Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / EP 2: Warwick Schiller Founder Journey On Podcast & Attuned Horsemanship

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EP 2: Warwick Schiller Founder Journey On Podcast & Attuned Horsemanship · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

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  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who
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  have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they
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  got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them.
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  How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success,
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  and most importantly, find joy.
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  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
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  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
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  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
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  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
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  On this, podcast for live free, ride free, I have a legend.
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  I have Warwick Shiller, um, for those of you who know him, , he doesn't need
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  much introduction, but for those of you who don't yet know him, where you
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  should and you will now Warwick, , with his attuned horsemanship, , Started
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  an online library after video library after, , enormous success, , as a
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  Rainer and trainer, including going to the world, equestrian games.
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  He's Australian and so on.
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  His video library on, , on horse training has a bazillion people
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  constantly downloading it and so on.
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  However, that's really in some ways the least of his talents.
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  , not to denigrate that at all.
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  , warwick's an extraordinary human, and you're gonna see this as we go,
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  , through, and our conversation, I warn you, is gonna go quite far from horses.
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  it might circle back to horses from time to time, but, Warwick, I think
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  like many people who have achieved a sort of, a certain level of success,
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  within the horse training world, has arrived at that point where he has
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  to ask himself, well, well, what now?
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  , is that it?
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  And what he's done with that question is highly, highly, highly
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  unusual and basically helping to make the world a better place.
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  so Warwick Schiller, the man, the legend, the explorer of Human
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  consciousness and other consciousnesses.
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  Hello and thank you for coming on.
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  Warwick Schiller: Hey, it's an honor to be here with you, Rupert.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Those, those of you who might have listened to Warwick
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  Shiller's amazing podcast called Journey.
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  , which again has about a bazillion people listening to it every minute.
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  , might recall that he, , interviewed me, , a couple of years ago.
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  And, , in the first time we tried it, the conversation went
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  to shamanism rather quickly.
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  And, , the equipment shut down, which is, and works like, ah, I
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  can't understand what's going on.
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  And I'm like, yeah, actually this is not atypical.
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  , so I warn you guys, , something like that could happen if there's silence.
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  , suddenly we'll have to , restart because sometimes when you go into the
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  shamanic, electronic equipment, tends to malfunction shut down, do funny things.
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  anyone who has worked in the indigenous world around, healing ceremonies has
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  had and tried to record them or or film them, has had this experience.
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  Just before we jump in with Warwick, I mean, remember that the main theme of live
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  free, ride free is self-actualization, is people who have, manage to live
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  life on their terms, in a way that helps humanity move forward in some sort of way.
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  And as you know, on this show, we don't really care whether you do
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  that with horses, balloons, bicycles, elephants, or playing armpit orchestra.
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  The important thing.
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  Is that you do it.
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  So, Warwick has come in through horses.
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  He's still with horses.
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  But his life story and where he's going with it now is, is
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  really quite extraordinary.
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  So Warwick, tell us about you.
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  Who is
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  Warwick Schiller: Warwick schiller . . I'm very deep in trying to figure
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  that out right now for myself.
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  I, I had an idea of who I thought I was for quite a long
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  time and now I'm not so sure.
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  Who were you?
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  well, short version was I grew up on a farm in Australia.
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  Rode horses a lot as a kid.
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  got, we, we, we showed quarter horses, you know, so we showed Western stuff.
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  And I was a kid.
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  I grew up riding in Pony Club.
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  I started riding in pony club and, always had a fascination
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  about the western lifestyle.
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  You know, the, the horses, you know, the way the horses were in the
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  western part of the United States.
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  And, , I actually, when I was a teenager, I used to have this as the
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  Australian Quarter Horse Association.
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  Used to have this youth World Cup team and they would, every year there would
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  be America, Canada, Germany, Italy, Hmm.
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  New Zealand, Australia, and maybe one other European, oh, England
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  would have this youth World Cup team.
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  And , that's something I wanted to do because the year I was gonna
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  try out for it, it was gonna be in the United States and I was just
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  fascinated by the United States.
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  And so I went to the qualifying show.
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  Speed everybody there and still didn't get picked on the team and
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  was a little bit bitter about that.
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  But I always, you know, wanted to go to America and learn
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  about the horse stuff here.
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  And so eventually I end up, when I left school, I worked in a bank,
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  but at the time they could, they would give you, they would give
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  you a, a year's leave without pay.
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  So you still have a job when you come back.
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  But if you were young and wanted to travel or whatever, they would, you know, it
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  was a nationwide banking company bank.
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  And so I took a years leave without pay, came to the US in the end of 1990.
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  So I was here for most in 91.
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  And , when I was leaving to go back to Australia, sorry, I got
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  a job working for horse trainer.
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  And , when I was leaving to go back to Australia, after about a year,
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  we shook hands on the veranda and he said, , you know, if you wanna
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  come back, I'll give you a job.
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  He said, , you could do this for a living if you wanted to.
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  And I'd never had any self-confidence at all.
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  Like, pretty much none whatsoever.
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  And so for him, you know, the only reason I actually came back was
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  because he told me you could do this for a living if you wanted to.
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  I never would have told myself you could do this for a living if you wanted to.
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  , so it was, it was meeting, it was him saying that.
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  And I'd met my wife Robin, who, you know, , I had met her in the
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  meantime and I'd chased her all years.
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  She ran like a scolded cat.
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  And, , when I moved back to Australia, you know, Her, we didn't
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  have the internet at the time.
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  So when we moved back, I moved back to Australia.
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  Her letters to me became a lot nicer.
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  She actually missed me chasing her.
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  And so there was that and the offer of a, a job.
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  So I ended up, I was spent, I was home for six months and
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  then came back six months later.
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  Rupert Isaacson: I've got a couple of questions.
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  So you grew up in a farm in Australia and to a lot of people
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  that wouldn't be so very different to the lifestyle of the western.
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  USA given that Australia's a a big place, lots of land, lots of freedom, a
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  fairly expansive, optimistic worldview, , very much a horse based culture
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  ranching, you know, working horses are very much part of the culture there.
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  Why not stay within the Australian motif?
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  Why
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  Warwick Schiller: the western motif?
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  You know?
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  Well, that's a really good question.
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  , my father, my father was a rodeo writer, so he wrote in rodeos, , did
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  all the events, and we were always around that west and stuff.
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  We weren't, you know, we weren't around a bunch of show jumpers
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  or dressage people or whatever.
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  So I think that was, you know, something that got ingrained in me early on, the
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  fascination for that sort of thing.
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  So it was an idea
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  Rupert Isaacson: to go to thesource of the style of horsemanship that you were
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  Warwick Schiller: immersed?
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  Yeah, and I think so.
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  And, and, and, you know, all the crucial monster come along with it, you know, the
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  how they dress and all that sort of stuff.
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  I,
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  Rupert Isaacson: I But that's, you've got that and you've got that with the aie.
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  Fascinating.
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  You guys have the Crocodile Dundee hats and you've got the accent and you've
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  got the swagger and you've got the, so I mean, you could, to the outside eye, you
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  could sort of exchange one for the other.
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  So what made, the Australian one not so cool just because it was known
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  to you and therefore not exotic?
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  Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I, I, it could be that I, I really have no
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  idea and I've never really given that much thought, why it was that.
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  But I, I was always fascinated, maybe it was watching Western
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  movies on tv, you know, as a kid.
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  Yeah,
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  Rupert Isaacson: I could see that.
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  , and then my second question there is, you talked about having almost
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  no self-confidence, but you said that very quickly after talking about an
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  initial, quite a lot of show success.
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  So if you'd add all this show success with horses, quite early in your
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  life, why the lack of self-confidence?
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  Where did that come from?
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  Warwick Schiller: I didn't, well, as a, you know, we showed horses
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  as, as kids, and I had my older brother, he had all the show success.
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  He won everything.
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  You know, he was the, the whoop to do and yeah, I wasn't, I mean, I
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  wasn't, wasn't Did you kill him?
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  He's still around.
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  He's still, he's still around you.
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  He's still around.
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  Yeah, no.
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  And you know, I don't think I was, I'm, I, yeah, I did say that I won
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  all the stuff at the qualify show or whatever, and I was okay, but not, no,
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  I I wasn't a standout by any means, you know, I had a good horse that
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  year, which is really, really helpful.
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  But, you know, yeah, hadn't, didn't really have much self, self-confidence
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  about myself in any way, shape or form.
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  Sir, would you say that deep
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  Rupert Isaacson: down on some intuitive level that you did, because after
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  all, you, you didn't stay working in the bank, you took a chance to
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  go to the US to give it a, a go.
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  , so there was a, a must have been a part of you that believed in
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  yourself there, would you say or not?
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  Warwick Schiller: You know what, there, there must be, but I think,
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  you know, my parts were pretty fragmented to where, you know, I used
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  to think I didn't have any intuition.
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  you know, I spent a lot of time in my head, not so much in my body, but I,
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  but I, yeah, there all, all the, yeah, there's, there's, I, I think that's
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  what must have been there was, I had some intuition I wasn't even aware of.
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  Right.
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  Or e either that or, you know, my give a shit was busted.
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  Like, I just wanted to do what I wanted to do.
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  Were there even too much thought as to the, as to the outcome of where is
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  this gonna be in 20 years or whatever,
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  Rupert Isaacson: you know?
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  Indeed.
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  But that takes a certain, , that takes a certain.
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  Not just courage, but also it does, I think, take a certain innate intuition.
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  And one of the things I liked that you just said were perhaps you were intuitive
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  without knowing you were intuitive.
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  And I, cuz I, I feel that describes actually a lot of people, you
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  know, a lot of people say, oh, I, I, you know, I'm in my hair.
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  I don't have intuition and I don't know if I buy that.
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  I think everybody has intuition, but they're not necessarily trained to
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  recognize it or value it perhaps.
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  Would you?
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  What do you think
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  Warwick Schiller: to that?
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  Yeah, not trained to recognize it, value it or even be aware of it, you know,
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  how to listen to it, how to tap into it.
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  and I'm only just, I think, get into that point these days.
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  But I, I do, you know, I, I was very dissociated as a kid.
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  I spent a lot of time all my life, spent a lot of time in my head.
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  And so I think, you know, you said something about courage there minute
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  ago, and I've always thought that I wasn't, I wasn't courageous at all.
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  And you know, you've just been, um, doing some things with Jane
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  Pike and Jane was at our house.
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  This is interesting.
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  Jane was at our house, oh, possibly, I think it was, she came out for
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  the Walter Question games, but I think it was the year after that.
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  So it must have been 2019.
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  And she was at our house and I had asked her, I said, have you
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  ever seen that movie Free Solo?
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  Have you seen a movie Free solo?
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  Rupert Isaacson: I have not seen it, but I've heard much.
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  Warwick Schiller: Okay, so you know, Alex hon, one of the world's
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  best rock climbers, and he free solos, , El Capita in Yosemite, which
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  is a 3000 foot shear granite cliff.
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  And he climbs it with no ropes.
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  And, , we were talking about that and Jane said to me, you know, the thing
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  about Alex is he is fully aware that he could die any moment and he still does it.
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  And I said, yeah, well, yeah, but it's not just him.
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  I mean, there's a lot of people that free solo.
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  She goes, yes.
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  But I think what they do is they dissociate from the fact they could
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  die, and that's how they can do it.
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  Whereas Alex is fully aware and fully buys into, Hey, I could die doing this.
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  He, it's not, he doesn't dissociate.
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  I mean, he's fully aware of it and still does it.
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  And that statement there to not be thinking for a number of years.
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  And I think when you said, oh yeah, you were courageous, giving up your
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  job, going to America, whatever, I think I was dissociated from the
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  fact, what if this doesn't work?
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  I think I've always been quite dissociated from the fact of what
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  if this doesn't work, which has allowed me to do things with no, no
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  idea if it's gonna work or not.
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  And still doing it.
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  It might, and it might seem like bravery to some people, and maybe this is just my
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  self-judgment of myself, but it might seem like bravery to some people, but it's not
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  like I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try this.
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  and I might be destitute living on the, on the street or it might
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  work and I'm gonna do it anyway.
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  I think I have dissociated from negative outcomes from things and that's how I've
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  been able to kind of, you know, go with the flow of the universe and go, Hey, I'm,
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  I'm gonna do whatever you present to me.
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  But I do think it's, I've, I've, been pretty good at dissociating from the
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  possibility of things going wrong and I, I'm, and I'm not sure if that's a, I'm
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  not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I think that's what it is.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Well, maybe, you know, I, I'm sure a lot of listeners
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  will be pondering this right now.
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  I mean, I think one of the things which, we are all, I think more impressed
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  with each other than we are with ourselves, cuz we all know ourselves
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  and we all know what, you know, idiots.
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  We are cuz we remember ourselves, our younger versions, and we still
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  see ourselves doing the same silly stuff and thinking the same silly
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  stuff we always did and felt.
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  However, I think that, , we often don't value our own forms of courage.
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  I think we, we take those for granted.
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  So you saying this to me, I'm sitting here, you know, listening
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  to it and thinking, well, yeah, but is that a bad thing?
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  I mean, if that, that just sounds to me like a different courage
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  style rather than lack of courage.
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  and
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  Warwick Schiller: yes, but you are not the voice in my head.
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  Ah, yes.
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  Voice in my head tells me Totally different.
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  That
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  Rupert Isaacson: voice.
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  Okay.
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  So, , do you still have that voice?
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  Warwick Schiller: Oh yeah, yeah.
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  I'm, I'm, . Yeah.
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  I'm coming to grips with that, with that voice.
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  And I just recently had a, um, bit of a, not an out body journey, but a bit of a
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  journey, you know, where I came to realize that that voice is not the real me.
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  Yeah.
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  And he's the, he's the, I dunno if I'm gonna call him the bad guy, but Yeah.
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  It's like that guy's not the real me and the real, and, and you know, I've had
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  for quite a long time, I've had these, you know, as I've been down this path
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  of self-discovery or whatever, I keep on getting into deep places, I can't,
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  I keep getting this feeling of, well, I've had this with like plant medicine.
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  Uh, as well, I keep getting this feeling of, there's these others that I'm gonna
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  have to answer to for all my, you know, failings and yada, and it's these others.
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  And I, and I just occurred to me recently that these others, I've been
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  scared of their, of the, the judgment or what they're gonna tell me or
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  whatever, because there's gonna be a lot of scorn, whatever involved in it.
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  I just occurred to me the other day, I believe that
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  others is actually the true me.
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  That is the.
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  So it's not, it's, it kind of dawned on me.
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  It's not something to be afraid of, like the opinions of whoever
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  these others are going to be to tell me how I'm screwing shit up.
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  I realized here recently that that's, I think that's actually the real me trying
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  to get rid of all the, the shadow me you might say, or help get rid of him.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Is the real you a critical voice or is the
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  real you an encouraging voice?
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  Warwick Schiller: Oh, I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna be an encouraging
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  voice, but I think first it's gotta call me to task for a lot of different things.
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  But it's, it's different than if I, I, for me at least, it's, I'm looking at
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  it differently now then I just had this epiphany that I shouldn't be worried about
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  these, these, this guy, this whatever this entity is, this knowledge, this
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  energy, whatever it is that's gonna tell me all the things I'm doing wrong because
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  that is me and, and, and, and this, you know, all the negative voices I have in
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  my head these days is not actually me.
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  It's gonna be trying to banish that I think.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So let's just return to, you've gone back to America.
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  , the good news is that, , Robin has.
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  Run away completely.
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  , there's a job now.
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  Warwick Schiller: She slowed down when I got back , she allowed me to, she
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  allowed me to catch her when I got back.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Just, or at least, at least get one hand on the, on, on
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  the, on, on the material of the sleeve?
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  Yes.
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  , yes.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Before being required to chase over the next mountain range.
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  but tell us what happens then?
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  You, you arrive here, you set up a life, then what?
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  , Warwick Schiller: well, I went, I, I came back and I went back to work for
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  that guy for another couple of years.
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  And then Robin and I were gonna get married and I couldn't work for this
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  guy and be married at the same time.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So why not?
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  He, , he wanted to marry you?
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  Warwick Schiller: No, he didn't wanna marry me, but he, , yeah.
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  Rather imposing figure and you, you know, you're basically on
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  call 24 hours a day sort of thing.
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  So I was living there on the, on the place.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  That would not be a good, what,
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  Rupert Isaacson: what state was that out of interest?
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  Fear, , the state of fear.
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  Right.
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  Um, is that, is that the fear in the upper 40 above the lower 48 or
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  Warwick Schiller: That's the fear over on the left, next to the, next
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  to the pacification, California.
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  Yeah.
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  I've only ever lived here in California
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  Rupert Isaacson: Pacific.
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  Fear.
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  Got it.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  . Um, okay.
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  So you realize that with this particular trainer, you have to be all in.
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  There's no other way.
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  So you have to, you have to, to go.
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  So what do you do?
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  Warwick Schiller: Uh, I got a job working for some, some people who had, they
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  had stallion and they were raising some horses and, and so I got a job working for
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  them, , which means we were gonna move.
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  So Robin had to get a new job.
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  And, you know, the thing is, Robin has always been the breadwinner
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  in our family as far as having the real job with the health insurance.
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  As you know, health insurance in America is ridiculously expensive,
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  you know, self-employed, you can't get health, health insurance very good.
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  And, but, you know, Robin was into horses and so if you think about
• 18:45
  the business of training horses,
• 18:49
  Rupert Isaacson: not without its dangers.
• 18:50
  Yeah,
• 18:51
  Warwick Schiller: yeah.
• 18:52
  Not without its dangers, but, but, but because we're in business doing that.
• 18:56
  Think, think about, if you, let's say she, so Robin was in human resources.
• 19:00
  Let's say she's just a person who's in your human resources, but she wants
• 19:03
  to go to horse shows on the weekend.
• 19:04
  She's gonna buy horses and she's gotta buy a truck and she's gotta buy a trailer,
• 19:06
  she's gotta buy a s she's gotta buy some boots, she's gotta buy some brushes.
• 19:09
  All of that stuff comes out of your income after tax.
• 19:15
  Whereas I'm a horse trainer and, you know, she wants a truck and
• 19:18
  she wants a trailer and she wants a horse and she wants to sell.
• 19:20
  We can write all that stuff off.
• 19:21
  So it, it,
• 19:23
  it, you know, she was the main, she was the main breadwinner for a long
• 19:27
  time, but I, you know, her being that breadwinner kind of allowed me to follow.
• 19:35
  No sort of thing.
• 19:36
  Follow my interests sort of thing with no, , having to worry about
• 19:40
  the, the negative outcomes of that.
• 19:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And so, no, you, you say very gli.
• 19:46
  Well, I left and I got a job somewhere else, but I, , also lived, , in
• 19:49
  North America for many years.
• 19:51
  So, I know that just showing up in North America to work horses is not
• 19:54
  the same as having a work permit and a green card and that sort of thing.
• 19:57
  It took me quite a while to, get all that sorted.
• 20:01
  , did you get married right away or were you having to go under the table?
• 20:03
  Like many
• 20:04
  Warwick Schiller: of us, so, oh no, it's, I'd been under the table for,
• 20:07
  you know, the first three years.
• 20:09
  So then I was, , but we were married, so we got a, well, I had
• 20:13
  a green card by this point in time.
• 20:14
  And what's really interesting is if you ever seen that movie, green Card, anybody
• 20:17
  listening has seen that movie Green Card with, the French guy with the big nose.
• 20:20
  What's his name?
• 20:21
  Er wait.
• 20:24
  , it is just like that when you go, we used to be back then, at least when
• 20:27
  you go in for the interview, they want, you know, they separate you.
• 20:29
  They wanna know how does he have his coffee in the morning, what
• 20:31
  colors his toothbrush, which side of the bed did he sleep on?
• 20:33
  They're trying to really make sure that you're not marrying
• 20:36
  for, , the wrong reason.
• 20:39
  Just for the gr Yeah, just for the green card.
• 20:41
  Yeah.
• 20:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 20:43
  I went through all that.
• 20:43
  I remember.
• 20:44
  , and I, I, like you did many years, , under the table as a horse trainer, which
• 20:49
  of course is an immensely physically dangerous thing to do because if you
• 20:52
  take a wreck, , well, you, there is no.
• 20:55
  Care.
• 20:56
  And it's interesting, I'm sure you have this, I look back at the risks
• 21:00
  I took, , you know, I was doing jumping horses and I've, and I was
• 21:03
  falling off them, , as you do gravity.
• 21:06
  And, , it didn't occur to me, , perhaps cuz I grew up in England with the
• 21:10
  national health, perhaps because I like you, I disassociated or whatever.
• 21:14
  It didn't occur to me what could happen if I took a wreck beyond a certain point.
• 21:20
  Did you ever have that worry?
• 21:22
  Or did again, did you just push
• 21:24
  Warwick Schiller: that out of your mind?
• 21:26
  No, I don't think I ever, ever considered it.
• 21:29
  You know, I've always been healthy, never go to doctors, whatever.
• 21:32
  So it wasn't like, you know, that was something I really,
• 21:35
  really concerned about actually.
• 21:37
  When horses
• 21:37
  Rupert Isaacson: jump on, you smash you against walls, stomp you.
• 21:41
  Yeah.
• 21:41
  And otherwise
• 21:43
  Warwick Schiller: send you to the doctor
• 21:45
  Yeah.
• 21:45
  Or you just kind of soldier on whatever.
• 21:47
  Indeed.
• 21:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so you're soldiering on, you're a horse
• 21:51
  trainer now, you're married to Robin.
• 21:53
  , you're, both of you showing, you're, you're both competing.
• 21:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:58
  , you've got a horse training business.
• 21:59
  Okay.
• 21:59
  She's got a quote unquote real job.
• 22:01
  But you're clearly doing this together.
• 22:04
  You're clearly building an equestrian endeavor together.
• 22:09
  How does this plan out?
• 22:10
  What, what happens next?
• 22:12
  , Warwick Schiller: well, I was really interested in the raining at the, you
• 22:14
  know, that's where I came to America, wanted to learn about raining horses.
• 22:18
  and so we, and initially I had to take whatever, oh, sorry.
• 22:21
  I worked for those people for a year, and then we decided to move
• 22:24
  down to where her parents live, where we are right now, actually.
• 22:28
  And so then I went out on my own, like I'm training for the public and I wasn't,
• 22:32
  I wasn't ready to, you're out my own training for the public, but I did anyway.
• 22:37
  And the, you know, the thing is when I, the trainer I worked for,
• 22:40
  he only competed at the highest levels of say the, the reigning.
• 22:47
  And so that's all I knew.
• 22:50
  And so when I first started training, I started training outta this, this
• 22:54
  public boarding facility thing.
• 22:55
  And there was a trainer there and I was thinking, oh my
• 22:58
  goodness, there's a trainer.
• 23:00
  I'm gonna learn so much watching this guy ride and just being around him, I'll
• 23:02
  be out asking questions and whatever.
• 23:05
  And when I saw this guy who's a trainer, he's a, he's a professional trainer.
• 23:10
  And when I saw how he was with horses, I'm like, this guy's useless.
• 23:14
  And then what I realized what was there is old sorts of levels of trainers
• 23:17
  because there's no regulation of it.
• 23:20
  You can hang your shingle out and say, I'm a horse trainer, and I'd only ever been
• 23:23
  exposed to the ones at the upper levels.
• 23:26
  I thought that was the only level there was.
• 23:28
  I didn't realize there was all these levels and.
• 23:31
  You know, people can spend all their life being a horse trainer in an area, and
• 23:34
  they go to the little local show that's on once every two weeks or a month or
• 23:38
  whatever, and they take their clients there and they never get any better.
• 23:41
  They don't want to get any better.
• 23:44
  I, I didn't realize that, that that was an actual, that was an actual thing.
• 23:49
  So that was a, you know, that was a bit of a, an eye-opener.
• 23:51
  But anyway, so I open it.
• 23:52
  But anyway, so I, my, , in-laws gave me a wheeling or a yearling, that
• 23:59
  they got from a friend of theirs for my, sorry, our wedding present.
• 24:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Robin's family were also horsey.
• 24:05
  Warwick Schiller: Yes, yes.
• 24:05
  Mom, mum's, Robin's, mum's family were horsey.
• 24:07
  Yeah.
• 24:08
  and so we got this, I think it's a wining or yearling, but end up, you know, as he
• 24:13
  was, when he was old enough, I trained him and showed him in the reigning.
• 24:15
  And he was, he was the first raining horse I had to where I could go to
• 24:19
  horse shows with a, with a horse.
• 24:21
  And so people started seeing me compete on this horse and like, do good.
• 24:23
  So then I slowly started getting clients from the area who wanted to
• 24:27
  get into the raining or have a horse trained a certain way or whatever.
• 24:29
  And, and it built up from there.
• 24:31
  And by the, we got married in 94 and by about 99 I was, , I
• 24:37
  just had raining horses.
• 24:38
  That's all I had.
• 24:39
  So that's, you know, I was,
• 24:40
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm just gonna interject for people who are listening who do not
• 24:44
  know what raining is, and there may be some raining, is, you could say the, the
• 24:48
  dressage of Western riding to some degree.
• 24:51
  Um, it's the finer riding of, of patterns rather than roping cows
• 24:57
  or, riding the rodeo events.
• 24:59
  Would you, would you say that that's more or less accurate?
• 25:02
  Warwick, just for those listeners who might not be f fully
• 25:05
  familiar with what raining is.
• 25:06
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 25:07
  It's, I mean, one other way that I describe it is like
• 25:09
  ice skating on horseback.
• 25:11
  Okay.
• 25:12
  but yeah, cross between dress ice and ice skating
• 25:14
  Rupert Isaacson: and horseback the horse.
• 25:16
  And, and the horse has no problem keeping the skates on.
• 25:18
  they don't wobble through the anchor.
• 25:20
  Warwick Schiller: Oh, we've gotta strap, strap the skates on.
• 25:21
  Pretty tight.
• 25:21
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:22
  Rupert Isaacson: Horses on ice.
• 25:24
  , okay.
• 25:25
  So now you're doing quite well.
• 25:26
  You've got a, a decent horse.
• 25:27
  You're attracting clients and you're away, you're, you're, you're good.
• 25:31
  why not just stop there?
• 25:32
  Why not just be a horse trainer?
• 25:37
  Warwick Schiller: Well, my son was, , so the, when my, you've met my son
• 25:41
  Tyler, , when Tyler was in kindergarten, we homeschooled him and we were
• 25:45
  traveling all over the United States.
• 25:47
  We drove from this coast to the west, the east coast, showing horses.
• 25:51
  And, but then we thought, no, he's not getting socialized the way he should.
• 25:54
  So he, you know, he needs to go to a, a real school.
• 25:58
  , but, and then we got thinking, you know what, the better you get at this
• 26:00
  horse training camper, especially with horse shows and stuff, the more
• 26:03
  you're gone, and I'm not sure that is, is, something we want for Tyler.
• 26:08
  And so we actually, during, this is during 2003, this is,
• 26:15
  this is how the universe works.
• 26:16
  During 2003, we actually flew back to Australia to my hometown, looking
• 26:21
  at opening a subway sandwich shop.
• 26:23
  I know nothing about retail or subway sandwiches or whatever, but we thought
• 26:27
  that's a franchise we could get into.
• 26:28
  We could just have a regular lifestyle, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 26:31
  Anyway, we, we flew back there and it, you know, I contacted Subway and it turns
• 26:36
  out that the town that I grew up in, that my family lives in, didn't have a
• 26:41
  subway, salmon shop, hadn't ever had one.
• 26:43
  And then the day before I called Subway, someone had got the
• 26:49
  franchise for that particular town.
• 26:52
  Okay?
• 26:52
  So we TRAs we come back to America.
• 26:55
  So I had this client who, , was.
• 26:57
  Silicon Valley headhunt.
• 26:59
  He was at one point in time, he was the biggest headhunter in Silicon Valley.
• 27:01
  So he was an IT executive recruiter, okay.
• 27:04
  And he would like, he's, he's the guy that introduced Tim Cook to
• 27:08
  Steve Jobs to take over Apple.
• 27:10
  Okay, guy's name's Rick Devine, really cool guy.
• 27:13
  And his wife was a client of mine, wife and daughter to a clients of mine.
• 27:16
  And so about, October that year, so I think it was in about July
• 27:22
  that we went back to Australia, about October that year.
• 27:25
  Rick calls me one day and I knew they were building this big fancy facility
• 27:28
  over on the coast near Santa Cruz.
• 27:30
  Rick calls me one day and he said, , Hey Vicky, so his wife's name is Vicky.
• 27:33
  He said, Vicky's looking for, do you know of any old, you know, horse trainers
• 27:39
  who are retired now, who are older, who, you know, don't really want to compete
• 27:44
  anymore, but they, they want a job.
• 27:47
  What, what Vicky would like to have as a private horse trainer.
• 27:50
  and you know, but they've gotta be of a certain level and a
• 27:55
  certain mindset and stuff.
• 27:56
  And I said to Rick, you know what?
• 27:58
  I don't know anybody that worked for that because anyone who's qualified
• 28:04
  for the job is not looking for the job and anybody who wants that
• 28:06
  job is not qualified for the job.
• 28:09
  Cuz he had said an older guy who's, you know, towards the
• 28:11
  end of his career or whatever.
• 28:13
  And I said, but I'll keep an eye out for you, sw it off the phone with Rick.
• 28:17
  And all of a sudden it hit me like, hang on, that could be an opportunity for.
• 28:23
  Because Vicky is a very, very particular about how horses are trained and
• 28:29
  treated and all that sort of stuff.
• 28:30
  And not, not a lot of people would fit that job.
• 28:31
  I'm like, that, that might work for me.
• 28:34
  And Robin was actually in Columbus, Ohio.
• 28:36
  So for you guys not from America, that's on the other side of
• 28:39
  the country from where we live.
• 28:40
  She was at a horse show there.
• 28:41
  And I, I called her and I told her and I said, well, you
• 28:43
  thinking, she says, call him back.
• 28:45
  So I called Rick back and I said, Hey, I actually, I'd be interested in that.
• 28:49
  And so we ended up, I went to work for Rick and Vicky for
• 28:53
  three years, 2004, 2005, 2006.
• 28:56
  So I, I'd had, I had a, a barn with like 20 regular clients,
• 29:00
  you know, 20 horses in training.
• 29:02
  Cuz over here with like, say with the rainy a horse stays
• 29:06
  in training with the trainer.
• 29:06
  It's not like you send a horse for 30 days and it goes home or whatever.
• 29:10
  They, they stay with the trainer, you know.
• 29:12
  So I had these, I had about 20 horses in training full-time and I'd had a
• 29:16
  young fellow work for me for five years.
• 29:18
  And, and I'd got to the point where I said to him, you know what?
• 29:22
  I can, I've taught you what I know, but you need to go to Texas and with
• 29:25
  one of the big raining trainers, you know, what I am good at is getting
• 29:29
  the best out of average horses.
• 29:32
  But those guys don't deal with average horses.
• 29:34
  They only deal with the best horses.
• 29:36
  And there's a whole different way of going about things.
• 29:39
  Doing that.
• 29:41
  So I'd sent him off.
• 29:41
  Well anyway, I had to call him and say, Hey, do you wanna
• 29:43
  come back and take over here?
• 29:44
  Because what I didn't wanna do was leave all these, a lot of the people that
• 29:47
  I had as clients weren't interested in the ranching in the first place.
• 29:50
  They just started coming for lessons.
• 29:51
  And then they saw the horses, like, I'd like to try that.
• 29:52
  And said to all these clients, I feel felt like I couldn't
• 29:55
  leave him to hang out to drive.
• 29:57
  So I had this young fellow come back and took over and we went over to, and we
• 30:02
  worked for the Divines for three years.
• 30:03
  And it was great because I could, I could drop Tyler off at school in the morning.
• 30:09
  You know, I had basically, I was my own boss, you know, I had a eight stall barn
• 30:13
  that cost a million dollars to build, had copper gutters and downspouts,
• 30:16
  and was, was designed by an architect.
• 30:17
  And, you know, I was all beautiful.
• 30:19
  So I dropped Tyler off, right horses, and then I'd go and pick him up from
• 30:22
  school, bring him out to the ranch, and he'd ride the quad around or shoot
• 30:24
  the BB gun or whatever he would do.
• 30:26
  So we spent lots of time together.
• 30:28
  But what was funny was, uh, couple of years after working for him, we having
• 30:34
  dinner one night, having a few drinks.
• 30:35
  And Rick said to me, remember that day I called you?
• 30:37
  And, and uh, I said, yeah.
• 30:39
  And he said, soon as I got off the phone, I turned to Vicky
• 30:42
  and I said, yeah, I got him.
• 30:46
  I didn't even know you were, I didn't even know you were, were, were head hunting.
• 30:49
  Me.
• 30:50
  He's that good.
• 30:51
  Like he, he didn't ask me.
• 30:53
  He asked if I knew of anybody who might be, and somehow his intuition let him
• 30:57
  know that I might be available to that.
• 30:59
  So,
• 30:59
  Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
• 31:01
  Did you, she worked for the, did you ever, um, go to him for
• 31:05
  masterclass in intuition at that?
• 31:07
  Warwick Schiller: No, he wouldn't have known, I wouldn't known what intuition was
• 31:10
  if you've bitten him the ass back then.
• 31:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:12
  . Um, so after three years of working for them, then Vicki decided, no,
• 31:17
  I might, I might wanna move to Colorado and live in the snow.
• 31:20
  And so I was gonna have to do something different.
• 31:23
  And we weren't very far from, you know, we're probably half an hour drive from
• 31:26
  more, it had been training horses.
• 31:27
  And I kind of felt like it wasn't fair for me to move back to the area
• 31:33
  that I was in before and then steal all my old clients back off the guard
• 31:36
  that had given these clients to.
• 31:38
  And so we decided, and this is another one of those things, I didn't think
• 31:41
  the, the negative possibilities, but I said, why don't we move to Australia?
• 31:47
  Why don't we move back to Australia?
• 31:49
  You know?
• 31:50
  Um, we'd done okay a little bit in the real estate market here, like, come on.
• 31:53
  We moved back to Australia, you know, Australia's cheap place to live, and
• 31:56
  we bought two quarter horse stallions.
• 31:58
  We thought I'll go the breeding business.
• 32:00
  And we moved back to Australia and we were there for four years.
• 32:03
  After three and a half years Rob and said, you know what?
• 32:06
  I wanna move home.
• 32:08
  And so she moved back, like in the middle of 2010 and Tyler and I stayed
• 32:13
  on to sell whatever horses and cars and houses and whatever house we had.
• 32:19
  Tyler is how old by now?
• 32:21
  Tyler was 14 when we moved back.
• 32:23
  So we was like, he was there from 10 to 14.
• 32:26
  Uh, so we moved there with a 40 foot container, two horses,
• 32:30
  two dogs, and came back with a 20 foot container and two dogs.
• 32:34
  Okay.
• 32:36
  And sold the horses while we're there.
• 32:37
  And then, and this is where life takes a turn.
• 32:40
  I was, when we were there, uh, we were both on the board of the, the
• 32:45
  Reigning Association in Australia.
• 32:47
  It's called Raining Australia.
• 32:48
  And we were at a board meeting and in about 2000 and maybe
• 32:53
  seven, eight, something like that.
• 32:56
  And they said, E so Equator is the biggest horse expo in Australia.
• 32:59
  It's a different company than the Ecut in Germany, but still it's called Equator.
• 33:04
  It's the biggest horse expo in Australia.
• 33:06
  And, and we were at a board meeting and they read out some
• 33:09
  correspondence that Equator had asked, could somebody come down and do a
• 33:12
  raining demonstration at Equator?
• 33:15
  And I said, yeah, well, I'm probably the closest.
• 33:16
  I was only about eight hours away from there.
• 33:18
  You know, some of the people on the board were 24 hours drive from where Equator is.
• 33:23
  It's in Melbourne at the bottom of Australia.
• 33:25
  And so I said, yeah, I'll, I'll go to do a bit of a demo.
• 33:28
  And then Equian contacted you.
• 33:30
  They have one of those, you know, those cult starting competitions like one in
• 33:34
  America that's called Road to the Horse.
• 33:36
  This one's called Way the Horse.
• 33:37
  And they wanted to know, would I, seeing I was coming down, would I
• 33:39
  be the inner arena commentator, like the color commentator for this col
• 33:43
  starting competition, like say Sure.
• 33:46
  And so that's the one of the main attractions there.
• 33:49
  The stadium there is full of people, so there's like three or 4,000 people
• 33:52
  in there every day watching this thing.
• 33:54
  And I get to stand and talk on the microphone for a couple of hours
• 33:58
  in front of a crowd of big crowd of people for like three days in a row.
• 34:02
  and I was just helping it out.
• 34:03
  You know, they asked me to do it.
• 34:04
  There was no, um, plan to do anything with that.
• 34:09
  Anyway, after that, I had people start call me up saying, Hey, we
• 34:12
  like the way you, um, we like the way you explained things at, at Ecut.
• 34:16
  Would you like to come up and do a clinic for us?
• 34:18
  I'm like, well, I hadn't ever really thought of doing
• 34:20
  clinics, but yeah, why not?
• 34:23
  And so I started doing clinics and so I did clinics, quite a lot of clinics.
• 34:26
  The last few years I was in Australia.
• 34:27
  So when we moved back to the us, Robin got her old job in HR back, uh, we
• 34:32
  moved back to the US and I've gotta start all over again, all over again.
• 34:36
  And I, um, you know, I started getting in problem, horses,
• 34:40
  problem, warm bloods, whatever.
• 34:42
  And I started videoing them and making these little videos on YouTube, because
• 34:46
  what I had seen from the clinics was that, oh, there's some very basic premises about
• 34:52
  horses that people don't understand and it causes them all sorts of problems.
• 34:56
  And if they understood these basic things that have a lot less trouble.
• 35:00
  So I started making these little videos, putting 'em on Facebook.
• 35:02
  Facebook had just really started a couple of years before that and
• 35:06
  YouTube, and they, people were liking them and people wanted, they
• 35:11
  said, can you do longer videos?
• 35:13
  Like show us more stuff?
• 35:14
  Well, at the time, YouTube would only allow you to put a 10 minute
• 35:18
  clip on unless you had a certain number of views on your channel.
• 35:23
  And so I couldn't put longer videos on YouTube.
• 35:26
  And so I found a video hosting site that would host my videos, but they
• 35:29
  wanted to charge me 300 bucks a month to put the videos on there.
• 35:33
  And so then I had to start charging for the videos just because otherwise
• 35:36
  I was gonna be losing money doing it.
• 35:38
  And that took off.
• 35:39
  And that's my main business these days is, you know, this online video library I had.
• 35:44
  But it all started out that there was no plan to monetize it.
• 35:48
  There was no plan to monetize going to Ecut and talking in
• 35:52
  front of all those people.
• 35:53
  There was no plan to turn that into clinics.
• 35:55
  There was no plan to monetize the, the videos.
• 36:00
  And I was listening to a Tony Robbins podcast a few years ago where he was
• 36:03
  talking about, he's like, there's seven things you've gotta, you know what Tony
• 36:07
  Robbins like, he's pretty out there.
• 36:08
  There's seven things you have to do in life that makes life perfect or whatever.
• 36:13
  And there was, he said, there's the first five things and once you get through
• 36:16
  those, then the next one, there's two left, and then the next one, the sixth
• 36:19
  one, this is the hard one for most people.
• 36:22
  And that is giving with no thought of anything coming back from that.
• 36:27
  And if you can do that, you will be given more than you've ever could have imagined.
• 36:33
  And it's kind of like, that's kind of what's happened here is, um,
• 36:38
  you know, there was no plan to monetize anything, any of those two
• 36:41
  givings, the going to e equitana and helping people understand things.
• 36:45
  And then putting these videos on YouTube.
• 36:47
  I was just putting videos on YouTube because I thought there was.
• 36:52
  You know, it's some misunderstandings about horses that people were having
• 36:54
  that I'd like to help them with, so they're not having as much problems.
• 36:57
  But there was no plan to monetize that at all.
• 37:01
  And then, you know, the, that thing after a few years took off to where I was
• 37:07
  spending, you know, I was doing clinics, I was flying around the road doing clinics,
• 37:10
  had horses and training, had to go working for me, helping those, keeping those going
• 37:13
  while I was away, had the video thing.
• 37:16
  And one time I came back from a trip and I'm thinking when I get back from a
• 37:19
  trip, I'm at the barn seven days a week, uh, six days a week, training horses,
• 37:24
  and that's making about 10% of my money.
• 37:26
  Why am I spending 90% of my time making 10% of my money?
• 37:29
  Tyler wants to go to college.
• 37:30
  You have to pay for college, you know, and so then I made the decision to not
• 37:35
  train horses anymore and just focus on the, the clinics and the, uh, the videos.
• 37:40
  And then a few years, I don't know how many years after that, but not many years
• 37:43
  after that, Robin said, you need, you need help with running this thing that's came.
• 37:50
  So she quit HR and then, so she's, you know, she came
• 37:53
  in, no, me, and here we are.
• 37:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, this isn't quite where we are.
• 37:59
  , this is where I think we were.
• 38:02
  , this is where we were
• 38:03
  Warwick Schiller: at this point in the story.
• 38:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 38:05
  , so for those of you again, who are just gonna fill in a couple
• 38:10
  of gaps here, if you're not horsey, , Warwick made it sound.
• 38:15
  Relatively straightforward to become very, very, very successful
• 38:21
  in the horse training business.
• 38:24
  Let me assure you, listeners, it is not, , it is possibly, I would say, the hardest
• 38:32
  skill that you can possibly try to learn.
• 38:35
  And the reason is, is that most skills, let's say you want to learn a language
• 38:40
  or an art or something, it's you and your body and brain and your nervous system.
• 38:48
  When you add a horse, it's a whole other body, brain, and nervous
• 38:52
  system that has its own ideas.
• 38:54
  The weighs what a truck weighs that solves its problems by violently
• 38:57
  running away that isn't designed to carry weight on its back.
• 39:01
  Regards you as a predator cuz you are, your weight is not designed
• 39:05
  to sit on a moving barrel.
• 39:06
  You have these hands, you try to solve things with your hands and grabbing
• 39:10
  because that's what we do as, as apes.
• 39:11
  Well, you can't do that on the horse and without upsetting it greatly, if
• 39:15
  you, , go into your, , fight, flight, freeze position in that sort of crouch
• 39:20
  where you protect your organs and hunch, which of course you want to do on
• 39:23
  horses because it's often quite scary.
• 39:26
  particularly with young horses, guess what's gonna happen?
• 39:28
  You're gonna fall off and you're gonna fall off quite badly cuz
• 39:30
  your, your weight will be wrong.
• 39:32
  So just those things alone.
• 39:34
  Mean that it's sort of a miracle that the thing can even happen at all.
• 39:39
  But to take it to the level that Warwick took it, is no easy, feat at all.
• 39:45
  So, I just want you to know that he's not being falsely modest here.
• 39:49
  He's just a, a fairly modest dude.
• 39:52
  so I know him, but take it from me.
• 39:54
  this was not an easy road.
• 39:55
  This was not an easy road at all.
• 39:57
  Alright, so you are, you are, you are there and you are now,
• 40:00
  you've got this online video library, and this is doing well.
• 40:04
  , Robin's left her job.
• 40:05
  You're basically in media at this point.
• 40:07
  You're, you are, you are, you may not know it, but you're creating
• 40:10
  media admittedly, in service.
• 40:13
  Admittedly, you know, the content is about what you know, you're
• 40:17
  not at this point making content about, foreign wars or, , Netflix.
• 40:22
  , right.
• 40:22
  I'm not a journalist Game of Thrones, series or anything.
• 40:24
  But you're, nonetheless, you are producing very effective, documentary television.
• 40:28
  , even if you don't know it.
• 40:30
  and you've created a family business out of this.
• 40:32
  So your, your son is involved.
• 40:33
  Your, your, your wife is involved now.
• 40:35
  Now you're going for it again.
• 40:38
  Why not just stay there?
• 40:41
  Where did you go?
• 40:43
  Where have you gone?
• 40:44
  When I said, you said, this is where we are, I said, this is where we were.
• 40:47
  I know that you've.
• 40:50
  out from this.
• 40:52
  And this is where I really do, suggest that you start to listen a bit more
• 40:56
  deeply, listeners, cuz everything up to this point has been preamble.
• 41:00
  Warwick Schiller: yeah, this is all that, all that's just
• 41:01
  Rupert Isaacson: lead up, but it's, we need the, we need the context.
• 41:04
  So, okay, I'll stop talking now.
• 41:06
  What happens next?
• 41:08
  Warwick Schiller: So, Robin wants to buy another raining horse and we have this
• 41:13
  modest budget to buy this raining horse.
• 41:16
  And she's looking at two different horses.
• 41:18
  And one is a big old steady Eddie, sort of a gilding.
• 41:22
  And the other one is this little tiny little, not tiny, but little very
• 41:28
  athletic feely, can do all the hard stuff.
• 41:31
  And they're both the same price.
• 41:32
  We're actually gonna look at 'em from the same trainer.
• 41:36
  , they're both the same price, but one's average and one is exceptional.
• 41:40
  But the exceptional one, the trainer that has him, he, they can't what we
• 41:44
  would call him the business get him shown, meaning the talent he can show
• 41:48
  you at home doesn't, you can't com put a complete run together in the show ring.
• 41:52
  Something always goes wrong, like, and with this particular horse,
• 41:56
  he would spook at the judge's chairs or something like that.
• 41:58
  And the guy that trained the horse is a friend of mine.
• 42:00
  I know he's very, very good at training raining horses.
• 42:03
  But as far as problem solving, you know, he's not the best at
• 42:08
  that sort, those sorts of things.
• 42:10
  And so I'm like, you know, I.
• 42:13
  I've got this online video library.
• 42:14
  I go around travel around the world doing clinics, and all the
• 42:18
  horses leave better than they came.
• 42:20
  I know what I'm talking about.
• 42:21
  I can fix that horse, buy that horse.
• 42:25
  And actually, interesting story.
• 42:26
  We actually bought him from Michael Schumacher's wife Karina.
• 42:29
  So the Formula One driver, okay, Karina's really into the raining.
• 42:32
  And, both horses.
• 42:33
  Karina owned both horses.
• 42:35
  A friend of mine was training horses for them at the time.
• 42:37
  So I ended up buying this horse, his named Sherlock, and we get him home
• 42:40
  and I wanna fix this, fix this horse.
• 42:46
  And some of the, some of the issues he had were easily solvable, but
• 42:49
  there was one that I wasn't aware of that was a lot more subtle.
• 42:55
  Sherlock was very obedient, did whatever you want, but he carried this level
• 42:58
  of tension that would interfere with him in the show ring to where, so
• 43:04
  in the reigning you, you get given a, you, you start with a score of
• 43:07
  70, and then you, for each movement, you ha add and subtract from there.
• 43:12
  It's either, you know, if it's, if it's a good movement, you might get
• 43:15
  a 71, you know, you might get one point added, or if it's bad, you
• 43:19
  get one point taken away, you know?
• 43:21
  and you know, for a, a rain, there's either seven or eight maneuvers in
• 43:24
  a raining pattern, and a really good raining score might be like a 74.
• 43:29
  Okay?
• 43:31
  But, Apart from getting scored on each maneuver, there are
• 43:35
  also penalties incurred.
• 43:36
  You know, it'd be like in jumping time, faults sort of thing, or knocking a rail
• 43:40
  would be, you know, that sort of thing.
• 43:42
  So if you jump clear your time is a certain thing in, in the jumping, but
• 43:46
  if you knock a rail, it's this much off.
• 43:49
  You knock two Rs too much, that sort of thing.
• 43:51
  Yeah.
• 43:51
  And so Sherlock could go in there and mark like, you know, Rob was showing him,
• 43:55
  he could go in there and mark earn a 74, but he would have a number of penalties
• 44:01
  that would bring him back down to a 70.
• 44:03
  And those penalties were the simplest of things.
• 44:07
  So in the reigning of horse needs to be on the correct lead.
• 44:09
  Of course,
• 44:11
  Rupert Isaacson: again, for the non horsey people, that means when you are countering
• 44:14
  or in the slow Gallup, the four leg needs to be on the inside of the curve.
• 44:20
  This might sound very esoteric, but it basically, it's, it can
• 44:24
  be the difference between a horse
• 44:25
  Warwick Schiller: falling over and not.
• 44:28
  Yeah.
• 44:28
  So if you think about skipping, you're gonna skip with one leg
• 44:32
  skips in front of the other one.
• 44:33
  Both of the legs, the front legs and the back legs need to be doing that thing.
• 44:37
  Like the inside Hein leg goes further forward in the outside hen
• 44:40
  leg and the front leg, same thing.
• 44:42
  Well, what Sherlock would do, because he had this level of tension when
• 44:44
  he was running fast circles in the reigning, he would bounce his hin
• 44:48
  feet together every once in a while.
• 44:49
  So he's not on the wrong lead.
• 44:51
  His outside hen leg does not reach further forward than his inside home league.
• 44:55
  He's not on the wrong lead.
• 44:56
  He would just bounce his home feet together.
• 44:57
  Well, that's a one point penalty that is not on the correct.
• 45:01
  Okay.
• 45:01
  For that split second, but it's still the same penalty.
• 45:05
  Yeah.
• 45:05
  And so he would do that, like, and I could not train that out of him.
• 45:10
  I couldn't Yeah.
• 45:11
  Do exercises to, to fix that.
• 45:13
  And trying to do things actually made him seem worse.
• 45:17
  Right.
• 45:18
  And that brought stress attention.
• 45:20
  Right.
• 45:20
  Yeah.
• 45:21
  And what, what I came to realize about Sherlock, he was just
• 45:24
  very, very shut down, very, very robotic shut down in his head.
• 45:29
  And he, he led me down a rabbit hole of figuring out that I was
• 45:39
  exactly the same way Sherlock was me.
• 45:43
  And how I came to discover that I was at a horse expo in Madison, Wisconsin.
• 45:49
  And at those horse expos, most times I'm working with the horse in an arena.
• 45:53
  Right.
• 45:54
  You know, I don't bring a horse.
• 45:55
  I have problem horses that show up and I help them, but every once in a
• 45:58
  while, the horse expo will have you do a standup talk in like a lecture hall.
• 46:02
  And so I've, and you know, quite a, quite often the horse ex expos have that.
• 46:06
  So I just have this title that I have that I will spit.
• 46:10
  You know, they want titles for the sessions three months ahead of time.
• 46:12
  And I'll just give 'em this one title.
• 46:14
  And it's called Everything I Learned in Life.
• 46:15
  I Learned From Horses, and I've done it over the years.
• 46:18
  And I just talk about life lessons I've learned from horses.
• 46:20
  And each one's a bit different, but by about this time, I'd
• 46:25
  started looking at things.
• 46:27
  I dunno quite a bit differently, but I stood up in front of a couple of
• 46:29
  hundred people and did this talk.
• 46:30
  And that was, the talk was different than I'd done before.
• 46:33
  And I was probably a little more vulnerable about things than I had before.
• 46:39
  And when I got done with that talk, I went back to my booth and I
• 46:42
  went past Barbara Schulte's booth.
• 46:44
  So you met Barb at the, the Genuine Podcast Summit last year.
• 46:48
  Barb's a question mindset coach.
• 46:52
  And she said, how'd the talk go?
• 46:55
  And I said, oh my god, Barb, I'm exhausted.
• 46:57
  I feel like I've been run over by a truck.
• 46:59
  She goes, what do you mean?
• 47:00
  And I said, ah, I was, there was 200 strangers in that room.
• 47:04
  And I, I told him some stuff I've probably never even told myself before.
• 47:11
  I've never admitted to somebody or probably never knew it to myself before.
• 47:14
  And she goes, oh, well you know what Brene Brown says, you know,
• 47:16
  vulnerability's a ultimate badass.
• 47:18
  And I'm like, Brene, who?
• 47:20
  She says, Brene Brown.
• 47:21
  So I came home and I looked up this Brene Brown and I got a couple of her audiobook.
• 47:24
  So I was outside on the tractor moving piles of horse manure or whatever
• 47:28
  with my earphones on listening.
• 47:30
  And Brett, a Brown says in there, if you, you, you can't
• 47:36
  selectively suppress emotions.
• 47:37
  If you suppress the low emotions, fear, grief, those sorts of
• 47:41
  things, you automatically suppress the higher emotions.
• 47:43
  And I'm like, well, I know, you know, in my family of origin, well
• 47:48
  my culture I grew up in, you know, boys don't cry, boys don't show fear.
• 47:52
  And in my family, I don't show grief.
• 47:54
  Like I can remember going to a funeral and my parents would go,
• 47:56
  well, he's dead, and off you go.
• 47:58
  You know?
• 47:59
  And so I knew I had some suppressed emotions on the lower side, but I
• 48:03
  never thought about the higher side, like, could I experience more joy
• 48:07
  or more happiness or, or whatever.
• 48:09
  And so that kind of led me down a rabbit hole of therapy and looking at, looking
• 48:14
  at for different ways of resolving that.
• 48:19
  And you know, it's, that's been four year, that was 2017, so maybe
• 48:24
  that's been about six years now
• 48:26
  Rupert Isaacson: before we join you down the rabbit hole.
• 48:28
  Why on that particular occasion were you vulnerable talking to those
• 48:32
  people where you hadn't been before?
• 48:33
  What changed?
• 48:34
  What was different?
• 48:36
  Warwick Schiller: well, sh you know, Sherlock had got me, Sherlock had kind
• 48:39
  of got me to where I thought I knew what I was doing and w I know what
• 48:46
  to do and I know how to solve things.
• 48:48
  And when I couldn't solve things the way I was looking at solving them
• 48:55
  the way I had been solving all sorts of things in the past, it kind of,
• 48:59
  that's a little confronting to where you're like, you know, it's kind of
• 49:01
  like your view of the world changes.
• 49:04
  Like, I thought it was this way.
• 49:06
  I thought there were absolutely, and this works.
• 49:09
  . And when that doesn't work, it kind of gets you looking outside that.
• 49:12
  So I started, what I had started doing was reading articles online by
• 49:15
  people that I would've horse people.
• 49:18
  Then in the past I would've considered crazy cat ladies , you know, like,
• 49:24
  and a lot of it had to do with relationship type work with horses and
• 49:27
  not technique type stuff with horses.
• 49:31
  And I, and then I'd started, I'd started fiddling with horses at clinics actually.
• 49:35
  And I, I had a,
• 49:38
  I had a horse at a clinic in Texas around this time.
• 49:42
  And it was before this, it was before this horse expo where I gave this
• 49:48
  talk and this, this was the thing that probably changed everything for me.
• 49:54
  So this horse came to a clinic, he's a Mustang.
• 49:56
  He's been outta the wild for nine, for six years.
• 49:58
  He's nine years old.
• 49:59
  Been outta the wild since he was three.
• 50:01
  They've been riding him and, you know, he does everything well, except every
• 50:06
  once in a while he will bolt out of nowhere and they dunno what causes it.
• 50:11
  Okay.
• 50:11
  And the trainer of the horse was at the clinic as well as the owner.
• 50:15
  , you would've met them probably at the podcast summit last
• 50:17
  year cuz they were there.
• 50:18
  But the owner's name's Hannah and, and this horse, no.
• 50:22
  So I said to the, I said to the trainer, so what triggers the bolting?
• 50:25
  Cuz you don't sew the bolting issues?
• 50:27
  Boltings.
• 50:28
  A bolting is a.
• 50:30
  is a symptom of something else.
• 50:32
  If you can figure out what the something else is, the bolting will go away.
• 50:35
  And I said, what causes it?
• 50:36
  Like, what's the trigger?
• 50:37
  She goes, the, and the trainer said, I don't know what the trigger is.
• 50:40
  Like it could be something that yesterday he was fine with.
• 50:43
  And you know, the time before it could have been something he was
• 50:45
  fine with the day before that.
• 50:47
  And I'm like, well, that's interesting.
• 50:48
  I'm not sure I can help you because I've gotta know what the trigger
• 50:51
  is in order to solve the problem.
• 50:52
  The problem is not the problem, you know?
• 50:55
  And so Hannah was on the ground doing some groundwork with him, and
• 50:59
  she was asking him to disengage.
• 51:01
  So he is just gonna walk down his side and just ask him to step over
• 51:04
  behind maybes, cross his hi legs.
• 51:07
  And she said to me, Hey, he keeps blocking me out.
• 51:11
  Like when I go to walk down beside him, I'm in, like she's in front
• 51:14
  of him facing him, and she wants to walk down his left side and ask
• 51:17
  him to move his hand end over, but he turns his head and blocks her.
• 51:20
  And in the past I probably would have taken that as you know, not
• 51:26
  necessarily disobedience, but what I would've done in the past.
• 51:29
  It just reached my hand under his jaw and moved his head back to the
• 51:31
  middle and walked down the side.
• 51:35
  I said, let me try.
• 51:36
  And I went over and I went to walk down his side and he turned
• 51:38
  his head and blocked me with his head to not get in his side.
• 51:40
  Instead of saying, excuse me, I'm going down your side.
• 51:43
  I stepped back to my original position and said, I saw your concern.
• 51:47
  It was basically what I was communicating from that.
• 51:49
  Like, I'm not sure why you did that.
• 51:52
  , but I saw you did that and I, you're telling me you don't
• 51:55
  want me to go down there.
• 51:56
  And I said to Hannah, you've probably just overdone the disengaging.
• 51:59
  Like if you drill stuff like this, they probably just get sick of it.
• 52:02
  I think that's what he's doing.
• 52:03
  Let me try again.
• 52:04
  So I tried again.
• 52:05
  He turned his head.
• 52:05
  I stepped back and said, I see your concern.
• 52:07
  I did it.
• 52:07
  I need that for about 10 minutes.
• 52:09
  And after about 10 minutes of not correcting him, not training him, but just
• 52:13
  telling him I'm listening, I go to walk down that side and he lets me, doesn't
• 52:18
  turn his head in the slightest bit.
• 52:21
  I'm like, okay, he's been ridden for six years, so obviously I could touch him.
• 52:25
  And so I reached my hand up to put on his wither just to put my hand there.
• 52:29
  But I'm watching his head and his eye and his ear and his nose and his muzzle.
• 52:34
  And as I go to touch him, his head raises just about half an inch.
• 52:37
  He just stiffens up very slightly.
• 52:39
  So I took my hand away and I waited till he showed me some
• 52:42
  sign of being less concerned, like his head lowers or whatever.
• 52:45
  And I tried it again.
• 52:47
  I did that for about 10 minutes.
• 52:48
  And so I spent 10 minutes trying to walk down the side of
• 52:50
  him, which he finally lets me.
• 52:52
  And then after about 10 minutes of this, doing this with my hand,
• 52:55
  I can now put my hand on him.
• 52:56
  And there's no change in him.
• 52:58
  Like he's not concerned at all.
• 53:00
  And I said to Hannah, so now what I'm gonna do, I'm asking to disengage.
• 53:03
  And I ask him to disengage and he does it perfectly.
• 53:05
  And I said to Hannah, okay, what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna go back to the
• 53:08
  front of him and come down this side.
• 53:10
  And I bet he blocks me again.
• 53:12
  He's gonna tell me I'm sick of disengaging.
• 53:14
  You know, I walk back to the.
• 53:17
  I go to walk down the side, he lets me ask him to disengage.
• 53:20
  So I go back to the front, I walk down the side and disengage.
• 53:22
  And I did it over and over and over.
• 53:23
  And I couldn't get him to say no.
• 53:25
  And I said to Hannah, I have no idea why he was saying no before,
• 53:29
  because he's fine with it now.
• 53:30
  So I hand the lead, wrote back to her and I, she said, what do you want me to do?
• 53:33
  And I said, just hang on to him.
• 53:35
  Just hang there with him, you know, let him think about that for a minute.
• 53:37
  So I go and help somebody else and about 10 minutes later there is a collective
• 53:41
  gasp from everybody at the clinic, like, and I turn and I look, and this
• 53:45
  little Mustang, his name's Cody, has buckled at the knees, dropped through
• 53:49
  his belly and just started snoring.
• 53:50
  Little dust, clouds in the dirt, like his head's vertical.
• 53:53
  And he's, and then all of a sudden he has a roll, gets up, has a big old shake, and
• 53:58
  then just buckles at the knees and goes back down and falls immediately asleep.
• 54:03
  And I said to Hannah, has that ever happened before?
• 54:08
  Is that normal?
• 54:09
  And she said, I've had him for six years and I've seen him lay down once.
• 54:13
  And so, right then I knew something had happened.
• 54:17
  I wasn't sure what happened or why it happened, but I knew something had
• 54:19
  happened and he slept to lunchtime.
• 54:21
  So, you know, at the time when I do a clinic, I was having a morning group
• 54:25
  and an afternoon group, and they were in the morning group and he slept for about
• 54:28
  an hour and a half with the loudspeaker going and other horses riding around.
• 54:31
  And she had actually gave
• 54:33
  Rupert Isaacson: the non horsey people.
• 54:34
  That's just, that doesn't happen.
• 54:35
  Horses, it doesn't happen.
• 54:36
  They don't sleep like that.
• 54:37
  No.
• 54:37
  Warwick Schiller: They little So.
• 54:41
  She put him away and the next day for the clinic, she brings him in
• 54:43
  first thing in the morning, you know, eight o'clock in the morning.
• 54:45
  And she said, what do you want me to do?
• 54:46
  And I said, just hang with him and see what he does.
• 54:48
  So she stands there about 20 minutes later, boom.
• 54:51
  And he goes, passes out flat on his side, sleeps for four hours till
• 54:55
  lunchtime, like doesn't get up.
• 54:57
  He's unconscious.
• 54:59
  Rupert Isaacson: And again, for listeners, horses, a, the reason
• 55:02
  they don't lie down for that long is because they're vulnerable to
• 55:05
  predators in the wild when they do that.
• 55:06
  And b, usually their internal organs, , can compress on it on
• 55:11
  themselves, when a horse is lying like that for an awful long time.
• 55:14
  So horses just generally will not do that.
• 55:16
  So this is, let's just say this is highly unusual behavior, okay?
• 55:20
  Warwick Schiller: Highly unusual behavior for any horse.
• 55:22
  But this horse, she hasn't seen him lay down in six years.
• 55:24
  She said, actually, I seen him lay down once, but when I appeared
• 55:26
  on the horizon, he jumped up.
• 55:27
  Yeah.
• 55:28
  And so I knew something had happened and I came home from that clinic and I looked
• 55:32
  up sleeping habits of horses online.
• 55:34
  You know, you, I know horses can sleep standing up and I know
• 55:37
  horses will sleep laying down.
• 55:38
  But what I didn't know was when horses sleep standing
• 55:41
  up, it is a very light sleep.
• 55:44
  It's dozing.
• 55:45
  They're just dozing in an order.
• 55:47
  So what they need to do in order to get enough r e m sleep, they need
• 55:51
  to lay prone, they need to lay flat.
• 55:54
  And in order to lay flat, they need to feel safe.
• 55:56
  And if a horse does not get enough, R e RM sleep, now we can't ask
• 56:02
  the horse what they do, but with humans, if they don't get enough r
• 56:04
  e m sleep, they're either irritable.
• 56:08
  Anxious.
• 56:09
  So anyway, she went home from the clinic.
• 56:11
  He slept for about a week.
• 56:12
  Like he spent more time sleeping than anything else for about a week.
• 56:15
  That was six or seven years ago.
• 56:18
  He has not bolted once since.
• 56:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 56:23
  I mean it makes one thing, you know, lack of sleep in a human if it's
• 56:26
  that chronic needs a psychosis.
• 56:29
  Warwick Schiller: Um, well this was, yeah, what he, he just wasn't relaxed.
• 56:31
  So his nervous system was on high alert and so it didn't, it
• 56:35
  wasn't about what set him off.
• 56:36
  It was the fact he, you know, his nervous system was stuck in flight mode basically.
• 56:41
  Yeah.
• 56:41
  But anyway, the big thing about that was I didn't do anything except listen.
• 56:46
  I only thing I did with him was communicate the fact I was listening
• 56:51
  and when he said, you notice that you noticed that little thing, you
• 56:55
  noticed my head raised half an inch.
• 56:56
  If you noticed that, then you could probably notice a save two
• 56:59
  tiger on the horizon, which means you are one of my herd mates.
• 57:02
  Like, I trust your judgment, which means I could lay down around you.
• 57:07
  And it was the biggest change I've ever seen with a horse
• 57:11
  that I didn't do anything with.
• 57:12
  Well, even, it's probably as big a change as I've ever seen in a
• 57:16
  horse and I didn't do anything.
• 57:17
  And up to that point in time, I'd all been about training horses, training, learning
• 57:21
  better training techniques, learning more about more empathetic training techniques.
• 57:25
  But they were all training techniques.
• 57:27
  And that was got me thinking about, well, what can we get done by listening?
• 57:32
  Quick
• 57:33
  Rupert Isaacson: question before we go there.
• 57:34
  Was this post Sherlock or pre-show?
• 57:37
  Warwick Schiller: This was after I got Sherlock and I, I, what I had done with
• 57:40
  Sherlock was I had stepped away from trying to make Sherlock any different
• 57:43
  because I didn't have the answer.
• 57:45
  And I'm not just gonna try and put a square peg in a round
• 57:47
  hole like I Sherlock is the
• 57:49
  Rupert Isaacson: bouncing of the two hind legs.
• 57:50
  You, you didn't fix it?
• 57:52
  Warwick Schiller: No, I didn't fix it and I couldn't fix it.
• 57:54
  And it made him more concerned when I was trying to fix it.
• 57:57
  So I said to Robin, okay, you can, you can go to a show and
• 58:01
  you can mark a 74 but lose four penalty points and still be a 70.
• 58:04
  And the person who won it was a 71 and you can be second, so
• 58:08
  I'm not gonna do anything to it.
• 58:10
  Cuz he could do all the hard stuff like he could, the spinning and the
• 58:13
  stopping and all the hard stuff he could do, that was not a problem for him.
• 58:17
  So she could still compete and be quite good without that.
• 58:21
  But I, I wasn't gonna try to fix it cause I didn't know how to fix it.
• 58:25
  But I got looking at other things and, and some of the articles I'd read and things
• 58:29
  like that is what made me experiment the way I did with this horse at this clinic.
• 58:33
  And that basically changed everything about how I approach horses is nowadays
• 58:37
  my whole approach is about telling them how much I'm listening first.
• 58:43
  And so, you know, you create connections through attunement, then
• 58:46
  the training comes on top of it.
• 58:47
  And it's amazing how easy horses are to train when, when
• 58:51
  you get all that stuff done.
• 58:51
  But that, that was the horse that really changed things for me.
• 58:55
  And it was after that, that clinic that I did the talk at the
• 59:01
  horse expo and I told that story.
• 59:03
  Got it.
• 59:04
  And I probably.
• 59:05
  A few other stories about some things.
• 59:06
  I'm not sure what they were, but, so that's what led me down the rabbit hole
• 59:09
  of starting to look into my own stuff.
• 59:11
  And you know, after about a year of that, I was thinking, yeah, I'm getting
• 59:14
  somewhere, but here, seven years later, just recently, I'm like, oh
• 59:18
  no, I'm just, I've just got to another level right now to where, and I'm
• 59:22
  not talking about going upper level, I'm going down a level like, oh no,
• 59:25
  this is deeper than I thought it was.
• 59:27
  There's, there's more to this self-reflection stuff
• 59:29
  than I thought there was,
• 59:31
  Rupert Isaacson: you know, for, again, listeners, , I, , two years
• 59:33
  ago, , found myself sitting in a sweat lodge with Warwick and, , a great
• 59:39
  friend of ours, Joel Dunley, who works in amazing therapeutic riding in,
• 59:43
  , in, , California, , with a medicine man from the Native American church.
• 59:48
  And, , that was the first time I, I was myself struggling.
• 59:54
  , I was in a major punk and the, , medicine man said to me, , I think
• 1:00:01
  you need to take some medicine.
• 1:00:03
  And by that he meant peyote.
• 1:00:06
  And I'm not a recreational drug user.
• 1:00:08
  There had.
• 1:00:10
  A chapter of that way back 500 years ago in my past, back in the police do scene
• 1:00:14
  when mastered on still bar bellow to mastered on across the prime evil swamp.
• 1:00:18
  But you know, I don't, I don't like alter state of consciousness,
• 1:00:22
  , that are induced that much.
• 1:00:25
  , because like everybody, I'm a bit of a control freak.
• 1:00:27
  So I was, I had all sorts of worries and then I gave up and I surrendered,
• 1:00:32
  and it turned out to be, life-changing and helped me an awful lot.
• 1:00:36
  And has to this day, Warwick was in that sweat lodge with me.
• 1:00:40
  So you've gone Warwick from, beginning to listen to horses now, beginning
• 1:00:46
  to look a little bit at yourself.
• 1:00:50
  Where does it go and why?
• 1:00:55
  Warwick Schiller: Can you reframe that question?
• 1:00:57
  Like what, what's your actual question?
• 1:00:59
  Okay.
• 1:01:00
  Where does it go next?
• 1:01:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:01:01
  You, you, you've started listening to horses and now listening to horses
• 1:01:05
  in this particular way has led you to some degree to listen to yourself.
• 1:01:11
  , you have this fight flight freeze.
• 1:01:13
  You have this shut down.
• 1:01:15
  You're beginning to realize this.
• 1:01:17
  You're beginning to see, you know, it's a terrible cliche to
• 1:01:19
  say the horse is your mirror.
• 1:01:20
  And it's, it's a somewhat abused cliche, but it's not that like
• 1:01:23
  all cliches, there's truth in it.
• 1:01:25
  , so you are seeing this and now you are feeling for some reason, You can't ignore
• 1:01:33
  your own shutdown downness anymore.
• 1:01:35
  Why a lot of people would, a lot of people would just keep going.
• 1:01:40
  Warwick Schiller: I think because I was aware, aware of it, really.
• 1:01:47
  , yeah, I, I just became aware of it and I was, what, what I, you know,
• 1:01:50
  what I ca you said some people would ignore their own shutdown.
• 1:01:54
  What I had come to realize is that the way I had been showing up in the world,
• 1:02:00
  there was a different way to be, you know, I thought my lot in life was my lot life.
• 1:02:04
  Like how I, and you know what, when you, when you spend a lot of time shut down,
• 1:02:10
  you know, a minor state of depression, you don't know you're depressed.
• 1:02:14
  Yeah.
• 1:02:15
  Because it's your normal, you don't know there's any other way you live and Right.
• 1:02:19
  And
• 1:02:19
  Rupert Isaacson: you're basically functional on a superficial
• 1:02:21
  Warwick Schiller: level.
• 1:02:21
  Right.
• 1:02:22
  So, yeah.
• 1:02:22
  And, but that's all, you know, if that's all, you know, that's, that's normal.
• 1:02:26
  And I spent a year doing a type of therapy called Dialectic Behavior Therapy, which
• 1:02:33
  was, I think originally designed for, um, created for highly suicidal adults.
• 1:02:38
  But they found it's good for people with any emotional regulation or
• 1:02:41
  dysregulation, you know, emotional regulation issues or dys regul.
• 1:02:46
  But I spent a year doing both individual and group therapy.
• 1:02:50
  Why that?
• 1:02:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Out of interest?
• 1:02:52
  With
• 1:02:52
  Warwick Schiller: all the I asked, I asked someone I knew, , through
• 1:02:55
  horses, who's a therapist, you know, what sort of therapy I should try,
• 1:02:59
  and, and she suggested that one.
• 1:03:00
  But I did, individual and group therapy.
• 1:03:03
  And the reason I did the group therapy is because when I first
• 1:03:06
  went and saw the therapist, I told her what I wanted to work on.
• 1:03:08
  She goes, oh yeah, this would be pretty easy.
• 1:03:10
  And after about three months of not, and she said, we have group therapy,
• 1:03:13
  but you won't need to do that.
• 1:03:14
  And after about three months of doing the individual therapy not getting
• 1:03:16
  anywhere, she goes, you really should start doing the group therapy.
• 1:03:18
  So I did the group and the individual therapy for a better part of your
• 1:03:21
  year and didn't get anywhere.
• 1:03:24
  Rupert Isaacson: What happened in those sessions?
• 1:03:25
  Why did you not get anywhere and what's the nuts and bolts
• 1:03:28
  of that type of therapy?
• 1:03:30
  Warwick Schiller: the nuts and bolts of that type of therapy, it's about
• 1:03:34
  developing, skills to use when you have emotional dysregulation.
• 1:03:41
  But what I found after 12 months and that didn't work, was you
• 1:03:46
  actually have to have some emotions for that particular method to work
• 1:03:51
  upon you when you have no emotions.
• 1:03:53
  Like we'd have homework every week from the, the group therapy, you
• 1:03:56
  know, you are gonna do this homework and then when you ha and, and then
• 1:04:00
  you're going to use that skill.
• 1:04:02
  It's the same as training horses.
• 1:04:03
  You, you know, you don't tr use the skill before you teach the skill.
• 1:04:07
  You teach the skill separately, and then when you have a situation
• 1:04:09
  to use it, you use the skill.
• 1:04:12
  And so our homework was to use the skill after we'd worked on it during the week
• 1:04:15
  and we'd come back like, do your homework.
• 1:04:17
  I'm like, no.
• 1:04:18
  Why not?
• 1:04:19
  Well, I didn't have any emotional regulation issues, did I?
• 1:04:22
  that didn't work.
• 1:04:23
  So, and this is where you just mentioned PE a minute ago.
• 1:04:27
  So after that, I was January after that, I was January probably 2019 maybe.
• 1:04:37
  I am driving around in Australia doing some clinics, and I'm
• 1:04:40
  listening to an audio book by
• 1:04:45
  Tim Ferris.
• 1:04:47
  I think it might be, might be Tim Ferriss or Dave Asprin.
• 1:04:52
  Now it was Dave Asbury, the Bulletproof Coffee Guide.
• 1:04:54
  I don't know if you know who Dave Esper is.
• 1:04:56
  No, I, I, I should.
• 1:04:58
  Dave Ry was a Aspery as Asper.
• 1:05:01
  Yeah.
• 1:05:01
  Dave Asprey was a, some sort of a Silicon Valley wonder guy and, and had, some sort
• 1:05:06
  of a startup company, which he sold in his early maybe thirties for a lot of money.
• 1:05:11
  And he had all this money and like, what am I gonna do with it?
• 1:05:12
  Well, he had been morbidly obese all his life and has tried every diet,
• 1:05:18
  every exercise planned, never couldn't lose weight, and you know, like didn't
• 1:05:23
  cut down on one bag of chips a day like he did the work, did like all
• 1:05:27
  sorts of workouts, weightlifting.
• 1:05:29
  Anyway, he had a lot of sports injuries from weightlifting, and he
• 1:05:33
  wrote this book called Game Changer.
• 1:05:38
  and he has a, he has a podcast.
• 1:05:39
  So on his podcast he interviewed like 300 people on his podcast and they're
• 1:05:43
  all game changers in their walk of life.
• 1:05:46
  And at the end of the podcast, he said, so what three things would you, what three
• 1:05:51
  bits of advice would you give people?
• 1:05:54
  And then he took all three bits of advice from 300 people and figured
• 1:05:57
  out what are the common denominators.
• 1:05:59
  And he wrote a book about it called Game Changers.
• 1:06:01
  And one of the first chapter was on a meditation practice.
• 1:06:04
  Everybody had a meditation practice.
• 1:06:05
  And as you go through the chapters goes down and things.
• 1:06:08
  Well, one of the things he was talking about in one of these chapters was,
• 1:06:12
  um, he said he'd been to a doctor in Silicon Valley who will draw fat out
• 1:06:19
  of you and spin off your stem cells and inject them into sports injuries like,
• 1:06:23
  so he said, I've had every joint in my body injected with my own stem cells.
• 1:06:27
  And he said, I feel like I'm, you know, I've had, my shoulders were
• 1:06:30
  jacked up from weight lifting and my knees were done from weight lifting.
• 1:06:33
  And he says, I feel great.
• 1:06:35
  I feel like I'm 18 again.
• 1:06:37
  He said, but there's something else this guy will do is he will pull fat
• 1:06:40
  out of you, spin off your stem cells and inject them into your vagus nerve
• 1:06:44
  and give you a complete emotional reset back to factory settings
• 1:06:47
  before whatever happened happened.
• 1:06:48
  And I'm like, Jimmy, I've been driving an hour each way twice a week to go to
• 1:06:53
  therapy for a year and I can just get an injection . And so I came home from that
• 1:06:58
  trip and I looked the guy up and he's just, you know, he's 45 minutes from.
• 1:07:01
  I made an appointment to have a phone consult with him.
• 1:07:04
  We talked for an hour on the phone and I told him what I wanted to do and he
• 1:07:09
  said, so we call that a St ganglion block, but we're not gonna do that with
• 1:07:13
  you cuz based on what you've told me, I'm gonna do something else with you.
• 1:07:16
  I'm like, okay.
• 1:07:16
  So we make an appointment for me to go in, uh, Rob and I go in, we spend probably
• 1:07:21
  an hour in his office chatting with him.
• 1:07:23
  Fascinating guy.
• 1:07:25
  Uh, then they take me into a room and hook me up to an IV of something called N
• 1:07:28
  A D, you know what N ad What's the name?
• 1:07:30
  What's
• 1:07:30
  the
• 1:07:31
  Rupert Isaacson: name of this guy who's doing the stem
• 1:07:32
  Warwick Schiller: cell injection?
• 1:07:33
  , his name is, I'll think of it in a minute.
• 1:07:38
  I'll look him up
• 1:07:38
  Rupert Isaacson: please.
• 1:07:40
  We'd all like to know.
• 1:07:43
  Warwick Schiller: It's in Dave Asbury's book about halfway through the book, but
• 1:07:45
  I'll think of his name here in a minute.
• 1:07:47
  And so they hooked me up to an IV of something called n A D.
• 1:07:50
  So n a d is a, if you dunno what n a d is, n a d is a co-factor.
• 1:07:55
  If you dunno what a co-factor is, neither do I, but it's something
• 1:07:58
  you were born with a certain amount of it, and as you age, it depletes
• 1:08:03
  drinking, depletes it quicker.
• 1:08:05
  And I used to drink three beers a day.
• 1:08:08
  and it has something to do with your gut brain neural pathway.
• 1:08:14
  Okay?
• 1:08:15
  And this n a d is supposed to help that.
• 1:08:18
  But, so I do four and a half hours of this n A d.
• 1:08:21
  And so they, it hurts when it goes in.
• 1:08:23
  What's interesting, like they put it in your arm, but it doesn't
• 1:08:26
  hurt where it goes in, it hurts in that part of your body that.
• 1:08:30
  . Interesting.
• 1:08:30
  And they get the drip towards, which in your case was where, where did it hurt?
• 1:08:34
  Gut.
• 1:08:35
  Okay.
• 1:08:37
  In my gut.
• 1:08:38
  And I had a, I had a messed up shoulder over here, and that shoulder hurt too.
• 1:08:42
  It was so fascinating.
• 1:08:43
  But they turn the drip to where you're about a five on the pain scale, five
• 1:08:46
  outta 10 on the pain scale any less.
• 1:08:48
  And that's gonna take too long anymore than, that's too much.
• 1:08:52
  But I felt physically sick to my stomach while this stuff was going in.
• 1:08:56
  Okay.
• 1:08:56
  Uh, anyway, they get done with that after about four and a half hours.
• 1:08:59
  Then he brings an, uh, gig energy healer in the room, and she sits down and they
• 1:09:03
  hook me up to an infusion of ketamine.
• 1:09:05
  And I had my first psychedelic experience.
• 1:09:08
  Why,
• 1:09:08
  Rupert Isaacson: why that?
• 1:09:09
  Why, why a cheong person to give you ketamine and why Ketamine.
• 1:09:13
  And why ke She didn't gimme the, after this n a d What,
• 1:09:17
  what was the logic process
• 1:09:18
  Warwick Schiller: there?
• 1:09:18
  You would have to ask the doctor, but it had to do with
• 1:09:20
  the, the being shut down stuff.
• 1:09:23
  That's his protocol for that.
• 1:09:25
  And the cheong energy healer didn't gimme the iv.
• 1:09:27
  She just sat with me in case I started to freak it out.
• 1:09:30
  Okay.
• 1:09:32
  Rupert Isaacson: So what happened?
• 1:09:33
  You, you, you take the
• 1:09:34
  Warwick Schiller: ketamine and take the ketamine and you just lay back
• 1:09:37
  in this recliner and it's like, it's a psychedelic, you know, it's
• 1:09:40
  a, it's a kaleidoscopic vision, the brightest colors you've ever seen.
• 1:09:45
  It's like it being in a kaleidoscopic rollercoaster is what it was like.
• 1:09:48
  And I'd never done anything to do with psychedelics, so I
• 1:09:51
  had no idea what I was in for.
• 1:09:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Were you distressed?
• 1:09:54
  Were you
• 1:09:55
  Warwick Schiller: uh, no, no.
• 1:09:56
  It was a very, like, they had this big smile on my face and it was
• 1:09:59
  like a very pleasant experience.
• 1:10:03
  , anyway, so then I get done with that go last for about 20 minutes.
• 1:10:06
  Robin's sitting over to the side of me watching me, and she said,
• 1:10:09
  I just lay there in the chair.
• 1:10:11
  And they said, okay, so your b your, your emotions should go offline
• 1:10:16
  for about eight hours, and in eight hours from now, they'll all kick in.
• 1:10:19
  And that was about four o'clock one afternoon.
• 1:10:21
  So we go home, , wake up, then the next morning, which is, you
• 1:10:26
  know, that's probably 14, 15 hours after I'd had it no different.
• 1:10:31
  And I said to Robin, oh, well that was a bust that didn't work.
• 1:10:35
  And I had to fly to Washington State that afternoon to d present
• 1:10:38
  at a horse expo on that weekend.
• 1:10:40
  And I was in San Jose airport sitting down about three o'clock in the afternoon.
• 1:10:43
  So almost 24 hours after I'd had this ketamine infusion.
• 1:10:47
  And all of a sudden I got this feeling in my abdomen.
• 1:10:49
  So think about this, the only emotions I'd experienced pretty much in my life
• 1:10:53
  that I can remember up to that point was heartbreak and being in love in my.
• 1:10:59
  Right.
• 1:10:59
  You feared dread in the pit of my stomach.
• 1:11:01
  That was the only, because I was,
• 1:11:03
  Rupert Isaacson: that was what I was gonna ask you is like, it's not
• 1:11:05
  that you had, didn't have emotions.
• 1:11:06
  You were obviously in love with, Robin, you pursued her, you chased her, you, you,
• 1:11:10
  you to some degree went back to America for, so I mean, it's not that you were
• 1:11:14
  emotionless, it's didn't have, you were emotion poor or so, is that what you said?
• 1:11:20
  Yes.
• 1:11:20
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 1:11:21
  Yeah.
• 1:11:21
  So heartbreak, being in love in my chest and fear and dread
• 1:11:25
  and the pit in my stomach.
• 1:11:26
  That's about it.
• 1:11:26
  Okay.
• 1:11:27
  That's about the extent of it.
• 1:11:29
  And so I'm sitting in this You mean airport ? You mean There's more sitting
• 1:11:32
  in San Jose airport the next afternoon and I get this feeling like there's
• 1:11:36
  an alien inside me and this energy and it moves around and it's in my,
• 1:11:41
  it's in my solar plexus, which I've never felt anything in there before.
• 1:11:44
  And it moves and it goes up and down.
• 1:11:46
  And as I'm walking around the airport, when I look at people, it changes
• 1:11:48
  and it goes here and it goes there.
• 1:11:49
  I'm like, what is this thing?
• 1:11:52
  And the strangest thing, I went to that horse expo and I
• 1:11:54
  had a booth at the horse expo.
• 1:11:55
  I did some demos.
• 1:11:56
  You know, I had a booth at the horse expo and that particular county in
• 1:12:01
  Washington, everybody takes their dogs everywhere, including the horse expo.
• 1:12:04
  So it was great.
• 1:12:05
  When I go away to a horse expo, I miss out dogs, so I don't see dogs.
• 1:12:07
  But there were dogs everywhere, people leading dogs around
• 1:12:09
  outside to say hi to all the dogs.
• 1:12:11
  But there was a lady there, had a cat on a leash, on a harness, and she's
• 1:12:15
  walked around with this cat and I was sitting at my booth in a chair behind
• 1:12:19
  the desk, the lady walks past with a cat.
• 1:12:22
  And this cat makes a beeline for me, jumps up on the disc and jumps in
• 1:12:25
  my lap and sucks up against my ab.
• 1:12:28
  And stays there for half an hour while I talk to the lady and the
• 1:12:31
  cat is just sucked up against me.
• 1:12:34
  And she said, the cat's never done this before.
• 1:12:36
  That cat sucked up against my abdomen.
• 1:12:38
  And in the end, you know, she talks for half an hour and she's gotta leave.
• 1:12:41
  She's actually gotta pick the cat up by the scruff of the neck, like
• 1:12:43
  a kitten to get the cat off my lap.
• 1:12:46
  but that was the first time I'd felt emotions, felt energy in my, in my body.
• 1:12:54
  Rupert Isaacson: And what were the emotions would you
• 1:12:56
  say that you were feeling?
• 1:12:58
  Warwick Schiller: Well, that's a good question.
• 1:12:59
  If you've never had, see how do you know what an emotion is?
• 1:13:04
  You have something happen, you have an energy inside you, and it's
• 1:13:07
  connected to, oh, we're at there, I was happy or at there I was sad or
• 1:13:11
  at, I've never had those, so what they meant to me, I had no idea.
• 1:13:16
  Rupert Isaacson: But were they were, did you feel they were positive or?
• 1:13:20
  Warwick Schiller: Positive.
• 1:13:20
  Okay.
• 1:13:21
  They were positive.
• 1:13:21
  Yes, they were positive.
• 1:13:22
  They weren't, they definitely weren't negative.
• 1:13:24
  but you know, if you gave me the whole scale of emotions and the
• 1:13:28
  positive emotions, it said, which one of these wasn't like, I got no idea.
• 1:13:30
  It was just, it
• 1:13:31
  Rupert Isaacson: was right.
• 1:13:32
  But you weren't suddenly beset with negative emotions, for example.
• 1:13:35
  No, no, no.
• 1:13:35
  It was, it was in the direction of joy.
• 1:13:37
  Warwick Schiller: No, I think I had a pretty good handle
• 1:13:39
  on the negative emotions.
• 1:13:41
  Right.
• 1:13:41
  Uh, but it was, for me, it was fascinating.
• 1:13:43
  Like, I've never felt this in my entire life.
• 1:13:46
  And I don't remember that class at school where the teacher said, okay, if you're
• 1:13:50
  a fully functioning human being, you will have these energies in your abdomen.
• 1:13:54
  They'll move up and down and here and there, and sometimes they'll feel
• 1:13:56
  good and sometimes they'll feel bad.
• 1:13:58
  Do you remember that class at school?
• 1:14:00
  No, because we don't have it.
• 1:14:01
  So,
• 1:14:02
  Rupert Isaacson: no.
• 1:14:02
  English schools when I was a boy, no.
• 1:14:05
  they, so,
• 1:14:06
  Warwick Schiller: you know what I mean?
• 1:14:06
  I remember that.
• 1:14:07
  But yeah.
• 1:14:07
  Yeah.
• 1:14:07
  I didn't know.
• 1:14:09
  I, I always thought emotions were thoughts.
• 1:14:11
  Like if, you know, if someone said, oh, someone ran over my dog,
• 1:14:14
  I'd go, oh, I feel sorry for you.
• 1:14:16
  I didn't feel sorry for them.
• 1:14:18
  I thought, sorry for them.
• 1:14:20
  In my head, I was like, oh, yes, that would not be good.
• 1:14:22
  But I didn't get a visceral sensation from someone saying, A truck went over my dog.
• 1:14:30
  I didn't, oh, I didn't feel it.
• 1:14:32
  Even though I would say, oh, I feel sorry for you.
• 1:14:34
  I didn't feel, and so it was fascinating for me to be, I
• 1:14:38
  was 50 years old at the time.
• 1:14:40
  Fascinating for me.
• 1:14:43
  At 50 years old have sensations in my body.
• 1:14:46
  I've never had, or at least I haven't had since before.
• 1:14:50
  Memory, you know, my earliest memories were about five, so before that, but
• 1:14:54
  things were pretty shut and, and stuck.
• 1:14:59
  And what was interesting was it was a psychedelic that got it working, which
• 1:15:03
  gave me an interest in psychedelics.
• 1:15:06
  I, you know, I had never thought it,
• 1:15:07
  Rupert Isaacson: was it psychedelic or was it the n a d do you think?
• 1:15:10
  Or the, the converter?
• 1:15:11
  It was the
• 1:15:11
  Warwick Schiller: psychedelic, probably the combo of the two, but yeah.
• 1:15:13
  And so my next, so after that I'm like, I'd heard a lot
• 1:15:16
  about this ayahuasca thing.
• 1:15:18
  And so the next thing I did was went to Florida to a, a
• 1:15:21
  three day ayahuasca ceremony.
• 1:15:24
  And that dipped away a bit.
• 1:15:25
  And I've, you know, I've tried, a number of different psychedelics
• 1:15:30
  Rupert Isaacson: since then.
• 1:15:30
  All Let's, let's go to the aas.
• 1:15:31
  What happens to you with the Ayahuasca?
• 1:15:33
  And again, explain.
• 1:15:34
  We, we tend to assume that people know what ayahuasca is.
• 1:15:37
  Let's assume that people dunno what ayahuasca is, what is it?
• 1:15:40
  And then
• 1:15:40
  Warwick Schiller: Aya Ayahuasca's a, a psychedelic from, I think it's
• 1:15:45
  from the Amazon Basin originally.
• 1:15:46
  And it's made from, it's made from two plants that grow in the Amazon.
• 1:15:50
  You think about it, there's a million different species of plants in the
• 1:15:52
  Amazon, and they take a vine and they take a leaf from a different plant.
• 1:15:57
  So there's a, one's a vine, one's a leaf, they put 'em in a pot, boil 'em together,
• 1:16:01
  and they take the vine, I think, and they bid it with a stick until it kind of
• 1:16:04
  goes into a mashy, puy sort of a thing.
• 1:16:08
  The most powerful psychedelic in the world is something
• 1:16:11
  called D m t Dimethyltryptamine.
• 1:16:13
  Yeah.
• 1:16:14
  And the combination of these two things.
• 1:16:17
  So one of the plants has the dimethyltryptamine in it, but you,
• 1:16:20
  your body can't access it until it's unlocked by this other plant.
• 1:16:24
  But what's interesting is, so the shamans in the Amazon would use this stuff
• 1:16:28
  to, to journey and things like that.
• 1:16:30
  But what's interesting is if they, you asked the, the shamans in the Amazon,
• 1:16:34
  how did you guys figure out how to, which two plants out of a million
• 1:16:38
  plant species to put together, how did you figure out how to do that?
• 1:16:41
  And they said, oh, that's easy.
• 1:16:42
  The plants told us.
• 1:16:43
  Yeah.
• 1:16:45
  and so you drink it, it's a black, dark, brown thick liquid
• 1:16:51
  that has the most bitter taste.
• 1:16:53
  It's foul.
• 1:16:55
  Um, you, you drink, you drink this liquid, and then probably an hour or
• 1:17:00
  so later you, you sit somewhere or lay somewhere and about an hour or so later,
• 1:17:03
  you start having this inward journey.
• 1:17:06
  And really, what the ayahuasca, at least for me, what it did was it peels you
• 1:17:15
  opened where you look into all the dark places that, and this was for me at least,
• 1:17:21
  all the dark places and all the shame and the self-loathing and stuff that you have,
• 1:17:26
  that you've never, that you've avoided.
• 1:17:29
  Looking at, for me, it took me there and I think all the psychedelics
• 1:17:32
  have done, have taken me there.
• 1:17:34
  Um, with the, with the exception of the ketamine.
• 1:17:39
  Yeah, the ketamine, there was none of that.
• 1:17:40
  There was, there was none of that.
• 1:17:41
  All it was was just this kaleidoscopic.
• 1:17:46
  But there was no self-judgment.
• 1:17:47
  There was no, yeah, there was none of that in that.
• 1:17:49
  But anyway, so the Ayahuasca, it was three separate ceremonies.
• 1:17:53
  One Friday night, one Saturday lunchtime, one Saturday night.
• 1:17:56
  And, , yeah, that was part of the start of my healing journey, I think.
• 1:18:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Now, when it took you, when it took you down into self-loathing
• 1:18:03
  and shame, did that bring, why did that not bring you into despair?
• 1:18:07
  why did that not make you wanna harm yourself in some way?
• 1:18:10
  Punish yourself in some way?
• 1:18:12
  What, how was
• 1:18:13
  Warwick Schiller: that positive?
• 1:18:15
  Well, what the ayahuasca does, so when you, even before you take the Ayahuasca,
• 1:18:20
  they give you a small waste paper bin, plastic waste paper bin a hold.
• 1:18:24
  And they said, don't go anywhere without that.
• 1:18:26
  And what happens with the ayahuasca is stuck.
• 1:18:30
  Emotions come up in your, like in your abdomen.
• 1:18:35
  , and you, they, they come up as emotions and then you purge them.
• 1:18:39
  So you, there's a lot of puking with ayahuasca.
• 1:18:43
  and, you know, so you'd be, you know, fear, self-loathing, shame,
• 1:18:47
  whatever it is, will come up in your mind and then you feel it in your.
• 1:18:53
  And then you purge that and it, and it, yeah, it is working
• 1:18:57
  through stuff, you know,
• 1:19:00
  Rupert Isaacson: and when you purge it, does that feel cathartic?
• 1:19:03
  Yes.
• 1:19:03
  Is there a joy?
• 1:19:04
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 1:19:05
  Yes.
• 1:19:06
  It's like, I've finally got that thing outta me, but then,
• 1:19:07
  then the next one comes up.
• 1:19:08
  All right.
• 1:19:09
  Okay.
• 1:19:09
  You know, some people, some people with ayahuasca just have, they have experiences
• 1:19:15
  to where they have interactions with other beings, other entities,
• 1:19:19
  the universe, the divine, whatever.
• 1:19:21
  I have not ever had that.
• 1:19:22
  All mine has been, all of my experiences have been like, fear,
• 1:19:28
  shame, wording, all that sort of stuff.
• 1:19:30
  You've gone
• 1:19:30
  Rupert Isaacson: back and done ayahuasca since
• 1:19:31
  Warwick Schiller: this first time?
• 1:19:32
  No, I haven't.
• 1:19:33
  No I haven't.
• 1:19:34
  But I have done some other, , plant medicines
• 1:19:36
  Rupert Isaacson: and those plant, those same plant med, the other plant medicines
• 1:19:39
  have also taken you to, to shame and self.
• 1:19:42
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 1:19:42
  Dark, dark places, but, but worked through them.
• 1:19:45
  last year I did a, they call a God dose of mushrooms, of psilocybin
• 1:19:50
  mushrooms, like five and a half grams, which is a big dose.
• 1:19:53
  And yeah, there was a lot of similar stuff.
• 1:19:59
  And what I, what being emotionally stuck, I've always thought that what
• 1:20:03
  was gonna happen with any of these plant medicines with me is I was gonna
• 1:20:07
  have this big cathartic released where I was gonna cry and ball my eyes out.
• 1:20:11
  Like really sobbing.
• 1:20:14
  And that has not happened.
• 1:20:16
  And I keep kind of judging these experiences cuz they haven't happened.
• 1:20:18
  But with the, the, psilocybin was last year.
• 1:20:21
  So I had, I had two guides with me, a husband and wife.
• 1:20:25
  you know, so this was this, you know, with psychedelics they talk about set
• 1:20:28
  and setting and, and this was, you know, we had the intention of healing.
• 1:20:32
  This is what we're gonna do.
• 1:20:33
  I was actually on a camp stretcher in the middle of a pasture under a tree.
• 1:20:37
  And we had a play, a playlist of music.
• 1:20:40
  I took the medicine as a tea and then it started to hit.
• 1:20:44
  Come in, I lay on the thing and the, the lady she sat beside, first
• 1:20:47
  Rupert Isaacson: time you'd ever done mushrooms and you take the God ducks.
• 1:20:49
  Yeah.
• 1:20:49
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 1:20:50
  Okay.
• 1:20:51
  And she talks me through a, like a, like a, a breath work.
• 1:20:56
  Cuz when the start of the, the psilocybin kicks in, it can be kind of scary.
• 1:21:00
  And so she kind of had led me through this breath work till I got through the,
• 1:21:04
  well, supposedly through the scary part.
• 1:21:06
  But, Gary than a.
• 1:21:09
  I'd say different.
• 1:21:10
  I wouldn't, I think fear is fear.
• 1:21:11
  No.
• 1:21:11
  Not more scary.
• 1:21:12
  Not less scary.
• 1:21:13
  Yeah.
• 1:21:14
  Probably, actually, probably more scary cuz the, I was, the scary part was
• 1:21:18
  just the looking at my own fear and loathing and all that sort of stuff.
• 1:21:22
  Whereas this was actually a scary situation.
• 1:21:26
  But, so she sat there with me and if I needed her to hold
• 1:21:29
  my hand, she'd hold my hand.
• 1:21:30
  At one point in time, I had a, like, I had a blanket over me and I had her
• 1:21:34
  hopping beside me and like, spoon me.
• 1:21:36
  And, you know, I felt I needed that feminine energy there, but I kept telling
• 1:21:39
  her, it's not happening, it's not coming.
• 1:21:43
  It's not coming.
• 1:21:43
  I'm not, I'm, I, I feel like I should be crying and I'm not.
• 1:21:49
  but anyway, so the next day I was somewhere and I took a breath, took
• 1:21:53
  a big, deep breath in, and, you know, all my life I've been able to
• 1:21:56
  take a certain depth of breath in.
• 1:21:58
  And that's my breath, you know?
• 1:22:00
  Well this, the next day I took this breath in and in and in and in.
• 1:22:08
  It's like something had let go in my abdomen that had been clamping, that
• 1:22:12
  had that not allowed me to take a full breath ever in my entire life.
• 1:22:19
  And I breathed in and in and in and in and in.
• 1:22:21
  And it was almost twice as big a breath as I've ever taken.
• 1:22:23
  And when I let that breath out, I completely relaxed.
• 1:22:27
  Like.
• 1:22:29
  And that relaxed feeling was like, I dunno if I've ever felt
• 1:22:32
  that relaxed in my entire life.
• 1:22:33
  So something during that journey, let go.
• 1:22:37
  somewhere in there.
• 1:22:41
  Rupert Isaacson: This was how long ago?
• 1:22:43
  Mm, last July, I think.
• 1:22:44
  Okay.
• 1:22:45
  When we worked together in the sweat lodge, with the pay ot, did you
• 1:22:50
  feel shame and self-loathing then?
• 1:22:53
  Warwick Schiller: No, I didn't journey at all there.
• 1:22:55
  I didn't, it
• 1:22:56
  Rupert Isaacson: didn't seem to me that you did.
• 1:22:57
  Warwick Schiller: No, I didn't, I didn't journey at all then.
• 1:22:59
  I was, you know, I was probably a bit too in my head there, you know, like we,
• 1:23:05
  I've never done a sweat lodge before.
• 1:23:07
  I have no idea how they, how they work and, you know, and the, the
• 1:23:10
  shaman guy says, okay, so you've, you know, we're gonna sing a
• 1:23:14
  song, you know, what's your song?
• 1:23:15
  And you sing a song.
• 1:23:16
  And Joel sang a song.
• 1:23:18
  And I'm like, I'm s sitting there thinking, uh, what should I sing?
• 1:23:20
  No, no, I don't have a song and I can't sing.
• 1:23:22
  I, I suck at singing anyway, you know, but what if I sing?
• 1:23:25
  I could sing a song, but no, but it might not be the right song
• 1:23:27
  and they might think I'm stupid.
• 1:23:28
  You know, all of that.
• 1:23:29
  So I was really in my head in that, that, in that whole, experience.
• 1:23:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
• 1:23:38
  Because for me what happened there was, first it felt like a small little
• 1:23:44
  infrared tracking device, like you'd get in a PowerPoint going through my body.
• 1:23:50
  . and it stopped at every point where there was physical pain.
• 1:23:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:54
  of injuries and stiffnesses and that sort of thing.
• 1:23:56
  And we're just gonna go, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
• 1:23:58
  And then that pain would go and then it would move on.
• 1:24:02
  And when it had, gone through my obvious spots, my mostly on my right
• 1:24:06
  side, it went up into my brain and it went to every area of my brain that, I
• 1:24:14
  was feeling difficulty in blockage.
• 1:24:18
  And we go, beep, beep, beep gone, and then we'll move on.
• 1:24:22
  And, I remember thinking, well, this is, this is wonderful, but it won't last.
• 1:24:28
  It totally lasted.
• 1:24:31
  so it's interesting the different experiences I have not done, D M
• 1:24:36
  T except possibly the natural D M T that gets produced in the human brain.
• 1:24:42
  Those of you who don't know, you don't have to take a plant.
• 1:24:46
  although it's very difficult to induce enough D M T in your brain to have those
• 1:24:53
  religious experiences, what people would call them, but your pineal gland, which
• 1:24:56
  produces your melatonin, the melatonin can under certain conditions if it gets
• 1:25:02
  enough squeezing with ceal spinal fluid.
• 1:25:06
  Transduce energy can transduce, into the, the crystals that
• 1:25:10
  are inside the pineal ground.
• 1:25:11
  It'll salt crystals and they'll throw up a, a high electric charge that
• 1:25:15
  will change the melatonin into D M T.
• 1:25:18
  And then that transduction of energy can make people see things
• 1:25:25
  or hear things or whatever.
• 1:25:26
  And some people say, oh, well that's not real then it's just the D M T.
• 1:25:29
  Or one could say, ah, is the D M T allowing you to see
• 1:25:33
  and hear what is coming in?
• 1:25:36
  The answer is, we don't know.
• 1:25:37
  But, that seems to be a process with, well, we, we know it's a
• 1:25:42
  process within the human body.
• 1:25:43
  What's interesting to me is that when you've gone down this road with D M
• 1:25:47
  T, which for those who haven't, it's extreme, without a doubt, it's extreme.
• 1:25:52
  and despite the fact that it's taken you to some dark places,
• 1:25:55
  why do you think that it hasn't taken you to the point of despair?
• 1:26:00
  Why has it not taken you to, bad trip psychosis, that sort of thing?
• 1:26:08
  Warwick Schiller: That's a great question.
• 1:26:09
  I, I, I don't, I dunno that, I have no idea about that, but I do wanna,
• 1:26:17
  I didn wanna talk about d m T.
• 1:26:19
  You were talking about Indigo.
• 1:26:21
  Have you ever read a book called D m t The Spirit Molecule?
• 1:26:23
  I have not By a document, by Rick Straussman.
• 1:26:27
  Rick Straussman, and he's a, you know, PhD, Dr.
• 1:26:32
  Dude.
• 1:26:32
  And so back in the eighties, he eighties and nineties, he got
• 1:26:37
  government approval to do high dose, experiments on people with dmt.
• 1:26:42
  Okay.
• 1:26:43
  And so, and that was a bit of, a bit of a circle jerk to where the DEA would
• 1:26:48
  give approval if the F FDA gave approval.
• 1:26:50
  The F FDA A would only give approval that he could find someone who could
• 1:26:53
  synthesize, human quality D M T, but he couldn't find anybody who would
• 1:26:59
  human who synthesize human quality D M T until he got approval from the F fda.
• 1:27:03
  And it was this big old circle joke.
• 1:27:04
  But anyway, he ends up getting it.
• 1:27:07
  and he does all these experiments with people and, you know, it
• 1:27:09
  was like a double blind study.
• 1:27:10
  So sometimes you got a placebo dose, sometimes you got a low dose
• 1:27:14
  and sometimes you got a high dose.
• 1:27:16
  And what was interesting was the experiences of pretty much everybody who
• 1:27:22
  had the high dose were all very much the same reported experience that people have
• 1:27:28
  when they say they're abducted by aliens.
• 1:27:32
  And it's funny, most alien abductions, happen about two or three o'clock
• 1:27:39
  in the morning, usually two people who have been under a lot of stress.
• 1:27:44
  And apparently your pineal gland is most active at about two or
• 1:27:47
  three o'clock in the morning.
• 1:27:48
  And stress does cause more of that.
• 1:27:54
  The end of the book, he gets the point to where he says, you know, you can give
• 1:27:57
  someone an anti narcotic so they can't experience any feelings, anything from
• 1:28:03
  a narcotic, or you can give someone an anti psychedelic and if you give
• 1:28:08
  someone an anti psychedelic, so what he's saying is, we have a certain amount
• 1:28:11
  of D M T in our bodies at all times.
• 1:28:13
  Right?
• 1:28:13
  If you give someone an anti psychedelic, that means that the d m
• 1:28:16
  t that is in your body at the moment you are, it's not affecting you.
• 1:28:21
  You give someone an anti psychedelic, they go immediately into severe depression.
• 1:28:26
  The world is just blah.
• 1:28:29
  Okay?
• 1:28:31
  So that, that's no D M T.
• 1:28:33
  Then the world that we currently live in and we can see is the
• 1:28:39
  amount of DMT our brain puts out.
• 1:28:41
  Okay?
• 1:28:42
  But then, and, and thinking about if you had an FM radio in the room right there
• 1:28:46
  with you, you could turn it on and it could pick up those radio waves that are
• 1:28:49
  going between you and me that you can't see, but they're there, right As the
• 1:28:53
  bald sort, the music playing isn't there.
• 1:28:55
  So then, so at the end of the book, he said, and so what happens is like if
• 1:29:00
  you give someone the anti psychedelic, they have, they're depressed.
• 1:29:05
  There is no, there's nothing coming in from the outside world.
• 1:29:08
  What we are currently having right now is the amount of D M T in our brain, which
• 1:29:11
  allows us to view this level of the world.
• 1:29:14
  If you have huge amounts of D M T and you, you get to, you
• 1:29:19
  get the ability to be aware.
• 1:29:22
  Other stuff that's going on here right now that you can't detect with the amount
• 1:29:26
  of D m t we have in our bodies, but like radio waves, like there's all these
• 1:29:30
  radio, there's all this stuff going on.
• 1:29:32
  Unless you've got an FM receiver or a TV with rabbit ears, whatever, you can't pick
• 1:29:35
  it up, but it doesn't mean it's not there.
• 1:29:37
  Yeah,
• 1:29:37
  Rupert Isaacson: no, absolutely.
• 1:29:38
  It makes perfect sense.
• 1:29:38
  I mean, and we know there's more, colors on the light spectrum.
• 1:29:42
  We know that infrared exists.
• 1:29:43
  We know that blue light exists and we know that there are others.
• 1:29:45
  and we've created devices that can pick them up, but there are only some of them.
• 1:29:49
  We know that elephants, communicate long distance with, frequency so low
• 1:29:53
  that we can't hear them, but we have created devices that can detect it.
• 1:29:56
  We know that all, we suspect that the other dimensions are microscopic and could
• 1:30:03
  be so small that they're undetectable.
• 1:30:06
  We know now that there are things, other types of matter like neutrinos that are
• 1:30:10
  passing through our body, through trillion neutrinos are passing through our bodies
• 1:30:14
  and through the house at any moment that part of the, what they call the weak
• 1:30:17
  force in physics, there's a strong force that binds things together, protons
• 1:30:22
  and electrons and that sort of thing.
• 1:30:23
  And then there's the weak force that allows things to move fluidly.
• 1:30:27
  We don't quite yet understand the dance between them, but we
• 1:30:29
  know that there are, these things exist, but we can't see neutrinos.
• 1:30:33
  We just now know that they're there, through, the physics of the last
• 1:30:37
  20 years and that sort of thing.
• 1:30:38
  So yes, without a doubt.
• 1:30:42
  We are aware of so much more.
• 1:30:44
  And it is interesting, those, those we're, we're aware of so much more
• 1:30:48
  when we can become aware of it.
• 1:30:50
  What's interesting to me is, as you know, as some of the listeners might know,
• 1:30:54
  I lived with, , hunting and gathering tribes, in the Kalahari of Southern
• 1:30:59
  Africa, Bushman, sun Bushman, and was at, and the recipient of, you know,
• 1:31:06
  many healings and then subsequently with my artistic sun and so on and so on.
• 1:31:10
  And, what's interesting about when those cultures, when they're going
• 1:31:16
  into an altered state of consciousness, it's not that it's not an amazing
• 1:31:20
  thing, and it's not that they don't regard it as an amazing thing.
• 1:31:22
  And it's not that they don't regard the frankly un
• 1:31:27
  inexplicable healings that happen.
• 1:31:30
  And they do happen.
• 1:31:31
  People get sick and get better from really quite extreme things, and
• 1:31:36
  have done for hundreds of thousands of years using these techniques.
• 1:31:39
  ias would also be one, but for them, they are also part of the ordinary, or
• 1:31:46
  let's say the ordinary is extraordinary and the extraordinary is ordinary.
• 1:31:49
  And one of the things which I think all of us who've ever gone down to
• 1:31:53
  those areas notices pretty much right away is that unless some bastards
• 1:31:58
  are coming in there and stealing your land and raping your women and
• 1:32:00
  cutting down your forest, Life is good.
• 1:32:04
  And it's not just good because you have enough resources.
• 1:32:07
  It's good because there's a certain level of joy, in this original human
• 1:32:11
  lifestyle, which seems completely taken up with viewing the world in this way
• 1:32:16
  and seeing it through the D m T lens.
• 1:32:18
  we of course, post agriculture shut all that down, because it gets in the way.
• 1:32:24
  If I want to be the patriarch of the church and I want people to pay taxes
• 1:32:29
  to me, and I want people to go and fight my battles and my wars, or I want
• 1:32:32
  to be king, or I want to be the Duke of, you know, Lord Puff buttock over
• 1:32:36
  there, and I want to go to war with, you know, Lord, big nose over there.
• 1:32:41
  And I got to persuade my surfs to go fight for me who are already
• 1:32:46
  effectively enslaved and so on.
• 1:32:48
  I've got to reduce them to a sense of depression where their only
• 1:32:53
  outlet for passion is violence.
• 1:32:56
  And this, of course is how we've run our societies.
• 1:33:00
  And I think when we go back to horse training, to some degree,
• 1:33:04
  that's what we all grew up with.
• 1:33:05
  I mean, we, you know, we, we, we, in fact, we inherited our horse
• 1:33:08
  training from the military, and we went through school systems that were
• 1:33:12
  inherited from the military and so on.
• 1:33:14
  So it's very interesting.
• 1:33:16
  Is it, you know, the God gene or the God molecule as you said,
• 1:33:21
  is it, is it a joy in molecule?
• 1:33:23
  Is, is.
• 1:33:25
  Is the emotion that you were not feeling joy?
• 1:33:35
  Warwick Schiller: Well, I think it was all the higher emotions, but
• 1:33:37
  I just wanna talk a bit more about that book d into the spirit molecule.
• 1:33:41
  So the pioneer gland is the only part of the brain.
• 1:33:45
  So it's, it's the, it's above the roof of the mouth.
• 1:33:49
  It's the only part of the brain that's not made up of brain tissue,
• 1:33:53
  but, and it forms on day 49.
• 1:33:58
  Okay?
• 1:33:58
  The pineal gland forms on day 49, and apparently that's the day, whether it
• 1:34:03
  says you're gonna be a boy or girl, your chromosomes do your things.
• 1:34:07
  Okay, got that.
• 1:34:09
  Now I'm gonna jump ship on dmt the spirit molecule and go to the
• 1:34:13
  way the Buddhist look at things.
• 1:34:14
  So you know what the bardo is?
• 1:34:16
  No.
• 1:34:17
  So in the Buddhist tradition, the bardo is the 49 days that you spend
• 1:34:23
  without, uh, as a soul, without a body before you come back again.
• 1:34:27
  Okay?
• 1:34:28
  Okay.
• 1:34:29
  So once you die,
• 1:34:29
  Rupert Isaacson: in which Buddhist tradition?
• 1:34:30
  In in Tibetan,
• 1:34:32
  Warwick Schiller: no idea.
• 1:34:32
  Okay.
• 1:34:33
  No idea.
• 1:34:34
  I've just read this.
• 1:34:34
  I'm the scholar on this stuff.
• 1:34:36
  Sounds too bad.
• 1:34:37
  This 49 day thing, okay.
• 1:34:40
  49 days after that fetus is conceived, it decides if it's
• 1:34:45
  gonna become a boy or girl.
• 1:34:47
  The pineal gland starts developing then, and.
• 1:34:52
  The Budds say that 49 days after you die, you, you, your soul lives
• 1:34:58
  in the bardo, which is this place without a soul, without a human
• 1:35:02
  form, without a physical form.
• 1:35:03
  And then on day 49, you get given your next physical form.
• 1:35:07
  So you know, a little bit of something to think about.
• 1:35:10
  Something else about D M T.
• 1:35:11
  Have you ever read a book called The Cosmic Serpent?
• 1:35:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Nope.
• 1:35:16
  I'm writing these down and at the end, so the cosmic serpent tell
• 1:35:19
  us about all these books in order
• 1:35:21
  Warwick Schiller: this anthropologist guy goes to the Peru to study the tribes
• 1:35:26
  there, and while he is there, they end up talking to him to doing, uh, ayahuasca.
• 1:35:30
  Is this Way Dead?
• 1:35:33
  Oh, sounds familiar.
• 1:35:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Anyway, keep, keep going.
• 1:35:38
  Yeah, we can look it up as we talk.
• 1:35:40
  Warwick Schiller: no.
• 1:35:41
  All right.
• 1:35:43
  Jeremy Nay is
• 1:35:45
  Rupert Isaacson: who the book Jeremy Nay.
• 1:35:46
  Cosmic Serpent because, , the Serpent and the Rainbow by, , Wayback
• 1:35:49
  is worth, is worth a look at.
• 1:35:51
  Okay, but go on
• 1:35:51
  Warwick Schiller: Jeremy.
• 1:35:53
  Yeah, so the cosmic serpent and, and so he, he has this AO Oscar experience
• 1:35:58
  and he sees snakes, intertwined snakes in this vision that he has
• 1:36:04
  very colorful, intertwined snakes.
• 1:36:06
  And then he sees these ladders as well.
• 1:36:08
  And then he, you know, Over the years, he starts researching.
• 1:36:12
  He gets this idea about altered states of consciousness, whether
• 1:36:15
  it was from ayahuasca or meditation or chanting or whatever it is.
• 1:36:20
  But in all of the, the shamanic traditions, there is always
• 1:36:24
  these intertwined snakes.
• 1:36:26
  Yeah.
• 1:36:27
  Even in Siberia.
• 1:36:30
  Okay.
• 1:36:31
  Where snakes don't exist, the, they've the, you know, the people of Siberia
• 1:36:35
  had never seen a snake, but part of their tradition of, from the shamans
• 1:36:39
  is there's this intertwined snakes.
• 1:36:42
  And so then he takes a bit of a turn and he basically says that when they
• 1:36:50
  decipher d n A, you know, and the two guys that figured out that decoded
• 1:36:55
  the D, the d n a, what he's, what he's trying to say in his book is that, We
• 1:37:01
  had to see it under a microscope, whereas the, all the shamans for centuries
• 1:37:05
  back for eon, you know, millenniums back had seen that in their visions.
• 1:37:11
  So basically that, that they had decoded d n a way before we ever had microscopes.
• 1:37:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:37:17
  You know, you, you are familiar with the caduceus, the, uh, entwined snakes
• 1:37:21
  Warwick Schiller: as the, of, of the veterinarian.
• 1:37:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:37:24
  Right.
• 1:37:24
  Yeah.
• 1:37:25
  And it, that seems to come from the Hindu, which seems to come from, you
• 1:37:29
  know, it, it comes to the Greeks.
• 1:37:30
  To the Egyptians, but before that it seems to come from, Babylon, Sumeria,
• 1:37:36
  and then it goes to the Hindu as well.
• 1:37:38
  And it seems that that's an allegory for the, two points of the cerebral
• 1:37:43
  spinal fluid coming up into the middle ventricle of the brain, which of
• 1:37:46
  course is where the pineal gland sits.
• 1:37:49
  and interestingly, when one looks at the sacred art of Sumaria Babylon, or
• 1:37:56
  the Mesopotamia down into Egypt, Egypt, and then you get a little bit going into
• 1:38:01
  Greece, and so you see two, motifs, a pine cone, Pineland is called that.
• 1:38:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:38:10
  , you know, because looks like shaped like a pine cone and
• 1:38:12
  a bag, a little bag of tools.
• 1:38:17
  And it seems that this could be, we don't know, an allegory
• 1:38:21
  for the gift of consciousness.
• 1:38:27
  To specifically create megalithic civilizations, agriculture, and so forth.
• 1:38:34
  Then you can get into very strange stuff of people saying, well, this comes
• 1:38:37
  down from aliens and because mm-hmm.
• 1:38:39
  guess what the sums actually said that it did.
• 1:38:42
  So the earliest, historical writings we've got, be they historical or
• 1:38:48
  mythological or some mixture of the two come from Sumaria and they were discovered
• 1:38:52
  in the 1840s, translated in the 1890s.
• 1:38:55
  They're still sitting in Oxford University, about 30,000 of them.
• 1:38:58
  They chip away at them.
• 1:38:59
  Some of them are boring things like, you know, lists of 12 handbags,
• 1:39:04
  you know, 26 bushels of this, or a contract for an apartment.
• 1:39:08
  Others are epic poems.
• 1:39:09
  That's where we've got Gilgamesh from and the rest.
• 1:39:12
  And another bit is this gift, list of kings who they say came from the sky,
• 1:39:18
  Anki, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, be all this as it may, whether these were
• 1:39:23
  D m t induced, visions or actually happened or something to do with the two.
• 1:39:29
  It seems that, that, it's very interesting to me that that motif
• 1:39:33
  gets repeated over so many cultures in so many parts of the world.
• 1:39:39
  As you say, there they are in Siberia with no snakes yet there they are with
• 1:39:44
  the entwined serpent to the middle of ventricle of the brain and the pine cone.
• 1:39:48
  you have activated your d m.
• 1:39:51
  I would say on numerous occasions by now, would, would you say so?
• 1:39:56
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 1:39:57
  Well, I don't think I've talked to you since, but I've started having, so
• 1:40:00
  there's a, there's a, there is a, oh, let me finish, about cosmic serpent.
• 1:40:05
  So at the end of the book, basically he, his thing is that human form
• 1:40:10
  came to this planet from outer space and it was some sort of reptile,
• 1:40:15
  Rupert Isaacson: right?
• 1:40:15
  This is the whole Anki thing.
• 1:40:17
  And he, that's, that's what he's getting
• 1:40:18
  Warwick Schiller: at
• 1:40:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Serpent Yeah.
• 1:40:19
  As wisdom and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:40:21
  Yeah.
• 1:40:21
  Warwick Schiller: Uh, so the, I have had these experiences in the last six
• 1:40:27
  months to where, so there's a place when you are on a, in psychedelics
• 1:40:31
  where you're going to this world.
• 1:40:35
  That's not this world, it's like a world of energy.
• 1:40:39
  It is, if this is 3d, it feels 4d and it feels more real in this place.
• 1:40:44
  So I've had some spontaneous non psychedelic assisted experiences with this
• 1:40:52
  to where I, first time was in the middle.
• 1:40:55
  I, I'd had Covid.
• 1:40:56
  I got Covid.
• 1:40:57
  I was in traveling last year, got Covid, spent six days in
• 1:41:00
  the hotel room and flew home.
• 1:41:02
  And it was past the day I should be shedding it, but I was still,
• 1:41:05
  the PO test was still positive.
• 1:41:06
  So Robin had me sleeping in the horse trailer.
• 1:41:08
  So I'm just outside confined at the horse trailer.
• 1:41:12
  And I was laying on the bed in there at about three o'clock one afternoon.
• 1:41:16
  and suddenly the right side of my body went into that space.
• 1:41:22
  So I'm, look, I'm, I'm laying there and I can see the two realities.
• 1:41:26
  There's the one on my left, which is this one we're in right now, and then
• 1:41:29
  this other side, the right side of my body is just vibrating and it, I can
• 1:41:33
  see it right there and I get the feeling that they've come for me and this is it.
• 1:41:39
  And if I let myself go into it, this will disappear forever and
• 1:41:43
  it scares the shit outta me.
• 1:41:44
  And I pull back and it disappears.
• 1:41:47
  So I call a friend of mine who is a, psychedelic assisted therapist
• 1:41:50
  and I'm like, dude, what's going on?
• 1:41:53
  And he goes, oh, that scared the hell outta me.
• 1:41:55
  And I call him and he goes, oh, that's great.
• 1:41:57
  Some people can go into those places, on their own without any assistance.
• 1:42:03
  He said, but it's very scary to do when you are alone.
• 1:42:07
  And he said, you know, it's often better if there's someone there
• 1:42:11
  to hold your hand or whatever.
• 1:42:13
  Anyways, so when I got done with the horse trailer and I was allowed
• 1:42:16
  back in the house, I said to Robin, my wife, I told her about it.
• 1:42:20
  And I said, if we are sitting around sometime and I feel it coming
• 1:42:23
  on, if I just hold your hand and.
• 1:42:27
  I'm going there, can I go and you wanna say, yes, all I want
• 1:42:30
  you to do is just hold my hand.
• 1:42:31
  She's like, okay.
• 1:42:32
  So it was about four days later, we were sitting, we're actually having
• 1:42:35
  a deeper, meaningful conversation.
• 1:42:37
  She was sitting on the couch facing me.
• 1:42:38
  I was sitting on our coffee table facing her, our little dog, Holden
• 1:42:42
  was on the couch beside Robin.
• 1:42:44
  And all of a sudden I felt it coming on a little bit and I said, Hey, it's coming.
• 1:42:48
  Can I go there?
• 1:42:48
  And she said, sure.
• 1:42:49
  So I relaxed instead of drawing back, I kind of relaxed into it, and this might
• 1:42:53
  sound crazy to some people or maybe all people, but Robin and Holden and the couch
• 1:42:59
  turned into a hologram to where I could see through them, they were still there,
• 1:43:04
  but I could see through them everything else in the room was, was this reality.
• 1:43:08
  But they were glowing golden.
• 1:43:11
  She was still talking to me.
• 1:43:11
  She's, she was who she was, but she, oh, she would see through
• 1:43:14
  when she was glowing, golden so was the dog, and so was the couch.
• 1:43:18
  And I'm just chatting to her and I'm, and then all of a sudden it went away.
• 1:43:22
  But I've had a number of experiences, like that, that were
• 1:43:29
  not induced with, with psychedelics.
• 1:43:33
  And I'm, I'm, I'm unsure what it means, but they, it's getting, it's getting,
• 1:43:40
  easier to allow myself to go that way.
• 1:43:42
  I feel it coming on instead of going, oh shit, that's a scary place.
• 1:43:45
  I kind of, kind of go.
• 1:43:48
  And I had one here a while ago to where, when I came back from that, I
• 1:43:52
  was like, oh, I'm, I'm good with it now.
• 1:43:55
  These, these two realities exist at the same time, and I don't, I, I didn't
• 1:44:00
  feel scared going there, and I know why.
• 1:44:03
  I didn't feel scared going there.
• 1:44:04
  I haven't told you this bit.
• 1:44:05
  So I, the person I mentioned before who's a psychedelic assisted
• 1:44:11
  psychotherapist, he hooked me up with an underground M D M A therapist.
• 1:44:18
  And so last, just after Christmas last year, just before New Year, I went and
• 1:44:21
  did a, a underground couple of days with this underground M D M A therapist.
• 1:44:26
  And basically the fear left me and s I've only, I think I've only had one of those
• 1:44:31
  crazy journeys since then, but when it came, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm good.
• 1:44:37
  I can just, I can just let go and, and flow into it.
• 1:44:42
  But it's, it is more real than this, more real than this reality.
• 1:44:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
• 1:44:48
  you know, a cynic, not a skeptic, a cynic would say, oh, that's, you've just now
• 1:44:52
  taken so many psychedelics that you've now, you're now, having flashbacks.
• 1:44:58
  What would you say to that?
• 1:45:01
  Warwick Schiller: No, they're not flashbacks because it's not, it
• 1:45:04
  is a, it is a, when you go, when you go there, you are energy.
• 1:45:09
  So you are vibrating a bazillion miles an hour like your.
• 1:45:15
  Like you, what's what's interesting is I'm still in my,
• 1:45:18
  I can still be aware of my body.
• 1:45:19
  I can still aware of my body buzzing, but I'm not, I don't
• 1:45:22
  have a body in that space, but I can feel my body buzzing, now.
• 1:45:26
  Yeah.
• 1:45:27
  Well, asy can say whatever they want, I mean, right.
• 1:45:29
  If I had to talk to me five years ago and said some of this stuff
• 1:45:31
  always, you are a whack job.
• 1:45:33
  But I've ex I've experienced it and, yeah.
• 1:45:36
  I mean, well, and well, if a, an extent you've done so many psychedelics.
• 1:45:40
  I would say I've done five exactly.
• 1:45:43
  Once each.
• 1:45:44
  I've done, I've done, I've done five, yes.
• 1:45:47
  I've done five one time each.
• 1:45:51
  And some people do 'em, you know, every weekend.
• 1:45:53
  You know, like MDMA gone, a RAVs or whatever.
• 1:45:56
  I, I've only ever done 'em in healing situations with a lot of intention.
• 1:46:00
  and I, but if a cynic said that to me, I wouldn't even argue with 'em.
• 1:46:03
  I wouldn't try to make my point because they've got no
• 1:46:07
  frame of reference to my point.
• 1:46:10
  But I do have a frame of reference to their point, because six or seven years
• 1:46:13
  ago, I would've had the same thoughts.
• 1:46:14
  So I, I, I get where they're coming from.
• 1:46:16
  Rupert Isaacson: What I find interesting.
• 1:46:18
  Well, obviously the whole thing is interesting.
• 1:46:21
  Again, going back to experiences living with hunting and gathering peoples for
• 1:46:26
  whom this is part of normality, albeit a very joyful, intense normality.
• 1:46:32
  I've in, not spontaneously outside of rituals.
• 1:46:39
  I mean, I've had the odd out body experience, so that's something,
• 1:46:41
  but that's not so unusual.
• 1:46:43
  but I have had experiences where I've fell into what they
• 1:46:46
  would call the spirit world.
• 1:46:48
  and then was aware of myself sitting in the room or sitting in the heart
• 1:46:53
  or wherever, while also looking at a completely different reality, almost
• 1:46:58
  superimposed upon that reality.
• 1:47:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:47:00
  . And, both times the sham and the healer noticed, reached in and pulled
• 1:47:04
  me out and just said, don't go there without training, because you are
• 1:47:09
  gonna encounter, things from the human psyche that you're not ready for yet.
• 1:47:13
  and that's why we have a training process for this.
• 1:47:15
  but it's quite natural to fall into it.
• 1:47:17
  But of course, when a hunter is, going after Kudu, they must become kudu.
• 1:47:23
  when you said, how did these Amazonian tribes know which plant?
• 1:47:28
  Well, the plants told them?
• 1:47:30
  I've been told very similar things.
• 1:47:32
  For example, I remember in my first weeks with the bush.
• 1:47:37
  Observing how they could determine where animals were at a distance
• 1:47:43
  from their camps and asking them how.
• 1:47:46
  And they said, oh, well, you know, we, we dance, the healers dance.
• 1:47:48
  And then we ask, go to, then they go ask the animals where they are and the
• 1:47:52
  animals sail or we're over here or, and I, and I also said, how, how's it, you
• 1:47:56
  don't run into lion so often cuz we're in lion country, central Kalahari game
• 1:48:01
  reserve, very aggressive lions there.
• 1:48:04
  And they said, oh, again, yeah, no, we dance and we, we make
• 1:48:07
  contact with the lions and we ask 'em where they're gonna be.
• 1:48:08
  We go the other way.
• 1:48:10
  And they would say this sort of thing in a very matter of fact, sort of a
• 1:48:15
  way, and then sort of immediately talk about the fact that their toe hurt or
• 1:48:21
  the roof needed mending or whatever.
• 1:48:24
  Warwick Schiller: Right.
• 1:48:24
  It was like they, I put it in my GP p s in my phone.
• 1:48:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:48:27
  Exactly.
• 1:48:28
  Which it came out like that would be pretty, magical if we were
• 1:48:31
  looking at it from even an early 20th century, perspective, a
• 1:48:35
  gp s in a phone or the phone.
• 1:48:38
  So one of the things which I love about conversations like this is it reminds
• 1:48:45
  us that miracle is an everyday thing.
• 1:48:48
  and going back to horses, I, I feel that it's miraculous
• 1:48:52
  that we can even ride horses.
• 1:48:54
  I feel that it is a shamanic experience because we had to
• 1:48:57
  get over, we have to shape.
• 1:49:00
  , we have to come out of ourselves as something that wants to eat the horse.
• 1:49:04
  and now we are getting to a point in horsemanship where we have to
• 1:49:07
  come out of ourselves as someone who simply wants to use the horse.
• 1:49:10
  This is something quite new in our consciousness, even as horse people.
• 1:49:14
  It is really the last tw 30 years or so, that it's not just a practical use
• 1:49:19
  thing, it's to do with more than that.
• 1:49:21
  It's getting back to more towards the hunter-gatherer thing, where
• 1:49:23
  you don't just hunt and kill.
• 1:49:25
  You have a, a, a full-on relationship with the animals.
• 1:49:28
  or the healing dancers of the Bushman are using certain animal energies,
• 1:49:33
  shapeshifting into animals, not just for hunting, also for healing or for
• 1:49:37
  all sorts of things because of course we're organisms, tied up with the
• 1:49:41
  other organisms in a world of organisms.
• 1:49:44
  and to feel that we're separated from them, of course, is a great illusion.
• 1:49:50
  But nonetheless, it's the illusion we've been, trained into.
• 1:49:55
  and when I've been with, really, you talked about being, seeing
• 1:50:01
  the hologram or the energy of Robin and the dog on the couch.
• 1:50:06
  the really good senior healers can exist in the trance, the deep healing
• 1:50:13
  trance where they're talking to ancestor spirits and pulling cancers
• 1:50:17
  out of people's bodies and doing that sort of thing while at the same.
• 1:50:21
  Having a, a cigarette and sort of chatting to someone else over there,
• 1:50:24
  and you can see in flickering of the eye muscles and this sort of thing as they're
• 1:50:30
  going between one and the other and beginning to handle it very gracefully.
• 1:50:34
  you, you made the, an analogy of ice skating with horses almost like an ice
• 1:50:38
  skater, sort of psychic ice skater going effortlessly between these realities.
• 1:50:44
  it seems that you have through this horse who bounces back legs, , taken somewhat of
• 1:50:53
  an interesting journey into the world of organisms and what's beyond organisms and
• 1:51:00
  what we can perceive and what we can't.
• 1:51:02
  How has this affected your horsemanship?
• 1:51:04
  Have you had, these experiences now in the dual realities or seeing the
• 1:51:11
  real realities around or on horses?
• 1:51:14
  Warwick Schiller: No, no, no.
• 1:51:18
  Not . Not yet.
• 1:51:19
  Not yet.
• 1:51:20
  Not yet.
• 1:51:20
  Yeah.
• 1:51:20
  I did when I did the, psilocybin journey, , last year was that a was
• 1:51:26
  actually at a horse place in Oregon.
• 1:51:29
  And,
• 1:51:29
  , I, most of it was a inward journey.
• 1:51:31
  Like I was, my eyes were closed, you know, I was laying under, under a blanket.
• 1:51:34
  But later on when I kind of came outta that and, I said,
• 1:51:37
  I wanna go see the horses.
• 1:51:40
  And so we go out in the past for the horses, so I was wearing shorts and
• 1:51:42
  socks and hiking boots, and I had these, I had these socks on that I bought.
• 1:51:50
  I was in Montana last year and I did a clinic there.
• 1:51:52
  And, and, I went into this, the next day I went into this, you
• 1:51:55
  know, trading post sort of a thing.
• 1:51:57
  And I had these really cool Native American design socks,
• 1:52:01
  Rupert Isaacson: special Montana socks.
• 1:52:03
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 1:52:04
  And these socks were ridiculously expensive.
• 1:52:07
  Like they were 30 bucks a pair for socks or something that might be, not be
• 1:52:11
  ridiculously expensive, but for me it is.
• 1:52:12
  And I'd buy six pack of socks for three bottles.
• 1:52:15
  You know what I mean?
• 1:52:15
  So these are, these are basically the, these are fu money
• 1:52:19
  socks, you know what I mean?
• 1:52:20
  Like, no one needs to spend 30 bucks on a pair of socks, even though some
• 1:52:23
  people with lots of money might spend a hundred bucks on a pair of socks.
• 1:52:26
  But for me, lot of money, a pair spent on a pair of socks.
• 1:52:29
  So I've got these fu money socks, I've spent 30 bucks on a pair of socks,
• 1:52:34
  and I hadn't be wearing them this day.
• 1:52:35
  I did the psilocybin journey and you know, like I said, I was
• 1:52:39
  with the lady for quite a while.
• 1:52:40
  Then I needed a masculine energy.
• 1:52:41
  So I ended up, laying, sitting down, or actually laying with my head in
• 1:52:45
  the, the man's lap, holding his hand, talking to him for about two hours.
• 1:52:49
  But then at some point in time I'm like, I need to go see the horses.
• 1:52:51
  And so I was pretty much mostly through the, the, any of the.
• 1:52:58
  Hallucinogenic effects, you know, the visual effects you
• 1:53:01
  might get from, from Psilocin.
• 1:53:03
  And I didn't get many visual effects cuz for the most part my eyes were closed.
• 1:53:06
  But by this point in time, I'm not really getting any visuals,
• 1:53:09
  but I wanna go see the horses.
• 1:53:10
  So we walk out this pasture to the horses and on the way out there, I, as
• 1:53:15
  I get up to the horses, I realize I got an itchy foot and I look down and one
• 1:53:18
  of my socks, I've got an inside out.
• 1:53:20
  So all the little threads that make up all this Native American design that's
• 1:53:23
  on the outside have all caught all these stickers, these seeds from the grass.
• 1:53:28
  And so one of the horses walks up to me and he's standing right there.
• 1:53:31
  And instead of me talking to him, I pull my boot off and I pull this
• 1:53:33
  sock off and I start to pull these grass seeds out of this sock cuz
• 1:53:37
  I've got, this is important to me.
• 1:53:38
  These are my, this is my eff u money socks, isn't it?
• 1:53:41
  And I start to pick these grasses outta this sock and this horse just saddles
• 1:53:45
  up to me and just bumps me with his shoulder and knocks me off balance.
• 1:53:48
  Cause I'm standing on one foot, knocks me off balance and I look at him
• 1:53:52
  and all of a sudden I realize he's basically forget the fucking socks.
• 1:53:57
  It's not about the socks.
• 1:53:59
  And so I just put that sock in my pocket and put my shoe back on.
• 1:54:02
  And then I was present there with the horses, but it was, he was
• 1:54:04
  like, forget your you money socks.
• 1:54:06
  You don't need to worry about the socks right now.
• 1:54:11
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you anticipate that some of these experiences are now going
• 1:54:18
  to come to you w while with horses?
• 1:54:21
  I mean, why, why wouldn't they?
• 1:54:23
  Horses are still a large part of your life.
• 1:54:27
  Don't.
• 1:54:27
  And so what, what do you, what do you anticipate that bringing
• 1:54:34
  Warwick Schiller: you to?
• 1:54:36
  I don't anticipate it, but I'm open to it.
• 1:54:41
  Okay.
• 1:54:43
  And I, I think anticipation is there's a certain level of expectation,
• 1:54:50
  and I, I just think the energy's completely different when you are
• 1:54:54
  open to things versus when you are hoping that will happen or Sure.
• 1:54:58
  That will happen or whatever.
• 1:55:00
  And I, I, I, all my life, I've been a, you know, I've got this far with
• 1:55:04
  just being open to, possibilities.
• 1:55:07
  What, so what do I think will come from it?
• 1:55:10
  I think so a lot of people when they go into those spaces with, with plant
• 1:55:15
  medicines or whatever, they have conversations with the divine, with
• 1:55:22
  other beings, other entities, other energies that give them information.
• 1:55:27
  In my experiences, I have not had any of that at all yet.
• 1:55:32
  but I know people who regularly have sessions with their
• 1:55:36
  horses, with, with, psilocybin.
• 1:55:37
  They'll, on a Sunday, they'll go and take some psilocybin
• 1:55:41
  and go sit with the horses.
• 1:55:42
  I get messages from several friends of mine all the time, like, you wouldn't
• 1:55:46
  believe what the horses told me today.
• 1:55:48
  Had a, had a afternoon Sunday afternoon mushroom session with the horses and
• 1:55:52
  they said this and this and this.
• 1:55:54
  And what generally
• 1:55:54
  Rupert Isaacson: are the horses saying?
• 1:55:56
  Are they saying banal things like, could we have better pasture please?
• 1:56:00
  Or are they saying there's a message from the outer
• 1:56:02
  Warwick Schiller: gods?
• 1:56:02
  What are they saying?
• 1:56:03
  It's, no, it's, it's, it's the big, it's the big message.
• 1:56:05
  Like, you know, the wor we, we have to start getting along.
• 1:56:09
  We ha we're all connected.
• 1:56:10
  We have to start, we're all, we need to start to heal the system type thing.
• 1:56:16
  is that the general thrust of the thing, the general thrust of the, of the, of
• 1:56:22
  the whole thing is run, tell the others.
• 1:56:27
  Rupert Isaacson: our horses.
• 1:56:28
  Our horses try to tell us this fairly routinely.
• 1:56:32
  In fact.
• 1:56:34
  Warwick Schiller: I think so.
• 1:56:35
  I think, I think Sherlock showed up to, to give me a little, like, that horse
• 1:56:43
  knocked me off balance with that foot.
• 1:56:44
  Like forget about the sock.
• 1:56:46
  Yeah.
• 1:56:46
  Okay.
• 1:56:46
  I think Sherlock showed me to say, Hey, forget about, forget about
• 1:56:49
  the way you're looking at things.
• 1:56:50
  There's another way to look at things.
• 1:56:52
  And that leads you, you know, it is a, yeah, I believe it is a, an evolution and
• 1:56:57
  you can't skip steps, you know, so your levels of, your levels of consciousness
• 1:57:03
  or your levels of consciousness and there's lots of levels of consciousness.
• 1:57:06
  And you know, I think I'm very, very, very early on in the journey, but.
• 1:57:13
  You know, you, I, I think they're just, for me, the horses are kind of
• 1:57:17
  pointing us in the, in the direction of,
• 1:57:19
  Rupert Isaacson: given that we have relationships with so many different
• 1:57:24
  species, you know, we, we have all the domesticated animals and then
• 1:57:28
  of course we have wild animals.
• 1:57:32
  Why the horse?
• 1:57:33
  What's, what's the special thing that the horse has to tell us in this?
• 1:57:39
  Or is it what all animals would tell us?
• 1:57:43
  , what do you think?
• 1:57:45
  Warwick Schiller: I'm thinking it's what all animals would tell
• 1:57:48
  us, but we don't wanna ride the lions, you know what I mean?
• 1:57:51
  And so
• 1:57:52
  Rupert Isaacson: lions don't carry us anywhere.
• 1:57:53
  It's true.
• 1:57:54
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 1:57:55
  You know, it's, yeah, I think, I think, and like a dog will
• 1:58:01
  wanna be around you all the time.
• 1:58:02
  You don't have to, you don't necessarily have to change how you go about things
• 1:58:07
  to get the dog to wanna hang with you.
• 1:58:08
  But horse, you know, like you said before, we're predators.
• 1:58:10
  They're prey animals.
• 1:58:12
  And I think if we want, we, we we're passionate about horses.
• 1:58:15
  We love horses.
• 1:58:15
  We love to be around them.
• 1:58:17
  we love to do things with them, but they, I think they present us with challenges
• 1:58:23
  in.
• 1:58:26
  Ambitions with horses.
• 1:58:27
  They present us with challenges.
• 1:58:28
  And those challenges are overcome by going up levels of consciousness,
• 1:58:32
  seeing things differently.
• 1:58:34
  You know, it seems like if, if you are, you know, you talked about
• 1:58:37
  school, you know, like this kind of school system you grew up in and the
• 1:58:42
  church and the state, and we wanna, we wanna make you adversarial so that
• 1:58:46
  you can fight wars for us or whatever.
• 1:58:48
  You know, if you want to be adversarial with a horse, you'll
• 1:58:50
  have all sorts of difficulties.
• 1:58:51
  But if you, if you are passionate about getting things done with a horse, after
• 1:58:57
  a while the adversarial thing doesn't work and you start to look at things a
• 1:59:00
  bit differently, then you realize, oh, I didn't ha he was only being adversarial
• 1:59:04
  because I was being adversarial.
• 1:59:06
  And I think, I think as we go along, I'm, yeah, these days I'm
• 1:59:10
  trying to see how much I can do with, without doing anything , so to speak.
• 1:59:15
  And I'm not talking about animal communication that's, that comes later,
• 1:59:18
  but just do you think that Mustang just letting, let, letting that Mustang
• 1:59:24
  know how much I noticed made all of a difference in the world than if I had a
• 1:59:30
  tried to, to train him to do something or, you know, that sort of thing.
• 1:59:35
  You know, there's an old saying with horses, they don't care how much you
• 1:59:38
  know until they know how much you care.
• 1:59:40
  I actually think that's kind of bunk.
• 1:59:43
  They don't know how much you care until they know how.
• 1:59:48
  Much you notice how present you can be.
• 1:59:51
  They, you know, you see a lot of people who care a lot about their
• 1:59:53
  horses and they run up and they pat 'em and they feed 'em and they do this,
• 1:59:55
  and I love my horse, but they're not communicating any awareness of things.
• 2:00:02
  And I, I have just found that with horses, the more you can be communicate
• 2:00:08
  your awareness to it, it gets down to the point to where it ends up.
• 2:00:12
  Where it's all about communicating Your awareness of their awareness.
• 2:00:17
  Of your awareness of their awareness, of your awareness.
• 2:00:20
  Of their awareness.
• 2:00:21
  If you wanna keep going like that.
• 2:00:22
  But that's, you know, you were talking about, elephants
• 2:00:24
  of Indigos and about animals.
• 2:00:26
  there's a book I've been reading called Beyond Words, what Animals Think and
• 2:00:29
  Feel by a fellow named Carl Sina.
• 2:00:32
  I dunno if you've ever heard of, how do you spell Sina ssa?
• 2:00:35
  F i n a
• 2:00:37
  Rupert Isaacson: s a f i n A, Sina Carl.
• 2:00:40
  Carl with a c or, or, or with a city
• 2:00:43
  Warwick Schiller: with a c Carl Safina.
• 2:00:45
  Beyond Words, what Animals Think and Feel, his name of the book.
• 2:00:48
  But in there he's talking about how, you know, we've all scientists, like in the
• 2:00:52
  scientific world, anthropomorphizing is a good way to get yourself laughed at.
• 2:00:55
  Like we've been taught.
• 2:00:57
  Do not anthropomorphizing, do not anthropomorphizing, you know,
• 2:00:59
  animals don't have feelings.
• 2:01:01
  And in that book, at the, we're at the very end of one of the chapters, he was
• 2:01:05
  talking with someone and they said to him, well, what you have to remember
• 2:01:08
  is, I think it was, there's a, there's a chapter in elephants, there's a
• 2:01:12
  chapter in Wales and there's a chapter.
• 2:01:15
  What the other animal is.
• 2:01:17
  But anyway, this person said, you know, you have to remember that
• 2:01:21
  they're not animal, they're not humans.
• 2:01:23
  And his reply was, yes, but you have to remember, the humans are animals.
• 2:01:29
  Right.
• 2:01:30
  Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree.
• 2:01:31
  And I've often wondered, you know, we have the, we have a particular love
• 2:01:35
  affair with the horse in our culture.
• 2:01:39
  It's what we built our military civilizations on.
• 2:01:44
  Ever since the bur nomads came out of the step into Europe on those horses,
• 2:01:49
  the Yamaya, as they seem to refer to them in the Neolithic era, the first
• 2:01:57
  Hs to sweep across Europe and bring death and the sword to everybody on
• 2:02:01
  a horse, goes back into pre-history.
• 2:02:06
  And it seems that we have used the horse to project our ambitions
• 2:02:16
  and our egos as well as ourselves.
• 2:02:19
  I'm projecting myself from here in Germany to Hungary because I can get there on
• 2:02:23
  a horse quicker than I can on foot.
• 2:02:26
  so it's a real projection and it's a emotional and
• 2:02:29
  metaphorical projection as well.
• 2:02:32
  They make us bigger, faster, stronger, more beautiful until we get off.
• 2:02:36
  And then we just go back to being monkeys again.
• 2:02:39
  that said, the time I spent in Mongo.
• 2:02:43
  Where, okay, the le the horsemanship is quite, quite brutal.
• 2:02:49
  but their relationship with the horse is on every level.
• 2:02:52
  They, they live it, they wear it, they drink it, they eat it.
• 2:02:56
  They absolutely do love it and revere it.
• 2:03:00
  And they built the civilization well, the, the, the herding culture
• 2:03:05
  that again, brought by to the sword.
• 2:03:07
  We kill everybody now from the Pacific to the Mediterranean.
• 2:03:10
  And then somewhere in the 17th century, some Tibetan monks wandered over the Altai
• 2:03:17
  plateau and started talking about this thing called Buddhism to the Mongols.
• 2:03:24
  And in one generation, basically they stopped no more cub, no
• 2:03:29
  more Ja k, no more TA alone.
• 2:03:33
  No more they'll fight a defensive war, put, put bastards a sandwich
• 2:03:38
  between Russia and China, which is an uncomfortable squeeze.
• 2:03:45
  But the nicest people, and I want an, a strong humanity tradition and so on.
• 2:03:51
  Obviously I took my son there for healing.
• 2:03:54
  I wonder if we, these, we western post conquest colonial people who inherited.
• 2:04:07
  , the horses as a means of conquest are now going through that same education that
• 2:04:15
  the Mongols went through 400 years ago.
• 2:04:19
  For us, it all seems very new.
• 2:04:22
  This thing of, well, to have a relationship with the horse, to not just
• 2:04:26
  want the horse to do this thing for you in order to win this ribbon or whatever.
• 2:04:35
  because competition is a form of conquest, form of battle, form of
• 2:04:39
  competition, adversarial exercise.
• 2:04:44
  what are your thoughts on this?
• 2:04:45
  Do, do you feel that therefore the horse because of this?
• 2:04:50
  Because we've used the horse probably more than any other animal that you can ride.
• 2:04:55
  We have used elephants in war.
• 2:04:57
  We have used camels in war.
• 2:04:58
  Okay, fine.
• 2:04:58
  We've used doggies and mules in more, but not like the horse because of the
• 2:05:02
  speed, the, the maneuverability, the da.
• 2:05:07
  So we've really committed some sins on the backs of these things.
• 2:05:13
  And they've given this sort of, they're any, they, they're neutral.
• 2:05:18
  It's like they've given us, okay, here I am.
• 2:05:21
  I'm a horse.
• 2:05:22
  You want to use me for this?
• 2:05:23
  okay.
• 2:05:23
  You know, I'd rather you didn't perhaps, but Okay.
• 2:05:27
  and now we're coming to this other thing.
• 2:05:28
  Here you are.
• 2:05:30
  Maybe you'll have these experiences on horses or with horses where you're
• 2:05:33
  beginning to see these parallel realities.
• 2:05:36
  Where's it all going?
• 2:05:38
  Warwick Schiller: I think it's all lead.
• 2:05:39
  It's leading us all to consciousness, really.
• 2:05:47
  Uh, I, you know, I think, you know, as much bad as that's come
• 2:05:50
  outta the internet, you know, as far as social media or whatever
• 2:05:54
  better, better statement there.
• 2:05:55
  But yeah,
• 2:05:57
  I think these days there's no reason to listen to the dogma of
• 2:06:02
  your parents or your government or your church or whatever.
• 2:06:05
  Like in the middle Ages, you know, you, that's what you got.
• 2:06:09
  Oh, that's what you got.
• 2:06:10
  There's, there's no reason to, there's no reason to be ignorant these days.
• 2:06:14
  And so ideas can spread so much easier.
• 2:06:19
  And I, I just find it in the, in the horse community in the last five years or
• 2:06:25
  so, just in the last five years, people being just so more aware of, of the
• 2:06:34
  benefits of connection and empathy and,
• 2:06:40
  you know, non-confrontational.
• 2:06:43
  Means of communicating.
• 2:06:44
  And I don't, I don't know.
• 2:06:45
  I think, I think the horses are leading us to, you know, help more people, just
• 2:06:51
  be more aware of consciousness, I think.
• 2:06:54
  I think that's where they're going.
• 2:06:56
  And
• 2:06:56
  Rupert Isaacson: is that where you want to go?
• 2:06:58
  What's next for you?
• 2:06:59
  You, you've, you, you are still a successful trainer.
• 2:07:03
  You haven't stopped doing clinics and shows.
• 2:07:06
  You, you do still travel around doing that?
• 2:07:08
  Warwick Schiller: no, I don't haven't, I haven't done any shows since, since
• 2:07:11
  2018, since the world of question games.
• 2:07:13
  This is the last time I completed.
• 2:07:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:07:14
  Okay.
• 2:07:14
  Not compe.
• 2:07:15
  Well, shows in the com competition sense.
• 2:07:16
  Oh, okay.
• 2:07:17
  Yeah, yeah.
• 2:07:17
  You, you're giving clinics, you're helping people, you know, also,
• 2:07:20
  you're still helping people with the techniques as well as, because
• 2:07:23
  obviously there's these two sides.
• 2:07:25
  Rational, irrational, must exist, you know, parallel simultaneously,
• 2:07:31
  you've self-actualized.
• 2:07:33
  You know, if you look at you from the outside, when I met
• 2:07:37
  you, you know, I could say yes.
• 2:07:39
  This is somebody who, whether you knew you were following your gut
• 2:07:42
  or not, did, whether you knew you were following your passions or not,
• 2:07:46
  did had a passion for the horse.
• 2:07:48
  He had a passion for this western thing.
• 2:07:50
  You followed it, you followed your love for a woman as well.
• 2:07:56
  You followed love really the whole way.
• 2:08:00
  And whether you knew it or not, you did.
• 2:08:02
  You loved the horse.
• 2:08:04
  You loved this motif and this lifestyle.
• 2:08:07
  You love this woman.
• 2:08:08
  You love this.
• 2:08:09
  and now you're moving deeper into California.
• 2:08:11
  I know you've bought this new facility, you've become financially independent
• 2:08:21
  through the training videos to the point where you can now pick and choose what you
• 2:08:25
  do and what you're doing is interesting.
• 2:08:27
  You have this podcast is sharing of information.
• 2:08:30
  It's fascinating.
• 2:08:31
  You have started the summit bringing all these very interesting people
• 2:08:35
  from the horse world together.
• 2:08:38
  When I was there last year, it was my first, experience of being in
• 2:08:42
  a non-ad adversarial horse event.
• 2:08:46
  I'd, I'd, I'd never experienced that before.
• 2:08:48
  Mind blowing.
• 2:08:49
  now you ha are exploring consciousness and I know that you bought
• 2:08:54
  this new place in Paso Robles.
• 2:08:57
  What's gonna happen there?
• 2:08:58
  What's going on with that?
• 2:09:00
  Warwick Schiller: What we wanna start, you know, a lot of times at clinics helping
• 2:09:04
  people get along with their horses better, they have a transformational experience.
• 2:09:08
  They have to, they have a, a change in perspective.
• 2:09:12
  you know, a lot of times, like I said, they'll have a transformational
• 2:09:14
  experience, but they don't come to the clinic signing up for
• 2:09:17
  a transformational experience.
• 2:09:18
  A lot of times it'll just happen because of it.
• 2:09:20
  But, so there's a lot of places you can't go in front of, a bunch of spectators.
• 2:09:25
  with people because they didn't sign up for that sort of thing in that situation.
• 2:09:29
  And so what we are starting to do now is we want to have more
• 2:09:33
  transformational type experiences.
• 2:09:37
  Like after the, after the podcast summit last year, Robin and I looked at each
• 2:09:40
  other and like, we want more of that.
• 2:09:41
  We want more of that type of energy.
• 2:09:44
  And so what we're gonna start doing is having, I'm still doing,
• 2:09:48
  we're starting out, wanna kinda jump right into something new.
• 2:09:51
  We're gonna start at doing what we used to do, which is the clinics,
• 2:09:54
  but we have 'em at our place.
• 2:09:55
  And the, what we're doing now is three day clinics.
• 2:09:59
  The second and third day are basically the same clinic they've been before, but
• 2:10:04
  the first day is more mindset stuff, more transformational stuff with no spectators.
• 2:10:09
  You know, the clinic's not open for, for spectators until the clinic
• 2:10:12
  starts on the Saturday morning.
• 2:10:14
  That's the beginning.
• 2:10:15
  But then we've also booked, we released a, , what are we calling it?
• 2:10:19
  A what are you sure, what are we calling it?
• 2:10:21
  What are we calling it?
• 2:10:21
  We are having a, I can't think of the name of the thing we're having.
• 2:10:27
  We're having a weekend retreat.
• 2:10:29
  Thank you.
• 2:10:29
  We're having a retreat at our place.
• 2:10:31
  , the first one is in, I think it's in May, and it's sold out in
• 2:10:36
  three hours when we released it.
• 2:10:37
  And it's, it's, people don't bring the horses.
• 2:10:40
  We're gonna have these retreats that people will in from wherever.
• 2:10:43
  we will do some horse stuff, but we will be with our horses.
• 2:10:47
  But it's more about mindset.
• 2:10:48
  you know, Robin wants to lead people through ice barss.
• 2:10:50
  We wanna have meditation, we wanna have some yoga.
• 2:10:54
  We wanna have, all that sort of stuff with, with the mind, with the
• 2:11:00
  idea that this is gonna help people when they go home with their horses.
• 2:11:05
  This is usually, you know, usually people are having problems with
• 2:11:08
  their horses because of their perception of what's going on.
• 2:11:11
  Not the problem's, not a, you know, it's like Captain Jack Sparrow says,
• 2:11:17
  the problem is not the problem.
• 2:11:18
  It's your, it's your attitude about the problem.
• 2:11:21
  It's a problem.
• 2:11:21
  So, yeah, we wanna start having more things like that, and then we're gonna
• 2:11:25
  have weekends to where we will have, one of the podcast guests come, and
• 2:11:32
  Robin and I and the podcast guests will work with the people a weekend.
• 2:11:36
  But, you know, and I guess if you think about it, it's all
• 2:11:39
  about expanding consciousness.
• 2:11:40
  But all, all of this is about, it's trying to help people get along
• 2:11:43
  with their horses better, but it's, it's getting to the real reason.
• 2:11:47
  They're not a lot not getting along with their horses.
• 2:11:49
  Very well.
• 2:11:49
  And a lot of times it is their perception of things.
• 2:11:52
  It's their, it might be their negative self-talk, it might be how they view
• 2:11:56
  the world, those, those sorts of things.
• 2:11:58
  But we really want to get more into the, transformational space.
• 2:12:02
  And, and as it goes along, it'll obviously, it'll morph into
• 2:12:05
  something that it's not yet.
• 2:12:06
  But we, you know, we have a 42 acre place.
• 2:12:09
  We, you know, it's got, it's got a creek run through the middle of,
• 2:12:12
  it's gotta be old forest on it.
• 2:12:14
  It's got a huge, it's got two arenas.
• 2:12:15
  It's, it's got a lot of places to do a lot of things.
• 2:12:18
  So we're pretty excited about it.
• 2:12:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you think you're gonna do non horse stuff too?
• 2:12:22
  Just, stuff about consciousness, period?
• 2:12:25
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 2:12:25
  We'll I imagine we'll definitely end up getting into that.
• 2:12:29
  I mean, I think initially I will have other people come there to
• 2:12:32
  do that and I will be the student.
• 2:12:34
  cuz I'm a long way from teaching that stuff.
• 2:12:36
  But I, you know, I think my, my, looks like my purpose here is to
• 2:12:42
  help people look in that direction.
• 2:12:46
  I'm not sure I'm, I'm the guy that's supposed to lead them to the end
• 2:12:48
  of that rabbit hole, but I think I'm the guy that's supposed to
• 2:12:51
  kind of go, Hey, look down here.
• 2:12:53
  It's kind of interesting.
• 2:12:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, you said something very interesting at the beginning of this
• 2:12:58
  conversation, which was that when you began doing these things, you weren't.
• 2:13:07
  Doing them with an idea of monetizing.
• 2:13:09
  I mean obviously you wanted to make a living, but you weren't, you didn't
• 2:13:11
  do the equa thing to monetize it.
• 2:13:14
  You didn't do even the, online stuff at first to monetize it,
• 2:13:19
  even though now that's actually how you've become independent.
• 2:13:25
  You did it really to be of service and , then it took on its own energy.
• 2:13:33
  Is that what you're going to do with this new place?
• 2:13:36
  Warwick Schiller: Oh, I'd certainly like it to pay for itself . That does.
• 2:13:40
  So, um, you know what, yes.
• 2:13:44
  It's, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's not, we didn't buy this new place cuz
• 2:13:49
  because we're gonna do this thing to, you know, it, it's
• 2:13:53
  the same as everything else.
• 2:13:53
  It's just like where my, my gut was going.
• 2:13:55
  Like, like I said, after the, the podcast summit last year said to Robin,
• 2:14:01
  that's the space we need to occupy.
• 2:14:02
  That's what I want to do more of.
• 2:14:04
  I want to, I want to have more of those transformational experiences like
• 2:14:10
  that, both myself and other people.
• 2:14:13
  Because I don't think anybody, whether you are a presenter or you're one of
• 2:14:16
  the spectators there, that was at that thing that was not completely moved by.
• 2:14:20
  That everything that happened there, I
• 2:14:22
  Rupert Isaacson: would agree.
• 2:14:23
  So people will be listening to this.
• 2:14:28
  We're coming towards the end now.
• 2:14:30
  They'll have some questions.
• 2:14:32
  one thing I want to say to the listeners is if you've got questions
• 2:14:36
  and you must have questions after listening to this, email them to us.
• 2:14:41
  Write them, write them down.
• 2:14:42
  We'll give you the, the email at the end of the, of the show.
• 2:14:45
  and we will ask, Warwick to answer them.
• 2:14:50
  If he will.
• 2:14:51
  Will he actually ask him to come back on and answer them?
• 2:14:55
  Cuz it would be nice to hear it's direct from him.
• 2:14:58
  But in the, closing minutes of this conversation, people will be
• 2:15:08
  listening to this with dilemmas.
• 2:15:09
  And the dilemmas will be, you're a horsey guy.
• 2:15:13
  So some of them will have horse dilemmas, some of it will be
• 2:15:17
  life and consciousness dilemmas.
• 2:15:19
  Some of it will be how can I learn to trust my gut or get in touch
• 2:15:24
  with my emotions dilemmas, but I don't want to go and activate D M T.
• 2:15:30
  I'm terrified.
• 2:15:31
  It's not legal where I am, blah blah.
• 2:15:33
  That's just not part of my thing.
• 2:15:35
  Blah, blah, blah.
• 2:15:35
  And of course we know that there's many roads to these things.
• 2:15:40
  Let's say that every dilemma is really one dilemma, and it's,
• 2:15:46
  I'm unhappy, I'm suffering.
• 2:15:48
  What's your advice?
• 2:15:51
  Warwick Schiller: Well, I think I'm, I'm unhappy in suffering too.
• 2:15:53
  So , what would my advice Well, after all that work, after all that work, yeah.
• 2:15:59
  I get your money back.
• 2:16:01
  No, I'm, yeah.
• 2:16:02
  I'm, I'm really with this whole self-development journey, I, I've,
• 2:16:08
  I've, I've just start, you know, I've, I've just started through another
• 2:16:11
  door to where, oh, you know, I've just topped the mountain, and I'm like,
• 2:16:16
  oh, now I can see another mountain.
• 2:16:17
  I thought I was getting to the top of this mountain.
• 2:16:19
  I can see another mountain.
• 2:16:20
  what would I say?
• 2:16:21
  I, you know, I, I love how in our conversations, Rupert, you're always
• 2:16:27
  talking about the hunter gatherers and how that's how we evolve to live.
• 2:16:35
  And the, it seems like all the problems we have these days have to do with
• 2:16:42
  a lack of connection, you know, lack of, and, and a lot of that's the way
• 2:16:49
  we were, you know, the way we were parented, the way society had us be.
• 2:16:54
  And I, I, I just think that finding ways.
• 2:17:00
  To connect to the rest of the world is kind of the answer to the thing.
• 2:17:02
  And I, we talked about horses before.
• 2:17:04
  I think that is one of the ways that we can start to connect with, you know, for
• 2:17:09
  me, I'm still not the best with people.
• 2:17:11
  The horses, I'm, I'm getting so much better with the, with
• 2:17:14
  the connection with them.
• 2:17:15
  I don't, I don't need to have walls up.
• 2:17:19
  I don't need to present anything other than the true me around horses.
• 2:17:24
  And I'm still working on that with the, with, with people.
• 2:17:27
  But I do think that, you know, as the Beatles said, all need is love.
• 2:17:31
  Basically.
• 2:17:32
  It's that connection I think is, and whatever way you can start
• 2:17:36
  to work on, on connection, I think that is the way forward.
• 2:17:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Look for connection and take it from there.
• 2:17:45
  Words to live by.
• 2:17:48
  Alright, Warwick, this has been amazing.
• 2:17:50
  I want to continue this conversation.
• 2:17:52
  So would you consent to coming on again so that we Oh, I'd love to.
• 2:17:57
  In the meantime, I'm gonna go back over these books, which I've been writing down.
• 2:18:02
  So let's just, cuz I'm sure people will want to, to, know them.
• 2:18:06
  So it started with, is it Dave Asprey?
• 2:18:09
  Dave Espree.
• 2:18:10
  Is it a S b u r y p.
• 2:18:13
  Warwick Schiller: Pri asi.
• 2:18:16
  Okay.
• 2:18:16
  Rupert Isaacson: A s p e r y.
• 2:18:18
  And that's the cosmic
• 2:18:19
  Warwick Schiller: serpent.
• 2:18:20
  No, no.
• 2:18:21
  , Dave Asprey's, the guy that wrote that book called Game
• 2:18:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Changers.
• 2:18:24
  Game Changers, Dave Asprey, game Changers, and then str.
• 2:18:28
  Warwick Schiller: Dave Asprey has, Dave Asprey has a podcast.
• 2:18:29
  He's very into, Dave Asprey's, very into, the health and wellness
• 2:18:37
  sphere sort of thing, you know?
• 2:18:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:18:40
  Straussman Rick Straussman wrote Rickman Into The Spirit,
• 2:18:45
  the Spirit Molecule, D m T, the
• 2:18:48
  Warwick Schiller: Spirit Molecule.
• 2:18:51
  Molecule, uh,
• 2:18:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Karl Sfi,
• 2:18:58
  Warwick Schiller: S S A F I N A
• 2:19:00
  Rupert Isaacson: S A F I N A, Carl Safina title of the book.
• 2:19:06
  Warwick Schiller: It's called Beyond Words, what Animals Think and Feel.
• 2:19:10
  You know, it was interesting, I was gonna mention, I had a guy on the podcast in
• 2:19:13
  Australian guy that lives in Spain named Lockey Phillips, and he is very big into
• 2:19:18
  the emotions of animals, and he said, they say that animals don't feel emotions.
• 2:19:24
  He said they do feel emotions.
• 2:19:25
  They just don't have the same thoughts about them that we do,
• 2:19:28
  which I thought was very interesting.
• 2:19:30
  Rupert Isaacson: What thoughts does he say animals have about their emotions?
• 2:19:36
  Warwick Schiller: He says they don't.
• 2:19:37
  Okay.
• 2:19:38
  You know, it's kinda like, I've seen it, you know, in Australia,
• 2:19:43
  like, like growing up on the farm, like there might be a sheep.
• 2:19:45
  It's got a broken leg, and so it's out there hitting the grass.
• 2:19:49
  I've got a broken leg.
• 2:19:50
  You know, if you, if you, you know, I don't know if what you've got planned
• 2:19:55
  for next week, but let's say you were driving somewhere and had a car
• 2:20:02
  accident, broke your leg, you would have a broken leg, but you'd also have all
• 2:20:08
  this other anguish about your broken leg because Oh, I was gonna go to,
• 2:20:11
  and I was going to, and now I can't.
• 2:20:13
  And, and, and, and you know, all these things about that broken leg,
• 2:20:17
  whereas an animal, okay, a broken leg, here's some grass, I'm gonna eat it.
• 2:20:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Some people would say that's being shut down.
• 2:20:25
  If a human were to do that,
• 2:20:29
  Warwick Schiller: if the human were to do what the animal does.
• 2:20:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:20:31
  If the human were to say, well, I'm not going to attach any emotion, therefore
• 2:20:35
  I'm shut down from my emotions, given that we're emotional animals, humans,
• 2:20:40
  Warwick Schiller: yeah.
• 2:20:41
  And that, that, that could be, but.
• 2:20:45
  , you know, you've gotta think about shutdown.
• 2:20:46
  And our friend, mutual friend Jane Pike is the one that really helped me with this.
• 2:20:50
  You know, once I learned that I was, I figured out that I'd
• 2:20:52
  been shut down in my life.
• 2:20:53
  Then I had a lot of judgment about being shut down.
• 2:20:55
  And then I realized, then I figured out why I was shut down.
• 2:21:00
  And, and, and what Jane made me realize is she said you had
• 2:21:04
  a good reason to shut down.
• 2:21:07
  And she said that, shut down.
• 2:21:09
  You've judged it poorly all your life, but when it happened, it was your best friend.
• 2:21:15
  It was your body taking care of you, your body's, that's supposed to happen.
• 2:21:18
  Your body is supposed to do that at that time, but you've hung onto it
• 2:21:22
  to where you don't need it anymore.
• 2:21:24
  But, and that's, that's what trauma is.
• 2:21:26
  Trauma's not what happened to you.
• 2:21:27
  Trauma is getting stuck in a certain place and not working through the thing.
• 2:21:32
  I mean, you know, if any animal gets, you know, I don't know, baby
• 2:21:37
  Gazelle gets grabbed by a lion.
• 2:21:40
  Okay, he's gonna go limp, he's gonna go into that flop thing and then
• 2:21:44
  Lion takes him back to his cubs.
• 2:21:46
  And if that line sits him down for two seconds cuz he thinks
• 2:21:49
  he's dead, that little baby, cuz I was gonna jump up and run off.
• 2:21:52
  And that, that's the completion of that trauma cycle.
• 2:21:56
  Whereas we not get eaten alive by lions and we can get stuck in that, that place
• 2:21:59
  to where I'm just gonna go in the freeze or the flop state right now because it's
• 2:22:04
  gonna help me if I get a chance to escape.
• 2:22:06
  Or escape.
• 2:22:07
  But then we don't, we don't actually.
• 2:22:09
  We don't actually haven't been captured by a line.
• 2:22:11
  But yeah, so Jane was the one that made me forgive, I dunno if it's myself,
• 2:22:19
  but, but, but come to terms with, Hey, that was a good thing when it happened.
• 2:22:23
  All emotions are supposed to happen.
• 2:22:24
  Yeah, sure.
• 2:22:25
  But they're supposed to have a beginning and an end and I think we get stuck
• 2:22:30
  in cycles of not working through.
• 2:22:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 2:22:34
  I guess, I guess that in the wild state, let's say a deer gets hunted by, a wolf
• 2:22:41
  gets away, doesn't then need to have 10 years of therapy about it, goes back to
• 2:22:46
  its, original behavior pretty quick.
• 2:22:48
  What it might do is go through a shuttering phase where it, it shutters
• 2:22:54
  off the adrenaline shutters off the cortisol before it does that.
• 2:22:58
  And of course it's got to look around and make sure that there
• 2:23:01
  are no other walls, et cetera, but
• 2:23:03
  Warwick Schiller: it's not gonna carry it.
• 2:23:04
  Yeah.
• 2:23:04
  There's a book.
• 2:23:05
  Yeah.
• 2:23:05
  There's a really good book called Why Zebras Don't Have
• 2:23:07
  Ulcers, which is about Okay.
• 2:23:09
  Which
• 2:23:09
  Rupert Isaacson: is a, about that by who I don't, why is S don't have ulcer.
• 2:23:14
  Warwick Schiller: That's good.
• 2:23:14
  Yeah.
• 2:23:15
  Why is S don't have alt ulcers?
• 2:23:16
  I can't remember who that was by.
• 2:23:17
  Rupert Isaacson: no, of course they might cuz horses have ulcer, but Yeah.
• 2:23:20
  But probably cause of what humans do to them.
• 2:23:22
  Yeah.
• 2:23:23
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 2:23:23
  Because of our, yeah.
• 2:23:25
  The way we're keeping in captivity.
• 2:23:26
  we've been talking about different things today and I said, I'm, I'm
• 2:23:29
  now down the next level of my rabbit hole and I'm gonna give you guys a.
• 2:23:33
  That I'm currently listening to that is so amazing.
• 2:23:38
  It's called healing the Shame that binds you, healing The shame, the
• 2:23:43
  shame that binds you, that binds you by a fellow name John Bradshaw.
• 2:23:50
  John with an H Brad.
• 2:23:53
  Yes, John with an H Bradshaw.
• 2:23:55
  Yeah.
• 2:23:55
  and another one, I'll tell you what, I've been down the rabbit hole of
• 2:23:59
  learning about all this stuff for a number of years now, but I listened
• 2:24:02
  to one book last year that basically covered all the stuff I've been
• 2:24:06
  reading about for the last five years.
• 2:24:08
  And it's the Myth of Normal by Gaul Matte, the Myth of Normal, normal
• 2:24:15
  by Gabel Matte, M a t g a b o R, and then Matt, g a b o r, matte as in mate
• 2:24:22
  Rupert Isaacson: matte with an accent on the end.
• 2:24:24
  Yes.
• 2:24:24
  M a t e with a yes.
• 2:24:26
  Acute
• 2:24:27
  Warwick Schiller: accent on the end.
• 2:24:28
  And, and that and that book basically, it, it's, you would, you would love it because
• 2:24:34
  he's all about, you know, what's become normal is not normal for how we evolve.
• 2:24:40
  Like he's, it's almost like Hunter gatherers had it sorted
• 2:24:43
  out and we've screwed it up.
• 2:24:44
  Yeah.
• 2:24:45
  Ever since it's a, it's a, yeah.
• 2:24:48
  Very, very good book.
• 2:24:49
  Rupert Isaacson: By the way, you also, the cosmic serpent, that was Jeremy
• 2:24:53
  Warwick Schiller: Nabi, N a n y,
• 2:24:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Jeremy Naby, the Cosmic sert.
• 2:24:57
  Yeah.
• 2:24:57
  Back to the, back to the hunter gatherer thing.
• 2:25:00
  I mean, of course we talked.
• 2:25:03
  A prey animal shuttering and shaking off the trauma of the, of getting
• 2:25:08
  away or going into a collapse mode where it might spring up and run away,
• 2:25:14
  but also if it finds itself getting eaten alive, going into that state
• 2:25:19
  of supreme endorphin, overload where it then doesn't, it's, it's sort of
• 2:25:24
  anesthetized, doesn't really feel pain.
• 2:25:25
  And there are these mechanisms and it goes into a very peaceful sort of estate.
• 2:25:30
  We've seen this in wildlife documentaries.
• 2:25:32
  I've seen it happen in Africa.
• 2:25:35
  Yeah.
• 2:25:35
  And I
• 2:25:35
  Warwick Schiller: think that's the shutdown state.
• 2:25:36
  Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting about, of course, if you're the hunter gatherer,
• 2:25:40
  the humans with our consciousness of our different seeming different
• 2:25:44
  consciousness is in our wild state.
• 2:25:46
  We have the shaman in our state.
• 2:25:49
  We have somebody within the, the community whose job is to wash our psychic
• 2:25:55
  dirty laundry every 10 days or so like that, often about every 10 days or so.
• 2:26:02
  We of course, haven't had that for an awful long time.
• 2:26:06
  So now we have inherited generations of psychic dirty laundry where that
• 2:26:15
  whole mechanism for quality of life really beyond survival or thriving.
• 2:26:25
  Has gone.
• 2:26:26
  It seems to me that this conversation happens to have happened
• 2:26:31
  through horses, but has led to
• 2:26:35
  a series of washings of the psychic dirty laundry in the hunter-gatherer
• 2:26:42
  style that has now deepened not only your way of going about the horse, but
• 2:26:51
  of course the way of going about life.
• 2:26:54
  Meaning that you, through this, found a way of producing that
• 2:26:59
  connection, which again is part of the hunter gatherer thing.
• 2:27:02
  The, the clan, the extended family.
• 2:27:04
  We, we work for each other's benefit.
• 2:27:06
  We do not work against each other in that situation because
• 2:27:10
  we just simply will not survive.
• 2:27:11
  It's not practical, but with agriculture it becomes competi.
• 2:27:16
  It became competitive.
• 2:27:18
  And one of the things which I was so impressed about with the Jo first, the
• 2:27:22
  Journey on podcast, your podcast and then the summit was you have produced
• 2:27:30
  one of those connected communities out of the post hunter gatherer estate.
• 2:27:36
  I would be interested to see if, where Journey on goes and where
• 2:27:43
  your new place goes and whatever new media you put out there, which
• 2:27:48
  of course you're going to, cuz.
• 2:27:50
  You're not gonna stop.
• 2:27:52
  It'll be part of that
• 2:27:55
  opus of bringing us all back towards that connectivity.
• 2:28:04
  it's important work.
• 2:28:06
  It's important work that you're doing.
• 2:28:07
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 2:28:07
  And I, yeah, I, that's, yeah, I think you got it where we're heading to.
• 2:28:11
  I just, you know, it's kinda like how I've got to this point.
• 2:28:14
  There's been no plan to get to this point and so the, I really don't have
• 2:28:17
  any plans to get to the, the next point.
• 2:28:19
  I'm just kind of open to whatever the universe points me out.
• 2:28:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:28:27
  Which will probably be ever greater degrees of connectivity because
• 2:28:32
  it seems to have gone that way.
• 2:28:34
  It started with service.
• 2:28:36
  What greater service could there be than helping with connectivity?
• 2:28:42
  Alright.
• 2:28:44
  Amazing.
• 2:28:46
  Thank you.
• 2:28:48
  I think if it's all right, we leave it there for this time.
• 2:28:53
  I'm gonna go away and Stew and Mal come back with a bunch of questions please.
• 2:29:00
  , can we
• 2:29:01
  Warwick Schiller: resume?
• 2:29:03
  I'd love to.
• 2:29:03
  I'd love to resume.
• 2:29:06
  Alright then.
• 2:29:07
  Rupert Isaacson: I look forward to it.
• 2:29:07
  It's booked.
• 2:29:09
  Warwick.
• 2:29:10
  Thank you.
• 2:29:11
  An honor as always.
• 2:29:14
  , for the listeners, you've been listening to the Live Free Ride Free podcast.
• 2:29:18
  , I will have all warwick's, , contacts.
• 2:29:22
  , you can go and live in his house and eat his food and , make
• 2:29:26
  bad smells in his toilet.
• 2:29:27
  And he will not mind the next three months, but his wife might.
• 2:29:31
  , but I will tell you how to be in contact with him.
• 2:29:33
  The Journey on podcast.
• 2:29:35
  You need to check it out.
• 2:29:36
  The Journey on Summit, you need to check it out.
• 2:29:39
  , and attune horsemanship, you need to check it out.
• 2:29:42
  But I will be giving all the web and other links as well.
• 2:29:47
  Anything last that you wanna add before we sign out?
• 2:29:51
  , Warwick Schiller: no.
• 2:29:52
  It's just that it's been a, an absolute honor and a pleasure
• 2:29:54
  chatting with you again.
• 2:29:55
  As it as it is always.
• 2:29:57
  Well, thank you.
• 2:29:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Alright, , I'm gonna do the click off thing
• 2:30:03
  and I guess we will reconvene.
• 2:30:06
  Thank you for joining us.
• 2:30:08
  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
• 2:30:10
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• 2:30:15
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• 2:30:21
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• 2:30:25
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• 2:30:28
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• 2:30:46
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• 2:30:48
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