Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.289 ‘Accreditation, Employability and the Future of Sports Therapy’ with PD:Approval

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Ep.289 ‘Accreditation, Employability and the Future of Sports Therapy’ with PD:Approval · The STA Clinician Podcast

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You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
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STA Clinician Podcast, formerly known as the Sports Therapy Association Podcast.
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I'm your host, Matt Phillips. And as always, this episode has been recorded
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live on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel and Facebook page at
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eight o'clock UK time on a Tuesday.
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In this episode, entitled Accreditation, Employability, and the Future of Sports Therapy,
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I will very shortly be joined by my special guests, Tom Bell,
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founder and CEO of PD Approval, Yolanda Green, Qualifications Developer Manager
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at PD Approval, and also Gary Benson, Founder of the Sports Therapy Association.
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Before I bring them up, just a very quick reminder about the up-and-coming West
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Midlands Sports Therapy Association Conference, which is happening on June the
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20th in Ludlow in association with Movement Therapy Education.
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Mike Grice of Movement Therapy Education will be my guest next Tuesday,
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June the 16th at 8 o'clock, to talk to you about what he has in store,
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along with one of the speakers, Kieran McMahon.
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But don't wait until then to buy a ticket, of course, because it's going to
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be kind of three days before the event.
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You'll be able to find the link on posts across social media at UKST underscore
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STA, with speakers including the likes of Mike James, Tristan Attenborough,
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Carol Seaborn, and my guest from last week's fantastic podcast episode, Rosie Sexton,
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who last week in the episode entitled the Reflective CPD Journal,
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Neurodivergent Inclusion in Health Settings.
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Appeared with co-author of the journal, Sarah Mihag.
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A great episode, I say it as always. So much information in there.
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An amazing chance with this journal to, whether you're neurodivergent or neuromajority,
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typical, whatever you want to call it,
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it's just a way to pause and reflect and note things down during the week and
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just get out of the fast lane for a little bit, which I think is something a
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lot of clinicians kind of need to force themselves to do. So this will give you the tools to do it.
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So the episode is available, as always, on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube
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channel and all popular podcast apps.
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So do please check it out. Right then, let's go to tonight's episode.
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Accreditation, employability, and the future of sports therapy with special
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guests Tom Bell and Yolanda Green of PD Approval and Gary Benson, founder of the STA.
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How are you? I've got a bit of a fork in my throat this evening.
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And thank you very much for giving up your time. We're just saying off air,
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this is a topic which we've talked about, it seems, way back in the early hundreds,
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with things like accreditation and quality assurance and industry standards.
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Obviously, it's something which is, with Gary as our boss and founder,
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it's obviously something very close to his heart.
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But you've been on our list since you started way back as well.
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So it's really nice to have you here with us and to educate us and to share
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your experiences. So thank you.
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With that in mind, I'll just say hello to people who have joined us live.
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I've got a feeling maybe we're having a bit of a problem with the Facebook feed. I don't know.
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But if you have joined us, then you are welcome to leave comments and ask questions
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directly to our guests. I always say this, if you're a podcast listener,
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thank you so much. Just please use a rating or a review.
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But if you want to take advantage of being able to ask questions directly to
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our guests and just come along on a Tuesday, normally at eight o'clock,
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on the sports therapy association youtube channel and you can ask questions
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directly for example glenn murphy's in the house i could bring his comment up
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on the screen and glenn murphy says good evening all and the typical glenn murphy
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first of the doorway which is lovely,
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um msk educational channel thanks thanks for the plug matt that'll be gricey
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won't you i think say hi to the yolanda and tom for me.
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And other people are coming through the room as well So if you have joined us, take advantage.
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I feel there should be a lot of questions tonight. It's often a hot topic with
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a lot of misinformation or lack of information.
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And our two guests tonight can really, really help you as well as faithful,
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long tool, Gary as well. So take advantage.
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Right. Maybe then we can start with maybe the history of PD approval,
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because I guess that goes back and you can tell us maybe why you started it.
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I imagine there is a space in the industry that you've thought needed filling.
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So yeah, maybe Tom, you're the CEO. Yeah.
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Well, good evening, everybody. I hope you're well. I set up media approval back in 2017 now.
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It's absolutely flown by.
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My previous role was head of accreditation for skills active.
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That was the sector skills council back in 2000s.
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And from then with government changing the landscape, It meant that funding
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was being cut from like that middle tier and to save money,
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it was more like taking away from setting occupational standards,
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which is, I believe, you know, a real key thing within our infrastructure within the UK.
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And from that, then we were supporting
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the Register of Exercise Professionals UK way back in the 2000s.
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Yeah, 2009 to 2017. And that landscape was really like a roller coaster in terms
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of, you know, the governments, the spending, the cuts and things like that.
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And I think we had a really strong, coherent system.
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But over time, it really was sort of chipped away at a lot of the funding and
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time being spent on certain areas that weren't seen as a priority.
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And then different CEOs came in and I guess my role for reps at that point was
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being sold to other organizations and it really felt that my.
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Time had come to be able to support sectors,
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in other areas really and I remember in 2017 I was made redundant and thought well,
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what I've learned over the time from being actually on the shop floor as a personal
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trainer and sport therapist and knowing that actually qualifications have always
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mattered to me and actually where they can take me.
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And I don't know if everybody or some people might remember the record of achievement
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that's in your cupboard.
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Which you might still have. I'm not sure. But that was really the start of where
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you would hold your qualifications and take that to your employer.
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And that employer would then look at those and see, you know,
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what you have really. And that's important.
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And then taking that on to my skill set and looking at,
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introducing when I was made redundant we were then given the opportunity to
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work with reps UK when it was sold and so we supported that through a company
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who had bought that from coach which was coach wise,
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and they they were running that and we had supported them as PD approval um
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as a as a small as a small SME organization to support them with accreditation
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and that's accreditation that wasn't
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off-qual registered.
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And I think that's an important thing as well, like PD approval isn't off-qual
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recognized, but we provide independent external quality assurance to ensure
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that there is a kite mark there of,
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quality that's mapped to,
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those standards.
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And I think those standards will obviously unpick all of that in a minute.
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But it was at that point then And when I had spoken to Gary and Gary and I had
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had a conversation, I think I came to up to Loughborough or somewhere,
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and we're having a conversation.
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Around, you know, Gary equally having that passion of standards and wanting
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to do the best for the industry and really uphold that.
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And I think that's one of the key universal selling points for PD approval and, and I.
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Which is where we want to make a difference. If we can make a difference, then that's great.
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Because by actually working alongside membership organizations,
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we have that connection.
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So we found that this worked with Gary.
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Reps, again, was sold, and we had sort of parted ways with Reps UK at that point,
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and the landscape shifted into Simspa.
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So as you can see, there's now starting to be a market, there's starting to
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be a need, a niche to be created in
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wanting to actually support membership organizations with accreditation.
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And I think that's a really key thing with PD Approval. Our USP is working with
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membership organizations and that communication that we have directly with the
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membership organization actually creates.
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A really nice bond where we can discuss our standards, we can discuss the industry,
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and also we've got employers and industry in our pocket because of Gary.
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And I think with the STA, that's a really unique insight that we have as an
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accrediting body to reflect what Gary wants in the industry as a standard.
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And we honor that by reflecting it through quality assurance,
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standards, and also ensuring that the criteria for new providers and current are upholding those.
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And we check that throughout. So we've done that with PD approval and STA.
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We also do it internationally as an organization through other membership bodies
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such as Reps India, Reps UAE.
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The Sports Therapy Association, Reps Ireland, and the International Confederation
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of Registered Exercise Professionals, IC Reps.
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So we found that that was our niche, and we've been doing it since 2017.
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And it's just growing and growing and growing. And we're now with Reps Pakistan and Reps Lebanon.
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So you can see that we support infrastructure frameworks and quality assurance
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throughout the world, really.
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Fantastic. Thank you very much. A very detailed breakdown. Gary,
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you mentioned a couple of times in that.
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Do you remember these meetings? Do you remember thinking, I need someone like
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Tom Bell? Or was it a conversation that you welcomed?
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I've never met Tom Bell in my life.
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That's it. No, so I think mirroring what Tom said, you have to excuse me,
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we're in the middle of an electrical storm here and it's rain pounding off the
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windows. So excuse me if I'm distracted.
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Yeah, you know, going back to when I entered the industry at,
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a sort of a council level, national council level from 2007,
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2009 at the GCMT as part of another organization, I was always very critical of,
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membership bodies who accredited courses, ran courses, awarded certificates,
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and then represented members.
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And there wasn't any opportunity for any external scrutiny in that process.
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And we've spoke about it on the podcast before, that sometimes if somebody does
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a course, they have an unintentional or unconscious bias towards that course,
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having had nothing to compare it to.
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So you'll see it on every social media platform at the moment,
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just looking for courses and accreditations.
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And people with a commercial interest or a vested interest will say,
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oh, do this course, do that course.
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What I wanted to ensure is, you know, in 2013, when I left one of my advisory
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roles in the industry, a little bit like Tom is, you know, what do I do?
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You know, I've got this certain set of skills representing members and supporting them.
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How do I do that? And that's how the STA was born.
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And, you know, one of the things I was super, super,
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vigilant towards is not to have the same criticisms leveled at me as i'd leveled
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at others so when i met tom in loughborough i can't remember it was a rachel
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france or mike rice thing when when we first met but,
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it's that external scrutiny,
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that i'm passionate about i'm not saying courses are good or bad they every
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course has to have you know an element of external scrutiny and what better to use a third party,
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to do that so that there is no criticism of the professional association you know so,
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yes i would give guidance on the industry standards but i won't get involved
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in policies and procedures and
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tutor qualifications and and verifier qualifications etc that that's what,
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uh what tom does so well that's his area of expertise my own expertise is talking
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to people on the phone and supporting their journey.
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And that's why it works seamlessly. And Tom and I probably speak once a month.
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Just to keep up to date you know if tom hears a rumor on the grapevine he'll
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send it to me and ask for clarification and vice versa and i think that way
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you know we maintain a professional distance and respect,
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but i won't interfere in what pd approval do you know somebody applies for sta
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accreditation they have to do it through our website straight through tom's,
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i don't get involved in the process so that i know that if anybody's achieved
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our accreditation then they have to have met tom's really high standards and
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that's where we're we're both passionate about is is raising and maintaining those standards,
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exactly and then we we also ensure that when we're reviewing those courses we're
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using people that are like yolanda are technical experts.
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And and our other reviewers as well, who are actually on the shop floor as well.
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So they're practitioners, they're tutors, assessors, internal quality assurers,
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and external quality assurers.
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So they've actually had that whole window of experience when it comes to actually
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practice, application,
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and the regulatory part as well in terms of the external quality assurer.
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So you'll not get somebody coming to, you'll not have somebody review your course
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who's not occupationally competent and who hasn't actually done that.
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So, you know, you won't get somebody reviewing a sports therapy course who's
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not sports therapy qualified or a specialist in that area.
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So that for us is equally important.
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Thank you. There's questions I want to ask on what both of you said,
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but we need to bring Yolanda Green in.
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You've been mentioned a few times here, but I'm interested as well how you got
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involved in this. You've got a background in the industry as well,
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and you're now a qualifications developer, manager at PD Approval.
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How did you get involved?
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So I actually started out in the fitness industry in the 90s.
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And the first training that I actually
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did in sports therapy probably now wouldn't be seen as accredited.
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And I developed a long story, but did lots of different jobs within the fitness
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industry and within massage, worked on the cruise ships for a little while.
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And it was when I was working with LA Fitness, which is how I know Mike, he'll be there.
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We were regional trainers for LA Fitness and I was asked to be a representative
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on Sprito as it was then, the Skills Sector Council, looking at CPD.
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So people would put through CPD training, and I was one of the technical evaluators
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who would look at all of the course content, as Tom's described,
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to see whether the course content, whether it be within fitness or within sports
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therapy, was actually current information, met the standards.
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And then more importantly, because everybody, especially now with AI,
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everyone can produce amazing manuals and things, but also to look at who the
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people were developing and supporting and delivering.
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That obviously got took over by Skills Active and I worked again.
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I was representing the employer as LA Fitness at that point.
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And then I just stayed on working as a representative of all the employers I was with.
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And also very much as a representative of people that were actually still doing the job.
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Because the great thing, there was lots of diversity of people on all these
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committees that you sit on, But not many of them are actually still doing that
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job today and haven't seen real clients every day.
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Like, you know, today I've done four classes and seen four clients.
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You know, that is my day that I still do.
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And then obviously when Tom Salpedia Approval invited me to go with him and
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I carried on as an external quality assurer, going out and visiting lots of
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different training centers for qualifications and CPD.
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And then it's massively developed now because we are very interested in working
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for qualifications and training to be portable across,
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international so then I very much got involved in looking at standards and trying
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to see what other countries are
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doing I mean Australia and New Zealand are doing some amazing standards,
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and I'm a massive believer we're all stronger together so we've done a lot of
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work with these other countries saying well,
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can we have a look at your standards and what things have you got that maybe
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we haven't thought about adding
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and also trying to make sure that we're all on the same path and then it means
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that people can be portable across different countries once they have the right
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qualifications and the right training. Exactly.
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I think that's one of our key passions as well is, you know,
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to actually provide a great learner journey through education.
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So our role would be to try and honour that learner journey and give that a
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really good, positive experience.
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And by doing that, we don't just look at the resources.
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Perhaps we offer two things. So at PD Approval, we do have off-the-shelf resources.
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And Yolanda's our technical writer for those.
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So we can provide technical resources from learner manuals through to assessment
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packs, lesson plans, PowerPoints, etc.
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So that's an off-the-shelf aspect, and it's all mapped to the standards.
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But also, if that provider has their own manual assessments,
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etc., then they have that ability to map to the standards through a mapping toolkit.
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And that then allows that flexibility of being able to have their USP and their
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own intellectual property, whilst also if they don't have that,
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they can utilize PD approvals.
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But it's not just about the resources.
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What we're really keen on is actually having a 360 approach.
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I guess, accreditation. And so that would be, yes, the resources,
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but also it's about the tutors, the assessors, the IQAs, and making sure they
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have the faculty qualifications, which are your tutor, assessor,
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and IQA qualifications.
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But it's also ensuring that they have the technical qualifications as well.
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And that's where, you know, you have that standards and the knowledge and requirements
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from that aspect but then on this on on the other side of it,
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we check the systems the processes the policies of the training provider making
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sure they've got appeals procedures complaints procedures
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so that if anything were to happen that learner will have a positive experience
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going through that and we know that there are systems in place
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so that that learner can be best supported. And.
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When they're not able to be supported or there's an issue where the training
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provider needs PD approval or the learner needs PD approval to step in,
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then we can do that as a regulatory body.
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And I think that's the other part to it as well is that accreditation is also
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to be seen as like a support mechanism for the learner and or the training provider because,
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if you go to let's say for example if there's a trainer if there's a learner
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who actually signs up to a qualification or a course or something online,
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and they're not aware of what that logo means or what that's going to provide for them then,
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what are the safeguards what are the what is the actual um support that they can offer And that's why.
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When a training provider gets accredited, we have a code of ethics that they
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have to sign, how they actually carry themselves in the industry,
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what they can do and how they present themselves.
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And that covers anything from misleading learners all the way through to supporting
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them and having that kind of infrastructure in place. So it's not just a quick,
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what I'm trying to get across here is that it's not just a quick kite mark.
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And it's obviously quality assurance isn't the most sexiest topic going.
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It is quite dry. But actually, it's probably, I believe, one of the most important.
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And actually, if we really unpick it further, it actually provides such growth
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for an individual employer and training provider.
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Because if you've got all of that in place with all of those systems and processes,
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everything is going to work smoothly and everyone is actually going to raise
22:21
the benchmark rather than actually have something where somebody goes onto a
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course, they complain, there's no complaints procedure, they can't get to anybody who has that kind of.
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Wherewithal to not support and then ultimately the standards are reduced and then the employer,
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gets this certificate doesn't understand or have any reflection of,
22:44
what that course is about and what they can do and hasn't got the confidence
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in terms of what what they can do so it really has such a big knock-on effect
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on on many different areas and it does come down to that quality assurance.
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And I think also just taking it away from that as well and extending that approval,
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it's actually, it goes further than approval.
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It goes after that as well, which is around maintaining that standard.
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So that's a really important part to maintain the standard once you've got accreditation
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and once you've got approval. So we use two terms. We use endorsement for CPD,
23:25
which are short courses.
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And we use accreditation for your entry qualifications, like the level four and the level five.
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So when you have approval on endorsement or on accreditation, you are monitored.
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The training organization is monitored throughout that accreditation term of
23:47
accreditation for 12 months.
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And then after your 12 months, throughout that, we'll be requesting and sampling
23:57
evidence to check to make sure that, I guess, when no one's looking,
24:02
things are actually in place.
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And if not, we want to support. So yes, we're a regulatory body,
24:10
but at the same time, we want to support to ensure that people can maintain
24:15
and meet those standards.
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So it's not like a stick. It's actually supporting and it's a carrot as well
24:21
to make sure that all of that is in place.
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And more infrastructure is put onto that. I guess it's in layers, really.
24:30
The ultimate, the final part to that is that when that individual,
24:35
that learner has passed their assessment, they've actually met all of the criteria to pass that.
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And that comes down and drips feed into the standards.
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But when they've actually met all of those learning outcomes and they've successfully
24:50
passed, then they will get that certificate.
24:53
And that certificate means a lot.
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There's a lot of weight that's been put in, so much time, energy, and people's,
25:04
support are being put into getting that certificate where it needs to be.
25:08
And it means a lot because ultimately that means that they can get on to the
25:14
Sports Therapy Association.
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They have that access to therefore being able to get support through the STA,
25:23
have industry exposure, get a job, understand that.
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Employers then will see that and have trust within what the STA is about.
25:33
And I think that in itself is a huge plus when they get that certificate.
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But also in terms of looking at the verification, we have a QR code and security
25:47
features on that certificate to avoid fraudulent use.
25:53
So they're able to go onto the website. They can then link straight into our
25:56
database where it will come up with the certificate and make sure that they
26:00
have that person. And so you can hover your phone over the QR code,
26:04
check it, and make sure that it's a bona fide certificate.
26:08
I'm going to ask a question then. We've laid an amazing context,
26:11
and I appreciate the depth and the detail you're giving. And you paint a picture
26:15
like, well, it should always be like this. This is exactly, if it's really learner-centered
26:19
care, the same as it should be patient-centered care, then all this protection
26:22
should be in place for the learner.
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And then even you've talked about the advantages for the employer.
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If the learners are doing well, then that will feed back on the employer and
26:29
their reputation. And everyone's happy.
26:31
But then we've got the reality which i kind of want to dive into now i'm sure
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gary will speak up as well and yolanda,
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and interviews you have as well absolutely yeah no exactly the reality we've
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we've done 289 episodes and sometimes the most frequent things people are complaining about is,
26:47
the courses out there which don't fit the criteria and i'm really interested
26:52
from your perspective whether you think the amount of courses out there we could
26:56
talk about the short courses we could talk about the courses which,
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are just full of stuff which isn't applicable and not going to give people a job.
27:04
Why do they exist and how do they exist?
27:08
It's probably too big enough questions. Why is it such a problem in our industry
27:12
and not everyone's doing what you are offering?
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I'll get it to Gary. There you go. Yeah, I'll have a go at that, Matt. Thanks.
27:19
I want you to imagine that we're living in a parallel universe,
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okay, where we believe everything that's on the internet, okay?
27:26
So we look at a course blurb and it sounds absolutely wonderful and it's got
27:31
little nuggets of information there. It might say off-call regulated,
27:35
and we think, oh, that must be good.
27:37
It might say it's accredited by X, Y, and Z.
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Oh, it must be good because it meets a standard. But in existence,
27:46
there is a training school.
27:49
And the owners of the training school, Bob and Pete, they deliver a course.
27:55
They've advertised it on the internet. It looked wonderful. the blurb is full
27:59
of AI generated images and they've got a 99% pass rate.
28:04
And so you do the course and then Bob will assess the course at the end of it
28:09
and his partner will internally verify it.
28:12
It's an accredited course, but when we do our due diligence and we look on Companies
28:17
House, Bob and his partner own the accrediting company as well.
28:22
So there's no level of external scrutiny. And then Bob and his colleague also
28:26
own a professional association. So they will continue to represent you through your career journey.
28:32
Now, at no point in any of that process has been any external scrutiny.
28:38
And I wish it was happening in a parallel universe, but it's happening time and time again.
28:44
We've got allied health regulated professionals who are coming into this industry.
28:48
I'm not going to name names, but they are delivering short courses without any
28:54
consultation of what the industry standards are.
28:57
I refused a post on the STA yesterday, which is doing the rounds on social media,
29:03
from an osteopath who said,
29:06
are you fed up with you know your current practice you know are you a level
29:10
three therapist who wants to know more come on our course and we will teach
29:14
you all these remedial techniques and so i declined it with feedback saying,
29:19
i'm not saying your course is good or bad what i'm saying is that all of the
29:22
techniques that you're advertising for your course are not within the scope
29:27
of practice of the level three,
29:29
target marketplace therefore they will be working outside of the scope of practice
29:33
and risk having their insurance cancelled.
29:35
I've not heard back from them, but it is on other platforms.
29:40
I police our platform. I don't censor it because I think, you know,
29:44
we should be able to have freedom of speech.
29:47
However, if you're going to advertise something that doesn't meet the national
29:51
minimum wage, if it doesn't meet the industry standards, and if it puts our
29:54
members or the general public at risk, I will not advertise it.
30:01
Yeah, go on, go on, Gander. I just got a thought on that. So I think,
30:06
I mean, I know this is obviously happening in this industry,
30:08
but within the fitness industry, it's very similar.
30:11
Reform of Pilates at the moment is a big thing where we're having the same problems.
30:15
And I think we're in a society now where everybody wants everything instant.
30:20
And, you know, back in the day, we used to have to go on training courses,
30:23
you know, you might have to decamp and go somewhere and even stay overnight accommodation.
30:29
And now everything's become very accessible online and the teacher training
30:33
that I do a lot of people kind of go.
30:35
You know it's going to take me three months how many hours you know everybody
30:38
wants everything done in a weekend and they want it done quickly and cheaply
30:43
and then they want to be in a job and they think there's all these jobs that
30:46
are going to be out there for them,
30:48
and I think that has then led a lot of training providers to,
30:54
meet that demand because they know that people are standing there with their
30:57
money going, I want a course, I want it quickly.
31:00
And I think one of the big things that we do at PD approval and,
31:04
you know, that you guys do STA is,
31:07
trying to protect that person's money and their time, because it's heartbreaking
31:12
when they come on training with us and then say,
31:16
okay, I've spent all this money and I didn't spend loads of time,
31:20
but it was quite painful doing the assessments and everything else to the end
31:23
of it to find out that actually what I have now is a certificate that's worth nothing.
31:27
And now I've got to come to you to actually do my full qualification.
31:32
If only I'd known this first. But I think a lot of it has been led by the fact
31:36
that all industries, unfortunately, everybody wants everything quickly.
31:41
And people don't understand that, you know, it could take you a year or,
31:46
you know, longer or at least three to six months before you actually are going to be qualified.
31:52
We are living in a world where everything's instant.
31:56
I think also, yeah, I think also with that, there are so many qualifications
32:01
out there that link back to,
32:05
awarding organizations. So you've got awarding organizations which are in the
32:10
marketplace and there are many that obviously all of them are off or regulated.
32:16
And I think, is there the engagement with the membership organizations that should be happening?
32:26
For example, at PD approval, we have that direct connection with the STA to
32:35
be able to actually honor,
32:38
for example, how many practicum hours there are to be in order to get onto the STA.
32:46
So there's a minimum requirement of that.
32:49
However, with awarding organizations, the infrastructure that is there is not
32:58
directly linked to a membership organization.
33:02
And whether that's right or wrong, that's not whether it is right or wrong.
33:06
It's just a fact that that is the infrastructure that awarding organizations
33:11
are creating qualifications.
33:14
Question, do they get the membership organizations into a room and actually
33:21
consult with them and actually say,
33:24
our qualifications of this, Will the outcome of this certificate get our learners
33:30
through other training providers onto the membership organization?
33:37
And if it's no, then you're providing a lot of qualifications with an outcome that's.
33:44
Is a bit fruitless because ultimately it's not fit for purpose.
33:49
And I think that's where there's a lot of marketing, there's a lot of hype,
33:55
there's a lot of outcomes, but really, is it fit for purpose for industry?
34:01
And I believe the membership organizations are at the,
34:06
fake cold face of that because they are talking, like Gary, to employers,
34:11
talking to individuals, talking to people who are all in the industry and actually
34:18
have that ear to the floor,
34:21
rather than being a little bit further back when creating a qualification.
34:27
I'm not saying people, what I'm not saying is that that doesn't happen. I'm saying people,
34:33
I don't see it often enough or hear about it often enough. So I don't want to
34:37
come across as like it doesn't happen.
34:41
I'm sure it does in certain elements, but.
34:47
I know that there are qualifications out there that are off-call regulated and
34:52
are accredited but don't carry sufficient industry,
34:58
practicum hours in order to actually reflect that attainment to a membership
35:05
organization where actually it's,
35:08
perhaps profit-related or it might be fund-related or it might be time constraints.
35:15
It might be something that a certain employer is looking for,
35:19
so it reduces that time off the shop floor. There's a lot of,
35:24
I guess, variables when creating these qualifications.
35:30
But it's so important that they're fit for purpose. Tom, I think what you've
35:35
touched on there is a really important point.
35:38
And I never imagined that I would be on a podcast defending awarding organisations for,
35:46
But awarding organisations are limited by government funding.
35:51
They're directed, informed by government
35:53
funding. Every time we get a new government, the funding changes.
35:58
If we go back to when we used to deliver motor skills training in clusters of
36:05
primary schools back in the 90s, that was because funding was targeted at.
36:11
Pre-11-year-olds to develop motor skills, hand-eye coordination.
36:15
Then the funding model changed now the funding model is is all about how can
36:21
we get the maximum numbers of people through these these courses i'm not going
36:26
to call them qualification but through these vehicles,
36:29
you know to be employable the fact that there are no employment opportunities
36:33
when they get there i think it's just another way of keeping people out of the
36:38
of the statistics for unemployment or keep them in training.
36:42
But government funding and the relative changes in government and education
36:47
ministers, et cetera, does affect what the awarding organizations do.
36:51
I had a chat with Ray today who's commenting here.
36:55
And we were talking about how hamstrung the whole industry is.
37:01
By funding and you know it's bums on seats you know and and in further education it's if i joined a,
37:08
further education course today the the provider would get the funding on the
37:11
day i start the course if it's a 60 to 19 year old they get the funding when
37:16
the person completes the course.
37:18
So it's all about results and retention and that's why we're seeing lots of
37:23
people passing the courses who feel neither competent or confident in their skills and that goes,
37:30
all the way to explaining why the attrition rate in this industry is the 75%
37:35
failure rate that's people who do a course don't work in the industry after
37:39
that if I was a training provider with a 75% attrition rate I would be questioning what I'm doing,
37:46
yeah Gary funnily enough I just made a note on my notebook about how higher
37:50
quality of training equals higher retention.
37:53
Because what I find a lot with people, they actually come and they may have
37:57
done the training, they come and do the training again, because they literally
38:00
say, I have this certificate, but I feel like I do not know what I'm doing.
38:04
And a lot of it is because they haven't had the practical hours.
38:07
They may have done online training and they just do not have the confidence
38:11
to go into the industry and to actually do the job that potentially they should be trained to do.
38:17
So in my experience, having done this for sort of nearly 30 years now, I find that,
38:23
the people that I say, you know, how long have you been doing this job for and
38:26
that have been doing it for a long time, they have had really high quality training
38:30
and felt that they walk away from
38:33
that assessment, feeling confident and competent to actually do the job.
38:38
I try and reframe it. You know, we had a membership of applications from somebody.
38:42
I won't mention names again, but they'd done a short course at level three and
38:49
they were accepted onto an online only level five course.
38:53
And they applied for membership, I politely declined and explained what I can
38:58
do to support them in their journey.
39:00
But I tried to reframe it by saying, would you, as a potential client,
39:05
go and see somebody and trust them to manage your pain or discomfort,
39:10
on the strength of them having a two-day training course and an online course?
39:14
They said, of course I wouldn't.
39:16
And yet they've signed up to do these courses believing that it equips them,
39:23
to be able to provide that level of service right,
39:26
exactly and where but but i think also it's like where do they go for the information
39:33
to be aware of it's almost like if you don't know anything you don't know.
39:39
You don't know what you don't know so you know when people go on to these kind
39:43
of courses and And that's, I don't know if there's like another thing and Gary, you know,
39:48
just to help out on that part, but when you can see so many like regulatory,
39:56
so for example, is it actually,
39:59
illegal to actually create your own sports massage course, call it a level three,
40:07
actually promoted into the marketplace?
40:11
Yes, it won't carry any recognition, but you can put on there what you want
40:15
and people can come out of the end of that course.
40:18
Having done it it's happening every day absolutely and so then every day so it comes down to like,
40:25
almost a legality is it should it,
40:29
literally be legislation and then if not it it really does come down to education
40:36
and supporting the membership organizations is your first
40:40
point i believe is your first point of call for anybody to try and find out
40:45
anything about the industry you go to the experts and that's where the sta are
40:50
this is a question well what if you,
40:53
if you look at three government white papers starting in 2010.
40:59
Enabling excellence if you look at 2017 reforming regulation and 2021 i can't
41:04
remember the name it just slipped,
41:05
but all of them say that statutory regulation for this industry and we're talking
41:10
about sports therapy is not preferable What they have all said is that membership
41:15
associations should have a robust entry criteria,
41:19
they should have a robust code of conduct and professionalism ethics,
41:23
they should have a robust renewal process, and it's a robust CPD policy. That's what we do.
41:30
Unfortunately as we were talking off air there's an email going around today
41:35
questioning some of the associations who are for commercial reasons accrediting,
41:42
in inverted commas short courses which are leading people to believe that they
41:47
are good courses and will lead to competency and confidence when in actual fact
41:52
it's leaving people disillusioned with the industry and,
41:56
I think this is an important point. I can hear a lot of listeners,
41:59
and I've heard it before. This is why you've touched this already.
42:02
People do shout out saying, oh, this is why we need regulation.
42:05
Because then it obviously sounds like there's not a big brother in place who's,
42:09
watching and stopping these things or making them illegal.
42:12
You know, but you've just kind of beat me to it, Gary, in saying that regulation
42:17
is something which is nowhere near happening or looks like it's going to happen,
42:23
with the governments, you know, what they've said in the last 20 years or so.
42:27
So my question, therefore, is if we take it that regulation is not going to
42:31
happen in the near future.
42:33
Then we've already kind of said that the pressure or the pressure,
42:37
the joy really it should be, is on the organizations and associations to help set the standards.
42:43
But what we said, interestingly, when we were getting together with SST and
42:46
the SMA and not long ago in one of the episodes is only about a third of our
42:50
profession actually belong to a professional association.
42:54
So even though us guys are meeting up at therapy show and we're talking all
42:58
that stuff and setting really good standards i'm interested what you.
43:02
Think can help us persuade the two-thirds of people who aren't members of this
43:08
professional association to actually join,
43:10
because if they come through the door then we can start putting things in place
43:14
can't we we can be that i don't want to call it big brother but we can help
43:16
them and support them and all the other beautiful stuff how do we get them through
43:19
there how do we we've got to look at the reasons and the barriers
43:22
to joining associations as i mentioned we've got a minimum criteria,
43:27
for eligibility so that may put people off if they've done a short course,
43:32
also as well you get the people who don't want to subscribe to ongoing training
43:37
they're just happy working at the you know out there converted garage you know.
43:42
Maintaining out-of-date narratives and out-of-date evidence because they're
43:47
earning a good living you know they'll go and buy a cheap chinese shockwave machine and,
43:53
and put it on there they're operating out to the side of the scope of practice
43:56
the insurance would be cancelled if anything ever happened,
44:00
but we need to as an industry we need to be either,
44:05
and we do have a lead council for soft tissue therapists who need in my opinion
44:10
to be stronger we've spoken about it before during covid there was not a lot
44:14
of guidance coming out unless it was from specifically people like myself in the STA.
44:20
So unless we start at the top and the leadership of, you know,
44:24
who have member associations as part of the council, unless they start singing
44:29
from the same hymn sheet and, and, and, and, and telling people that.
44:33
You shouldn't be able to practice, you know, unless you are a member of an association.
44:39
This is what you need to do to ensure. If you're considering doing a course, ring me up.
44:45
STA Gary on Facebook Messenger until nine o'clock every night of the week.
44:49
Ask me what I think the value of the course is. I'm not financially or emotionally
44:53
involved in course delivery or provision.
44:56
I can give you an honest appraisal based on 18 years of representing members
45:01
listening to stories listening to feedback about courses,
45:05
there's no axe to grind there's no sour grape i can just say well they've got
45:09
a good reputation or well the admin's terrible but it leads to some competencies,
45:15
I think that's what I'm trying to sort of like, you know, point to is that,
45:18
you know, the membership organization is the eyes and ears of the industry.
45:22
And that's where people should be going to ask, you know, like Gary's just mentioned,
45:28
you know, question the course.
45:31
And if you're going to go on a course that's, well, the end user,
45:35
the learner, question your training provider.
45:38
What is this going to give me? What am I going to get at the end of this?
45:42
Who actually recognizes this can i get insurance all of these things and an
45:49
individual needs to understand the knowledge some basic knowledge to be able of,
45:55
go before going on that course because if they're going to go on a course that
46:00
isn't going to give them recognition but they can still practice anyway.
46:06
What what's the fine like we're on to a we're on to a no-brainer,
46:12
there like it just doesn't that that just also tom,
46:17
you know race put in there you don't need to be a member of a membership organization to practice
46:21
let's hypothesize that you are a member of an association and there is a complaint
46:26
raised against you you know the appeals process is instigated and that member
46:31
is found out to be in breach of the Code of Conduct and Professionalism.
46:36
Do you know what my authority is? The limit of my authority is to revoke membership.
46:42
I am not allowed through GDPR legislation to share.
46:47
With other membership organizations that, you know, Therapist X has,
46:51
you know, been acting inappropriately.
46:54
So unless there's a mechanism by which we can share across the membership organizations
47:00
and associations, the fact that, you know, Joe Smith cannot,
47:04
is no longer a member because he's been inappropriate, Joe Smith can still go and practice.
47:09
We can't do a thing about it. So that's one of the downsides of not having any regulatory practice,
47:14
but also look at what the regulated professions you know you've only got to
47:18
go on the appeals and tribunals page and see how busy and how delayed and how
47:23
ineffective that process is
47:25
there isn't a there isn't a one answer fits all i think we just have to you know,
47:31
as an association i have to be the best that i can be every day i have to be
47:35
professional i have to give i have to give honest,
47:38
sometimes brutal guidance and advice i don't do it to upset people,
47:43
i just make them aware that look if you'd have had this information in the first
47:46
instance you wouldn't have booked that course you know how then do i support
47:51
that person because i've got a responsibility they book that course in good faith,
47:55
now the industry is going to let them down by saying we don't accept that you know,
48:00
go and do what you want i feel obliged to say okay let me help you let me support
48:06
you let me speak to my industry colleagues let me identify a route where you
48:10
might be able to get some form of of recognition,
48:14
and so a lot of my work is done actually supporting people who can't join the
48:17
STA because they've taken a short course.
48:22
Imagine, okay, magic wand, and this could be ridiculous or it could be the solution,
48:26
but imagine that insurance depended on not just having a first aid qualification,
48:32
but also being a member of a professional association.
48:35
Now, that could just increase the number of really terrible professional associations.
48:40
But at least that wouldn't be regulation. But it would be just,
48:45
you think it's as important as having a first aid qualification,
48:48
being a member of an organization which is not going to big brother you,
48:51
but just going to support you and provide information and help you.
48:54
You think that would be part of the career within it? And it could help,
48:57
maybe, because then everybody would have to join something.
48:59
Yolanda mentioned it before, it's supply and demand.
49:02
You know if you create a demand supply is going to come you know so we are going
49:08
to get increased numbers of poor associations.
49:11
In in defense of some of the training providers because we kind of put them
49:15
in bad light and obviously hopefully there's some training providers listening to this podcast,
49:19
i speak to a lot of training providers that want to do really well they want
49:23
to do long courses they want more practical hours and i and i work with one
49:28
specific training provider who feels very passionate this way,
49:31
but she's trying to compete with another training provider that's you know putting
49:35
courses out at half the cost that she can do
49:38
half the hours all online so she's getting people phoning all the time and saying
49:43
okay well why is yours this amount of hours when i can do it she she feels the
49:48
pressure you know how can i make my courses quicker how can i
49:52
cut down some of the practical hours because people are,
49:55
you know the demand so it's the people that are making short courses and making
49:59
it all online are kind of pressurizing those people that want to offer a high standard.
50:04
But obviously, as with all of us, people are in this, we are in this job to,
50:08
you know, have a career, to pay our bills.
50:11
And so sometimes people are training providers.
50:15
Feeling pushed into making decisions that they don't always feel comfortable
50:20
with doing, but the demand from the learners is pushing them to make these decisions.
50:26
So again, it's also, if we could set the standards of the minimum hours,
50:30
the minimal practical hours, the minimal overall hours, that also helps those
50:36
training providers because they say, well, I can't do it in any shorter hours.
50:39
I can't do it in any less practical hours. These are the standards that say
50:43
you must do these hours and these hours must be practical hours as well.
50:47
So I do feel for a lot of training providers want to really do well.
50:51
They really want to give people the best experience and make them employable,
50:56
but they're under a lot of pressure as well.
51:00
My response to that would be, you know, if they felt that strongly about it,
51:06
then there are other routes.
51:07
We don't have to deliver courses that we don't think are fit for purpose you
51:14
know we can move away from the regulated qualification framework we can move
51:18
away from the awarding organizations
51:20
we can have independent third-party external scrutiny,
51:24
two of the best courses in the uk,
51:26
are not in my opinion are not on a qualifications framework.
51:33
Two of the worst courses in the UK are not on a qualifications framework.
51:38
It's how do you manage that? And when you've got people who are selling master's
51:43
diplomas and level five sports therapy diplomas that are not on a framework,
51:50
how do you measure how valid and current those are?
51:56
You have to look at the accreditation. And if the accreditation,
51:58
if you do your due diligence, you look on Companies House, you see the people involved.
52:03
It's really quick to understand that this doesn't seem right.
52:09
And one of the things that PD approval does is we do look at what the titles are that people use.
52:14
Is it misleading when you're telling somebody they're getting a master's diploma in whatever?
52:19
You know, the language that people use in their certificate titles is something
52:24
that Tom's very passionate about, you know, not misleading what people are buying.
52:29
It's marketing, isn't it? A level five has to be better than a level four.
52:33
Again, it's trickier, which makes you think there needs to be a big brother,
52:36
needs to be somebody calling this out. But that's not always the answer.
52:40
Anyway, I want to do two things. I want to have you guys because we're getting
52:44
with nine o'clock. Are you OK to keep going? Just five minutes is nine o'clock.
52:48
I'm going to ask you in a second to give a reply to. Imagine there is anybody
52:52
we've talked about tonight. It might be a new student.
52:55
It might be a training provider. It might be anybody who we've talked about.
52:58
What advice would you give them if they've listened to this show and they're
53:01
thinking, I'll be part of this. I want to help.
53:03
Our industry involved you know i'm into this because i want to have people thank
53:07
me and have great jobs i want to feel proud of it what could they start doing
53:11
like tomorrow what could they get involved in how could they tweak what they're doing in order to,
53:16
make our industry a healthy give it a healthier future and whilst you're thinking about that,
53:21
i'm happy to start go on sorry matt i just want to i don't want to ignore people
53:25
we've had a few people who've joined us the first time tonight,
53:27
for example, just a shout out to Claire Tonks, 4748.
53:32
Hi, Claire. Spoke to her earlier this evening. First time, not qualified yet,
53:34
but you just start my level three in September. I am a good luck in that,
53:37
Claire. Thanks very much for joining us.
53:40
We won't ask you to say who you're doing that course with, but I'd be interested
53:44
to know why you chose that course. Maybe don't say who it is,
53:46
but how did you choose them? What did you arrive to? That'd be quite interesting
53:48
to hear, but good luck anyway.
53:50
Also, I wanted to give a shout out to here. This was a nice comment here from
53:55
Ian Lynch, who says, just started out on the PD approval process following advice from Gary.
54:00
Fully agree with the need for high standards and from early experiences,
54:04
the high standards expected are evident. There you go. There's a nice shout out there as well.
54:08
And thank you everybody else who's joined in and given advice and shared it
54:13
um if you are listening to the podcast and you've got some questions or some
54:16
follow-ups and obviously you're not listening to the live then do go along to,
54:20
youtube and put a comment in there we like these we knock these out like every
54:24
week i'm really conscious that it's such a shame if the shelf life of each episode
54:28
is a week because these are things we hopefully we can keep talking about so
54:31
if you listen to the podcast and you've got some views,
54:33
go to youtube sports social association youtube channel and leave a question in there.
54:37
And I promise you, I will go in and I will look at the question and I will send
54:39
it to the relevant person and give you an answer just to keep the conversation
54:42
going. So do do that if you listen to the podcast.
54:45
Right then, back to you guys. Yeah, how are we going to make a difference?
54:49
Small little steps, maybe something tiny, but what can people who are listening do, do you think?
54:53
I think one of the things that we can do, Matt, as a therapist who's looking
54:59
to get better, you know, looking to improve their skills, we should surround
55:03
ourselves with positive people.
55:06
We should look for personal recommendations from courses, not just from one
55:10
person, but from multiple sources.
55:13
If you're a member of an association, and they are not supporting you with guidance, ring them up.
55:20
Ask them why they're not supporting you. If they're not providing you with evidence-based
55:24
resources or mentoring opportunities or coffee evening chats every fortnight,
55:29
ring them up and ask them why. What are you paying your membership for?
55:32
If you're an STA member and you don't agree with something that we're doing, make me accountable.
55:38
Every member has my personal phone number, has my STA Gary Facebook,
55:42
you know and my whatsapp make me accountable i'm here to guide and support you
55:49
but you have to make me accountable if you don't think we're heading in the right direction,
55:53
we need to be policed upwards and downwards,
55:57
it's great thank you gary.
56:00
Geez your friends can be busy but you know you're a big man now you offer these
56:03
things out and yeah they'll take you up I'm sure. Yolanda anything come to mind?
56:09
Really two things if you're a learner is as Gary said but research you know
56:13
if speak to people who are doing the job try to find somebody who's been doing
56:17
the job for a long time and who you know values their job but not just the short time,
56:24
and if you're a training provider and you're offering amazing training and you
56:28
want to be recognized for that amazing training, then contact PD approval.
56:32
Because as Tom said, we are here to support you.
56:35
If you come to us and you don't maybe have some things in place, then we can support you.
56:42
We want to make you the best training provider that you can be.
56:46
And the same for the students. We want to make you the best therapist that you
56:48
can be. So surround yourself with people, the right people.
56:53
And if you don't know who the right people are, contact the people on this podcast
56:56
because, you know, hopefully they are. Yeah, exactly.
56:59
Even if you just want to ask a question, we're all here to support the industry.
57:05
It's not like once we've finished here, that's it. You can't talk to anybody.
57:10
It's absolutely reach out. And if we can't find an answer, then we'll get it to you.
57:15
We're all here to support everybody. But I think also I would echo both Gary
57:20
and Ulander on all of what you said there, as well as just highlighting trying to go to work.
57:27
Verifiable and authentic websites to search for courses, like going on to the
57:33
STA, looking at who's accredited, who,
57:37
is endorsed, going on to PD approvals website, and the PD portal,
57:43
we've got, you know, going on to these sites to find, we'll only list,
57:47
and Gary will only list courses,
57:50
that we have recognized and approved.
57:53
And it's going to those sources that are finding them.
57:58
We're doing the job for you in terms of actually doing that.
58:02
So go to credible websites that are going to be able to give you that.
58:08
Answer, but also give you that backup if there's an issue.
58:14
For example, if it's accredited by PD approval and you're not happy with that course,
58:19
that's our role as an accrediting body to go and find out what's going on,
58:25
what's happening and support that learner or equally support the training provider.
58:31
It's to support the end user, whoever's affected that we can do.
58:34
And that's why people pay for their courses that are recognized and also for
58:41
the certificate it's not,
58:43
a quick cheap win it's something that all of the time and energy,
58:49
and industry are putting into this infrastructure to create a positive
58:55
learner journey and that is the outcome is a positive learner journey is not
59:00
just like hey great i had a fantastic course and it's whizzy and it's all Interactive.
59:06
It's everything from start from enrollment through to the qualifications of
59:11
the tutor, the assessor, the Intel Quality Assurer, making sure that they're
59:16
technically qualified,
59:18
making sure that that certificate means something, making sure that it can get
59:22
onto a membership organization.
59:24
All of this infrastructure has been set up in place over time and has been invested,
59:31
by passionate people to want to ensure that that learner.
59:36
Practitioner, instructor, teacher has the best opportunity that they can.
59:41
So going to those verifiable websites are there for a purpose.
59:48
Don't just go to Google and find out what's there because those that have got
59:53
a sponsorship, those that have got great SEO hits and things like that are going to pop up.
1:00:01
But how do you verify that? Well, go to those websites that actually are verifiable.
1:00:06
Matt, I've just got one small step for Gary.
1:00:10
What about putting on the STA sort of 10 questions that I should ask a training
1:00:15
provider before parting with my money? Yeah, I'm going to do that.
1:00:20
10 Qs. I'll get that sorted out on the FAQs.
1:00:24
That might be saying all this, but people still probably don't know what actions
1:00:27
you're going to be asking. So things like, are your tutors qualified?
1:00:31
Is the assessor actually the tutor? Do you have internal quality assurance?
1:00:35
Maybe those kind of questions, if they could be available for people that may
1:00:39
be watching this and thinking, I don't know what to ask when I ring up or email
1:00:44
a company, maybe you could provide those questions.
1:00:47
Yeah. What you will find is if you ring up one of the larger trading providers,
1:00:52
you will actually talk to a salesman and not an occupationally competent janitor
1:00:57
or therapist. So you're always on a downer there.
1:01:00
You know if if a if a training provider is reputable and those yolanda was talking
1:01:04
about who are passionate about delivering a standard
1:01:08
they wouldn't mind if you if you ask you know can i come along and see a class
1:01:11
in action you know can i attend for a morning can i see can i speak to existing students,
1:01:16
yeah because that's a really good way of getting a feel but as tom mentioned
1:01:21
the whole experience from signing up to the course the administrative processes
1:01:26
the communication, the tutoring,
1:01:28
the responses to questions should be seamless. And if it's not.
1:01:33
Ask why not. Yeah. Exactly. I think a lot of people won't realize that they
1:01:37
could ask those questions. Could I come and watch some training?
1:01:41
So I think that would be a really good question. And if a training provider
1:01:45
says absolutely no way, then maybe you'd be thinking, well, why wouldn't they
1:01:48
want me, before I part with my money, to come and maybe watch some,
1:01:53
you know, teaching or some students?
1:01:55
And I think also verify the answer as well. I think Gary was right in that when
1:01:59
you call up a training provider, there will be a sales person,
1:02:03
a large, you know, like, you know, a larger providers or even small, like
1:02:07
there will be a sales person or somebody on the end of that phone who will provide an answer.
1:02:12
Well, verify that answer yourself. Go and actually, if they say it will get
1:02:17
you onto the STA, call up the STA.
1:02:20
And say, will this course actually give me entry or is it recognized?
1:02:26
Because I think we're in a world now where there is so much information,
1:02:34
that can't be trusted. And how do you verify that?
1:02:38
That's something that a whole, even for example, on the BBC,
1:02:41
they've got a whole department to verify news, to make sure that whatever somebody
1:02:48
is saying, they verify that. There's a whole department to do it and and.
1:02:55
When that's a good example no i know but,
1:03:00
but it's just making sure that we actually verify you've got to verify the information
1:03:04
that you're being given and where do you do that and i think that would be to go to,
1:03:08
i'm gonna wrap it up people there's so much information there i just want to say as well i think,
1:03:12
all you the common theme amongst what you suggested and recommended is all
1:03:17
communication but i think a lot of it is down to people out there to have the
1:03:21
confidence in your rights sometimes it's easy to get bamboozled by something
1:03:26
and a little voice inside will go this sounds weird,
1:03:29
no well i don't have to touch anybody i'm going to get a qualification which
1:03:33
usually people have got an innate sense of what's right and wrong inside them
1:03:38
but sometimes that gets clouded over so i think my message to the listener here
1:03:42
would be just to trust yourself more,
1:03:44
trust your gut instinct and realize that asking a question is not going to make
1:03:49
you an idiot. It's not going to make you look out to be stupid.
1:03:51
You've got the right to ask the question. There's people you can ask.
1:03:53
So take that confidence with you and challenge, you know, take control of it.
1:03:58
And also the other thing I just want to mention is all the people listening
1:04:01
to this podcast, you're probably on the right page.
1:04:02
The fact you listen to this podcast shows that you've got an openness to wanting
1:04:06
to understand and reflect and critique yourself and open to changing things.
1:04:12
The trouble is, even though there's like 3,000 of you or something a month,
1:04:15
we need the other whatever thousands of therapists.
1:04:18
So one thing you could do to help as well is just share this show,
1:04:22
not because we're making any money out of it, obviously we're not,
1:04:24
just share it with people who wouldn't normally listen, because I think that's
1:04:27
a way of helping our industry as well.
1:04:29
The two-thirds of people who are sports therapists who aren't a member of a
1:04:32
professional association, it's probably because they don't even know that it
1:04:35
doesn't cost that much necessarily.
1:04:37
They don't even know it exists. They've got no idea. So do your bit for the
1:04:40
industry just by informing somebody you know, hey, did you know this exists?
1:04:43
Did you know it's like 70 pounds or whatever it is a year? Did you know they give this?
1:04:47
And that could help as well. So you are, you can make a massive difference to
1:04:49
the future of sports therapy just by reaching out to people who aren't informed,
1:04:53
as well as people who are misinformed. So there you go.
1:04:56
Right, we're going to wrap it up. Thank you so much. There's so much information
1:04:59
there. Thank you, Tom, Bill. Thanks a lot. And Amanda Green,
1:05:01
amazing, for PD approval.
1:05:04
And thank you, Gary, as well. So much advice there. I just want to make sure,
1:05:08
for good old Mike, we've mentioned a few times, I worked at LA Fitness for a
1:05:10
while as well in Coventry. Wow.
1:05:12
I was going back to something. Yeah, I remember Kevin Yates,
1:05:15
yeah. Remember that? I was there for a while. Yeah.
1:05:17
Still got photos upstairs. It's hilarious. I went down the David Lloyd route.
1:05:21
Did you just go to Fitbro conferences and all that stuff? Yeah.
1:05:23
I love it, bro. The Canberra Sands.
1:05:26
Stuff like that I wasn't I didn't have enough money to get off the Loughborough's camera sands I do,
1:05:31
remember the camera sands and the nice chalets yeah yeah yeah beautiful around
1:05:34
there all the instructors just getting off with each other and all the sorts
1:05:37
of stuff was going well it was totally incestuous but they were the good old
1:05:40
days it was fine back then you were allowed to,
1:05:42
so yeah anyway we went on a slight tangent there I do want to mention for good
1:05:46
old Mike Grice that yeah just to remind you Mike's done a fantastic show,
1:05:52
fantastic effort putting together the Midlands SDA conference We had the second
1:05:55
one not long ago in Dorset with Alex.
1:05:57
And now we've got Mike running the Midlands STAA conference,
1:06:00
which is on June the 20th.
1:06:02
So check that out now. Go to Sports Therapy Association Facebook page or go
1:06:07
to UK underscore STA and there'll be adverts for it.
1:06:10
And like I said, there's some amazing speakers there and you'll be quite surprised
1:06:13
by who's coming along. Actually, it's amazing.
1:06:15
But also Mike will be with me next week on Tuesday, June the 16th with fellow
1:06:21
speaker Kieran McMahon.
1:06:23
And apologies if that's not the pronunciation but so that's something for you
1:06:26
guys to look out for but don't wait until next week to decide whether to get
1:06:28
a ticket have a look now and form yourselves and do it,
1:06:31
and that'd be great for a meetup if you're in the Midlands area right thank
1:06:35
you once again Tom, Yolanda Gary thanks so much for your time.
1:06:39
Thank you everyone who joined us live as well thank you for everyone who listens
1:06:41
to the podcast do leave a rating and review and maybe join us next Tuesday until
1:06:46
then as always take care of yourselves and of each other see you soon.