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Cultural reconnection in Indigenous corrections · Prisons Inside/Out

• Teddi: To me, that's a piece that is so important when we're talking about, I guess, reintegration, because part of reintegration is reconnection. Kirstan: Hi, I'm Kirstan Gagnon. Welcome to another episode of Prisons Inside Out. That was the voice of Teddi Saddleback, the acting Executive Director at Pê Sâkâstêw Centre in Alberta. Teddi helps run one of 10 Healing Lodges funded and are operated by the Correctional Service of Canada. Healing Lodges go beyond a traditional prison and as a broader effort toward truth and reconciliation, they focus on healing, community, and respect for Indigenous culture. Kirstan: She took us around the facility, introduced us to many of her colleagues and even some of the individuals serving time there, one of whom you'll hear from later in this episode. In our conversations, Teddi opened up about her personal journey at the Lodge and highlighted some of the difficulties many offenders can face before arriving, but through this, Teddi and her staff have made it their goal to help create an environment where offenders can reconnect with their culture and, as Teddy will explain, find their identity. Here's our full conversation. Kirstan: I really enjoyed our tour of the Healing Lodge here, and really appreciate the time you've taken along with your staff today, Teddy. Um, but welcome first to our podcast and thank you for joining me. Teddi: Oh, well, thank you very much for reaching out. I mean, it's definitely something I've never done before. So, I am grateful to be here. Kirstan: So you took us on a tour of the grounds. Tell me a bit about what you do here. Teddi: So right now I'm the acting Executive Director. I've worked at Pê Sâkâstêw Centre since November of 2008. I started my career as CX-1, and that's back, that's a long time ago when Healing Lodge is still had CX-1's. So... Kirstan: And a CX is a... Teddi: A correctional officer. Yes. So I've just sort of hung out here for the last 16 years. Kirstan: And you said you love it and you're never leaving. Teddi: I did say that. Um, you know what? I'm quite fortunate. Um, I'm from the Samson Cree Nation. Um, so we have a memorandum of agreement with Samson Cree Nation to operate this Healing Lodge here, um, in their First Nations community. And, you know, I, as I told you, I did a couple stints in the community parole office, and it just wasn't for me. And I think sometimes I have to remind myself not to take it for granted that I get to come to work, and I get to not only participate in the ceremonies that we have in our community, but help men reconnect to that. And that's not lost on me. Kirstan: So, yeah. And why is that important? Teddi: Well, for me, it's a couple of things. So on a personal level, um, you know, I've been impacted by intergenerational trauma from Indian residential schools, and I can relate to the men that are here and you know, some of their stories and how, you know, on the tour we talked about just reconnection and reconnection to language. And to me, that's a piece that is so important when we're talking about, I guess, reintegration, because part of reintegration is reconnection. Teddi: And at the Lodge we focus on reconnection to First Nations culture, First Nations language, and specifically the Muscogee Creek teachings here, as we talked about. And to me, if you have that identity and you can, I guess how can I say this, if you can relate to that and you can figure out who you are and where you come from, that's so huge because there's so many men over the last 16 years that I've come in, like, and throughout a career that I've done a lot of different things so they can articulate to you how, you know, "I never knew this about myself, and now it makes sense why I made this decision," right? So for me, I've been very fortunate to see the impact of our cultural engagement. Teddi: If we can say it that way, and the impact it can have on somebody who's willing to take that step and to work on themselves, right? Because a big thing we do here at the Lodge, we look at things from a spiritual component, from a holistic component, and we really try to address the internal things that have happened. And that is very heavy, very difficult work. But I have a great staff that, um, they're here for that, right? They, they, they want to do that work. And I'm super fortunate that I have five Elders here. Teddi: And I mean, my population isn't very large, right? I have 60 beds. I think my count today is 54, but I can talk to the elders at any point rate, having that male female component within the teachings itself, because there is crimes against women right? And we we have a big proponent on respect and respect for the family structure. And and a lot of that is just when you get those teachings, you start to understand, okay, I need to apply this to my life. How can I apply this? Right. And so that's a big thing for me. Kirstan: Absolutely. And I notice being in your space that I do feel a great sense of respect. Both ways for, um, between you and your staff, but also the residents and, um, in the way you approach it. Um, I think, uh, making the men here feel respected, but also, um, it's part of their healing journey, right? Because then they may give that back. Teddi: Mhmm. Teddi: So I'm a big believer in I think it's called Walk Your Talk. Right. So when we went to the ceremonial room and I talked about how every morning the men get to sit with the elder, they have teachings and they get to smudge. Well, in our morning briefing and our ops briefing with my team, you know, with my staff, we actually have one of the Elders come in and offer a prayer for us, because to me, if I'm expecting that of the men. I need to be showcasing that and role modeling that for them too. So and my staff is really big on that. And I think you notice, too, when we walked into some of the program spaces, you said, wow, it smells great in here. Teddi: That's smudge. And I'm like, yes, it is, because we do a lot of that here. Right. And and again, that's something we do as staff in our personal lives. Right? It's a part of who we are. So we're walking our talk. We're on that path and we're trying to be right. And you try to it always goes back to role modeling, right. And when I went through Correctional Training Program (CTP), we talked about role modeling, and we talked about, um, we did a lot of role playing. And, you know, this is how you would do this, but how I've applied it is it's a part of my daily life. Teddi: So like I mentioned on the tour, it's about creating that human aspect. And if we can move towards calling by somebody by their first name that that's an eye, an identity piece, because for some of them, and this goes back a couple of years ago, um, I was working with this offender, and I had mentioned his first name, and I introduced myself and he was kind of like, why would you? And, you know, he had just come from medium security. And I just said, you know what? Eventually one day you're going to get out and they're going to refer to you by your first name. Teddi: That's what society does. So that's my responsibility here. And just seeing how the impact that had on him. Then I started making that a part of my approach with the men, you know, putting mister in front of something. And I know people will have their own opinions about that, but that's something that works for me. Right? Kirstan: So and I realized that you may not be able to talk about, um, the teaching or the protocols that go into, um, the way you approach your work. Um, but I was just wondering about the oral element of your culture. And, um, if you can talk a bit about how that helps the men connect. Teddi: You'll get to see later on today in the pipe ceremony, there will be some oral teachings that are given. Um, and if you really listen closely, even for you, you might get a message out of it. And as Cree people, we tell our stories, you know, and we and then it's like even, you know, 150 years ago, that same story might have relevance in 2024. Right? So it's really about listening. And I always find that it doesn't matter where I am, whether I'm here or I'm in the community. Teddi: When I hear different speakers, when I hear different elders share different teachings, if you really listen with the intent to take something out of it, you'll take something out of it. And I think that's very, um, unique about the elders we have. And when they share their knowledge and they're and like I said, I just I can't express enough how fortunate I am that I have, um, the individuals that I do here because they are whenever I need something, they're there. Yeah. Um, you'll get to speak with one of them later. Teddi: And she likes to tease me, and she's, you know, she'll say, I never hear from you unless I need you need something. And. But she keeps me accountable that way. So it is. It is good. Kirstan: Great. Um, so in Correctional Service of Canada, we talk about, um, an Indigenous , um, journey and also a continuum of care, um, a model where we're embedding the culture into how we do corrections. Mhm. Um, what can you share about that? Teddi: Um, I think for us at the Healing Lodge, we're quite fortunate that it's a part of our daily, um, how we started a rate like, and as I mentioned a few minutes ago about our morning smudge, that's just a part of our daily routine rate. Um, we offer two sweat lodge ceremonies here a week. Um, you know, and even that access to that kind of a ceremony is, is I it's huge. And the fact that we have, you know, for all our population. But we also offer that for our staff, too, because the work we do is quite heavy. And when you're dealing with intergenerational trauma and you're addressing heavy topics like that, that spiritual component, we need to look after that too. Teddi: So our elders do offer staff sweats as well. Um, and again, that goes back to walk your talk type piece and really role modeling that. And if you're applying it to your own life then it's easier to talk about it and translate it into for the men. Right. Kirstan: There's um you took us here through your space, and, um, there's a quote I really like, and it says we shape our surroundings and then in turn, our surroundings shape us. It's a quote by Edward T. Hall. And I noticed with the ceremonial space it is, um, you feel good being in there. And, um, I can just imagine how that, that connection, um, that you feel you can, you can take it with you in your, in your correctional plan journey. Mhm. Um, but also visiting some of the homes that the, the residents live in and how they share their space. Um, they may learn to cook together to, um, the budget, their food and their learning skills for when they're out. Right. And, uh, can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah. Teddi: For sure. So, um, as I mentioned earlier, we are the last step for release, right? So we truly are like, we're minimum security. So these guys are going to be out. They're going to be in the community. Um, so we really try to set them up with, okay, from 8 to 4, what do you do during a regular Monday to Friday? Will I go to work or um, go to school? So as you saw, the school was full this morning. So I had a lot of guys at school. Um, but in the communal living. So the way this is set up, it's almost like a, I don't want to say a dormitory because that's not the right word, but it's this, I guess, in society and public, that's probably the closest thing we could, you know, compare it to. Teddi: Um, but they really do. They make their grocery list, you know. Okay, well, what am I going to need? They got a budget. They have to learn. So we offer food safety courses as well so that, you know, things that I guess what we would take for granted is, you know, what we learned in Home EC in grade seven. We try to instill that here of, okay, so when you get out, you're going to have to pay rent. You're going to have to, you know, cook for yourself and even laundry. How do you do laundry? We talk about hygiene, the importance of showing up on time. So we really do try to instill personal accountability. Teddi: Um, and then how does that translate for when you're released. So that's essentially when we talk about reintegration in that aspect. Um, you know, Monday to Friday, you're either going to be reporting to a work or you're going to be going to post-secondary, or you're going to be doing, you know, you're going to be doing something, um, so you can't sleep all day, you can't sit around and, you know, do nothing. You actually have to do something. You have to be engaged. And then, um, as you saw in the TPI project, we do a lot of, um, skills. So the one of the gentleman was working on, you know, sewing teepees. Teddi: And then we talked about, you know, how do you make as a, if you wanted to do an entrepreneur, an entrepreneurship or something. That's something within the Indigenous community that's highly sought after is teepee making. And you can, you know, support yourself that way. So really, we try to emphasize life skills, um, and trying to address recidivism by what do we know about recidivism? If we have a job, then we're probably not going to go back into our crime cycle. Right? So there's a lot of things that almost seem, I don't want to say basic, but just generic that we try to show here. Kirstan: Right. And I think verbal skills. Kirstan: And um, what about the safety aspect? Uh, are there rules, um, that they have to follow to be here? Expected behaviors. How does that work? Teddi: So you have to be a minimum security classification. So as long as you're adhering to your correctional plan. Right. Um, yes. Very much. There is a lot of rules. Um, there's so because we're a healing lodge. And when we again, going back to the spiritual component, um, we have what's called a solemn agreement and every um offender that actually resides here within the first five days meets with the Elder, um, one of the five Elders that we have here. And they go through this all in agreement, and they basically talk about their commitment, because being here should be treated like a ceremony. Teddi: And everything we do in ceremonies is about commitment and following through to the end. So when we talk about commitment and seeing things through in that solemn agreement, it outlines that you're going to be free of drugs and alcohol, any kind of substance abuse, um, issues, all of that. You're going to be participate actively participating in your core program. If you need core programming, um, you're going to participate in the ceremonies. So, you know, as simple as it may seem to get up in the morning to go to morning smudge and teachings with the elder for somebody that has never done that before, that's a ceremony, right? Like it's a it's a the accountability piece is really high here. Teddi: Um, we talked about, you know, the men from 8 to 4, they have to report to work. So even in the institution itself, I have, you know, food services where they go to work, um, they have the Tipi project where they go to the work or they'll go work in maintenance. Cleaners. So all throughout the I guess the healing lodge, there is, um, designated areas of work. And then, you know, they get their coffee breaks like we do. Right? You get that 15 minutes in the morning. In the afternoon you get your lunch break. But essentially we're just again trying to make skills transferable, you know, to use your wording. Teddi: Right? Um, so we really do when we talk about the rules, accountability is a big piece. So and again, going back to substance abuse I'm very fortunate we don't run into that a lot here because the men understand we have medicines here. We have a lot of ceremonies here. And when you're on that path there's a certain level of respect for that. And, you know, in my 16 years I have seen different cases, different men come through who weren't ready to be here. And unfortunately, sometimes we have to move those cases on. Right. But my experience has been the men know what they have here. Teddi: And when you're actually trying to make that change and you're working towards reintegration, and you're working towards getting home and back to your home community. You you realize what you could lose. So there is a lot at stake for them. Um, but again, a lot of the men we get last step for release. Right? So he's probably within the next, you know, 18 months he's going to be back in the community. So really, I try to take the approach of what can we do to help get him there so that he doesn't come back to CSC. Kirstan: And you have strong ties with your community? Yes. And, um, I'm assuming you've had lots of stories of, um, the impact you've made on people's lives. Um, I. Teddi: Don't know if I have lots of stories, but. Kirstan: Well, I'm just wondering, does does do you ever see anyone in the community, um, come back to you and say, you know, thank you. Teddi: Maybe not expressed to me directly, but indirectly through the Elders, I know people are very appreciative of the work that we do, and especially when we're taking men out for community service, we really instill in them community services. Your piece on giving back, because a lot of the time there's wrongdoing and there's a community that was hurt there, right. And when we talked about victims, there's that restorative piece as well. And there's that responsibility for forgiveness and to seek that. Right. Um, so we do a lot of movement every year. Teddi: Um, so I know, um, the Elders, they hear it more directly than I would. And then of course, they come tell me. And so we really do. I really try to express to my team here, like, let's let's be out there, let's, let's see what we can do. Because right now, like we're in this First Nations community, we should be giving back as much as we can. How can we support? So when you were driving up to the institution, I think you might have seen the two. Um, I guess they would be like sheds. Teddi: So one of those are community sheds. So in there we actually take men out to provide, um, what we call grandfathers. So the rocks for sweat lodge ceremonies and wood as well for different ceremonies and people from the community can come and they can grab that and have that access, because some elders don't necessarily have, you know, people within their own direct homes to be able to come and help them and gather those materials. So we do that as a way of giving back. Kirstan: You've done a tremendous job like the the site is great, the staff are engaged, the residents seem, um, productively occupied, which is great. Um, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before we end? Teddi: Um, I think just some education. Right. Um, and maybe some understanding. You know, we talked earlier about impacts of intergenerational trauma. Really what we're trying to do here is re reconnection. And another, if I can say one of the things I'm really proud of, um, we have Cree language instilled in everything that we do here. The elders, they offer their teachings, they'll do it in English, but they'll give it in Cree. But we also have a contract for a Cree language instructor. A lot of times, what do we know about culture and language? You can't learn one without the other. Teddi: So really, what we're doing here, like, even if you look behind you, there's some, you know, there's Cree language on the boards there. And really, that's a huge piece when we talk about identity and loss of identity. Um, and I'm a big believer in that. So yeah, just reconnection is huge. And I think, you know, when I tried to think what? And I asked one of the Kokums, I'm like, what makes us different because we just do, right? We just do. Teddi: And she she looked at me kind of funny. And she's, she says, well, "you know, now, you know, hey, we win. You know our language, we speak Cree" and we, we make it a part of our, our daily work here and the ceremonies and really that's that's the key thing here. And the Elders, when you know, one of the questions, what makes you different? The Elders, the Elders and the staff like it's I think we all believe in what we're trying to do. And yeah, I'm just very fortunate. Kirstan: Great. Well, thank you for joining me. And thank you for your time today. Teddi: Well, thank you for having me. Kirstan: Up next, we'll hear from John, a resident who lives at Pê Sâkâstêw. In our conversation, John talks about his difficult journey in the federal correctional system and later explains just how vital this healing lodge was for him in his rehabilitation journey. Kirstan: So welcome. Thank you. Yeah. So tell me a bit about yourself. John: Uh, my name is John. I'm 47 years old from Muscogee, so I'm an urban skin band member. Um, you know, unfortunately, I'm a third time federal offender. Um, I served, you know, the majority of my life, actually, inside these places. And I'm, uh, I'm, I guess taking it a lot more serious into the way I live my life. And and in order to prevent from coming back here, uh, unfortunately, I've been, um, away or locked up for, you know, my, the majority of my children's lives. John: However, I'm at a point in my life now where, you know, it's time to start having grandchildren. And I intend to be, you know, a healthy grandfather for my grandchildren. And that kind of steers my ship, I guess, for lack of better words. Kirstan: Great. And do you, um, do you see your family while you're here? John: I do actually, like I shared, I'm from this community, and I'm fortunate enough to have, uh, access to to my family and, um, um, the ability to to show them, you know, the healthy version of myself instead of, you know, the person who's always not around or or locked up or kind of involved in some chaos in one way or another. So I'm fortunate to be, um, able to access my community. Something I learned along my journey is we suffer from effects of our Indigenous social history. John: And part of that for me is community fragmentation, family fragmentation, loss of my culture, loss of my language, all of these things. So I've been in a couple of different healing lodges, this one, as well as Stan Daniels. I prefer this place because like I shared, this is my home community and I have access to teachings and culture and ceremony from, you know, my own home community, which is really big for me. I'm, uh, I'm blessed with the opportunity to receive some cultural guidance and teachings from from a family member who's, who's kind of respected. John: He's a well-respected man in the community. And, and he's willing to to share that knowledge with me. And I take that seriously. You know, I hope to one day be able to retain that knowledge and share it like I shared with you before with my grandchildren. And to be, you know, a positive member of the community and not a hindrance to it like I was for, for many years. Yeah. Kirstan: And having been in in different places of the federal system. What would you say we could take away from what works? Well? John: I think the fact, like I shared, I've been at this stuff for a long time and, uh, you know, I wasn't given up on, you know, and and I'm fortunate for that because I looking back at my life, I could see how it is easy. It would be just to, you know, give up and carry on with maybe using some of these resources on somebody who's fresh to, to this stuff and whatnot. And, and I guess the big thing is, is, uh, you never know when somebody's ready. And I learned through 12 step involvement that you don't want to give up five minutes, five minutes before the miracle. John: Right? So, you know, you never know when somebody's going to start listening and paying attention and applying some of that stuff to their life. And I really feel that's where I'm at in my life. Mhm. Kirstan: It seems like you do a tremendous amount of work on yourself and also with others. Would you say those relationships are, um, a positive force in your, in your journey. John: Yeah, I think so. I was actually reading, um, so I have a parole hearing or a revocation hearing coming up right away. And I had some, some correspondence sent to me. And it's kind of based on how others view me. And I had kind of struggled with how how it read because, um, you know, I'm involved in a cultural lodge outside of here. Um, and, uh, it in there, it was shared that I'm a, I'm an asset to this lodge because I'm helpful with, you know, younger men struggling with, uh, uh, with the Warrior Teachings and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I was taught and it's starting to make sense to me that we need to lift. John: We need to be a warrior with the heart. A lot of times we think, you know, you need to be a warrior. And right away, our mind goes to a big, tough guy who's doing this and that. And really, it's about protecting our home fires and providing and and caring for those people around us and, and also showing, um, the younger ones a healthy way to cope, a healthy way to do things and, and not only to cope, but to celebrate. Because a lot of times I think we neglect to do that, to be grateful and when things are going good. But when things are bad, we're running to culture. We're running a ceremony in those things. Right? Or we only have family gatherings at funerals and stuff like that. John: So, um, I'm really big on on my involvement in that. And, you know, I had lost my, my late partner while I was locked up. And I was fortunate again to be able to attend her, her ceremonies. And I was listening to the Elders speak and he was saying, you know, pretty soon that generation is going to be gone. And if we don't start paying attention and pick these things up, who's going to be able to do those ceremonies for them? And that was quite impactful for me. And I'm like, I remember just making a decision to, you know, shut up and listen basically. John: Right. And as a matter of fact, this morning I smudge, one of the elders was saying that, you know, it's time for you guys to wake up and start living your life appropriately because, you know, we're we're the generation that's supposed to start carrying it on. And if more people don't take it serious, then where does it go? Right. So I really value those things. Kirstan: So you're giving back. You're giving back to your community. Is that important? John: That's really important for me. Like I've been, um. Again, I was just talking to one of the Elders about this I'm working on right now. Um, gaining, uh, some songs. And unfortunately, there are songs revolving around, you know, death. So to be able to support at weeks and funerals and such. Um, however, I struggled with that, and I couldn't deal with death for most of my life. And I think by continuing to support people in the community like that prepares me or keeps me grounded for when it comes again, because it does, it'll always come again. John: And and I'll just feel I'm better prepared to cope and I'll know what to do. It becomes second nature. Rather than shutting down and reaching out to substitutes or whatever it is running away. I'll know. Okay, this is a ceremony. We need to light the fire. We need, you know, there's certain roles that each one of us have in a community that, uh, um, I'll possess. I'll know what to do, and I'll be able to share. Kirstan: And what do you do here at the site for work? John: I, uh, I'm actually kind of where I met you guys over there earlier. I have a post there. I'm. I'm kind of the the doorman between case management and the offenders. So when they come there and they need to see a parole officer or an ill or any of those things, I can kind of go see if they're free and kind of help that on. I also sow teepees, I got hired back on to so teepees uh, to help out there and uh, yeah, whatever. I just like to keep busy. Yeah. Kirstan: We saw someone making a teepee earlier. It's quite a bit of work. Yeah, yeah, but it looks really good when it's all, uh, kind of laid out and I'm assuming put together. John: Yeah, I think that it's really good, too, because I've had. I learned how to make teepees here when I was here formerly, and I was able to take that to the community. So I made teepees in the community and kind of help subsidize some of my living expenses and stuff like that, but also able to contribute to, you know, teachings, teaching opportunities. Right. So it's, uh, that's valuable. Kirstan: Absolutely. And are there any other skills that you you would you wouldn't have learned otherwise? That you have an opportunity to do being here? John: I think for me, well, cooking because like I shared, I was locked up for a long time and I was actually talking again with one of my roommates today. He's like, are you like a typically just a fast food guy out there? I said, well, if we're being frank, um, you know, I spent a lot of time in here. So typically, if we're talking typically somebody prepared my meals for me a long time. Right? So I'm learning to cook. I'm learning to budget. I'm learning some of those things that are important in the community. Yeah. Um, you know, I got chainsaw tickets. I have got, you know, skid steer training, zoom boom training, first aid, um, valuable tickets that are, you know, implementable in. John: In fact, one of our guys from here where we're at a ceremony and somebody was choking. And as a result of him being able to take first aid here, I was able to help out there. So that was something. Kirstan: Yeah. Save a life. You never know when you'll need it, right? Kirstan: Yeah. That's great. And so in terms of, um, food, like I've, I've visited other places and there are different models. And I guess in minimum part of it is I guess, um, like you said, budgeting. And then would you guys sometimes cook meals altogether and share? John: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we in our house, we do like typical suppers. You know, we kind of fend for herself for breakfast and lunch, and then we'll do suppers together or holidays, like the committee here buys turkeys and such, and, and it's, uh, it's good. Like, it's it's it's a legit sense of community. Right. And and that's another reason why I like it here. Because everybody's like minded, you know. So it's, it's it's a lot different than the medium. You know I come from Drumheller Medium where everybody's walking with a chip on their shoulder and have something to prove. John: And, and you know, maybe 20 years ago that was me. But I'm far beyond that. I don't have I don't have that. I don't even want to say skill. But you know what I mean. That's I used to value that lifestyle. And now I shake my head like, how could I because I wasted so much time, you know, being away from my family. Kirstan: Mhm. Yeah. Kirstan: But it seems like you're on the right path and they, they're still in your life and you're looking forward to the future. John: Yeah. Kirstan: And so what do the Elders bring you. We just uh spoke with one and she was lovely and she seemed to be such a good listener. John: I think I have an idea who you're talking about. Kirstan: Yeah. John: And she brings, like, to my life. I can only speak about myself right now, but she brings joy. Like, every morning I sit right outside. Her office is where I kind of live my day, my workday, and and we're always kind of cracking jokes and whatnot. And, and but at the same time, she has, uh, you know, very valuable teachings that if you're willing to listen, you can catch them. And there's so meaningful, you know, and in fact, as I shared before, we were, uh. When I lost my partner, she gave me a teaching regarding grief and loss. John: And, uh, part of the life I was living in the community was being, you know, offered tobacco to speak at some of these ceremonies that I was at. And I had the opportunity to share those teachings, and, and and that's exactly what I'm talking about is where I'm getting these teachings from the Elders and, and and sharing them and, and feeling good about it because it's it's supporting the community. Right. And it's not, you know, being drunk and acting up because I'm hurt or angry or any of that stuff. I'm actually being, you know, supportive and helpful in, in living a good life. John: Because what it all boils down to, I believe, is, uh, life. It's all about life nowadays. Right? It's. And a good life. There's a difference between, you know, just accepting, okay, this is where we're at. And, you know, life sucks and this and that and staying there or doing something about it and being proactive and getting the help, getting getting the counseling or attending AA or sweats or any of those things and and living a better life and. Kirstan: Yeah. And, uh, would you say, um, it's easy to remain hopeful and positive? John: Yeah, yeah. Kirstan: More so. Yeah. John: I'm, uh. So again, I was at a chicken dance ceremony not far from here, and I was standing outside the lodge listening to the Elders speak, and one of our elders from the community, um, was talking about when something tragic happens or when when life sucks. We're presented with an opportunity. We can run to our old coping skills, which generally don't get us anywhere. But, you know, for my, in my case, back to prison, um, or we can choose to do something good. We can support families, we can go to ceremony, we can do all of those things. John: And, uh, the following morning, my niece was airlifted to the University of Alberta Hospital unexpected to live. And, uh, you know, I remembered that teaching. And I thought, okay, this is it. This is what he was talking about. I can give up. I can shut down, I can act out, I can take off because I was on a UTA. Uh, or I could attend a ceremony, pray, have faith. And so that's what I chose to do. So she was taken. Then she was okay, she's going to make it, but she's probably going to have brain damage. John: She's not going to be any of that. So I was in Stan Daniels at that time, and I was I was given the opportunity to visit her in hospital. So I did for a few days that week. That following weekend, there was a Sundance Ceremony and another reserve, uh, close to Edmonton. And again, I was presented with that opportunity. So once again, I chose ceremony. I went there, I worked tied prints, said prayers, you know, supported that community. And lo and behold, if my niece didn't come show up there on the last day that ceremony, walking and happy and calling me, making fun of me, and you know what I mean? So that really instilled my faith that, you know, this is this is it. John: This is like. Kirstan: You're calling. John: Right? And and if I chose to, to shut down or talk and take off or any of that foolish stuff, then, you know, he had to be back in jail, probably with a longer sentence. I was a person who didn't stop, like when I. When I gave up, I gave up, my hands were in the air and I was taking off and drinking and drugging and, you know, committing crimes. And who knows how long I would have. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you, I could guarantee you that. Right. So I'm able to think about consequences now I guess is is the biggest thing I got at all that. Kirstan: Mhm. It seems like you've done a tremendous amount of work on yourself. Um, but you're also now in a space where you're giving back to others and trying to funnel, uh, you know, your, your learnings in a productive manner and in a positive way. Um, but you've also gone through an awful lot in your life. You it sounds like you've been through a lot of really difficult things. Um, and, uh, what do you do when you you feel triggered or something happens? You you fall back on your your learnings? John: Yeah. John: My teachings teaching. So the first thing I do, I guess depending on time or day or any of that type of stuff is, uh, I'll smudge. I'll pray, I'll allow. Okay. It's okay to feel however I'm feeling. Okay. Right. And and I'm not in danger. I'm not in imminent danger of anything going on. And then I'll turn to somebody. I'll talk to somebody, you know? And. And we're fortunate here where I could talk to Teddy, I could talk to generally anybody on site. The Elders are great. And and, you know, if it's a weekend, I could talk to the guys around me. Like, I shared that we're pretty, well all like minded around here and supportive and that aspect. Kirstan: Right. So something I've learned again through some 12 step stuff is no matter how big the problem is, if I address it right away, it can't build up. Right. And and there's a term in there. Well, it's not really a term I was saying in there that those little problems, if you don't address them, they're like termites. They're they erode your foundation. Right. So if you don't allow them to do that, then you're. Kirstan: Lifts you up, right. John: And you're well more prepared to deal with them in a good way. Right. Kirstan: Mhm. Kirstan: Well thank you so much for sharing that story. Is there anything in closing that you'd like to leave with our listeners? John: I just think I'd like to say that, you know, don't give up on each other. Don't give up on yourself in particular because like I said, you don't know when when that turning point is or what it's going to take and and be willing to listen. Yeah, I guess that's that's what I got. Kirstan: So lend a hand when you can. John: Yeah. Kirstan: Pitch in, be a community. Come together. John: Right. Kirstan: Yeah. Great. Kirstan: Well, wonderful. And best of luck to you in your journey. And, uh, you have a lot to look forward to. John: Yeah. Thank you. Kirstan: Thank you. Kirstan: Thanks again to Teddi and all of the other incredible staff members at Pê Sâkâstêw for their hospitality. This has been a production of the Correctional Service of Canada, and I've been your host, Kirstan Gagnon. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time.