Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / Vanquishing Back Pain
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- This podcast explores chronic pain and trauma getting to the heart of how to heal >> Lyndsay Soprano: This is your pain game podcast, where we talk about the game of living in and with chronic pain and trauma getting to the heart of how to heal. I am your host, Lyndsay Soprano. On the show, I plan on discussing with doctors, chronic pain patients, holistic practitioners, loved ones, and anybody that is interested in having their voice heard in the chronic pain and trauma world that we live in. So I have only experienced, like, severe back pain when I had a surgery for my back, but it wasn't because I had back pain. I got back pain after a surgery. >> Esther Gokhale: So. >> Lyndsay Soprano: So with my CRPS chronic regional pain syndrome, one of the things from one of my pain doctors back in the day, when I paid more attention to western medicine than I do now, they wanted to put a spinal cord stimulator in my back, which ended up turning into the biggest shit show on the planet and ended up causing me paralysis on part of my body and had to have an emergency removed. And my back pain came from that. And it's in a weird place, and sometimes it acts up, but it's not severe enough that it bugs me from a day to day basis. But my dad, growing up with him, on the other hand, he eats ibuprofen like hand over fist just to get him through his day. And it's always been like that. And my whole family is super involved in athletics. That's why me and my crippling baloney with crps has been very challenging because we always have been an athletic family. And so my dad's back pain, even through it all, he's still trooped through. And that's one of the things that I learned from my dad about pushing through pain, right? But I'm tired of pushing through pain, right? We just end up getting used to it. We end up living with it, and some of us end up being afraid to be free from it. And I can speak to that from personal experience, because who am I without chronic pain? If it goes away, then what the hell am I going to bitch about, you know? And back pain can literally cripple you. So today we are going to deep dive into the structural integrity of our spine and healthy posture, and how with grace and strength, we can function much better in our lives and live longer and most definitely, marvelously. We have an 85% incidence of back pain, according to Esther Goklay So. I have the most wonderful back pain guest for you today, Esther Gokhale Hello, Darlene. >> Esther Gokhale: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's delightful to talk to you and to spread my word, because it's a hopeful word, it's an optimistic word. It's that we are designed better than we think we are. So we have very good news. You know, we really are designed, 98% of us, to operate extremely smoothly without pain, without major aches. It's not a, design problem, but a usage problem. We are born without a manual for use, and the culture hasn't educated us very well on how to use our body, how to sit, stand, bend, lift, lie, walk. Everyday things, the things we're doing 24/7 we're doing a little wrong because of fashions, because we've lost our kinesthetic thread of wisdom that our species had from time immemorial. You know, the way you are carried as a baby, for example, that is passed down nonverbally. It's not written anywhere. So when we transplant ourselves and go all over the planet, we lose that wisdom and we start making it up, and then we become subject to the fashions. And right now we're not in a good spot as an industrial society anyway. We have an 85% incidence of back pain. It's a rare person that isn't suffering. And then the interventions we use, statistically speaking, really don't work. Esther Goclay is the creator of the goclay method >> Lyndsay Soprano: Well, it's true. Before we keep going, can I introduce you? >> Esther Gokhale: That's loud. >> Lyndsay Soprano: You jumped right on in, and I didn't even get to tell anybody who you are. So let's introduce Esther for just a quick, hot minute here. So Esther Gokhale is the creator of the Gokhale method, a, breakthrough method in back pain relief. And she experienced crippling back pain during her first pregnancy, which she'll get into, and an unaccessible back surgery as well. And that's where her lifelong crusade kind of started to vanquish back pain. Right. And her approach has been inspired by aplomb, which is an anthropological approach that she'll talk about briefly as well. And her work is grounded in biophysics, anthropology from, let's see, Harvard, Princeton, San Francisco School of Oriental Medicine. And she has also studied in Brazil, in India, Portugal, Paris, and more. I mean, this woman has it all. So now I'm rolling out the red carpet for you, babe. You're the first one that's jumped in on me, so congratulations for that. Alexander's severe back pain started during his first pregnancy So let's talk about your severe back pain that started during your first pregnancy and how that really affected your life, and then let's take it from there. >> Esther Gokhale: I was nine months pregnant with my first child, and in the beginning, people were saying things like, maybe the baby's sitting on a nerve, and after the delivery it'll be better. And so it wasn't better. The baby was born, and it just kept getting worse. And I was trying all sorts of things. Conventional alternative, you name it, I tried it eventually, over a year, because things don't work very well for back pain is a major problem we're facing as a society. So physical therapy, acupuncture, chiropractic massage, me checking my head, stretching, strengthening, reiki yoga. I didn't want to do pain meds because I was nursing my baby. And so I just suffered. I would wake up in the middle of the night with severe spasm and then have to hobble around and walk around the block a couple of times to get out of spasm, and then I could go back to sleep again. Was unlivable. I couldn't carry my baby. I couldn't even carry a cooking pot, and I couldn't sleep. I mean, I would feel all these twinges, actually, more than twinges much of the time, like an ice pick sitting in your bum, radiating pain all the way down to your toes. Horrible. Not being able to carry your baby is not a trivial matter, you know. >> Lyndsay Soprano: No, it's heartbreaking. >> Esther Gokhale: Introduces all kinds of abandonment issues, and it's complex. And I'm not the only one who suffered like this. There are millions of people around the industrial world that, are at the very least, uncomfortable and sometimes in extreme pain from holding babies, birthing babies. We really have forgotten how to do these natural things. You know, our species is actually very well designed to carry babies and birth babies and nurse babies and. And do all the other things that life brings in front of us. But I was at a loss, and finally I gave up and did surgery. I didn't go into surgery lightly, but I was desperate. And surgery, did help for a period, but not completely. I had twinges, and you can imagine, I was doing all the recommended exercises very diligently, but after a year, I had the same l five s, one disc, re herniate, and now they were offering me another surgery, which, when you're in your mid twenties, is not encouraging, like multiple surgeries, destabilize your spine, then you might be headed for fusion surgery. The results are not good for that. So I was just casting a wider and wider net. And the things that resonated for me are the things that encourage you to change the way you use your body. I grew up in India, half indian, half Dutch, and my dutch mom was very enthralled by what the local poor, generally poor people in the villages were doing with their bodies. And even in the cities, like the people who carry large, loads of fruits and vegetables to sell, and they carry these loads all day. And the sweeper in our house who could clean our whole house on her haunches, which was very impressive to my mother. And she would point these things out to us, four kids. And that, you know, people think that what you say to your kids, they don't listen. But no, it lodges somewhere. >> Lyndsay Soprano: At least that's what we hope might come out 30 years later. >> Esther Gokhale: But anyway, because, you know, when the kid is in trouble, as I was, you know, in my mid twenties, I remembered those things. And the techniques that resonated for me were the techniques that encourage you to use your body differently. So there are a number of these, including Alexander technique and Feldenkrais a little bit. But the one that really gave me a lot was aplomb, which is a french technique. And I immersed myself in that, and I got convinced that we can learn how to live in our bodies differently by using as examples, these people who don't have so much pain. And so I went about studying the medical literature, traveling, and long story short, I came out of having pain completely. And I never needed that back, second back surgery. And I was able to have two more children without any incidence of pain. And I'm just so grateful that that worked out because, it was a big compromise in my life to have my pain dictate how many children I have, and have my pain dictate what activities I do and don't. And now it's been over 35 years. I've not had any pain, not an ache, not even a twinge in my back. And I'm pretty sure that I've avoided a host of other pains too. You know, I'm 63 now. And usually by this age, people who've had back surgery have accumulated a few other aches and pains in their necks or hips or knees. And I've had none of that. And I am stronger and fitter than I've ever been. And now I have the tremendous pleasure and privilege of teaching other people how to be well in their bodies. >> Lyndsay Soprano: And I love that because the part of the plum, like, not method per se, but what you were talking about earlier from Paris, it really, in researching it a little bit, it talks about self confidence and assurance within yourself as part of a fundamental part of your healing, which I found to be very interesting, coupled with your anthropological side. Because anthropology, whether you believe it or not, we are anthropological people, and our bodies have progressed over time. Whatever your belief system is, our bodies do progress, and they change over time. And as we are sitting here as a people, you and I right now, the listeners right now are 100%. You might be on a run or walking right now, but I feel like most of you are sitting in your car or you're sitting at your desk. And I know that sitting and our phones and our constant down looking and all of it, we're moving. It's almost like we're evolutionizing our bodies to go backwards. Soon enough, we're all going to be walking on our knuckles. Guys, like, come, on. >> Esther Gokhale: Luckily, luckily, we're not changing our structure. We're just damaging our extremely well designed structures, you know? So. >> Lyndsay Soprano: So how do we get away from this sitting mentality that we have? Because we all sit a lot, and how can we approach our care about that? >> Esther Gokhale: So, Lyndsay, it turns out that hunter gatherer societies sit as much as we do. They've used sensors on, like, the hadza, tribe in Africa, and it turns out they sit 9 hours a day on average, just like we do. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Shut up. >> Esther Gokhale: Surprise. >> Lyndsay Soprano: I am very surprised because we get shit about us all sitting all the time. >> Esther Gokhale: Totally. It's a sticky sound bite. All right. You know, sitting is the new smoking. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Blah. >> Esther Gokhale: Ah, blah, blah. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Right. >> Esther Gokhale: But actually, I think it's a very positive message that it's not sitting that's the problem. It's how we sit. >> Lyndsay Soprano: well, sure. >> Esther Gokhale: And also that we don't punctuate our sitting with healthy walking. Walking is the natural reset for the so as muscle, which, if you sit a long time, could get short. But if you walk right, that solves that problem. And if you sit right, you're not compressing your discs and your nerves and putting stress on the wrong parts of your vertebrae, inducing bone spores to form, et cetera, et cetera. If you sit well and, from time to time, get up and walk right, you're going to be in fine shape. >> Lyndsay Soprano: M because just sitting here with you, I'm like, my shoulders are back more just looking at you because you're sitting so perfectly. And I'm like, oh, my God. I don't sit like this. >> Esther Gokhale: So what I've done here is I've hooked myself to my backrest. Now, admittedly, I have changed it a little bit, but it doesn't take a lot to, do this technique we start people out with called stretch sitting. So instead of sitting there in a c shape blaming sitting and calling it the new smoking and whatever, we teach people that you can actually lengthen your back, hook your back to a little protrusion you can easily arrange on your backrest. And we provide a stretch sit cushion to make that even easier. And for people who want to be really into it, I've designed a chair. Given how much people sit, having a good chair is worthwhile I haven't designed many products, but given how much people sit and sometimes need to sit, having a good chair is worthwhile. So I went through the trouble going to Canada designing our chair, and it has little sticky nubs in the back. And you can actually see it here. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Oh, yeah. Like Sam. >> Esther Gokhale: Yeah. So they're sewn into the back, but you can also use a folded towel or something that has friction that's going to protrude out a little bit. And then you arrange to lengthen your back, and then you hook your back to the backrest like you're a picture hanging from a wall, is the way I like to describe it. >> Lyndsay Soprano: I like that visual. >> Esther Gokhale: And now your back is getting a stretch instead of sitting like a lump there. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Yeah. And then you're actively sitting instead of slumpingly sitting. >> Esther Gokhale: Yes, you are stretchingly sitting, and your back is getting traction as you sit. Now, some people go through all kinds of trouble to get traction because they have the right idea that traction would be good, but they hang upside down from implements and they go to someone's table and they get pulled on and they sell out several thousand dollars to get, like, ten sessions or. And you can do it so much more simply just hooking up against a backrest that has some friction in it. And now you're getting traction as you keyboard. So, it's a concept that should just be commonplace in the chair industry and in our society. Given that we do need to sit a lot, or in any case, we end up sitting a lot, we could be spending that time in traction. >> Lyndsay Soprano: It's so frustrating because, like, I don't know if you've been able to notice while you've been watching me, but I'm like, as you're talking, I'm like, maneuvering while you're saying what I'm trying to do. But us women in particular, I think one of the things that, I'll speak for myself is that when I'm trying to be in better posture, it feels like I'm trying to push my boobs out. Right. >> Esther Gokhale: That's how we are trained to do it. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Feels like, why are you standing like this? Are you trying to make, like, your boobies look better? I'm like, well, we're all trying to make our boobies look better. Like, come on. >> Esther Gokhale: And. >> Lyndsay Soprano: But. >> Esther Gokhale: But this is too much at the expense of our back. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Interesting, because you. I, mean, there's so many different things that are out there about what's better and what's not, and, and everything comes back to what your research has been. I mean, I've been, I've been, I've been watching you, because that primal posture, that primal posture that you and I have talked about, right where that's part of your method. So I know you've kind of been briefly talking about that with grace and strength that we have within ourselves to do this. So, can we talk a little bit specifically about your method? >> Esther Gokhale: Absolutely. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Okay. >> Esther Gokhale: I want to make a note about what women are encouraged to do, because more than men, the messaging to women about sitting up straight is particularly strong. And because we get it from the modeling industry, where you're supposed to show your boobies and your ass, and we get it from the sex industry. And even m more insidiously, things like women's gymnastics. If you think about how every women's gymnastics routine ends, it's a violent thrust of the chest out, and that's very damaging to the low back. If you remember Olga Corbute, who won several gold medals in the Olympics, within one year, she had had two back surgeries. And that's the part we don't hear about. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Yeah. >> Esther Gokhale: We, as women, are actually more encouraged to go down this garden path of so called good posture. That's actually very bad posture. Yeah. But back to my method. Anything you want to ask, I'm, game to tell. >> Lyndsay Soprano: So, part of your method is within. Is it within the cushions that you have, or can you. Let's just say we don't buy the chair. We don't buy. Can we do your method? Like, how does your method work? >> Esther Gokhale: You know, I just happened to have mentioned my chair because you commented on the way. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Esther Gokhale: But it's actually, it's m all, It's entirely about education. Few products that help a little bit of, but it's about educating oneself. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Okay. >> Esther Gokhale: Sit, stand, bend. You don't need anything to sit, stand, bend, lie. Better. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Yeah, because you mentioned in our meet and greet about it's life exercises. >> Esther Gokhale: That's it. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Right. Natural ways of standing and walking. Like, every step is a rep, I think, is what you said. >> Esther Gokhale: Exactly. >> Lyndsay Soprano: doing our movements deliberately and actually, not just, like, willy nilly leaning down to grab something, but being deliberate about our movement is actually strengthening. And when we think about that, I'm like, you know how they always say, like, when you're lifting things like, legs, legs. Use your legs. Use your legs instead of your back. >> Esther Gokhale: Right in the beginning, we do have to be deliberate because transitioning from other dysfunctional ways. But the aim is that we change our habit and then you don't have to put a lot of bandwidth because these ways are actually natural. It's the way kids move, it's the way our ancestors moved without deliberating on it. These are natural ways. But it's true for a transition period. We do have to understand it intellectually, recognize it visually and feel it kinesthetically to really have a gel and integrate into our bodies. So we use every channel we can to help the changes be more effective, more efficient, and hasten people towards this place where they're moving like we're meant to and not hurting. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Not hurting. Which should be actually my tagline for my show. We will hurt no more. >> Esther Gokhale: We will hurt no more. What are some common chronic pains that people face when working with you >> Lyndsay Soprano: Well, and, you know, a lot of what we talk about on this show, as my listeners know, is we talk about trauma a lot of, and how that affects our bodies. And as I always say on the show, the body keeps the score. It is legit. It is so legit. So when you're talking about the evolution of our bodies and our spine in particular, that have caused so much pain, when you are bringing people on to work with you, what are some of the chronic issues that you're faced with? Is it that pain or does it end up looking like back pain and then it ends up as something different? >> Esther Gokhale: Well, we have a, we see a host of pain types. You know, back pain is the most common, although I would say neck pain is vying for first place there. >> Lyndsay Soprano: You know, neck and neck. We got a gold and a silver here. Who's gonna win? >> Esther Gokhale: They're both a pain in the butt. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Yeah. >> Esther Gokhale: So, yes, in corporate America, lawyers, people who have a lot of stress, who are working, working with computer screens, often have some neck dysfunction, but it's also common to have knee problems and hip problems. I mean, if the nuts and bolts are misaligned, every joint in the weight bearing system gets offended and gets additional wear and tear and gets degenerated and inflamed. And so to bring peace to this system, our approach is about bringing all the nuts and bolts and pieces of our home. Home is where it's peaceful and, you know, we are made to have excursions away from home, but then we need to return to home as a baseline because that's where the circulation is good. That's where our, breathing is normal. That's where we, there are no more signals coming to the brain and peace is restored and we're available to life. >> Lyndsay Soprano: I like pieces restored because we go, and we go, and we go, and we go, and we go, and we go and go. And I am like, the number one. Everybody that knows me knows this about me. I go until I completely collapse and then I regenerate. And then I do it again. I regenerate it. I'm currently in the middle of this particular cycle, and I know that I'm in it and my back is hurting and my hips are hurting and my knees are hurting. And I know all of that because I am not doing the things that I know I need to be doing to take care of my body right now, because I am under a monumental amount of stress and emotion right now. And so with that came all of this other, like, pains that I'm like. I have never had a pain in this particular part of my body. >> Esther Gokhale: One of the things we like to help people with is such a profound understanding of the physical nuts and bolts in the body that no matter what level of stress you have, it does not translate into distortions that then cause these inflammations and pain. So that we. Yeah, it sounds a little too good to be true. I know, but it really is true. You know, if you know how to line things up, you're not as subject to these unconscious little tightenings and distortions and, you know, like we're aware of them. So, for example, you know, the neck might get tense, and that's going to arch your neck more. Your chin might rise up. It expresses your voice, goes higher in pitch and so on. But once you're aware of the physicality of this, which is where we have the strongest handle, you know, we can, we actually teach people to coax their neck m muscles to be relaxed and tall and long, and we can show people how. And then that relaxed physicality actually induces some emotional relaxation. So we're not just whipped around by our emotions, that we understand how our body needs to be well enough that we don't allow it to get into trouble at a physical level. You know, emotional things come and go, and they come in waves, and there are other approaches for that, you know, but which is not our main teaching, although it's an area of tremendous interest personally. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Yeah, and that's tremendous interest on this. >> Esther Gokhale: Show, I've been exploring very much the connection between posture and mental emotional health. And we know that it's there. We know it from observing animals. How do you tell if an animal is sad or as dog is happy or sad. It's through its posture. And we, as human animals, are not exempt from that connection. But we, in the gaucher method, we tend to teach the physical and allow our students to enjoy the emotional so we can teach the architect of confidence, of happiness, and then that seeps into our emotional landscape. You know, we know that from research, too. Like, if you stick a pencil between people's teeth and force a grimace, it elevates mood. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Shut up. >> Esther Gokhale: Seriously. >> Lyndsay Soprano: I'm a big smiler. Just generally speaking. But that is amazing. >> Esther Gokhale: It lifts you because the brain doesn't necessarily know how we're feeling, so it scouts around for signs. And if it finds that your mouth, is in a smile, it concludes that, oh, we must be happy. And that might sound flaky, but it isn't at all. It's just the way we function. And that's true for body architecture, too. If we arrange ourselves to have open upper body posture, for example, in a way that is intense and contrived, then it actually helps us feel more confident. It helps other people perceive us differently, but it also helps us be different. So, for example, there's a New Zealand study, 2017, and they flash images by people that provoke anxiety. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Oh, yes, I've seen this. >> Esther Gokhale: And the ones that have the closed upper body posture are very subject to getting anxious. But the ones that have more open upper body posture, it's harder to make them anxious, and it's also harder to be depressed when you have this open upper body posture. So we know about this connection between emotional mental health and our nuts and bolts architecture. And so we teach healthy, positive upright stance. And, you know, it's not our, we're not therapists, but we keep hearing from our students about how they're feeling more confident, how they have more energy, how people responded to them differently, how they feel more up to their tasks, not burdened by them and such. So it's a fun thing to observe, and it's a personal interest, strong interest. But we discipline ourselves to do what we're competent at, which is teach people the physical aspects of this, and we leave them alone to enjoy the other benefits. >> Lyndsay Soprano: I love that. And I love that you approach this as a student, as somebody that is being educated versus a client or a customer. I love that approach for this because it is about learning. Gokle Method is an education rather than an intervention for back pain and that's one of the things that is so incredibly important about this show, for me, is every single episode, I learn so many things that I mind boggled every day when I do this. Because it is unbelievable how much there is to learn. And everybody learns differently. So when people are interested in getting involved with you, how do they work with you? And do you work virtually with us? >> Esther Gokhale: Absolutely. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Right now, I'm already working virtually with you. She's been seeing me. I've been rolling my shoulders. I've been doing everything she's been doing because she sits so perfectly. I'm like, oh, my God, I want to be you. >> Esther Gokhale: You know, we are a monkey see, monkey do kind of species copy each other. It's true. And we use that phenomenon, when we show photographs in great abundance as we teach kids. Yeah, a photo is worth a thousand words sometimes. So people do we have free online workshops as well as in person workshops where we have teachers all around the world. And that's all described on our website, goclaymethod.com. and the next step we encourage people to do is to do a, consultation so that they can be informed in their next choice. You know, do they want to study online? Do they want to study in person with the teacher? Do they want a group class? Do they want one on one? Training depends on their motivation, depends on their goals, their resources. you know, you said, you pointed out how great this is, that it's an education rather than an intervention. And I fully agree with you. That's not so handy for insurance coverage, Mike. No, I see the united. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Okay, so never mind. >> Esther Gokhale: But, you know, for that reason, we try to keep our costs very pared down so people can afford. And because everybody needs this, really. And so we are happy to advise people. And, they have these free workshops and they can start there. And of course, I have my book, and that gives them a pretty good idea of what the underpinnings are. But it is a kinesthetic thing. It's like learning to play tennis or golf, and you wouldn't try that with a book exclusively. You really need a coach. And so that's what we offer. And my great focus is to train as many teachers as possible because we anticipate a huge surge in demand for this. We now have a randomized control trial that has just begun at Stanford. So the chief of physical medicine and rehab is the principal investigator in RCT randomized controlled trial, comparing Gokle method with physical therapy for back pain. And so my job is to pass it on as much as I can so people can really be available to life. Life is pretty delightful. >> Lyndsay Soprano: It is when you're not living in pain. >> Esther Gokhale: That's true, yeah. >> Lyndsay Soprano: And unfortunately, and fortunately, my audience lives in pain in whatever, man. Whatever, you know, kind of pain they're in, whether it's physical, mental, emotional, all of them combined. A lot of our listeners listen on behalf of others, which I love, especially the demographics for men. They listen for their wives, their sisters, their daughters, and they are emailing me about their women in their life, which is really awesome. So, guys, by the way, I've been meaning to throw a shout out to you because. Thank you for all of your emails, because you really have been helping the women in your life, and that's pretty unbelievable. So keep on listening. Keep on sharing. Sorry, that was a shameless plug, but it was a. It's a good one for them because I look at the demographics and I'm like, oh, my God. What we've gotten, we've increased men, which has been so incredible. because men are also in pain. As women, we're in it more, but we also talk about it more, and we're more expressive about it. We're more emotional about it. And I think men are starting to pick up on the fact that, ooh, geez Louise, you can actually be emotional men. You can actually talk about your feelings. You can also talk about your pain because you have to. And that's something that, you know, with, with this show, it's a tough show to do because you have to be wrong. You have to be open. You have to share things that you might be scared to share. But what I've created here for everybody, including yourself, is a place that's safe, that you can share what's happened to you and be positive about the outcomes that are going to come out of your life, you know, instead of getting drudged down by all the. Ugh. And all of the pain and the pills and the doctors and the surgeries and all of that, when there are so many better methods that we can go to approach our care than western medicine. For sure, it has its place. >> Esther Gokhale: Oh, it has. Most certainly does. Yes. You know, one message I have for people who have tried a lot of methods and are kind of fed up of the roller coaster of hope and then dashed hope and hope. It's like, just because, you know, dozens of things you've tried haven't worked doesn't mean the next one isn't going to. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Amen. >> Esther Gokhale: Always keep hope alive. Use your discernment, by all means, but don't give up hope. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Well, that is. That is the end of our episode all the time. We always end with a message of hope. So it's perfect timing. For us to hit the dusty trail here. Esther has a free ebook titled three surprising reasons you have back pain So I wanted to make sure that everybody knows. So this is wonderful woman. Esther. You have been incredible today, my darling. So she has a. Okay, so there's a couple of freebies. We're going to put these in show notes and in social, of course. But she has a free ebook titled three surprising reasons you have back pain. And she also has a free online workshop, which she mentioned earlier. Again, I'll put that into show notes is too long of a domain name to throw out at you right now. But even though she says, go, clay because that's how it's pronounced, it is g o k h a l e. That is how we spell it. She is on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, her website, TikTok. All of it spelled the same. Find her everywhere online. I appreciate your time so much with you. But also, she has a book, eight steps to a pain free back. She's sold over 300,000 copies plus, and it's been translated into ten languages. I hope it speaks one of my languages. Thank you so much for being here with us today. I really appreciate it. >> Esther Gokhale: You, Lyndsay, you're a marvelous hostess of this. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate that. >> Esther Gokhale: It's been a pleasure. >> Lyndsay Soprano: Thank you. You are exclusively invited to share this posture positive, uplifting vip pain journey together. Let's get to the heart of how to heal with you by my side. Please follow the pain game podcast. Wherever you digest your podcast content, we will be there. If you have any questions for me or Esther, please reach out to either of us on social by email. We got you. Visit us@thepayingamepodcast.com and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening, my little vip's. Catch you on the other side. >> Esther Gokhale: The.