Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #587 Maggie Freleng with Deborah Nicholls

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#587 Maggie Freleng with Deborah Nicholls · Wrongful Conviction

0:04
Speaker 1: This is Jason Flahman, Welcome back to ronful Conviction. In
0:08
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Maggie Feeling shared the devastating story of
0:12
Speaker 1: Deborah Nichols, a Colorado spring's mother who lost all three
0:15
Speaker 1: of her children in a tragic two thousand and three
0:18
Speaker 1: house fire, and who was later convicted of having caused
0:22
Speaker 1: their deaths. Deb's conviction rested on discredited arson science testimony
0:29
Speaker 1: from a fire expert who was later discredited for unethical
0:32
Speaker 1: conduct and even for judgments about whether Deb was grieving
0:37
Speaker 1: her children quote unquote properly. While now we have a
0:43
Speaker 1: major breakthrough to report, because in April of this year,
0:46
Speaker 1: a judge found that prosecutors had committed a Brady violation
0:49
Speaker 1: in Deb's case, meaning that evidence favorable to her defense
0:53
Speaker 1: had been withheld, and on August first, Deb's conviction was
0:58
Speaker 1: finally vacated. One of the prosecutors from Deb's case, now
1:03
Speaker 1: a district attorney in a nearby county of Colorado, was
1:07
Speaker 1: also recently removed, along with his entire office, from an
1:10
Speaker 1: unrelated murder case after a judge found a pattern of
1:14
Speaker 1: having failed to turn over evidence that was favorable to
1:18
Speaker 1: the defense. Now, while dev remains in custody for now.
1:22
Speaker 1: A status conference is set for today and her attorneys
1:26
Speaker 1: are hopeful, as are we, that she'll soon be released
1:29
Speaker 1: on bond. So after twenty three long, miserable years, Deb's
1:35
Speaker 1: fight isn't over, but this is a huge step towards
1:39
Speaker 1: justice and hopefully towards some long overdue peace and healing
1:45
Speaker 1: for deb and her family.
2:00
Speaker 2: Evening of March sixth, two thousand and three was a
2:03
Speaker 2: typical Thursday for the Nicholls family. That night, Deborah Nichols
2:06
Speaker 2: put her three energetic kids to bed. After her husband
2:10
Speaker 2: Tim got home, she left the house to interview an
2:12
Speaker 2: employee for their karaoke business. When she returned home, her
2:16
Speaker 2: world had been turned upside down that night.
2:23
Speaker 3: I went from just needing to hire someone to fill
2:27
Speaker 3: a shift to losing my whole little family.
2:34
Speaker 2: It was a mother's worst nightmare. And when it was over,
2:38
Speaker 2: all three of Deb's children had died in a terrible accident.
2:43
Speaker 2: She was so stricken with grief that she couldn't bring
2:46
Speaker 2: herself to attend their funeral.
2:51
Speaker 3: I was trying to get ready to go in the funeral,
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Speaker 3: and my body was breaking down and I was shaking
2:59
Speaker 3: so bad. I just had to sit down and give
3:03
Speaker 3: in and surrender. I can't go, I can't do it.
3:09
Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets. It was too much,
3:15
Speaker 3: It was too much. My name is deb Nichols. I'm
3:24
Speaker 3: currently serving three life sentences at Denver Women's Correctional.
3:28
Speaker 2: Facility from Lava for good. This is wrongful conviction with
3:35
Speaker 2: Maggie Freeling today Deb Nichols. Deborah Nichols was born May fourth,
3:51
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven in Dearborn, Michigan. She grew up in
3:55
Speaker 2: a large, blended family.
3:58
Speaker 3: Having seven brothers and sister was a blast. We had
4:01
Speaker 3: a great childhood. Northern Michigan has beautiful weather, like the
4:09
Speaker 3: perfect four seasons, so we as children took full rain
4:15
Speaker 3: with all of it and did a lot of skating
4:17
Speaker 3: and skiing and swimming or just going down to the
4:21
Speaker 3: end of the street to the bay and playing in
4:23
Speaker 3: the water all day, all summer long. We had so
4:27
Speaker 3: much fun.
4:32
Speaker 2: So can you tell listeners about Deborah? What's she like?
4:36
Speaker 2: What was she like growing up?
4:38
Speaker 4: Well, as you probably gathered talking to her, she's a
4:41
Speaker 4: pretty strong girl.
4:43
Speaker 2: This is Dev's father, Doug bamb Gardner.
4:46
Speaker 4: Pretty strong will and has no problems, doing things her
4:51
Speaker 4: way and trying to attain what she's headed for. She
4:57
Speaker 4: was always that way all of her life.
5:02
Speaker 2: Her family later moved to Colorado, but for college, Deb
5:05
Speaker 2: carved her own path and moved out to California. After
5:09
Speaker 2: studying in San Diego for a year, Deb left the
5:11
Speaker 2: West Coast and joined her family in Colorado. When Deb
5:15
Speaker 2: was twenty four, she gave birth to her first child,
5:18
Speaker 2: a son. They called him JJ.
5:21
Speaker 3: JJ's nickname was Peanut, and he was just absolutely beautiful,
5:26
Speaker 3: like he was my little buddy, my little man, and
5:33
Speaker 3: we did everything together.
5:38
Speaker 2: Deb went on to have a second son, Spencer, but tragically,
5:42
Speaker 2: when he was three months old, Spencer passed away from
5:45
Speaker 2: sudden infant death syndrome, also known as sid's. Despite her loss,
5:50
Speaker 2: Deb continued to try and be the best mom she
5:53
Speaker 2: could to JJ. By nineteen ninety three, she was living
5:57
Speaker 2: in a suburb of Colorado Springs, working to and going
6:00
Speaker 2: to school. One night, she went out to a local
6:03
Speaker 2: bar to let loose and indulge in one of her passions,
6:06
Speaker 2: singing karaoke. What is your karaoke song? Do you have
6:10
Speaker 2: a go to?
6:13
Speaker 3: I really liked What's Up with four Non Blonde.
6:16
Speaker 2: I do love that song.
6:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a good one.
6:22
Speaker 2: When Deb walked in, a man was already at the mic.
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Speaker 2: She recognized the song right away.
6:28
Speaker 3: I mean, you are my Shining Star, which is one
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Speaker 3: of my favorite songs in like eighth grade. And he
6:35
Speaker 3: was really cute and he was new and I had
6:37
Speaker 3: never seen him before, and I was like, hey, that's
6:40
Speaker 3: one of my favorite songs. You know, come sit by me.
6:45
Speaker 2: His name was Tim Nichols, and they hit it off.
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Speaker 3: We talked all night long and we basically never left
6:52
Speaker 3: each other's side after that.
6:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, described him to me, What does he like?
7:00
Speaker 3: Tim is a lot of powerhouse and a little guy.
7:08
Speaker 5: He's like five nine.
7:12
Speaker 3: He had integrity, which is something that was so hard
7:17
Speaker 3: to find. It such a rare quality nowadays. And because
7:21
Speaker 3: he's just such a good guy through the right thing,
7:23
Speaker 3: no matter what. And I that was the kind of
7:27
Speaker 3: guy I wanted to be with forever.
7:38
Speaker 2: Tim and Deb were best friends, and Tim loved JJ
7:42
Speaker 2: like his own son.
7:44
Speaker 3: Tim and JJ were just like so bonded that Tim
7:51
Speaker 3: adopted JJ and we got married and started our family.
7:59
Speaker 3: I have to say I loved getting married. I loved
8:01
Speaker 3: being married. It really does take your relationship to a
8:06
Speaker 3: different level.
8:10
Speaker 2: Soon after that, in nineteen ninety seven, their daughter Sophia
8:13
Speaker 2: was born.
8:15
Speaker 3: She was absolutely amazing. She loved people to be happy.
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Speaker 3: She was always smiling. She was the essence of joy.
8:27
Speaker 2: Two years later, their second daughter, Sierra came. They nicknamed
8:30
Speaker 2: her Rara.
8:33
Speaker 3: That little girl was just so calming and so peaceful,
8:37
Speaker 3: and she would just like go around the room and
8:41
Speaker 3: check everything out. She was just so little and delicate
8:44
Speaker 3: and beautiful. Jg was my passion, Sophia was my joy,
8:51
Speaker 3: and Rara was my peace. They were my absolute world.
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Speaker 3: I was so blessed.
9:08
Speaker 2: The family was thriving. Deb was working on getting her
9:11
Speaker 2: real estate license. They had started a construction business and
9:14
Speaker 2: even bought a house. They were busy, but they found
9:17
Speaker 2: time for each other too.
9:19
Speaker 5: You know.
9:20
Speaker 3: Once I have was done nursing, we started going out,
9:24
Speaker 3: you know, on date nights, and we went to a
9:27
Speaker 3: karaoke bar and like it was so fun. It's like
9:31
Speaker 3: soul food.
9:32
Speaker 2: Deb and Tim decided to start a side business together,
9:35
Speaker 2: doing something they loved, the thing that had brought them together,
9:39
Speaker 2: a karaoke business.
9:41
Speaker 3: We took the plunge and started our own and got
9:44
Speaker 3: really good equipment, and you know, I got all those
9:48
Speaker 3: songs like the Gries duets and stuff. It was just
9:52
Speaker 3: really fun.
9:53
Speaker 5: It was for just pure enjoyment, just go be able
9:55
Speaker 5: to let loose and enjoy yourself.
10:00
Speaker 2: But Tim and their family had everything going for.
10:02
Speaker 3: Them, living the American dream basically, but.
10:07
Speaker 2: That dream soon came to a crashing halt. On the
10:14
Speaker 2: evening of March sixth, two thousand and three, Deb was
10:17
Speaker 2: home with her three children, getting them ready for bed.
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Speaker 3: JJ was going to a birthday party on Friday, which
10:25
Speaker 3: this lady was taking ten little twelve year old skiing.
10:29
Speaker 3: So I got a bunch of you know, chips and
10:32
Speaker 3: stuff and bought the girls some sparkly tattoos, old temporary tattoos,
10:37
Speaker 3: because you can't get one kid's stuff without the other
10:40
Speaker 3: kids getting stuff too.
10:42
Speaker 2: She says. The kids were really hyper.
10:44
Speaker 3: That night, but I had to put them back to
10:47
Speaker 3: bed like three or four times, because you know, the
10:49
Speaker 3: girls were excited about these sparkly tattoos, and JJ was
10:53
Speaker 3: so excited about his birthday party excursion.
10:56
Speaker 2: The next day, the kids finally fell sleep, which gave
11:00
Speaker 2: Deb time to catch up on some chores around the house.
11:03
Speaker 2: Tim got home from work around eleven that night, and
11:06
Speaker 2: he was tired.
11:07
Speaker 3: I knew he'd worked really hard all week, and I
11:11
Speaker 3: told Tim, you know, I'd clean the house. I lick
11:15
Speaker 3: candles for the ambiance, and I literally had dinner in
11:19
Speaker 3: the oven and his favorite beer in the freezers so
11:23
Speaker 3: he could just have a beer in dinner.
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Speaker 2: DEB had an appointment to go meet a new karaoke
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Speaker 2: jockey for their business.
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Speaker 3: And I was like, you know, I have to go
11:31
Speaker 3: to this kJ interview. Make sure you blow up the
11:34
Speaker 3: candles and I left.
11:39
Speaker 2: After the interview, DEB hung around the bar like she
11:41
Speaker 2: usually did. She had a few drinks and sang some karaoke, and.
11:45
Speaker 3: Because I had a drink or two, I didn't want
11:48
Speaker 3: to drive.
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Speaker 2: So when the bar was closing around two am, DEB
11:52
Speaker 2: asked one of her employees, Carl, for a ride home.
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Speaker 2: Everything was business as usual until they turned onto Deb's street.
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Speaker 3: You could see the emergency lights as we were coming
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Speaker 3: up the street, and the closer we got to my street,
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Speaker 3: the more emergency vehicles that we could see, and so
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Speaker 3: I started a panic and I just asked Carl to
12:21
Speaker 3: stop the car and I got out of the car
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Speaker 3: and started running around the corner and saw it was
12:29
Speaker 3: my house and it was on fire. And the closer
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Speaker 3: I got, you know, there's probably two hundred people in
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Speaker 3: front of my house. And I kept hearing everyone go,
12:42
Speaker 3: you know, that's.
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Speaker 5: Her, that's the mom, and you.
12:46
Speaker 3: Know, the panic was setting in. I was literally terrified,
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Speaker 3: and my brain was like, I just I needed to
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Speaker 3: get to the back and make sure the kids are okay.
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Speaker 5: And and these cops and these firemen were like pushing
13:03
Speaker 5: me back and sand it was almost like they were
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Speaker 5: wrestling me to the ground because I'm.
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Speaker 3: Like, you know, I need to go see if my
13:12
Speaker 3: children are okay. I need to get back to the house.
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Speaker 2: Officials told her she needed to go to the hospital,
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Speaker 2: but they weren't telling her what was going on.
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Speaker 3: It looked really.
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Speaker 5: Bad, but it's the only way I could get information
13:26
Speaker 5: was to go to the hospital.
13:28
Speaker 3: Was like fine, and so I went. And the whole
13:33
Speaker 3: ride to the hospital, like, the policeman didn't tell me anything.
13:49
Speaker 2: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.
13:54
Speaker 2: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making
13:58
Speaker 2: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and
14:00
Speaker 2: in the communities where they work and live. In light
14:03
Speaker 2: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance and
14:06
Speaker 2: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform.
14:11
Speaker 2: The AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and
14:15
Speaker 2: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. When dev got
14:27
Speaker 2: to the hospital, she was taken to a room to
14:29
Speaker 2: wait for the doctor to come and.
14:30
Speaker 3: Talk with her, you know. And he walked in and
14:35
Speaker 3: she said, j jabs dead. Good night. Remember saying deadd No,
14:42
Speaker 3: no one said anything about dead. And then he said
14:49
Speaker 3: she are may the youngest. She died off, and I
14:57
Speaker 3: felt my mind leave my body and the adrenaline and
15:01
Speaker 3: my body took over, and I ran out of hospital
15:07
Speaker 3: and my only thought was I just need to go.
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Speaker 3: We'll go, I mean walk to the Pacific Ocean and
15:16
Speaker 3: that's it doesn't make any sense, but I now look
15:20
Speaker 3: back and like that was the adrenaline and the panic
15:27
Speaker 3: and where I always feel the safest, on the beach
15:30
Speaker 3: by the water.
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Speaker 2: It turns out Sophia was still alive, but she didn't
15:37
Speaker 2: have long to live.
15:40
Speaker 3: And I went back to the hospital and they led
15:44
Speaker 3: me to Sophia's room and she was had tubes everywhere.
15:52
Speaker 3: There was just a little clear spot on her little
15:55
Speaker 3: chest and I was able to put my head on
15:59
Speaker 3: her chest, put my ear to her heart, and I
16:02
Speaker 3: could hear a heart beating, and it was beating so fast.
16:18
Speaker 2: Tim was also in critical condition. In the process of
16:21
Speaker 2: trying to save him, the doctors had taken Tim's wedding
16:24
Speaker 2: ring off. Deb asked if she could keep it, and
16:27
Speaker 2: then she was confronted with more agony.
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Speaker 3: And then they asked me to say goodbye to Sierrah,
16:35
Speaker 3: me my baby girl that we called raw Rah. And
16:40
Speaker 3: I got told her and say goodbye, and she didn't
16:44
Speaker 3: look hurt or burned or anything. She just looked like
16:48
Speaker 3: she was sleeping. Roba was a real big daddy's girl,
16:54
Speaker 3: and she loved her daddy so much. And I looked
16:58
Speaker 3: at the wedding ring in my hand as Kim's, and
17:03
Speaker 3: I decided to put that on her so this could
17:05
Speaker 3: be very visit.
17:17
Speaker 2: Sierra and JJ had both died of smoke inhalation, Sofia
17:21
Speaker 2: was still hanging on for dear life and Tim had
17:23
Speaker 2: been transferred to a burn unit in Denver, and Dev's
17:27
Speaker 2: family and friends were starting to arrive at the hospital.
17:31
Speaker 3: They all wanted to help me, but there was no
17:36
Speaker 3: helping me. I was devastated. I was terrified, this panicked,
17:44
Speaker 3: and I didn't want anyone to catch me. I was
17:47
Speaker 3: just so sick of everyone trying to hug me like
17:51
Speaker 3: you No, I have to figure this out.
17:54
Speaker 2: By morning, DEV was informed that Sophia had also died, and.
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Speaker 3: I put my wedding ring on Sophia's little finger, and
18:05
Speaker 3: I got to say goodbye to Sofia, and then I
18:09
Speaker 3: went right to the hospital up in Denver and was
18:14
Speaker 3: with Tim and my family and we just we sat
18:17
Speaker 3: vigil with Tim.
18:22
Speaker 2: Tim's injuries were serious, but eventually he was able to
18:26
Speaker 2: leave the hospital. With no home to go back to,
18:29
Speaker 2: the two of them lived out of a motel room.
18:32
Speaker 2: Deb's father and stepmother stayed close to help. Tim was
18:36
Speaker 2: still recovering from his injuries, and Doug took charge of
18:39
Speaker 2: his care, tending to his burns and changing his bandages.
18:43
Speaker 4: I was the only one that could take care of
18:45
Speaker 4: the burns without pulkin and getting sick, so anyway, that
18:50
Speaker 4: was my job for the rest of the time we were there.
18:55
Speaker 2: But Doug was also having a hard time. His daughter
18:58
Speaker 2: had lost her children and he had lost his grandchildren.
19:02
Speaker 4: Can I show you a picture of the kids. Have
19:04
Speaker 4: you ever seen one?
19:05
Speaker 2: Show me?
19:08
Speaker 6: I got to reach it up there, I see. And anyway,
19:15
Speaker 6: this was the last picture of them. This was taken
19:18
Speaker 6: just before they all died.
19:20
Speaker 2: When was that Christmas?
19:21
Speaker 4: Just after? Yeah, in March, I guess. But they had
19:26
Speaker 4: little halos on even.
19:34
Speaker 3: I went from just needing to hire someone to fill
19:39
Speaker 3: a shift to losing my whole little family.
19:53
Speaker 2: Deb and Tim had lost their children, their home, and
19:57
Speaker 2: everything they owned, and as they ruggled with their grief,
20:01
Speaker 2: their marriage was deteriorating.
20:05
Speaker 3: We weren't doing well at all. Actually, our souls were broken.
20:12
Speaker 3: We weren't He wasn't the same man. I wasn't the
20:16
Speaker 3: same woman. We're fighting constantly in It was horrible. We
20:21
Speaker 3: were in different places with the grieving, you know, like
20:25
Speaker 3: he would want to remember the kids and I would
20:27
Speaker 3: be like in denial, and we just couldn't get on
20:31
Speaker 3: the same page. And we were actually doing more damage
20:34
Speaker 3: to each other than we were helping. None of any
20:38
Speaker 3: of it made any sense. I was not thinking clearly.
20:43
Speaker 3: I literally would buy boxes of wine and put them
20:46
Speaker 3: in my windowsill, and when I'd wake up in the morning,
20:49
Speaker 3: I'd start drinking white esin and I'd drink it all day.
20:54
Speaker 4: She ended up coming home here with us, and she
20:59
Speaker 4: was basically in trauma. I mean we're talking months after
21:03
Speaker 4: the fire, and you know, me and her were go
21:07
Speaker 4: down to her bedroom till she cried.
21:10
Speaker 2: Hers all asleep, and it was about to get a
21:15
Speaker 2: lot worse. Because Tim was the sole survivor from inside
21:19
Speaker 2: the house fire, police were suspicious. One day, the police
21:23
Speaker 2: called him into the station, saying they needed him to
21:26
Speaker 2: pick up some property from the fire, but Deb says
21:28
Speaker 2: it was a ruse to get her alone.
21:31
Speaker 3: As soon as he left, the doorbell rang and it
21:33
Speaker 3: was Derek Graham and another detective and they were like,
21:39
Speaker 3: you know, oh, we need to talk to you. We
21:41
Speaker 3: think your husband did this. And I remember telling them
21:44
Speaker 3: absolutely not. They didn't know what they were talking about.
21:48
Speaker 3: My husband loved his children more than his own life.
21:53
Speaker 3: They said, well, we have evidence. I said, no, you don't,
21:56
Speaker 3: and if you do, it's wrong. And then I asked
21:59
Speaker 3: them to leave, and I thought that would be the
22:02
Speaker 3: end of it.
22:04
Speaker 2: But it wasn't. Detective Graham was also scrutinizing Deb's behavior,
22:09
Speaker 2: particularly at the hospital.
22:12
Speaker 3: And then he put like his notes that I wasn't
22:15
Speaker 3: crying properly or whatever. And I'm thinking you didn't think
22:19
Speaker 3: I was crying properly. I couldn't even remember to breathe
22:22
Speaker 3: or close my mouth, and you're judging me like that.
22:27
Speaker 2: But the way Detective Graham saw it, these two parents
22:30
Speaker 2: had something to do with the deaths of their children.
22:39
Speaker 2: After a two year investigation, on July twenty first, two
22:43
Speaker 2: thousand and five, the grand jury indicted Tim Nichols for
22:46
Speaker 2: the murders of eleven year old Jj, five year old Sophia,
22:51
Speaker 2: and three year old Sierra. Deb was also indicted that
22:54
Speaker 2: day for minor counts from before the fire, including drug use,
22:59
Speaker 2: but more than two few years later, in November two
23:01
Speaker 2: thousand and seven, she too was indicted for the murders
23:05
Speaker 2: of their children. Deb and Tim were tried separately. Tim's
23:15
Speaker 2: trial came first before Deb's trial even began. He was
23:19
Speaker 2: convicted of three counts a first degree murder. Deb's trial
23:25
Speaker 2: started on October fourteenth, two thousand and eight. The prosecutors,
23:29
Speaker 2: Assistant district attorneys Amy Mulaney and David Lindsay, presented the
23:34
Speaker 2: theory that Deb had developed an addiction to methamphetamine and
23:38
Speaker 2: needed money for drug related debts, so she conspired with
23:41
Speaker 2: Tim to burn down their house and family for the
23:45
Speaker 2: insurance money. They said that meth users would do anything
23:49
Speaker 2: to get more meth.
23:51
Speaker 7: And according to the prosecution, that would include killing their
23:55
Speaker 7: three children to get more methamphetamine, and there was very
23:58
Speaker 7: little evidence to support that at all, but that was
24:01
Speaker 7: their theory.
24:03
Speaker 2: This is Kathleen Lord. She's a staff attorney at the
24:06
Speaker 2: Cory Wise Innocence Project at Colorado Law. Kathleen says that
24:10
Speaker 2: while Deb did do drugs occasionally, there's.
24:14
Speaker 7: Not evidence that she was a meth addict. She was
24:18
Speaker 7: first turned on to meth by one of the state's
24:22
Speaker 7: witnesses as a way to lose weight, and there was
24:26
Speaker 7: a lot of speculation on the prosecution's part.
24:32
Speaker 2: The state had one major problem with its case. Deb
24:36
Speaker 2: wasn't home the night of the fire, so the state
24:38
Speaker 2: argued she had to have an accomplice. They said she
24:41
Speaker 2: planned it with Tim, who had already been convicted.
24:45
Speaker 8: There's something that we're uncomfortable with, and I think that
24:48
Speaker 8: we're uncomfortable with the fact that there was a father
24:51
Speaker 8: at home with his children and he escaped the fire
24:53
Speaker 8: and his children didn't.
24:55
Speaker 2: Anne Marie Moyees is the director of the Cory Wise
24:58
Speaker 2: Innocence Project. She says that right from the beginning, the
25:01
Speaker 2: police focused on deb and Tamas suspects.
25:05
Speaker 8: There's a real impulse to blame him and to embrace
25:08
Speaker 8: narratives that put him at fault for what happened. And
25:11
Speaker 8: so I think that was the kernel that started all
25:14
Speaker 8: of this, and then the confirmation bias sets in, and
25:18
Speaker 8: then every piece of evidence is seen through this lend
25:22
Speaker 8: of that expectation.
25:26
Speaker 2: Here's how the state's case began.
25:31
Speaker 8: Somewhat early in the investigation, they led an arson dog
25:35
Speaker 8: through the fire scene and the dog was trained to
25:38
Speaker 8: alert to the possible presence of an ignitable liquid, and
25:42
Speaker 8: the dog did alert at multiple locations in the living room,
25:45
Speaker 8: in the stairway at the house. They said, okay, well
25:48
Speaker 8: we found xylenes, and xilenes are a chemical compound in
25:53
Speaker 8: ignitable liquids.
25:55
Speaker 2: Xilenes are also commonly detected when furniture and other household
25:59
Speaker 2: items burn in a fire. Yet, the prosecution argued that
26:03
Speaker 2: the presence of xilen's showed that the fire was deliberately
26:07
Speaker 2: set using an ignitable liquid.
26:10
Speaker 8: They had an expert whose name is John Dehan, and
26:14
Speaker 8: he testified that he was able to determine that only
26:19
Speaker 8: a fire set at multiple locations simultaneous in the living
26:23
Speaker 8: room could have grown large enough to engulf the entire room,
26:26
Speaker 8: So it was beyond dispute that the living room did
26:29
Speaker 8: go to flashover, meaning that the entire room was engulfed
26:32
Speaker 8: in flames. But his theory was that only a deliberately
26:37
Speaker 8: set fire could have produced that result.
26:41
Speaker 2: And to further bolster this theory, the state brought in
26:44
Speaker 2: a jailhouse snitch. When Tim was in jail, he was
26:47
Speaker 2: placed next to a notorious informant named Hiram Church.
26:53
Speaker 8: Within a day or two of being in custody, mister
26:57
Speaker 8: Church claimed to have heard Tim kenfet to him, and
27:01
Speaker 8: then they were able to use the jail house snitch
27:03
Speaker 8: to tie it together. Because the jailhouse snitch said that
27:06
Speaker 8: Tim had admitted to him to using an ignitable liquid
27:09
Speaker 8: called goof off to start the fire, and zilenes are
27:13
Speaker 8: a primary ingredient of goof off.
27:16
Speaker 2: The state said that Tim put goof off, a household
27:19
Speaker 2: cleaning product all over the furniture and had the kids
27:22
Speaker 2: sit on it that evening. Then when the fire ignited,
27:25
Speaker 2: the children would already have the flammable substance on them them.
27:30
Speaker 8: And what was critical is that mister Church, the jail
27:32
Speaker 8: house informant, said not only that Tim had confessed, but
27:35
Speaker 8: that he had implicated Deb in the crime.
27:53
Speaker 2: The state also criticized Deb's behavior following her children's deaths.
27:58
Speaker 2: They called in an insurance adjuster to testify that when
28:01
Speaker 2: she showed up at their office, she had on a
28:03
Speaker 2: white tracksuit with freshly manicured nails, implying that she was
28:08
Speaker 2: dressed inappropriately for a bereft mother. The state relentlessly picked
28:13
Speaker 2: apart her grieving process.
28:15
Speaker 5: I get it because I didn't know how to do
28:18
Speaker 5: it either.
28:20
Speaker 8: I don't know.
28:21
Speaker 3: Things like that come in waves like you just can't
28:24
Speaker 3: you sob uncontrollably, and then you can't think for a
28:28
Speaker 3: sob or do anything for a while, and then it'll
28:31
Speaker 3: hit you and I don't know, It's like a cycle
28:34
Speaker 3: of denial and devastation.
28:38
Speaker 2: They also brought up the fact that Deb didn't attend
28:40
Speaker 2: her children's funeral. How come you didn't attend the funeral.
28:48
Speaker 3: I had lost my second son, Spencer, when he was
28:51
Speaker 3: three months old, and I had to have a funeral.
28:56
Speaker 3: It's a little tiny casket, and I barely made it
29:01
Speaker 3: through that. And I just I was trying to get
29:07
Speaker 3: ready to go to the funeral, and my body was
29:12
Speaker 3: breaking down and I was shaking so bad. And you know,
29:17
Speaker 3: my daughters loved to me get ready in the morning
29:20
Speaker 3: and they would be like, you know, mom, we went pretties.
29:23
Speaker 3: And I was trying to get ready for the funeral.
29:26
Speaker 3: But I just had to sit down and give in
29:29
Speaker 3: and surrender. I can't go. I can't do it. I
29:35
Speaker 3: didn't want to go to the funeral and have it
29:38
Speaker 3: be about me breaking down instead of people getting to
29:44
Speaker 3: say goodbye to my beautiful children. So I went and
29:50
Speaker 3: I sat out in the car until after the funeral,
29:55
Speaker 3: and then I went and I thank people for coming.
30:02
Speaker 5: I couldn't.
30:03
Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine seeing three, three caskets. It was too much.
30:10
Speaker 3: It was too much.
30:26
Speaker 2: Deb's defense attorneys were Deputy Public Defender Cindy Jones and
30:30
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Schwartz. They called multiple witnesses to refute the prosecution's
30:34
Speaker 2: idea that deb wasn't grieving properly, and as Anne Marie
30:39
Speaker 2: Moyeses explains, they also called in the prominent fire expert
30:44
Speaker 2: John Lntini.
30:45
Speaker 8: He disputed all of the prosecution's evidence and their interpretation
30:50
Speaker 8: of the evidence, but at the end of the day,
30:53
Speaker 8: it was his word against multiple experts on the prosecution side,
30:57
Speaker 8: and the prosecution did a pretty good job of characterizing
31:02
Speaker 8: Lentini as some sort of hired gun that the defense
31:05
Speaker 8: had paid. It wasn't a fair characterization, but it was
31:08
Speaker 8: a success. They were successful in portraying him that way.
31:13
Speaker 2: Over a month later, on November twenty fourth, two thousand
31:16
Speaker 2: and eight, Deb Nichols was convicted of three counts of
31:19
Speaker 2: first degree murder. She was sentenced to three consecutive life
31:23
Speaker 2: terms in prison. Deb has passed her time in prison
31:30
Speaker 2: trying to come to terms with what has happened in
31:32
Speaker 2: her life.
31:34
Speaker 3: I try to do the things that I know will help,
31:37
Speaker 3: like journaling and singing and working out and going to
31:43
Speaker 3: church at Red Rocks, God behind bars, and keeping my
31:47
Speaker 3: heart open so that I can feel that pure love
31:50
Speaker 3: with my children, and fighting to clear our names because
31:56
Speaker 3: we had nothing to do with that fire.
32:03
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, Kathleen Anne Marie and the Corey Wise
32:06
Speaker 2: Innocence Project joined experienced criminal defense lawyer Jeanine McCabe in
32:11
Speaker 2: taking on Deb's case.
32:14
Speaker 8: So the main thing that we've done is brought on
32:17
Speaker 8: new leading experts in fire science to explain the changes
32:21
Speaker 8: in fire science that have taken place since the time
32:23
Speaker 8: of trial.
32:25
Speaker 2: And not only that, in the time since the trial happened,
32:28
Speaker 2: the state's expert John Dehn has been discredited.
32:32
Speaker 8: He for many years was considered one of the leading
32:36
Speaker 8: experts in fire science in this country. But what we
32:39
Speaker 8: know now is that he acted unethically in other cases,
32:43
Speaker 8: and in fact, the American Association of Forensic Science voted
32:47
Speaker 8: to expel him from membership because of that unethical conduct.
32:51
Speaker 2: Dehn, who passed away in twenty twenty two, continued to
32:55
Speaker 2: stand by his testimony. This is him speaking in twenty
32:58
Speaker 2: nineteen about the case.
33:00
Speaker 9: I've re examined the data and the findings a number
33:04
Speaker 9: of times over the years, and I still hold to
33:09
Speaker 9: my conclusions expressed in the Tim nichols A trial as
33:13
Speaker 9: well as Deborah Nichols that fire was deliberately started in
33:18
Speaker 9: the living room of the residents.
33:21
Speaker 2: However, the science to Han was touting has also been discredited.
33:26
Speaker 2: The defensive trial expert John Lentini, also maintains his trial
33:30
Speaker 2: testimony and emphasizes these changes in science. To this day,
33:34
Speaker 2: he defends Debra's innocence.
33:38
Speaker 10: It's not up to Timothy or Deborah to prove what
33:43
Speaker 10: caused that fire. What we have learned about the behavior
33:46
Speaker 10: of fire since the Nickels fire is that the patterns
33:51
Speaker 10: that we read after a big fire like this are
33:54
Speaker 10: not reliable evidence.
33:57
Speaker 8: We can now say definitively that the sample that were
34:00
Speaker 8: taken from the Nichols living room show that they were
34:03
Speaker 8: just the natural byproduct of the fire, that they did
34:06
Speaker 8: not come from an ignitable liquid. So there's absolutely no
34:10
Speaker 8: evidence anymore that there was an ignitable liquid present at
34:13
Speaker 8: the fire scene, and that new science just exposes the
34:17
Speaker 8: prosecution's case for what it is, which is just a
34:20
Speaker 8: house of cars that just doesn't stand up under any
34:23
Speaker 8: sort of inspection.
34:25
Speaker 2: The jailhouse informant Hiram Church has also been discredited.
34:29
Speaker 8: We see that in cases of wrongful convictions that sometimes
34:33
Speaker 8: when these jailhouse informants are used, what we find out
34:36
Speaker 8: about their history is that they miraculously have heard confessions
34:39
Speaker 8: in a number of other high profile murder cases, and
34:42
Speaker 8: that was true of mister Church.
34:44
Speaker 2: The Corey Wise Innocence Project submitted a motion for a
34:47
Speaker 2: new hearing to the courts in October of twenty twenty two.
34:51
Speaker 2: If accepted, there will be an evidentiary hearing where Deb
34:54
Speaker 2: can present this evidence to the court. In the meantime,
34:58
Speaker 2: she tries to keep healthy and stay in touch with
35:00
Speaker 2: the family she has left. Although Deb and Tim are divorced,
35:04
Speaker 2: they've remained friends and write letters to each other in prison.
35:10
Speaker 3: We're both just trying to grieve and heal and get
35:14
Speaker 3: our names cleared and get the truth out and take
35:18
Speaker 3: it day by day. At this point, it's hard to
35:24
Speaker 3: talk about trauma. It's hard to talk about losing my babies.
35:34
Speaker 3: But I was just hoping that people, especially women that
35:39
Speaker 3: get wrongly convicted, can find some type of strength, see
35:47
Speaker 3: it through it and keep fighting.
35:53
Speaker 2: Deb thinks back to the night of the fire, often
35:55
Speaker 2: remembering her kid's rambunctious energy at bedtime. Now she thinks
35:59
Speaker 2: of that night in a new way.
36:03
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that I got to put him back
36:05
Speaker 3: to bed four or five times, because I didn't realize
36:10
Speaker 3: that would be the last time I got to kiss
36:12
Speaker 3: him good night. And I'm really really grateful I got
36:17
Speaker 3: a bunch of exter kisses him that night.
36:27
Speaker 2: If you want to help deb and the Corey Wise
36:29
Speaker 2: Innocence Project. Go to the links in our bio. Next time,
36:38
Speaker 2: un Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, Ashley Jordan he was
36:43
Speaker 2: about to say he did it just so I can
36:46
Speaker 2: go home and won't go to jail.
36:47
Speaker 7: And I looked at him and I grabbed his hand
36:49
Speaker 7: and I said, no, you're not. You will not lie
36:53
Speaker 7: for these people, I said, because we didn't do anything wrong.
37:00
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please
37:03
Speaker 2: support your local innocence organizations and go to the links
37:06
Speaker 2: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd
37:08
Speaker 2: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wordis,
37:12
Speaker 2: as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Lyla Robinson,
37:16
Speaker 2: and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and
37:19
Speaker 2: mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by Jeff Cliburn
37:23
Speaker 2: and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by
37:26
Speaker 2: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. The news clips
37:30
Speaker 2: heard in this episode were reported by Laura Martin at KKTV.
37:36
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
37:39
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter at
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Speaker 2: Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
37:46
Speaker 2: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
37:49
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37:53
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Speaker 2: association with Signal Company Number one
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Speaker 7: Bo