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Christianity and Marginalized People: Part 4 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stephon.
0:07
Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeartRadio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And yeah, we're just expanding our series on Christianity and
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Speaker 2: the Marginalized Community, and I'm expanding it a lot. What
0:30
Speaker 2: became It's going to be two three episodes as I think,
0:33
Speaker 2: almost extended to seven or eight. We'll see. Is no
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Speaker 2: surprise that there is a limitless amount of controversy and
0:43
Speaker 2: information when it comes to Christianity, especially Western nice Christianity,
0:49
Speaker 2: especially during this time as we are seeing more and
0:51
Speaker 2: more movements like the Christian Nationalism. And I really wish
0:56
Speaker 2: we could come with good things, but because I am
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Speaker 2: who I am, everything is sad, everything is the worst, and
1:03
Speaker 2: this one is no different. And as you know, when
1:09
Speaker 2: it comes to religious trauma and Christianity, there is a
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Speaker 2: lot of baggage, and today's topic is very, very heavy.
1:17
Speaker 2: I'm going to go ahead and give you this content warning.
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Speaker 2: We are going to tell explicit stories of sexual abuse
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Speaker 2: within the churches, specifically in the Southern Baptist community. Surprisingly,
1:29
Speaker 2: did not jump into any of the Catholic issues or
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Speaker 2: even the issues that have happened in some of the
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Speaker 2: other religions or communities. I guess because as of the
1:40
Speaker 2: last couple of years, there's been some really big fallout
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Speaker 2: when it comes to women being harassed, abused, all of
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Speaker 2: the things within the Southern Baptist community and Baptist community
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Speaker 2: in general. So it's a lot and with that, it's
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Speaker 2: also very personal for me, I will say as a survivor,
2:04
Speaker 2: I guess of some things that have been triggered pretty
2:08
Speaker 2: heavily by this episode. So I'm sorry in advance. If
2:13
Speaker 2: you can't handle it, I get it. It was a
2:15
Speaker 2: lot to work through. It's a lot to work through. Again,
2:19
Speaker 2: do what you need to do to keep your own safety,
2:23
Speaker 2: to be in a good place. And if this is
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Speaker 2: something that you can't handle, we get it, skip past it.
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Speaker 2: But for those of you who might not know what
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Speaker 2: we're talking about, who might not know what happens within
2:35
Speaker 2: communities like this, it's really important that we do have
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Speaker 2: this conversation. And the reason we are naming names is
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Speaker 2: telling stories. A lot of the people who came forward,
2:44
Speaker 2: it took a lot of courage for them to come forward,
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Speaker 2: and we think we owe them that to share as
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Speaker 2: they have shared as well. So that's the top here
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Speaker 2: we go. Previously we talked about purity culture and modesty
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Speaker 2: and how it coincides with rape culture. And something that
3:01
Speaker 2: has become a scandal and controversy for churches across the
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Speaker 2: world are the many accusations of sexual abuse and the
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Speaker 2: mishandling of allegations of sexual abuse and rape. And as
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Speaker 2: the industries all over the world had to face the
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Speaker 2: me too era, so did the church, and as Capital
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Speaker 2: C Church in twenty seventeen, the hashtag church to spread
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Speaker 2: on Twitter as different users told their stories of abuse
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Speaker 2: within the church.
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Speaker 1: As journalist Elizah Griswold wrote in The New Yorker for
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Speaker 1: her article titled silence is not spiritual, the evangelical hashtag
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Speaker 1: me too movement quote when the hashtag church two movement
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Speaker 1: started last November with abuse survivors telling stories of being
3:40
Speaker 1: silenced by church leaders, many said that they had been
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Speaker 1: told to submit. The creators of church to Hanna Passion
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Speaker 1: to Emily Joy have talked about their experiences and continue
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Speaker 1: to help people work through their own stories. Passion Joy
3:53
Speaker 1: bonded through shared experiences of trauma from their church, not
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Speaker 1: only through the abuse that they suffered, but also through
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Speaker 1: the trauma of purity culture from their church. In hefect impost,
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Speaker 1: Pash wrote, Emily and I would create a joint blogging
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Speaker 1: endeavor called the Purity Culture Rehab Project, in which we
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Speaker 1: documented our own baby steps out of the physical and
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Speaker 1: emotional abuse of purity culture. That theology of abstinence that
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Speaker 1: singles out women and slutshames everyone who engages in any
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Speaker 1: kind of sexual activity outside of marriage. Purity culture is
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Speaker 1: the religious antecedent to rape culture, as it lays the
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Speaker 1: bulk of the responsibility for maintaining the sexual purity of
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Speaker 1: both genders on women's attire and behavior. And she went
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Speaker 1: on explaining over a bottle of cheap gas station wine.
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Speaker 1: We planned out the things we would dare ourselves to do,
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Speaker 1: our first kisses, asking someone on a date, standing up
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Speaker 1: to a cat collar instead of walking faster and pretending
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Speaker 1: not to hear. As the project took off, the churches
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Speaker 1: we participated in continued to shame us for our appearances
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Speaker 1: are presumed sexual activity and our inability to conform to
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Speaker 1: the scriptural ideal of the woman with a gentle and
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Speaker 1: quiet spirit.
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Speaker 2: I think I've told you this story before, about the
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Speaker 2: fact that because I was not the gentle and quiet spirit,
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Speaker 2: I always felt so outside and felt unworthy to be loved,
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Speaker 2: and when I say loved being in a relationship or
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Speaker 2: being liked by the men in that culture, because I
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Speaker 2: could not be the beautiful, small, fatite, quiet woman. And
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Speaker 2: this one hit the nail on the head and I
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Speaker 2: was like, yeah, that was exactly like, these words do
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Speaker 2: not match me, so I cannot be a part of this.
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Speaker 2: Of course, this was not something that was welcomed with
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Speaker 2: open arms. In fact, Posh spoke of feeling like an
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Speaker 2: outsider in her time at the church in college, and
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Speaker 2: as she Enjoy bonded over their shared experience with the church,
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Speaker 2: they continued in their own healing journey, and soon after
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Speaker 2: allegations came out through the Maytooth movement, Posh and Joy
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Speaker 2: wanted to share their own experiences to the hashtag church too.
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Speaker 2: Posh wrote in that same article recently as allegations after
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Speaker 2: allegation service against men in Washington and Hollywood, and Lee
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Speaker 2: and I realized it was time to create space for
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Speaker 2: survivors within the evangelical church and for those who left
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Speaker 2: its walls. So we launched hashtag church too, a Twitter
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Speaker 2: hashtag that quickly drew out widespread stories of sexual abuse
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Speaker 2: and harassment. It was a reckoning for me. It was
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Speaker 2: also the culmination of years speaking out against and unlearning
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Speaker 2: the strictures of evangelical purity culture, and she continues to
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Speaker 2: explain how hashtag me too inspired her to tell her story.
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Speaker 2: She writes, the hashtag gave me the courage to come
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Speaker 2: forward with my own story of rape. Although it did
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Speaker 2: not occur specifically within the church, the power of evangelical
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Speaker 2: purity culture were such that when I staggered home, still
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Speaker 2: half muted from the effects of a date rape drug
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Speaker 2: i'd adjusted, I was prepared to sweep the whole thing
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Speaker 2: under the rug, blinded by guilt and shame. Surely I
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Speaker 2: had brought this on myself. Surely it was my fault.
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Speaker 1: And she goes on. After I offered up the hashtag
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Speaker 1: on November twentieth, I went to sleep expecting to see
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Speaker 1: a few stories shared by Internet friends and mutuals and
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Speaker 1: my Twitter mentions. The following day, I awoke to dozens
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Speaker 1: of notifications from people I didn't know or follow. By
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Speaker 1: the end of those first twenty four hours, the hashtag
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Speaker 1: had exploded. Within forty eight hours, people all over the
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Speaker 1: world were sharing their stories of pain and abuse in
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Speaker 1: the church, and every day, without fail, some white male
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Speaker 1: pastor has attempted to discredit the movement and the survivors
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Speaker 1: who had bound their voice within it, and many started
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Speaker 1: to share their stories. Hear some examples. Vox wrote about
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Speaker 1: a woman who revealed her rape during a youth group
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Speaker 1: prayer section, only to be asked if she'd repented, Another
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Speaker 1: who fled an abusive marriage amoly to be told by
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Speaker 1: her pastor to return home and submit to her husband's will.
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Speaker 1: Another who as a child was told to cover up
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Speaker 1: after a male classmate had been caught masturbating while looking
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Speaker 1: at her. Another who felt compelled to get an abortion
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Speaker 1: lest her church community find out she'd been, in their eyes, unpure.
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Speaker 2: And the movement has continued since, with many more stories
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Speaker 2: coming out, and almost all the denominations have been accused
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Speaker 2: of such abuses, including the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest
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Speaker 2: Protestant denomination in the US, which has around thirteen point
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Speaker 2: seven million members as of twenty twenty two. Here's an
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Speaker 2: interesting fact, though, the numbers of the SPC members have
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Speaker 2: steadily declined, and by twenty twenty two, over one million
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Speaker 2: previous members left the church from the year before Yeah,
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Speaker 2: and with movements like hashtag church too, many of those
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Speaker 2: still as members are asking questions within the churches. In
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Speaker 2: the past years, people have been speaking out about the
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Speaker 2: abuse and harassment within the church, specifically Southern Baptist, but
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Speaker 2: it isn't surprising to learn that many of the leaders
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Speaker 2: of that church have tried to hide and suppress the issues,
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Speaker 2: and a report in The Washington Post, writer Joshua Peace
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Speaker 2: writes about the churches and the allegations. He says, quote
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Speaker 2: likely in any community of fate, there's also sin, often silence,
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Speaker 2: ignored and denied, and it is more common than many
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Speaker 2: want to believe. It is often led to failures by
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Speaker 2: evangelicals to report sexual abuse, respond properly to victims, or
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Speaker 2: changing the institutional cultures that enable the abuse in the
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Speaker 2: first place.
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Speaker 1: And the article continues. Without a centralized theological body, evangelical
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Speaker 1: policies and cultures vary radically, and while some church leaders
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Speaker 1: have worked to prevent abuse and harassment, many have not.
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Speaker 1: The causes are manifold authoritarian leadership, twisted theology, institutional protection,
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Speaker 1: obliviousness about the problem, and perhaps most shocking, a diminishment
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Speaker 1: of the trauma sexual abuse creates especially surprising in a
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Speaker 1: church culture that believes strongly in the sanctity of sex.
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Speaker 1: Sexual abuse is the most underreported thing, both in and
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Speaker 1: outside the church that exist, says Bojs Chavision, a grandson
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Speaker 1: of Billy Graham and a former Florida Assistant state attorney.
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Speaker 1: As a prosecutor, Chavision saw dozens of sexual abuse victims
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Speaker 1: harmed by a church's response to them. In one case,
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Speaker 1: a pastor did not report a sexual offender in his
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Speaker 1: church because the man had repented. The offender was arrested
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Speaker 1: only after he had abused five more children.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you don't know who Billy Graham is, then
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Speaker 2: I know that you're not. You don't know about the
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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist culture because Andy did not know who Billy
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Speaker 2: Graham is. I could be wrong. People can correct me.
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Speaker 2: One of the big first televangelists as we call them.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, he was a grandson, so for him to
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Speaker 2: be a part of this is pretty surprising. So the
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Speaker 2: article goes on to talk about how many have tried
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Speaker 2: to get information in order to solve this problem, but
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Speaker 2: no surprise, data is not easy to collect. As many
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Speaker 2: have noted the lack of reporting or even acknowledging the
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Speaker 2: problem has made it difficult to get accurate, if any,
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Speaker 2: real data. And here's another quote written in that article.
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Speaker 2: The problem in collecting data stems in part from the
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Speaker 2: loose or non existent hierarchy in evangelicalism. Catholic church abusers
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Speaker 2: benefited from an institutional cover up. That same bureaucracy enabled
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Speaker 2: the reporters to document a systemic scandal. In contrast, most
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Speaker 2: evangelical groups prize the autonomy of local congregations, with major
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Speaker 2: institutions like the Southern Baptist Convention having no authority to
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Speaker 2: enforce a standard operating procedure among member churches. This means
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Speaker 2: researchers attempting to study this issue has to comb through
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Speaker 2: publicly available documents. And the article continues with some research
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Speaker 2: that was found. Quote. That's what Wade Mullen, the director
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Speaker 2: of the Master's Divinity Program of Capital Seminary and Graduate School,
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Speaker 2: did as a part of his PhD dissertation. He collected
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Speaker 2: reports of evangelical pastors or ministers charged with the crime
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Speaker 2: in order to understand how evangelical organizations respond to crisis.
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Speaker 2: Over twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen, Mullen found one hundred
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Speaker 2: and ninety two instances of a leader from an influential
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Speaker 2: church or evangelical institution being publicly charged with sexual crimes
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Speaker 2: involving a minor, including rape, molestation, battery, and child pornography.
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Speaker 2: By the way, this data did not include sexual crimes
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Speaker 2: against an adult or crimes committed by someone other than
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Speaker 2: a leader.
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Speaker 1: And in another study that was used in the article
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Speaker 1: specifically with one of the evangelical colleges in the US,
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Speaker 1: they write, the study showed that fifty six percent of
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Speaker 1: the three hundred and eighty one respondents who reported having
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Speaker 1: knowledge of the school's handling of abuse, a group that
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Speaker 1: included current and former students as well as employees, believed
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Speaker 1: that bob Jojes University or BJU, conveyed a quote blaming
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Speaker 1: and disparaging attitude toward victims. Of the one hundred and
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Speaker 1: sixty six people who said they had been victims of
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Speaker 1: sexual abuse before or during their time at BJU have
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Speaker 1: said school officials had actively discouraged them from going to
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Speaker 1: the police. According to one anonymous respondent, after he finally
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Speaker 1: told the police about years of sexual abuse by his grandfather,
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Speaker 1: a BJU official admonished him that quote you tore your
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Speaker 1: family apart and that's your fault. End quote, you love
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Speaker 1: yourself more than you love God. And this type of
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Speaker 1: reaction towards victims is not uncommon through the church leaderships,
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Speaker 1: but the movement has made a difference within the past
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Speaker 1: few years. In twenty nineteen, an investigation was conducted after
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Speaker 1: a victim, CHRISTA. Brown, was able to get the public's
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Speaker 1: attention to the abuses happening within the Baptist Church.
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Speaker 2: Right and just for a little backstory on Brown, Brown
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Speaker 2: was a victim of rape and molestation as a teenager
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Speaker 2: by the hands of the pastor who led her church.
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Speaker 2: After years of abuse, she finally told her music minister
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Speaker 2: after breaking down and said that she was actually having
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Speaker 2: an affair with a much older pastor. Reminder she was
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Speaker 2: a minor being co worced by a leader of her church,
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Speaker 2: and instead of any punishment or any charges, the pastor
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Speaker 2: was transferred to another church or with a better pay
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Speaker 2: and more responsibility over the children's programs, and Brown would
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Speaker 2: remain silent and suffer through her trauma until her adulthood.
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Speaker 2: And though her abuse occurred years earlier, she finally made
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Speaker 2: a report of her abuse to her childhood church and
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Speaker 2: to the officials of the Texas Southern Baptist Leadership, and
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Speaker 2: with a letter they responded to her accusations. According to
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Speaker 2: a Vice article written about Chris Brown, they stated the
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Speaker 2: church quote noted that one person's memories might be materially
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Speaker 2: different from another's, and that Brown may have suffered for
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Speaker 2: reasons quote not attributed to mister Gilmore or the church,
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Speaker 2: and it threatened to seek recourse if she pursued the matter.
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Speaker 2: And actually she apparently has the full letter on her site.
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Speaker 2: Her site is outdated, so you may not be able
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Speaker 2: to find everything. At this time, Brown had become a
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Speaker 2: lawyer herself and began to negotiate with a church outside
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Speaker 2: of the courts, and this is when she discovered not
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Speaker 2: only did her abuse still work with children within a church,
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Speaker 2: but that the Baptist Donal Convention of Texas had a
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Speaker 2: list of offenders who had quote confessed, been convicted of
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Speaker 2: sexual abuse or about whom there was a substantial evidence
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Speaker 2: that the abuse took place.
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Speaker 1: It was in two thousand and six that Brown published
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Speaker 1: an op ed imploring the BGCT to make the list public,
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Speaker 1: and in the article, they say her logic was plain
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Speaker 1: sexual abuse by a trusted religious leader has a sole
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Speaker 1: murdering impact. The way forward was shining a light on
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Speaker 1: the church's darkness, and even though her request wasn't answered,
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Speaker 1: she started her own website known as the Quote Stop
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Speaker 1: Baptist Predator's Website, where she kept her own database of
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Speaker 1: abusers who are named in the public records and media reports.
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Speaker 1: Brown faced a lot of backlash from the SBC from
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Speaker 1: that same article, they write. In two thousand and six,
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Speaker 1: d August Augie Boto wrote to Brown in his capacity
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Speaker 1: as then vice president of Convention Policy, saying that quote
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Speaker 1: continued discourse between us will not be projective or fruitful.
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Speaker 1: The following year, while Brown was advocating for an independent
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Speaker 1: review board to SBC's Bylaws Workgroup, she recounted what it
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Speaker 1: was like to discover that the man she said had
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Speaker 1: molested and raped her as a teen was still working
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Speaker 1: as a Southern Baptist children's minister. One executive committee member
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Speaker 1: turned his back while she's and another one shortled she
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Speaker 1: was the only woman in the room.
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Speaker 2: Of course, for those of us who have been involved
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Speaker 2: in church systems like this, this type of reaction is
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Speaker 2: not surprising. I think I've had many who would just
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Speaker 2: act as surprised or kept quiet when I had my
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Speaker 2: own instances in my own experience, I was told that
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Speaker 2: I read into it, that it didn't happen. I must
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Speaker 2: have imagined it that happens a lot. Of course, with
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Speaker 2: her tireless efforts, many more people came out and told
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Speaker 2: their stories. Different women all of the countries sent their
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Speaker 2: stories to Brown, emailed them and let her know what's
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Speaker 2: going on.
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Speaker 1: After the hashtag me too and hashtag church two movement
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Speaker 1: started with the help of Brown's own work, so many
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Speaker 1: people did come forward, breaking down the barriers that have
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Speaker 1: been keeping women trapped in their trauma and experiences. Women
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Speaker 1: like Jules Woodson and a victim of pastor John Lowe.
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Speaker 1: Woodson was finally able to tell her story. Here's what
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Speaker 1: slave wrote about her experience. Quote. Woodson moved to the
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Speaker 1: Woodlands in Texas when she was five and joined a
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Speaker 1: local Baptist church, Woodlands Parkway. It was part of the
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Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the US
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Speaker 1: and one of the most conservative. When Woodson was a teenager,
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Speaker 1: she was allegedly sexually propositioned by a youth pastor named
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Speaker 1: Andy Savage. Words started getting around the church. Savage admitted
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Speaker 1: he made what he called a mistake and resigned, though
17:26
Speaker 1: he eventually found work at another Southern Baptist church and
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Speaker 1: then a mega church. Woodson finally went public with her
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Speaker 1: story in twenty eighteen, and at his megachurch, Andy Savage
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Speaker 1: apologized to the congregation for what he called a sexual incident.
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Speaker 2: And the victim of Pastor John Lowe had to publicly
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Speaker 2: confront low after he downplayed his offenses in front of
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Speaker 2: the congregation. Here's a bit from an NBC News post
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Speaker 2: written by reporter Jessica Johnson. Shortly after Pastor John Lowe
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Speaker 2: the Second pleaded for his congregations to seek the saving
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Speaker 2: knowledge of Christ, he said he had a confession he
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Speaker 2: wanted to follow a biblical process of confessing, repentance, and forgiveness,
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Speaker 2: which would lead up to him finally admitting that he
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Speaker 2: had committed adultery. He stressed that it was twenty years
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Speaker 2: ago and was with one person, and as a way
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Speaker 2: to hammer home that he was doing the upstanding thing,
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Speaker 2: he said he would not use the Bible to defend,
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Speaker 2: protect and deflect my past sins. He continued, quote, I
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Speaker 2: have no defense. I committed the adultery. To say it plainly,
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Speaker 2: I didn't make a mistake. I need to say that,
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Speaker 2: and you deserve to hear it. He asked the congregation
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Speaker 2: for forgiveness and announced that he was stepping aside from
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Speaker 2: ministry responsibilities and submitting to recommendations from the church board.
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Speaker 2: As Low placed microphone down and stepped off stage, he
18:39
Speaker 2: received a standing ovation, but he had left out key details,
18:43
Speaker 2: and as the applause continued, a woman and her husband
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Speaker 2: stepped up to the pulpit to fill in what these
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Speaker 2: details were. The clapping died down as a woman began.
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Speaker 2: I lived in a prison of lies and shame, lying
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Speaker 2: to protect the Low family, having suicidal thoughts, not realizing
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Speaker 2: what had been truly done to me. I was still
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Speaker 2: be in a prison if my brother had not approached
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Speaker 2: me just two weeks ago with what he had seen
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Speaker 2: as a teenager that bothered him all these years. His
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Speaker 2: pastor in bed with his younger sister a T shirt
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Speaker 2: and underwear on. People knew but were too afraid to
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Speaker 2: come forward, and they have now. The lies and manipulation
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Speaker 2: have to stop. She then addressed Load directly. She was
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Speaker 2: standing nearby at the front pew. She said, I was
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Speaker 2: a prisoner, and you kept me in your prison. I
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Speaker 2: am a prisoner no longer. I was just sixteen when
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Speaker 2: you took my virginity on your office floor. She said.
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Speaker 2: You did things to my teenage body that had never
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Speaker 2: and should had never been done. You are not the victim,
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Speaker 2: and indeed he is not, though he tried to make
19:43
Speaker 2: himself look as if he was. After the woman left
19:45
Speaker 2: the stage with her husband, a man shouted, quote, if
19:48
Speaker 2: you did it, you have to admit it. Low responded,
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Speaker 2: She was sixteen. It was wrong. That's just the way
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Speaker 2: it is. All I can do is ask you to
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Speaker 2: forgive me. I'm doing the biblical process. I'm stepping down.
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Speaker 1: Well. With all the stories and accusations coming out, the
20:17
Speaker 1: SBC have had to rethink their policies. Previously, the SBC's
20:21
Speaker 1: tactic was lacking. As one article from Box writes, quote
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Speaker 1: when it comes to addressing sexual abuse, up until now,
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Speaker 1: they have claimed that because of their church policy, they
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Speaker 1: don't have the authority to track abusers and hold local
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Speaker 1: churches accountable, said Kristen Cobez. Dumis, a professor of history
20:37
Speaker 1: at Calvin University and the author of Jesus and John
20:41
Speaker 1: Wayne how White evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation.
20:46
Speaker 1: Quote But in the report, we found that they had
20:48
Speaker 1: in fact been tracking abusers in their churches and had
20:51
Speaker 1: been maintaining a private database for their own protection. They
20:54
Speaker 1: had not in any way reached out and tried to
20:56
Speaker 1: prosecute those abusers to keep people safe. In the sea
21:00
Speaker 1: nineteen investigation completed by Houston Chronicle, a lot of information
21:04
Speaker 1: was given to the issue within the churches. Here's another
21:07
Speaker 1: quote from that same Slate article. In twenty nineteen, a
21:11
Speaker 1: Houston Chronicle investigation revealed widespread sexual assault within the denomination.
21:16
Speaker 1: One reporter, Robert Downen, uncovered troubling details that prompted the
21:20
Speaker 1: SBC to commission its own internal review, conducted by an
21:24
Speaker 1: independent organization called Guidepost Solutions. The review confirmed a lot
21:29
Speaker 1: of what the Chronicle had already found, and earlier this month,
21:32
Speaker 1: the SBC announced it was being investigated by the Department
21:35
Speaker 1: of Justice. Some survivors, al like Woodson, hope the investigation
21:39
Speaker 1: might lead to crucial changes, but they're unsure whether justice
21:42
Speaker 1: is possible or if substantive reforms will be implemented right.
21:47
Speaker 2: Guidepo Solutions, the independent firm who investigated within the SBC, Yeah,
21:52
Speaker 2: they found a lot. Here's a quote. The probe found
21:55
Speaker 2: that the Southern Baptist Conventions Executive Committee had mishandled abuse
21:59
Speaker 2: claims and stone walled survivors. The investigation was requested by
22:03
Speaker 2: the executive committee after it faced growing pressure for an
22:06
Speaker 2: external probe into abuse allegations. This is according to one
22:09
Speaker 2: of the NBC News articles and according to another one
22:12
Speaker 2: written by NPR. They say an SBC sex abuse task
22:16
Speaker 2: force released a blistering two hundred and eighty eight page
22:19
Speaker 2: report from outside consultants Guidepost Solutions. The firm's seven month
22:24
Speaker 2: independent investigation found disturbing details about how denominational leaders mishandled
22:28
Speaker 2: sex abuse claims and mistreated victims. The report focused specifically
22:33
Speaker 2: on how the SBC's Executive Committee responded to abuse cases,
22:37
Speaker 2: revealing that it had secretly maintained a list of clergy
22:40
Speaker 2: and other church workers accused of abuse.
22:43
Speaker 1: With this report, the SBC soon released a two hundred
22:46
Speaker 1: and five list of names of pastors and other leaders
22:49
Speaker 1: and members of the Baptist churches who had been accused
22:51
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, and as women and victims have been
22:54
Speaker 1: speaking out, causing a massive shift in accountability, structural changes
22:58
Speaker 1: continued to take place within powerful religious organizations like the
23:03
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Convention. Unfortunately, due to years of a power
23:07
Speaker 1: imbalance between leaders and members, women and men, marginalized, and
23:11
Speaker 1: white supremacy, justice is not swift or easy. As another
23:17
Speaker 1: vax article writes, quote Complementarianism's centrality within the SBC led
23:23
Speaker 1: to a heavily patriarchal institution, which Meredith Stone, the executive
23:27
Speaker 1: director of Baptist Women in Ministry, said created an environment
23:31
Speaker 1: in which sexual abuse could happen and be covered up
23:34
Speaker 1: as extensively as the Guidepost report said it was, and
23:37
Speaker 1: as such, she said, simple systemic fixes ultimately won't be
23:41
Speaker 1: enough to reform the SBC. Instead, theological changes will have
23:45
Speaker 1: to be made, and they will be the ones that
23:48
Speaker 1: SBC won't want to make. The underlying systemic issues within
23:52
Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Convention have to do with a theology
23:54
Speaker 1: that said some people are favored by God, some people
23:57
Speaker 1: have more power, and God supports them having that power
24:00
Speaker 1: and exerting it over others. Stone said that in no
24:03
Speaker 1: way diminishes the culpability of individuals and the decisions that
24:07
Speaker 1: they make to act in an abusive way against another person.
24:11
Speaker 1: But I think when they are in an environment that
24:13
Speaker 1: says God supports power over saying God is about love
24:16
Speaker 1: and inclusion, it makes those actions more palatable.
24:20
Speaker 2: Right, this is where we can talk about Christian nationalism
24:22
Speaker 2: because of those excuses right there, and we will, we'll
24:25
Speaker 2: come back to that. It's a lot. This is a lot.
24:30
Speaker 2: And you know what, today several lawsuits have been filed
24:33
Speaker 2: against many of those in leadership. However, this happened in March,
24:38
Speaker 2: the case against Page Patterson, the former president of Southwestern
24:41
Speaker 2: Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, which by the way,
24:44
Speaker 2: I try to go to, and the school was dismissed
24:47
Speaker 2: for failing to prevent sexual abuse on campus. Patterson, by way,
24:51
Speaker 2: also was a former president of the SBC or the
24:53
Speaker 2: Southern Baptist Convention, who he had been fired after mishandling
24:58
Speaker 2: several sexual abuse and harassment cases at the school, and
25:02
Speaker 2: even with evidence that he had wanted to meet one
25:04
Speaker 2: on one with one of the victims to quote break
25:06
Speaker 2: her down, as he put in an email, and being
25:09
Speaker 2: fired from this position. The case was still dismissed and
25:13
Speaker 2: it can't be brought back because she did it with
25:15
Speaker 2: prejudice and with the results like that, as well as
25:19
Speaker 2: the years of covering up mishandling of many cases of rape,
25:23
Speaker 2: assault and abuse, it's hard to have a positive outlook.
25:27
Speaker 2: I got real triggered by this episode, I said before,
25:32
Speaker 2: But seeing women like Krista Brown, Emily Joy, Jules Woodson,
25:36
Speaker 2: Hannah Pash and so many more speak up, protesting conferences
25:40
Speaker 2: and supporting one another, changes happen, and it gives us
25:44
Speaker 2: hope to see more as they keep pushing forward. And
25:48
Speaker 2: we're hoping to see what happens with the DOJ investigation
25:51
Speaker 2: because I don't see any new reports on that, but
25:56
Speaker 2: it has been ongoing. As with the Guidepost Solutions report
26:00
Speaker 2: and the list that was released to the public. Perhaps
26:04
Speaker 2: there could be a big shift in responsibility. And I
26:07
Speaker 2: don't think I explained the Southern Baptist Convention very well,
26:10
Speaker 2: but it has been around since the eighteen hundreds. They
26:15
Speaker 2: have been in the US, and they are evangelical, meaning
26:19
Speaker 2: they do a lot of missionary stuff. I actually did
26:21
Speaker 2: my missionary through the Southern Baptist Convention, which fun of
26:24
Speaker 2: fact I wasn't a member of but I didn't know that,
26:30
Speaker 2: and they gave me money. I'm probably gonna be suit
26:32
Speaker 2: for that. But yeah, there's a lot to be said
26:35
Speaker 2: about how powerful That's convention is if you look behind
26:39
Speaker 2: what they are a part of. They are heavily into politics,
26:42
Speaker 2: even though they would claim they are not, And yeah,
26:46
Speaker 2: they are part, not all, not all. Please understand Baptist people,
26:51
Speaker 2: if you're listening. I know there's so many good people
26:55
Speaker 2: who are horrified, and there are reports and individuals who
26:58
Speaker 2: are horrified by this report they didn't know. But again,
27:02
Speaker 2: this might lend to the fact that things like purity
27:04
Speaker 2: culture really really really make things too black and white
27:07
Speaker 2: instead of seeing the gray when it comes to a
27:09
Speaker 2: sexual assault. And by the way, if they're teenagers and
27:12
Speaker 2: you're an adult, there's no grade to that and it
27:14
Speaker 2: should be really really easy, but yet it's not, which
27:18
Speaker 2: is also why we have a problem with child brides.
27:21
Speaker 2: But many of the states don't and Republicans don't who
27:24
Speaker 2: would consider themselves Southern Baptists or Baptist Protestants, which is
27:29
Speaker 2: an interesting conversation in itself. But here's to hoping that
27:34
Speaker 2: movements like hashtag church Too, which is very very active
27:37
Speaker 2: still on well as Twitter is Dying has been active
27:41
Speaker 2: on Twitter. I actually looked it up the other day.
27:45
Speaker 2: Hopefully we'll be able to see more stories, more accountability
27:48
Speaker 2: through it. Again. The release of the list from the
27:52
Speaker 2: Southern Baptist Convention just happened within this past year, so
27:57
Speaker 2: we'll see how it results. We'll see what the do
28:00
Speaker 2: fines and how they will hold leadership and power in
28:04
Speaker 2: those denominations accountable.
28:08
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, Well, there is so much to
28:14
Speaker 1: uncover and unpack and undue because for most of us,
28:18
Speaker 1: your kids when you are kind of indoctrinated with all
28:21
Speaker 1: of this stuff. So it is a lot. But we
28:24
Speaker 1: will continue with. However many episodes this Vinny series will be, and.
28:30
Speaker 2: Some of them will be shorter like this because it
28:32
Speaker 2: is a gut punch.
28:34
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so there will be some bricks. There will
28:36
Speaker 1: be some bricks in between. But in the meantime, listeners,
28:40
Speaker 1: if you have any resources thoughts about this, you can
28:43
Speaker 1: email us at step Mediu, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
28:46
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast, or
28:49
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Never Told You
28:51
Speaker 1: You can also find us on YouTube, but we also
28:54
Speaker 1: have a book. You can pre order it at stuff
28:56
Speaker 1: you Should Read books dot com. Thanks is always to
29:00
Speaker 1: our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our
29:03
Speaker 1: contributor Joey.
29:04
Speaker 2: Thank you all, yes.
29:06
Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Steffan Never Told You
29:08
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