Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Cold Case: Mom Pamela Ray vanishes during beach road trip with kids

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Cold Case: Mom Pamela Ray vanishes during beach road trip with kids · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: go to Crime Stops here dot com. Crime Stories with
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. What happened to Pamela Ray? How much do
1:40
Speaker 1: you look forward to vacations? Because sometimes when I am
1:43
Speaker 1: overwhelmed with the work and taking care of everybody else
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Speaker 1: and I never get a moment to spend with the children,
1:52
Speaker 1: just being with them, I actually envision vacation when we're
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Speaker 1: away from everything and we're just together, and those are
2:01
Speaker 1: some of my very best memories. Ever. What went wrong?
2:07
Speaker 1: A mom takes her children on vacation to one of
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Speaker 1: the most beautiful beaches in the world. The sand looks
2:13
Speaker 1: like sugar, and she's never seen again. I Nancy Grace,
2:18
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
2:20
Speaker 1: What happened to Pamela Ray? Straight out to Alan Duke
2:25
Speaker 1: joining us. You know, Pamela Ray went on a drive
2:29
Speaker 1: that my parents took me on a million times. Would
2:32
Speaker 1: go down Old forty one, Old Highway forty one that
2:35
Speaker 1: goes from Florida all the way to New York and
2:38
Speaker 1: would go go go drive through the night. After they
2:40
Speaker 1: got off of work. My mom would make fried chicken
2:44
Speaker 1: because there was nowhere to stop. Alan the whole way
2:47
Speaker 1: down and we would get there in the early morning
2:52
Speaker 1: hours too, where we would go as Fort Walton Beach,
2:55
Speaker 1: but that's about twenty miles or so from this location
2:59
Speaker 1: where Pamela Ray went missing PCB Panama City Beach, and
3:04
Speaker 1: that is where I first saw the ocean. As since
3:07
Speaker 1: you didn't ask, Alan, we had gotten there really late
3:10
Speaker 1: in the night. There were so many people staying in
3:13
Speaker 1: my aunt's place on the beach that I had to
3:16
Speaker 1: sleep in a chair, which was fine, And I woke
3:19
Speaker 1: up in the morning and looked through the screen porch
3:22
Speaker 1: and saw the ocean for the first time and went
3:24
Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering if that was the plan for
3:28
Speaker 1: Pamela Ray's children. Tell me what happened. Oh, yes, that's
3:31
Speaker 1: exactly a memory that I have two Pamela, June Ray
3:34
Speaker 1: and her two children, five and twelve taking this family
3:36
Speaker 1: road trip from the Atlanta area, Georgia home to the
3:39
Speaker 1: beautiful beaches of Panama City, Florida. But when they pulled
3:42
Speaker 1: into Panama City, it was a rainy early morning hours
3:45
Speaker 1: of August twelfth, nineteen ninety two. Pamela couldn't find a
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Speaker 1: hotel vacancy, which has happened to me before when I've
3:52
Speaker 1: made the same trip busy time of the summer in
3:54
Speaker 1: the beach town. When she walked up to the counter
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Speaker 1: to check at the will Hype Hotel at three thirty
4:01
Speaker 1: in the morning, the desk clerk told her that he
4:04
Speaker 1: didn't have any space left no rooms at the end.
4:07
Speaker 1: So she did what I did in the same situation
4:09
Speaker 1: once when I was on a college road trip. She
4:11
Speaker 1: parked in the motel's parking lot and sat and slept.
4:14
Speaker 1: At least seven witnesses, including two police officers, remembered seeing
4:18
Speaker 1: the car and the rays inside. At five thirty in
4:22
Speaker 1: the morning, Pamela for some reason locked the car doors,
4:26
Speaker 1: left her two children sleeping in the back seat, walked
4:28
Speaker 1: into that She was seen walking into the motel lobby
4:30
Speaker 1: toward the swimming pool. The mom never returned to her car.
4:33
Speaker 1: Well wait a minute, allan, that that's so much information
4:36
Speaker 1: at once. So pam takes her children to Panama City.
4:40
Speaker 1: They get all the way down there, they go to
4:43
Speaker 1: a motel, the White Is that what you said, The
4:47
Speaker 1: White Motel on tide each road. Yes, it doesn't exist anymore,
4:50
Speaker 1: but it used to be the will Hight Motel. On
4:53
Speaker 1: Front Beach Road. They got there just before the sun
4:57
Speaker 1: rose around five thirty a m Us twelve. She couldn't
5:01
Speaker 1: get in, apparently decided to wait in the car and
5:05
Speaker 1: go back after people began checking out and leaving to
5:08
Speaker 1: see if they could get a spot. She locked the
5:10
Speaker 1: children in the car as they were asleep and started
5:14
Speaker 1: back toward the motel. Joining me right now. In addition
5:18
Speaker 1: to Alan Duke is Rhonda Bishop. This is Pamela's sister
5:23
Speaker 1: who has led the fight to find out what happened
5:26
Speaker 1: to her sister. Also with me, director of the Cold
5:29
Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCullum, renowned attorney Penny Douglas fur
5:34
Speaker 1: Out of the Atlanta Jurisdiction, and well known forensic psychiatrist
5:39
Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober now doctor Daniel Bober. Let me just
5:43
Speaker 1: clear one thing up. At that time, at five thirty
5:47
Speaker 1: in the morning, this is a while back, It was
5:51
Speaker 1: perfectly okay at that time to leave your children in
5:55
Speaker 1: the car and walk the twenty feet to check in.
5:59
Speaker 1: They were asleep, they were locked in the car. I
6:02
Speaker 1: don't want to hear any attie on her on Pamela,
6:07
Speaker 1: because at that time and Panama City was very still
6:13
Speaker 1: very pristine, right. It's not unreasonable, Nancy, for someone to
6:16
Speaker 1: walk twenty feet from their car, especially in that neighborhood
6:20
Speaker 1: at that time. And remember this is nineteen ninety two,
6:23
Speaker 1: so there's not video cameras they're everywhere as there are now.
6:26
Speaker 1: But you know, when you look at this case and
6:28
Speaker 1: you see that she left her person or keys in
6:30
Speaker 1: the car, I think it's exactly what you said. I
6:32
Speaker 1: think she walked out of the car to try to
6:34
Speaker 1: find a hotel room, which is why foul play is
6:37
Speaker 1: so likely in this case. Joining me now is Ronda Bishop.
6:41
Speaker 1: This is Pam's sister, Ronda. When did you first find
6:45
Speaker 1: out Pam was gone? I got a call. It was
6:49
Speaker 1: around new or a little after. I was the only
6:53
Speaker 1: one in the house and we worked out of my parents' house.
6:57
Speaker 1: I got a call and they said they asked who
7:01
Speaker 1: I was. It was the Panama City Beach Police and
7:04
Speaker 1: they said, Rhonda, we have we believe that your sister
7:09
Speaker 1: is missing. We have the children here and someone needs
7:14
Speaker 1: to get here as quickly as possible. At that point
7:17
Speaker 1: I had to contact my parents, get everyone located, her husband.
7:23
Speaker 1: We were on a flight by three to get to her.
7:27
Speaker 1: Well I think the flight was actually one. I have
7:30
Speaker 1: elapsed in memory about all that, and I think the
7:33
Speaker 1: flight could have been at one and we made it
7:36
Speaker 1: there about three. And the in between part is just
7:42
Speaker 1: bag and just disbelief of getting that call in the
7:47
Speaker 1: first place. I just wanted to get to the kids.
7:49
Speaker 1: I'm hearing what you're saying. Cheryl McCallum, director of the
7:52
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, and Penny as well. We've all
7:55
Speaker 1: dealt with so many traumatic incidents where victim can't I mean,
8:01
Speaker 1: I still to this day cannot remember big chunks of
8:05
Speaker 1: time around my fiance's murder. And I will say to people, well,
8:11
Speaker 1: what happened at this point, and they go, don't you
8:14
Speaker 1: remember X y Z. I'm like, no, I don't remember.
8:17
Speaker 1: I don't remember any of that. And that's one thing,
8:20
Speaker 1: Penny Douglas fir As you were recalling court, that was
8:24
Speaker 1: the one talent I had, and that was remembering fact
8:28
Speaker 1: is remembering facts, all sorts of details, But around that
8:32
Speaker 1: block of time, I just don't have any memory. Penny
8:35
Speaker 1: focused on exactly what has happened Nancy, and the trauma
8:39
Speaker 1: is entering your mind and you're trying to focus and
8:41
Speaker 1: get to what you've got to get to. I'm sure
8:43
Speaker 1: Rhonda was thinking about the children. Nothing else was on
8:47
Speaker 1: her mind. She was traumatized because her sister's missing, but
8:51
Speaker 1: she's thinking of these children that are down there alone,
8:53
Speaker 1: you know. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
8:56
Speaker 1: we're trying to put the disappearance of this gorgeous young
9:01
Speaker 1: mom at rest to try to get some kind of answers.
9:04
Speaker 1: But I mean, going to a motel, you just leave
9:07
Speaker 1: your children the car momentarily locked in asleep, the sun
9:11
Speaker 1: is just rising. You know, the thought that violent crime
9:16
Speaker 1: would enter their lives, that when five or six o'clock
9:19
Speaker 1: in the morning, right there in public, No mom would
9:22
Speaker 1: have even considered that, of course not. And Nancy, this
9:25
Speaker 1: is another example of a crime that every one of
9:30
Speaker 1: us have done the exact same thing leading up to
9:34
Speaker 1: when something terrible happens to her. We have all said, Okay,
9:38
Speaker 1: we'll be right back, locked the doors right, and we're
9:41
Speaker 1: gonna go get the key, and then i'll come back,
9:43
Speaker 1: cap all the glass, wake them up, and we'll all
9:45
Speaker 1: go win the motel room and start our day, start
9:47
Speaker 1: our vacation. So you know, this is one of those
9:50
Speaker 1: things where people saw her. Nobody thought anything sinister about it.
9:55
Speaker 1: It's not uncommon for people to sleep a few hours
9:58
Speaker 1: before checking into a motel. You know, she left the
10:01
Speaker 1: keys of the car, so that told me she's coming back.
10:04
Speaker 1: She locked the children in the car with the keys
10:06
Speaker 1: in there, She's coming back to wake them up. You know,
10:09
Speaker 1: I just feel sick. Cheryl McCollum. I'm just thinking about
10:12
Speaker 1: it because you know, all the working moms across the country,
10:18
Speaker 1: I think I speak for a lot of them. You
10:20
Speaker 1: always want to try to make everything as nice as
10:22
Speaker 1: possible for your children, whatever you can do. And of course,
10:29
Speaker 1: you know, I'm afraid I'm spooling mine rotten, but I
10:32
Speaker 1: would want mine to sleep in the car and not
10:35
Speaker 1: have to get up and go to the front desk.
10:38
Speaker 1: You know, they'd be exhausted. It can ruin their whole day.
10:40
Speaker 1: I'm sure that was what was going through her mind.
10:43
Speaker 1: And to think of those little children waking up and
10:49
Speaker 1: no mommy, nobody there, and they sit there, and they
10:53
Speaker 1: sit there, and they sit there and they wait and
10:56
Speaker 1: still no mommy. Around eight already. The following morning, the
11:01
Speaker 1: office motel calls and reference to the two children being
11:04
Speaker 1: in the car crying. The daughter was very, very young
11:09
Speaker 1: and cheerful, and that's why I knew she didn't understand
11:13
Speaker 1: what had just taken place with her mom and theirs son.
11:17
Speaker 1: Of course he started crying, you know, please come home, mama,
11:21
Speaker 1: bring my mom home. What happened to Pamela Ray straight
11:24
Speaker 1: out to Pamela's sister with us trying to put the
11:27
Speaker 1: pieces of this puzzle together. Rhonda Bishop is here, Rhonda again,
11:31
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. So let me understand
11:34
Speaker 1: that motel manager goes out, he has no idea anybody's missing,
11:39
Speaker 1: and he just sees the children in the car crying
11:42
Speaker 1: or asleep or what happened. He's seen the kids crying
11:44
Speaker 1: in the car. I don't really know what happened, but
11:50
Speaker 1: I think he called the police because the kids were
11:53
Speaker 1: in the car. And then family and Children's Service came
11:57
Speaker 1: and they got the kids. And the next thing that
12:01
Speaker 1: I was aware of was I was getting a call
12:04
Speaker 1: in Lythia Springs, Georgia saying that my sister was missing.
12:08
Speaker 1: So at that point I had to figure out. First
12:11
Speaker 1: I had to tell break the stews to my parents,
12:14
Speaker 1: and then I had to figure out what step two
12:18
Speaker 1: was the best way to get to them, to see
12:21
Speaker 1: what we could do, because I knew she wouldn't just
12:25
Speaker 1: take off. She loved these children. Tell me about the children.
12:29
Speaker 1: How old were they, What were their names when you
12:32
Speaker 1: got there, What were their responses, what were they doing?
12:35
Speaker 1: What were they saying? We got there. Brandy is five,
12:39
Speaker 1: Shane was twelve, and they were crying. They had no idea,
12:46
Speaker 1: They had no idea what had happened to their mom.
12:49
Speaker 1: They were crying. It was just it's very vague. All
12:53
Speaker 1: we could do was and then we had to figure
12:56
Speaker 1: out what we were going to do with them so
12:57
Speaker 1: we could search. The whole part part of that first
13:01
Speaker 1: week was all of us just walking and searching, and
13:06
Speaker 1: it was raining and we were just searching everywhere. We
13:10
Speaker 1: had nothing to go on, basically nothing. So the kids,
13:16
Speaker 1: they were just distraught. They had no idea. With me
13:19
Speaker 1: is Rhonda Bishop. This is Pamela's sister, Cheryl McCollum, director
13:24
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, Attorney Penny Douglas fur
13:27
Speaker 1: Out of the Atlanta Jurisdiction, and doctor Daniel Bober forensic
13:31
Speaker 1: psychiatrists along with Alan Duke joining me from LA. You know,
13:35
Speaker 1: it just sounds like Penny, a nightmare. You're walking and
13:41
Speaker 1: just walking up and down the streets and the dunes
13:44
Speaker 1: and the trees and the woods, looking for your sister.
13:49
Speaker 1: All the time. I guess you've got the children stashed
13:52
Speaker 1: in some motel because nobody. All the adults can't leave
13:56
Speaker 1: and go back home. There needed to be searching, and
13:58
Speaker 1: it's pouring rain to top it all off, Penny, it's
14:03
Speaker 1: a nightmare, Nancy. I can just imagine that they didn't
14:06
Speaker 1: want to leave the children alone, but they had to
14:09
Speaker 1: go and search for their mother. And so they're trying
14:12
Speaker 1: to take care of the children and search for the
14:15
Speaker 1: mother and they don't have any idea where to look,
14:18
Speaker 1: and neither did the police. That was the worst too.
14:22
Speaker 1: Cheryl mccollins, Director the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, the rain, now,
14:27
Speaker 1: as miserable as that's going to be added to their pain.
14:30
Speaker 1: They're out searching in the rain. But what does that
14:34
Speaker 1: do forensically trying to find what happened to this missing mom?
14:39
Speaker 1: Literally washes evidence away. If there had been any drops
14:43
Speaker 1: of blood, for example, we call it short lived evidence.
14:46
Speaker 1: When the rain starts, it would wash away, it would
14:50
Speaker 1: be gone again. What I keep coming back to is
14:55
Speaker 1: the scenario. So she's there, she locked the children in
14:59
Speaker 1: the car, so that shows she's protecting them. Whether it's
15:04
Speaker 1: because she's going to go off for a minute and
15:06
Speaker 1: come back, or did somebody chap on the class glass
15:10
Speaker 1: and get her out. Either way, those children were her
15:13
Speaker 1: thoughts to protect, you know, trying to walk this area
15:17
Speaker 1: in the rain. It was raining when she showed up, Linda,
15:20
Speaker 1: do you know if the car was craned the car
15:23
Speaker 1: was running. Yep. That tells me again she was protecting
15:27
Speaker 1: those children from the heat. She knew she was going
15:30
Speaker 1: to be gone long enough for that car to get
15:32
Speaker 1: too hot when the winds rolled up in the rain,
15:35
Speaker 1: so they were her main focus. There's no question, Now
15:38
Speaker 1: this is a lot to me that the car was
15:40
Speaker 1: still running straight out to you to doctor Daniel Bober,
15:44
Speaker 1: that tells me she only meant to be in there
15:46
Speaker 1: to check on if a room had opened up or not,
15:48
Speaker 1: and come right back and left the car running for
15:50
Speaker 1: the children. Yes, Nancy, I agree with you. I mean,
15:52
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that she left the car running
15:54
Speaker 1: tells me she only had planned to be away just
15:56
Speaker 1: maybe a minute or two. So clearly for whatever happened
15:59
Speaker 1: was surprised to her as well. You know, we are
16:01
Speaker 1: talking about the disappearance of a gorgeous young mom, a
16:05
Speaker 1: mother of one child five, the little girl, the boy twelve.
16:11
Speaker 1: To the sister joining me, Ronda Bishop trying to get
16:14
Speaker 1: answers in the disappearance of her sister, Pamela. What were
16:17
Speaker 1: the children saying about what happened? What did they recall? Rohnda,
16:21
Speaker 1: They were asleep. That still haunts them to this day.
16:26
Speaker 1: They were asleep and they knew or saw nothing. So
16:31
Speaker 1: what do you mean that haunts them to this day
16:33
Speaker 1: that they can't help with the investigation, or they didn't
16:35
Speaker 1: get to say goodbye to their mom, or what they
16:37
Speaker 1: didn't get to say goodbye to their mom and they
16:41
Speaker 1: couldn't help with the investigation. They asked, but they were
16:45
Speaker 1: sound asleep and they said they knew nothing. And now,
16:50
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Brandy was five, she doesn't even
16:53
Speaker 1: remember her mom. Oh man, oh man, Oh, that's a heartbreak.
16:58
Speaker 1: That is a heartbreak to Ronda. This is Pam's sister. Ronda,
17:03
Speaker 1: tell me about how you end up tromping through the
17:06
Speaker 1: rain looking for your sister. I mean, did you even
17:08
Speaker 1: know where to look? What were you guys doing We
17:11
Speaker 1: were going on what we would hear from people, and
17:14
Speaker 1: we would actually go in the bottoms of the hotels
17:19
Speaker 1: and look, and we would walk in those swamps and
17:23
Speaker 1: look and anything that we could do. If we've seen
17:27
Speaker 1: a van that may have been sitting or we would
17:31
Speaker 1: go up to it. I mean, we're rednecks from you know, Georgia,
17:35
Speaker 1: and we're gonna do what we have to do. It
17:38
Speaker 1: didn't do us a whole lot of good, but we searched,
17:42
Speaker 1: and we searched, and I mean, my dad, we couldn't
17:46
Speaker 1: keep him in Georgia for wanting to search for his daughter.
17:50
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to imagine Penny and Cheryl Alan. You
17:55
Speaker 1: guys know my dad before he passed away. There is
17:59
Speaker 1: no way my dad would have left. He would still
18:03
Speaker 1: be searching right now. I mean, a demon from hell
18:07
Speaker 1: could not have kept him from searching for me or
18:11
Speaker 1: my children, or my mom, my brother and sister. I'm
18:14
Speaker 1: just trying to imagine this whole family torn apart, Like
18:17
Speaker 1: what do you do with the children? How do you
18:19
Speaker 1: go searching? Because at that time, it wasn't Cheryl, it
18:22
Speaker 1: wasn't like now, oh, let's do a grid search let's
18:25
Speaker 1: bring in equa search. Let's do you know, bring in
18:27
Speaker 1: the dogs. It wasn't like that at all. Cheryls and Nancy,
18:31
Speaker 1: where do you even start? I mean you started the motel,
18:33
Speaker 1: but then when you start fanning out, you know, do
18:36
Speaker 1: you search woods? Do you search swamps? Do you search
18:38
Speaker 1: the beach? Do you search bars? Are there you know?
18:42
Speaker 1: Empty buildings? I mean you talk about any time you
18:46
Speaker 1: drive down any roads in any town, even your own town,
18:49
Speaker 1: look at the number of places you could search for somebody.
18:53
Speaker 1: I mean, when you look back on that, Rhonda Bishop,
18:55
Speaker 1: what is your most vivid memory. It's going through just
19:01
Speaker 1: the days of the rain hitting you and you're crying
19:06
Speaker 1: and you're looking, You're just looking, Pam, Where are you? Pam?
19:10
Speaker 1: Where are you? Please let something happen, Please come back,
19:16
Speaker 1: and you're just walking around to every hotel. Did you
19:20
Speaker 1: see her? Is there any way you could help us
19:23
Speaker 1: with any kind of information we would go. We were
19:27
Speaker 1: on the TV and we were just praying and we
19:30
Speaker 1: were hoping that someone had seen just anything, anything would
19:36
Speaker 1: have helped us at that point, and we had nothing,
19:40
Speaker 1: and we still have nothing. Take a listen to Ronda
19:43
Speaker 1: speaking to our friend Piers Morgan about her sister, my
19:50
Speaker 1: oldest sister, five years older. She loved me. We used
19:55
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Speaker 1: and restrictions do apply. Crime stories with Nancy Grace PAA
22:12
Speaker 1: Ray and taking her two children on holiday, leaving them
22:16
Speaker 1: asleep in her cop she went to check into a motel.
22:19
Speaker 1: We know that a police officer with the Pamela City
22:23
Speaker 1: Beach Police Department saw Pamela Ray and she was talking
22:28
Speaker 1: to an unknown individual that was standing between the motel
22:33
Speaker 1: office in this pool fence. After that time, we have
22:36
Speaker 1: no visual of her ever. Again, what happened to this
22:39
Speaker 1: gorgeous young mom Pamela Ray? Now we are learning that
22:43
Speaker 1: around five am, sometime between five and six AM, one
22:48
Speaker 1: person hears a scream. To Cheryl McCallum, director of the
22:53
Speaker 1: Coal Case Research Institute, what do you know about that?
22:57
Speaker 1: Several earwitnesses said they heard a woman scream for help.
23:01
Speaker 1: This to me is the most unbelievable because she's not
23:06
Speaker 1: just screaming, she's screaming for help. Now, the hotel, we've
23:10
Speaker 1: been told at the time, did not have phones in
23:12
Speaker 1: individual rooms, so they did not call the police. And
23:16
Speaker 1: I guess several people were afraid to leave their room
23:18
Speaker 1: and so check to see what was up. But several
23:21
Speaker 1: people reported hearing her scream for help. It was the
23:25
Speaker 1: end of a three hundred mile road trip to vacation
23:29
Speaker 1: with her two children. How many times have I gotten
23:32
Speaker 1: the children in the car and off we go to
23:34
Speaker 1: go hiking and to go see this or that, never
23:38
Speaker 1: thinking that somehow I would be separated from them and
23:42
Speaker 1: they would end up for hours in the car crying
23:45
Speaker 1: and never see their mother again. That is exactly what
23:50
Speaker 1: happened to Pamela Ray, her five year old and twelve
23:53
Speaker 1: year old child left in the car while she tried
23:55
Speaker 1: to check into this motel never seen again. But this
24:00
Speaker 1: is what we know. The scream for help rings out
24:03
Speaker 1: that Cheryl McCollum was just telling you about what did
24:06
Speaker 1: that mean? It had to be her? Who else could
24:09
Speaker 1: it have been? Then several people emerge claiming they had
24:14
Speaker 1: seen her briefly speaking to a man I guess in
24:17
Speaker 1: the parking lot of the motel on her way into
24:21
Speaker 1: the office. I mean, think about it. Let me go
24:24
Speaker 1: out to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. Even knowing what
24:29
Speaker 1: I know about crime, doctor Bober, when someone speaks to me,
24:34
Speaker 1: I turn and look at them. I mean, it's just
24:36
Speaker 1: natural instinct. And I guarantee you that's what happened that
24:40
Speaker 1: early morning. I mean, for Pete take at six o'clock
24:43
Speaker 1: in the morning. Who thinks you're about to be attacked? Exactly? Nancy.
24:47
Speaker 1: You know, this is just human nature. When you're walking
24:49
Speaker 1: down a hallway or you're walking to an office and
24:51
Speaker 1: someone speaks to you, as you said, you've talked to them.
24:53
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not outside the norm of behavior at all.
24:57
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly what happened. And to you, Cheryl McCallum,
25:00
Speaker 1: the director of the Cole Case Research Institute, how many
25:03
Speaker 1: raps and murders happen just like that. Somebody says, hey, Cheryl,
25:07
Speaker 1: can you turn around? It's over sure, and you know
25:09
Speaker 1: this person probably this was not the first person they attacked,
25:13
Speaker 1: so they have it down past. And people always say, well,
25:17
Speaker 1: you know, whoever's going to attack you is gonna look
25:19
Speaker 1: like a monster. That's not true. They're typically very friendly,
25:23
Speaker 1: very easy to talk to. They're used to engaging people.
25:26
Speaker 1: That's how they get you, you know, with your senses down,
25:30
Speaker 1: you know. So that to me, it's they've already guide
25:33
Speaker 1: her into such a vulnerable position because she's there alone,
25:36
Speaker 1: there with two small children. She's exhausted, probably, and my
25:41
Speaker 1: feeling is she probably got out of the car to
25:43
Speaker 1: go use the restaurant. She has probably had coffee all
25:45
Speaker 1: night trying to stay up for the drive. She's been
25:48
Speaker 1: in the car for several hours, the children are still sleeping.
25:52
Speaker 1: I think she probably got out just to you know,
25:54
Speaker 1: use the restaurant and come right back. This is a
25:56
Speaker 1: case at a stumped police for years. Pamela Ray leaves
26:00
Speaker 1: her children in the car on an early early morning
26:03
Speaker 1: August twelve to check into the motel family vacation. Nobody
26:07
Speaker 1: thinks She's going to disappear without a trace, leaving her
26:10
Speaker 1: two children in the backseat asleep, and also leaving hundreds
26:16
Speaker 1: of questions unanswered. Even now, police in Panama City is
26:21
Speaker 1: still looking for answers. Now, let me ask you. This
26:24
Speaker 1: joining me is her sister, Rhonda Bishop. What did you
26:28
Speaker 1: learn about a scream about five to six am that morning?
26:32
Speaker 1: A woman screaming for help? Who heard that? What became
26:36
Speaker 1: of the tip? The only thing that became of that
26:38
Speaker 1: tip was there was a guy walking down the street.
26:43
Speaker 1: His name was Andrew Paul Henry. He had a ferret
26:46
Speaker 1: he had harassed women earlier in the night. That is
26:51
Speaker 1: what they were going on. Well, he's the guy that
26:54
Speaker 1: claims he heard a scream. That's who heard the scream.
26:56
Speaker 1: I don't know who heard that scream. So is that
26:59
Speaker 1: the jumping off point to Ushaw McCollum, the time of
27:02
Speaker 1: the scream, like you hear the dog howling and barking
27:05
Speaker 1: in the oj Senson case, that kind of starts the timeline.
27:08
Speaker 1: That absolutely starts the timeline. Nancy, There's no question about it.
27:11
Speaker 1: Because you also had more than one person saying they
27:13
Speaker 1: heard it around the same time. So then when you
27:16
Speaker 1: go to the car and it's crank and the children
27:18
Speaker 1: are there. And then you have a police officer saying, hey,
27:21
Speaker 1: I saw the person from this car hours earlier talking
27:25
Speaker 1: to a man over by the fence. Your timeline is there,
27:27
Speaker 1: she's here at this point, she leaves her car running
27:30
Speaker 1: cranks and lodged. At this point, she's gone at this
27:33
Speaker 1: point after the scream, that's a beautiful term. Learn with that.
27:37
Speaker 1: The family out searching through the rain, searching all on
27:40
Speaker 1: their own, going up to motel rooms, beating on vans,
27:44
Speaker 1: windows and doors, trumping through swamp area, trying to find
27:50
Speaker 1: the missing mom, their sister, their daughter. To the sister
27:54
Speaker 1: joining me right now, what was it like going up
27:56
Speaker 1: and bamming on vans and trumping through swamps trying to
28:00
Speaker 1: find her. It was a horrible experience. Nothing he would
28:05
Speaker 1: nothing ever imaginable. I mean, no one ever would imagine
28:10
Speaker 1: getting a call saying your sister is missing, or any
28:13
Speaker 1: family member. And it's very traumatic to this day. It's
28:20
Speaker 1: traumatic because we still have all the unknown where is
28:24
Speaker 1: she and parents dying and siblings dying, and it's still
28:30
Speaker 1: all unknown. It's horrific and I just can't explain all
28:35
Speaker 1: the trauma that our family has been through. I don't
28:38
Speaker 1: even understand how you could do something like that to
28:41
Speaker 1: another person. Your father sadly died a few months later,
28:45
Speaker 1: as attendo, he fell out of his bed, had a
28:48
Speaker 1: heart attack, and he was dead just like that. Do
28:54
Speaker 1: you think that the strength of what happened to Pamela
28:57
Speaker 1: contributed to his death? Absolutely? Absolutely good. I think he
29:02
Speaker 1: may have died of broken heart. Yeah, I know he did.
29:05
Speaker 1: You are hearing our friend Piers Morgan talking about a
29:09
Speaker 1: horrible phone called Pam's father gets from someone claiming that
29:15
Speaker 1: they killed his daughter. We are talking about the mysterious
29:20
Speaker 1: disappearance of a young mom of two, a little girl five,
29:23
Speaker 1: little boy twelve, left in the car with the car
29:25
Speaker 1: running while mom checks into the motel finally at family vacation.
29:30
Speaker 1: She never comes back, and to this day we are
29:32
Speaker 1: looking for answers. Joining me right now, Pam's sister, Pam's sister,
29:37
Speaker 1: Rhonda Bishop, is with us. I understand that during the search,
29:42
Speaker 1: your dad had been having coffee at one of the
29:45
Speaker 1: local homes a lady named Patsy, and he's there not
29:49
Speaker 1: suspecting anything, and out of the blue, Patsy gets her
29:53
Speaker 1: grown son, Mark Reaby on the phone, and then what happens.
29:59
Speaker 1: He my dad gets on the phone with him and
30:02
Speaker 1: he tells him that he killed his daughter. Okay too,
30:06
Speaker 1: Penny Douglas fur the constitution protects you from a lot
30:10
Speaker 1: of stuff, okay. It protects you specifically from the powers
30:15
Speaker 1: of the state. In other words, a police officer can't
30:17
Speaker 1: beat you until you give a confession. But when you
30:21
Speaker 1: blurnt something out on the phone to the dead woman's dad,
30:26
Speaker 1: the police have nothing to do with that. That is
30:29
Speaker 1: a confession, Penny. Absolutely, none of these people are law enforcement.
30:33
Speaker 1: It's his mother and it's the woman's father, so there's
30:38
Speaker 1: no law enforcement involved at all. Now, somehow, our friend
30:42
Speaker 1: Piers Morgan gets ahold of this freak Mark Reby and
30:47
Speaker 1: questions him, listen, you also spoke on the telephone to
30:51
Speaker 1: Pamela Ray's father. Do you remember that conversation? Mister, I
30:55
Speaker 1: remember talks to that man. What do you remember telling him?
30:58
Speaker 1: I don't remember. Jactually what I told him? Yeah, I
31:01
Speaker 1: told him. I told him I was responsible. That was it.
31:04
Speaker 1: You told him you killed his daughter. I think it's did.
31:07
Speaker 1: And then what really bothered me was I never got
31:10
Speaker 1: the chance to tell that man that I wasn't the
31:12
Speaker 1: one response he died soon did Okay, I don't understand it.
31:16
Speaker 1: So he knows the father and the whole family, including
31:19
Speaker 1: our guests Rhinda Bishop, is out tromping through the rain
31:23
Speaker 1: trying to find Pamela. Her children are in tears toastiates
31:27
Speaker 1: the motel look wanting their mom, and then this freak
31:31
Speaker 1: gets on the phone and tells the dad, I did it. Listen,
31:36
Speaker 1: Pamela Ray was thirty six years old and she I
31:40
Speaker 1: know the story she was. Do you know what happened
31:43
Speaker 1: to her? No, I do not know what happened to her.
31:45
Speaker 1: Do you know she was abducted? She was abducted. You
31:48
Speaker 1: confessed to killing me, I said, I did. When you
31:51
Speaker 1: made the confession a confession you've now attracted, you gave
31:55
Speaker 1: them no information along with the confession. Yeah, I told him.
31:59
Speaker 1: I think the thing I stabbed Johnson is what I
32:01
Speaker 1: told him. I think I stopped. I think I said that.
32:04
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's what I told him. How I'm
32:07
Speaker 1: not sure? Okay, that is a lie. Why would you
32:10
Speaker 1: call the father and confess to that and then say
32:13
Speaker 1: I never got to tell him the truth. Well, Cheryl
32:17
Speaker 1: McCall him, this is a lie. Everything this guy is
32:20
Speaker 1: saying is a lie. Who he's a lie? But Nancy,
32:22
Speaker 1: we're missing a bigger pizza this puzzle. His mama knew
32:26
Speaker 1: he did it. So you just think about that a second.
32:29
Speaker 1: If you've got to call it, said, oh, somebody burned
32:31
Speaker 1: the school down with a cigarette, John David, would never
32:34
Speaker 1: cross your mind. Ever. You've got a mama that put
32:38
Speaker 1: that boy on the phone and said, you tell that
32:40
Speaker 1: man what you did? That to me? Right there is
32:43
Speaker 1: all I gotta hear. You know what. She's absolutely right,
32:47
Speaker 1: doctor Bober, because the last one standing will be the
32:51
Speaker 1: defendant's mother, and if she said you tell him what
32:54
Speaker 1: you did, that tells me he did it. Bober. I agree, Nancy.
32:58
Speaker 1: How many times if we've seen where dramas play out
33:01
Speaker 1: where the mother would say, no, no, not my son,
33:03
Speaker 1: he would never do that. So I think in this situation,
33:05
Speaker 1: if even the mother's not on board anymore, you could
33:08
Speaker 1: be sure that he did it. Isn't that true? Penny
33:09
Speaker 1: Doug with her? I mean, how many cases have you defended?
33:13
Speaker 1: Have you watched? I mean, that's how you and I
33:15
Speaker 1: know each other. We had cases against each other in court.
33:18
Speaker 1: The mom always stands by the son. Oh. Absolutely. But
33:22
Speaker 1: what I can't understand is why didn't he say I
33:25
Speaker 1: took her here, I put her body there? He just
33:28
Speaker 1: says I stabbed, I killed your daughter, and then he
33:30
Speaker 1: gives no more information. Penny, are you trying to say
33:33
Speaker 1: this is a false confession? Is that what you're actually
33:36
Speaker 1: trying to say to me? No, I'm not saying it's
33:38
Speaker 1: a false confession. What I'm saying is why doesn't he
33:41
Speaker 1: give the additional information? Listen to this. Your father died
33:45
Speaker 1: believing the Mark rabat he did his sister. He told
33:49
Speaker 1: me that Mark had confessed to him, and at that time,
33:54
Speaker 1: you know, I thought, very well, sure he could have
33:57
Speaker 1: done it. But if it's the case he lied to
34:00
Speaker 1: your father about killing your sister, what kind of person
34:05
Speaker 1: to do that? The worst of the worst, So to
34:08
Speaker 1: confuse matters even more. The theory of false confession has
34:13
Speaker 1: reared its ugly head. Joining me right now is Pam's sister,
34:17
Speaker 1: Rondebishop Rhonda. Who is this guy Mark Reevey? What do
34:21
Speaker 1: we know about him? I know that he has children.
34:25
Speaker 1: I know that they believe that he murdered my sister.
34:30
Speaker 1: They believe they were they believe he dumped remains out
34:36
Speaker 1: on the way to Illinois. No one has followed that
34:40
Speaker 1: to my knowledge. I also know that I sent him
34:46
Speaker 1: a letter after the peers morgan requesting because he gave
34:50
Speaker 1: them one piece of evidence, one piece, and that was
34:55
Speaker 1: that she had a single key in her hand. Me,
35:00
Speaker 1: being her sister, knows that to be a proved statement
35:04
Speaker 1: because I would have done the same thing. I'm not
35:06
Speaker 1: gonna lock my kids in the car and not have
35:09
Speaker 1: a key to get back in that car. And he
35:12
Speaker 1: said she has a single key in her hand. My
35:17
Speaker 1: question is I want to know how he knew she
35:21
Speaker 1: had that key in her hand. Now he has written
35:24
Speaker 1: me a letter. I have that letter. That question is
35:28
Speaker 1: not answered, of course, but it's it's just a letter
35:32
Speaker 1: stating that he knows that me and my niece and
35:36
Speaker 1: nephew are not on speaking terms because he wrote my
35:39
Speaker 1: niece and it says that he did not murder my sister.
35:44
Speaker 1: He don't know what happened, and he will not answer
35:47
Speaker 1: any of my letters anymore. It's fine by me. I
35:51
Speaker 1: just have one question. Why did he tell them she
35:55
Speaker 1: had one key in her hand, so that one kid,
35:59
Speaker 1: that one fact would indicate he is the killer, and
36:03
Speaker 1: plus the psychology, the psychopathy behind tracking down the family
36:10
Speaker 1: and calling them, getting on the phone with a father
36:13
Speaker 1: and confessing to murdering his daughter. To forensic psychiatrist doctor
36:18
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, I'm not buying it. I have a very
36:21
Speaker 1: hard time with believing false confessions that they're actually false.
36:26
Speaker 1: I know that they do exist, but I think they
36:28
Speaker 1: are very few and far between. And I mean, when
36:31
Speaker 1: you look at what we know about this guy, Mark Reeby,
36:35
Speaker 1: we know that just a few months before Pamela goes missing,
36:39
Speaker 1: he was already wanted for kidnapping and sex assaulting a
36:42
Speaker 1: woman in Chipley, Florida. That was just before she goes missing. Now,
36:49
Speaker 1: the charges against him were dropped because the conflicting descriptions
36:53
Speaker 1: given by the victim. But I know that he was
36:55
Speaker 1: arrested in that case, and that's the chief suspect. Now
36:59
Speaker 1: I've got him calling a dad confessing to murder. I
37:03
Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe this is a false confession. Bober.
37:07
Speaker 1: I agree. In answering, you know, the absence of evidences
37:09
Speaker 1: and the evidence of absence, and when you consider the
37:11
Speaker 1: fact that when you look at this guy's history and
37:14
Speaker 1: all the pieces it all fits together, and you know
37:16
Speaker 1: he might be backpedaling or might have buyer's remorse about
37:20
Speaker 1: making a statement. But I think at the end of
37:21
Speaker 1: the day, he's the killer. So what do we do now,
37:24
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, What can we do now? So I think
37:27
Speaker 1: there's several things that could be done now. Nancy, I
37:29
Speaker 1: think that the letter that Ronda receives needs to be
37:32
Speaker 1: looked at by statement analysts because she says he didn't
37:36
Speaker 1: answer the questions. He very well may have. It's called leakage,
37:40
Speaker 1: and it could be in that letter that he wrote
37:42
Speaker 1: back to her and the letter that Benise has. There
37:44
Speaker 1: could be more information than he's giving. When people do
37:47
Speaker 1: a false confession, it's usually either they're seeking fame, which
37:51
Speaker 1: is not the case here, or they were berated to
37:55
Speaker 1: the point they just confessed to make the questioning stop.
37:58
Speaker 1: That's not the case here. This is very similar to
38:01
Speaker 1: like Albert de Salvo, the Boss's Strangler, where he said
38:04
Speaker 1: he did it and then he said no, no, I didn't.
38:07
Speaker 1: She's almost playing with people this psychological cat and mouth
38:10
Speaker 1: as if you will. That's what he's doing, and it's
38:13
Speaker 1: very indicative of a serial killer. So to this very day,
38:17
Speaker 1: no arrest, no formal charges in the disappearance, and I
38:22
Speaker 1: believe murder of this young mom, Pamela Ray. Rhonda Bishop,
38:26
Speaker 1: What has that done to you and your family and
38:29
Speaker 1: Pamela's children. It's torn our family completely apart. Before we
38:34
Speaker 1: had a loving, very very close family and it's torn
38:39
Speaker 1: out apart. And I have one sibling left. Everybody's deceased.
38:45
Speaker 1: It's me and another brother that's left, and that's it.
38:49
Speaker 1: What about her children? They have not spoke to me
38:53
Speaker 1: since my mother passed away. It's just torn us apart.
38:57
Speaker 1: That's torn us completely apart where we were very close,
39:01
Speaker 1: where it's destroyed our lives. If you have any information
39:06
Speaker 1: on the disappearance and we believe murder of Pamela Ray,
39:10
Speaker 1: please call eight five zero two three three five thousand,
39:14
Speaker 1: Repeat eight five zero two three three five thousand. Nancy
39:19
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend,