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Transcript

🛍️ Try Before You Buy: The Ecommerce Growth Hack You’re Probably Ignoring · The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast

• 0:00
  so uh we see a about a 22 increase in conversion rates um
• 0:05
  across the site about a
• 0:06
  34 reduction in customer acquisition costs and about a 41
• 0:10
  increase in net ltv all
• 0:13
  of our metrics are net you know we always talk about trying to
• 0:15
  you cannot take
• 0:16
  gross to the bank um so for us it's always net net conversion
• 0:20
  so ultimately keeping
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: something net ltv like actual net revenue after returns and then customer
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: acquisition costs um actually acquiring that customer with
• 0:29
  Welcome to today's episode of the e-commerce revolution podcast
• 0:32
  where we dive into
• 0:33
  the dynamic world of e-commerce and uncover the tools and
• 0:36
  tactics that empower
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: today's emerging entrepreneurs.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Our podcast is part of our community with the same name.
• 0:43
  The community is geared to providing emerging e-commerce
• 0:46
  entrepreneurs with
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: courses,
• 0:48
  content and coaching to help you all launch and grow successful
• 0:52
  businesses.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Check us out at ecomrevolution.co.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get things started.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to another episode of the e-commerce revolution podcast.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ramin.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Great to have everybody here today.
• 1:08
  And today I'm joined by an entrepreneur who's transforming the
• 1:12
  way we shop online.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ben Davis is the CEO and founder of Try Now,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: the leading try before you buy or TBYB platform for Shopify merchants.
• 1:23
  His company is revolutionizing e-commerce by removing one of
• 1:27
  the biggest barriers
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: to online shopping.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: uncertainty.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: With $24 million in funding from investors,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Try Now is helping brands increase customer confidence,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: boost conversions,
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: and drive higher lifetime value.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Their innovative approach is already powering 247-plus Shopify merchants,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: including Hammett,
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: which my wife absolutely loves,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: and Billy Reid.
• 1:54
  Ben is passionate about customer-centric innovation and today
• 1:58
  we'll dive into how
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: TryNow is bridging the gap between online and offline shopping.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: The world of try before you buy, right?
• 2:06
  The impact of AI and the future of e-commerce and what brands
• 2:10
  can learn by having a
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: relentless focus on customer experience.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 2:16
  Without any further ado,
• 2:17
  please welcome Ben Davis to the e-commerce revolution podcast.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ben, it is wonderful to have you here.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's wonderful to be here.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love this concept.
• 2:29
  I think,
• 2:30
  uh,
• 2:30
  you know,
• 2:30
  I've,
• 2:30
  I've personally experienced it in the world of Amazon.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I, it saved me a lot of, uh, time and headache.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not knowing what I want, right.
• 2:38
  Not knowing what it's going to look like to be able to,
• 2:41
  uh,
• 2:41
  implement that.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 2:43
  Let me make sure,
• 2:44
  first of all,
• 2:44
  that I summed everything,
• 2:46
  all your credentials up correctly.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Anything I missed in there that you'd like to tell us?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: You nailed it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: You nailed what I mean.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: But we are all about getting great products into homes.
• 2:59
  And the conditions in e-commerce as it's been for the past 25,
• 3:04
  30 years have inhibited that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: We've grown accustomed to buying products before we try products online.
• 3:11
  But that's very backwards to how we have been shopping for
• 3:14
  thousands and thousands of years.
• 3:17
  And so we're making commerce a lot more natural for shoppers
• 3:21
  and kind of flow with
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: human psychology.
• 3:24
  So it's all predicated on human psychology and allowing great
• 3:28
  products to have their time to
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: to be experienced by shoppers.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's really important.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And right now, this is built for the Shopify platform.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are there plans to expand beyond that?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Shopify is massive,
• 3:43
  so I'm sure you have enough merchants out there to continue to
• 3:47
  get the word out
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: about the app,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: as the Shopify market just continues to grow,
• 3:52
  we're just focused on being the leaders within the Shopify
• 3:56
  space to continuing to
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: build out the market within Shopify.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we work very closely with our product and engineering team on native
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: functionality directly within Shopify checkout.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So our relationship there is quite solidified.
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  And so we're focused on continuing to build the capabilities
• 4:14
  and functionality
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: within that space.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, whenever you kind of
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: expand across platforms, you dilute something.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that usually results in diluting your product.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And for us, we never allow our product to be diluted.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: We are very,
• 4:30
  very product-led and maniacally focused on solving problems for
• 4:35
  our customers with
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: a product solution.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And as such, we just keep building product depth into our platform.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So a focus on Shopify allows us to do it.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as their platform grows, as do we.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I love it.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:52
  they continue to innovate as a platform and obviously make app
• 4:57
  developers and,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: technology around them even better,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: too.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's wonderful.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Ben, take me back to the origin story.
• 5:05
  We chatted a little bit before we had this recording about what
• 5:09
  was that moment
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: where you realized this was,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: this was Try Now.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: You were going to launch this, and this was a much-needed
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: application out there.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:20
  So I was hired by David Sachs and his wife,
• 5:23
  Jacqueline Sachs,
• 5:24
  to start a brand for them.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it was an apparel company.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And David was one of the founders of co-founding COO of PayPal,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: founder of Yammer,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Kraft Ventures,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: the All In Podcast,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: many have listened to.
• 5:37
  And in the process of launching the business,
• 5:42
  I wanted to offer a try before you buy program.
• 5:44
  We have this incredible fabric and stitching and quality of
• 5:49
  construction of the garment.
• 5:50
  There's more premium priced kids wear,
• 5:55
  baby wear,
• 5:55
  and lounge wear for moms.
• 5:59
  And when we shared those products with friends and family and
• 6:03
  they saw it and they
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: felt it and they can understand the quality,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: they immediately understood it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Online, you just can't experience it through a browser window.
• 6:13
  And so we were thinking about ways to get our products into the
• 6:19
  hands of shoppers more easily.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: How did we reduce friction?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So things like pop-up shops and events and retail.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're all options.
• 6:29
  And so obviously brick and mortar and having a hundred store
• 6:33
  footprint would accomplish that.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Very expensive, very difficult to do.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so what's a more capital efficient way?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so as we just kind of thought about the problem space,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: boiled it down to first principles,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: we said,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: isn't the problem that shoppers are buying products sight unseen?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as you mentioned in the intro, it's all around uncertainty.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so something that we were thinking about, how do we reduce friction?
• 6:58
  Then all of a sudden we get a bill from the photographer and
• 7:01
  the photographer had a
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: phenomenal photographer,
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  SPEAKER_00: very fat bill.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we said, wow, this is a lot of money.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I called him up and said, just like, talk to me about photography.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, well, you know, when you have fabric this way,
• 7:14
  this great it's really hard to elevate that and good
• 7:19
  photography can do that and he
• 7:21
  was right the pictures are phenomenal and you can really tell
• 7:25
  how the fabric is
• 7:26
  differentiated but it's still not quite enough and so we put up
• 7:31
  two landing pages a
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  try before you buy landing page and a normal buy now landing
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  page and the try
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: before you buy page and ads converted 300 better
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when we saw the impact,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: we should go all in on this,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: but there was no software that existed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Try Now was born out of that,
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: out of a need for ourselves,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: called five different brands,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: four other brands said,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: we'd like to use it.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's something here.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so we expanded.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Business started pretty predominantly in apparel,
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  largely because kind of the concept of converting the living
• 8:03
  room to the fitting
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: room just really resonates,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: makes a lot of sense.
• 8:06
  Now the business is about 60% non-apparel,
• 8:10
  beauty being one of our biggest verticals.
• 8:12
  So we work across verticals from like filtered shower heads
• 8:15
  like Jolie to apparel
• 8:18
  companies like Elle Wood and True Classic and Billy Reid to
• 8:24
  beauty brands like Lord
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Geller,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Cover FX,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: AS Beauty,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Alley Oop,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yensa and others.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that is discretionary should be tried.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how we've been shopping online for years.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's how we've been shopping offline forever.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of a sudden we flipped the model.
• 8:44
  But back in 1995,
• 8:46
  I think that was the first e-commerce transaction,
• 8:48
  1995.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: 2000, obviously it became much more pronounced.
• 8:53
  We didn't have the ability to separate an authorization from a
• 8:56
  payment capture.
• 8:57
  We didn't have shipment tracking APIs to know when that package
• 9:00
  was delivered.
• 9:01
  We didn't have returns infrastructure to know when that item
• 9:05
  was returned and accepted.
• 9:06
  We didn't have 3PLs that were sophisticated enough to put
• 9:09
  returns back into stock
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: within 24 to 72 hours.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: none of that kind of plumbing and infrastructure existed.
• 9:17
  Now that it does,
• 9:18
  it's time to rethink the whole kind of payment mechanism that's
• 9:21
  on top.
• 9:22
  And if you walked into a store and you wanted to try that polo
• 9:25
  you're wearing,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: maybe in two sizes,
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: a couple pairs of pants,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: maybe that hat,
• 9:29
  I said,
• 9:30
  hey,
• 9:30
  Ramin,
• 9:30
  before you try this on,
• 9:31
  just give me your credit card.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'll charge it for $372.33.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't like it, go to the front.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: You'll get a refund.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: It'll hit your statement in seven business days.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: You'd say, Ben, you're crazy.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to pay for this.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd be right.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: E-commerce should flip.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: just tell me about the,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: are there any fears,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: when you talk to merchants about,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: my return rates are going to be,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: crazy,
• 9:56
  and I'm going to have to deal with all the shipping and or is
• 9:58
  the infrastructure
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: really in place,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: as you said that,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: we don't need to even worry about that?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so definitely.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it particularly depends on the category.
• 10:07
  So for higher return rate categories like apparel,
• 10:10
  number one objection,
• 10:11
  number one concern.
• 10:13
  For lower return rate categories like cosmetics,
• 10:17
  less of a concern,
• 10:19
  although still a concern.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: There are a few things that we have in place.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first piece is that more trying means more buying.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so the number one thing positively correlated with LTV,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: net revenue per customer,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: is first purchase order size.
• 10:35
  So the more products we can get into that shopper's home on
• 10:37
  that first order,
• 10:39
  the more they're going to keep and the more frequently they're
• 10:41
  going to come back.
• 10:43
  The number one inhibitor in getting more products into that
• 10:46
  shopper's house,
• 10:46
  however,
• 10:47
  is paying.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: in the face of uncertainty.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you can keep the cart value due to day zero dollars,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: amount of caps,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it is,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: 300,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: 400,
• 10:59
  200 bucks,
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: you get more products into your home.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that really activates that customer.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So now I see,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: you don't only sell t-shirts,
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: but you also sell button downs and you also sell pants and you also sell
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: sweatshirts.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was able to try, you know, broader capsule.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or in the case of color cosmetics,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to try a few different shades and,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: maybe some other products that maybe I wouldn't have otherwise tried.
• 11:20
  And so the first thing is creating the conditions to try more
• 11:23
  from that brand,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: experience more from that brand,
• 11:25
  ultimately resulting in stronger unit economics because the
• 11:29
  incremental revenue
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: pays for those incremental returns.
• 11:33
  Now,
• 11:33
  on the returns cost side,
• 11:36
  we have a feature called the buy zero restocking fee.
• 11:40
  And this is,
• 11:41
  we can kind of talk about our general philosophy on restocking
• 11:45
  fees.
• 11:45
  But the buy zero restocking fee is assessed only if a shopper
• 11:48
  keeps nothing.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: But if a shopper keeps something, returns are free.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the shopper messaging is something like,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ramin,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: keep something,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: returns are free.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Keep nothing, just a $15 fee.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: For lower AOV businesses, it may be a $10 fee.
• 12:02
  For higher AOV businesses,
• 12:04
  like Christie Dawn is one of the brands we work with.
• 12:09
  $300,
• 12:09
  $50 to $400,
• 12:10
  $500 AOV,
• 12:11
  they may have a $20,
• 12:12
  $25 buy-zero restocking fee.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it does two things.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: One, it covers the cost of a buy-zero.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if a shopper returns everything,
• 12:21
  that fee is assessed and it covers the cost of the shipping and
• 12:24
  the restocking fees
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: at the warehouse,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: so the brand is net neutral.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: But the second thing, and arguably even more powerful, is that
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: the shopper is now making decisions to actively avoid that fee.
• 12:35
  So they're constructing a cart that they are sure that they're
• 12:38
  going to find something to love.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of just trying one item,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: which is obviously not likely to find something to love,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: but try that one item,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: maybe an exercise,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: maybe try a few different styles,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: a few different top,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: a bottom,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: or
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: lip gloss,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: color cosmetics,
• 12:56
  a moisturizer or a broader assortment that you could be sure
• 13:01
  that you find
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: something to love.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And now the merchant and the shopper have aligned incentives.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Merchant want the shopper to find something to love.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: The shopper does too.
• 13:10
  And that's a really powerful lever to control costs and address
• 13:14
  the very important
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: reality of return costs and increased shipping costs.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a degree in psychology?
• 13:20
  Because I feel like you guys have really like looked at the
• 13:22
  psychological.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: this is you know,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: you're leveraging everything in that even before the transaction happens.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds I mean,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: as you're describing that,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm already thinking,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would absolutely do that.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would avoid I would definitely build my cart.
• 13:36
  to know that there's at least one thing in there that I want to
• 13:39
  hold on to.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: you may be the first person who have ever asked me that,
• 13:43
  but my parents would be very proud because I actually have a
• 13:45
  degree in finance and
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: accounting,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: which is arguably useless,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: but my parents are psychoanalysts.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess we live at the cross-section of psychology and finance.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about the data.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: You guys must track a lot of data from the merchants that you work with.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned net LTV,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: lifetime value,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: conversion rates,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: what are you seeing the minute,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: some merchant installs the application and it's,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: incorporated into the shopping experience?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: What are you seeing in terms of those metrics?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: How quickly are they rising?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: so we see about a 22% increase in conversion rates across the site,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: about a 34% reduction in customer acquisition costs,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: and about a 41% increase in net LTV.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: All of our metrics are net.
• 14:40
  You know,
• 14:40
  we always talk about trying to you cannot take gross to the
• 14:43
  bank.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for us, it's always net net conversion.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So ultimately keeping something net LTV,
• 14:49
  like actual net revenue after returns and then customer
• 14:52
  acquisition costs,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: actually acquiring that customer where they keep something.
• 14:55
  You know,
• 14:57
  you talked about psychology in the in the in the earlier
• 15:00
  earlier question.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And all of e-commerce is, there's a lot of psychology in e-commerce.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Take free shipping thresholds, you know, great psychology.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really more on like kind of aligned incentives.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Performance marketers will lean very heavily into psychology.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you'll see, and oftentimes not brand enhancing psychology.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll see banners on the site that says like,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: this deal is going fast,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: like get it in for four minutes and 59 seconds,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: 58 seconds,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: 57 seconds.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually very effective.
• 15:38
  So there's a lot of levers like that,
• 15:40
  bundling,
• 15:41
  free gifts,
• 15:42
  things like that,
• 15:43
  that help
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: address kind of human psychology to convert that purchase.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, our perspective is that's not bad.
• 15:52
  Tickers and expiring discounts and other strategies and tactics
• 15:59
  like that.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's really a tactic.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a strategy.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so for us, we're focused on customer centric psychology.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: not trying to game that system.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because we find that when you focus on gaming the system,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: there's not durability to that strategy.
• 16:16
  It may last for a month or six months or a year until everyone
• 16:21
  starts doing it.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then you need to find the next hack.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But for us, we focus on things that will never change.
• 16:29
  No one's going to ever say,
• 16:30
  hey,
• 16:31
  I really prefer to buy that product before I try that product.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: or things along those lines.
• 16:38
  So us,
• 16:39
  we're focused on things that will never change with a shopper
• 16:44
  for 100,
• 16:47
  200,
• 16:47
  300 years.
• 16:47
  So that try now and try before you buy as a concept is here to
• 16:52
  stay,
• 16:52
  here forever.
• 16:54
  yeah no that that's it's it's brilliant what i mean you
• 16:57
  mentioned um you know that
• 16:59
  cosmetics uh is a vertical that uh you know is starting to take
• 17:03
  off and really a
• 17:04
  lot of this all started with fashion fashion was you know the
• 17:07
  you know the the
• 17:07
  beginning of this what what verticals other verticals out there
• 17:10
  do you see that
• 17:11
  should be using it that maybe haven't necessarily embraced it
• 17:14
  you've had some
• 17:15
  conversations but you know they're not seeing it yet as
• 17:18
  something in there but you
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: would love them to
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So here's a new vertical that is taking off for us.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: It is anything in the razor, razor blade business model concept.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So for the product to work, it needs a recurring subscription.
• 17:35
  Now to acquire a customer on a recurring subscription is
• 17:39
  sometimes challenging.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of shoppers are adverse to subscriptions.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has had a bad experience with subscriptions,
• 17:48
  having a hard time canceling and some dark patterns and things
• 17:52
  along those lines,
• 17:52
  which we are very much against it right now because it is
• 17:56
  vehemently anti-customer
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: centric and we are vehemently customer centric.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: But take Joe Lee as an example.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Joe Lee is a filtered shower head company.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Ryan Babinzine, the CEO there, has built this whole market.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And talk about a concept,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: a business model that is like right in front of your nose,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: but no one really thought about it in a broader way,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: which is that we filter the shower that goes into our body that we drink,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: but we don't filter the shower that goes on our body.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many chemicals that's in the water.
• 18:32
  And we spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on skin serums
• 18:36
  and moisturizers and
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: all this product.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: But meanwhile, we're putting pollutants on our face.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this is like step zero for your skincare routine.
• 18:45
  He took a kind of concept around filtering water and brought it
• 18:48
  to beauty in a very
• 18:50
  like fundamental first principles way and communicated that in
• 18:55
  a brilliant,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: sharp way.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: message.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And their big objection is efficacy.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Will this product work for me?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I feel the impact on my skin and my hair.
• 19:08
  And when Ryan and I started working together,
• 19:12
  he said,
• 19:12
  we are confident that they will.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: They just need to try it.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're bringing their shoppers that come onto their site.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're embedding TryNow behind their subscription offering.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 19:23
  typically the lever to get a shopper to subscribe is subscribe
• 19:27
  and save,
• 19:28
  right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you subscribe, you get some savings.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's great, but it becomes a race to the bottom.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: To get more people to subscribe, you have to have a deeper discount.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And as you have a deeper discount,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: you have lower margins,
• 19:39
  which means you need to make more money up on that filter three
• 19:43
  months later or six
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: months later,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: nine months later.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes a challenging model if you're using discounts to do it.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Julie never had those issues.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: They just kept growing up into the right very quickly.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: But they use TryNow to drive an even higher subscription attach rate,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: seeing about a 20% improvement in subscription attach rates.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because by embedding TryNow behind the subscription offering,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: the one-time purchase offer becomes that much less compelling.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they only, sorry, they only attach it to the subscription.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was the only way you could do that.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Smart.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so then...
• 20:18
  We increase the numerator,
• 20:20
  LTV,
• 20:21
  and we decrease the denominator,
• 20:23
  customer acquisition costs.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so to be able to pull both LTV up and CAC down at the exact same time
• 20:30
  immediately after implementation creates like a step function
• 20:34
  change for any
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: business that's selling in that space.
• 20:37
  So that would be kind of what I think will become a very hot
• 20:41
  space in 6 to 12
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: months from now for us.
• 20:44
  But currently,
• 20:45
  you can count the number of brands that are doing it on one
• 20:47
  hand.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's interesting.
• 20:50
  I mean,
• 20:50
  I remember,
• 20:51
  you know,
• 20:52
  hearing about Jolie,
• 20:53
  you know,
• 20:53
  a while back and taking a look.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think they had implemented at that point.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, the first question in my head was, does it work?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: that's the uncertainty,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: that we're talking about that really just gets,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: completely evaporates with this.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how could you not be?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there are no questions.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's just nothing, there's no objection at that point.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: You just try it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: As long as,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:18
  as long as you have those psychological elements in place where
• 21:21
  the consumer,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: feels good about,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: this is not going to cost me,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: anything in returns or there's not going to be an issue and,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think everybody wins in this scenario.
• 21:33
  Yeah,
• 21:34
  and you know,
• 21:35
  if the Jolie product didn't work,
• 21:38
  then TryNow wouldn't work for them,
• 21:39
  right?
• 21:40
  And that's kind of the beauty of our model is that Jolie
• 21:43
  product does work and
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: therefore TryNow works really well.
• 21:45
  and the return rates are not increased by Try Now because the
• 21:48
  product just works.
• 21:50
  And so we kind of often joke internally at Try Now that we
• 21:53
  accelerate the growth of
• 21:54
  a business selling a great product and we accelerate the demise
• 21:57
  of a business
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: selling a bad product.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now the reality is not really true.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: We also accelerate the growth of a business selling a bad product.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that the results are not as profound.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: But that's like our whole ethos.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you've got a great product, like we help
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: get it into your homes.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's self-selecting.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Brands that are confident in their product work with TryNow.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so we tend to have a lot of,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: really strong,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: unique,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: novel,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: great products on our platform.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So let's roll and let's talk real quickly about, you know, AI.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how much...
• 22:31
  How much is AI playing a role in the technology side,
• 22:36
  figuring out elements?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I may just let you speak to the fact of it.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Are you implementing?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: You must be implementing some levels of AI into this.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, first thing is,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone talks about AI right now, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you go on LinkedIn, your newsfeed is filled with AI.
• 22:54
  AI stories,
• 22:56
  AI spam,
• 22:57
  AI use cases,
• 22:58
  some that are valuable,
• 22:59
  some that are not.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think if there was a checkbox on LinkedIn that could allow me to remove
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: AI-oriented information,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Post, I probably would check it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: However,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I try now,
• 23:11
  like the first thing is every single person on our team is
• 23:14
  using AI throughout the
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: day,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: not even daily,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: like throughout the day,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: constantly throughout the day.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something that we preach.
• 23:22
  At the end of the day,
• 23:22
  like the differentiation between any team is their people.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's how their people leverage AI to be more effective,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: leverage anything to be more effective.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: We hire relentlessly resourceful people at TryNow,
• 23:37
  and relentlessly resourceful people are definitely using the
• 23:40
  latest and greatest
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: tools,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: and AI is that.
• 23:44
  So whether you're on the commercial team at TryNow or you're an
• 23:46
  engineer at TryNow,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: you're using AI to build more product,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: to service more customers more effectively,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: more efficiently with AI.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like the first piece.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: The second area is what parts of our stack is deterministic software more
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: effective,
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: where there's just kind of one path.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to make sure that we achieve that path in a reliable,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: dependable way and deterministic rules-based software is best.
• 24:19
  There's other areas of our business where it is much more ripe
• 24:24
  for AI-oriented opportunities.
• 24:27
  And currently,
• 24:29
  when a brand implements Try Now,
• 24:31
  they add a second button to the product page.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: They'll maybe add some marketing on their homepage.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: They'll add a collection page and some landing pages.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And those are static.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the results are really effective.
• 24:44
  Now,
• 24:44
  when we have brands that market Try Now more strategically,
• 24:49
  they see outsized impact.
• 24:53
  Higher number of new customer acquisitions,
• 24:55
  reduction in customer acquisition costs.
• 24:58
  How to market that effectively and how to serve the try now
• 25:02
  offer to the right
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: shopper at the right time.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: is difficult.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's a huge opportunity for catalyzing growth for brands.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're definitely,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: we can't kind of release much at the moment,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: but we're definitely focused on how AI can drive customer value.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: But for us, I think you see a lot of software companies
• 25:28
  that are venture-backed that are focusing on raising the next
• 25:32
  round of funding.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is that whether you like it or not,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to raise the next round of funding at a healthy valuation,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: you need to have an AI story.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Try now.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: We'll never optimize around doing that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not how we operate.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: What we will focus on is
• 25:50
  building product that drives an insane amount of merchant value
• 25:54
  and will take a
• 25:55
  very small percentage of the value that we create because
• 25:57
  that's just kind of how
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: we roll.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so if AI can help us do that and amplify the value,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: then we will absolutely lean very heavily into that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Not to raise another round of funding, but to deliver merchant value.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about the implementation just a little bit more.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And specifically around the marketing,
• 26:21
  you mentioned that the brands that actually put the attention
• 26:23
  into marketing –
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: try, you know, the, the model, uh, you know, succeed.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: How do you,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: in that implementation process,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: ensure that they,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: they utilize,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: you provide them with marketing,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hey,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: this is how this brand is doing it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or here's, here's some assets that you can use on your site.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you get that in front of them?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So step one, we have a bit of a phase rollout.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: So phase one of that program is we'll add the PDP component.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So a second button,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: or if you're a subscription company,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: we'll embed that behind your radio inputs and your subscription offering.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: uh, we'll add, we'll create a collection page or a landing page.
• 26:58
  Um,
• 26:58
  we'll link that in the navigation and we'll use a feature that
• 27:02
  we called try links.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's,
• 27:04
  That TryLink feature allows us to track clicks and the
• 27:08
  conversion funnel to
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: understand how are those pages converting.
• 27:12
  The goal is for those pages to be your highest converting pages
• 27:15
  by a very high margin.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So take Elwood as an example.
• 27:19
  The TryNow collection page is two times higher converting than
• 27:25
  any other collection
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: page in their navigation.
• 27:28
  It gave them a lot of confidence to lean in more heavily into
• 27:31
  the program around marketing.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: So in phase one,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: about 30 to 45 days,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: a brand will go live,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: gather some order volume will be about,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: anywhere from seven and a half to 12 and a half,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: maybe 15% of the business percentage of orders.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: they'll wait 30 days or so,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: allow returns to come through,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: make sure that their unit economics are really strong and healthy.
• 27:56
  Once they see that data and they see that TryNow customers
• 27:59
  become more profitable
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: to their brand compared to BuyNow customers,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: they then lean into marketing because,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: if we're not pushing them through the TryNow funnel,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: we're leaving money on the table.
• 28:08
  And so then when they see higher per customer and per order
• 28:12
  profit on those TryNow
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: orders,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: plus the CPA coming down,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: it just becomes much more profound.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: But we recommend that brands wait,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: gather the data so that they feel confident,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: then they lean into marketing.
• 28:28
  And then when they lean into marketing,
• 28:29
  we help coach them through different approaches.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Typically start with email and SMS.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So anywhere where new customer acquisition is a kind of core focus,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: so email welcome flows,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: browser abandonment,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: card abandonment campaigns,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: is really powerful in addition to paid ads.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then we'll also do a discount transition audit for our brands.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll look at where do discounts live within the flow.
• 28:55
  So email welcome flows,
• 28:57
  card abandonment is another example,
• 29:00
  and anywhere else where
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: 10%, 15%, 20% offer is used to convert.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because that cart value is $0,
• 29:08
  shoppers use those discount codes less frequently because
• 29:11
  they're less price
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: sensitive.
• 29:13
  So if we can convert them with a try before you buy offer at
• 29:16
  full price first,
• 29:17
  then we can lean on discounts further down in the flow so that
• 29:21
  we're being a little
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: bit more surgical and targeted with when and how we use those discounts.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: honestly,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: if as people are listening to this,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: speaks volumes to the psychological approach to e-commerce and,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how it should be.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're just talking how do we get people to buy more,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: feel comfortable in the shopping experience.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see it going?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do you,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: without giving us your playbook for the next five years,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: but where do you see TryNow going and where do you see the market?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: You want to see dozens and dozens of other verticals in place.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like?
• 30:06
  anything other than paper towels and toilet paper should be
• 30:10
  tried before it's bought.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it's discretionary,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: if you have uncertainty around the product,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: it should be tried before it's bought.
• 30:17
  Um,
• 30:18
  well,
• 30:18
  you don't think,
• 30:18
  you don't think toilet paper is a uncertain moment.
• 30:21
  I have,
• 30:22
  I bought,
• 30:22
  like I went deep on a discount for paper towels on Amazon
• 30:25
  basics.
• 30:26
  And it was a huge mistake because I have tons of rolls of just
• 30:30
  complete garbage,
• 30:32
  uh,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: uh, paper towels that we're just working our way through.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe, maybe paper towels should be tried.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:38
  I feel like,
• 30:39
  you know,
• 30:39
  I mean,
• 30:39
  that's a touching,
• 30:40
  you know,
• 30:40
  situation there too.
• 30:41
  I mean,
• 30:42
  honestly,
• 30:42
  I,
• 30:42
  when I,
• 30:43
  you know,
• 30:43
  as I was preparing for this,
• 30:44
  I thought about that.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't think of anything that didn't,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: couldn't be impacted by trying out.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 30:52
  and I did think toilet paper was one of those things that could
• 30:54
  be impacted,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the areas where it's less impactful or just more challenged,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: is if a product cannot be resold,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: and particularly when those margins are high,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's wasteful for the environment and it is very expensive.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So take mattresses as an example.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can't return, you can't resell mattresses for obvious reasons.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very expensive to ship and return.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think those categories are challenged.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they do orient around try before you buy.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they have stores.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you can go into a store and try mattresses,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: or you go into a Casper store,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: or I went into a Haston store,
• 31:40
  which was probably the greatest in-store experience I've had in
• 31:45
  my entire life.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, why just out of curiosity, why, why was it so amazing?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, quick tangent.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do you know about these mattresses?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about this mattress.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, cause I need a new mattress.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you about it.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can then decide if you want this mattress.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you go into this hasten store, it's a Swedish company.
• 32:04
  You go in with my fiance,
• 32:05
  we walk in,
• 32:07
  um,
• 32:07
  and,
• 32:08
  uh,
• 32:08
  and they greet us and they're so kind.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're the only people in the store and they say, Hey, have a seat.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like try, try out the bed.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so we go try, of course, before we buy.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we're laying down, right?
• 32:21
  Wow,
• 32:21
  this is hands down the most comfortable mattress I have ever
• 32:25
  been in.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it was immediate.
• 32:27
  It was a 10x improvement behind above like any of the nicest
• 32:31
  mattresses I've ever slept on.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, would you mind if we did a little something?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: We said, sure.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so they clicked a button.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: The shades came down in the store.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so now like it became like your bedroom.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And they put this like very expensive duvet over us.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's like two in the afternoon.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're a little tired.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're getting a little sleepy.
• 32:52
  We're like laying down in bed while they're doing some like
• 32:54
  guided meditation.
• 32:56
  And then halfway into that guided meditation,
• 32:58
  I said,
• 32:59
  this is incredible mattress.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: How much is this?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she said it was $75,000.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: So yes,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: it was the best in-store trying experience,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: but we got to sell a lot more software before I buy a $75,000 mattress.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, talk about Tribe.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I always like to look at what's happening in the physical world.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is amazing.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: You could pull something that up.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 33:24
  I will have to go find one of those stores just to experience
• 33:26
  at 2 o'clock in the
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: afternoon what you just experienced.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what do you see?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in physical retail,
• 33:37
  are you always looking and always paying attention to what's
• 33:40
  happening in physical
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: retail to see what can be implemented in the world of Try Now?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, constantly.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's always our comp.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:53
  we just keep going back to brick and mortar because it's been
• 33:56
  tested for thousands of years.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And e-commerce is a big departure from brick and mortar.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a lot of the analogs, like how sites are constructed.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have collections.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have carts.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: In stores, we actually have shopping carts.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: So everything is thought of to align between online and brick and mortar.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that you have in...
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: brick and mortar that you don't have online as a sales associate.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there are good sales associates and there are pushy sales associates.
• 34:30
  How do you become a good sales associate that really helps
• 34:33
  educate you about the
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: brand,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: educates the shopper,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: about which products would be right for them,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: helps curate a collection,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: helps get them another size if they need another size,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: and just make that e-commerce transaction better.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you make it better, then it'll convert better.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: So for us, the input is a better customer experience.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: The output is higher conversion, higher AOV, higher LTV.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: But we always start with the customer experience.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we go into stores, we keep our eyes open.
• 35:04
  And one example of where e-commerce departs from the brick and
• 35:09
  mortar experience
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: is,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: let's say you walked into a brick and mortar store.
• 35:12
  And the first thing that happened is a sales associate pops out
• 35:17
  from the side and
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: says,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ramin,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: give me your email.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you 10%.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, whoa, let me just see the product first.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how most online stores operate.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
• 35:27
  How do we make things a little bit more natural is kind of what
• 35:33
  we're focused on.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:34
  Well,
• 35:34
  there's so many lessons learned in this,
• 35:36
  you know,
• 35:36
  beyond just trying out.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: you're very knowledgeable,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: in the world of e-commerce and,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: the psychological aspects.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: if you were sitting in front of a class,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: teaching a class on e-commerce and digital marketing,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: what piece,
• 35:51
  one piece of advice would you give future online entrepreneurs
• 35:55
  and e-commerce
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurs to help them succeed?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: A piece of advice that was given to me was build a product so great
• 36:05
  that crappy marketing can sell it and build marketing so great
• 36:10
  that it can sell a
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: crappy product,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: but do it in that order.
• 36:14
  And so focus on the product and until the product is great,
• 36:18
  don't fuel it with marketing.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's like it's just a very simple advice, but it is
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: an age-old tripwire for businesses that get out over their skis,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: start scaling a product before it's ready.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we see it with every type of business,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's an e-commerce business,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: it's a software business.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've made that mistake ourselves internally,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: where we think something's ready,
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: we ship it a little bit too soon.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's always like,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: it's always a tension between like,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: you don't want to wait too long,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: but you definitely need to have confidence in that product.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's, I think,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's the number one piece of advice that I'd probably provide.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I wish I was in that class.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a great, you know, it's phenomenal.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: So as we wrap this up,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned if you could check a box on LinkedIn not to get,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: AI related,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: because,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: everybody's talking about it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the team is using it.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're probably using it regularly.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always curious to know,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: what's something that you've done using,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's ChatGPT or Cloud or whichever one you love,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: that really made you stop and say,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: that is amazing what that can do?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let me just talk about my personal Sunday ritual.
• 37:42
  My personal Sunday ritual is I read through our shopper
• 37:46
  feedback every Sunday and
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: allows me to keep a pulse on our program,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: how shoppers are resonating,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: any product issues that we have on our end.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: any issues that our merchants may have,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: what's working really well that we doubled down on,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: what's not working that we help solve and fix.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And as our business scaled,
• 38:05
  I have had a challenging time reading a cross-section across
• 38:09
  our merchants.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then ever since,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: ChatGPT became powerful enough,
• 38:16
  we would just export our shopper feedback and I sit down with
• 38:19
  my French press and
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: boom,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have all of that
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: ready at my fingertips much more quickly.
• 38:27
  So for us,
• 38:28
  we use it in a lot of simple ways to accelerate our own growth
• 38:34
  and learning.
• 38:36
  And we are now starting to experiment more with AI agents to
• 38:42
  streamline internal processes.
• 38:45
  So I think where we're most focused on is we have teams
• 38:48
  internally that we're
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: thinking about product use cases that drive merchant value.
• 38:53
  And those are some pretty exciting opportunities that like I'm
• 38:56
  up at night just
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: thinking about because it's super exciting.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Those are bigger, more future kind of vision ideas.
• 39:03
  And then the second use case is thinking about our business as
• 39:08
  a product itself.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we work on our business as a product?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one way of doing that is automating processes
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: with AI agents that are dedicated for specific tasks.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: So take one very easy example around prepping for a call with a merchant,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: a prospective merchant.
• 39:28
  Things that we want to know about a merchant are what's their
• 39:30
  price point,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: what's their approximate AOV,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: how many products and SKUs do they have,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: what's their returns management software solution,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: do they use loop returns,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: happy,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: redo,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: return logic,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: what's their return policy,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: what's their free shipping threshold.
• 39:44
  All that information would take someone on our team,
• 39:47
  call it 10 to 15 minutes to gather.
• 39:51
  But if an AI agent can look at our calendars for the week and
• 39:56
  then create documents
• 39:58
  for all of that each week and send us an email with each
• 40:02
  document and call prep,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're ready to go.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So things like that allow us to be a lot more efficient.
• 40:08
  And the impact that it has on merchants is that the fewer
• 40:12
  dollars we spend on
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: sales,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: marketing,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: customers,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: like account management,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: the more money we can spend in product and engineering.
• 40:22
  And therefore,
• 40:22
  the better the product we can build,
• 40:24
  more value we can bring.
• 40:25
  So for us,
• 40:26
  we just try to keep funneling as much money in a product and
• 40:28
  engineering as
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: and as little into activities that don't drive merchant value.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you just gave me a perfect idea for my agent, what I needed to do.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was great.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: that does save an incredible amount of time that doesn't need to be,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: a human doesn't need to be doing that.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And those are great examples.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's something I would read on LinkedIn, by the way.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's somebody putting that piece of information out there.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Ben, this has been a masterclass, you know, in just e-commerce.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not just about,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: try before you buy,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: is a brilliant piece of technology.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I guess at the end of the day,
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at it,
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: the simplicity,
• 41:10
  it's what has already happened in the physical world and
• 41:13
  figuring out how to bring
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: and make it better and better and help these brands that may have
• 41:18
  uncertainty around their product where consumers are not sure
• 41:23
  to help them get sure
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: real quickly.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I applaud you for getting this off the ground,
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: building this,
• 41:30
  and thank you for making the time to come on and really educate
• 41:33
  us on TryNow and
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: also e-commerce.
• 41:37
  And just take a moment and let everybody know how they can find
• 41:42
  TryNow and how they
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: can try TryNow,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: how they can actually get it in place.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Let us know.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we go to our site at trynow.com.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: It'll link you to our app on the Shopify app store,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: which you can download and install for free,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: or our team is happy to help you get set up.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: you want to chat about the market,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: just drop me an email,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: ben at trynow.com.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful,
• 42:06
  and we'll put all that information in the show notes and hope
• 42:11
  brands that maybe
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: have never considered using this type of technology do consider it now.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ben, for making the time.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ramin.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate having me on.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 42:24
  All right,
• 42:25
  that brings us to the end of another episode of the e-commerce
• 42:28
  revolution podcast.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to check out past episodes,
• 42:32
  which are all available on demand on YouTube and wherever you
• 42:36
  listen to your
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: podcast.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Ready to join the revolution?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Become an exclusive part of our growing community of emerging e-commerce
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: entrepreneurs at ecomrevolution.co.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, see ya.