Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / When Clients Ask What to Do: Where Legal Advice Ends and Coaching Ethics Begin with Lauren Fair
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy Podcast. I am Tracy, and today we are exploring one of the most common and often most ethically nuanced questions divorce professionals hear. What should I do? Whether it comes from fear, uncertainty, overwhelm, or simply a desire for reassurance. Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention. This question shows up time and time again every day in divorce. Clients are often facing decisions that will impact their finances, their children, their future relationships, and their sense of identity. They want answers. They want certainty. And sometimes they simply just want someone they trust to tell them what to do. At Divorce Coaches Academy, we talk about divorce as a conflict process, not simply a legal process. And nowhere is that more evident than in these moments. When clients ask what they should do, they are often not looking for information alone. They're looking for relief from uncertainty. As professionally trained divorce coaches, We need to understand that our role is not to make decisions for clients. Our role is to help clients think more clearly, better understand their options, engage more effectively in conflict, and move forward in a way that aligns with their own values, priorities, and goals. And to join me for this conversation, Bringing a particularly valuable perspective to this conversation is my friend and colleague, an essential member of the DCA team, as an educational mentor and advisor, Lauren Fair. Hi, Lauren. Lauren Fair: Hi Tracy. Thanks for having me back on the podcast. Tracy Callahan: I'm so happy to have you here. So for those that may not remember or have heard of Lauren, she is many thanks. She is a certified family law specialist, mediator, family law attorney with more than 17 years of experience helping individuals and families navigate divorce and family law matters. But that's not all she does. In addition to her legal work, Lauren has pursued extensive Training and divorce coaching, conflict resolution, co-parenting, and dispute resolution processes because she recognizes what many family law professionals see every single day. Clients often need more than legal guidance alone. They need support and guidance and understanding the process, managing conflict, exploring options, preparing for important conversations. In making decisions in a way that allows them to move forward with confidence. What makes Lauren's perspective especially valuable is that she has sat on both sides of this conversation. Sat continues to sit. She understands the role and responsibilities of legal counsel, but she also understands the power of education, preparation, and conflict-informed coaching in helping clients make decisions. without someone else making those decisions for them. So today we're going to explore where legal advice ends, where coaching begins, and why helping clients build clarity and decision-making capacity, my new favorite word, may be one of the most important services professionals can provide. That's a lot, Lauren. Lauren Fair: Yay, let's do it. I love this topic, Tracy. Tracy Callahan: Yes, good, good. All right. So let's just dive in, right? As both an attorney and a divorce coach, how have you seen this question, what should I do show up differently in those different roles from those different seats? Lauren Fair: Sure, yeah. I think as an attorney, when I have a client that asks me what to do, I think it has always been about like the client perceiving that I as the professional have more information that they than they do. I think that I have particularized expertise ⁓ and experience in it. And so they're really looking for more of like an expert opinion about what they should do. I think that's how I viewed it, at least from my perspective as an attorney. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lauren Fair: and then in the coaching role I think it's a little different though. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. So what does that look like in the coaching role? Lauren Fair: Yeah. I think in the coaching role, I I perceive that question just differently. I think there's some overlap where I think they do perceive the coach also, right? To be more experienced, to have more information that they do. And, you know, that's why they're hiring you, right? You're the professional to help guide them. And so sometimes they want your input from your expert kind of position of what they should do at that particular point. But I think it it goes beyond that. And this is part of the, I think, the shift for me from Being in solely an attorney role versus having that coaching experience is I can see beyond that first impression of like, ⁓ they just want this expert opinion, right? That might be it. And I think oftentimes it is. Like there's an at least an element of it that is them wanting that that expertise. But I think it can be other things. Like, for example, ⁓ it can be A lack of self-trust around decision making that has developed for different reasons. It could be like this is the client's way of making decisions. Like they're used to in their life making decisions through like pulling other people or for from maybe even you know the spouse that they're separating from. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Lauren Fair: May have been like their person that they went to to talk through decisions. And now without that person, they might feel like a fish out of water to an extent about like, well, now what do I do? Right. With decision making, I need to find someone else now to ask what I should do. ⁓ so and I I think it also can just be overwhelm, right? It could be that the client needs support in figuring out. Tracy Callahan: ⁓ Yeah, Lauren Fair: what they want to consider in their decision-making process, having more awareness brought to what their decision-making process is, or maybe it's how it shifted in the transition, and figuring out what else they might need to know in order to make a decision. So maybe you are providing some information, right, that they need in order to make a decision, you're helping them articulate where else they need to get that information from. But with that information, perhaps they actually might be able to make their own decision. Right. So to me it's it's a lot more nuanced, right, when you're looking at it from a coaching Tracy Callahan: Absolutely, and I I think your point about having somebody else, right? If their entire marriage was based On having that source of support or guidance and decision making and now they don't have that. I also recognize that for a lot of clients, they don't feel very comfortable having some of these big questions regarding money and kids with family or friends, especially if they feel it's a little more private or seeking a more confidential process in that. So there's not a lot of access to people. ⁓ And I also think, you know, one of the things that we talk about is is, you know, why somebody might want someone else to tell them what to do during divorce. Aside from the complete lack of perhaps understanding about the process or what that process looks like, there's that fear. And that fear shows up sometimes of, you know, almost not wanting to bear the responsibility of what if I make the wrong decision? Lauren Fair: Right. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: And that carries a really, really heavy load. And I don't know about you, but sometimes if I'm polling and and ⁓ you know the majority of people says I should do this and I go with that. And then if it didn't work out the way I want it, I'm like, I have somebody else to say, well, they told me to do that. I wouldn't have, right? And we can sort of, I don't want to say scapegoat it, but sort of relieve ourselves from the outcome of that decision. What are your thoughts? on that that you know, why clients want someone else to tell them what to do or Lauren Fair: Yeah, I I think sometimes that is the case. I I'm not sure that it's always conscious, right? That that might be why they're doing it, but it that can be under the surface, potentially what it is. And I think one theme I see across a lot of clients is a deterioration in self-trust that seems to happen over the period of time where the bearage is breaking down and then there's a separation. And Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Lauren Fair: It seems to kind of track back to for some clients, like I made the decision to marry this person, and then this happened. So now I don't trust myself to make good decisions anymore because this is not what I saw happening from my life. And based upon my decision to hire this person or to hire them, to marry them, then you know, this is this is the outcome that I now have. Right. And so, ⁓ especially if there's betrayal involved, you know, it's like, okay, I didn't see it, I should have seen it, like I don't trust myself in many areas. And so that can bleed over, I think, into making decisions in the in the divorce process. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Such a a significant point, I think. The other thing to to that trust factor, Ray, I often see clients who also don't trust themselves because they stayed in the marriage. Right. Not only how do trust myself because I married this person and here I am in those betrayal processes, but also, you know, how did I stay so long in this process in this? Lauren Fair: Yeah. Mm. Tracy Callahan: And trusting myself now to even to go forward with that divorce process, sort of ⁓ that that lack of confidence and being able to effectively navigate something that that does have some potential impacts in in a variety of different ways, but the impact that they've also exposed themselves to and staying in the marriage well beyond the point of which they knew that they needed to get out. I think Lauren Fair: Yeah, yeah. Tracy Callahan: There's so many, I think there's so many ⁓ things that are so individually ⁓ driven with our clients based upon their histories and their marriage and their process in decision making. I also think that one of the things that is evident is just people's lack of experience in decision making. And and not only that decision making, but a value-based decision making process, which is a little different than also because in divorce, as we're navigating these big value decisions about children, about finances, about identity, there's not we don't have a whole hell of a lot of experience in doing that. I mean, can you think of anything in your life where you've had that many decisions to make with such impact? I don't know. Lauren Fair: No, I don't think so. And I think, you know, we just don't typically have a good understanding of how we make decisions until we're prompted to look at that. And I think coaches can can offer that to their clients when appropriate, to really look at what is my decision making process and do I like that, right? Or is that something that developed over time because of Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lauren Fair: the dynamics of the marriage or just experiences that they had, you know, and is that something that they want to carry forward? Like is that really helping them to make the best decisions now? Or is is there another way that they want to go about it? Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Well, and I you know, when we talk about sort of divorce being all of this fear, which we often say are questions waiting to be asked and answered, this uncertainty coupled with high emotion, right? One of the things that we do as divorce coaches is support an educational process. So how do you see education helping reduce fear for clients? Lauren Fair: I I view it as education is just power, right? I think that it helps them in a couple of ways. One is that I find that clients who are particularly at the beginning of a process where they don't have maybe a lot of interaction yet with professionals involved in the process, right? Maybe it's like the marriage is broken down, things are not good, and there's there's threats being made, maybe in that dynamic. And I that's one place where I see oftentimes Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Lauren Fair: A lot of fear creep up and there not be, you know, sometimes like you talk about staying longer. I think that's a result sometimes of those types of interactions. You know, things are said, you're never gonna see the kids, you're not gonna get a dime, like that kind of thing. And so some of those dynamics play into why somebody stays longer in certain situations. And so I find that whether it's in an attorney role or in a coaching role, after I've met with a client. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Lauren Fair: Who has been in that type of situation, or even if they're not in a situation where they're being threatened, I think in that situation it's more just overwhelmed. Like I've never been through this process and I don't even know where to start, and you know, all of that. I think the education allows them ⁓ to in the former case, just kind of debunk the potential likelihood of those threats being carried out, right? So, like, okay, I need to know is that is that really gonna happen? Am I really gonna get Zero support? Am I really going to, you know, never see my kids again? Right. And once you're able to get more education around those types of issues, then it just starts to, I think, increase the client's power in those dynamics, like because they have the power of the education around it. So that, okay, then if they're threatened in the future, it doesn't produce the same reaction in them because, you know, they know what what the you know the facts are. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Lauren Fair: I think the other thing is when particularly like in the overwhelm situation where it's just like I don't know what I don't know here, I think in even in the in the other situation too where there's more kind of an active threat dynamic. when we don't know something and it's overwhelming, I think the the brain makes it seem even scarier, right? Like sometimes like the unknown is just more scary than actually knowing something, even if it's not the the answer we want. So if we can just take unknown factors and make them more known to a degree, then even if it's something that we don't necessarily like, like knowing what it is allows the brain then I think to shift more into problem solving mode. Like, okay, I know this is the risk, right? If I move forward or Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Lauren Fair: ⁓ you know, I know that this is what I'm looking at if I make this choice. Okay, so even if I don't like that result, it wouldn't be my preference. How can I now take action to make the best of that? Right. Or it's just kind of, you know, I think it just brings down the fear to have more concreteness to what the future looks like as opposed to when you don't, it just I think you run the risk of it being made scarier than it really is. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, we can catastrophize it, right? We can take all of these fears and threats and couple them together and it's like the boogie monster. Right? There was a study about people getting electric shocks. I don't remember who did the the behavioral assessment, but ⁓ the the groups had a choice, right, that they could get actually Lauren Fair: Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: money if they were part of a group that didn't know whether they were gonna get shocked or not. If you chose to be part of the group that you knew you were gonna get shocked, those people you wouldn't get the money, but the everybody chose the majority of people chose to know when they were going to get shocked. Right? Because we brace ourselves. If I know what's expected or what's coming, I can brace myself or prepare myself for that process. And I think that is why it is such a key component of education Lauren Fair: Uh-huh. Tracy Callahan: And helping clients understand, be able to reality test and explore some of those threats and those more amorphous things that may be said or utilized or weaponized against people in the divorce process. So as we're talking about this education piece, right, from your perspective, what do you see this difference between educating clients so they can better understand their options? Right? Again, because we're not making decisions for them versus advising them on which option to choose. Lauren Fair: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I see laying out the options as kind of like a platter for the client, right? Like I'm explaining to them all of the different choices that are on the platter for selection. And then asking questions of them to help elicit factors that would help the client be able to figure out which one of these would be the best match for me. So sometimes like in a coaching role, that might look like You know, asking them questions around like values, priorities, desired outcomes, desired experiences of the process itself. ⁓ And then kind of explaining here what the different options are, and then potentially reflecting back things I've heard that might be more a match for one option versus the other. And then checking in with the client, like, you know, if you lay out options, okay, after I've done that. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Lauren Fair: Are there any that kind of jump out at you right away as ones that seem more like aligned with what you're looking for? And then check in with what their understanding is and kind of reflect back some things that they've shared that might be helpful for them to hear, you know, might be in alignment with a particular option over another, versus like telling the client what to do. I think I think sometimes when people do that, one, they don't lay out what all the options are. So the client actually never even knows that there are other options. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah. It may be more like somewhat and and again, I'm not ⁓ saying this is true for all attorneys, but what my experience is a lot of is is sometimes it's a very black and white, right? We don't look at all of these sort of shades of gray in between. some of these options that are often ⁓ more in align with statute or what can and cannot be proven in a court of law, if you will. Lauren Fair: Right. Yeah, definitely. I think an important thing that a coach can help clients see is that legal advice is is one factor among others, potentially in their decision making process. And I think it's a shift for attorneys too to even see, okay, like the legal advice or what the law would do or what the court would do on this issue, right? It's just that's a factor, but that doesn't have to be the only one, you know. Tracy Callahan: No, I think it's such a it's such a an important piece, right? It is one component, it is one factor that needs to be taken into consideration, but there are so many other factors at play. Lauren Fair: Yeah. ⁓ I think ⁓ no, sorry, I don't I was just gonna say, like I would just was had having this conversation the other day in our in our mentee group. It's like I think when you when you don't prompt the client to look at what else may be important for them, it's just you're just missing so much of the good stuff for the client to really explore that will lead them to make better decisions ultimately. Tracy Callahan: Have you have you found ⁓ okay, go ahead. Absolutely, absolutely. That's like really we often talk about that discovery process, right? As an archaeological dig as we're using our powerful curious questions as divorce coaches for the client to start developing greater awareness of their feeling and their thinking and how their thinking and feeling is impacting their behavior, which is ultimately impacting their ability to make decisions and moving forward or what that would look like for them. And when we don't take the time to really do that, there are missed opportunities because you can't come in with a jackhammer. You're just gonna miss it. Right. And and that work it does take a little longer, but I think as you were saying earlier in regards to the education piece, being able to understand the process and then being able to have better clarity around What's important to me, what my needs, interests, what my why is, what I'm looking at accomplishing moving forward. That's the secret sauce. Right. When you can sort of take it all together and the client now has this education and and understanding can demystify some of those barriers or look greater opportunities now aligning it with sort of that discovery of understanding what What is significant to them, then it kind of funnels into that process of being able to support intentional and informed decision making, which I think is is the work that we absolutely try to do in divorce coaching. So have you found that clients sometimes mistake clarity for direction? Right. In other words, wanting somebody to tell them what to do versus helping them understand what matters most to them. Lauren Fair: Yes. I think so. And I think I think it just comes from overwhelm a lot of the time, you know, and just wanting out of it. Like if somebody can just sort of help me make this decision, right, then I can be be out of it. But it's like I think part of what our role should be is recognizing that the client, right, in the right scenario is just is a whole person who is capable of making the best decision for them. If they have Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Yeah. Lauren Fair: the education that they need and the support that they need, right, to make those decisions during a really difficult emotional time, you know. So, you know, I think clients can see once they have that education and that support in the space, right, to make that decision, that they're option they're able to do that without being told. Because really at the end of the day, like I don't think any of us really want to be told what to do necessarily. It's Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Lauren Fair: It's Tracy Callahan: you that's a no for me, Lauren. I do not like being told what to do, which is no surprise to anybody listening out there who knows me. Yeah. No, I don't I agree. I think people don't like to be told what to do. I think sometimes it is an easier if this gets me right to the other side faster, then I might do it. But I feel like being told often then results in a lot of regret or resentment or carrying forth a lot of Baggage related to that process. Lauren Fair: Right. Yeah, I think it's really important for the client to own the decisions that they're making, you know, in the divorce. And they can they can do that well, they can be set up well to do that, right, through the work that they're doing with with coach. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. All right. So as someone with both legal and divorce coach training, right, you've got the the amazing perspective from both sides. What have you learned about the importance of staying within scope while still being highly valuable to clients? ⁓ I'm talking about us as divorce coaches staying within our scope and not teetering over to legal advisement, the unauthorized practice of law, or somehow misleading clients as to whether their quote unquote opinion can be constituted as legal scope creep. Lauren Fair: Yeah, I think it's really important, particularly for the advancement of divorce coaching in the industry, for coaches to stay in their lane so that they are more readily accepted onto the team, if you will. And I think too, it's important for clients that they're not confused about who is doing what, and that they're not. In a situation where they have one professional kind of stepping on the toes of another one. particularly if you're, you know, a coach who's not an attorney and not able to give legal advice. I mean, that's not only a legal problem, but it also is confusing for the client, right? To the extent maybe that conflicts with something that the attorney said. And that can create more challenge for a client who's already trying to navigate. different people's opinions, right? Those might be lay opinions from family members and friends and stuff, right? And then in addition to opinions they're getting from an attorney. And then, you know, I think if if you're stiering out of your lane, you're making that even more challenging for the client to know what the right thing is. but it's it's important if you want to work on a team with attorneys, with financial professionals, et cetera. Everybody's got to stay in their own lane for the professionals to want to continue to do that with you. Tracy Callahan: hundred percent that that that professional trust and respect has to be earned right it has to be demonstrated and earned so that we can continue to move the field forward. ⁓ we just did a ⁓ continuing at ⁓ lunch and learn ⁓ this week on micro boundaries and divorce coaching and sort of it's these small violations right the large violations are easy to pick out Right? It's these small violations that build upon each other that is the real concern that I see within divorce coaching. And then that can be something as simple as a client saying, Hey, you know, what do you think about this parenting plan? Right. And and now the this coach, in a ⁓ small micro boundary away, may give their opinion on the parenting plan. And again, not our role. Our role is not to give an opinion or advisement on a parenting plan. And yet it's very nuanced because if the ultimate goal is for the client to get clarity on what their opinion is, does that parenting plan align with the things that they were talking about in the work that they were doing in understanding the legal advisement that they were perhaps given in regards to? decision making in alignment with what they shared as their interests or concerns for their children. We then can utilize the power of the work that we do in an exploratory process of helping the client then ask that question of themselves. But it simply takes the divorce coach not stepping over that boundary and shifting it and being able to say, you know I I I love that you're interested in what my thoughts are, but I'm interested in what your thoughts are. What came up for you when you looked at that parenting plan? How do you think that parenting plan or the terms in your parenting plan represented what your intentions were in your proposal negotiations? I mean, I can go on and on and on and give a list. So there is this way because what I think doesn't matter. And and I'm sorry, but I even would Potentially say the same for legal advisement. What matters most is what that client is doing with that information. Right. And how and how it shows up and how they're moving forward. Certainly, legal advice is essential as they're navigating a legal process of divorce. But then we we extend beyond that, right? It's not just covered by these simple statutes and no court. Is telling you all how to show up as co parents. Lauren Fair: Right. Exactly. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. I mean I can go on a diatribe of that. ⁓ we no one no one needs to hear any more of my thoughts on that, right? So so as divorce coaching continues to evolve, you know, why do you think professionalism, competency, and ethical boundaries matter to the future of the field, right? We just talked about that trust building, demonstrated competency with professionals. Now we're talking about This this trajectory of the work that we do in divorce coaching, which I believe is growing by leaps and bounds every single day as clients are becoming more consumer savvy. So yeah, I mean the the studies about how many people are or even self-represented. Lauren Fair: ⁓ I mm hmm. Tracy Callahan: A study out of California whereas nearly eighty percent ⁓ of clients are at least one party is being self-represented. So people are becoming ⁓ more educated also in their role as a a client or a consumer in the divorce industry, which is a billion dollar industry. I think people are becoming more budget savvy also in in terms of saying, you know, I don't want to take my kids' college fund. and and toss it over to a a bunch of professionals ⁓ in that way. So what what are your thoughts? Lauren Fair: Yeah, no, I agree. I see the that's those same trends. And I mean certainly have had wealthy clients who can afford to spend a lot on the divorce who are just choosing to go through a different process. Like they don't want to spend a lot of money on that, even if they have plenty of money for the college funds. Like, but is this really necessary? Is this what we want to do with our money? And it and more importantly, like, is this what we want to do to our family? And I think more people are being more mindful about Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Lauren Fair: How conflict is handled and opting for different processes. And so I think as that continues to be a shift that we're making, the role of coaches in being, you know, competent and professional and ethical is really it's really critical. I think, you know, I can remember back to when I first heard about a divorce coach. This was a long time ago. This was before DCA existed, you know. And I had been working in family law for a long time at that point. And I had never heard of a divorce coach. I never heard of a client who had one, any colleagues who knew of anything about it. And I had ⁓ a a f a friend say, ⁓ hey, you know, I know this divorce coach who's in my networking group. You should connect with her. She could be a resource for you. And my immediate reaction as an attorney at that point was like, I wasn't open to it. You know, and the and the reason was because I didn't know what they were. There was no, you know, the education around that or awareness, like there is starting to be a lot more of now. ⁓ and and also because my perception in an uneducated way at the time was that this would be somebody who wasn't professional but just sort of like knew enough to be dangerous and would just be ⁓ like problematic in the process. And if I had understood that This person was gonna stay in their lane, that they were a professional, ethical, competent, and actually a support to a to a client, particularly in in high conflict situations as an attorney, to have somebody supporting clients like that would be a huge benefit. and I think, you know, if those things had been clear, I would have had a very different reaction back then. But it took a long, a long time to kind of, you know, better understand. And so I offer that just to say there are a lot of attorneys who still Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Lauren Fair: Are of that mindset, right? They don't understand it. They're worried about their toes being stepped on. They're worried about people not being professional. And so it makes it so much more important for us to ⁓ hold high standards, right, for divorce coaches so that they can continue to be on the team, be in the rooms, right, where they can be really impactful because they're so needed in the industry. ⁓ and I think attorneys are becoming more open to it and we just need to continue to ⁓ send the right message, right, around the presence of a divorce coach on the Tracy Callahan: Yeah, and raising the standards. I mean, for as many family law attorneys in my work that I have encountered that do have some concerns about toe stepping and and people giving legal advice or telling clients what to do, that's going to be counterintuitive to what they would tell their client, right? I'm also seeing some exciting advancements in And family law practices and these new sort of limited scope practices that are bringing on divorce coaches as part of their practice. And and Lauren, you've been doing such amazing work in in setting a standard for this. And ⁓ Lauren also leads out of our DCA community, facilitates a group of just family law attorneys and other attorneys who are ⁓ duly certified as divorce coaches because I think there's a really a a a really amazing path that we're seeing move forward that's that's different than the that was modeled on the collab law process. Right. This is this is sort of more of a a more comprehensive, holistic approach, the work that ⁓ that we all are doing and all have a space for ⁓ with clients and supporting them in minimizing conflict, preserving families. Lauren Fair: Yes. Tracy Callahan: preserving people's health and sanity, ⁓ both professionally and for our clients. So there there's lots of work to do. And I am so happy to have you as part of the pioneers leading this because it's still pioneer land, right? We're still kind of in the Wild West and we're kind of staking down land as we're they're crossing this terrain. So I want to thank you so much, Lauren, for joining us today and for sharing your Perspective. One of the themes that stood out, I think, throughout this conversation is that helping clients does not require us to tell them what to do. In fact, some of the most meaningful support we can provide comes from helping clients better understand their options, identify what matters most to them, navigate conflict more effectively, and to really be able to develop the confidence to make decisions on their own. Right. And and this distinction between education and advice is really important because between support and direction, right? But perhaps most importantly is helping clients build their own capacity, capacity, which is what creates that lasting confidence long after the divorce process ends. So as the field of divorce coaching continues to evolve as a profession. Conversations like this become increasingly important. Professionalism, demonstrated competency, ethical boundaries, a clear understanding of scope are not limitations on our work. It is what strengthens the profession and allows us to be able to provide meaningful value to the clients that we serve. And I also think Lauren's professional journey. Reflects something we're seeing more and more throughout our family law community. Right? Lauren was already an accomplished family law attorney when she first pursued divorce coach training. Yet, like many professionals working in and around divorce, she recognized that clients often need more than legal information and wanted something else for herself more professionally. Right. We can support navigating conflict and managing uncertainty and preparing for difficult conversations and understanding options and on and on and on, such ⁓ with such better ⁓ processes for clients to be able to do this for themselves. So I wanna thank you all so much for for joining us. If you are interested in developing these skills, whether you're an attorney or a mediator, mental health professional, financial professional, or someone looking to build a divorce coaching practice, the next US and Canada-based ADR divorce coach certification training program is going to begin at the end of the summer, August 23rd, with Australia and New Zealand following closely, and then the Arabian Gulf in September. so please feel free to check it out at divorcecoachesacademy.com. Lauren, I wanna thank you again for sharing your insight and experience with our listeners. We're so happy have you. Thanks. And we wanna thank everyone listening until next time. Please remember that our value is not found in telling clients what to do. Our value is found in helping them better understand. So I wanna thank you so much. Lauren Fair: Thank you, Pracy. Thanks.