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Delivering a £3bn water infrastructure resilience programme · Project Podcast

0:15
Welcome to the APM Podcast. I'm your host Emma DeVito.
0:18
I'm the editor of APM's Core 2 Journal project.
0:20
The question I'd like to put to our guest today is what's it
0:24
like to get a once in a generation critical
0:27
infrastructure programme off the ground?
0:29
What's it like to work on a major project in an area water
0:33
supply that is garnering so much public and media attention?
0:37
Here to give me the fly in the wall view is John McNeil, Head
0:41
of Programme Delivery at United Utilities, who's helping to lead
0:44
the £3 billion horse water aqueduct resilience programme in
0:48
Northwest England. Welcome, John.
0:50
Thanks for joining me. Morning, Emma.
0:53
Thanks for having me. Well, it's a pleasure.
0:57
Let's begin with the basics when you tell me a bit about the
0:59
project and its scope, and perhaps what's making it
1:03
particularly unique. Absolutely.
1:07
So the Horse Horse Water Aqueduct Resilience Programme or
1:10
HARP as we as we fondly know it as it's been a project that's
1:15
been running for about 7 years now and the project is all about
1:19
addressing a very immediate and real resilience need.
1:24
So the the horsewater reservoir as shown behind me on the on the
1:29
photograph was built just you're.
1:31
Not actually there. I'm not actually there.
1:33
No, I'm not on site today. I'd love to be in that lovely
1:36
weather. So the reservoir was built in
1:39
the early sort of 1900s. And what connects the reservoir
1:43
to the main conurbations of the northwest being sort of
1:46
Manchester, is the horsewater aqueduct.
1:49
And this aqueduct was built between 1930s and 1950s to allow
1:53
the passage of water to effectively sustain the
1:56
industrial growth around Manchester and the Manchester
1:58
area. So a really, really important
2:01
aqueduct, an asset. It runs for 110 kilometres or
2:05
about 80 miles across an absolute variety of of, of
2:08
terrain and different areas. It served us fantastically for
2:13
70 years. The engineering that went into
2:16
it is just brilliant and it's served as well, but it's now
2:21
beginning to get to the end of its asset life.
2:23
And so the project is all about looking at effectively replacing
2:26
the key, the key sections of that to sustain this this water
2:31
supply for many years to come. OK.
2:33
Thanks John for that overview. And So what you have you been
2:37
involved right from the start, so from 7 years ago?
2:41
No, I haven't. So I joined the project about 3
2:43
years ago, just at a stage when the project was beginning to go
2:47
out into the procurement phase to look at suppliers and a
2:50
supply chain network to to deliver this.
2:54
OK. And what are your role and
2:57
response? What's your role and
2:58
responsibilities right now for the programme?
3:02
So my experience throughout my career started out with
3:05
engineering and I've moved into a variety of different roles in
3:08
my career. But the, the area I've, I spent
3:12
most of my career in his project delivery, project management,
3:15
programme management. So I was brought in three years
3:18
ago to effectively get the, the project ready, match ready, if
3:23
you like, for when this project moves into the construction
3:25
phase. So my role currently is the Head
3:28
of Programme Delivery for United Utilities and I'm also the named
3:32
representative under the commercial contracts we have
3:34
with the with the supply chain. Could you give me a bit more
3:39
about what work is actually involved, because I'm quite
3:43
interested in the history of this.
3:44
It is a kind of, you know, Britain, England is full of
3:48
infrastructure that has been was built in Victorian times or, you
3:52
know, a quite a long time ago. And certainly renewing critical
3:58
infrastructure like this is is going to only increase as the
4:02
decades go on. So like, I'm sure you've been
4:07
into the system. Like can you give us an idea of
4:10
what it's like and what work will actually be done to renew
4:14
it, if that's not too of an obvious question to ask?
4:20
Yeah, no, it's fine. So as I mentioned before, the
4:23
as, as the Northwest was growing and as Manchester was growing as
4:26
a city back in the early 1900's, the needs to supply water was,
4:32
was was huge for population and industrial growth.
4:36
So, so the lakes were an obvious place for storage and collection
4:42
of water. Then of course that water then
4:43
has to be transported down to to Manchester.
4:46
So the Horse Water Aqueduct was constructed between 1933 and
4:50
1955 between the two world wars where resources were scarce,
4:56
manpower was scarce. And it was constructed through a
4:59
range of through, through geography, through hills where
5:03
we where the team and the project were able to tunnel
5:06
through the hills and through sections of pipe work as well
5:09
where there's valleys. So what this ended up with was
5:12
a, an 80 mile aqueduct that's made-up of tunnels and pipe work
5:15
sections and, and and wells that effectively conveyed a huge
5:21
amount of water to allow the growth of Manchester.
5:24
And the absolute fantastic thing about the the the the aqueduct
5:28
when it was built is that the water runs by gravity.
5:31
So taking that amount of water from the north of our region
5:36
down to the South of the region without a single KJ of energy,
5:39
it's just a fantastic achievement, fantastic
5:42
engineering and it's served us really well.
5:46
But towards the kind of 20 tens, we as a company began to get
5:51
concerned about some aspects of its condition and we were able
5:55
to actually get an opportunity to isolate the the aqueduct and
5:59
go in and have a look at it. Now even doing that was a huge
6:03
task organisationally because if you can imagine the Northwest of
6:07
England as a human body, the kind of heart of that body is
6:12
the lakes where a lot of our water is stored.
6:14
But the, the horsewater aqueduct is like the main aorta.
6:17
So this is the main conduit that is distributing the water out to
6:21
to a lot of the northwest communities.
6:24
So to suddenly take that out of service to go in and have a look
6:27
at it and inspect it, it's kind of doing like open heart surgery
6:30
on, on a patient. So an awful lot of enabling
6:33
where it's had to be done to just allow us to go in and have
6:36
a look into this aqueduct. We've now done that two times,
6:39
once in 2013 and once in 2016. And we're able to go in and have
6:44
a look round and give it a bit of a poke and a prod.
6:47
And what, what we found in those asset inspections is that this
6:50
this asset is deteriorating, not imminently, but it definitely
6:54
needs some, some intervention in the next, in the next few years.
6:59
And that those inspections really are what drove the need
7:02
to do the replacement of the of the horse water aqueduct.
7:06
And that's effectively the the what gave rise to the project.
7:10
So what will you be doing exactly to to renew it and to
7:13
make it resilient and, you know, Fit for the Fit for use now and
7:18
for the coming decades? So of of the of the the 80 miles
7:24
of of of Horzaltrakodo that exists today, probably about
7:26
half of that is in tunnel sections.
7:29
So these are deep, effectively pipes or tunnels that have been
7:34
hewn through the rock of of the hills in the northwest of
7:38
England. Some of them are kind of 304
7:40
hundred metres deep. The diameter is about two to
7:45
three metres. So these are large kind of
7:47
tunnels and they're the sections that we're most concerned about.
7:52
So what we'll be doing on the HARP is effectively going in and
7:56
creating brand new tunnels to replace those tunnels that are
7:59
beginning to degrade. So effectively HARP is a huge
8:02
civil engineering tunnelling project.
8:05
Well, as we take on to replace those six separate tunnel
8:08
sections that make up about like I say half of that sort of 80
8:11
mile run. It's kind of awesome what people
8:15
achieved, you know, what the engineers achieved in the
8:17
1930's. The way you describe it, it just
8:20
must have been back breaking work and so dangerous at the
8:25
time. Do you feel that kind of sense
8:27
of history with a project like this?
8:30
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you look back at
8:32
some of the black and white images, it's like long before
8:36
PPE, long before modern construction practises.
8:40
It's just breathtaking. I mean, what what these guys did
8:42
effectively trying to create a tunnel through just solid rock,
8:47
effectively using dynamite, you know, drilling the little holes
8:50
into the rock, filling them with dynamite, lighting the fuse and
8:53
stepping back and letting this thing blow itself open.
8:56
And then slowly then creating this this aqueduct, this tunnel
9:01
by using fairly rudimentary sort of support systems and concrete
9:06
forming systems was absolutely incredible.
9:08
What they did back then and what they've achieved.
9:10
And as I said before, to be able to build all that to such a
9:13
level of accuracy that the water can flow completely by gravity
9:17
for that that distance is, is an incredible feat.
9:20
And the feeling around the project now is we're in a
9:25
fantastic position to to replicate what our forefathers
9:29
did, but but make it even better as well.
9:30
We want this new aqueduct to operate again under gravity, but
9:36
be completely, you know, suitable for carrying water and
9:41
also to last even longer if we can.
9:42
We're looking for this new tunnel suite of tunnels to last
9:46
over 120 years. So there's a real feel that this
9:49
is a project that will endure. It will be.
9:53
It'll certainly help live me, my children and possibly their
9:56
children and their children again.
9:57
So it's a multi generational asset that we're delivering
10:00
here. And the project does have that
10:02
kind of special feel about it, a real pleasure to be on on on a
10:06
project of such sort of scale and, and like I say, once in a
10:09
generation opportunity really. Is that that must motivate you
10:13
as a kind of project leader to that idea of legacy and working
10:17
on something that is so critical?
10:19
100 percent, 100%. Like I said before, we, we
10:22
deliver a lot of projects within United Utilities, but this one's
10:24
always kind of stood out as being a really special project.
10:28
And, and even working day-to-day with the project team, we talk a
10:32
lot about legacy. We talk a lot about projects
10:34
like this not come along very often.
10:37
And yes, there's a huge sense of like an obligation to do your
10:41
best on any, any project on any, on any scheme and in any role,
10:45
particularly on this, this one. It just feels that little bit
10:47
special. It's it's a feeling that sits
10:50
around the project, which is great.
10:53
The motor face is definitely, definitely there to deliver
10:55
something that that will endure and like I say, will last for
10:57
many, many generations. But I think the other aspect of
11:02
the project that really motivates me is what we can do
11:05
while we're delivering the project.
11:06
So we talk about legacy in terms of what we'll leave behind and
11:10
what we'll leave for many generations to enjoy.
11:12
But there's also an opportunity in the eight years that we're
11:16
constructing this project have a massive positive impact on
11:19
communities, on careers, on education.
11:22
So one of the aspects of HARP I'm really proud about is our
11:26
sort of commitments to social value, what we're looking to do
11:28
during the construction of the project as well.
11:30
What can you tell us a bit about that?
11:32
So I guess you'd be creating a number of jobs in the local area
11:37
and training people up. And is this also a platform for
11:40
training people up on this kind of infrastructure renewal so
11:47
that if, you know, if and when this happens again within the
11:50
UK, then we've got people here who can sort of be ready to give
11:54
their expertise? Yeah, 100%.
11:57
So, so we, when we went out to market, one of the things we're
12:00
really keen to do is engage with a supply chain that we're as, as
12:05
passionate about this aspect of the project as we were.
12:08
And, and social value is a really important thing to, to
12:10
unite utilities and it absolutely flows through into
12:14
the vision and values of of HARP as well.
12:16
So some of our ambitions on social value where we've looked
12:20
at small and medium enterprise spend, we're looking to commit
12:23
at least 25% of our SME spend in the local area with local
12:27
businesses and that can really make a difference on HARP.
12:32
At the peak, we're looking to have Circuit 1500 employees
12:35
across the various sites working on the project.
12:39
And again, the commitment to that is that we'll have at least
12:42
30% of that will be again from local communities and, and, and
12:45
their local areas. And one that I'm really keen to
12:51
have in there and really proud to have is 5% of the workforce
12:55
at any one time will be apprentices.
12:57
So that can be a kind of 60 apprentices a year that were
13:00
taken from local colleges, local schools, local communities, and
13:04
giving them hopefully a step into construction and that they
13:08
can use on harp and obviously then take tape with them into
13:11
the rest of their career. So that investment in
13:13
communities, skills, education, it's, it's a huge part of the
13:17
project and it's one that I'm really keen to kind of lead and
13:20
keep, keep the fire lit under the whole, the whole of the
13:22
eight years we're going to be building this.
13:25
How much is climate change mitigation part of some you know
13:31
the programme does it affect what you do?
13:33
Is what you know how, how is that that risk sort of thought
13:39
about and dealt with on on the programme?
13:43
Yeah. No, it definitely has featured
13:45
in our thinking and it factors into the programme in in
13:47
probably at least two or three ways.
13:49
So one of the things we've been really keen is during the
13:53
construction phase of of the project is to invoke a keen eye
13:59
on our impact on the environment.
14:01
So tunnelling is a big civil engineering endeavour.
14:04
He cannot get away from that requires big machines, you know,
14:08
shifting larger large amounts of material.
14:11
But that said, there are things you can do to to minimise the
14:14
impact of where that material goes.
14:17
So we've been really proactive in looking for local areas to
14:22
dispose on that one, to cut down the carbon footprints of
14:25
transporting the material to around the place, but also
14:28
putting it to beneficial use. So we've been able to speak to
14:32
local quarries or local land owners that might be able to use
14:35
the material. We've also got some pretty
14:37
stretching KPIs on energy use. So how some of the tunnel boring
14:41
machines themselves, which are huge power users, how they'll
14:44
actually be powered has also factored into our thinking.
14:47
And we've come up with some quite iterative ways of looking
14:51
at the least damaging or the least impacting ways for power
14:55
use. So definitely while the
14:57
project's been building, while project's been built, that's
14:59
been in front of our mind, but also longer term.
15:02
So, so water and water scarcity is, you know, a real issue, not
15:09
just in the UK, but across the world.
15:11
And when you're building an asset like heart that's going to
15:14
last for potentially 120 years or more, thinking about its
15:18
future use is just as important as think about it's the need for
15:22
it today. So what we've been able to do is
15:25
try and future proof as much as we can the assets.
15:29
So in terms of the size of the existing horsal Tricroduct,
15:33
it's, it's about 2 1/2, three metres, 3 1/2 metres in
15:37
diameter. And going forward, we're going
15:39
to make that bigger, not that that carrying capacity is needed
15:42
today, but it might well be in the future.
15:46
So again, the the trick there is obviously making sure we've got
15:49
enough flexibility to future proof the asset in case we
15:51
haven't needed to shift the water around in different ways
15:54
or shift different volumes, but not burdening today's customers
15:57
with that as a cost. And that's that kind of balance
16:00
we've been we've factored in, in the sort of strategic approach
16:03
on HARP. OK, thanks.
16:06
And the programme is working on the new delivery model which is
16:12
called the direct procurement for customers DPC model.
16:16
And I think this programme is a Pathfinder for that.
16:18
So can you tell us what that means exactly for people who
16:22
might not be, who who might not know?
16:25
So in the water industry, all water companies are have an
16:29
economic regulator called Off Watt off water very much there
16:34
to ensure that the water companies deliver in the most
16:36
efficient and effective way. And probably 5 or 6 years ago
16:43
off what looked into various different ways of delivering
16:46
projects and they wanted to trial something that was a
16:48
little bit different and that's where DPC came from.
16:52
So DPC stands for direct procurement for customers and
16:56
what it invites water companies to do is effectively not only
17:00
engage organisations to design and build assets, but also to
17:05
design, build them, finance them, maintain them and in some
17:10
case operate them as well. And that's that's the sort of
17:14
procurement approach that that the half will be delivered.
17:17
Under what are the benefits that this model hopes to bring to the
17:21
delivery of the programme? The idea behind DPC is to, as I
17:26
said before, make projects more innovative and efficient.
17:31
And the way it intends to do that is look at different
17:34
sources of finance for projects. It's looking to attract
17:37
different different parties, different delivery partners that
17:41
might not normally have been attracted to the UK water
17:44
industry, which with them then brings innovation.
17:46
And that's certainly what we've seen on HARP in terms of the
17:49
interest across the supply chain.
17:51
We're now in a position where we've awarded the contracts to
17:53
what we call a cap or a competitively appointed
17:56
contractor. So that's the the special
17:58
purpose vehicle that will actually deliver the scheme.
18:00
And they are entities that certainly we in United Utilities
18:03
have have not used before. So it's definitely seeing some
18:06
fresh names in and around the sector.
18:09
I'd like to ask you about stakeholders and who the
18:11
stakeholders are that you deal with and United, am I correct?
18:17
United Utilities, does it own all of the infrastructure that
18:21
you're working on is that? It it does, yeah, it does.
18:25
So all of our assets are owned by United Utilities.
18:29
This will be the first asset that we've have ever delivered
18:31
whereby effectively it's owned by a another for a period of
18:35
time and that's a feature of the the DPC model.
18:38
So as I mentioned before, the, the, the, the DPC model allows
18:44
effectively a new entity called the CAP, a competitively
18:48
appointed provider to design, build, finance, operate and
18:51
maintain the asset. So once the construction of HARP
18:54
is complete after sort of eight years, they will actually own
18:57
the asset for another 25 years. And as effectively you, you and
19:02
its customer base pay off the the initial sort of financial
19:06
outlay and then that asset comes into our asset base fully.
19:11
Who are the most critical stakeholders that you're
19:13
engaging with and what challenges have you been able to
19:18
overcome and any advice you'd pass on to professionals working
19:22
in in, you know, in in a similar way or affected by similar
19:25
issues? Yeah, so it's a great question.
19:29
I mean the, the, the stakeholder reach on a, on a programme, the
19:32
size of HARP is, is issues as you'd imagine.
19:36
Key stakeholders are obviously our customers and we're doing
19:39
this for our customers. Two and a half million of our
19:43
seven million 7,000,000 customer base will benefit from this
19:46
project. So it it'll impact from a
19:49
beneficial point of view a huge proportion of our customers, but
19:53
quite a small number of our customers will actually be
19:55
impacted in the construction. But they're the ones that really
19:59
have in the front of our minds as a, as a key stakeholder.
20:02
Obviously, we have our industry regulator off Watts.
20:05
This is their first DPC out of the blocks.
20:08
They're hugely keen to see how it goes though.
20:10
So they have all eyes on the project and we work very closely
20:12
with those guys. We now have our supply chain,
20:15
our partners in place. So we have the cap, as we said
20:18
before, the competitively appointed provider.
20:20
And we've got another body called the ITA, an independent
20:23
technical adviser who also sits as part of the HARP supply
20:27
chain. So really key stakeholders
20:28
there. We have key stakeholders in the
20:32
local communities with MPs, local councillors, local
20:35
community leaders. So it's a, it's a vast array as
20:39
you can imagine. And it's a real effort to keep
20:43
all of the stakeholders at the right level of being informed,
20:47
engaged and communicated with, consulted with.
20:49
So it's a huge range. But one of the big challenges we
20:52
faced on HAARP was in the, in the kind of relatively early
20:56
phases of planning where we, we were really keen to go out and
20:58
speak to particularly the customers and the local
21:00
communities about the project, about the impacts it might have
21:03
about what the what the project will look and feel like.
21:07
And normally we'd go about that by take, you know, doing sort of
21:10
town hall sessions or consultation sessions face to
21:13
face. And that was the root and the
21:15
tactic we adopted on HAARP. But bearing in mind the huge
21:18
geographical spread, you know, the 80 miles kind of top to
21:21
bottom, that was a huge endeavour.
21:23
And that was all going really well.
21:26
But then COVID hit. So this was around 2020.
21:29
So that really sort of stymied our plans to to get out there
21:32
and speak to people face to face.
21:35
So for the first time, certainly in in United Utilities history,
21:40
we took that public consultation online.
21:43
It sounds old hat now because everything's done online, but
21:45
back then it was kind of quite a new to us.
21:47
And we held online drop in sessions, online surgeries,
21:50
online briefings, presentations, and we didn't know how it was
21:53
going to go right. But to be honest, it was
21:56
fantastic. It meant, perversely, we reached
21:58
far more people than we ever would have done doing it the old
22:02
fashioned way. And we listened.
22:05
I think one of the key lessons I've certainly picked up from On
22:07
Harp is listen, you know, listen more and speak less.
22:14
And we got an absolute wealth of feedback from the communities
22:17
about what they were worried about, what they wanted to see,
22:20
what they didn't want to see, how they thought it could be
22:22
delivered better in a less impactful way.
22:25
And because we did that early enough in the project, we were
22:27
able to take some of those gems and actually like incorporate
22:30
them into the scheme design, how we're going to deliver it, how
22:33
we're going to constrain the supply chain when they deliver
22:35
it. So that stakeholder engagement
22:38
with the customers wasn't just there to get buy into the
22:42
project, which is normally the step, the aim.
22:44
It was, it was that, but it was also to get steerage on the
22:47
project and allow that to to shape the project.
22:49
So a lot of effort was put into it around that time in ways that
22:54
we never imagined doing, but it was really, really successful.
22:57
And it's actually our largest public consultation we've ever
22:59
done for any project across United Utilities and it's really
23:04
even now bearing fruit. Could you explain to me exactly
23:10
where you are now on the programme and what you're
23:12
working on right now? Sure.
23:14
So, so we managed to close the procurement process at the back
23:19
end of last summer. That was a lengthy process, but
23:25
hugely rewarding to get to contract award or to call it
23:28
financial close in ADPC setting and that happened last August.
23:33
So a really great milestone for the project and, and such an
23:37
effort, a huge amount of effort from the project team that was
23:42
fantastic. So that was kind of seven or
23:44
eight months ago now. So we're now beginning to get
23:47
into what is an 8 year construction programme.
23:50
We're in year 1. So a lot of the folks in the
23:54
last sort of 6 to 8 months have been on mobilisation of the the
23:57
new supply chain, getting them set up, getting them inducted
24:02
into what we're trying to deliver, new systems, new
24:06
people. We've Co located in a sort of
24:09
new sort of programme office. So we're all sat together, which
24:12
has been an absolute, absolute coup in terms of sort of
24:16
promoting collaboration. How many people are based there
24:20
do you think? So we've probably got over 100
24:23
people, maybe 100 to 130 people Co located.
24:28
And when I, when we first moved into this, our office, which is
24:31
in kind of the city centre of Manchester, which got a nice
24:34
link to obviously this is the community largely that this
24:37
project will be, will be serving.
24:39
I'm sat there thinking, there's no way we're going to fill this
24:41
office. This is huge.
24:42
And within six months we've outgrown it beyond all belief.
24:46
So we're actually looking to open some other offices now and
24:49
some of the sort of depots to sort of accommodate the growing
24:52
team. But what, what that office has
24:54
allowed us though, is to bring the whole of the programme
24:56
together. So we're sat in there as the, as
24:59
the kind of appointee for the scheme, as United Utilities.
25:02
We've sat with the CAP who's an organisation called Cascade
25:06
Infrastructure, they have their main contractor, an organisation
25:10
called Strabag, Strabag UK and we've also got the independent
25:14
Technical Shorer who sat with us who's children in Townsend and
25:19
OTBE Engineering. So lots of different
25:22
organisations but all sat together for two or three days a
25:25
week. Yes, we meet and we have our
25:27
formal meetings and our update meetings, but the power of
25:31
sitting together are the corridor conversations, the kind
25:34
of, you know, informal interactions that you have that
25:38
just help really Foster and build those relationships.
25:42
So having that set up has been a real, a real, a real game
25:45
changer in my mind. It's really got the the
25:47
programme out of the blocks. Was that something that you that
25:50
United Utilities had always wanted to put in place for a
25:53
project like this? Because it is a new way of doing
25:55
things. So I'm wondering how what the
25:57
approach to managing a programme like this would be and how it's,
26:02
and now it's different to, to maybe previous programmes you've
26:05
worked on. So I mean, I'm just here hearing
26:08
collaboration, but I don't know what was kind of at the
26:12
forefront of people's minds to in their approach to running
26:16
this programme, the construction freight phase at least.
26:20
Yeah, it's a good question, to be honest.
26:22
We, we really wanted this as an organisation, but we didn't want
26:27
to force people into it. So the way we actually procured
26:31
heart was actually, we left it open.
26:33
We said to our prospective partners, if you would like to
26:37
work together and have a collaborative programme office,
26:41
we'll be in it with you. You know, let's do it.
26:43
But if you don't, you don't necessarily have to.
26:45
But if you do, please make space for us kind of thing.
26:47
And what was really pleasing is our preferred bidder and now our
26:50
successful CAP really wanted that too.
26:54
And so it was kind of a we, we dangled, I guess we fished for
26:57
it and, and, and we got what we're hoping for really.
27:00
But that's been a real sort of Energizer to, to bring people
27:04
together like you're saying. And things, some of the things
27:08
I've seen that really have helped that is it might seem a
27:12
little bit twee and I know most projects have this, but we spent
27:15
quite a lot of time in those early weeks and months
27:17
developing our common sort of project vision, project values,
27:22
which is the first kind of test of everyone working together,
27:24
right? Can you just come up with
27:25
something that you can all sort of centre around?
27:28
And, and we did do that and we have that now and it's public
27:31
and it's available and, and what we don't want it to be and it
27:37
isn't, it's something that just sits on the wall that nobody
27:39
ever looks at. People do talk about it.
27:41
So when we're in meetings and we're talking about issues and
27:43
we see behaviours that aren't quite right, we draw it back to
27:46
the project vision because that sets out exactly what this
27:48
project is trying to achieve. And I just don't think you would
27:52
have got that cohesion around that kind of central idiom if
27:56
you'd been sat in all over the world or in separate offices in
27:58
the UK. So I'm a big believer in that
28:01
sort of Co location aspect. I'm interviewing you for this
28:07
podcast because you wrote a really interesting feature for
28:09
the Summer 2026 issue project and there was some, there were
28:14
two things in the feature that you mentioned that I wanted to
28:17
pick up. The first was that you said your
28:21
instinct has always been to seek clarity, define the problem,
28:25
analyse the options, land on the optimal solution.
28:29
And the more senior people I speak to in project management,
28:32
the more clarity, simplicity and a kind of coherent vision seems
28:39
to matter a lot. Can make the difference between
28:42
a project that's OK and one that's highly successful, I bet.
28:45
So I'm keen to pin you down a bit more now I've got you here
28:49
for you before you go and jump, jump into that reservoir behind
28:52
you. Hi inside Lake.
28:54
Could you tell me a bit more about your clarity and how
28:58
important that is to you as a as a programme leader?
29:02
I guess when in my mind when you're dealing with a single.
29:04
So if you perhaps as an engineer, I remember in the
29:07
early parts of my career when you're dealing with A1 specific
29:10
pro problem, say it's or an issue, it's relatively closed,
29:14
it's relatively narrow. It's kind of 1 dimensional.
29:17
It's, it can be 1 dimensional, relatively simple and clear.
29:21
But on a project like HAARP has taught me and other projects
29:26
before that is project programmes at scale, that
29:30
certainty is, is elusive. It, it just isn't there.
29:34
It's, it's the old Vuka world that we live in.
29:37
The noise is louder, the issues and more numerous.
29:41
The agendas are wider, it's more diverse, So what was once A1
29:45
dimensional issue is now something that's far more
29:48
complex. There's technical aspects,
29:50
there's planning, there's finance, there's community,
29:52
there's risk, there's schedule, there's just a lot more going on
29:55
and it can be overwhelming. So from an engineering mindset
29:59
it can easily, it can easily be overwhelming for you.
30:02
But what I've kind of learnt is the same sort of principles can
30:06
be applied and, and do apply. And it sounds obvious, but it it
30:10
is just breaking it into those chunks that make it more
30:13
manageable. And yes, they interconnect.
30:17
So the technical chunk may interconnect with the planning
30:20
chunk, which interconnects with finance and the community and
30:24
they all have interdependencies. But if you can organise yourself
30:28
and your team in a way that addresses each chunk and just
30:32
make each area's life, I guess, as simple and as clear as
30:37
possible, that just allows people to crack on.
30:40
But the real magic is effectively bringing that
30:43
together and making sure that they stay connected.
30:48
Yes, you were doing your bit, but you also need to know how
30:51
your bit perhaps interacts with this bit over here and how that
30:53
then changes this bit over here. So it's really important I've
30:58
been given that clarity at kind of chunk level, if you like, or
31:00
work stream level to bring people together.
31:03
Now I meet with my team once a week, every Friday morning to do
31:06
exactly that. What's happened this week?
31:07
What's happening in your world that might impact someone else's
31:10
world? And we regularly have team
31:12
scrums as well, again, just to make sure people can understand
31:14
their interconnectivity and people can almost have that read
31:17
across as to what's happening. So big projects are inherently
31:22
complex. Like I said, that clarity and
31:26
simplicity can be lost. But there is a way, I believe,
31:28
of bringing that kind of rigour to it that simplifies what
31:31
you're asking of each part of the team.
31:33
But if the magic, as it says, is making sure you keep them
31:35
connected so people don't sort of drift off into their own,
31:39
it's their own areas. That's interesting.
31:41
Also something I'm thinking about as you were telling me
31:45
that was you have people from different organisations working
31:49
closely together and each organisational team has their
31:52
own culture. So how do you go about in
31:55
skating the kind of over overarching culture for a
31:58
project like this? How do you establish principles?
32:01
Is it formal or is it just info? This is the way we do things and
32:04
you lead by example I think. I think that's really
32:08
interesting to get your kind of first hand expertise from that.
32:13
Yes, it's a great question. It's something we've spent a lot
32:16
of time on, like I said in the last six months on Harper as
32:20
we're mobilised because I was really big on making sure that
32:24
we can galvanised the new parties and the new
32:27
organisations as we move into project award around something
32:31
that unites us. But I think to suddenly say we
32:35
want you all to now adopt the harp culture and that's the only
32:37
culture you'll ever have. It's just like it's naive and
32:40
it's not going to work. So I think in minds, in my
32:43
mindset, the way we sort of pitched it to our various
32:48
partners is that you will all come with your own
32:50
organisational culture. Like United Utilities has one,
32:53
Strabike will have 1, Cascade will have one, turn in towns and
32:56
we'll have one. And we're not asking you to lose
32:58
that because you can't. It's just, you know, you'll
33:00
always have that kind of home organisational way of doing
33:05
things. But what we want is a layer on
33:06
top of that which is unique to HARP.
33:09
So let's figure out what it is that unites us on a programme of
33:12
this scale. What lights our fires?
33:14
What are we here to do? What can, what sort of
33:17
behaviours and values can we can we hang our hat on and you make
33:21
something that's unique to the programme that doesn't then
33:24
decry everybody else's home culture.
33:26
They'll always be there, right? But what is it that makes U.S.
33:28
special on that? That's what I was mentioned
33:30
before about just even the vision of values bit.
33:33
It just gives you that line of connectivity across and you can
33:36
then start to build relationships on and collaborate
33:39
around. So I don't think you can ever
33:42
completely wipe everybody's old world away.
33:45
Like the old men in black, you press the button and they've
33:47
also forgotten and they they get reborn into a new project
33:50
culture. I think you have to overlay
33:51
what's already there with something that's that's unique
33:53
and special for for what you're trying to achieve.
33:56
You must feel under a considerable amount of pressure,
33:59
not least because it's a Pathfinder programme, but also
34:03
the level of public and governmental scrutiny and water
34:06
projects at the moment. I mean, it's just in the
34:07
headlines and there's a lot of strong sentiment about what
34:10
needs to change in this country to clean up water and give us
34:13
what we need. Is that what bearing does that
34:16
have on the project as well? Yeah.
34:20
Look, yes, you're absolutely right.
34:22
The, the, the, the, the water companies and the water sectors
34:25
and the huge amount of scrutiny at the moment.
34:28
And that's felt within United Utilities as well.
34:34
United Tools is looking to invest over sort of £13 billion
34:37
over the next five years in as part of what we call the big
34:40
Northwest upgrade. And that effectively to do many
34:43
things. But a lot of that is around
34:46
cleaning up rivers and seas. And it's the biggest investment
34:49
in in the Northwest for over 100 years.
34:51
So there's an awful lot going on.
34:54
And how does that impact Harp? Well, hugely.
34:58
I mean all of that work that will be carried out will have an
35:02
impact on our customers bills. All of the work that will be
35:05
carried out on HARP will have an impact on our customers bills
35:08
and there's almost a moral duty on all of us to deliver HARP as
35:14
efficiently as possible to minimise that impact.
35:17
With the cost of living crisis and everything else going on, we
35:20
have a position of responsibility and influence to
35:23
make sure this project is delivered as efficiently as
35:26
possible to minimise what people are paying.
35:29
So I feel personally duty bound to kind of work in the best
35:32
interests of our customers every day.
35:35
And that's, that's something else a lot of the team feel as
35:37
well. So, so yeah, there's a lot of
35:39
scrutiny on the sector, but we can do something about that to
35:42
to sort of make that make that better and a more palatable sort
35:47
of thing we deliver. And does it then inform the kind
35:56
of accountability and transparency in a project like
35:59
this? You know, not it.
36:01
It's about just being open with what's going on and honest about
36:06
saying, not saying, not in any way saying that you wouldn't be.
36:09
But it's almost a counter what's happened in the past by the
36:14
water companies or whatever is it.
36:16
Is it really? Does that inform the culture of
36:19
the project as well? Yeah, it does.
36:21
There's, there's an awful lot of scrutiny on water companies more
36:27
generally like, like I said, so and the flip side of that is, is
36:32
to effectively, like I say, adopt A more transparent way of
36:36
working. So a great example of this
36:37
slightly outside the heart, but with United Utilities is that
36:42
every day now we publish our, our CSO, which is our, sorry,
36:46
our combined sewer overflow activations on a map, you can go
36:50
on it, you can find your nearest overflow.
36:52
You can see if it's activated or not.
36:54
It's completely out there in the public domain in the public
36:56
interest. And people can see when projects
37:00
are delivered, how it improves and impacts that situation.
37:04
And the similarity on HARP is, is the sense that the level of
37:08
regulatory scrutiny and sharing of information with our
37:12
regulator is, is kind of off the scale.
37:14
One, because of the size of HARP and, and what's riding on it.
37:17
And secondarily because it is this this new delivery model of
37:20
what really key to see how it goes.
37:22
They want to take that learning forward.
37:23
So there's not a week or a kind of month that goes by that I'm
37:27
not asked or the team are not asked to go and present how
37:30
things are going, where the numbers are up to where the
37:32
programme up to how, how things are kind of transpiring.
37:36
And we have every quarter a very open, we call it a quarterly
37:40
liaison committee where we speak to offer about how all aspects
37:43
of the project are, are sort of developing.
37:45
So almost everything we do on HARP is, is shared pretty openly
37:49
with our sort of regulator and with the the broader
37:52
stakeholders as well. I'm going to go rewind back to
37:56
the second point, which I wanted to ask you about, which you
37:59
wrote about in the feature which really grabbed my attention was
38:02
that you wrote that your biggest personal shift has been going
38:05
from problem solver to systems steward.
38:09
And I really love that. And I wonder when you're working
38:11
on a hugely complex projects programme like this, that this,
38:16
this idea of systems steward is a really valuable one and one
38:20
that perhaps might only increase in the futures projects as
38:23
collaboration increases. And you know, we live in a, like
38:27
you say, a VUCA world, but can you tell me a bit more about,
38:32
about that sort of personal shift?
38:36
You know, what is the systems student?
38:37
How does that work for you on a project like this?
38:40
Yeah, Oh, sure, sure. So it's again, I guess it goes
38:43
back to the origins of my career being in engineering.
38:47
I've I've really pushed myself in my career.
38:49
And again, this would be something I'd, I'd advise others
38:52
to do who are, who are perhaps setting out in theirs is to, if
38:55
you possibly can take the opportunity to broaden yourself,
38:59
push yourself into different roles, different areas of
39:03
learning. So I've been an engineer, I've
39:06
also worked in design management, I've worked in
39:08
commercial management, I've worked in project and programme
39:11
management, and I've worked kind of in operational frontline and,
39:15
and maintenance. And I think having been
39:17
fortunate enough to move around in those different roles, the by
39:21
product of that is it's allowed me to kind of see the bigger
39:23
picture. And what I mean by that is, you
39:27
know, a decision made in an engineering world can have a
39:32
massive impact on the assets that someone then operates and
39:36
maintains for the rest of their life.
39:37
So that helped me to really start to understand this
39:42
system's thinking. You know, everything's
39:43
interlinked and, and unfortunately, the role,
39:46
sometimes you can only ever see the bit to your left and the bit
39:48
to your right. But to have the opportunity to
39:50
see that bigger picture is, is really important.
39:53
And I think working on hard has allowed me to apply that because
39:58
leading the team from AUU perspective, you know what?
40:02
I know that bigger picture and I know the history of the asset.
40:05
I know what it does. I know the criticality of it.
40:09
I can. So I know the commercial
40:11
construct construct. I can see how the DPC models
40:15
evolved over the years and it's landed.
40:17
I understand the parties, the duty holders, how it all fits
40:20
together. I understand the geography and
40:22
the communities that we're going to be impacting.
40:24
So from that kind of vantage point, I can really help bring
40:28
the project vision to life and to encourage the collaboration
40:32
that's needed to meet the meet the goal.
40:35
And you just can't lead in that way if you if you're purely
40:37
transactional. I think you need to kind of step
40:42
up and kind of exit or demonstrate a little bit of a
40:44
different project leadership style.
40:48
Sometimes it's directive, it has to be it's just it's kind of
40:51
just a go do. But more often that I feel I'm
40:54
moving some more of a coaching kind of integration type style,
40:58
you know, explaining the bigger picture, be it to off water or
41:02
to the supply chain or to the customers, because all of those
41:04
different stakeholders all have a very different lens on the
41:07
project. You're or I find myself in a
41:10
privileged position where I'm at the centre of that and I can see
41:13
the the join up really, and I love it.
41:15
I mean, it's great. Just to wrap up, are there any
41:21
lessons that you've learned about working on a programme
41:26
like this or any leadership lessons that you've learnt that
41:30
you would pass on? Yeah.
41:34
I mean, I think we've, we've maybe covered quite a few, but
41:36
there's probably sort of four or five that sort of having
41:41
reflected on, on half. I mean, number one problem being
41:47
the breadth of experience I've been able to have him in my
41:50
career has really put me in a good place to, to, to sort of
41:54
take this project on. So like I said before, if, if
41:57
people listen to this and have the opportunity to work on
42:01
different roles, different project, that's stretchy and
42:03
that's where that's where the growth is the personal growth.
42:05
So, so do do that and you know, have breadth in your experience
42:11
because, because when projects and opportunities come up in the
42:13
future, that will really bear fruit.
42:17
I think as we mentioned before, another key lesson is, is the
42:19
one about stakeholder and stakeholder engagement being
42:23
absolutely critical. Do it early.
42:25
Listen more than you speak and allow, allow what you hear to
42:29
influence the project. Don't just treat it as a tick,
42:31
tick box exercise that that that can really help.
42:35
I think the third one is that whole legacy piece, Like I said
42:39
it, IT projects are more than just like tunnels through hills
42:42
and, and you know, concrete tubes.
42:44
It's a huge legacy that will impact society for years to
42:47
come. And there's the here and now,
42:50
there's the social value. What can your project do to make
42:53
people's life better through careers, investment, education?
42:58
And if that's what they can do, then lead it, you know, step
43:01
into that and drive it forward. Perhaps the next lesson is, is,
43:06
is just that importance about collaboration kind of is the way
43:10
I, I tend to lead naturally, but make room for it.
43:14
So like physically make room for it.
43:15
Sit together, work together, spend time together, talk and
43:20
really try and galvanise the team around you is another key
43:24
1. So yeah, it's, it's taught me
43:26
lots. There's not a day I don't learn,
43:29
which again, I think is another blessing, something it will
43:33
continue to stretch me. This programme of sure, but it's
43:36
been a real ride so far and I'm I'm looking forward to carrying
43:39
on and see where we get to the next few years.
43:41
John, thank you. When when is the project due to
43:44
complete? So the project's eight years end
43:49
to end, but we should start to receive the first tunnels, as I
43:53
mentioned for the six of them. So we'll get, we'll get them
43:55
kind of incrementally, but the first one will be brought into
43:57
service in 2031. So we've got a few years yet, a
44:01
lot of tunnelling ahead of us. And then sort of 2033 years will
44:05
be when we get the final tunnel and we'll have a brand new north
44:09
to South Horse water aqueduct and safely supplying water to
44:13
two and a half million people. And that'll be a huge
44:17
achievement, I'm sure. Brilliant, John.
44:20
That's a great way to end our podcast.
44:22
I just want to thank you again for your time.
44:25
It's been so interesting speaking to you, finding out
44:28
about what it takes to get a programme like this off the
44:30
ground and what it's like to work on a once in a generation
44:33
project. And if people would like to read
44:37
more about it, then watch out for the Summer 2026 issue
44:40
project where we you give us a detailed account of some of the
44:45
background and what's going on there as well.
44:48
So thank you John again for your time.
44:49
It's been a pleasure talking to you.
44:52
Also a pleasure. Thanks Emma for the opportunity.