Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Shocking new claims about Natalee Holloway's fate

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Shocking new claims about Natalee Holloway's fate · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes, her car, gets out
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Speaker 1: and vanishes. Everybody has the theory. Was she murdered? Was
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Speaker 1: it a suicide? Did you run away? Join the search
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Speaker 1: as an investigative reporter and former US Marshall uncovered new evidence,
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Speaker 1: interrogate new witnesses, trace down new leeds, and this riveting
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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray and starts Saturday,
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Speaker 1: September eight, fift pm, seven fifteen Central on Oxygen, the
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Speaker 1: new network for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on
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Speaker 1: Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two, two thousand five,
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Speaker 1: On the Small Island of a Rubot, Natalie Hollowayd was
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Speaker 1: with friends at a local bar where she was last
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Speaker 1: seen getting a ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains
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Speaker 1: a mystery. Her dad says that he in a private
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Speaker 1: eye found human and remains in We took them remains
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Speaker 1: and had them remains test it and then just returned
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Speaker 1: last week. That's her human remains. Will they be able
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Speaker 1: to be some kind of test ave? That will be
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Speaker 1: answer once and for all, whether this is Natalie. We're
1:13
Speaker 1: in the process of doing a DNA test. Dave Holloway
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Speaker 1: says that a friend of a man who was once
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Speaker 1: suspected in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that
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Speaker 1: there's a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm
1:24
Speaker 1: just trying to wait and see the story of Alabama teen,
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Speaker 1: the high school beauty and honor student who already has
1:35
Speaker 1: a scholarship to college goes on and it seems as
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Speaker 1: if with every twist and turn, the news gets worse
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Speaker 1: about the missing girl. I cannot even imagine her parents
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Speaker 1: just before she graduates high school. They're in the Mountain
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Speaker 1: Brook area of Alabama. She goes on her high school
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Speaker 1: senior trip. They never see her alive again. Thanks too
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Speaker 1: in my mind and a Reuben Judge's son your Vander salute.
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Speaker 1: I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
2:11
Speaker 1: being with us. The very latest wrinkle is almost too
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Speaker 1: much to believe. And with me is investigative reporter multiple
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Speaker 1: winner of Emmy Awards, Art Harris, along with forensic expert
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Speaker 1: and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Art Harris, the latest is almost more than I can
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Speaker 1: even repeat. Tell me what's happening now, aren't Harris? Nancy
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Speaker 1: the best friend of your vandor slut takes his sources
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Speaker 1: to a place where he says Natalie's skull and bones
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Speaker 1: were crushed and burned to get rid of her hair fibers,
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Speaker 1: doused with gasoline and a fire pit in a cave,
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Speaker 1: and then after that they pounded the bones to reduce
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Speaker 1: them to disposable remains. It's almost more than I can
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Speaker 1: take in with me. Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert, allegations
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Speaker 1: at the skull of this beautiful girl. Her skull, the
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Speaker 1: girl who disappeared offer high school senior trip was burned
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Speaker 1: in a cave in a Ruba. After you're in vander
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Speaker 1: Salute pays the friend to dig up her remains for
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Speaker 1: fift hundred dollars. They then go to a cave in
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Speaker 1: a Ruba and pound her remains, her bones into dust
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Speaker 1: and try to burn it. Joe Scott, is that possible
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Speaker 1: to a certain degree? Is it is? Nancy? Thing about
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Speaker 1: burning bone is that? Uh, It's very difficult to burn.
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Speaker 1: You have to have intense heat and you have to
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Speaker 1: burn for a portray acted period. One of the things
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Speaker 1: they're not taking into account here is what element is
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Speaker 1: contained within the skull that are not bone and that
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Speaker 1: are that that's human teeth and so um. From an
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Speaker 1: evidentry standpoint for us in forensic science, the teeth are
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Speaker 1: going to be much more valuable than the skull itself.
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Speaker 1: So you're saying that teeth do not burn. They do burn, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: but the uh, the amount of heat that it requires
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Speaker 1: is almost increased by a factor of two when compared
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Speaker 1: to bone. Okay, Um, bone is very fragile compared to teeth.
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Speaker 1: So if they can recover teeth in this alleged area
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Speaker 1: where this occurred, that's going to be Um, it'll be
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Speaker 1: a monumental piece of ovidends here. Well, they were crushing,
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Speaker 1: I mean, beating, pounding on decimating her bones. I would
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Speaker 1: be surprised if they didn't destroy her teeth too. But
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Speaker 1: I think you're right from an anecdotal point of you,
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott more gonna because when I first started covering
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Speaker 1: the Stephen Avery case with Teresa Halbach, the photographer, and
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Speaker 1: this you know, became famous, not when I covered it
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Speaker 1: as a missing person and then a homicide investigation. But
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Speaker 1: when was it Netflix or HBO didn't making a murder? Oh,
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Speaker 1: Jackie say Netflix did making a murderer. Um, it became famous.
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Speaker 1: Then he Stephen Avery sat outside and stirred a fire
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Speaker 1: pit himself all through the night. We now know burning
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Speaker 1: Teresa Hallback's remains and what cops could find Joe Scott
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Speaker 1: were bits of her bones, her teeth, and the studs
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Speaker 1: off the back of her Daisy fointest blue jeans, So
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Speaker 1: her teeth survived. I guess you'd have to have a
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Speaker 1: crematory grade heat in order to to burn teeth. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 1: we we We'd be looking at at a sustained heat
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Speaker 1: level of in excess of about degrees fare and height.
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Speaker 1: And that's got to be sustained and so it takes
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Speaker 1: um you know, even not to get too graphic, but
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Speaker 1: when you think about ceremonial cre cremations that take place
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Speaker 1: in certain cultures, Uh, they have to have people that
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Speaker 1: tend these fires for days and days on end. Now,
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Speaker 1: if you have access to a crematory, which very very
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Speaker 1: few people do, um, it would it would facilitate this
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Speaker 1: a lot quicker. And uh, the the level of heat
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Speaker 1: is very intense, intense and this very contained area. This
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Speaker 1: is not what we're talking about. We're talking about going
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Speaker 1: into a hole in the ground that was big enough
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Speaker 1: for a couple of people to fit in. And then
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Speaker 1: they have to have a fuel source. They have to
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Speaker 1: have It's not just gash, you know, they're talking about
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Speaker 1: we poured gas on it to get rid of hair
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Speaker 1: and fiber. Okay, good for you, But did you have
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Speaker 1: like wood to fire this? Did you have kindling to
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Speaker 1: sustain it? Did you? Did you think about these things?
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Speaker 1: And in most of these cases, perpetrators do not think
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Speaker 1: of all of the little addenda that go along with
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Speaker 1: these proceeds. What we are learning right now is Art Harris,
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Speaker 1: investigative reporter, has just revealed apparently the skull of an
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Speaker 1: Alabama teen girl who vanishes on her high school senior
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Speaker 1: trip to Aruba. The skull, according to a confidential informant,
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Speaker 1: was destroyed in the sense that Journed Van der Sloot,
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Speaker 1: the judge's son, tried to destroy all of Natalie Holloway's
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Speaker 1: bones by beating and pulverizing them and then tried to
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Speaker 1: set them on fire. But according to the informant quote,
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Speaker 1: the only thing that got burned was the skull, got
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Speaker 1: that to burn and the hair fibers. It was dousked
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Speaker 1: in gasoline in a fire pit in a cave. The
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Speaker 1: only thing that got burned was the skull to burn
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Speaker 1: the hair fibers. Those are his words, not mine. What
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Speaker 1: does that mean, aren't Harris? Is he saying that the
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Speaker 1: skull didn't burn just the hair? What is he trying
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Speaker 1: to say? Yeah, there was a hair and skin apparently
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Speaker 1: that was burned doubts with gasoline. As you mentioned, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: this is what the informant is saying. Uh in your
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Speaker 1: En and m did together. But it means that there
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Speaker 1: are still some bones left over. They were able to
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Speaker 1: get enough bone fragments to do this DNA testing that
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Speaker 1: is ongoing and as yet to be revealed. What we
8:43
Speaker 1: need to hold on just a moment. I want you
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Speaker 1: to hear this. Take a listen to former APD Atlanta
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Speaker 1: Police Department officer T. J. Ward as he is interrogating
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Speaker 1: the informant. As the informant describes trying to destroy now
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Speaker 1: Elie's bones. Listen, where did you take it? Where do
9:04
Speaker 1: you take a remas? Do not want to be so
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Speaker 1: your rats cross. We originally was he had discussed beting
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Speaker 1: a cremated, but at that time it wasn't legal. But
9:15
Speaker 1: apparently some paces we do it for pets. And what
9:19
Speaker 1: did you do? The idea was to crush everything to
9:23
Speaker 1: the point where it's not recognized for was arm, bones
9:27
Speaker 1: or skull or anything like that? Did you do someone
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Speaker 1: with remain before you broke from up? Or did did
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Speaker 1: you do something remain after you broke from up? Did
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Speaker 1: you bone them? The only thing I've got barn was
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Speaker 1: the the skull. To learn the hill fighters, it was
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Speaker 1: doused in gastonine and fire. Opinion cave to Joe's got Morgan, Joe,
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Speaker 1: let me ask you this. When they're saying the only
9:54
Speaker 1: thing that burned was her hair, that meant that that
9:57
Speaker 1: means they had to pulverize the bones. Is that possible
10:02
Speaker 1: manually to pulverize the bones to a point that you
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Speaker 1: can no longer extract DNA? I find that hard to believe. Uh,
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Speaker 1: with the with the means that they would have at
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Speaker 1: their hand, Uh, it wouldn't be possible to completely pulverize
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Speaker 1: the bone. Now, I think the question is how degraded
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Speaker 1: the sample would be that they could get out of
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Speaker 1: the burned bone. Would it compromise it to the point
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Speaker 1: where where they where the scientists still couldn't extract DNA
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Speaker 1: from that bone. That again, UH circles back to the
10:36
Speaker 1: idea of the teeth. If those teeth are intact, Uh,
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Speaker 1: would it be possible to go into the tooth and
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Speaker 1: go into the layer what's referred to as the pulp,
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Speaker 1: which is one of the elements of the teeth, and
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Speaker 1: extract the DNA from there. And I think that that's
10:51
Speaker 1: going to be the key in this case. Um, the
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Speaker 1: density of the bone that you have, say, for instance,
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Speaker 1: in the skull, is not the same as we have
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Speaker 1: like in a long bone, like in the femur or
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Speaker 1: the humorous where you have this this um high concentration
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Speaker 1: of what we referred to as compact bone. That's that's
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Speaker 1: where we actually get this partial DNA from that we
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Speaker 1: create the strand with UM and look for the markers
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Speaker 1: that we have to look for. So UM again, I
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Speaker 1: think that it would be really difficult and incrematories. The
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Speaker 1: public doesn't know this. Most of the time, after a
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Speaker 1: body is burned, Okay, after the body is cremated, it
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Speaker 1: goes down. Uh. It actually travels along a track conveyor belt,
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Speaker 1: if you will, and it goes through a crusher at
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Speaker 1: the end um that's a large spinning wheel, and it
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Speaker 1: crushes the bone, pulpifies it down to a point where
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Speaker 1: it turns into almost particulate dust. It has the consistency.
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Speaker 1: It's not quite as fine as talk, but you can
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Speaker 1: look at it and say more than likely, it's consistent
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Speaker 1: with very coarse sand. Okay, once again, our heart go
12:00
Speaker 1: out to the family of Natalie Holloway as more words
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Speaker 1: from the despicable You're in Vandor Slute emerge, their wounds
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Speaker 1: being reopened like salt in the wounds about claims now
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Speaker 1: from a confidential informant, a friend of your in vander Salute, that,
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Speaker 1: following her horrific murder far away from her family on
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Speaker 1: a high school senior trip in a Ruba, she is
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Speaker 1: then buried, dug up, and her bones her remains taken
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Speaker 1: to some obscure cave in Ruba where You're in Vanderslute
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Speaker 1: diabolically tries to crush and destroy her bones, tries to
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Speaker 1: burn them so she can never be recognized. That's what
13:00
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14:10
Speaker 1: as I was thanking our partner, aren't Harris says, there's
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Speaker 1: a twist. Okay, what's the twist? Mancy? The bones were
14:19
Speaker 1: not They were not able to crush them totally and
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Speaker 1: get rid of them. So the the investigators T J.
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Speaker 1: Ward and the informant were able to provide a couple
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Speaker 1: of small pieces that were not crushed to be analyzed,
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Speaker 1: and they've been turned over to a top DNA analysts.
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Speaker 1: Who's you running them in the lad as we speak?
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Speaker 1: And the results have yet to be determined. Let's talk
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Speaker 1: about how they got those uh tiny bits of bone?
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Speaker 1: How did that happen? Aren't Harris with me Emmy Award
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Speaker 1: winning Reporter art. How did they manage after all this
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Speaker 1: time time to locate basically a little more than talcolm dust?
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Speaker 1: How did they get it after all this time? Well,
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Speaker 1: this source has has revealed the spot where he and
15:14
Speaker 1: you're in buried the bones after they crushed what they
15:19
Speaker 1: could and be quickly could into into small pieces in
15:23
Speaker 1: a burlap bag that was wrapped in a tarp. That
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Speaker 1: tarp came from Paulice, uh, the father's house, And suddenly
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Speaker 1: they dig this up and they were able to find
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Speaker 1: enough remains there so that it was not just dust
15:41
Speaker 1: that they they turned over. But they aren't. Can you
15:45
Speaker 1: back up a moment. Everybody's been talking about the fact
15:48
Speaker 1: that they crushed her remains and tried to burn them.
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Speaker 1: Now hold on, say that a little bit more slowly
15:54
Speaker 1: for me. Aren't you're saying that after this cave incident
15:59
Speaker 1: where the judge's son, yourn vander Slut tries to Actually
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Speaker 1: he pays somebody fifteen under bucks to go dig up
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Speaker 1: Natalie's body. They bring it to a cave where he
16:09
Speaker 1: tries to crush there. I assume there was no soft
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Speaker 1: tissue left. She was skeletonized, so they try to pulverize
16:18
Speaker 1: the bones and burn them. Now, what happened to the remains?
16:23
Speaker 1: Then say that again for me slowly, Nancy. They were
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Speaker 1: not able to destroy them totally, and the informant was
16:31
Speaker 1: able to identify a spot where enough bone was recovered
16:36
Speaker 1: to be analyzed. The question is how well it was analyzed.
16:42
Speaker 1: Art Harris Justice got Morgan and Alan Duke take a listen.
16:45
Speaker 1: I want you to hear Dave Holloway. This is Natalie's
16:48
Speaker 1: dad talking about having handed their findings over to a
16:54
Speaker 1: Ruben police. Now, I would not trust a Reuben police
16:56
Speaker 1: as far as I can throw them, you know, because
16:59
Speaker 1: they protect this judge's son from the get go. And
17:03
Speaker 1: police actually called back and claim they're going to the
17:07
Speaker 1: suspected location. This is leading up to the excavation of
17:13
Speaker 1: the remains of Natalie Holloway. Listen. So how field day.
17:17
Speaker 1: I thought it was a very good meeting, and I
17:19
Speaker 1: think they were excited and we're all kind of excited
17:22
Speaker 1: that um you know this, Um Mike go down, and
17:28
Speaker 1: I mean he was real receptive, and I mean I
17:30
Speaker 1: felt real good about it. The balls in their court
17:33
Speaker 1: and we we shared with them for three hours this
17:36
Speaker 1: morning and turned turned that notebook over to them. Plus
17:39
Speaker 1: all what we've did since we've been here, and we
17:42
Speaker 1: have handed not only the informant but the parties involved
17:46
Speaker 1: for them on a silver platterer and hopes that law
17:49
Speaker 1: enforcement will take action and move quickly with a lot
17:53
Speaker 1: of credible evidence. Yeah, it up, that's what you know.
18:01
Speaker 1: Can I can we meet you there? Okay, I'm gonna
18:05
Speaker 1: take about maybe in half an hour, all right, Why
18:10
Speaker 1: don't we meet you there at five at the Big
18:12
Speaker 1: White House. It's right there in that coverside. All right.
18:15
Speaker 1: We have a special team here so we can have
18:18
Speaker 1: them search devote area. We'll see you know, about forty
18:22
Speaker 1: five minutes. All right, Okay, all right, thank you sir.
18:25
Speaker 1: This might be it then. I mean, if Faith can
18:27
Speaker 1: come in and start excavating, we'll see. Aren't the burrow
18:32
Speaker 1: at bag in the tarp? That's what I want to
18:34
Speaker 1: hear about. Where was that? And how did we find
18:36
Speaker 1: out about it the leftover remains Nancy were buried by
18:41
Speaker 1: this informant best friend of your hands, and he describes
18:45
Speaker 1: this in an undercover sting with t J. Ward and
18:49
Speaker 1: his best friend we see on the Auxten Special leads
18:52
Speaker 1: them to a spot and they turned that information over
18:56
Speaker 1: to the police. The police actually sinned, as you've said,
19:00
Speaker 1: their own crime scene investigators to excavate the site and
19:04
Speaker 1: recover enough bones from from the site to be analyzed
19:10
Speaker 1: by this DNA expert back in the state. So do
19:14
Speaker 1: you understand what he's saying, Joe Scott Morgan That they
19:17
Speaker 1: actually go to Paul's manor Sluts home and they find
19:21
Speaker 1: the remains in a tarp in a burlapp bag. Is
19:24
Speaker 1: that what you said? Are they he led them to
19:26
Speaker 1: where they had left the remains that were not uh,
19:32
Speaker 1: you know, in the pit or in the spot where
19:34
Speaker 1: they were initially buried. Where they at Paul's's house. We
19:37
Speaker 1: find out that the informant admits to lying about certain
19:41
Speaker 1: things along the way. Finally he tells them that they
19:44
Speaker 1: are hidden in police's house and they go and find
19:50
Speaker 1: part of the remains from the burlap bag at that place. Well,
19:55
Speaker 1: this is what I don't get Joe Scott Morgan helped
19:57
Speaker 1: me out on this. The mom, I guess is still
20:00
Speaker 1: living there. I mean Vanderslout gave his dad, the judge,
20:03
Speaker 1: Paul's Vanderslut, a heart attack. He dropped dead, I think,
20:07
Speaker 1: on a tennis court in the midst of all this.
20:10
Speaker 1: So how do they not know there's some a dead
20:13
Speaker 1: girl's bones in the house. I have no idea. I'm
20:16
Speaker 1: I'm shocked as anybody by this. Uh. As a matter
20:19
Speaker 1: of fact, UH, from a scientific standpoint, I'd be far
20:23
Speaker 1: more interested at this point, uh in these remains that
20:28
Speaker 1: they have allegedly found at the house. Because let's keep
20:32
Speaker 1: in mind, if they are in a protected area, they
20:34
Speaker 1: will not have been exposed to to this harsh environment
20:37
Speaker 1: out there. They won't have been buried. I don't know
20:39
Speaker 1: where they found them, they're saying they found them, and
20:41
Speaker 1: I don't know what condition they're in. But what we
20:45
Speaker 1: could do is have those bones examined and find out
20:49
Speaker 1: who they belonged to, at least get get some kind
20:52
Speaker 1: of of racial profiling of the of the remainders. And
20:55
Speaker 1: a minute, we we already have some indication of it.
20:59
Speaker 1: But what I'm trying to say, Alan, maybe I'm not
21:01
Speaker 1: being clear, Okay, Alan, Duke, They've gotten remains from somewhere, Alan,
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Speaker 1: Because there is a renowned doctor on the case called Kowski,
21:14
Speaker 1: who worked ground zero at nine one one and started
21:19
Speaker 1: a forensics arm, a lab of sorts at a college
21:24
Speaker 1: in New York. He is no idiot, okay, And he
21:29
Speaker 1: says these remains are of a girl, a lady of
21:35
Speaker 1: Eastern European descent. So, um, Joe's got Morgan. I've been
21:39
Speaker 1: told that it's going to take a long time, several
21:44
Speaker 1: weeks before we've got the answer because from these destroyed remains,
21:49
Speaker 1: he's got to extract DNA. Does that make sense to you? No,
21:53
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Why because it doesn't take that long to
21:58
Speaker 1: examine bone for DNA. What if it's ground up bone
22:01
Speaker 1: and you have to extract the DNA from it, still
22:04
Speaker 1: not going to take that interesting. This has been This
22:07
Speaker 1: has been repeated over and over and over again. It
22:11
Speaker 1: does not take this long to test bone. And plus
22:15
Speaker 1: he's already stated that he has identified these bones as
22:21
Speaker 1: being of European extraction, he already has the information beyond that.
22:27
Speaker 1: You don't stop at that point and then say, well
22:30
Speaker 1: it's going to take a little while for us to
22:32
Speaker 1: go forward from here. It doesn't take I have no
22:34
Speaker 1: reason to doubt Kolkowski. Um, take a listen to this, Nancy.
22:40
Speaker 1: Let's listen to as part of your interview recently with Gabriel,
22:44
Speaker 1: the informant, the one who made it all happen, who
22:47
Speaker 1: led t. J. Ward and Dave Holloway to Aruba and
22:51
Speaker 1: to this source who eventually led them to the grave
22:53
Speaker 1: that is now believed to have been Natalie Holloway's. To Gabriel,
22:57
Speaker 1: who's at the central of all this. Gabriel, what bones
23:01
Speaker 1: do you believe that they are examining? Because it's been
23:04
Speaker 1: made very clear US expert is looking at bones brought
23:09
Speaker 1: in from Aruba. So if something was cremated, what is
23:13
Speaker 1: there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um, he
23:17
Speaker 1: said many stories as we were we were doing the
23:21
Speaker 1: the the investigation. And uh, I cannot say, because there's
23:27
Speaker 1: a twist to all this. It could be true, it
23:30
Speaker 1: could be a lie, but there's a twist to everything,
23:33
Speaker 1: so I can't really. I have to keep you guys
23:36
Speaker 1: in this question. To you, Gabriel, from what you learned
23:40
Speaker 1: through John, what have you learned about who is your
23:45
Speaker 1: vander Slute. What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's
23:49
Speaker 1: a social path, He's a popolos, a liar. He basically
23:54
Speaker 1: thinks about himself and if he could be on TV
23:56
Speaker 1: and be in the spotlight, that's what he wants. What
24:00
Speaker 1: I have learned from from John. How do you think
24:02
Speaker 1: he is holding up now? Is he's still in connection
24:08
Speaker 1: in contact with John because he's in Peru now Vandersluce
24:12
Speaker 1: in Peru. As far as side, No, no, John has not.
24:18
Speaker 1: He said the last time that John wrote him a
24:20
Speaker 1: letter was back in two let's see two, and has
24:26
Speaker 1: not written to him since then, because I guess they
24:28
Speaker 1: were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that
24:33
Speaker 1: your Vanderslute's father, Paul Is Vanderslute, the judge he was
24:37
Speaker 1: now dead, was covering up for his son. Oh definitely.
24:41
Speaker 1: There is something else that does that. Not even a
24:45
Speaker 1: documentary people have of material that how it came to be,
24:51
Speaker 1: where Natalie was placed to her place to rest for
24:55
Speaker 1: the very first time? Where was she at? And they
24:58
Speaker 1: don't even have the material. I try to tell him,
25:00
Speaker 1: but they don't listen to me. Well, where where was it?
25:03
Speaker 1: I cannot say it right now due to my lawyer.
25:06
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't disclose that right now. I understand,
25:09
Speaker 1: I understand, But this way, I'm just gonna give you
25:10
Speaker 1: a little hint. Paula's had a best friend in Holland
25:15
Speaker 1: that had they had a property. Paula's knew it very well,
25:21
Speaker 1: that property, very very well. And that's all I can
25:25
Speaker 1: tell you for now. What was it like to be
25:28
Speaker 1: working undercover trying to crack this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly,
25:35
Speaker 1: Nancy Um, I'm not you know, I'm not a cop,
25:38
Speaker 1: I'm not an investigator, and none of this God gave
25:42
Speaker 1: me the will and it was very, very frustrating. It's like, uh,
25:49
Speaker 1: handling a five year old childhood tantrums day by day.
25:53
Speaker 1: It was very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has
25:58
Speaker 1: I mean, if you were locked in with him, you
26:00
Speaker 1: were finally strangling because there's no way. And I had
26:03
Speaker 1: to take all that crap. I had to grow thick
26:05
Speaker 1: skin in order to get the information I needed to
26:09
Speaker 1: solve this. How long did it take you, Gabriel Um?
26:16
Speaker 1: Approximately almost five years mm hmm, because I started in
26:20
Speaker 1: slow to get in him. Once I was in, and
26:23
Speaker 1: at the end I pushed hard, and I got what
26:25
Speaker 1: I wanted. I was almost there, almost there when everybody
26:30
Speaker 1: gave up but me, and I said, no, no, I'm
26:35
Speaker 1: not gonna let this go. I know he's there and
26:38
Speaker 1: I know, and something remarkable happened, and there the second
26:43
Speaker 1: week of April, and I went back when everybody gave up,
26:47
Speaker 1: I went back and it was exactly the spot where
26:51
Speaker 1: I kind of had a general idea and everybody was
26:54
Speaker 1: blown the way. The one that was blown away the most,
26:56
Speaker 1: which he had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember
27:00
Speaker 1: calling him and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes,
27:03
Speaker 1: you gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells
27:07
Speaker 1: me called Chief Vichinson. So I did, gives me the number.
27:11
Speaker 1: I called him, and I said, I want to meet you.
27:13
Speaker 1: I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But
27:18
Speaker 1: when I met him, he goes, you want to know something.
27:20
Speaker 1: I go what. He goes teaching work, called me to
27:22
Speaker 1: put you in jail. I go for what he goes
27:24
Speaker 1: for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not
27:27
Speaker 1: gonna do that. Can you take me where you where
27:29
Speaker 1: you found remains? I go yes, So we go back there.
27:32
Speaker 1: They check the area out and then they leave and
27:36
Speaker 1: I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you
27:40
Speaker 1: one thing. When we were outside the hotel when they
27:43
Speaker 1: seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people,
27:46
Speaker 1: They're like, he virts, asks him is this human? And
27:51
Speaker 1: they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There
27:53
Speaker 1: was a piece of a skull and other pieces which
27:57
Speaker 1: I don't want to say. According to day Ave Holloway
28:01
Speaker 1: and the US medical doctor expert, human remains were found
28:08
Speaker 1: and the doctor is analyzing them and extracting DNA from them.
28:13
Speaker 1: They are human remains belonging to a female. So, Gabriel,
28:19
Speaker 1: how does it work? How could there be bones and
28:23
Speaker 1: this cremation story? Well, Nancy, it's very simple. If you
28:29
Speaker 1: cream me something, you're not gonna have bones. So the
28:32
Speaker 1: other option is it never got created. That is simple answer,
28:37
Speaker 1: but it's part of the documentary. I cannot says. It's
28:41
Speaker 1: a big twist. I hear you. I mean they That's
28:43
Speaker 1: what I was just saying, and you said it very succinctly.
28:46
Speaker 1: They can't both be true. Someone may have been mixed
28:51
Speaker 1: with a dog at a crematory. Bones may have been
28:55
Speaker 1: taken and moved but they can't be the same thing. Now,
29:01
Speaker 1: are you have a bombshell? What have you learned from
29:04
Speaker 1: your sources? Aren't Harris? And I think what I'm learning
29:08
Speaker 1: is that initial tests were inconclusive because the tests came
29:13
Speaker 1: from a mixture of the bones that were pulverized, and
29:18
Speaker 1: to do a better test you need to test individual bones.
29:22
Speaker 1: And actually they're doing that now, Nancy. So they're running
29:25
Speaker 1: more tests on more bones that I have learned from
29:30
Speaker 1: a source. So are you saying that there are bones
29:33
Speaker 1: in two locations? Is that what you're saying is that
29:37
Speaker 1: the bombshell their bones in two locations. What I'm saying,
29:40
Speaker 1: math is that they had a certain amount of bones
29:44
Speaker 1: to test. Some were crushed and tested together. They have
29:49
Speaker 1: a couple of remaining pieces they're now testing individually to
29:53
Speaker 1: see if they can get a more definitive DNA match
29:57
Speaker 1: to be able to say this is Natalie. Is they
30:00
Speaker 1: have narrowed it to a woman of Eastern European descent
30:04
Speaker 1: in that age category, and now they're trying to zero
30:07
Speaker 1: in to give the father the closures. They have more
30:11
Speaker 1: bones to test. They tested initially bones that were mixed
30:16
Speaker 1: together that didn't necessarily give a definitive answer that would
30:21
Speaker 1: conform to what Joe Scott Morgan is saying that they
30:24
Speaker 1: had enough time. They did, but they didn't have the
30:27
Speaker 1: best samples to declare that what they are finding or
30:32
Speaker 1: would find is a bona fide and respected result. Natalie
30:36
Speaker 1: Holloway was on her high school trip in Aruba when
30:40
Speaker 1: she went missing, and it was five years to the
30:44
Speaker 1: day that another young woman was murdered by yourn vander Salute,
30:48
Speaker 1: Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He is now behind bars in Peru
30:54
Speaker 1: on that murder. But the reality is that being behind
30:58
Speaker 1: bars has been a cake walk for yourn Vanderslute. He
31:01
Speaker 1: has gotten ahold of alcohol, reported drugs, and even fathered
31:07
Speaker 1: a baby from behind prison walls. So with that in mind,
31:15
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, if this pans out to be true,
31:19
Speaker 1: would he be returned to a Ruba for prosecution if
31:25
Speaker 1: the a Reuben authorities have the will to move forward.
31:30
Speaker 1: My thought is is that, uh, if this is going
31:34
Speaker 1: to be this crucial piece of evidence could potentially be
31:38
Speaker 1: used as legal leverage by our US State Department to
31:42
Speaker 1: compel the Auruban authorities to get off of their Reari
31:46
Speaker 1: ends and do something about this case, which to this
31:49
Speaker 1: point the kind of failed to do. We know that
31:53
Speaker 1: the informant Ludwick previously said Vanderslout paid in fift bucks
31:59
Speaker 1: to pick up, not dig up. Now they's remains near
32:02
Speaker 1: a residential property in Aruba. Okay, that's got to be
32:09
Speaker 1: the police vander Salute home or a friend of police
32:13
Speaker 1: vander Salutes. Alan Duke. I was also told that the
32:17
Speaker 1: remains were buried on the property of a friend of
32:20
Speaker 1: Paulice vander Slutz. Now that is inconsistent with finding the
32:24
Speaker 1: remains in vander slutz family home. What do we know?
32:29
Speaker 1: I think the problem is that there are sources that
32:33
Speaker 1: cannot be revealed. Now there's some confidential outlets come out
32:36
Speaker 1: Nancy that the remains were found near his house at
32:42
Speaker 1: a relatives property. And they are testing, you know, now
32:48
Speaker 1: a new samples because the first ones came back undetermined,
32:57
Speaker 1: and they know they have confidence that they're going to
33:01
Speaker 1: get a good result from individual pieces of bone that
33:05
Speaker 1: they did not test that way initially. You know, when
33:09
Speaker 1: you hear that Joe Scott Morgan that they're now going
33:13
Speaker 1: on that's a huge bombshell that they're going on to
33:16
Speaker 1: another test that the first one was indeterminate because now
33:20
Speaker 1: they have more of a bone. Is that putting the
33:25
Speaker 1: puzzle together for you, Joe Scott? Yeah, it kind of
33:28
Speaker 1: brings it into into clear focus. And just let me
33:31
Speaker 1: expand on this just a little bit. When you've got
33:33
Speaker 1: this pulpified bone that has been crushed, albeit probably at
33:38
Speaker 1: a very rudimentary level, it's still going to be what
33:41
Speaker 1: we refer to in forensics as being a commingled sample.
33:45
Speaker 1: That means that you know, we talked about dog bones
33:48
Speaker 1: and all this other stuff. If they are commingled with
33:51
Speaker 1: these other remains, that's gonna be problematic if the thing
33:54
Speaker 1: is pulpified and commingled. If you think about a bone
33:57
Speaker 1: as an individual little case that's carrying sensitive information, like
34:03
Speaker 1: a briefcase, for instance, and that briefcase has not been
34:07
Speaker 1: broken open, all right, it's still got the sensitive information
34:11
Speaker 1: in it. That is going to be a much that's
34:13
Speaker 1: gonna have a higher likelihood of containing viable DNA sample
34:18
Speaker 1: as opposed to something that has been put under pressure
34:21
Speaker 1: and crushed. So yeah, I'm gonna be really interested if
34:23
Speaker 1: they are in fact running a second test. Another thing
34:27
Speaker 1: that we have to consider here from a legal standpoint
34:30
Speaker 1: is the provenance of the evidence. Where did this come from?
34:35
Speaker 1: Are we talking about a couple of different sites here?
34:38
Speaker 1: Are we talking about somebody that that's some creep that's
34:41
Speaker 1: holding on too remains of some deceased person, uh and
34:44
Speaker 1: they're storing them back. Or here's a big one. There
34:47
Speaker 1: are other missing people in a Ruba, Nancy. It is
34:51
Speaker 1: not just poor Natalie, it's other people that are missing
34:54
Speaker 1: down there. So this is gonna be key to not
34:58
Speaker 1: just this case, but to other case. There there's a
35:00
Speaker 1: lot there, There's a lot of weight to bear here.
35:03
Speaker 1: I think that a big reveal is in the future
35:06
Speaker 1: and that's that's what we're waiting to see. Listen to
35:09
Speaker 1: this from the Oxygen series on Natalie Holloway. Earlier we
35:14
Speaker 1: heard part of t J Ward's interrogation of John, but
35:18
Speaker 1: now let's listen to more of this. This is what
35:20
Speaker 1: you'll hear towards the end of episode five of the
35:23
Speaker 1: disappearance of Natalie Holloway on Oxygen. Tell me what you
35:26
Speaker 1: know or what he told you about Mount halliway, the
35:30
Speaker 1: first night he ever opened up about it, about the
35:32
Speaker 1: May thirtieth night was we were at my house, my
35:35
Speaker 1: night in the Lifetime movie came on, so we last year,
35:38
Speaker 1: and throughout the movie there they're doing different things and stuff,
35:41
Speaker 1: and he started telling me like, you know, that's not true,
35:45
Speaker 1: like that he was picking movie apart. Tommy, Yeah, that's true.
35:48
Speaker 1: That's bogan is that's true, that's bogus. So that's how
35:51
Speaker 1: we started talking to me. Eventually, after the movie ended
35:54
Speaker 1: that night, he started talking about it and said, you know, John,
35:58
Speaker 1: I want you to know that bad things happen to
36:01
Speaker 1: good people. Accidents happened. Where did he takenamily got night?
36:07
Speaker 1: I'm not sure he acted rates her, but I know
36:09
Speaker 1: that he said I had help and it wasn't It
36:12
Speaker 1: wasn't beat back in Cities. Who helped him? He never
36:15
Speaker 1: said Polis his name, but him tied it was his father.
36:19
Speaker 1: So after something happened to her on the beach, he
36:21
Speaker 1: called Paulas. Yes, and then what happened, I guess Paulas
36:26
Speaker 1: came and helped him figure out how to get rid
36:28
Speaker 1: of evidence. Where did they detect the body after they
36:31
Speaker 1: got her off the beach? He's dad. He got everything disposal,
36:37
Speaker 1: I mean before sunrise that they where there's a cold
36:43
Speaker 1: there's a quotas act there that on the top of
36:46
Speaker 1: the hill, that it's desert dated cactuses and thornful ships
36:50
Speaker 1: and nobody goes up there. At what point in time
36:52
Speaker 1: did he ask you and tell you about doing someone
36:57
Speaker 1: remaining noting all the way? Now, what does he want
36:59
Speaker 1: you to do? Well? He knew I was heavily hooked
37:01
Speaker 1: on heroin at the time, and I didn't have the
37:04
Speaker 1: resources to keep it up daily. So he was saying,
37:08
Speaker 1: I'll give you for your help. Did he in fact
37:14
Speaker 1: give you fift yes? Okay? Did you go by yourself
37:20
Speaker 1: under his instruction? Did he go with you? No? Because
37:26
Speaker 1: he smell I want you to think about that. Did
37:29
Speaker 1: he go with you the dig a remains up? Yes?
37:37
Speaker 1: Did he go with you? Up? With you? All? Right?
37:40
Speaker 1: So y'all went out there and about for nights, okay?
37:45
Speaker 1: And what happened? The burlap sack was wrapped in a
37:50
Speaker 1: la tart, so it was kind of like keeping stuff
37:54
Speaker 1: from seeking out. Basically, did you open it up? Did
37:58
Speaker 1: you look at it? Okay? What'd you say? It? Very nasty?
38:01
Speaker 1: Look through my blackish strown dried matter. How do you feel,
38:08
Speaker 1: I'm sure? How did you feel when you saw I
38:10
Speaker 1: almost threw up? Right? Away just from the the gas
38:14
Speaker 1: from over till throw dick or do you take a
38:19
Speaker 1: remin do you not go? Believe to your rants crops?
38:25
Speaker 1: We originally he had discussed getting a cremated, but at
38:29
Speaker 1: that time it wasn't legal, but apparently some places we'd
38:33
Speaker 1: do it for pets. And what did you do? The
38:36
Speaker 1: idea was to crush everything to the point where it's
38:39
Speaker 1: not recognizable as arm bones or skull or anything like that.
38:43
Speaker 1: Did you do someone to remain before you broke from up?
38:47
Speaker 1: Or did did you do something remain after you broke
38:49
Speaker 1: from up? Did you burn him? The only thing that
38:53
Speaker 1: got burnt with the the skull to learn the hair fighters,
38:58
Speaker 1: there's doused and gas mean and fire being kept. It's
39:06
Speaker 1: about fifty yards to the right of Hits from VI
39:09
Speaker 1: in the desert. You are hearing sound from Oxygen's special
39:14
Speaker 1: documentary series on the Search for Natalie Holloway that starts
39:19
Speaker 1: with her dad Dave Holloway, along with a P. D. T. J. Ward,
39:24
Speaker 1: now private investigator, trying to follow leads and find his daughter.
39:29
Speaker 1: That leads me to our question as to whether you're
39:33
Speaker 1: vander Slute will ever be extradited to the U. S art.
39:39
Speaker 1: What do you make of it? Will he be extradited here? Fancy?
39:42
Speaker 1: The FBI has been reluctant to to trust this very
39:46
Speaker 1: questionable friend of vander Sluts as a witness to get
39:51
Speaker 1: any to get the killer extradited to the States alleged killer,
39:55
Speaker 1: because they need evidence to be able to convict in
39:58
Speaker 1: so far, all they've got against him is shaking down
40:05
Speaker 1: shaking down Natalie's mother for twenty dollars. That is not
40:10
Speaker 1: enough to get an extradge of the States. If they
40:12
Speaker 1: can get enough solid evidence from the site and Reuben
40:15
Speaker 1: authorities will invite the FBI in for a joint investigation.
40:20
Speaker 1: Big if they could possibly develop extradition material to get
40:26
Speaker 1: him sent to the States to be tried for murder.
40:29
Speaker 1: But they had there are a lot of a lot
40:31
Speaker 1: of things to jump over before that. How does how
40:35
Speaker 1: do you get him here for murder because it happened
40:37
Speaker 1: in Araba? Well, the FBI has jurisdiction over Americans killed
40:44
Speaker 1: abroad and if they can develop a case jointly with
40:48
Speaker 1: the Rubens could be tried in the States as well.
40:53
Speaker 1: This must be a nightmare for her parents. It's like
40:55
Speaker 1: it will never end. Never too, aren't Harris Emmy Award
41:02
Speaker 1: winning investigative reporter and Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator forensics
41:08
Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University. We're on the case. Thank you,
41:16
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend. Do you
41:26
Speaker 1: find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there
41:29
Speaker 1: was a group of people just like you to talk
41:31
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