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How To Let Go And Find Joy In Later Life with Elaine Yarbrough & Bob Benson · The Elsa Kurt Show

0:00
SPEAKER_03: We're talking about something every one of us eventually has to navigate, change.
0:04
SPEAKER_03: The end of one season, the uncertainty before the next one begins, and how we make sure we're still really living rather than simply getting older.
0:12
SPEAKER_03: Our guests are Dr.
0:13
SPEAKER_03: Elaine Yarbrough and Dr.
0:15
SPEAKER_03: Bob Benson, authors of Roadmap for a Brilliant Life via Haiku, Pros and Photography.
0:22
SPEAKER_03: Elaine spent decades as a professor and international consultant focused on communication, personal growth, and human well-being.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: Bob's career spanned technology, management, and academia, while photography became a lifelong passion and eventually his artistic focus.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: Together, they've created a special book combining Elaine's haiku and prose with Bob's photography to explore aging, loss, purpose, transition, and what it means to continue living a meaningful life.
0:50
SPEAKER_03: Let's welcome Elaine and Bob.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, hello, Elaine and Bob.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Thank you both so much for joining me today.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: Great.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: So since we have two of you here today, I will kind of pose the questions to both of you.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: And then if one of you wants to pass, you can pass it right over to the other one.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to let you be the boss of that.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: But I think this one is definitely for both of you.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: So we'll do uh we'll do ladies first and start with Elaine on this one.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: Um I want to start with the title because a brilliant life, which I I love the word brilliant, and I love what I feel when I hear the word.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Um and of course, so of course it sounds wonderful, but I sucks I suspect that you mean something deeper and um more meaningful than just having a happy life.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: So if you wouldn't mind, tell me a little bit about what that really means to you.
1:37
SPEAKER_06: Well, Bob and I began talking about this, and I've been writing um haiku for years, but that wasn't my focus.
1:43
SPEAKER_06: It's like photography wasn't his focus, but it was always in the background.
1:47
SPEAKER_06: And as we moved into chapters three and four of life, um uh, well, we all become aware of how much the culture does not value those stages, and then people incorporate those cultural messages and they kind of disappear.
2:04
SPEAKER_06: Uh, and the culture reflects that.
2:07
SPEAKER_06: And so I've been writing especially about those transitions in life stages for a long time.
2:13
SPEAKER_06: Well, since I entered them.
2:15
SPEAKER_06: And uh, man, we have got to have things that reflect something different.
2:20
SPEAKER_06: You know, what what is that wisdom, that clarity, those gifts, uh, the brilliance of uh of chapters three and four of life.
2:29
SPEAKER_06: And really that's that's how it came about.
2:31
SPEAKER_06: And uh I saw I'd written all this, and I thought, I'd like to have this in print.
2:37
SPEAKER_06: So I called Bob and as a photographer and friend, and I said, uh, would you put pictures together uh with these uh with this writing?
2:45
SPEAKER_06: And he said, No.
2:47
SPEAKER_06: And I said, Why not?
2:48
SPEAKER_06: And he said, because I have 500,000 pictures that we can choose from, and I said, Okay.
2:54
SPEAKER_06: And so we had a a great time matching the feeling of the of the writing with the pictures, and just it's fabulous.
3:04
SPEAKER_06: Right, yeah.
3:06
SPEAKER_06: Take it, Bob.
3:07
SPEAKER_06: Take it, Bob.
3:09
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, the what I've learned uh by working with uh uh Elaine that life's journey uh is largely what you make of it.
3:24
SPEAKER_04: In other words, it's not something that is defined by others, it's what you define as being the outcomes you're looking for and the ways you want to get there.
3:36
SPEAKER_04: And what I learned out of the book, right preparing for the book, is that those things that you do come in stages when you're young, when you're middle, when you're old, when you're very old.
3:49
SPEAKER_04: I have some experience with that.
3:51
SPEAKER_04: The uh the uh uh uh each time there are things you can do and be aware of that will enhance your capability of achieving the joy in your life.
4:04
SPEAKER_04: And that's what a brilliant life is about is achieving the joy in your life, whatever that may be, and it's gonna be different as you evolve, as you gain uh age and wisdom.
4:17
SPEAKER_04: It's good, it just is gonna get better and different, and different, yeah.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so true.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I mean, I guess it's such an obvious statement, but don't you think that um our definition of a good life, a brilliant life, changes so much as we get older, right?
4:37
SPEAKER_01: The things that we value and believe are fulfilling in our life are so different than what we thought in our 20s.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: My gosh, even in our 30s, right?
4:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:50
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
4:50
SPEAKER_06: Well, and so the and it's appropriate.
4:54
SPEAKER_06: Uh and the culture reflects, you know, you're supposed to grow up, supposed to get an education, supposed to be a profession.
5:00
SPEAKER_06: And of course, in this culture, we uh we so value work that everything else fades.
5:06
SPEAKER_06: And that's one of the reasons people have a hard time in the later chapters, because they're so self-identified with work.
5:12
SPEAKER_06: And it's very hard to let go of that identity.
5:15
SPEAKER_06: And at this stage, and I was just down uh in Galveston, Texas, with uh about 30 family members, and they're uh a gob of little kids, and they're all about the same age, and they get the beach in the water, and I mean I had the best time watching these little goobers run everywhere and how they managed.
5:35
SPEAKER_06: I I have a granddaughter who's five, and I thought, you know, in my 40s, I wouldn't have been interested in this.
5:41
SPEAKER_06: I'd have been all somewhere on my computer, and and I write and I came home and started writing haikus about that is that simple joy of watching the ah, the beauty.
5:52
SPEAKER_06: Yes, yeah, the joy and those two things are what changes you.
5:58
SPEAKER_04: And the point of the book is to highlight that progression, progression through the some stages, and within each stage, progression from where you are now to where you want to go, and then where you want to go is correct, is going to be different in each stage, but that doesn't diminish the importance of trying, striving to reach those endpoints.
6:26
SPEAKER_04: Um that's really what the book tries to do is to, well, no, it doesn't try to do, it does.
6:32
SPEAKER_04: It sets out uh the connection between goals that you wish to obtain, the joy you wish to get, and all of the things that you can do to get there.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, you know, as we get older, um, there's so many good things, and and really everything that you've just said are the good things.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: You're you're pointing out all of the good things that that growth and that perspective and that appreciation, that deeper appreciation that you're afforded to have by aging, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_01: And but I I think there are so many people, and I've met people like this, that as they age, um, they're, you know, I don't I don't want to say bitterness, but just um a deeper sadness instead of uh a joyfulness starts to come because they're looking at, you know, that the end of the road is is coming closer uh rather than focusing on the right now, the present, and the uh just the richness of life experience that you've been we've been afforded, right?
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Um so I love that I love that you, I feel like I I'm making an assumption.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you wrote this book with maybe a little bit of those people in mind that, you know, listen, you if you this is your perspective, here's a great perspective shift for you.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, you can see so much beauty, right?
7:52
SPEAKER_04: Well, let me let me kind of jump in here.
7:54
SPEAKER_04: That the core idea of the book is you get to choose that.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: You get to choose where you want to go and how you're gonna get there.
8:04
SPEAKER_04: And making those choices is really crucial to achieving the joy at the end of each stage, at the during the development of each stage.
8:14
SPEAKER_04: And that's what the book is about is how do you set those goals and how do you organize to get there.
8:22
SPEAKER_06: I want to add about that because you know that sounds good intellectually, but what happens emotionally is much harder.
8:29
SPEAKER_06: Um and that's the reason we put in the book not only the content of what you might expect for with joy and purpose, but the transition stages that you go through.
8:40
SPEAKER_06: And the first, of course, is loss and letting go.
8:42
SPEAKER_06: And I I think uh especially later chapter three, chapter four, the main activity is letting go and letting go of old identities, of actually stuff, you know, uh about people cleaning out, and and it's sometimes very, very hard because that feels like their life.
9:01
SPEAKER_06: And then if in our culture, we don't really love letting go, uh really like the neutral zone, which is wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, um, and that that feeling of I don't I don't know what I want.
9:14
SPEAKER_06: You know, Bob's talking about setting goals.
9:16
SPEAKER_06: Well, you know, in this transition time with both um at every level of life, uh, you don't know what you want.
9:23
SPEAKER_06: And so part of that wandering around is doing a very different process rather than sitting down and making an individual strategic plan, you just start noticing what brings you joy.
9:35
SPEAKER_06: Uh and if you're so gripped by a certain age or identity, you can't even notice because you're always looking in the rearview mirror.
9:44
SPEAKER_06: So, you know, what simple things that bring you joy and then big things.
9:48
SPEAKER_06: And then how when you look at that, then how do you do a new beginning?
9:54
SPEAKER_06: And and Bob's talking about the new beginnings, you know, the goals, the processes, but there are those previous steps uh that are that we really don't honor uh here.
10:04
SPEAKER_06: So uh how to let go, man.
10:07
SPEAKER_06: That's hard.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: First, absolutely.
10:12
SPEAKER_04: Two clarifying points.
10:13
SPEAKER_04: When Elaine uses the word chapter three, chapter four, she's not talking about the book, she's talking about the life chapters.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, that was a great clarification.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Um go ahead.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: No, I I was I was gonna ask you, Elaine, since you kind of started the the ball rolling with with the book, um, what made you decide that like now's the time?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you've had this beautiful collection of of haikus and works that you've done.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: What was it that made you say, right now, this is the time, I'm ready to do this?
10:45
SPEAKER_06: My own stage.
10:47
SPEAKER_06: So um there have been, you know, uh it's all always big turning points in life.
10:52
SPEAKER_06: Uh but with age, I was writing for me.
10:57
SPEAKER_06: I was going, what am I noticing?
10:59
SPEAKER_06: What what am I hanging on to?
11:02
SPEAKER_06: Uh, oh, there's that little bit of joy.
11:04
SPEAKER_06: Well, what's my purpose now?
11:06
SPEAKER_06: Um, so it it it really became my life story in a different form.
11:13
SPEAKER_06: Um, I've written professional books and you know, conflict management and all this stuff, but uh this is uh a personal story.
11:21
SPEAKER_06: And when Bob started reading, he said, Yeah, me too.
11:25
SPEAKER_06: And so it was uh very very uh self-serving.
11:30
SPEAKER_06: And then of course I people my age and a little younger, a little older, uh, that are struggling with all this.
11:37
SPEAKER_06: Uh it was for them too.
11:38
SPEAKER_06: And of course, as I talked to my my role models, it's like, oh, that's how you did that.
11:43
SPEAKER_06: Um one of my role models, uh, she died last year, she was 98.
11:48
SPEAKER_06: And I mean, her her just her brilliance and her interest.
11:53
SPEAKER_06: Uh I would she lived in Arizona and I'd go visit her all the time, and I would just sit at the kitchen table with her, and I said, How do you do this?
12:01
SPEAKER_06: She said, What?
12:02
SPEAKER_06: I said, I don't know, so joyful in learning.
12:05
SPEAKER_06: She said, Well, that's it.
12:07
SPEAKER_06: And before I'd get up in the morning, she always got up at 4 30.
12:10
SPEAKER_06: Uh, before I'd get up in the morning, she'd have the topics all laid out.
12:14
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
12:15
SPEAKER_06: How much do you think a soprano, uh opera soprano makes?
12:19
SPEAKER_06: I said, I don't know.
12:21
SPEAKER_06: And I have to get company.
12:23
SPEAKER_06: Um, just having these rich role models who have made those transitions and uh their values have been constant, but the form is, of course, you know, you can't do what you used to do.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
12:37
SPEAKER_04: So one of the real virtues of getting the two of us together to do this kind of project is we come at it from two very hugely different perspectives.
12:53
SPEAKER_04: I was an engineer, a computer guy, went to law school.
12:58
SPEAKER_04: I mean, all of those things that are rigid and focused and unwilling to accept the idea that there is joy that is in what can be in one's life.
13:10
SPEAKER_04: And this book releases that sense of joy.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:15
SPEAKER_04: That's just crucial.
13:16
SPEAKER_04: It sure happened for me.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: That's so beautiful and and so wonderful.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: And I and I just know that there's so many people that can relate so well to everything that you're saying and that are so they go, yeah, how?
13:26
SPEAKER_01: How do I do this?
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, you you you have the how, you're sharing the how.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: And uh there's uh there's also a website, correct?
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: So um tell me a little bit about that.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: It's it says here that um the website describes life as stages involving endings, a kind of uncertain middle, and then eventually new beginnings.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, so as part of that question, let me ask what what because this is a lot of foresight that you had.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: So not only a book, but now you you also have this website.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: So this is such a rounded uh offering that you have.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit about that process.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Bob, you can go ahead.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm you're not gonna go ahead.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
14:09
SPEAKER_06: I'm sorry, uh tell me uh clarify the question.
14:13
SPEAKER_06: I don't I didn't understand the question.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just uh just in regards to the website, just the development of that, the thought process of creating that website and and um the things that are in it on it.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, on it.
14:25
SPEAKER_06: Well, we we have been working with uh a really good marketer, and uh when we sent her our things, uh uh they really they got the essence of what we were doing and and put that together.
14:36
SPEAKER_06: Uh so they took our words, they're you know, good marketing words.
14:39
SPEAKER_06: Um so that that's how that came about.
14:41
SPEAKER_06: If if if I'd had to do it, it never happened because I don't know about those things.
14:46
SPEAKER_06: But uh Emma's been very lovely to work with because they really get uh the richness of this work.
14:53
SPEAKER_06: And so that's that's really how that came about.
14:55
SPEAKER_06: Would you say that, Bob?
14:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think I think we have to never forget that there are several uh continuous themes throughout the book.
15:04
SPEAKER_04: One is aging, one is accountability or finding accountancy in your life, uh, one is joy.
15:12
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: These are these are themes, and chime in on that.
15:16
SPEAKER_04: I may missed a couple or uh Elaine, but these are themes that everybody needs to understand as we go down these roads.
15:26
SPEAKER_04: And we're gonna go down these roads.
15:28
SPEAKER_04: That's yeah.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and look at that.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: You go.
15:35
SPEAKER_06: One of the things about letting go, uh uh the flip side of that is when people don't, and a lot of that is psychological trauma past.
15:45
SPEAKER_06: Um so it's not not just you know the heady things of purpose and finding joy.
15:51
SPEAKER_06: It's like you can't if you don't know what's in you.
15:55
SPEAKER_06: And so the decisions you make currently, if they come from that past stuff that you haven't let go of, you can't do this process.
16:03
SPEAKER_06: So just like everything, leadership, healthy organizations, healthy people, uh, you really have to be committed to self-awareness.
16:12
SPEAKER_06: And what stuff still, what patterns, what tapes still run that keep you from moving on?
16:18
SPEAKER_06: Um, you know, and it's hard work sometimes.
16:21
SPEAKER_06: Sometimes it's just easy going, oh geez, you know, why do I keep doing that?
16:25
SPEAKER_06: Um but that that theme runs through this is what what are you holding on to emotionally that prevents you from doing this process, which seems, you know, kind of simple intellectually, but it's not emotionally.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's funny if someone were to take just a quick glance um at the I don't know, the the beginning of this, uh, you know, maybe their assumption would be, oh, she's just gonna talk to them about this pretty book with pretty pictures and nice haikus, and that's all it is.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: And my goodness, it's so, so much more.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's it's in the title roadmap, it's in the title.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, you you touch on so many things, um, themes that are so meaningful to me now in my life and have been for a long time, purpose and and um uh accountability and and all of those things are are just so critically uh joy, of course, is is my absolute favorite.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, but all of those things, if you have these ingredients, my goodness, you know, I'm not saying that nobody is saying nobody here is saying that life is gonna be perfect.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, but my goodness, it's gonna be so much better than what you could even imagine that it would be, right?
17:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yes, that's exactly right.
17:37
SPEAKER_04: That is an example, right?
17:38
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and remember, this is not just about joy is the the end state or in the process.
17:47
SPEAKER_06: But remember, um, along with that goes a lot of suffering.
17:51
SPEAKER_06: And uh quite frankly, I don't trust people who haven't suffered.
17:55
SPEAKER_06: Um, you know, the so so can you walk through that?
18:00
SPEAKER_06: Um and then as you go, you learn and transform, and then that energy helps you shift.
18:07
SPEAKER_06: But some people uh try to prevent that, and that's not very attractive as you get older.
18:13
SPEAKER_04: I don't want to overlook one aspect of the book, and that is the role of beauty in all of this.
18:20
SPEAKER_04: That's uh that's large largely what we wanted to accomplish with the images that are in the book.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: To look at each thread that's being described.
18:31
SPEAKER_04: Uh, there are 120 images, and uh each one is intended with beauty to illustrate, to show, to carry out the theme that is being described.
18:43
SPEAKER_04: And to be able to do that was just a wonderful blessing.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Bob, you fascinate me because you you're someone who, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, would maybe describe himself as somebody with like a logical analytical mind, and yet you have this tremendous eye for for beauty and for capturing beauty.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: That's that's quite a gift to be able to marry both of those uh uh minds, basically.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: So I'm envious.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm envious.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't have the analytical.
19:14
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, as my wife would say from time to time, oh Bob.
19:18
SPEAKER_04: And it has and it has to do with the conflicts between the logical and the beauty and you get a little of that.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: But that's okay, that's part of the process.
19:28
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
19:29
SPEAKER_06: Well, the part of the work is discovering more identities.
19:33
SPEAKER_06: You know, uh if someone said, you know, 20 years ago, well, you know, you're gonna move toward uh poetry, it's like, what?
19:41
SPEAKER_06: No, no, I'm a consultant worldwide.
19:45
SPEAKER_06: And then as that started emerging, I thought, well, maybe maybe I maybe I can do this.
19:49
SPEAKER_06: So a part of it is gaining identities as well as letting go.
19:54
SPEAKER_06: And you're right about Bob, because when we first started this, he said, How did you choose these topics?
19:59
SPEAKER_06: He said, What do you mean?
20:00
SPEAKER_06: How did I choose these topics?
20:01
SPEAKER_06: How do you choose the topic?
20:02
SPEAKER_06: And he kept for three days he kept asking, I said, I don't even know what you're talking about.
20:06
SPEAKER_06: Right.
20:06
SPEAKER_06: And he said, Well, act like I'm an engineer and try to explain.
20:12
SPEAKER_06: Oh, I get that.
20:13
SPEAKER_06: And so then I started talking about letting go and neutral zones and new beginnings.
20:16
SPEAKER_06: He said, Oh, but I didn't even I said, doesn't everybody know this?
20:21
SPEAKER_06: And he said, No.
20:23
SPEAKER_06: And that was a big big surprise to me.
20:25
SPEAKER_06: I thought everybody knew this.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh Aileen, tell me, tell me why haikus.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Like what was it that drew you to that?
20:34
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
20:34
SPEAKER_06: Well, I I for years I've gone on a retreat every January, and um one of the leaders uh was down in Costa Rica, she started talking about this form.
20:45
SPEAKER_06: And I thought, oh, okay.
20:46
SPEAKER_06: So we practiced and I thought, oh my goodness, if you can condense a feeling, an image, an attention to you know, five syllables, seven syllables, five syllables.
20:59
SPEAKER_06: You get you get the essence of the of the idea, the feeling, and it goes in quicker.
21:05
SPEAKER_06: And so it also allows you to condense rather than blah blah blah blah blah.
21:12
SPEAKER_06: It's like and that and that laser focus helps, I think, well, certainly me, uh it helps the the uh feeling, the message go in quicker.
21:22
SPEAKER_06: And um, there's this wonderful new book called Art is the Cure, and talking about all the research of what happens to people who put themselves around art, and art is both verbal as well as uh pictori.
21:35
SPEAKER_06: And I thought, oh, that's what this is.
21:38
SPEAKER_06: It's a form that lets things go in without making you feel bad.
21:45
SPEAKER_06: And so it's that sharp attention, and as we get older, the if people will allow this, because we lose energy on the outside, what it lets us do is focus.
21:57
SPEAKER_06: It's like, no, I don't want to be around that person anymore.
22:00
SPEAKER_06: No, I don't, I don't, I don't like that doing that anymore.
22:03
SPEAKER_06: And so it brings it in, and that's what a haiku does.
22:06
SPEAKER_06: It says, oh, this is it.
22:08
SPEAKER_06: And if you put then you put Bob's beautiful pictures and it just bypasses that conscious chatter and uh goes into your heart and it says, Oh, maybe that's it.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: So that's why I love that because I I feel like you just described the I you just described haiku in a way that probably just made so many viewers and listeners go, oh, I think I need to try that.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking, oh, I think I need to try that.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: I think I need to sit down and and and give that a try.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I I I love the way you just explained that.
22:43
SPEAKER_04: Well, when we started, uh Elaine started talking about how our culture uh doesn't allow us to do a lot of these things.
22:50
SPEAKER_04: And one way is our culture loves words.
22:53
SPEAKER_04: And so things get to be very long, very complicated.
22:57
SPEAKER_04: And the one thing the haiku does is it forces the thinking process to something that is specific pointed, gets there quick.
23:07
SPEAKER_04: And it really helps.
23:08
SPEAKER_04: It really does help.
23:10
SPEAKER_04: And even me, uh failed lawyer, found that to be very helpful.
23:17
SPEAKER_07: It doesn't have to be per se, you know, it's they just want to, yeah.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I think everybody, and it's a generalization, of course.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, everybody loves talking about the beginning, new beginnings, because they're fun and they're beautiful and they're exciting and they're wonderful.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And people will talk about the end because or the the imminent end because it's thought-provoking and it's you know something we all inevitably face.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: Um talk to talk to me a little bit about the middle, because I I think people get so lost in the middle.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Um What are your thoughts on that?
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Either one, whoever wants to start, whoever talks first.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, uh yeah, well, we don't like it.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I know.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Talk about an open-ended question, right?
24:05
SPEAKER_06: Well, it's just, you know, because you you don't you don't even know what to do in the morning.
24:08
SPEAKER_06: It's like, well, I used to follow this routine and I used to hang out with these people, and I I used to like that kind of work, and I don't.
24:16
SPEAKER_06: So if I don't like that, then you you almost feel like you're disappearing.
24:21
SPEAKER_06: And I remember when I left the university, um, and um when you uh especially in Europe, when you say I'm a professor, it's very high status.
24:30
SPEAKER_06: And so we were about to go on another trip, and I thought, what am I gonna say I am?
24:36
SPEAKER_06: I think I'll just say I'm a teacher, uh something, because you don't even know who you are.
24:42
SPEAKER_06: And so part of the method, uh and that's why mindfulness and meditation is so up, especially for Americans, because we can't seem to sit still, uh, it is that meditation process of you notice and let go, you notice and let go.
24:58
SPEAKER_06: And if you can, in that neutral zone, though, you know, the wandering in the wilderness, if you can also do uh practices like meditation, like noticing, like writing haiku, then then new things come in.
25:12
SPEAKER_06: Um and it also helps to have role models that have done this, uh, because you say, oh, that came out okay.
25:18
SPEAKER_06: Um sometimes the neutral zone can be years.
25:22
SPEAKER_06: Um and to go on retreat, to uh talk to people who know something about it, whether it's uh uh psychological help or role models, uh it just helps.
25:33
SPEAKER_06: But yeah, it's very disconcerting, especially for Americans.
25:37
SPEAKER_04: But one of the one of the real values of the book is that it teaches that while the middle zone, while the uh middle stages can be tough, that's okay.
25:51
SPEAKER_04: Okay, it's what everybody goes through.
25:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's universal, right?
25:56
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
25:56
SPEAKER_04: And so rather than saying, oh no, no, no, no, not me, I'm not gonna do that.
26:01
SPEAKER_04: What we say in the book, and through experience, and I must say, a lot of the book is about Elaine's experience both as a consultant and as a person.
26:10
SPEAKER_04: Um through through that process, you realize that by owning what you're doing, and by not saying, No, no, I'm not gonna do that.
26:21
SPEAKER_04: No, you are gonna do that.
26:22
SPEAKER_07: You're gonna do it.
26:26
SPEAKER_04: You gotta think about it, you gotta deal with it, but there is joy in the process, and you can get there straightforward.
26:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, sometimes maybe not so.
26:41
SPEAKER_04: But it's it's there.
26:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and the book, pretty pretty short book.
26:46
SPEAKER_04: This is not a 500-page book, right?
26:48
SPEAKER_04: It is all this out in about 100 and 130 pages, I think.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: That's so impressive.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: And in today's world, we want uh um information fast and quick and to the point like right there, so well, well met, because like you said, there's there's so much.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: There's so much that you could say that it could be a 500-page book easily, right?
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Easily.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh, with you know, volumes three through 75 after.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's that's quite a gift, in my opinion, that you're able to to take all of that and say, how can I say this, you know, in a way that to me, here's so here's my my feeling when I I get from everything you're saying.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: It's like a little bit of tough love, a little bit of hand holding, a whole lot of encouragement and support and actual guidance and actual useful tools um to help you just navigate.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And and I right, and that's where we're always struggling.
27:44
SPEAKER_04: Yep, and navigate both with a sense of purpose and with a uh a sense of positiveness.
27:51
SPEAKER_04: These are not negative things, these are positive things.
27:54
SPEAKER_04: And we're gonna get there, and here's how to do it.
27:57
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I love that.
27:58
SPEAKER_06: I just keep thinking about uh uh Dolly Parton's death hit me hard.
28:02
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, um and and you know, watching uh old reels and stuff, I thought, you know what?
28:06
SPEAKER_06: If you if you you're going for who you are and you like who you are, you simply can't get triggered.
28:13
SPEAKER_06: Right.
28:14
SPEAKER_06: People would try to trigger her with, you know, well, you look cheap.
28:17
SPEAKER_06: Well, she you know, it takes a lot of money to look this cheap.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: I have so many dolly quotes that run through my head, right?
28:23
SPEAKER_06: Oh and I thought, well, you know, if you're going along in life and you haven't decided, or you know, well, of course your your identity changes, but this is who I am, I like who I am, and I'm old.
28:34
SPEAKER_06: I mean, there's you know, uh I'm I'm a member of a women's group, and we we are practicing saying, I am old.
28:41
SPEAKER_06: And when you say that, and people say, Well God, she's old.
28:47
SPEAKER_06: Pretty biased.
28:48
SPEAKER_06: So a lot of that is the acceptance of these transitions, and uh, you know, you know, Gloria Stein.
28:54
SPEAKER_06: I mean, we're le losing such amazing people, and they were the same.
28:58
SPEAKER_06: It's like they could not be trapped because they knew and they liked themselves and they shifted as they changed.
29:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but so we just we just hope that we help that process.
29:10
SPEAKER_04: Yes, I'm sorry.
29:14
SPEAKER_06: I just think about you know, if when you're around people who haven't shifted and who are trying to hang on to 40 when they're 70, right?
29:22
SPEAKER_06: I'm gonna say this again, it's not attractive.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: No, it's just not.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: We see it all the time.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one glance around, you can you can see it, you can spot it, and you just you just know.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: And and uh, you know, if you're a kind, compassionate person, you feel bad for them because you're just like, geez, it doesn't have to be that way.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to hang on to, you know, just be in in in in the space that you're in in your life, and it's you know, it's not nearly as bad as as you imagine it to be.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so listen, so everybody's gonna yell at me if I don't ask you two how you two know each other, how this whole thing came together.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: So give us a little bit of background on on this uh this union, this partnership.
30:01
SPEAKER_06: I'm gonna start because I was responsible.
30:04
SPEAKER_06: Uh one of my best friend Noreen, her uh Bob's wife, uh we both went to the University of Kansas, and so uh through our life processes, through you know, help step out first marriages and so forth, uh, she was dating Bob, and they came to my 50th birthday party in England, and so all the women friends we were gonna vote on Bob.
30:24
SPEAKER_06: Uh was he worthy of her of the marriage, because they hadn't married yet.
30:28
SPEAKER_06: And so all the women got together and we said yes, we we vote yes.
30:31
SPEAKER_06: Oh and so uh we we told Naureen, we said, uh okay, we vote yes, but Bob kept asking her to get married, and she she kept saying, I'm not ready, not ready.
30:41
SPEAKER_06: So um during that trip, they got engaged.
30:45
SPEAKER_06: Oh so uh I told Bob he he needs to be forever grateful to me because I got them married.
30:52
SPEAKER_06: And so then, you know, friends, yep, beget friends, and uh we're all like family.
30:57
SPEAKER_06: So that was in night uh that was in 1997 that I that that party was that I met you.
31:04
SPEAKER_06: So we got thumbs up.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Got the thumbs up.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: I th I think we're I think they're gonna let you stick around for a little while, it sounds like no kidding.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so wonderful.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: So before we close out, uh I want to ask you both respectively, you know, I I always want to make sure that I I ask the questions that you want to tell, to talk about um the things.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: So if there's something that I miss that you really want to say to our audience, um, please take this opportunity and and and do it.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: We're good.
31:45
SPEAKER_06: I always keep thinking at this stage, um you know, people say it all the time is life is short.
31:52
SPEAKER_06: But when you get to a certain age, it really is.
31:55
SPEAKER_06: And you know, what just the amount of time and energy we spend uh messing around uh with trying to hold on, um it's painful.
32:05
SPEAKER_06: And at the end of life, uh everybody asks the same five questions.
32:10
SPEAKER_06: And you know, we if we start asking them now, uh then at the end of life we go, yep, already answered that.
32:16
SPEAKER_06: Goodbye.
32:17
SPEAKER_06: Uh so I'm good, peace out.
32:22
SPEAKER_06: Over and out.
32:23
SPEAKER_06: See you later.
32:24
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_06: But it you know, it just comes down to such basic, you know.
32:28
SPEAKER_06: Uh, are your relationships good?
32:30
SPEAKER_06: Have you do you have joy?
32:31
SPEAKER_06: Have you done have you given your gifts to the world?
32:34
SPEAKER_06: Um, and and it doesn't have to be anything grandiose.
32:38
SPEAKER_06: You know, do people around you say my life is better?
32:41
SPEAKER_06: So yeah.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
32:47
SPEAKER_04: So I forgot what that question was.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh I just wanted you to tell me how great I am.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And no, I'm kidding.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm absolutely kidding.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, uh, no, if you just if you had anything that you just wanted our audience to to know, just uh anything to impart.
33:04
SPEAKER_04: Well, again, I come back to the idea, really two ideas.
33:09
SPEAKER_04: One is that the linkage of beauty and concept.
33:13
SPEAKER_04: Uh that that is central to the presentation in the book.
33:18
SPEAKER_04: And then the second idea is that this is short, you know, like this is not the 500-page book.
33:24
SPEAKER_04: Right.
33:24
SPEAKER_04: And it is not it is how based on experience.
33:29
SPEAKER_04: This is not made-up uh theory, this is not uh intellectual dreaming.
33:34
SPEAKER_04: No, this is the way things are and the way things you can you can go forward.
33:39
SPEAKER_04: So those are the two basic themes that I would hope that come out of this this interview.
33:45
SPEAKER_04: Uh uh linking beauty with concept and the idea of that this is something that is not hard, but something that's straightforward and something to everybody would be benefited by, oh, that terrible word, benefit by the uh the experience of uh of thinking about it this way.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that it's so wonderful.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I think you both did such a beautiful job conveying um what's inside the book, uh the messaging, and and really, you know, my favorite part about it, um, the the hearts behind it, the the intention, um, I I think you shared that so beautifully.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: So uh I thank you.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: I got so much out of this.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh it just, it just everything just resonates so much with me as I move through these later stages of my life.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: And and I know uh so many of our audience members are are gonna find uh a lot of resonance in this.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: So I thank you both very, very much.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for the too.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Loved it.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely wonderful.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: And uh to our viewers and listeners, the links for the book and the website will be in our show notes.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: So you'll be able to click right on them and purchase and go check out the website and uh and get started on this next chapter, guys.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Thank you again.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: And I look forward to talking to you another time and to reading your book, of course.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: So thank you again.
35:06
SPEAKER_05: Okay, thank you very much.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: You've got a story worth sharing.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Now it's time to tell it well.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: Whether you're an author, entrepreneur, influencer, or podcast guest, stepping in front of the camera or microphone can feel overwhelming.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: On the other side of the mic is your practical, encouraging guide to becoming a confident, authentic, and engaging interviewee.
35:25
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35:28
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35:33
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