebel was a keto ice cream.
• 48:09
  Yeah.
• 48:09
  Van Leeuwen is a normal ice cream.
• 48:11
  It's a normal ice cream.
• 48:11
  So you're like, it's a different audience.
• 48:13
  Although maybe there's some consumer insight that says, hey, more people want to be in this alternative diet.
• 48:21
  You know, there's all kinds of reasons.
• 48:22
  Apparently, because they sued them.
• 48:23
  So there's some reason they failed.
• 48:24
  Now you're coming out with a healthier ice cream and you have a very similar brand.
• 48:29
  There's fear there.
• 48:29
  That's my question.
• 48:31
  And I don't know that I'll ever get an answer.
• 48:33
  And I think the market will sort itself out over time.
• 48:36
  I'm kind of bummed that I'm living through it.
• 48:38
  Hopefully we can accelerate it by having real conversations like this and just get through this angsty teenage phase that the United States is having and the world maybe is having.
• 48:48
  But I deeply wonder, yes, you've talked about culturally trending toward minimalism and who can own that?
• 48:55
  Like
• 49:00
  But I think a lot of these decisions are actually being made based on a very narrow, we're looking for intersectional consumer segments, right, where maximum impact can be found, niching.
• 49:10
  They both sort of looked at the same niche.
• 49:13
  And I imagine maybe Van Leeuwen was trying to fence in that niche.
• 49:18
  You get it.
• 49:19
  That's the fence.
• 49:20
  Oh, that's what you were building.
• 49:21
  The fencing.
• 49:22
  They were trying to protect that market share and hold it for themselves.
• 49:27
  Meanwhile, from their perception, probably, another company has come in and targeted that group and said, hey, you want to jump fence and come over to this site?
• 49:37
  And maybe it was sneaky or maybe it wasn't.
• 49:40
  But either way, they were designing with those people in mind.
• 49:43
  So they arrived at the same solution because those people wanted that thing.
• 49:47
  But to that, I say, if they can be stolen from you, were they even your customer to begin with?
• 49:54
  Are you doing a good enough job?
• 49:55
  If somebody can just steal them away, you must not have a very fertile...
• 49:59
  happy place that they're living, or you're not listening to their needs.
• 50:03
  You need to evolve with them and be in relationship with them.
• 50:06
  Or yeah, people are gonna jet.
• 50:09
  Right.
• 50:09
  And get permission.
• 50:10
  Okay, I got a good statement here.
• 50:11
  It doesn't matter how it looks, it matters how it lives.
• 50:14
  Yeah.
• 50:15
  That's the thing we get stuck on is the look.
• 50:17
  But you can buy the best looking car, but if it doesn't live well, like I can't buy a sports car because I have three kids.
• 50:24
  That would live horribly.
• 50:26
  I don't care how it looks.
• 50:28
  It doesn't live well.
• 50:29
  And I think branding is the same way.
• 50:31
  You can make your brand look a certain way, but the way it lives.
• 50:34
  And I think the world is coming around.
• 50:35
  Maybe we're creating enough technology to see how something lives really from a lot of different perspective.
• 50:40
  Oh, yeah.
• 50:41
  Video and live and all of these different and feedback.
• 50:44
  We can like people back like that.
• 50:47
  Yeah, so you can see how something's alive, and that's what makes something unique, something that's alive.
• 50:53
  Something that's an idol and stationary and glossed in gold, but the inner core is just hollow.
• 50:59
  It's like a chocolate bunny that has no thinner chocolate.
• 51:02
  It's just hollow.
• 51:03
  Great analogy, the chocolate bunny.
• 51:05
  The important part is to pay attention to that, right?
• 51:07
  Like you said, if you're jumping ship that quickly, then you haven't been...
• 51:12
  Yeah, you had no foundation to be with.
• 51:13
  You were there out of necessity, not out of love, being able to pivot.
• 51:17
  Like if it's a career change and stuff, being able to pay attention.
• 51:20
  Like the technique that I do right now, specifically with charcoal and wood, it literally came from me dropping charcoal on some wood and weeks later when I cleaned it up, paying attention to that mark and like, oh, I want to, this is interesting.
• 51:33
  I could have just tossed it and I probably would have if I cleaned it up right away.
• 51:37
  Right.
• 51:38
  You know, so like being able to pay attention to those cues.
• 51:40
  What a happy accident.
• 51:41
  I love that.
• 51:42
  Hints.
• 51:42
  Even the brand and like how it's performing.
• 51:46
  Would you ever go back to brand design?
• 51:49
  Are you so over it now?
• 51:50
  You look at us and you're like, you guys are doing some shit.
• 51:53
  I don't even know why you're doing what you're doing.
• 51:55
  I know how hard it is.
• 51:56
  I'm going to ask a different question with the same intention.
• 52:00
  Do you take commissions?
• 52:02
  Yes.
• 52:03
  There you go.
• 52:04
  That's the way the world is going, in my opinion.
• 52:06
  Have a very different, like...
• 52:08
  way of doing it too totally i'll bet that's so that it doesn't feel like client work again right yeah and the whole point is if i want to commission you the artist you want her work it needs to be they don't get to weigh in and i'll feel it they don't get to say what you're going to do you're like i think this is they take the size they tell me what they're most drawn to what about my work they're most what inspires them yeah awesome wow what if branding was more like that
• 52:33
  Oh, man.
• 52:33
  Can you imagine?
• 52:35
  Reggie, I want to hire you and just make whatever you want.
• 52:37
  Do you know how many other couple clients like that, maybe?
• 52:39
  I mean, I think at the early days when you are really close and they had time with you, then they are that trusting.
• 52:47
  But I think in this world, everyone is so afraid of failing and doing what's wrong.
• 52:51
  Right.
• 52:51
  And that they're like tight grip.
• 52:53
  Like, this has got to be perfect.
• 52:55
  And we've got to nail this.
• 52:57
  And it loses that...
• 52:59
  that like, I think when I used to describe my creative experience is like going in a dark room.
• 53:04
  Your process.
• 53:05
  My process.
• 53:06
  Now you literally have one.
• 53:07
  I mean, I would go into a project, no idea how I'm going to come to the result.
• 53:12
  And I'm like feeling my way around in the room and I'm looking at knocking things over and I'm like stumbling over myself.
• 53:18
  And then all of a sudden I start to feel around and it starts to make sense.
• 53:21
  And it's almost like I get that like.
• 53:23
  daredevil, you know, where he can see even though he's blind.
• 53:26
  And I start to see everything happen.
• 53:28
  That's so funny.
• 53:29
  That's how it would feel.
• 53:30
  I never see it before it happens.
• 53:32
  Isn't that the weirdest thing?
• 53:33
  I actually love that our processors are so different because mine is completely the opposite of that.
• 53:38
  Do you go into a lit room and knock things over?
• 53:39
  Yeah.
• 53:41
  No, there's just been so many times where I am, especially for brand design and I'm in discovery, I am actually asking questions.
• 53:50
  And while people are talking and I'm learning more about their business in real time, I think part of it honestly was kind of a...
• 53:58
  almost like a crutch because I hated taking notes and I hated having to go back and look at those notes later.
• 54:06
  Like there was just so much extra work and it's tedious.
• 54:09
  And so I would be really active.
• 54:11
  I would record the session, but I'm really engaged and actively listening in the session.
• 54:16
  And I'd say probably...
• 54:18
  I mean, I probably have designed 15 marks literally in the meeting in my head where I just had to go and execute it later.
• 54:27
  And so I already knew I walked out of the meeting already knowing exactly what the brand was going to look like.
• 54:32
  And even if I pitched two different concepts, it was always the one that I came up with in the meeting in my head that they went for.
• 54:39
  So what if you were to do that?
• 54:42
  And then you get into design and you design it and you pitch it and they love it.
• 54:46
  And then you release it or you start looking deeper and someone says, hey, this other brand already had that.
• 54:50
  Looks just like that, yeah.
• 54:51
  What do you do then?
• 54:52
  Well, I say, guys, I hope you have $23 million because they're going to sue you.
• 54:56
  I'm leaving it.
• 54:57
  It ain't on me.
• 54:58
  No revisions.
• 54:59
  This is a huge issue in our industry, though.
• 55:02
  I can't tell you how many naming projects I've worked on where people will pick a name and then they get halfway through the trademark vetting process.
• 55:09
  Hopefully they have their own trademark vetting process because I am not an IP attorney and I tell them that every time.
• 55:15
  They either they skip the process or they gloss over the process.
• 55:20
  And then they discover that either there's somebody who has it completely and that's a bus and they have to go back to the drawing board or there's something that's very similar that they didn't use the right keyword search to find.
• 55:31
  So it really takes category immersion and feeling confident that you've
• 55:36
  explored and traversed the space.
• 55:38
  And frankly, I mean, there are a lot of agencies that hyper specialize in certain industries because of this.
• 55:45
  And you may hire an agency for that reason, but there's also a lot of value in bringing fresh thinking and cross-category thinking
• 55:52
  And those agencies that you hire for that purpose, the big picture guys, you got to be the fallback.
• 55:58
  You got to be the one to bring the market insight, to bring the inside subject matter experts.
• 56:04
  And I think when we ask for that on a project team, people tend to think that I'm being high maintenance or whatever, or prissy because I have such a process mindset.
• 56:12
  But that's really important.
• 56:14
  If you're going to take the fall, if you're going to have the risk, you need to have somebody in the room who can advise and be...
• 56:22
  watching out for supervising the process and saying, ah, actually, I think we're getting into hot water here.
• 56:28
  But I agree that branch should be more like a commission than like a...
• 56:33
  Engineering.
• 56:34
  But what do you say to people who don't have all the time and money and resources to do that hard work that you're talking about?
• 56:40
  It's like when my wife wanted to start her business, we can't go into market research and have trademark lawyers and all this.
• 56:48
  That's only the things that the big guys can afford.
• 56:51
  And then they sue the little guys.
• 56:52
  It's all about the client.
• 56:53
  Yeah.
• 56:54
  But of course, this is your wife, so you can't.
• 56:55
  I mean, any small company, my wife's a small little company, but any company of small, I think under a million dollars or two million dollars, they're running at the edge of survival.
• 57:07
  They don't have lawyers in the back room looking through everything, and so they get caught in a suit with Van Leeuwen that may have had the group of lawyers in the background.
• 57:16
  If they can hire Pentagram, they can take down Rebel.
• 57:18
  They could definitely take down Rebel.
• 57:20
  Which is, it starts to reveal the absurdity of it all, right, and something that,
• 57:25
  When I realized it about trademark law, I don't know a lot about IP law.
• 57:28
  Most of what I know is about trademark.
• 57:30
  What I realized about trademark law that reframed the whole thing for me is it's only as valuable.
• 57:37
  Your trademark is only as valuable as the enforcement you put behind it.
• 57:40
  Cops are not looking for trademark infringement.
• 57:43
  You have to have attorneys, researchers doing that work.
• 57:47
  And somebody like Disney is known for being really on top of that and incredibly litigious.
• 57:53
  They really are.
• 57:54
  They have ruined some careers because people infringed on their IP.
• 57:58
  They also don't.
• 57:59
  They'll pay people up front in lump sums, and then you don't get royalties off of the mega billions of dollars they make.
• 58:05
  But I think it's revealing this.
• 58:07
  What you're saying is a real problem.
• 58:10
  I don't think anybody's going to come for your wife until she hits a scale that's threatening.
• 58:14
  Right.
• 58:15
  right but isn't that a there's an analogy and a metaphor there that we can learn from around oh when you step into your power when you really become a movement when you get the force of people and support behind you you're going to be a threat to someone someone is going to get afraid and and we got to navigate that as a society how do we handle that i don't know you think there's enough room for everybody
• 58:38
  If everybody will do it their own different way, if you'll do it the authentic, original way, you're impossible to.
• 58:45
  Can everyone do it their own original way?
• 58:47
  Because if somebody's original is too close to somebody else's original, they're going to get sued.
• 58:52
  I mean, that's just good.
• 58:54
  I think there is room.
• 58:55
  I think that's what the whole open source movement was about and should still be about is...
• 59:02
  If we work together, we will get further.
• 59:05
  When it comes to research, when it comes to building a market.
• 59:09
  Like, who in God's name thinks Amazon is a healthy thing to have in our world?
• 59:15
  That is not a healthy growth.
• 59:17
  We're guilty of using it.
• 59:19
  And there is no room.
• 59:21
  Multiple people can't be multi-billion dollar companies.
• 59:25
  When that becomes the standard or the goal, obviously you're gonna take everyone out you can because you need more room.
• 59:31
  If a tree's gonna grow that big, it needs the whole ground.
• 59:34
  It needs all the nutrients possible.
• 59:37
  I don't know if the way we've built our world
• 59:41
  sets an incentive or standard to allow room for other people.
• 59:45
  Like a company doesn't have to grow to that level to still be successful, to still live a good life and to provide a good service.
• 59:51
  I just wonder, like when you become a trillion dollar company like Apple, like at what point is enough enough?
• 59:56
  Like at what point like they and they literally just raised all the prices on all of their stuff.
• 1:00:01
  And I'm like, if you're a trillion dollar company, you can afford to absorb the
• 1:00:05
  increase, which they said they already had.
• 1:00:07
  But like, keep absorbing it.
• 1:00:09
  Like, you're a trillion dollar company.
• 1:00:11
  That's more money than like, you can't even fathom that amount of money.
• 1:00:17
  Like, one person or even a hundred people couldn't spend that in a lifetime.
• 1:00:21
  Oh no.
• 1:00:22
  It's ridiculous.
• 1:00:23
  My daughter's like, can we count to a million?
• 1:00:25
  I was like, I think we could.
• 1:00:26
  It takes like
• 1:00:27
  38 days counting like for eight hours a day or something crazy.
• 1:00:31
  Or maybe that's 24 hours a day.
• 1:00:32
  That's a measurable amount of time.
• 1:00:34
  You know, to count to a billion takes like 38 years for something crazy.
• 1:00:39
  Or maybe a hundred.
• 1:00:40
  It was something astronomically, like you couldn't do it in a lifetime.
• 1:00:44
  You have that many dollars.
• 1:00:46
  I know.
• 1:00:47
  And so just to know that, I don't even think we comprehend money anymore.
• 1:00:51
  We're at a million, billion, trillion, trillion, whatever.
• 1:00:53
  There's a guy who does a really good job of putting that into context.
• 1:00:56
  And he'll have...
• 1:00:57
  Like he'll use like either cups, the guy that used the cups.
• 1:01:00
  There's another guy I've seen use it with rice.
• 1:01:03
  And he'll say, okay, here's this little pile of rice right here.
• 1:01:06
  That is $4 million or whatever.
• 1:01:09
  Or $100 million.
• 1:01:10
  So that's a serious, solid millionaire.
• 1:01:14
  And then you look at this big, giant pile.
• 1:01:17
  It's like, that's a billionaire.
• 1:01:19
  And you're just like...
• 1:01:20
  And then you're like, where's Elon Musk?
• 1:01:22
  I know.
• 1:01:23
  And then you go, a trillionaire?
• 1:01:26
  That is just...
• 1:01:27
  So we built a market that doesn't have room for everybody.
• 1:01:30
  Yeah.
• 1:01:30
  And that is the way capitalism works.
• 1:01:33
  It'd have to be completely started.
• 1:01:34
  Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  Scarcity.
• 1:01:35
  We'd have to tear everything down to the ground and rebuild it like we should with our political system.
• 1:01:41
  Like what if they tore Amazon down?
• 1:01:43
  I mean, everyone would complain because they don't get free shipping and instant access.
• 1:01:47
  Right.
• 1:01:47
  But what would come up in its place?
• 1:01:49
  How many different local communities would pop up out of the space?
• 1:01:57
  I agree with you that we've gotten out of hand and that there's no way with the current... Oh, my wife's hairs is on me.
• 1:02:02
  Oh, no.
• 1:02:03
  Are you being attacked?
• 1:02:03
  Is there a hair?
• 1:02:04
  My wife's hairs notoriously... Hairess.
• 1:02:07
  How dare you?
• 1:02:08
  I'll find them on my... Good.
• 1:02:10
  And they're just, it's like... You want me to blow?
• 1:02:12
  Tickling me.
• 1:02:14
  We'll do a hair check for next episode.
• 1:02:15
  Thank you.
• 1:02:16
  By the way, if I've had an alfalfa sprout this whole time, I'm angry at all of you.
• 1:02:20
  Definitely not.
• 1:02:21
  That's happened.
• 1:02:21
  You don't.
• 1:02:22
  You're good.
• 1:02:22
  You're good.
• 1:02:22
  Keep saying what you're saying.
• 1:02:24
  With the alfalfa sprout.
• 1:02:25
  I...
• 1:02:27
  I agree that it's gotten out of hand.
• 1:02:30
  It's run amok.
• 1:02:31
  We got to put it in check.
• 1:02:33
  This is too much money for us.
• 1:02:34
  It's too small a number of people to have.
• 1:02:36
  How do we do it?
• 1:02:37
  And they've done it by means that they will continue to perpetuate, which is like you're saying hacking down anything that's in their way.
• 1:02:44
  Problematic needs to go.
• 1:02:46
  However, if you let go of being litigious for a minute, if you're a business owner, even a successful business owner like Van Leeuwen, and I don't understand the full situation, so if you work for Van Leeuwen, I'm sorry for whatever I'm about to say.
• 1:03:01
  Don't sue us.
• 1:03:01
  But what if you saw that somebody was ripping off your design?
• 1:03:05
  Sue her.
• 1:03:06
  So sue me.
• 1:03:08
  What if you...
• 1:03:10
  I used to say that.
• 1:03:11
  So sue me.
• 1:03:11
  So sue me.
• 1:03:13
  Don't say that anymore.
• 1:03:14
  You can't say it when you become an owner of an agency.
• 1:03:17
  That is funny.
• 1:03:18
  So sue me.
• 1:03:18
  I mean, we'd have to have something worth taking.
• 1:03:20
  Dude, that's hilarious.
• 1:03:21
  Is what it comes down to.
• 1:03:22
  It's true.
• 1:03:22
  Take me for all I'm worth.
• 1:03:24
  Joke's on you.
• 1:03:26
  But I imagine if you didn't get so...
• 1:03:31
  The word that came to mind was butthurt, but I'll use it.
• 1:03:34
  Imagine that you didn't get so upset about it and threatened by it, and instead you got curious and said to yourself, oh, interesting, I wonder why they're doing that.
• 1:03:43
  And then you look deeper, and maybe you find out that they're trying to capture this...
• 1:03:47
  Capture is such a weird word for consumers.
• 1:03:49
  So we've got this very strange vocabulary.
• 1:03:51
  Tell me about it.
• 1:03:52
  They're trying to capture this segment of your consumer makeup.
• 1:03:55
  And you feel, again, concerned that these people are going to leave and you're not going to have money to sustain this business.
• 1:04:01
  And, of course, we all tell ourselves a story about, no, I'm trying to create jobs and support my employees, which I heard.
• 1:04:08
  But some weird stuff happens through that means of justification.
• 1:04:12
  What if you got really curious and said, ah, maybe there's some need that that consumer set is not being met in my brand.
• 1:04:21
  Either one, am I willing to adapt and change to get to know them more deeply and maybe do something that brings them back?
• 1:04:29
  If they were loyal to me before, we've got a track record, maybe I could convince them.
• 1:04:33
  Whether that's a social campaign or a limited time offer or a new line of ice cream that's keto, wouldn't that have been fascinating if they came instead of saying, let me take this to court and sue the shit out of you and wreck your business?
• 1:04:50
  What if they'd said, yeah, let's innovate.
• 1:04:53
  Let me hire some ex-Rebel ice cream people and get my own formula going and make the formula better.
• 1:04:57
  And then I've still got the design that I was holding territory on to begin with.
• 1:05:01
  I had this color system first.
• 1:05:05
  I'm not saying- And then back authentically.
• 1:05:06
  Yeah.
• 1:05:07
  You don't have to become a keto ice cream just because you see that some of your users want to.
• 1:05:11
  But you need to acknowledge that people are going to behave the way that they want to behave and that we're not pawns to be pushed around sheeple.
• 1:05:18
  And by doing the legal move, you're kind of cheating.
• 1:05:22
  It's like you're saying, ref, did you see what they did?
• 1:05:24
  Referee.
• 1:05:26
  Meanwhile, we can't get market regulation to actually fix the big picture problems.
• 1:05:30
  What if they just said, oh, they look like us.
• 1:05:32
  Well, go try and see if you like it better.
• 1:05:34
  Yeah.
• 1:05:35
  And they're like, you don't like it better?
• 1:05:36
  You buy ours again.
• 1:05:36
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:37
  Like, they were threatened, obviously.
• 1:05:40
  They were afraid.
• 1:05:41
  And they shut it down.
• 1:05:42
  Yeah.
• 1:05:42
  And I know that there's a black and white way to look at this.
• 1:05:45
  And you just say, yeah, you can't look too much like the other person.
• 1:05:47
  You can't sound too much like that.
• 1:05:48
  But you two are both wearing denim shirts.
• 1:05:50
  Look at you.
• 1:05:50
  Gray pants.
• 1:05:51
  Sue me.
• 1:05:51
  Look at that.
• 1:05:52
  So sue me, Reggie.
• 1:05:53
  I'm going to, actually.
• 1:05:55
  I've already texted my lawyer.
• 1:05:57
  Paperwork's in progress, baby.
• 1:05:58
  Oh, my gosh.
• 1:05:59
  Sorry, man.
• 1:06:00
  I like that in the art world, too, right?
• 1:06:01
  There's lots of different genres and subject matters and mediums that all mimic one another, right?
• 1:06:07
  And they're very similar.
• 1:06:08
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:06:09
  Take the compliment is what I say.
• 1:06:11
  Yeah.
• 1:06:13
  And artists don't have the funds to go and sue someone.
• 1:06:16
  And I think that's why our community.
• 1:06:17
  So they have to just kind of be like, oh, that's awesome.
• 1:06:20
  How did you do that?
• 1:06:21
  I did it this way.
• 1:06:22
  And that's when you start to get into a craft process.
• 1:06:26
  And then you collaborate together and you promote one another.
• 1:06:28
  And you have a show together.
• 1:06:31
  Relationship.
• 1:06:32
  Ah, relationship.
• 1:06:34
  Brand, idol.
• 1:06:35
  Light bulb.
• 1:06:36
  Van Huyen.
• 1:06:37
  Wellen.
• 1:06:38
  Van Llewen.
• 1:06:39
  Van Llewen idol.
• 1:06:40
  Surface.
• 1:06:41
  Llewen.
• 1:06:41
  Artist.
• 1:06:42
  relationship.
• 1:06:43
  Yeah.
• 1:06:44
  Yeah.
• 1:06:44
  Like there is a different, I think.
• 1:06:46
  Spirit maybe.
• 1:06:47
  I think the art community is definitely more welcoming of people encroaching upon your style.
• 1:06:52
  Like you said, one, artists can't be litigious because they typically aren't like millionaires.
• 1:06:58
  And then two, um,
• 1:07:00
  It is kind of, like for instance, Chuck Close, one of my favorite realist painters.
• 1:07:04
  I've seen droves of other realist painters like that who used even probably the same style, how he used to take basically, he would grid out his canvas and he would transfer one block at a time from his
• 1:07:23
  It's a pretty typical.
• 1:07:24
  Yeah, and people do that, and they have really amazing results.
• 1:07:29
  But I can't imagine Chuck Close was ever like, I'm going to sue them, because they're doing the same thing I'm doing.
• 1:07:34
  Yeah, they kind of just have to keep doing it.
• 1:07:36
  I mean, you get ass out.
• 1:07:37
  They're like those.
• 1:07:38
  I inspired a generation of people to do really great art.
• 1:07:42
  But what it's become, though, is a speed game.
• 1:07:44
  Because Chuck Close came first, then everyone after is a copycat.
• 1:07:48
  Coldplay came first, so Keen is a copycat.
• 1:07:50
  Keen was a copycat.
• 1:07:52
  And so now we've created a market where everyone's like, I've got to get there first.
• 1:07:55
  And everyone's like banging each other, elbowing each other out of the way.
• 1:07:58
  That's what you're seeing with AI is someone has to get there first because then they are the ones that came up with it.
• 1:08:04
  Oh, okay.
• 1:08:04
  You were the one.
• 1:08:05
  So everyone else is a copycat.
• 1:08:06
  Is it just about getting props for having started a movement?
• 1:08:09
  You just, at first, they always know.
• 1:08:11
  They teach you this in company design.
• 1:08:14
  First...
• 1:08:15
  wins first is like such a crazy thing you ever go to like a social media post and somebody like has the first comment and the first comment is first i'm like i saw that recently what are they talking i've seen it for years
• 1:08:30
  It's seriously, that is a thing.
• 1:08:32
  Like, we're in such a competitive mindset that just being the first person to comment nothing on someone's post is like a thing.
• 1:08:39
  So now you're not even thinking.
• 1:08:40
  To celebrate.
• 1:08:41
  You're just trying to be first.
• 1:08:42
  And that's a whole different game you're playing.
• 1:08:44
  That's so weird.
• 1:08:45
  Than authenticity or whatever else we're at.
• 1:08:47
  Relationship.
• 1:08:48
  Like, you're not like, I got married first.
• 1:08:50
  I win.
• 1:08:50
  We live.
• 1:08:51
  Now you got to work with the living community.
• 1:08:53
  thing that you created.
• 1:08:53
  You say that, but then people throw these anniversary parties and they're like, we've been, we got very screwed.
• 1:08:57
  We did that in other, yeah.
• 1:08:59
  But we ask athletes to come in first.
• 1:09:01
  I know.
• 1:09:02
  There's like a pride in performance.
• 1:09:03
  That's what I'm saying.
• 1:09:03
  I think on a competitive landscape.
• 1:09:04
  We idolize athleticism in America.
• 1:09:06
  I think athletes should, that's an athletic, that's a competitive landscape, but I think there's other arenas that should not be competitive, or they shouldn't be competitive to that degree.
• 1:09:16
  But when there's reward,
• 1:09:18
  to be offered.
• 1:09:19
  Isn't that the same as an athlete, getting a reward for winning first?
• 1:09:22
  Perhaps.
• 1:09:23
  If you're first in the market and you get the market share, that's a reward for being first.
• 1:09:28
  But I think... We've incentivized the game.
• 1:09:31
  Yeah.
• 1:09:31
  But if you get there first and nobody gives a shit, you don't get any advantage.
• 1:09:35
  That's true.
• 1:09:36
  So I don't think it's about getting there first.
• 1:09:38
  I think it's about...
• 1:09:39
  finding a new angle that people want it.
• 1:09:42
  It's about celebration and pushing the human spirit to new heights and discovering ourselves and figuring out who we are in this big, crazy universe.
• 1:09:50
  And if we could think of it that way, you can see the competition for what it is.
• 1:09:55
  Are you saying that?
• 1:09:56
  A game.
• 1:09:56
  It's play.
• 1:09:57
  We're playing with ourselves.
• 1:09:59
  We're touching our business.
• 1:10:00
  We're touching our business.
• 1:10:01
  Touching our business.
• 1:10:02
  I do think there is something to be said about trying to come up with an idea that people can idolize because there's nothing else like it.
• 1:10:11
  They haven't seen it.
• 1:10:12
  Really, you haven't seen it yet.
• 1:10:13
  Yeah, you haven't seen it yet, so it feels new.
• 1:10:15
  And then it spirals because then the people that are seeing it for the first time want to be the ones to say, hey, I discovered this thing.
• 1:10:25
  I'm the first person to see this cool thing that these guys came up with or this new brand or this new, you know,
• 1:10:31
  deodorant or whatever it is you're like even from brandon deodorant first person to use this you know like oh what do you smell like oh yeah what do you smell like yeah i do i think we i think we're wired that way but i think as business owners we also are trying to come up and craft the original idea because we want it to make us successful isn't that the hardest way to do it i feel like the the
• 1:10:53
  Oh, totally.
• 1:10:54
  First mover advantage is also you have to educate everybody about what you're doing.
• 1:10:59
  And then you crack the door open and everybody floods in behind you.
• 1:11:02
  Yeah, there was this whole YouTube movement where they were teaching people you can own normal businesses like laundromats and other small car washes.
• 1:11:10
  And the lady made a whole career.
• 1:11:13
  She made a whole career out of teaching people how you can make a really successful life out of owning these normal, non-original businesses.
• 1:11:20
  Ideas like a laundromat.
• 1:11:22
  Right, like a laundromat or a car wash. And so I'm wondering if we've idolized being original.
• 1:11:30
  We could get 40 hearts laundromat and have 40 washers.
• 1:11:32
  Focus on the topic, Reggie.
• 1:11:34
  I'm sorry.
• 1:11:34
  I'm just saying.
• 1:11:35
  Because this comes into music, too.
• 1:11:37
  We've idolized the musician who can evoke an original emotion and a song, but we've lost what music used to be in culture.
• 1:11:47
  Music used to be a relational family coming together, singing around the piano or around the fire originally.
• 1:11:55
  And it was a cultural way of keeping stories and keeping the culture alive.
• 1:12:00
  And now we find people are like, I wrote this song and it uses this and does this and it's so original.
• 1:12:05
  Like that's our idolization of originality.
• 1:12:08
  Can I...
• 1:12:09
  Oh, yeah, because you're going to.
• 1:12:12
  You can't stop me on here.
• 1:12:13
  No, don't even ask.
• 1:12:14
  So sue me, but I think I worship the creator.
• 1:12:22
  Abstract that for a minute.
• 1:12:23
  When a lot of people hear that, they think, I worship the Christian God.
• 1:12:26
  Right.
• 1:12:27
  Ignore that part.
• 1:12:28
  I worship the creator.
• 1:12:31
  I am the creator.
• 1:12:34
  I create things.
• 1:12:35
  Right.
• 1:12:36
  And so you say to me, we've idolized originality.
• 1:12:40
  I can hear your point and it's well taken.
• 1:12:42
  I think there was a function for music in society and it does have to do with relationship and culture and history.
• 1:12:48
  And we've lost a lot of that and we ought to reclaim it.
• 1:12:51
  And I say reclaim because it was stolen from us, but that's for another podcast.
• 1:12:56
  I think that originality is an expression of the divine.
• 1:13:01
  I think, what brought you there?
• 1:13:04
  What a wild, chaotic multiverse of opportunity collided to create that thing that you just made.
• 1:13:13
  And so I think that is, to me, worth, I won't say idolizing, worth attention and love and care for.
• 1:13:22
  Now why are you doing it becomes the next question.
• 1:13:24
  But think about how your process suffers if all you worship is originality because babies come out and they copy us.
• 1:13:31
  That is how they grow.
• 1:13:32
  But a baby is original from day one.
• 1:13:36
  Totally.
• 1:13:36
  But they learn literally how to do things by copying other people's.
• 1:13:40
  When I was first writing music, I was struggling to write a song.
• 1:13:44
  And I was in the church and doing worship music, and I hated certain styles of worship music.
• 1:13:50
  Like, I just despise them.
• 1:13:51
  They're so cheesy.
• 1:13:52
  You know, I was a teenager, and I had all my notions.
• 1:13:54
  Jesus loves me, this I know.
• 1:13:57
  So literally, I remember the moment I gave up, and I said, fine, I'm going to write a cheesy Christian song.
• 1:14:04
  Ooh.
• 1:14:04
  And people loved it.
• 1:14:06
  It was called Creatures of Praise.
• 1:14:07
  Okay.
• 1:14:09
  It went over like nobody's business.
• 1:14:11
  And then I wrote another cheesy song, and then another cheesy song, and all of a sudden I started writing less cheesy songs.
• 1:14:18
  It's like I let myself be cheesy and be a copycat.
• 1:14:22
  And I begin to let myself out.
• 1:14:24
  You found your originality through copy.
• 1:14:25
  I had been worshiping the originality.
• 1:14:27
  I had been trying to write songs like this or that or Radiohead or Dave Matthews Band or all these things.
• 1:14:32
  And all of a sudden I was like, this is where I am.
• 1:14:34
  This is what these people want.
• 1:14:36
  And I just started making the thing I never wanted to be known for.
• 1:14:39
  It was the weirdest mind shift.
• 1:14:42
  And it led me to originality because now I can sing spontaneously and not even care about the song.
• 1:14:48
  So I'm in an assumption, abstraction of originality.
• 1:14:51
  Kind of a similar path.
• 1:14:52
  Yeah.
• 1:14:52
  Do you feel that, Pat?
• 1:14:53
  Yeah.
• 1:14:53
  And so I feel like when we idolize originality, we prevent the growth process.
• 1:14:58
  Because people are like so hard on themselves.
• 1:15:00
  I got to be original.
• 1:15:01
  Oh, they did that already.
• 1:15:01
  They already had that idea.
• 1:15:02
  And they start like cramping down so hard they can't breathe.
• 1:15:05
  And then they don't come into their originality.
• 1:15:07
  It's a growing into.
• 1:15:13
  So self-critical about the thing that you had access to in that moment.
• 1:15:16
  Yeah.
• 1:15:17
  That you, in many ways, by trying to be original versus what was around you, cut yourself off from it.
• 1:15:23
  Yeah.
• 1:15:23
  But I would say that's a function of like social dynamic and- Idolization.
• 1:15:27
  Self-hatred maybe.
• 1:15:28
  I think there's something else at play too.
• 1:15:30
  And I think it's a common path for people is when you actually copy other people, you start to, you're sort of honing your skill.
• 1:15:38
  Yeah, you're practicing, you're honing your skill, and then once you have a solid foundation of how to actually make a song, whether it's a cheesy song that you don't really like, that foundation allows you to then now explore your originality.
• 1:15:50
  Yeah, I mean case in point, Justin Bieber's new album.
• 1:15:52
  Yeah, totally.
• 1:15:53
  It's the second time I brought this up because I'm amazed by it.
• 1:15:54
  He made the most pop formulated songs for I don't know how many years, and all of a sudden he comes out with an album that's like so inspired by everything I love, but completely originally him.
• 1:16:05
  Yeah, it's not.
• 1:16:06
  It's the weirdest thing.
• 1:16:08
  So we have to allow ourselves to go down that path.
• 1:16:10
  And I like what you were saying about it.
• 1:16:12
  It was like I was afraid of people seeing me.
• 1:16:16
  So I was trying to be original.
• 1:16:17
  And it was almost as if it was an exterior.
• 1:16:21
  I looked original versus being myself, even if that felt like a copy to me.
• 1:16:26
  So there is a pressing question.
• 1:16:28
  Where can we find all those cheesy songs that you made?
• 1:16:32
  You know, they are probably in my mom's bootleg drawer.
• 1:16:37
  She was recording stuff all the time.
• 1:16:39
  My dad, too.
• 1:16:41
  Guys, this has been a wonderful conversation.
• 1:16:43
  It has been.
• 1:16:44
  Isn't that good?
• 1:16:45
  Yeah.
• 1:16:46
  I mean, we could probably talk forever.
• 1:16:48
  Lindsay, thanks for joining us.
• 1:16:50
  Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 1:16:51
  Absolutely.
• 1:16:52
  I want to give a shout out to Ricky and Will for keeping us tech solid.
• 1:16:57
  And for that phone alarm that went off.
• 1:16:59
  Yeah.
• 1:16:59
  Yeah.
• 1:17:00
  Oh, man, you're not supposed to call it out.
• 1:17:03
  Just kidding.
• 1:17:03
  This is all about showing the real.
• 1:17:06
  We got a rizm.
• 1:17:07
  Rizm?
• 1:17:08
  Razm?
• 1:17:08
  Rizm.
• 1:17:09
  What would the children say right now?
• 1:17:10
  Why are you going?
• 1:17:11
  Razm.
• 1:17:11
  I was saying we got to tease him because he's about to leave.
• 1:17:14
  Oh, razm.
• 1:17:15
  Right.
• 1:17:16
  Razm.
• 1:17:17
  We got a razm.
• 1:17:18
  We got a rizm might be a different thing.
• 1:17:20
  We only have Will for one more week.
• 1:17:23
  Is that true?
• 1:17:24
  One more week.
• 1:17:24
  One more week.
• 1:17:25
  Where are you going?
• 1:17:26
  We got to laugh so we don't cry.
• 1:17:27
  Just off to Charlotte.
• 1:17:28
  Oh, wow.
• 1:17:29
  Yep.
• 1:17:30
  Figuring better things, you know.
• 1:17:32
  I feel like we want to get Will over here and give him a hug.
• 1:17:34
  Or should we do that next week?
• 1:17:36
  No hug for you this week.
• 1:17:38
  No hugs.
• 1:17:39
  You're all hugs.
• 1:17:40
  You have to wait until next week.
• 1:17:42
  All right.
• 1:17:44
  Thank you for taking, you know, this is obviously we know this is a long show.
• 1:17:49
  So the fact that you've made it this far, the fact that you actually are here listening to us means a lot to us.
• 1:17:55
  And we'd also love for you to engage.
• 1:17:59
  So add some comments if you like it, if there's something, if you have thoughts about idolatry.
• 1:18:06
  Yeah.
• 1:18:06
  Hit us up in the comments.
• 1:18:08
  We'd love to engage with you.
• 1:18:10
  And until our next episode.
• 1:18:13
  Bye.
• 1:18:14
  Bye.
• 1:18:15
  Man, oh, man.
• 1:18:16
  That was fun.
• 1:18:17
  You pulled that word and I was like.
• 1:18:19
  Thanks for listening.
• 1:18:20
  This podcast was created and developed by our hosts, Reggie Tidwell, Tim Scroggs, and Mary Green.
• 1:18:28
  Special thanks to our guest today, Lindsay Gray.
• 1:18:31
  Produced by Mary Green.
• 1:18:33
  Live production and editing by me, Will Kennedy.
• 1:18:37
  Set design by Megan Scroggs.
• 1:18:39
  Special thanks again to Dylan Garcia.
• 1:18:43
  Today's episode is presented lovingly by 40 Hearts, creators of enduring value.