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Why The Establishment Destroyed Michael Jackson | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

• 0:30
  Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is Jim Wolfe The Battle
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: of Ideas. Are you're Michael Jackson fan?
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, i am. I wouldn't say I'm a diehard fan.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I'm more of a casual fan. But I have been
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: a fan since I was a little kid. You know.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I loved Man in the Mirror, Heel, the World Black
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: or White. Those are the sort of the songs that
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: really inspired me when I was a young child, because
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I grew up in the eighties and nineties, and it's
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: kind of you know, so when those allegations came out
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety three, it was very jarring for me
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: because if you would have asked me to line up
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: one hundred celebrities and tell me which one's most to
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: least likely to be a pedophile, you know, I would
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: have put Michael Jackson at the end of the line
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: because there was so much empathy and compassion in his
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: music and in his interviews and in his whole persona,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: and so, you know, when I grew up, I didn't
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: know much about the allegations back then, and even in
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: two thousand and five, I didn't really follow it. I
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: was too busy. But after he died, you know, I
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: looked into it and I was just like, oh my god, Like,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: this is even though my intuition sort of told me
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: he was innocent, I didn't understand the scope of what
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: happened to him or the details, and so I just
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: felt obligated to document it and write about it in
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: a way that would be easier for other people to understand.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Let me quite the line from one of your songs,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: speculate to break the one you hate, circulate the lie,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: you confiscate, assassinate, and mutilate.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's brilliant, actually, I think, and it's so so
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: spot on, you know, because that is how the media operates.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: You know, they have, you know, because the media is
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: really owned by a handful of organizations or individuals, And
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: so you know, when you say speculate to break the
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: one you hate, you don't even necessarily need to spread lies.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: You just need to spread nuendo and gossip and rumor.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: And that's enough to break an individual. It's enough to
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: destroy their reputation, it's enough to psychologically damage them. It's
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: a real way to sort of go after your enemies,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: you know. He said later in that same song, slander.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: You say it's not a sword, but with your pen
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: you torture men, which is another like brilliant poetic line.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: And it's just I don't know. I just think those
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: lyrics are incredible. And then circulate the lie you confiscate.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: It sort of speaks to how fast you know, rumors
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: or allegations that are unbased can spread, because you can
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: put something on the media and it can spread globally
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: within minutes, within the hour. So how does the truth
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: catch up to that? How do you debunk an allegation?
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: You know, the media can put an allegation out there,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: you know, within an hour, the whole globe knows about it,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: And to debunk something takes time because you have to
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: go through it minutely. You have to go through it
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: in detail, and then you typically don't get the same audience.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: You know, I can debunk the Michael Jackson allegations, but
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to get a global audience too, you know,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: to speak to everyone, and I can't debunk it in
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: a minute either. You know, it takes time to debunk it.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: So He's right, you know, they can just circulate any
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: lie just just like that.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: So your book Michael Jackson, The Man, The Music, The
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Conspiracy you wrote in twenty twenty four, why are we
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: talking about Michael Jackson now in twenty twenty six.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think it's just he is such a
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: good window into how media works. Like I think I
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: gained such a perspective, you know, when I was young,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: and you know, because when I was a kid, I
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: asked my dad, you know, like, why is the media
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: so mean to Michael? Why are they so harsh to Michael?
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: And He's like, it appears like those in power don't
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: really like him, was kind of his response. And I
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: didn't really know what that meant or because I didn't
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: really understand how like solidified ers, how consolidated media was.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: But you have to look at it like Michael was
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: competition to the media, right because he had when he spoke,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: the whole entire world listened. You know, he had fans
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in Africa and South America and Asia, you know, in Europe,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: all over the world. So when he had a message
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: to say, and especially when he had a message to
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: say through music, because music is a very very powerful medium.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: It's much more powerful I think than any kind of medium,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: other medium in terms of evoking emotion, and people will
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: listen to a song over and over and over, and
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: it'll sit and they're subconscious. So even though he passed
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: away in two thousand and nine, his music is still here.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: So he can't speak on a topic, but he's still
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: competition to the media in a way through his music.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Because if you listen to the song you just mentioned,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Tabloid Junkie, that song was actually about the JFK assassination
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: and it kind of speaks to how the media, you know,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: character assassinated. They didn't just physically JK was not just
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: physically assassinated. He was also character assassinated. And he has
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: you know, Michael Jackson has so many other songs that
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: speak to so many controversial issues and that really unite humanity, right,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and those at the top don't necessarily want to unified society,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: you know, divide and conquers, like the oldest tactic in
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: the book. So I don't know if you want people
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: listening to someone like Michael Jackson like over and over
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: and over, because you know, I ended up writing a
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: book about John F. Kennedy as well, and I think
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: part of the reason is I wanted to clear his
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: name sort of in the way I wanted to clear
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Michael Jackson's name, and I think part of the reason
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: that I had it in my subconscious that he was
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: character assassinated is because I heard Michael sing it over
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: and over and over, and so I think because of
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: the power of the medium of music, he's still a
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: threat in a certain kind of way, even all these
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: years later.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Like many others, I didn't really listen closely to lyrics
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: of music. I just enjoyed the music. But there was
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: that one song. I think we all know that we
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: all made us ask questions at all I want to
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: say is that they don't really care about us. And
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I remember thinking, who's he talking about?
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's no, you know, because that is the question,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: who is they right? And that is an incredibly powerful song.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: And I think it's also important that he says all
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I want to say beforehand, so because that song came
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: out after the allegation, so in a way, it's a
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: sort of response to the allegations. And he's almost saying, like,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: all I'm trying to say is they don't care about us.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: And look at how I'm being how my reputation is
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: being destroyed, how I'm being attacked, you know, how everyone
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: is going after me, And all I'm trying to say
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: is the truth, which is those at the top don't
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: really care about the rest of humanity and are trying
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: to use divide and conquer tactics to separate people. And
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: so I think that the initial words to that phrase
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: you just said are really important, not just that they
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: don't care about us part, but all I want to
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: say part.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: This basically two aspects to Michael Jackson. It's pre nineteen
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: ninety three, in post nineteen ninety three.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think he started to become he was
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: a little bit outspoken in the eighties, you know. I
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: think Man in the Mirror was a song that had
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of impact. You know, he did the we
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Are the World. He wrote that song, which I don't
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: think a lot of people know that he wrote we
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Are the World. Those are very unifying songs, but not
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: necessarily controversial songs. Ninety yeah, humanitarian. And in nineteen ninety
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: one when he came with the out with the Black
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: or White album, I think he started to get a
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: little bit more controversial. Like in his Heel the World song,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: he had all these children playing, including from Israel and Palestine,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: you know, along and when the soldiers and the adults
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: saw the children playing, they laid down their weapons. So
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: imagine that where you're teaching the next generation of Israeli
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: and Palestinian children to play together and to lay down
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: their weapons. So I think that in itself again is
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: very humanitarian, but it's also very threatening in a way
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: to people who want yeah, and relevant still for people
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: who want that division. And then when he did the
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Black or White video, at the end, he does the
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Black Panther dance, which I didn't understand as a child,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: but you know, the Black Panther dance. You know a
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: lot of people say, you refer to the Black Panther
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Party from the like nineteen sixties, late nineteen sixties, which
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: was a very anti imperialist party which really spoke out
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: against American actions in Vietnam, you know, actions at home,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and it really spoke out against American imperialism. And he's
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: so in the Black or White video, there's sort of
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: three sections, right. There's the first section where you see
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: sort of a family that's sort of absorbed in like sports.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: The husband's absorbed in watching sports, the wife is absorbed
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: in gossip magazine, and he's kind of showing you kind
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: of how oblivious the average suburban home is, like they're
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: kind of living in their own world. They don't know
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: what's going on outside their world. And then the second
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: half of the next section of the video, he's sort
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: of dancing all over the planet with all these different
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: cultures and people, and he's sort of showing the utopian
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: version of the world is and like we can all
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: get along, you know, it doesn't matter if you're black
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: or white. And then the end he transforms to a
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: black panther and he does this sort of like very
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: violent dance which was censored from later TV broadcasts, And
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: the hotel sign that falls at the end of it
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: is called royal Arms, which I think stands for like
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: imperial weapons, right, because this is the black Panther the
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: anti imperialist party. You see the royal arms hotel fall
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: at the end and then at the very end bar
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: and then it zooms out in the end, and Bart
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Simpson's watching it, and Homer Simpson says, turn off that garbage.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: I think he's sort of showing how the pain of
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: people who are suffering, you know, from imperialism, from poverty,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: from whatever, how their pain you can just shut off
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: and censor their pain. Is kind of what happens at
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: the end when Homer's just like, shut that garbage off.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: So it's like the Black Panther is trying to express
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: their pain and frustration and that typical suburban home is
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: just like I don't want to see it. And so
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I think it was, you know, that was nineteen ninety one,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: and so that's already he's kind of getting into controversial
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: topics and maybe it's not as explicit, like I didn't
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: get it as a kid. I didn't understand the Black
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Panther dance as a kid like I do now, But
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: it still was getting into that stage where it's not
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: a big leap to go from that to then they
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: don't care about us after the allegations.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, and then ninety ninety three happened.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, nineteen ninety three happens. So yeah, at the start
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety three, he performed at the Super Bowl,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: which I still remember that performance, you know, when I
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: was a kid there, like a preteen. I absolutely loved it.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: He performed Heal the World. He got all these people
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: together again from all these different cultures sort of singing together,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: and he spoke and he said, we need to remake
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: the planet into a haven of goodness and understanding and joy,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: you know, and compassion for others. So again very humanitarian,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: very unifying. And then six months later the allegations come
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: out against him. And so what kind of happened is
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: he his car broke down or ran out of gas,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: and he met this family who he sort of befriended,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: and this lady had a young son and a daughter,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: and so they started hanging out with Michael. And then
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: when her ex husband got a hold that they were
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: hanging out. So her ex husband paid no attention to
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: his son at that point. He owed tons of back
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: child support, like he wasn't in the picture at all, basically,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: but when the kid started hanging out with Michael and
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: the mother started hanging out with Michael, he wanted to
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: get in on that right. And at first Michael was
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: very friendly to him and what not, but I think
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: mj didn't really like him, so he tried to separate
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: from Evan Chandler was his name, and so Evan started
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: to get sort of started to act jealous. So June's
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: new husband, who she was separated from by this point,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: David Schwartz taped a phone call that he had with
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Evan Chandler because they were concerned about Evan, because Evan
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: was starting to act really jealous and just erratic and
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: they weren't sure what he was going to do, you know.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: And he's like, why did Michael stop calling me? He
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: didn't have to stop calling me. So he almost sounds
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: like a jilted X in a way, like he's upset
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: that Michael's not talking to him. And he said, you know,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: he didn't say he was going to accuse Michael of
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: molesting his son, but he kind of implied it. You know.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: He says, this man has no idea what's going to
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: happen to him. I'm going to destroy all of them, Michael, June, Jordie,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: just again, all three of them, not just Michael. You know.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: He's kind of really bitter at all of them, you know,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: And he says, everything's going according to a certain plan
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: that isn't just mine. Other people are involved. I just
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: have to set this thing in motion and this man
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: will not sell another record. So you can already see
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: here there's sort of some kind of targeted attempt to
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: go after Michael, Like we don't know who else Evan
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: was involved with. We don't know who else he was
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: talking to, but he's on tape saying other people are
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: involved and that everything's going according to a certain plan.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: That isn't just his those are his words, Evan Chandler's words.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: And so what happened then is David Schwartz took that
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: tape to Anthony Pelicano, which was Michael's private investigator, and
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: they asked, Jordy, you know, is Michael molesting you? What's
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: going on here? And Jordie said, no, nothing's going on,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Like my father just wants money or something. And so
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: in any case, Evan kept asking June if he could
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: spend a week with Jordie, and so June eventually let
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Evan spend a week with Jordan. And what happened then
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: is like Evan refused to give Jordan back to his mother.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: So Jordan ended up staying with his father for like
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: a whole month because Evan wasn't giving him back. And
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: then what happened as June went to court and she's like,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I want my son back, you know, And then that
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: day when Evan was supposed to give the Sun back,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: he took the son to a psychologist. He had previously
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: gone to a psychologist with a hypothetical scenario, and he
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: was like, how do I report abuse without liability to
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: the parent? So like, in other words, how does it
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: get reported? And I don't get in trouble if it's false, right,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: And the psychologist says, well, if a child reports it
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: to me, I'm obligated to report it to the Department
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: of Children and Family Services. So then that what happened,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: is like when Evan was supposed to give Jordan back
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: to June, he instead took Jordan to a psychologist. At
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: that point, Jordan told the psychologist that he had been molested.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: That then went to the Department of Children and Family Services,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: which went to the police, which then blew up and
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: like the global media, like right away, just completely blew
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: up in the global media. And so Michael responded and
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: he wanted to press extortion charges against ev because what
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: was happening this whole time is so Evan had written
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Robinhood Men and Tights. He was a dentist, but he
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: was trying to get into the screenplay business, and so
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: he was trying to and Michael was like working on
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: some film production company with Sony he had gotten like
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: forty million dollars from Sony to work on this film
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: production company, and Evan wanted to write scripts. So Evan
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: went to Michael. This is before they went to the psychiatrist,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: or after he went with the hypothetical, but before Jordie went.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: He went to Michael and he said, you know, can
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: you give me a script, you know, a movie deal,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: and he wanted twenty million dollars to write screenplays. And
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: so Michael's attorneys felt that this was an extortion attempt,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: and they wanted to make record of the extortion attempt.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: So they first went back to Evan's lawyers and said,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: we'll give you a one million dollar script deal for
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: three scripts, and Evan came back, or Evan's lawyer came back,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: said that's not nearly enough. We want twenty million. And
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: then Pelicano or whoever was doing the negotiations, went back
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: to Very Rothman, who was Evan Chandler's lawyer, and said,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: we'll give you just one script for three hundred and
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: fifty thousand. And at that point Rothman knew they were
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: not serious about negotiating because their second offer was a
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: lot lower than their first offer, and then, so this
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: was all happening kind of at the same time that
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: June was trying to get Jordi back, and it's just
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: the whole drama. But in any case, at the end
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: of the day, Evan took Jordan to the psychiatrist and
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: then it blew up in the media. Michael went after
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: him for extortion charges, which the police didn't take seriously
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: at all. They didn't even interview them on the extortion case.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: They basically didn't follow up on it at all. So
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Rothman took himself off as Chandler's lawyer because of the
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: extortion charges, and then Chandler went to a civil attorney.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: So this is really important to understand. So now the
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: police are investigating Michael, so there's an appending criminal investigation
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: against Michael Jackson. Evan goes to a new attorney, Larry Feldman,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: and files a civil lawsuit. So now you've got two
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: court cases simultaneously against Michael Jackson. You've got a criminal
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: investigation and that the police is working on, and you
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: have a civil lawsuit that Evan Chandler has pushed against Michael.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And what's happening is that Michael's lawyers went to the
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: judge four times and said, please delay or stay this
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: civil case until the criminal investigation is complete. It's not
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: fair for our client to give a civil deposition under
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: oath on appending criminal matter, because that's the same thing
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: like the defense going first and the prosecution going second.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Because they're like, if Michael goes under oath and he
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: says I was here and there and everywhere, you know,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: then the police can just say, well, he didn't molest
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: him at this time, he molested him at that time,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: and they can completely craft their case around what he's
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: already said under oath. So they kept going back to
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: the judge saying, can we delay this civil case until
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: the criminal is complete, but Evan Chandler's lawyer said no need.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: They asked for like an expedited civil trial and said
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: we need this right away. The criminal investigation might take years,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Jordie might forget. We need to proceed a sep with
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: the civil case. And the judge agreed with so he
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: didn't agree with Michael's lawyers. He said we're going to
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: expedite the civil trial. So they scheduled the civil trial
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: from March nineteen ninety four, and they were supposed to
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: depose Michael on January nineteen ninety four. Right, And so
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: the police interviewed all these people because the police investigations
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: going on, they can't find a single piece of evidence,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: a single credible witness, absolutely nothing. So what they decide
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: is that they're going to do a body search of Michael.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: So they get naked. Yes, they take photos of his
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: private parts, video of his private parts or whatnot, completely
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: just humiliating, degrading. And then what's really interesting is then
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Feldman on the civil case puts an emotion and says,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: we want to give Michael Jackson's attorney's three options. Either
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: they hand over the photos to us, either they do
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: another body search, or we bar them from the civil trial.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So why on earth are Chandler's lawyers trying to bar
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the photos from the civil trial if there was a match,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: and we know today there wasn't a match because Jordie
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: said Michael was circumcised, his autopsy said he's not circumcised.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: And also if there had been a match, you know
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: they would have arrested Michael. They never arrested him. And
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: later during the grand jury they asked his mother if
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Michael had surgery on his Genitalia, which is another indication
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: that there was no match in the description. But in
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: any case, so the day of Michael's deposition, which was
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: like late January nineteen ninety four, Michael's lawyer settled the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: case because they're like, Michael, you cannot give a civil
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: deposition under oath like this is a pending criminal matter.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: The prosecution has to go first. It's not your turn
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: to go, you know, they need to go. And so
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: that's why the case was settled. It is not clear
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: who paid the settlement. A representative representative from Trans American
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Insurance Company said they offered to pay the settlement. Whether
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: they actually did or not, I'm not one hundred percent sure.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: It's not clear in the documentation. So it may or
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: may not have been paid by Michael's insurance company, or
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: may or may not have been paid by Michael. I'm
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: not sure. But the main reason for the set the
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: case was to avoid that civil deposition and to let
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the criminal jump.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for interrupting, but that settlement, that out
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: of quote settlement, is what also triggered huge amounts of speculation.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, it damaged his reputations severely, and I think that's
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: why it's so important that because the way the media
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: told the story is he bought his way out of jail.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: But what they don't tell is it was Michael's lawyers
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: who went to the judge over and over and said,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: hold the civil case, let the criminal go first. So
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: it's Chandler's lawyers that are trying to make the civil
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: go first, not Michael's lawyers. So if he was trying
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: to buy first of all, if he was trying to
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: buy his way out of prison, he would have given
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Evan the twenty million film deal that Evan wanted back
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: in the summer, which he you know, instead of doing that,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: he let Evan accuse him of child molestation. He'll let
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: this whole thing go out in the press, you know.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And even then he could have been like, Okay, let's
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: let the civil case go first. No, he wasn't like that.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: He's like, let's do the criminal first. So you can
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: clearly see who's pushing for the money and who's put
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: wishing for a proper investigation. But you're right, that's not
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: at all how the media reported it. The way the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: media reported it is he paid money to get out
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: of this. But you can't a civil or criminal case
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: of absolutely nothing to do with each other. You can't
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: buy off a criminal case. And actually after they did
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: that settlement in January, later that spring, they did two
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: grand juries, not one, but two, one in Los Angeles
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: and one in Santa Barbara. And then both grand juries
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: refused to indict Michael Jackson. And they say, you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: you can indict a ham sandwich, like an indictment is
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: the easiest thing in the world to get. But both
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: grand juries refused to indict him because there was no evidence.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: So even from a criminal perspective, it did go in
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: front of two juries and they both refused to even
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: issue it an indictment, let alone a guilty verdict. And so, yeah,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: it has been misreported. And unfortunately, you know, from a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: legal perspective, his lawyers absolutely gave him the right advice
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: like that, you know, because he had. And actually the
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: California laws changed as a direct result of the Michael
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Jackson case because because it was so incredibly unfair, after that,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the law changed and you could no longer push a
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: civil case in front of a criminal after that Michael
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Jackson case. So even like the California court systems agreed
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: with how ridiculous this whole scenario was, and how unfair
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: it was to Michael Jackson. And so I think people
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: need to understand that broader context to understand why he settled.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: And it's not just oh, I wanted to pay my
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: way out of prison, and it's not even clear if
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: he paid it, and even if he did, it's understandable
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: if he did, but that's not clear either as to
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: who paid the settlement.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: And I remember those that leaked phone call in which
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Michael said that they were coming after him, and he actually, yeah,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: this is where the anti semitic charges came from, because
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: he said the Jews or something to that effect. And
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: you even used that in these lyrics. What was that
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: one song, I've got it, yes.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Some way, they don't care about us?
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's in that one where he says, Jumy
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: sue me. Everybody do me, kick me, kayake me. Don't
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: you black or white me?
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: Action promised several months ago to revise the lyrics to
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: a song they don't care about Us, lyrics.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Many called anti semitic. Last year, he angered Jewish groups
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: when he sang these words I'm shot, Jumie sue me,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: kick me Kike me. Those are the words that he
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: told us that he would never use again.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: They ut out the most popular person in the world,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: make a lot of money, big out cards and everything,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: and up conspiracy. Did you do it on perfectly?
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I was extremely controversial, and they actually censored
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: those lyrics. So I think the first version of the
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: CD or the tape that went out had the uncensored lyrics,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: and then you know, there's a huge uproar, and Sony
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: made him go in and record sounds over those lyrics.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: And I actually went to like one of these studio
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: sessions that might the people that worked on Michael's music
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: give from time to time, and the guy that actually
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: put the sounds over it said, Michael Jackson came back
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: to him like five separate times and said, make it louder,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: make it louder, make it louder. So Michael wanted it
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: to be very egregious and very obvious that they were
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: censoring those lyrics. And you know, his studio people said
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: he was absolutely pissed that they were forcing him to
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: censor his lyrics. Angry, Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean he was.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: If you listen to the History album, you know he
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: is furious, Like that whole entire album from beginning to
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: end is just anger. It's you know, absolutely furious that
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: whole album, and you can you know, he's singing about
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: other things like Tabloid Junkie is about, you know, talks
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: about JFK. You know, they don't care about us, talks
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: about you know, the general sort of divide and conquer
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: that our society lives under, you know, money, talks about
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: the greed, how our world is run by greed and
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: how you can buy anybody to do anything you want.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: And that one lyric from Tabloid Junkie you mentioned JFK.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: JFK exposed the CIA truth be told the Grassy Knoll.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so for those that aren't familiar with the JFK assassination,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the Grassy Knoll is where a lot of people think
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: a second shooter was stationed. So you know, before that,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Michael says, who's the next for you to resurrect? Because
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: he said to you when you when you said in
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: your opening assassinate and mutilate. So I interpret those lyrics says, Okay,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: assassinate JFK, mutilate his image, and then resurrect him as
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: something other than what he was, which is sort of
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: you know, instead of he was, you know, because he
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: was a really conscientious, hardworking public servant, you know, who
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: was working on behalf of humanity, and they resurrected him
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: as this dopey like self absorbed playboy, and then Michael saying, well,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: truth be told the Grassy Knoll. So like, you know,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: if you want to know who the real JFK is,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: you know, go look the Grassy k Know.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Basically, I mean, anybody who's done any kind of home
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: into that will know that Oswald was a patsy.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he actually Michael Jackson in his video they
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: don't care about Us, So that video is also brilliant.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: There's two videos, but one of them's in a prison
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: and he's got these like images playing on TVs behind him,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and one of the images is Lee Harvey Oswald getting
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: shot by Jack Ruby. So he did have actually Oswald
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: in his they Don't care about his video, And that
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: video is also really interesting because he's in a prison
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: cell and he's got these TVs with what kind of
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: looks like an all seeing eye around them, so it's
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: almost like it's sort of portraying that we're all sort
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: of living in this confinement and kind of way, and
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: we can't really escape from this like confinement that we're
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: living in. So I thought the video is sort of
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: the symbolism of that video is brilliant.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I actually think that the symbolism also on Dangerous was
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: particularly interesting. I've been trying to work out that cover
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: for years.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. It's got a lot on it from
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: what I remember the cover, right, It's just it's so
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: much like in that cover. No, there is a lot
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: of messages because, like I said, with Black or White,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: you know, I didn't understand the black Panther dance. I
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: didn't understand what it meant that the Royal Arms Hotel fell.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I didn't understand any of that as a kid. It
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: wasn't until much later that I rewatched it. I was like, oh, wow,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: he's actually saying a lot in his music that I
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: did not pick up on at all.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Everybody got him wrong.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's I think he is the most
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: misrepresented person probably in certainly in our lifetime. Like I
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: can't imagine anybody who's been more misrepresented in the public
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: sphere than he has.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: But the thing, Monica is he didn't really make it
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I mean he was very odd.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Yees, No, I do agree with that, I think. And
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: he also didn't like to speak much. He liked to
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: speak through his music rather than give interviews, and I
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: think that also hurt. But I think I think just
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: to give some sort of context in here, so I
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: think it was nineteen eighty four he had these horrible
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: burns on his scalp, which I believe if it didn't
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: lead to his vitel igo, it's severely exacerbated because one
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: of the leading causes of viteligo is burns. So he
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: had these severe burns which he suffered from for the
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: rest of his life because they he couldn't grow hair anymore.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: So they tried to repair the burns with surgery, and
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: it made it even more painful, which then got him
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: addicted to painkillers. So he did have from off and
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: on and during the rest of his life painkiller addictions.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: But it also I believe either led to or exacerbated
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: an existing case of viteligo, because you notice it's after
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: those skin or so after those burns, that he tries
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: start to lose the pigmentation of his skin and so,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: and he also starts to have a lot of plastic
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: surgery during that time, and I think part of it,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: part of it. I think there's a lot of reasons
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: he probably had plastic surgery. One is like he was
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: made fun of by his father a lot, and you know,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: he's in the public spotlight. He's really sensitive, he's really insecure.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: You know, he's an artist. He wants to look good
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: on stage. But I think it was also a reaction
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: to the vitaligo and the loss of his hair because
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: of the burns, because that changes your appearance a lot,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: and so you try to respond to that in like
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: ways that you think you can at least in some
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: ways those things he couldn't control, but at least the
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: plastic surgery to some extent he could control. So I
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: think it was partly reactions to those things. So I
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: think people underestimate just the effect that those burns had
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: on the rest of his life and what that led to.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: So it did lead to painkillers, you know, did I
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: think lead to more plastic surgery, probably, which and again,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: oh go ahead, no.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I was gonna say. Didn't help that the media
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: amplified that weirdness.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, absolutely, so the media tried to make it
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: look like he's intentionally you know, hates his race, like
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: he wants to intentionally bleach his skin. That he's just
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: you know, wacko jacko. That was kind of the term,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: you know that the tabloids and really the mainstream press
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: pushed as well, and they would always try to find
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the worst possible photos of him, you know, and put
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: them on TV. And so they absolutely tried to amplify
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: his weirdness. And and he was different, you know, he
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: was unique. He didn't have a normal childhood. You know,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I think he he loved children for two reasons. I
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: think one is like he didn't have a childhood, but two,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: like he loved creation. He loved nature, He loved children,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And I think he got his inspiration to write music
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: from creation. Like he would sit in a tree and
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: write music. So that's like kind of the essence of nature, right,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: just sitting in a tree. And if you look at Neverland,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: it's so beautiful, it's just three thousand acres of nature.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: And so I think he, you know, he was different
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Something else that came through He's.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I think it was a history album where he didn't
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: only point out the problems with the media and the establishment,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: but also his audience. What's that one line? And you
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: don't have to read it. To by it is to
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: feed it. So why do we keep fooling ourselves?
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the tabloid junkie song, and that also
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: is absolutely brilliant. So he's accusing a media of you know,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: slander and lies and all this, but he's also accusing
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the audience and saying, why are you listening to it?
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: You know, to say, to read it is to sanctify it,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: you know, So why are you sanctifying what the media
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: is saying? Why are you You're validating their lies? So
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: why are you doing it? Why do you why are
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: you know, like you said his lyrics, or why do
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: we keep fooling ourselves? Why do we keep falling for propaganda?
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Why don't we question these media narratives? And so he's right,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: it is the media's fault for propagandizing people, but it's
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: also the public's fault for being so gullible to propaganda.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Do you remember when he bruke from Sony.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he actually just as he finished his final
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: commitment to Sony, or one of his final commitments, which
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: is I think a music video that's the day they
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: arrested him in two thousand and three for a child molestation.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: So he was originally accused in nineteen ninety three, that
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: criminal case went nowhere, the civil case was settled. So
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and three there was another allegation that
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: came out as a result of a documentary. And we
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: can go into that if you want, but yes, basically, yeah,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: So basically there was this documentary Leaving Neverland. And so,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: as you said, Michael's image was a complete mess, right.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: People thought he was strange and weird, and you know,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: he had pain kill issues, you know, plastic surgery issues
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: and whatnot. So he wanted to clarify his image and
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: show his true self, and so he got calmed into
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: doing this documentary with Martin Basher which turned into a
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: complete like hit piece of a very manipulatively edited hit piece.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: And in that documentary he's seen with a boy, a
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Gavin Arviso, and he's holding the boy's hand, and it
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: came out later in court that Martin Basheer asked Michael
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: to hold Gavin's hand while they were filming, and Gavin
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: was the childhood cancer He met Michael through Michael's hair
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: stylist because her son was in the same dance class.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I think because Gavin, and anyway, she felt bad for
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: the kid because he had cancer. So she got the
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: family hooked up with Michael and they met and this
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: kid and Basher said, you know, give me show me
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: some kids, Juno that you just average kids that you met,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: that you've helped with, you know, their cancer treatments or whatnot.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: And so Michael agreed to have Gavin appear in this
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: documentary with them. And so after that and in the
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: document so Gavin and his brother begged Michael to sleep
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: in his room. They're like, can we please sleep in
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: your one night? This was just one night, Can we
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: please sleep in your room? Can we please sleep in
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: your room? And Michael was kind of uneasy about it,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: so he asked his assistant and he had his children
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: sleep in the room as well, and he gave the
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: two boys the bed and Michael and I think his
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: children and his assistants slept on the floor. But in
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: the documentary, you know, Michael says, you know, you always
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: give the best to the company. But they kind of
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: cut it up in a way where Michael says, you know,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: the most loving thing you can do is share your bed.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: So they kind of implied that they slept in the
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: bed together. But what he meant is what he said later,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: which is, you give the best to the company, right,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: you kind of give your bed and then you sleep
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: on the floor. Is what happened. But the media chopped
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: that up and it just was a complete firestorm again.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Everyone started speculating that Michael was molesting Gavin. And this
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: was filmed somewhere in like two thousand and two, and
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: this documentary aired in early February two thousand and three,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: and so Gavin hadn't seen Michael since they filmed. And
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: then so the media starts hounding Gavin's family, and Gavin
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: reaches out to Michael and says, can we spend a
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: few weeks at Neverland until the media hoopla dies down?
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: You know, they're at our door, they're hounding us, and
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Michael's like sure, whatever. You know, Neverlands three thousand acres,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: it's got multiple guest cottages, you can stay on the property.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: And so because of this media firestorm, you know, the
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: police start investigating Michael for possibly molesting Gavin. Department of
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Children and Family Services start investigating him for possibly molesting Gavin.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: You know, Gavin's like school head of school, principal or whatever.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Asks him if he's being molested. He says no. This family,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: according to Michael's staff who testified in court, started to
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: act entitled to Michael's money and Michael's property, and they
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: were sort of rude. They weren't respectful of the property.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: And Michael eventually kicked them out in early March. So
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: they were there about maybe four or five six weeks.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: He kicks them off the property in early March. And
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: then so they changed their story and say no, he
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: did molest us. He They first go to a civil
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: attorney and say the same civil attorney actually that won
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: the Chandler lawsuit in nineteen ninety three. And the attorney
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: tells them, well, the laws have changed. We can't pursue
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: a civil case. You have to work with the police first,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: and when the police are done, then you can come
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: back to us for a civil case. So come November,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: the police arrests Michael Jackson. Now you have to okay, well,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: let me get to this. So in their arrest sheet
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: they accuse him of molesting Gavin five times. Gavin says
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: he was molested five times, and then his brother says
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: he saw Gavin molested an additional two times. So but
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: basically in the charge sheet they say Gavin says Michael
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Jackson molested me five times between the dates of it
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: was like February third or something like that to March tenth,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: something like that. That's on a charge sheet. But when
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: they start doing their so they arrested him in late
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: two thousand and three, the trials not till two thousand
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: and five. So as they're doing their investigation through two
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: thousand and four, they run into a few issues. One
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: is they find a videotape because Michael take the Rebuttal
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: documentary to this Basher hip piece, and their visas didn't
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: appear in the Rebuttal, but they did videotape for the Rebuttal.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: So on February twentieth, they're on videotape praising Michael Jackson
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: and they're just completely laughing at and making fun of
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: the insinuations that Basher made in his documentary about Gavin
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: being molested. The police find this videotape and they're like,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: oh crap, Like this kid says he's being molested. We've
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: got video of him laughing about the idea that he's molested.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: So let us add an imprisonment charge to Michael's charges.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: So he wasn't just charged with mulstation. He was charged
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: with trying to imprison this family because the police were
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: saying Michael forced them to make this video, even though
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: when you watch the video there's tons of chit chat
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: in between filming like this obvious, like they think these
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: allegations are a joke. But in any case, the police
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: have to come up with some kind of excuse for
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: this video, so they say Michael imprisoned this family and
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: force them to make this video. But then they find
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: an ironclad alibi for the early parts of February, so
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Michael Jackson could not have molested Gavin before this video.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: So by the time they get to court, they claim
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: that the molestation started after the video on February twentieth,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: and that Gavin was molested only twice, not five times.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: So the trial is a completely different case than they won.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: They charged him under because they charged him under five
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: molestations starting February third, they go to court with two
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: molestations starting after February twentieth, and so now you look
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: at this timeline. This documentary airs in middle of February
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: and early February, the entire world is speculating that Michael
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: is molesting this child. The police are investigating him, Department
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: of Children and Family Services are investigating him. And then Michael,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: after all of this, decides, Hey, for the very first time,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to decide that I'm going to molest this child.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Because the first molestation, according to the police's own timeline,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: started after February twentieth. That would literally make him the
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: dumbest human being on the entire planet. Like, who starts
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: molesting someone they are already under investigation for molesting. And
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I don't think a single mainstream media outlet everyone's explained
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: the timeline. Everyone's explained that the charges completely changed between
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: the original charges and what was came out in court,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: and you know, and I think it was the grand
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: jury form. And I think said in an interview, like
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: what kid doesn't know the difference between being molested five
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: times and two times? Like how do you change your
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: story that drastically? And of course Rezones had massive credibility issues.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: They had sued J. C. Penny for sexual molestation because
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Gavin got picked up for shoplifting, and his mother claimed
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: that jac Penny security guards molested her and j. C.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Penny was like fed up and didn't want anything to
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: do with them, so they gave him one hundred and
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: fifty grand to go away. And I think that's what
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: they were hoping with Michael Jackson, that Michael Jackson get
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: fed up like jac Penny and be like, here's some money,
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: just leave me alone. But that didn't happen in the
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Michael Jackson case, you know, it went the criminal route instead,
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: and so that and there's so many other credibility the
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: issues they have that I won't get into, but the
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: case was just such a joke. I don't and I
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: don't think a single media outlet explained the timeline.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: And an important figure was Macaulay Culkin.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Actually, yes, yes, so he did. So their case was
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: so weak that the prosecution tried to come up with
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: what they called prior bad acts, and so they brought
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: on these witnesses who had been fired by Michael Jackson,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: who had sold stories to the tabloids, who actually had
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: been countersued by who tried to sue Michael Jackson for
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: wrong full termination, and had been countersued and so they
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: owed like over a million dollars to Michael Jackson because
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: the judge sided with Michael Jackson that they took property
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: from Neverland or something. So these are really shady characters.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: In any case, they testified that they had seen McCaulay
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Culkin molested and so, and the prosecution didn't bother to
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: go ask Macaulay Culkin, were you molested? And so Tom Mazerro,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Michael's defense attorney, brought Culkin. And it wasn't just Culkin,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: it was Brett Barnes and also Wade Robson.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: We can get to Robson later.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: If you want.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Also and also that got from was It Insinc? His brother?
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Uh no, he was a he was a choreographer for
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Britney Spears. I think that's who you're thinking of, Wade Robson.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm thinking of of of one of
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: the one of the was it instinct I forget now
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: one of the brothers. He died. He died, but he
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: was on video saying that Michael didn't Oh.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Aaron Aaron Carter it. Yeah, no, he didn't testify a trial,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: but he has defended Michael. Yes, that's correct, but yeah,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: so the prosecution didn't ask these boys, were you molested?
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: You know, And so the Michael's defense attorney, his first
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: three witnesses were these three boys, and they all testified
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Number one, I was not molested by Michael Jackson. Number two,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: the prosecution never bothered to ask me if I was molested,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: you know. They just put these tabloids selling people who
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: owed Michael Jackson money on the stand to make these claims.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, the case was just so ridiculous. It was
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: just if it wasn't so tragic, I think it would
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: be comedic.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: But the sad thing is, though, as you said earlier,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: as ridiculous as the case was, it destroyed him even more.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Oh oh, absolutely, because the media didn't explain much of
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: this at all. I remember them talking about the JC
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Penny thing, so some of it they did explain to
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: the public, but they reported on these allegations as though
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: they were credible, as though you know, it was just
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: horribly reported. And I think again they never explained that
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: the charges had completely changed over the year from when
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: they initiated to when they went to court. That the
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: timeline was just the most absurd thing ever, Like the
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: most important things that would convince people that this is nonsense.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: They never mentioned they mentioned, you know, some things like
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: JC Penny, but it was just they for the most part,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: talked about it as if it was true, and it
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: was credible, and it absolutely destroyed his reputation.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: I mentioned the Sony breakup because he called Tommy Motoila
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: the devil. He was the CEO of Sony Music. And
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: what's interesting about Tommy is that Tommy was friends with
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: P Diddy.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I think Michael certainly thought that there was
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: a conspiracy, and he talked about it because he owned
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: half of the Sony Music catalog, which was worth a
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: lot of money, like over a billion dollars or whatever,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: and he thought that Sony was trying to weaken him
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: to force him to sell his half of the catalog
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: back to them. So he absolutely felt that those charges
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: that Sony was somehow involved in pushing these molestation charges
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: against them to try to destroy him so that they
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: could get their music catalog back. That's what Michael believed.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: I don't think he was wrong, Probably not, Yeah, I
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: think he definitely felt that people were intentionally trying to
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: destroy him. And there's no doubt and even in a
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: song about the district. He wrote a song about the
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: district attorney in nineteen ninety five. In the song, he's said,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I bet he missioned with the CIA. So I think
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Michael definitely felt that there was a targeted campaign to
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: try to destroy him, you know, probably coming from various
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: sectors of power.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: How did nobody pick up on any of this?
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think part of it is one is, like
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: you said, a lot of people don't listen to lyrics
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: because I think the lyrics in a song gave a
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: lot away or gave a lot of hints away, you know.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I think another part is to your point, he was different.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: He did appear strange to a lot of people. He
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: didn't communicate well, you know, he was very shy. So
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: I don't think he really knew how to speak for himself,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: and he wouldn't. He didn't really have the platform either
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: other than through his music, you know. And I think
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: also that we didn't have the internet back then in
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: the early nineties. We did in the early two thousands,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't like it is today where you can
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: have all these podcasts and you can kind of speak
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: on these matters much more so. The media landscape. The
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: independent media was much weaker back then as well, which
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: I think, and so at that point, people just listen
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: to what the mainstream press said. And I think it's
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: horrific because it's just you can see that, you know,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: like Michael Jackson said, they speculate to break the one
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: you hate. You can see sort of how media can destroy,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: completely destroy an individual, and how much power they have.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Well, listen to this, just regarding the Sony thing. So
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: he released Invincible in October two thousand and one, which
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: was his last studio album, and then at that stage
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: he had already told Sony that he wanted out of
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: his recording contract when it expired. Tommy Mottola, upon hearing this,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: had lawyer John Branker rewrite contracts to tie Michael Jackson
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: to the label for longer. Sony then canceled all promotion
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: for Invincible two months before release and show of the
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: single what More Can I Give?
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, he was very angry about that because he wrote
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: what More Can I Give? To try to sort of
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: unite people after nine to eleven it was kind of
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: like We Are the World, like a version of that,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: and Sony wouldn't release it as a single, they wouldn't
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: promote his album Invincible at all, which Michael was very
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: angry about. So, you know, at the time these two
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: thousand and three allegations came out, you know, his relationship
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: with Sony was extremely fractured, you know, and he was
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: on the verge of getting out of his contract, and
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: then of course all that mess happened with the courts,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: and you know, and I don't think he ever recovered, Like,
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think he ever recovered from those allegations. He
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: was just so beaten down by them. And so you know,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I know, his bodyguards wrote a book and they said, like,
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: you know, if someone would yell child molester in public
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: or something, you know, first they would lie to Michael
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: and say, no, you misheard that. You didn't hear that,
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: because they knew he would just go into his room
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: for like a week and just like completely shut down
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: because he was so affected by it.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: And then your book also note that even after he died,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: the attacks on him didn't stop.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So on the ten year anniversary of his death,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: which is probably not a coincidence that this documentary came
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: because usually on a ten year anniversary of someone's death,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: you remember their life, you celebrate them. But on the
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: ten years anniversary of Michael Jackson's death, I would say
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: was probably the largest attempt to cancel him since the
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: two thousand and five trial. So HBO came out with
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: this ridiculous documentary Leaving Neverland, and these two men in it.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: They had It's kind of a long story, but basically
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: they accused Michael Jackson of molesting them when they were younger.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: And these are two men who had previously both you know,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: defended Michael under their whole lives, who had testified under oath.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: You know that Michael had not done anything to them,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: and so I'll just kind of give you try to
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: explain this. So like Wade Robson was the first one
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: to make an accusation. So Wade Robson his entire life
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: had been praising Michael Jackson. When Michael Jackson died, you know,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: he tried to get into the funeral, He did these
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: dance tributes to him. He emailed these TV shows and said,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I want to do tributes to Michael Jackson.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: He wrote that Michael Jackson was like the kindest person
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: he'd ever met, and he really wanted to choreograph the
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Circusole Show, tribute show to Michael Jackson, which was run
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: by the Michael Jackson Estate. He even told the media
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: that he got the job, that he was going to
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: be the director of this show, but the Michael Jackson
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: estate decided to hire someone else, and so after that
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: he came out and he sued the estate for child molestation.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: So I think he had a lot of it. Seems
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: like he's angry at the estate for not hiring him,
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: and maybe angry at Michael Jackson for you know, not
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: leaving him any money or not you know, looking out
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: for him or whatever. And Wade actually dated Michael Jackson's
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: niece when he was a teenager, and she kind of,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: you know, explained that Wade is an opportunist, you know,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: he that's why he was praising Michael like crazy, because
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: he was trying to you know, profit off Michael's fame.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: And then when that route dried up and he couldn't
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: get the Circus Lay job and his career was sort
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: of drying up, he went the other route, which is
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: again consistent with an opportunist, is to say, well, okay,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: well then he molested me, you know, give me some
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: money for that, and that's what it appears to be happening.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: And then James Safechuck he saw Wade Robson on TV
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: and then he claims, oh, I suddenly remembered I was
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: molested by Michael Jackson too, and he also then files
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: a civil lawsuit. And these suits are still pending in
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: the courts. But in their suits they have to claim
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: that most of their life they didn't know Michael Jackson
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: molested them because of the statute of limitations, so they
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: have to claim they didn't realize until you know, much
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: later in life that they were molested and that's why
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: they're coming forward now. But there's egregious lies they told,
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: like and leaving Neverland. I think the most egregious lie
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: is that James Safechuck talked about how like in the
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: late nineteen eighties and the honeymoon phase of his relationship
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: with Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Jackson would molest him
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: in the Neverland Trains station. Problem is an Neverland train
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: station was not built until nineteen ninety four, when safe
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Check was bigger than Michael Jackson, and safe Chuck declared
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: under penalty of perjury that all molestations stopped in nineteen
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: ninety two, and the reason it stopped was because he
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: had gotten too big for Michael Jackson. So how are
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: you getting molested in the late nineteen eighties in a
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: train station that doesn't exist until nineteen ninety four, you know?
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: So they say like no one will ever know the
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: truth except the two people in the room. Well we
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: know the truth because the room didn't exist, right. So
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: it's just these kind of like blatant lies that Wade
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: and James have been caught in. And there's other ones
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: like James claimed that Michael begged him to testify in
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: two thousand and five, which is complete nonsense because Michael
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: didn't even put on a character defense. Like I said,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: the reason that the other boys were asked to testify
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: is to, uh, is it to respond to testimony by
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: these witnesses who claimed they were molested. Like, no witness
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: came and claimed safe Check was molested. There was absolutely
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: no reason for him to testify in that trial. So
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: just so many things that they say I'm leaving Neverland
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: that are just easily debunked and complete nonsense, but the
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: media ran with it like it was true.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Who in Michael Jackson's circle actually knew the truth.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people knew the truth because
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: I listened to like tons of interviews because back then
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: the media wouldn't really interview people who knew Michael or
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: and who knew Michael well. But today there's podcasts that
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: interview people who worked at Neverland, who people who worked
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: in the studio with him, And I must have listened
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: to hundreds of those interviews. They all spoke very highly
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: of Michael. They all said he was extremely kind. Not
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: a single one of them thought he was capable of
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: molesting a child, and so no one around him thought
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: he was guilty. You know, when the after his acquittal,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: when he came back to Neverland, there's like one hundred
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: staff that work at Neverland, they all like held hands
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: together in the air to welcome him back because none
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: of them thought, you know, none of them believe these allegies,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: and so no one around him believed the allegations. But
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: the problem is the media would give airtime to people
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: that like barely knew Michael that would make insinuations, and
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: so the public is not aware that no one around
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Michael took these allegations seriously.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: And the media made it looked like he was isolated.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, correct, and he was isolated in a lot of ways,
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: but he you know, he did have a lot of
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: people he worked with that, you know, really looked up
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: to him and really liked him and thought very highly
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: of him.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Wontic. I'm wondering if if there's a lesson here. Musicians
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: like to talk about, you know, what they do as art,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: and art is about expression. I mean, how free are
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: such artists ready to express themselves?
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: No, that's an absolutely brilliant question. And I actually asked
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: that question and an introduction in my book, and I
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: think Michael kind of asked that question as well in
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: his song they Don't Care About Us. I don't remember
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: his exact words, but he basically asked, the question you
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: just asked is like, you know, why am I not
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: free to say what I want to say? You know,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: I thought your proclamation offered me liberty or something like that,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: he said in the song, And it is true. So like,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: because the entertainment industry is very controlled. You know, we
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: always think of the news as being very controlled, and
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: we think of the news as propaganda, But the entertainment
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: industry a lot of times is owned by the same companies.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: It's pushing the same propaganda. And so when you have
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: an artist that isn't towing the line, that's a big problem.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: You know. So art is like because John F. Kennedy said,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: you know, art is the most political. Art is political
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: in the most profound sense. So he understood that, right.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: But so I think if you try to get political
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: in your art, you do get shut down. Like you
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: can make people dance, you can make them have fun,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: that's okay. But as soon as you start actually you know,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: impacting culture, like impact, you know, getting people to think
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: or really trying to speak your truth, that's when you
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: get shut down. And I think with Michael it was
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: like he became so famous when he was a kid,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: so the industry's gonna have to worry about him being
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: a threat. You know, he was just a kid. He's
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: sang whatever songs he was given. And even when he
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: came out with like Off the Wall and Thriller, those
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: were not you know, threatening albums or whatnot. But then
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: as he got older and he got more outspoken, he
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: did become a threat, you know, And he wasn't free
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: to do art anymore. He was free to entertain to
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: an extent, but not free to do art.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: I was just thinking, now, I think Billy Jean is
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: probably one of the greatest songs ever written.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, and it's so much of his music is
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I think he just had such a unique talent, such
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: an incredible talent.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Do you think he wanted to die?
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I mean, I'm sure he like
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: because he loved his children and right, so.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Hang on, But it was an overdose. Oh, I'll say,
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: quote unquote an overdose. Do you think they might have
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: been malicious activity?
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: I'm agnostic on that. So basically what was happening is
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: so he was preparing to do these concerts in London
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: and when he performs, you know, when you're perform you
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: get so much adrenaline that you can't calm down after,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: you can't sleep after. He needs a few days to
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: calm down after each performance. But they wanted him to
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: rehearse every day. He's like, I can't rehearse every day
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: because I can't calm my body down and I can't sleep,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: And so he tried natural ways that they weren't working.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: So he finally went to Murray who gave him the
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: propofol to sleep, but He was first seeing this holistic
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: nurse practitioner who was trying to help him with natural ways,
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: and he told her about the propofile and she's like,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: you're absolutely insane. Don't go anywhere near this stuff. It's toxic.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: Here's all the side effects, but he didn't listen to her.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: He went with Murray in the propofol, and a couple
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: of days before his death, he was starting to have
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: all these side effects that the nurse had told him about,
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: like half my body is hot, half my body is cold,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: and he reached out to her. I think she was
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: in Florida somewhere. She was out of town, and he
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: reached out to her through who at the time was
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: his head of security. This wasn't Michael's normal security, it
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: was the security he had to prep for the concerts.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: So I'm not sure who hired the security, but this
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: guy ended up being Ditty's head of security later, so
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but you know that's right.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: There is suspicious in and of itself, but in any case,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: through his set head of security, he called this lady
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: and said, I want to see you, like, I'm having
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: all these side effects you told me about I really
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: need to see you. So it seemed to me like
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: he was having second thoughts about the propofal because you
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: don't usually call someone who's castigated you and asked them
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: for help unless you realize that that someone was correct.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: And so anyway, she says she'll be back in town
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: on the twenty fifth, the afternoon of the twenty fifth. Well,
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: he died on the morning of the twenty fifth, So
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: that to me is the strongest evidence if there was
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: foul play. That to me is the strongest evidence for
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: it because of the timing, because he looks like he
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: wants to get off, he's having second thoughts. Now suddenly
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: he dies. But I can also just see it being
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: an accident because you are playing with fire when you're
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: taking that strong of a drug. You know, Murray didn't
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: have the proper equipment. It is possible that he just
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: messed up. And so I'm sort of agnostic on it.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: I can see it going either way, but certainly there's
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: it's a very very strange death. There's no doubt about that.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: He was fifty with something, wasn't he.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, fifty, And it would have been interesting go ahead.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Would he died in two thousand and nine, so he
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: would be like sixty seven, I think, or close to it.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: He'd be turning sixty seven in August, I think. But
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: it would be interesting to see how those London concerts
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: would have went, you know, whether that would have propelled
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: him back into superstardom or because those things sold out
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: like insane. I mean, I think they were the fastest
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: selling concerts and history, so the public still was, you know,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: dying to watch and perform. You know, he always really
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: appreciated the people that question the media and that didn't
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: buy what the media was saying about him. So I
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: think he'd really appreciate how much more widespread that is
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: today and that you know, there are a lot of
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: people who have seen through it and a lot of
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: people who still absolutely love his music. You know, I
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: think he'd be thrilled to see because I think this
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: biopic that just came out, I think it's gross close
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: to a billion or probably will surpass a billion. You know,
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: I think he would. I think it's just called Michael
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: the movie. His nephew is playing Michael Jackson. It's very positive,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: so and I know it's growth. You know, it's been
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: like one of the top movies in the world the
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: last few weeks. So I think he would be absolutely
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: thrilled that despite all the lies and all the bs,
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: you know, there are still so many out there that
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: love his music and love his art.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: Would you say that this movie I'm Sorry is a thriller,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: it's a terrible joke.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: That's a good job.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed it.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: I'm really hopeful that there's going to be a part
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: two because the movie ended in the late nineteen eighties
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: and it kind of hinted that there might be a
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: part two, and I really think it's important that they
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: do a movie about the allegations and the second part
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: of his life. So I really hope there's a part two.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: But I enjoyed the movie. I did enjoy it.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, so I'm going to make an
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: effort to watch it. Okay, I'm going to come in
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: for landing here with you, and I'll read one more
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: line from his music. If you want to make the
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: world a better place, take a look at yourself and
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: then make a change. And I think that's really really profound,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: because everything comes back to you first and foremost.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually that's from Man in the mirror, And
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: in his autobiography, you know, he said the philosophy of
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: Man in the Mirror was the same as JFK's philosophy,
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: because that's what JFK said in his peace speech at
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: American University, you know, he said, if you want to
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: stop war, you have to look inward, not outward. And
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: so Michael Jackson is spreading the same message that John F.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: Kennedy was spreading, which is, if you want to make
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: the world a better place, you have to do it yourself.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: You have to look at what your your contributions to conflict,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: your contributions to you know, division and to war, and
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: you have to change your own behavior to make the
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: world a better place. And so I think the two
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: of them were very similar in that way, and Michael
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Jackson saw that similarity similarity and he called it out himself.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: All right, Monica, how can I follow your work?
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: So I on x and just it's just my name
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: is the handle, and I tend to like post clips
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: of JFK speaking every day on there, just various like
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: inspirational things that he said. Occasionally I'll post about Michael
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: on there, and then that's the only social media that
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: I'm on yeah, oh substack, Yes, I forgot about that.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: I did open a subs zack recently, so I do
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: occasionally post an article on there as well.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for that, all right, Monica we Sak.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me in the trenches.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on