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Yelling at Kids Backfires — Here's What a Therapist Says to Do Instead · The Parent Tap

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right now we are in the middle of our season on threats to the modern family.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are attacking an invisible threat, unresolved generational trauma, and broken behavioral feedback loops.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: When your kid is spiraling, most standard parenting advice tells you to talk it out or validate feelings.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if your child's nervous system is in a trauma response or if your past is triggering your reaction, traditional advice completely fails.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Our guest today is Dr.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Brandy Hawk.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: She is a clinical psychologist and the co-developer of PC Care, an elite evidence-based behavioral treatment program designed to rewrite parent-child relationships under severe stress.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Brandy Hawk, you spent 15 years dealing with kids who have been through the absolute worst scenarios, right?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the biggest mistake a well-meaning parent makes when their kid starts pressing their buttons?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, great question.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think especially when kids have experienced trauma, parents go in one of two directions and they usually overdo it in each of those directions.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: The first would be my child experienced something horrible, I'm never going to let them feel upset ever again.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm if they want something, it's theirs.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: All the trips, we'll do all the trips.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: They can do all the activities that they want.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: If we go to Target and they want four things, of course they can have four things.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: If they start crying, I give in because I never ever want them to feel as bad as they felt before.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: The other one is far in the opposite direction, which is I will never let my child out of my sight again.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Something horrible happened to my kids.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So now they are they're they're attached to my hip.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I will never let anything bad happen to them.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're not allowed to go to sleepovers, they're not allowed to go to friends' houses, they're not allowed to do anything.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: I am going to be there to protect them at all times.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I could see obviously I would revert to the second or the latter of that, um, unfortunately, which I know is not the greatest thing to admit my failures on this show.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so what is actually, and my next question is this.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what is actually happening inside a kid's head when we lose our cool and start yelling at them?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, I mean, it doesn't make it worse or it doesn't make it better from my experience, right?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So what is actually going on through their, you know, inside their brain?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And are we just, you know, making it worse for for ourselves and for them?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a short answer.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are making it worse.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And as a parent myself, I'm guilty also.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing that's going on in a child's brain is actually that their brain stops thinking.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: When their parent gets angry and yells at them, it it usually sparks their stress response system.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because the person that is in charge of keeping me safe is now acting like a scary threat.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And my body doesn't really know how to process that because you're supposed to keep me safe, but now you're threatening me.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so our stress response system takes over, which means we go, I'm sure you've talked about this before, into fight, flight, freeze, or submit response.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so our kids are not thinking.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're not actually able to process my dad is yelling at me that he didn't mean what I think he meant, or they're yelling at me that I just need to do this one thing and then we can move on with our life.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're thinking, I need to protect myself, I'm not safe.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: The person who's supposed to keep me safe is not safe, and they're either fighting back against it, running away, freezing and doing nothing, or submitting and saying, Okay, yep, whatever you say.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I love how you put that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And even though it's like, I kind of know that, but it's always like a good refresher, a good reminder to be told like what we're doing is actually very uh opposite of the resolution we want.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes it's like it's it's it's easy to lose sight of that, and it's like our it feels like our first reaction as a parent is to kind of like do what our parents did, which was like raising our voice, parents.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always a great reminder to be told that.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I saw in your profile that you refer to yourself as a people pleaser.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I gotta be honest, I kind of do too.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's very much like for me, it's like if if you're you know, if you're genuine and nice to me, I'm gonna you know offer the same.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like, but then again, if if I feel wronged, then I kind of go the wrong way.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so how does a parent's own like anxiety or fear of conflict turn into weak leadership at home?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that some parents probably struggle with this type of situation, right?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Being a people pleaser, but then also having to discipline your kids at the same in the same, you know, token.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So people pleasing, remember, is not being kind to people, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's different.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely to be a kind person who does things and is generous, like those are all lovely and good things to strive for.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes a problem, we call it people pleasing, when we put our own needs and we put what we know is actually best on the back for a burner in order for other people not to think worthy of us.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's important framing.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then we think about that as a parent, there's a few people that you're that you're potentially people pleasing.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: One is your child.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want my child to like me, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't every parent want their child to like them, you know?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't Instagram show moms and daughters that are little twins going places and everyone's smiling?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And aren't I supposed to have that?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: But the truth is that parents are not their child's best friend, and parents don't have to always be their child's favorite person.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, an affected parent at some point during their life is going to have their child say things like you're no fun or you're so mean, or that's not fair.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's like that's actually called being a good parent because you're putting barriers in place because there is a differential.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: The other people that be people please is society.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm out at the grocery store and my child starts screaming.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I am embarrassed because of what everyone else is thinking about me.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I'm like, okay, okay, yeah, you can have the cookie, you can have the cookie, whatever.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just be quiet so that no one thinks I'm a bad parent, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a different kind of people pleasing because you don't even know these people.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: You have no reason to care if they think you're a good parent or not.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And P.S.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: not giving your child the cookie is being a good parent.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Having boundaries and allowing your child to learn how to be distressed and manage their distress is being a good parent.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: But when we care so much about what other people think about us, we lose sight of what we know as being a good parent and being true to who we are.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I just I went through a personal thing last week where, you know, I got laid off and like I so I I you know, I picked up my daughter from daycare and I was like crying out my, you know, crying and stuff like that.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like consoling me, and I'm just like, oh, we're just gonna be best friends.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know it doesn't work like that because then again, when it's like time for bedtime, you know, it's like it doesn't, your your best friend doesn't put you to bed, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no there's gotta be that authority separation to to the uh to the situation.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it so like this is something I I struggle with in my household, especially with my four-year-old neurodivergent child.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: She is very strong-willed, she's the sweetest thing in the world, but then she when you know when she flips on the other side of the spectrum, it's like she will yell at me for looking at her, for instance.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't even necessarily be looking at her, I'll just be like kind of glancing in a direction or something.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you hold a hard, non-negotiable line in the house without screaming, without getting mad, and without losing your complete control?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you start by being superhuman and yeah, like you can't, like there's no such thing as perfect.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to, you're gonna get overwhelmed at some point.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: We all do.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're all gonna make mistakes.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: What we can strive for is returning to our values.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, like in the moment, what am I doing?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: What is my child trying to communicate to me?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably not the words that are coming out of her mouth, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: What is she trying to communicate?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do I value most in myself as a parent and her as a child?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And what can I do to try to move us towards hearing what she's communicating and living by our values?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So take a breath, remind yourself this is not about you.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Remind yourself that your child can manage the emotions that she's having.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: The emotions are not going to kill her, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: They they are they're just emotions in her body, and then okay, this isn't about me, this is about her.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: She needs something.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: What does she need?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then just trying to give her what she needs.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, let's say we do something, like in the heat of the moment, that's maybe not the best reaction.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we yell, right?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: We raise our voice, we do something that's like kind of out of our character.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I don't know about you, but I when I do that, or if if you do that, hopefully you don't, but I mean I do, and I think it's natural.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel immediately like regret and shame and like, oh my God, like, did I really just yell at my four-year-old, you know, kind of thing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of parents feel like the absolute garbage, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: After they yell at their kids.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you stop that guilt cycle from ruining your parenting like the next day?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And just kind of being this like thing we beat ourselves up for in the past of like, you know, again, I just feel like every day, I don't know if you feel this way too, but like, I just feel like I fail every day.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what I do.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm trying to be the best parent I can, but these stressful situations or these, you know, double meltdowns in my household, or the, you know, the especially dealing with the dog too, or if something comes up in our house, we're going through a lot of stress.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just I just laid out the layoff, and and so like my house is already stressful.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, it's like it's a house of cards.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when something else is on top of that, it's like it can kind of all come down.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we like kind of deal with that guilt and then you know, kind of not let it like spiral into this thing where we're just feeling bad about ourselves being not the best parent?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I we call this redoing and recovery.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, way to go, you're a human, humans make mistakes, you're not a robot, yay, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and now you have this actually beautiful opportunity to model for your child what it means for a grown-up person to admit that they did something wrong, apologize for it, and recover and atone afterwards.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I yelled at you.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really sorry, I should not have done that.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was overwhelmed.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I wish that I could go back and change it, but I can't.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love you, and now what are we gonna do to make it better?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because an apology includes two parts.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, how can I help?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I'm saying.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're gonna have to do it, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like they they need to learn that skill.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're gonna mess up too, they're gonna do something on the playground or in the classroom or you know, whatever.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, like we're modeling that for them, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're we're showing them that it's okay to be human, it's okay to make mistakes.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is how you do it, this is how you rectify your your choice, you know, your your bad decisions or whatever.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think that that's there's beauty in that.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they can see that, like you said, we're not robots yet.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um robots haven't overtaken the world yet.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, we're actually, you know, in control of this.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I started off as a kindergarten teacher.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, this is the the trap I fell into.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be buddy buddy with my kids.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I learned, like, you know, when I started to be like a little bit too too nice that you know I get walked over on kids, you know, kids figure that out.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're smart, they'll they'll figure out like this guy's a pushover, but the other side is like too firm, and then like you don't want to be mean either.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, where's that line there?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: The kids most want to be around adults who are both warm and caring and have clear structures, they want to be able to trust you.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so you you're right.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's you can swing on either side of that pendulum, but really the middle is the best place to be.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so you want to think about what are my non-negotiable barriers?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And those barriers, I'm gonna let the kids know out loud with my words on the walls, these are the non-negotiables.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what will happen if you follow and you stay within these walls, and this is what will happen if you if you break the non-negotiables.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then everything else within there.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree with you, like being in the middle there.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um that from my experience, that was like the sweet spot.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I ventured on either side of that, it it was just like, this is not this is not working.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm um, you know, the kids are not listening to me on one side or the other side, they're scared of me, like legit scared of me.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm this 6'4 guy, and you know what I mean.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if I get angry, it's like, you know, it's not pretty.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's great.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, let's let's let's lean into the rewards or consequences of the situation.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, let's say like our kids not listening to us.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like our timeouts kind of old fashioned, like, how do we get them to sort of like listen to?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is it taking something away?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is it timeouts?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it kind of just talking to them like you just talked to me about like kind of that human humanity element, bringing that in and just kind of having a one-on-one with them and sitting down, getting on their level and talking about the behavior you don't like or behavior you'd like to see?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how would you kind of handle, you know, maybe just like a daily confrontation or conflict that you're having with your kid?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: How would you handle that consequence?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, moving forward?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's always going to depend on the kid and the situation, right?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's the hard hard truth is that there's actually not a one size fits all approach to parenting.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Timeout, you said are they old-fashioned?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're really not.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Timeouts are quite effective when they are done correctly.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're not helpful when they're done incorrectly, but an effective timeout is you have crossed a clear boundary.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I told you ahead of time what this boundary was.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: You crossed it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the consequence is that for three minutes, like a short period of time, you now have to be distanced from the rest of the family.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And by distance, I don't mean any even in a different room, just like in the same room, but not playing with us for three minutes so that you can regulate your body and then come back.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: In certain families with certain kids, that's actually incredibly powerful and helpful.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: In other families, it's not, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So some families, something like a removal of privilege or having like clear, clear rules around that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I always come back when my daughter was little.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she loved wearing Disney princess sleep dresses to bed.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I told her to do something during the day and she didn't do it, and I told her, okay, you have two choices either put your shoes on or you won't get to wear your Disney sleep dresses to bed.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Her shoes were on immediately, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because we found the thing, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because everyone has a thing.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if you find that thing, then you then you can connect, and especially if they know that you're going to follow through.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: But in most cases, sorry.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, go ahead, go ahead.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: In most cases, I prefer to actually back up and try to preempt the uh the negative interaction by offering things like giving kids choices or letting them know, like using a when-then statement, when we're done with this, then this is the next next thing that's happening.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: When you finish getting dressed, then you can have your breakfast, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just letting them know what's happening, giving them choices, getting them agency to be in charge within your nice confines.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's great.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I love this.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I was gonna just say my daughter is obsessed with Disney princess dresses too, and like basically every day wears a dress or a night and definitely the nightgown to bed.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's definitely something I will try out because yeah, like that, like you just drew out a scenario that's like, okay, I'm living this right now.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and hopefully that's kind of what the audience is hitting on to is like maybe even if that's not their thing, there's they're your kids into something, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's gotta be some sort of interest that's like we can kind of play on, right?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and sort of like, and I love the choice as the agency and not just taking away but giving the chid, the the kids some ownership over like where you know where they're headed and you know, kind of that direction.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to get into like the co-parenting angle a little bit because like all this sounds like you know awesome, but it's like wonder if one parent is listening to this and the other parent is just like caught in you know the 80s and kind of just that old style of like yelling, you know, yelling, and you know, that the the the punishments were just you know kind of uh you know not appropriate for today's standards, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, like how do you get two different parents on the same page, whether they're in the same household or whether they're not, like you know, and and what's the like the dynamics with the kids if if there is that inconsistency?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is it's hard because the dynamic of the kid if there's inconsistency is that the kid is going to know that there's inconsistency.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Kids do best when there's consistency across their their homes and their areas.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's just like that's just truth.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just better if there's consistency.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: If there's inconsistency, kids will learn.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Kids will learn this is how I behave with this parent, and this is how I behave with this other parent.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that that sucks, right?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're getting two different kids and it can be really frustrating for both parents when that happens and it makes things harder for the parents because they're like, well, but she doesn't act like that with me, and he doesn't do that with me.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just causes more difficulty.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I like to bring parents together whenever possible and again return to what is our value as parents, what are our goals as parents, and how can we, how can we get as close as possible and as aligned as possible on our goals?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely getting together and going over that.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's important whether you're, you know, you're in the same household or you're not, is that consistency.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Go to the parent that's a little bit more apt to giving in to that request, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So like I think it's it's super important to be on the same page and be consistent and try to do things the same way.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like we all have different styles though.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So like I know that, you know, my wife and I, for instance, like we're we're she's she's very definitely like like a plant, like she's a planner, you know what I mean?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just she likes six o'clock is bath time, at six thirty it's dinner time.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, I'm more of a, you know, we'll play it by ear, we'll see how the kids are going, you know, if they're starting to get agitated, we'll start eating, you know.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: So like we're we're we're definitely different in our styles, but I've I've come over more to her side of like, hey, let's let's keep this consistency, let's keep a schedule because I know that like when we don't keep a schedule, it doesn't have to be super rigid, but just in that in that ballpark with our four-year-old neurodivergent child, uh, we pay for it.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like if she doesn't go to bed by eight o'clock, like we're gonna pay for it, uh, you know, in in some way or another, or her brother will not be able to sleep because she'll be so wild and so round up.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think it's it's great to have that consistency there too.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wanted to get into one last thing, and this is like kind of the controversial thing, I think, is like the phone time, the screen time in general.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: What's your experience with that?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And is is is phones and screens like just completely bad for kids, or how would you manage that um, you know, in your own household?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll tell you how we managed in my household.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter's 14 now, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we're in a different, different stage of of screens and phones.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But when she was little, she did not have a tablet, she did not have a phone, like she she did not have a screen of her own until she was 11 and started biking by herself to school.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: She was allowed to use my phone or my husband's phone in specific situations, like when we were at a doctor's office waiting for an appointment.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh when we would go to a restaurant, we would sit together, no phones, decide what we wanted to eat, order, and then in that space between ordering and food arriving, she had her little games that she was allowed to play.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like four drawing games, basically.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so she she was not allowed to be on screens all the time, and I think it was really beneficial.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she learned pretty young that if she woke up before I was ready to be awake in the morning, she could go downstairs and turn on the TV and watch TV, and then she's happy and I'm happy and sleeping and right.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think that screens are evil and killing our kids.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that sometimes we need screens and sometimes they serve a great purpose.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked with families that you're a single parent of three kids, and the only time you can make dinner is when the TV is on.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then then the TV needs to be on for you to make dinner, right?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's there's always flexibility in families, but in general, giving our kids screens and telling them they can be on them as much as they want is not helpful because they they don't have good self self-perception of what the screen is doing to them and they will stay on forever.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: They actually need their parent to put the limits in place.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's akin to me, like being, you know, as when I was younger, like playing video games in the summer, like I would I I didn't have any like guide, you know, guardrails at all.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I would play from morning to night, you know, there'd be no eating, there'd be no bathroom eggs, it would just be like straight on because like I was that into it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that sometimes with my kids when they have the tablet, like they're super like they're into it, which is great because it gives mom and dad a minute to put the laundry in or get the food on the table or whatever, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: That we need to do.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna sit here and be like, oh, I don't use screens.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, I use screens.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've my my one year old had a tablet.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's because like it's parents need to be able to drive in the car, parents need to be able to go, you know, take out the trash once in a while.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like things that have to happen in the household, right?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so like it's all helpful, but I realize that, like, yeah, there needs to be that intervention and like there needs to be limits on it where they're not getting like super obsessed or super into it.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because even my two year old now will be like, you know, he'll sit on there like all day if I'd let him, you know what I mean?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I know that's not great, you know.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Again, coming from my childhood where some of the summers were just like video games straight, you know, or 12 hours a day.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't even imagine.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine that anymore, but like I did it, you know, as a kid, and it was just like this this huge obsession.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you handle and this is my last question?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just wanted to know how do you handle you said you have a 14-year-old, how do you handle the phone management now that she's 14?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any like specific phone or app that you use that kind of monitors that stuff?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, because like like you said, you're in a different, you know, kind of ballpark, really, in terms of like, you know, the you know, the toddler little stage, and now you're in the teen stage.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do you handle that?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have different kinds of threats.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would I would I suppose I could say like you have, you know, maybe like the the gossip or the bullying or the social media stuff, or you know, even perhaps the the predators out that are online, you know, you have to kind of be conscious or cognizant of, right?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: As a parent of a teenager.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So uh one nice thing is because I've always had very clear limits.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter never developed a need for her phone, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: So her phone has always lived in the kitchen ever since she had it.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's never been something that lives in her room, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So she knows that at the end of the day it goes into the kitchen drawer and she doesn't have it anymore.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: She generally is not attached to it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: She will go hours without looking at it.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I really attribute that to the fact that she wasn't attached to it early on and she learned how to, you know, do life without it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but now obviously she's 14, she's texting with friends a lot, so there's more time that she is on her phone.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: She's not allowed to have social media.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've told her 16, you cannot have social media before you're 16, and then it's a we'll talk about it.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And her friends, you know, will all be like, Why don't you have it?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like you should get it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, my mom's a child psychologist.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And they all say, Oh, that makes sense, which I'm sorry, but that means they know.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: It means they know that it's bad for them.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: If they are thinking, oh, your mom's a child psychologist, so she's not letting you do it, obviously.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: But we do use um, we use the app Bark.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've heard of it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh I have, yes, yes.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you use it?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have it?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't used it personally, but I've I've heard I had another uh child psychologist on who recommended it as well.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, do you have like experience using that?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm gonna be honest, not all that much.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually having okay it's it's actually really frustrating.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: We but we bought a one-year subscription, so we're like, okay, we're gonna stick to this year.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that my husband and I have Samsung phones, and this year my daughter was like, I really want an iPhone, and we gave it and we got her an iPhone, and it says that the functionality between the two is fine, and it's just not.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: It is so miserable trying to figure this out, and we constantly lose connectivity.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is just like constantly no longer monitoring.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: She had an Android, we just used the Google Family link, and it was great.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: It allowed us to like fully manage all of her Google stuff and her phone, track her location and all of that.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very simple, it was fine.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: We downloaded this app called Rethink, R-E-T-H-I-N-K, which is uh designed to help stop holding.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it monitors your text messages, and then before it allows you to send something that it thinks might not be very good, it'll say, like, hey, check this out, read rethink, which sounds like a great thing.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it really was, but the the keyboard interface wasn't great.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like she lost a lot of functionality when she used that keyboard.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was um it was asking her if she wanted to send things that were just so innocuous, like there was nothing bad at in them at all.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was like asking her to rethink every other text message that she was sending, and none of them were problematic.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was a lot of stress for not a lot of benefit, and so we wound up taking it off.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we hadn't had problems with that before, right?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that if your child is having more difficulty than having something that is kind of annoying to use isn't so bad.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: That gives me an idea.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll I'll start doing more of these, like kind of tech review, seeing what's out there because a lot of it is just like I'm I'm preparing myself for when I'm gonna be in your shoes, when I'm gonna have kids that age, when I'm gonna, you know, I know the world will probably be a little bit different, but it's also like I just feel like I need to know, and the viewers need to know like what actually is out there, what parents use, what works, what doesn't work, you know, and then like learning from each other and and like being this big supportive community of like, you know, just I don't know, like for me, it's just I hear about the threats to to teens and all the stuff that's going on, and like this is kind of the focus of the show lately.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's and now I'm just like worried about like, okay, like we know that's we know it's out there, we know it's not gonna go away if we bury our head in the sand.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how do we prevent the worst from happening to our to our teens?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And not even maybe even they're not even teens, like I think that even preteens or even younger than that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: It could be an issue, especially if they have technology, if they have our phone.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I know sometimes I'll throw my kids the phone in the car because I'm like, I don't want to hear the tantrum or whatever, like uh, you know what I mean?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of just like unsiltered access to like YouTube or you know, whatever things they they click on, you know, it could happen.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just always, you know, on the lookout for that and trying to figure out ways.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, Brandy, I Dr.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Brandy Hawk, like, thank you so much for this breakdown.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can you tell our viewers before you go, and you know, we'll have to have you back because there's so much more I really want to talk about, but especially, you know, the kind of the teen lens with some of the things that they're going through.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I can't even imagine being a teenager at this day, this day and age, it's gotta be like incredibly hard.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And also to be a parent.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Let me go back.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to us about the Nerdy Psychologist Book Club podcast and also your parent-child care PC care program for you know, tell the tell the viewers all about this and anything else that you have in the works and where people can find you and and uh all everything about Brandy Hawk.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks so much.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the Nerdy Psychologist Book Club is my podcast with my co-host Deanna Boys.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: We read fantasy and dystopian novels and then we talk about the characters and stories using psychology concepts.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the the goal is really to destigmatize mental health through fun and books, and also because we're big nerds.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what better way to spend time with your friends than reading books and chatting?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: So please check it out.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can find us on all the socials and all the podcasting places.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then PC Care, which you brought up, was a program that my colleagues and I developed.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a seven-week intervention for parents and kids aged one to ten years old.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is to improve relationships and reduce uh behavior problems and help kids and parents better manage big emotions.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is something that we offer trainings on.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we we do this as a therapeutic intervention or as a parent coaching intervention with parents and kids, but we also offer broader sort of parent consultations, so larger groups with other parents to learn some skills and talk about things that are going on.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then for our psychologists or coaches in the room, we offer trainings in doing PC care.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you can find all of that at my website, redleafpsychology.com or like the red leaves on trees at redleafpsychology.com.