Latest / Stoic Life Guided / Master the Gap: Stoic Rules to Become Unmanipulable Now
Transcript
- 0:03Speaker 1: There is a moment, most people miss it completely. That
- 0:07Speaker 1: happens between the time someone says something cruel to you
- 0:11Speaker 1: and the time you feel the pain. It lasts less
- 0:14Speaker 1: than a second. And inside that gap, without knowing it,
- 0:18Speaker 1: you make a choice. This story is about that gap
- 0:23Speaker 1: and what the Stoics understood about it that most of
- 0:25Speaker 1: us still don't. When I first sat with the idea
- 0:28Speaker 1: that every emotional reaction passes through a door you can
- 0:32Speaker 1: learn to control, I had to stop and think it
- 0:35Speaker 1: through twice. Because if it's true, and the evidence from 2,000
- 0:39Speaker 1: years of practice suggests it is, point. Then the thing
- 0:44Speaker 1: you've been blaming the world for is something you've been
- 0:47Speaker 1: handing over voluntarily. Marcus Aurelius ruled the most powerful empire
- 0:52Speaker 1: on Earth. He commanded armies, decided the fate of millions,
- 0:56Speaker 1: and held authority that no single person alive today comes
- 1:01Speaker 1: close to. And yet the one thing he wrote about obsessively,
- 1:04Speaker 1: not military strategy, not statecraft, not power, was the discipline
- 1:10Speaker 1: of his own mind. His private journal, what we now
- 1:13Speaker 1: call The Meditations, was never meant to be published. He
- 1:18Speaker 1: was writing instructions to himself, reminders, corrections. Because even as emperor,
- 1:24Speaker 1: he kept finding that his own reactions were the hardest
- 1:27Speaker 1: thing to govern. That detail matters, not because it's inspiring,
- 1:32Speaker 1: in a general way, but because of what it implies.
- 1:35Speaker 1: If the man with more external power than anyone on
- 1:38Speaker 1: Earth still struggled to control his internal responses, then the
- 1:42Speaker 1: problem was never about what you have or who you are.
- 1:47Speaker 1: The problem is structural. It lives in the gap between
- 1:51Speaker 1: what happens to you and how you respond. Imagine someone
- 1:55Speaker 1: says something dismissive to you at work, a comment that
- 1:58Speaker 1: lands wrong, Your jaw tightens. There's a heat that moves
- 2:02Speaker 1: up through your chest. Your first instinct is to react,
- 2:06Speaker 1: defend yourself, go quiet and stew or replay the moment
- 2:11Speaker 1: for the next three hours. Most people would react by
- 2:14Speaker 1: choosing one of those three and they would call that
- 2:17Speaker 1: a natural response because it feels automatic. It feels like
- 2:22Speaker 1: it happened to them, not like something they did. But
- 2:25Speaker 1: here's the problem with that response. The moment you treat
- 2:28Speaker 1: your reaction as automatic, you've handed the controls to whoever
- 2:32Speaker 1: is in front of you. You've made their words the
- 2:35Speaker 1: operating system of your afternoon, possibly your week. Epictetus saw
- 2:40Speaker 1: this clearly, and he named the thing that makes it
- 2:43Speaker 1: possible to resist it. He called it Prohaeresis, the faculty
- 2:48Speaker 1: of choice, the capacity to decide what you do with
- 2:51Speaker 1: what arrives. Epictetus himself was a slave. He had no property.
- 2:57Speaker 1: No legal rights. No physical freedom. And he argued that
- 3:01Speaker 1: even in that condition, O'Hara'sus remained entirely his. No one
- 3:06Speaker 1: could take it without his cooperation. That's not a motivational slogan.
- 3:11Speaker 1: That's a structural claim about human psychology. Between stimulus and response,
- 3:17Speaker 1: there is a space. What you do in that space
- 3:20Speaker 1: determines everything. The Stoics identified something else happening alongside that
- 3:25Speaker 1: gap something more uncomfortable, they noticed that most suffering is
- 3:31Speaker 1: not the event itself. It is the story we attach
- 3:34Speaker 1: to the event. The comment at work doesn't last. The
- 3:38Speaker 1: heat in your chest, the replaying, the injured pride, that
- 3:42Speaker 1: continues because you keep manufacturing it. Pain arrives. Suffering is
- 3:48Speaker 1: what you build on top of it. Marcus Aurelius put
- 3:51Speaker 1: it plainly. You have power over your mind. Not outside events.
- 3:56Speaker 1: Realize this and you will find strength. Not realize this
- 4:00Speaker 1: and feel better. Realize this and find strength. The language
- 4:04Speaker 1: is deliberate. Strength implies that the realization is difficult. That
- 4:09Speaker 1: it costs something. That it runs against a very old instinct.
- 4:13Speaker 1: That instinct is the entry point for manipulation. And this
- 4:17Speaker 1: is where the stakes become concrete. Because what the Stoics
- 4:21Speaker 1: were describing wasn't just philosophy. It was a map of
- 4:25Speaker 1: every psychological lever that another person can use against you. Urgency, fear,
- 4:31Speaker 1: the need for approval, attachment to outcomes you can't control.
- 4:35Speaker 1: Every one of those is a gap in the armor.
- 4:39Speaker 1: Every one of them is a door that stays open
- 4:42Speaker 1: when you haven't examined what you actually value and why.
- 4:47Speaker 1: Seneca wrote about the man who has never thought seriously
- 4:50Speaker 1: about what he fears. That man, Seneca argued, is perpetually
- 4:55Speaker 1: available to be controlled by whoever figures out his fear first.
- 5:00Speaker 1: There are eight specific practices the Stoics developed to close
- 5:04Speaker 1: those doors. Not eight ideas to agree with. Eight disciplines
- 5:11Speaker 1: to build. The first one starts with that gap, that
- 5:15Speaker 1: fraction of a second between the insult in the air
- 5:18Speaker 1: and the moment you decide what it means, and the
- 5:21Speaker 1: decision you make there turns out to be the foundation
- 5:24Speaker 1: of everything else. Here is where the Eight Laws stop
- 5:27Speaker 1: being philosophy and start being architecture. Each one closes a
- 5:32Speaker 1: specific door that manipulation requires to stay open, and the
- 5:37Speaker 1: first door is the most important one. Epictetus called it Prohaeresis.
- 5:42Speaker 1: He was a former slave, which means he understood something
- 5:46Speaker 1: about having your body controlled that most philosophers never had to.
- 5:51Speaker 1: What he discovered was that even in chains, one thing
- 5:54Speaker 1: remained entirely his, the faculty of choosing how to interpret
- 5:59Speaker 1: what happened to him. Proheresis is not willpower. It is
- 6:04Speaker 1: not positive thinking. It is the recognition that between any
- 6:07Speaker 1: event and your response, there is a gap, and that
- 6:11Speaker 1: gap is yours. No one can enter it without your permission.
- 6:16Speaker 1: Most people live as if that gap does not exist.
- 6:19Speaker 1: Someone says something cutting and the hurt arrives so fast
- 6:22Speaker 1: it feels automatic. And that speed is exactly what manipulation
- 6:26Speaker 1: depends on. The faster your reaction, the less you're choosing it.
- 6:31Speaker 1: The second law is detachment. And this is where most
- 6:34Speaker 1: people get it wrong. Detachment does not mean you stop caring.
- 6:38Speaker 1: That logic feels right until you look closer. A parent
- 6:42Speaker 1: who practices detachment does not stop loving their child. A
- 6:46Speaker 1: friend who practices detachment does not become cold. What detachment
- 6:51Speaker 1: actually means is that you care fully while releasing your
- 6:54Speaker 1: grip on how things turn out. You invest without making
- 6:57Speaker 1: the outcome a condition of your peace. The head fake
- 7:00Speaker 1: hidden in this law is that people assume detachment makes
- 7:04Speaker 1: you less engaged. It makes you more stable, which means
- 7:08Speaker 1: more effective, not less present. The third law is self-knowledge,
- 7:14Speaker 1: and it is the most privately demanding of the eight.
- 7:17Speaker 1: Marcus Aurelius, an emperor with armies and advisors and the
- 7:21Speaker 1: weight of Rome on his decisions, kept a journal that
- 7:25Speaker 1: was never meant to be read by anyone. The Meditations
- 7:29Speaker 1: was not written for posterity. It was a man questioning
- 7:33Speaker 1: himself every day. Where did I fail? Where did I deflect?
- 7:37Speaker 1: Where did I act from fear instead of from principle?
- 7:40Speaker 1: He knew that without rigorous self-examination, authority, any authority over
- 7:45Speaker 1: others or over circumstance, corrodes from within. Self-knowledge is not comfortable.
- 7:52Speaker 1: It is the practice of catching yourself before the world
- 7:55Speaker 1: catches you, and this is where the dopamine cycle of
- 7:58Speaker 1: manipulation loses its grip. Manipulation works by finding the gap
- 8:03Speaker 1: between who you think you are and who you actually are.
- 8:07Speaker 1: The person who has done the internal work has closed
- 8:09Speaker 1: that gap, not perfectly, but enough to notice when something
- 8:14Speaker 1: is pulling at an unexamined fear. The fourth law is equanimity,
- 8:19Speaker 1: not calmness as a mood, but calmness as a structural condition.
- 8:24Speaker 1: The image Marcus Aurelius returned to was a lake. Storms
- 8:28Speaker 1: pass over the surface. Waves form and break. But the
- 8:33Speaker 1: depth does not move. Equanimity is not the absence of
- 8:37Speaker 1: the storm. It is the depth that the storm cannot reach.
- 8:42Speaker 1: Most people would describe this as emotional suppression. But here
- 8:46Speaker 1: is the problem with that response. Suppression requires you to
- 8:50Speaker 1: feel the thing and then push it down. Equanimity requires
- 8:54Speaker 1: something harder. It requires you to see the feeling clearly,
- 8:59Speaker 1: name it accurately, and refuse to let it govern what
- 9:02Speaker 1: you do next. You feel the anger. You do not
- 9:06Speaker 1: become the anger. The fifth law is acceptance. And Seneca
- 9:10Speaker 1: drew the sharpest line around what it means. He wrote
- 9:14Speaker 1: that the man who anticipates troubles takes away their power
- 9:18Speaker 1: when they arrive. This is not resignation. Acceptance in the
- 9:23Speaker 1: Stoic framework means recognizing what is already true and working
- 9:28Speaker 1: from there. The person who cannot accept reality is permanently
- 9:32Speaker 1: available for manipulation because anyone who offers them an escape
- 9:36Speaker 1: from that reality holds enormous power over them. Every get-rich-quick
- 9:42Speaker 1: scheme every cult, every relationship built on false hope exploits
- 9:48Speaker 1: one thing, the refusal to accept what is. Marcus Aurelius
- 9:52Speaker 1: framed it precisely. Accept whatever comes to you woven in
- 9:56Speaker 1: the pattern of your destiny for what could more aptly
- 9:59Speaker 1: fit your needs that is not passive. It is a
- 10:03Speaker 1: decision to operate from truth rather than from the story
- 10:07Speaker 1: you wish were true. The sixth law is where the
- 10:10Speaker 1: Stoics made their most counterintuitive move. They called it premeditatio malorum,
- 10:16Speaker 1: the deliberate visualization of negative outcomes. Every morning, or at
- 10:20Speaker 1: the start of any significant endeavor, you imagine what could
- 10:23Speaker 1: go wrong, not obsessively, not to paralyze yourself, but specifically
- 10:29Speaker 1: enough that when difficulty arrives, it does not arrive as
- 10:33Speaker 1: a shock. Seneca described it directly. The man who has
- 10:37Speaker 1: anticipated the coming of troubles takes away their power when
- 10:41Speaker 1: they arrive. Surprise is the primary amplifier of fear. When
- 10:45Speaker 1: the worst case has already been examined in calm conditions,
- 10:49Speaker 1: Its power to destabilize you in real conditions is reduced.
- 10:54Speaker 1: This is practical, not pessimistic. You are not predicting failure.
- 11:00Speaker 1: You are refusing to let failure catch you off guard.
- 11:04Speaker 1: Apply this to manipulation. The person who has already imagined
- 11:08Speaker 1: losing the job is harder to threaten with the job.
- 11:12Speaker 1: The person who has already sat with the possibility of
- 11:14Speaker 1: being disliked is harder to control through social pressure. Permeditatio
- 11:19Speaker 1: does not make you fearless. It makes your fears smaller
- 11:22Speaker 1: in proportion to reality. The seventh law is integrity. The
- 11:26Speaker 1: alignment between what you value and what you actually do.
- 11:30Speaker 1: Marcus Aurelius wrote it without sentiment. Waste no more time
- 11:34Speaker 1: arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.
- 11:38Speaker 1: Manipulation requires inconsistency. It looks for the places where your
- 11:43Speaker 1: actions do not match your stated values. Because those gaps
- 11:47Speaker 1: are levers. A person whose behavior is consistent with their
- 11:50Speaker 1: principles gives manipulation nothing to grip. This is not about
- 11:55Speaker 1: being perfect. It is about the direction of effort. Every
- 11:59Speaker 1: time you act in alignment with what you actually believe,
- 12:02Speaker 1: you reduce the surface area available to those who would
- 12:05Speaker 1: exploit the distance between who you say you are and
- 12:08Speaker 1: what you do. The eighth law is autarkia. self-sufficiency, and
- 12:13Speaker 1: this is the one that makes the others sustainable. Autarkia
- 12:17Speaker 1: does not mean isolation. It does not mean refusing help
- 12:21Speaker 1: or cutting yourself off from community. What it means is
- 12:25Speaker 1: that your fundamental sense of stability does not depend on
- 12:29Speaker 1: any single external source, not one person's approval, not one job,
- 12:36Speaker 1: not one outcome. Seneca wrote that a gem cannot be
- 12:39Speaker 1: polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials. The
- 12:44Speaker 1: person who has learned to generate their own grounding through practice,
- 12:48Speaker 1: through values, through the prior seven laws, is not easily destabilized.
- 12:54Speaker 1: And a person who is not easily destabilized is not
- 12:57Speaker 1: easily manipulated. The mechanism is simple. Manipulation requires leverage, and
- 13:03Speaker 1: leverage requires dependency. These eight laws do not promise immunity
- 13:08Speaker 1: from difficulty. They promise something more durable, a stable orientation
- 13:13Speaker 1: that does not collapse when the pressure arrives. Apply even
- 13:16Speaker 1: two or three of them consistently and you will notice
- 13:19Speaker 1: the difference. Here is the concrete practice. Pick one law
- 13:24Speaker 1: this week, not all eight. One. Write it at the
- 13:28Speaker 1: top of a page and name three situations in your
- 13:31Speaker 1: current life where that law is being tested. Then, for
- 13:35Speaker 1: each situation, write the one action you would take if
- 13:39Speaker 1: that law were fully operative in you. You are not
- 13:42Speaker 1: trying to achieve the law. You are practicing the direction.
- 13:46Speaker 1: That is how the Stoics worked, not through epiphany, through daily, specific,
- 13:52Speaker 1: unglamorous repetition. There are two objections that come up every
- 13:56Speaker 1: time these laws are discussed, and both of them deserve
- 14:00Speaker 1: a direct answer. The first is this. This, this sounds
- 14:04Speaker 1: good in a podcast, but it is not realistic when
- 14:07Speaker 1: you are in the middle of a situation. Your first
- 14:10Speaker 1: instinct is to say that philosophy is for calm moments,
- 14:14Speaker 1: not for the moment your jaw tightens and your chest
- 14:17Speaker 1: narrows and someone is pushing on exactly the right nerve.
- 14:21Speaker 1: That objection is not wrong. It is also the point
- 14:25Speaker 1: the Stoics never claimed. These practices perform automatically. What they
- 14:30Speaker 1: claimed is that prior practice changes the conditions of the
- 14:34Speaker 1: difficult moment. When you have run premeditatio regularly, the difficult
- 14:39Speaker 1: moment is not new territory. You have been there, in quiet.
- 14:44Speaker 1: The response does not require you to construct it from
- 14:47Speaker 1: scratch because you have already laid the structure. The practice
- 14:51Speaker 1: is not for the crisis. The practice is for before
- 14:54Speaker 1: the crisis, so that when the crisis arrives, you are
- 14:58Speaker 1: not meeting it as a stranger. The second objection is harder.
- 15:02Speaker 1: It sounds like this. Accepting what I cannot control means
- 15:07Speaker 1: accepting injustice, If I stop resisting the things I cannot change,
- 15:12Speaker 1: I become complicit in them. This is the most important
- 15:16Speaker 1: clarification in the entire Stoic framework, and Marcus Aurelius addressed
- 15:20Speaker 1: it directly. Acceptance is not approval. The Stoic clause of reservation,
- 15:25Speaker 1: sometimes called the reserve clause, states that you act fully
- 15:30Speaker 1: toward a goal, while holding in mind that the outcome
- 15:34Speaker 1: is not guaranteed. You write the letter. You make the case.
- 15:38Speaker 1: You show up. and you do not collapse if the
- 15:40Speaker 1: outcome is not what you wanted, because the outcome was
- 15:43Speaker 1: never within your control. Your effort was, your integrity was,
- 15:48Speaker 1: your decision about how to respond was. The Stoics did
- 15:52Speaker 1: not teach withdrawal from the world. Marcus Aurelius ruled Rome
- 15:56Speaker 1: for 19 years. Seneca advised emperors. Epictetus taught hundreds of students.
- 16:03Speaker 1: What they practiced was full engagement with the world without
- 16:06Speaker 1: giving the world the power to determine their inner condition,
- 16:10Speaker 1: the distinction is this. Equanimity is not what you feel.
- 16:15Speaker 1: It is what you do not let dictate what you do.
- 16:18Speaker 1: Autarkia is not isolation. It is the refusal to let
- 16:22Speaker 1: your stability depend on a single external source. Disapego is
- 16:27Speaker 1: not coldness. It is care without ransom. One more clarification.
- 16:31Speaker 1: Because it matters for daily life. These laws are not
- 16:34Speaker 1: sequential steps where you must complete one before the next applies.
- 16:39Speaker 1: They are simultaneous orientations. You can practice self-knowledge today while
- 16:45Speaker 1: still working on acceptance. You can build autarkia while still
- 16:50Speaker 1: deeply connected to the people you love. They are not
- 16:53Speaker 1: a ladder. They are a posture, a way of standing
- 16:57Speaker 1: in relation to everything that reaches you from outside. And
- 17:03Speaker 1: the manipulator, the person or system that tries to use
- 17:07Speaker 1: your fears and your needs against you, requires you to
- 17:11Speaker 1: stand in the opposite posture. Reactive, unexamined, dependent, and caught
- 17:17Speaker 1: off guard. The Eight Laws are not a defense mechanism
- 17:21Speaker 1: in the anxious sense. They are the removal of the
- 17:23Speaker 1: conditions that make manipulation possible in the first place. Marcus
- 17:28Speaker 1: Aurelius put it this way, you have power over your mind.
- 17:32Speaker 1: not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength,
- 17:37Speaker 1: not comfort. Strength. There is a difference. Comfort depends on circumstances.
- 17:45Speaker 1: Strength does not. Here is the part that tends to
- 17:48Speaker 1: get missed. The Eight Laws are not a checklist you
- 17:52Speaker 1: complete once and file away. They are a daily orientation.
- 17:57Speaker 1: And orientation matters because the pressure to abandon it never
- 18:00Speaker 1: fully stops. Think about what the laws actually close off,
- 18:05Speaker 1: taken together. Proheresis means you reserve the right to choose
- 18:08Speaker 1: your interpretation. Detachment means no one can weaponize your need
- 18:13Speaker 1: for a specific outcome. Self-knowledge means you can see the
- 18:16Speaker 1: moment a manipulation begins because you already know your own
- 18:20Speaker 1: fault lines. Equanimity means your surface stays stable even when
- 18:24Speaker 1: the pressure spikes. Acceptance means difficulty loses its power to
- 18:28Speaker 1: paralyze you. Premeditatio malorum means nothing catches you completely off guard.
- 18:34Speaker 1: Integrity means your behavior does not split from your values
- 18:38Speaker 1: under pressure. And autarkia means you are not so hungry
- 18:43Speaker 1: for external validation that someone can use that hunger as
- 18:46Speaker 1: a handle. Every single one of those closes a door.
- 18:50Speaker 1: Not by making you cold. By making you grounded. The
- 18:54Speaker 1: second warmth moment belongs here, honestly. When the laws line
- 18:58Speaker 1: up like that, one after another, the architecture becomes visible.
- 19:04Speaker 1: What struck me reading through all eight was not how
- 19:08Speaker 1: difficult they are. It was how precisely each one addresses
- 19:11Speaker 1: a specific kind of vulnerability. They were not assembled randomly. Someone,
- 19:17Speaker 1: several someones, over centuries, looked hard at how human beings
- 19:22Speaker 1: get pulled off course and built something that answers it
- 19:25Speaker 1: point by point. That is not philosophy as decoration. That
- 19:30Speaker 1: is Philosophy is engineering. Marcus Aurelius called his own writing
- 19:36Speaker 1: a private effort at self-correction. He was the most powerful
- 19:40Speaker 1: man in the Roman world, and he still needed daily
- 19:43Speaker 1: reminders not to be governed by what other people thought
- 19:47Speaker 1: of him. He still wrote it down. He still had
- 19:50Speaker 1: to name the struggle before he could manage it. That
- 19:53Speaker 1: is the most honest thing about the Stoic tradition. It
- 19:56Speaker 1: never claimed the work gets easy. It claimed the work
- 19:59Speaker 1: gets worthwhile. Seneca put it plainly, a gem cannot be
- 20:03Speaker 1: polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials. The
- 20:08Speaker 1: friction is not the problem. The friction is the process.
- 20:13Speaker 1: And that reframes the whole episode. Every moment of manipulation.
- 20:18Speaker 1: Every moment when someone tried to use your fear or
- 20:22Speaker 1: your need or your uncertainty against you. Those were not
- 20:26Speaker 1: interruptions of your development. They were the friction. The question
- 20:31Speaker 1: was never whether the pressure would come. The question was
- 20:34Speaker 1: always whether you had something stable to press back against.
- 20:37Speaker 1: The eight laws practiced together become that stability. Not armor.
- 20:43Speaker 1: Not distance. Stability. There is an image that keeps coming back.
- 20:49Speaker 1: A lake in the middle of a storm. The storm
- 20:51Speaker 1: is real. Wind across the surface. Waves. Noise. Spray. No
- 20:59Speaker 1: one is pretending the storm is not there. But underneath
- 21:02Speaker 1: the surface disturbance, the water is still. Deep. Cold. The
- 21:09Speaker 1: storm cannot reach that depth. It can only work on
- 21:13Speaker 1: what is exposed. That is what the Stoics were building toward.
- 21:18Speaker 1: Not the absence of storms, the depth that makes them bearable. Epictetus,
- 21:23Speaker 1: who was once a slave and had every external freedom
- 21:26Speaker 1: stripped away, still held the one thing no one could reach,
- 21:30Speaker 1: his prohaeresis, his faculty of choice, the choice of how
- 21:34Speaker 1: to interpret what was happening. the choice of what meaning
- 21:38Speaker 1: to assign, the choice of who to be inside conditions,
- 21:42Speaker 1: he could not change. He did not pretend those conditions
- 21:45Speaker 1: were good. He simply refused to let them be the
- 21:48Speaker 1: last word on who he was. That is not resignation.
- 21:52Speaker 1: That is the sharpest form of resistance available, Marcus Aurelius wrote.
- 21:56Speaker 1: You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this,
- 22:02Speaker 1: and you will find strength. He wrote it to himself repeatedly,
- 22:06Speaker 1: In private, when he was leading armies and governing an
- 22:09Speaker 1: empire and losing people he loved, he wrote it because
- 22:13Speaker 1: he needed it. And the fact that he needed it
- 22:15Speaker 1: after everything he had learned is what makes it real.
- 22:19Speaker 1: The laws do not make you invincible. They make you
- 22:22Speaker 1: honest about where your actual power lives. So the practice
- 22:25Speaker 1: is this. At the end of any day when you
- 22:28Speaker 1: felt pulled, pressured, manipulated, or simply reactive, pause. Pause. Ask
- 22:35Speaker 1: one question. Which of the eight did I forget today?
- 22:39Speaker 1: Not to punish yourself. To locate the door that was
- 22:42Speaker 1: left open. Then name what you would do differently. In
- 22:47Speaker 1: one sentence tomorrow, that is the whole of it. Choose
- 22:51Speaker 1: your interpretation. Care without clinging. Know your fault lines. Keep
- 22:56Speaker 1: your surface calm. Accept what arrives. Anticipate difficulty. Let your
- 23:02Speaker 1: actions match your values. Need less from the outside. The
- 23:06Speaker 1: lake stays deep, even when the surface runs wild. That
- 23:11Speaker 1: is not a metaphor. That is a direction. This show
- 23:15Speaker 1: is made by UboMedia.