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Chris Fabry Live - When Sleep Won't Come · Disciple Radio

0:05
S1: I have been looking forward to this program for several
0:08
S1: weeks and really longer than that, because I know today's
0:10
S1: topic is going to resonate with a lot of people.
0:14
S1: My question on Facebook is this what do you do
0:17
S1: to cope when sleep won't come? What do you do
0:21
S1: with the restlessness you have at night when you fall asleep,
0:25
S1: and then you wake up and it's morning, but it's
0:28
S1: only 1 a.m. asking for a friend. Doctor Matt Rarer
0:32
S1: is going to join us straight ahead on the program.
0:34
S1: From the heart to the heart for the heart. If
0:36
S1: you or someone you know has problems with sleep or
0:40
S1: featured resource might be just the encouragement that you need.
0:44
S1: The title is When Sleep Won't Come. Help and Hope
0:48
S1: for Body and Soul. That's our topic. Let's jump in
0:51
S1: first with a thank you to Ryan McConaughey doing all
0:54
S1: things technical. Tricia's our producer, Lisa's helping out. Josh will
0:57
S1: be answering your calls. And thank you to those who
1:00
S1: are helping us celebrate Christmas in October. I chose for our.
1:03
S1: Thank you this month for anyone who supports us. Nancy
1:06
S1: DeMoss Wolgemuth 31 day Advent Devotional. Consider Jesus Meditations on
1:13
S1: the Person and Work of Christ. Most people and the
1:16
S1: culture don't have a problem with Jesus in the manger.
1:18
S1: He's cute and cuddly, and look at the animals in
1:21
S1: that pristine barn that he's in. And the manger. It's
1:24
S1: the grown up Jesus that people are more uncomfortable with
1:27
S1: for good reason. Jesus was on a mission only he
1:31
S1: could accomplish for you and me. He was born to
1:34
S1: die and then to live again for you and me.
1:38
S1: Let that captivate you with this thank you that we
1:41
S1: have for you right now. But hurry. Less than two
1:43
S1: weeks left on this offer, you can call or click
1:47
S1: through 86695FABRY or (866) 953-2279. Or you can go to the
1:56
S1: website if it's easier for you. Chris Fabry live.org. Scroll down.
2:01
S1: You'll see the. Thank you. Right there. Become a one
2:04
S1: time friend or a once a month giver called a
2:09
S1: back fence partner right there. Chris Fabry live dot ORG.
2:13
S1: And thank you for your support of the radio Backyard fence.
2:17
S1: Doctor Matt Rarer is an emergency medicine physician in the
2:21
S1: San Francisco Bay area, and he also serves as a
2:24
S1: pastor at North Creek Church. He helps people in times
2:28
S1: of need where medicine, suffering, and faith intersect. He's the
2:32
S1: author of a book titled Redeeming Memory How God Transforms
2:38
S1: Memory From a Heavy Burden to a Blessed Hope, which
2:41
S1: I think in a way, might go along with his
2:44
S1: latest When Sleep Won't Come help and hope for Body
2:48
S1: and Soul. He's a contributor to the Christian Counselors Medical
2:52
S1: Desk reference. He and his wife, Kara, have three children. Matt,
2:56
S1: it's great to meet you today. Thanks for coming on
2:58
S1: the program.
3:00
S2: Yeah, thanks for having me on, Chris. This is great.
3:02
S1: What do you as an emergency medicine physician, what do
3:05
S1: you treat? Do you treat everything? Trauma, heart attacks, everything?
3:11
S2: Yeah, we're kind of. The E.R. is the gatekeeper for
3:14
S2: the hospital. So anything that you are concerned about want
3:18
S2: to be seen for an emergency? A trauma would start
3:21
S2: in the emergency room. Any type of pain, we see
3:25
S2: all of it. So, yeah, I have a very broad
3:28
S2: base of knowledge and then involve a lot of specialists
3:32
S2: as needed to help.
3:33
S1: Is this what you wanted to do when you were
3:35
S1: a kid? I want to be an emergency medicine physician.
3:40
S2: No, I think this really started when I was in
3:42
S2: high school. And after a missions trip I had done overseas,
3:46
S2: I got exposed to medicine in a third world country
3:51
S2: where there was nobody able to help. And that's kind
3:53
S2: of what got me started on the journey. And emergency
3:57
S2: medicine just gave me a, I thought a skill set
4:00
S2: I could really transfer to a bunch of different contexts.
4:02
S2: So that's kind of how I ended up laying in there.
4:04
S1: Well, it's kind of like what a pastor is doing too.
4:07
S1: I mean, not every moment of every day, but you're
4:10
S1: treating people, you're giving triage and trauma on the soul level, right?
4:17
S2: There is a lot of, I think, overlap between the
4:20
S2: two with medicine and then care for the soul because
4:25
S2: you're listening, asking questions, you are triaging, you're helping think
4:30
S2: through what's the best ways that we can provide care
4:34
S2: for somebody. And now it moves from the body into
4:36
S2: the soul. So I have seen a lot of overlap
4:39
S2: and I think really sweet for a Christian to be
4:42
S2: able to be in medicine is that overlap that you
4:44
S2: see seeing the person as a whole person, body and soul.
4:48
S1: Yeah. All right. Let's talk about sleep. Did this topic
4:51
S1: choose you or did you choose the topic?
4:55
S2: Probably a little of both because, uh, I one of
4:59
S2: the reasons I started thinking about this was because I
5:01
S2: was not sleeping well. Some of that may be attributed
5:05
S2: to shift work in the emergency room. Others just the
5:08
S2: things that were going through my head and how I
5:10
S2: was processing. And so there was that. And then I
5:12
S2: was seeing patients in the ER where they were coming
5:16
S2: in sometimes in distress because they couldn't sleep and sometimes
5:20
S2: in extreme situations, not sleeping at all for like 3
5:24
S2: or 4 days in a row. And then meanwhile, in
5:27
S2: the church and counseling context, I was finding that sleep
5:30
S2: was giving a window into somebody's soul because you start asking, well,
5:35
S2: what is keeping you up at night? What's going through
5:38
S2: your mind? And all of a sudden you're getting into
5:41
S2: another layer of somebody's life very quickly.
5:44
S1: Right? Isn't that part of the problem, the feeling that, uh,
5:50
S1: outside of medication. This is out of my control or
5:55
S1: there are things that I can do. I can make
5:57
S1: the room cooler. I can, you know, keep the devices away,
6:01
S1: that kind of thing. But in a great extent, to
6:05
S1: a great extent, I don't have control of this. And
6:10
S1: that bugs me. Is that true?
6:14
S2: Oh, I think if somebody has recognized their lack of
6:18
S2: control in sleep, that's actually a huge hurdle for many
6:21
S2: of us. We try to do everything we can to
6:25
S2: get ourselves into a place, a condition that we're going
6:27
S2: to be able to fall asleep. And one thing that
6:29
S2: I've learned about sleep is there's a lot of surrender
6:32
S2: needed there because you can't really buy sleep, you can't
6:36
S2: make it happen. It really is a gift from the Lord.
6:39
S2: And so that mentality or mindset that I'm not in
6:42
S2: control here is actually really a big step in somebody
6:46
S2: addressing their sleep problems on the spiritual side, I think.
6:51
S2: But that's also why it's frustrating.
6:53
S1: Exactly. And that and that the God quotient, then, you know,
6:57
S1: if he cares about me and he made me to
6:59
S1: sleep and I'm not sleeping, why hasn't why hasn't he
7:04
S1: shown up and given me that gift that you're talking about?
7:09
S2: Yeah. There's a distinguishment I try to make in the book.
7:13
S2: As I was walking through this, one of the things
7:15
S2: that really came to the surface for me. One, the
7:18
S2: Bible talks a lot about sleep. Like you actually see
7:20
S2: it much more than you realize when you start thinking
7:23
S2: about it and focusing on it in a theology of sleep.
7:26
S2: But one of the facets that's really amazing about sleep
7:32
S2: when you're trying to work through the process of what
7:35
S2: is keeping me up, what is sleep is realizing it's
7:38
S2: a gift, but it's not a promise. Like, God made
7:42
S2: it this way for you. There's a lot of benefits
7:44
S2: we might talk about today of why it's good to
7:46
S2: sleep And as a dependent creature. Why he made you
7:49
S2: that way. The promise, though, is actually that you will rest.
7:53
S2: So that's what God promises. So when you can't sleep,
7:56
S2: part of the way that I frame this book is
7:59
S2: to how to rest. Then when you can't sleep, how
8:01
S2: to rest in the promises that God has given when
8:04
S2: sleep won't come. And that's a distinguishment that's subtle, but
8:07
S2: I think important as we walk through the topic.
8:10
S1: Is it true? Because I've heard people say, well, nobody,
8:12
S1: nobody's died from not getting sleep. Is that true?
8:18
S2: So it's really hard to prove that the I actually
8:23
S2: addressed this in my book, that there were studies done
8:26
S2: prior to a lot of the current laws of animal
8:29
S2: cruelty out there on rats, trying to keep rats up
8:33
S2: as long as you could and seeing what happened. It
8:34
S2: turns out they would die days into being sleepless. They
8:39
S2: would do autopsies on rats and they could not find
8:41
S2: an identifiable cause. It's not like there was a heart
8:44
S2: attack or a stroke associated with sleeplessness, but it did
8:48
S2: seem to lead to. Eventually the rats dying. And so
8:52
S2: with human beings. Thankfully, we haven't been that cruel to
8:55
S2: be able to know if that actually were to occur.
8:58
S2: But it looks like there's enough health benefits associated with it,
9:02
S2: and the need for renewal and refreshment at night on
9:06
S2: a number of metabolic levels that eventually bad things do
9:09
S2: definitely happen. Even if you can't prove you die, it
9:11
S2: sure looks like you probably would.
9:13
S1: Well, and if yeah, and you and you want to,
9:15
S1: because you can't, you can't get to sleep and and
9:18
S1: you're so frustrating. And I have I told you before
9:22
S1: the break, before the program started that there's a listener
9:25
S1: who will email me periodically and just say, would you
9:29
S1: pray for me, I cannot sleep. And she's identified a
9:33
S1: lot of the things in there, but it's just you
9:36
S1: can tell she's just this just frustrated with where she
9:39
S1: is and she wants sleep to come and it won't.
9:45
S1: And that's why when I saw the title of your book,
9:47
S1: When Sleep Won't Come help and Hope for Body and Soul,
9:51
S1: I said, we've got to get Doctor Matt rarer on
9:54
S1: REHRER is his last name. We have the book length@chris.org.
10:01
S1: I'm going to open the phone lines. Is this you?
10:04
S1: Do you resonate with this sleep topic? Love to hear
10:08
S1: from you. Eight. 775483675. Before we get back to the program,
10:17
S1: a quick note for you. This segment includes a song
10:21
S1: that we can't play for copyright restrictions. Sorry about that
10:27
S1: and thank you for understanding. You can hear it. You
10:32
S1: can hear the longing. You can hear the hope. I'm.
10:35
S1: I'm trying to get to sleep. I want to pass
10:38
S1: under sleep's dark and silent gate. and I cannot get there.
10:44
S1: And if you know anything about the the lyricist there,
10:47
S1: Jackson Browne, he wrote that shortly after his own, his
10:54
S1: wife died and he was dealing with that loss. He
10:57
S1: was dealing with the future, with the past. It kind
11:00
S1: of goes back to Matt's other book, Redeeming Memory. Doctor
11:04
S1: Matt Rarer, REHREER. Emergency medicine physician and a pastor in
11:12
S1: California is joining us today. His book is When Sleep
11:15
S1: Won't Come help and Hope for Body and Soul. Matt,
11:19
S1: do you resonate with those lyrics at all?
11:22
S2: Yes. I think for a lot of people, sometimes circumstances
11:27
S2: in their life, like, um, the lyrics there that were
11:29
S2: generated from loss, that's, that can definitely be a reason
11:33
S2: that we're up late at night processing, thinking through the
11:38
S2: ramifications Of of a loss and grief, both of who
11:43
S2: you're missing and then how it applies to your own life.
11:46
S2: And I definitely have found that when people are sleeping,
11:51
S2: they're like, why is it that I could be up
11:52
S2: all day and everything seems fine? I lay down at night.
11:55
S2: It's like the darkness is a megaphone for my problems.
11:59
S2: And it's because now it's quiet and you're alone with
12:02
S2: your thoughts. And I think things like these circumstances stresses
12:06
S2: that we go through. All of a sudden they're right
12:08
S2: in front of you, um, needing to be dealt with
12:10
S2: both processing the day before and then thinking about the day,
12:13
S2: the day coming up the next day. So yeah, I definitely,
12:17
S2: I definitely resonate with where the, where the lyrics are
12:20
S2: coming from there.
12:21
S1: My daughter got married a few months ago, and they
12:24
S1: are in the process of purchasing their first home, which is,
12:28
S1: you know, a really big, bigger struggle than I was
12:32
S1: thinking about the same thing. But I told them both
12:35
S1: when when we bought the first house, it was. I
12:39
S1: did not sleep a wink because of the financial burden.
12:45
S1: And are we going to be able to make it?
12:47
S1: And the interest rate was 10.5% back then too. But
12:50
S1: it was all these things. But it's the same thing
12:52
S1: now as I'm looking at them, it's like, how are
12:56
S1: we going to make this happen? And so that's why
12:59
S1: I think when you say there are theological reasons for
13:03
S1: this and the stirring inside, it could be a financial
13:06
S1: thing or deep loss or a prospect, you know, what's
13:10
S1: the future going to be when that starts to spin
13:14
S1: in your head, it can really prevent you from sleeping.
13:19
S1: Or do even worse, you fall asleep and then you
13:21
S1: wake up and you can't get back, right?
13:25
S2: Yeah. And for many people, I think what happens is
13:28
S2: you get these, this, this megaphone at night that reminds
13:32
S2: you of all the things that are going on during
13:34
S2: the day and the strains and, tension of your life.
13:39
S2: And then we kind of don't sleep very well. And
13:41
S2: then we just keep moving forward. One thing I do
13:43
S2: encourage people is to actually don't ignore those things. They're
13:46
S2: actually giving you maybe the clearest window of the deeper
13:52
S2: thoughts that you're having. And so instead of just going like, well,
13:54
S2: I didn't sleep very well last night, go like actually, okay,
13:58
S2: what was keeping me up again? Like I need to
14:00
S2: in the morning, during the afternoon, whatever's the best be
14:04
S2: able to process and then give those things to the
14:07
S2: Lord because they're not going to go away. They're going
14:10
S2: to keep coming up. And so it's an opportunity for
14:12
S2: identifying those areas and then seeking the Lord and growing
14:17
S2: in those things. And I think many of us, when
14:19
S2: we're not sleeping well, we don't think well, like generally
14:22
S2: your mind is, is somewhat discombobulated at night. And so
14:27
S2: it's helpful to then make a note of what you're
14:31
S2: actually dealing with and what's what's keeping you up.
14:34
S1: The first part of the book is an excellent treatise
14:36
S1: on why sleep is important, and that almost feels like
14:42
S1: a double edged sword. It's like I already know it's important.
14:46
S1: Give me the answer. Fix me. You know, this kind
14:48
S1: of thing. But but part of the what you're talking
14:52
S1: about there is that this is the way that God
14:55
S1: has designed us, has engineered us, that we need this.
15:00
S1: It's part of our humanity. Right?
15:03
S2: Yeah. I wrote the book, the chapter on the benefits
15:07
S2: of sleep with a little bit of trepidation, knowing that
15:09
S2: most people picking this up are reading it because they
15:12
S2: can't sleep, and then they're going, well, thanks insult to injury,
15:15
S2: you're telling me all the benefits. But the reason is twofold. One,
15:19
S2: it is to unveil or unwrap the gift that God's
15:23
S2: given and go like this. This gift is more than
15:25
S2: just your sleeping. There's there's a lot of activity that
15:28
S2: God does at night to refresh, restore your body and
15:32
S2: for you as well, your mind. But then also for
15:36
S2: those of us who are tempted to be self-sufficient and
15:39
S2: think we don't need sleep, or it's the first thing
15:41
S2: that we give away when we get busy because it's
15:45
S2: just a commodity to be tossed away. It is good
15:48
S2: to also have, I think, a check on ourselves to go. Actually,
15:52
S2: God made you this way for a reason. He gave you, um,
15:57
S2: this sleep to make you dependent on him, rely on him.
16:01
S2: And it has a lot of benefits when you surrender
16:04
S2: that to him. And so yeah, unfortunately, when people aren't
16:08
S2: sleeping well, I had somebody just tell me recently that
16:11
S2: was a tough chapter for me, but I pushed through
16:13
S2: and it was worth the push through because you kind
16:16
S2: of helped me then deal with my sorrow over the
16:19
S2: blessing of losing those blessings of sleep. Um, so yeah,
16:22
S2: that's just, I think something to be aware of.
16:24
S1: Yeah. I got a lot of comments on Facebook and
16:28
S1: our phone line is open if you want to talk
16:30
S1: with Doctor rarer REHRER. I'm saying that correctly, right? I
16:35
S1: didn't check beforehand.
16:37
S2: Yes. That's great.
16:38
S1: Okay. All right. Good enough. Good enough for the doc. Uh,
16:42
S1: if you want to call and talk with him. If
16:44
S1: there's a sleep issue that you have, or maybe somebody
16:47
S1: that you love is going through this. That's the other thing.
16:50
S1: If you have a spouse or you have a child
16:52
S1: who's going through this, how do you help them? Here's
16:55
S1: the number (877) 548-3675. The book is when sleep won't come.
17:02
S1: Featured resource@kris.org. And Pam's in Florida. Hi, Pam. Go right ahead.
17:08
S3: Hi. Yes. Um, I've kind of always had a problem with, uh,
17:14
S3: going to sleep as I was a single mom and
17:19
S3: had two boys, uh, retired nurse, and also, uh, have
17:24
S3: a business on the side. Um, I just have a
17:27
S3: very busy mind, and it seems like when I go
17:29
S3: to bed is when I start putting things together. Well,
17:32
S3: you have to do this. You have to do that.
17:34
S3: You have to do this, you have to do that.
17:35
S3: So shutting it off was not the easiest thing. But
17:39
S3: then when I do get some good sleep, it feels
17:42
S3: really good and you're refreshed and able to do a lot.
17:45
S3: But um, I am retired now. My my sons are
17:49
S3: grown up, but I do still take a low dose
17:52
S3: of medication to just help me shut it off. Um,
17:59
S3: so yeah, and I know I really have to get
18:01
S3: my sleep or I'm not, you know, fit.
18:04
S1: You bring up a really good point, Pam. That and that.
18:07
S3: Is.
18:08
S1: Why, why does that happen? It's like, right when I'm going,
18:12
S1: right when I'm settling down, right when I'm resting, it
18:15
S1: feels like these thoughts come and then spin and spur
18:20
S1: me on to, you know, want to write something down
18:22
S1: and get that done. And I can't sleep because I
18:24
S1: got to do this tomorrow and get keyed up. Matt,
18:27
S1: what do you say about that?
18:30
S2: Yeah, I think a lot of us probably relate to you, Pam.
18:33
S2: You were doing a lot. A nurse, single mom running
18:36
S2: a small business. I'm like, of course you've got a
18:38
S2: lot of things going through your mind. And, uh, when
18:42
S2: I think about that, like I was saying, I think
18:44
S2: a lot of times when you lay down at night,
18:46
S2: it's you're processing the day and also thinking ahead to
18:49
S2: the next. And one thing I found personally to help
18:52
S2: me is to have a small notepad or something next
18:56
S2: to my bed or something where if something pops into
18:59
S2: my head that I'm like, I'm, I need to do
19:02
S2: this tomorrow. There's anxiety associated with forgetfulness. Like, in other words,
19:11
S2: I don't want to forget this thing that I know
19:14
S2: I need to do tomorrow. And so I find it
19:17
S2: helpful to just write those things down and almost have
19:19
S2: a little time before bed, where I'm just processing what
19:23
S2: just happened and try to get that on paper, because
19:25
S2: then I'm not up wearing. I'm going to forget the
19:29
S2: the detail that maybe just came to mind.
19:32
S1: I do the same thing with the.
19:33
S2: That's helpful for people listening. I found that personally to
19:36
S2: be a helpful practice mat.
19:38
S1: I do that with a program. I have a, you know,
19:40
S1: a three by five car or whatever in front of
19:42
S1: me because you'll say something, I'll think of something. If
19:45
S1: I don't write it down, then I'll, you know, I'm afraid.
19:48
S1: And it's the fear, the fear that I'm going to forget.
19:51
S1: And I read a lot of books on writing. And
19:53
S1: Stephen King said, you know, they asked him, you know,
19:55
S1: when you get an idea in the middle of the night,
19:57
S1: he said, I never write those down. Because if it's
20:01
S1: a good enough idea in the morning, I'll remember. I'll
20:04
S1: remember it if it's important for me to remember. And
20:07
S1: so for him, he said, I don't spend my wheels
20:11
S1: with ideas that I get when I wake up at night.
20:13
S1: It's like, okay, so but but he's doing the same thing.
20:17
S1: He's letting himself off the hook of remembering this thing
20:21
S1: because if it really is important, it's going to come back. It's,
20:25
S1: the same process that you're talking about, isn't it? Yeah,
20:32
S1: I think we I think I'm not hearing him right. Ryan. Okay.
20:37
S1: All right. So we're going to get Matt back. Well,
20:40
S1: maybe he fell asleep. You know, maybe he's nodded off there. Uh, Pam.
20:44
S1: God bless you, friend. Thanks for calling us. If you
20:46
S1: go to the website chris.org, when sleep Won't Come is
20:52
S1: our featured resource help and Hope for Body and Soul. Uh,
20:56
S1: Matt Rarer is an emergency medicine physician in the San
21:00
S1: Francisco Bay area, and he also serves as a pastor
21:05
S1: at North Creek Church there. If you want to find
21:08
S1: out more about him and that other book that he wrote,
21:11
S1: I was looking at that just before the program today.
21:14
S1: I think they go together. Redeeming memory, how God transforms
21:19
S1: memory from a heavy burden to a blessed hope. Is
21:24
S1: this something that you're dealing with? The whole idea of sleep,
21:27
S1: and I see more of you who are calling in here. (877) 548-3675.
21:34
S1: Our number (877) 548-3675. Uh, Pam mentioned medication and I want
21:42
S1: to ask Doctor Rehrer about this because medication can do,
21:49
S1: you know, can be a really, really big help. But
21:52
S1: then if you become well Matt is back. Matt talk
21:57
S1: about the medication angle of this. If you are use
22:01
S1: medication to fall asleep. It's almost a double edged sword.
22:06
S1: You got to keep using it in order to stay
22:10
S1: asleep and stay sleeping. Talk about that.
22:14
S2: Yeah, it can become a double edged sword because I
22:17
S2: think for many people, their doctor will prescribe that to
22:21
S2: them and they start taking the medication, maybe not having
22:26
S2: fully understood even side effects or the potential to become
22:30
S2: more dependent on it or need increased doses. And so
22:33
S2: I think for, um, folks, when I write about this
22:36
S2: in the book, it doesn't say, I'm not saying don't
22:39
S2: ever take medicine. I think there's definitely times that are needed,
22:43
S2: but just do it with eyes wide open, understanding kind
22:46
S2: of the, the risks that happen when we take medication
22:51
S2: and understand that for most of the guidelines, they really
22:54
S2: are suggesting that you're on it for only a short
22:56
S2: period of time, if possible. I know that some people
22:59
S2: get into a spot where that's just not possible, but
23:02
S2: that's the recommendations, um, for there. And so hopefully that's
23:06
S2: helpful just in thinking through that really important, but also
23:10
S2: delicate conversation of sleep medication. Right.
23:14
S1: Right. Yeah. Um, and I mentioned to you before the program,
23:18
S1: it's like I have always and there's scriptural reasons for this,
23:23
S1: you know, thinking about older folks, having a little bit
23:26
S1: more difficult time sleeping or falling asleep or getting up
23:30
S1: in the middle of the night or waking early in
23:33
S1: the morning. Um, but that's not true. This hits all ages,
23:39
S1: doesn't it?
23:41
S2: Yes. I, a lot of people do struggle to sleep.
23:44
S2: You can definitely have challenges with aging because your body
23:47
S2: changes even in your circadian rhythm and your sleep cycles.
23:51
S2: They adjust and change as you age. You lose that, uh,
23:56
S2: deep non-REM stage that starts to go away. That's where
24:00
S2: all the learning and memory happens, which is unfortunate. That
24:03
S2: decreases as you age. But then also, um, there's more
24:07
S2: disruptors as you age. A lot of times facts of
24:10
S2: life biologically, you have to get up to use the
24:13
S2: restroom more than once at night. And other things that
24:16
S2: can affect that quality of sleep that disrupts your sleep happens.
24:20
S2: But there's definitely an issue for many adults. And even
24:24
S2: going into teenage years of sleeping well, and sometimes even
24:27
S2: for kids too. There's definitely some things that can cause
24:31
S2: problems there. So this is a pretty much everybody could
24:34
S2: be susceptible to having trouble sleeping.
24:37
S1: Especially in our technological world where people are going to
24:40
S1: sleep with their phones and other devices right next to them.
24:44
S1: And I want to talk with you about that. I
24:46
S1: also want to talk about how do you know when
24:49
S1: you need to go to a medical professional and deal
24:53
S1: with some of these things? When it crosses a line
24:56
S1: where it's like, I need to get somebody else in
24:59
S1: on this. Doctor Matt Rarer is an emergency medicine physician
25:03
S1: in the San Francisco Bay area, and he's a pastor there.
25:06
S1: His latest book is When Sleep Won't Come Help and
25:10
S1: Hope for Body and Soul. It's our featured resource today.
25:13
S1: I'm so glad he's on the program. And we're going
25:16
S1: to take your calls if you're on the line. Hang on.
25:18
S1: If you want to ask a question about sleep, you're
25:21
S1: having a struggle. (877) 548-3675. And do go to the website
25:29
S1: chris.org more straight ahead on Moody Radio. I knew this
25:47
S1: would hit a nerve because it's kind of underneath the surface,
25:50
S1: the silent struggle that many people are having when sleep
25:54
S1: won't come. What do you do? Doctor Matt Rare is
25:58
S1: with us today. REHRE are our featured resource. Is that
26:03
S1: book which is linked@chris.org. Back to your calls. But first
26:08
S1: here's an email from Mark Doctor Rarer. He says here's
26:13
S1: three suggestions. One. No caffeine or chocolate after 11 a.m..
26:18
S1: Two we took the TV out of the bedroom and. Three.
26:22
S1: Guard your mind from unwelcome imagery like gruesome images from
26:27
S1: crime shows. What do you think about that?
26:31
S2: Yeah, I think Mark is hitting on some key aspects
26:35
S2: of just being wise, particularly with your environment. He's mentioned
26:40
S2: a couple of things there. And then what you're putting
26:41
S2: in your body with caffeine. It's interesting because caffeine affects
26:47
S2: depend are different between different people because it is dependent
26:50
S2: on an enzyme in your body that breaks down caffeine.
26:53
S2: And some people's enzyme works really well and others doesn't.
26:57
S2: And as you age, it also stops working quite as well.
27:00
S2: And so is 11 a.m. rule is fairly consistent. I
27:04
S2: personally have a 2 p.m. rule, but it kind of
27:06
S2: depends on when you're going to bed and how well
27:10
S2: you handle caffeine. So he is right, I avoid caffeine
27:14
S2: about eight eight hours before going to bed and be
27:18
S2: aware it's in tea and chocolate and other things like
27:21
S2: he was pointing out. And then what you put into
27:24
S2: your mind, particularly the last 1 to 2 hours before
27:27
S2: you go to sleep, is impactful. And so that technology,
27:30
S2: like you mentioned, the TV being right there or your phone,
27:33
S2: what's you're filling your mind with, uh, you know, show
27:37
S2: that maybe has violence or suspense. All those things do
27:39
S2: impact how you sleep either to get to sleep or
27:43
S2: your sleep quality. And so those are excellent suggestions, very
27:46
S2: similar to some of the things that I bring up
27:49
S2: in my chapter on wise living when it comes to sleep.
27:54
S1: And if you go to Chris fabriclive.org, you'll see that
27:56
S1: book when Sleep won't come. Chris is in Florida. Chris,
28:00
S1: why did you call today?
28:03
S4: Uh, good afternoon gentlemen, thanks so much. I found this
28:05
S4: conversation rather intriguing. I have described myself as an incurable
28:10
S4: Insomniac for my entire life. I'm now retired and living
28:15
S4: in Florida. Supposedly living the good life. Cough cough choke
28:19
S4: choke and, um. Um. Since I've come here, my physician
28:24
S4: that's here has actually prescribed trazodone for me. And for
28:29
S4: the first time in my life, I actually found something
28:32
S4: that seems to actually assist me in being able to sleep. Now,
28:36
S4: I averaged 2 to 4 hours of sleep my entire
28:38
S4: adult life, and I just basically learned how to cope
28:42
S4: with it and live with it and how I was
28:45
S4: able to function. People would ask me my whole life,
28:47
S4: how did you how do you do that? I don't
28:49
S4: know that I have an intelligible answer, then just toughed
28:53
S4: it out. Um, so I found the title to his
28:57
S4: books very, very intriguing. But, um, obviously in my mind
29:01
S4: and in my heart, I'm a retired pastor. I would
29:04
S4: much rather not have to be, so to say, dependent upon,
29:09
S4: you know, a chemical or a prescription. However, for the
29:14
S4: first time in my life, I'm actually sleeping 6 to
29:16
S4: 8 hours a day. Wow.
29:18
S1: Um, what's that feel like? What does it feel like?
29:21
S4: I cannot even tell you. I'm like, I wake up
29:24
S4: every morning going, so this is what normal people enjoy
29:27
S4: every day. I there are no words.
29:31
S1: Yeah. Matt. Respond to that.
29:34
S2: Yeah. We were talking earlier with when Pam had called
29:38
S2: in and I don't know what part was disrupted or not,
29:40
S2: but about medication. And I think for a lot of people, um,
29:44
S2: just the, the benefits and risks need to be weighed.
29:48
S2: And for you, you would qualify that conversation about medication
29:54
S2: because of how severe your sleep deprivation was, the duration.
29:59
S2: A lot of times, you know, a lot of things
30:00
S2: will resolve, particularly circumstantial things within three months. So after
30:05
S2: three months, this can become a reason to consider medication,
30:09
S2: and then also just how impactful it is to your
30:11
S2: daily living. For some, they're so exhausted, you know, they're
30:14
S2: they shouldn't really be driving. They're falling asleep, almost like
30:17
S2: what seems mid-conversation. Those kind of folks. That's where medication
30:22
S2: can play a role. Even, you know, you can get
30:25
S2: so sleep deprived that you almost become a little psychotic
30:27
S2: or like confused, difficult thinking. So that's when medication plays
30:31
S2: a role. And there is a place for it and
30:34
S2: it can be helpful. I think you just need to
30:35
S2: go in with eyes wide open and know too, that
30:38
S2: it's not first line like there's other things to do first, um,
30:43
S2: which get mentioned in the book prior to medicine, but
30:47
S2: then for some medicine is where they need to be
30:50
S2: and then they're getting relief. Kind of like you've experienced. Chris.
30:52
S1: Yeah. Chris, thanks for your call. So, so some of
30:55
S1: those things, I'm guessing after looking at the book of
31:00
S1: the temperature of the room, when you go to sleep,
31:03
S1: the darkness of the room when you go to sleep,
31:06
S1: The lack of devices and electrical, uh, things that are
31:11
S1: going on around you, is that part of it?
31:14
S2: Yes, absolutely. There's a lot of environmental factors that I
31:18
S2: bring up, and many of which you're talking about even
31:22
S2: the idea of a clock. Some people would say, oh,
31:25
S2: the clock is so great. That's a relatively new thing.
31:28
S2: If you really look back the full time that we've
31:30
S2: had on our planet. But the clock even can cause anxiety.
31:34
S2: You wake up, you look at the clock and you're like,
31:36
S2: oh my goodness, it's only 2 a.m. or it is
31:39
S2: 4 a.m. or whatever. However your brain's processing, they found
31:41
S2: there's a lot of anxiety and worsening of insomnia with
31:45
S2: just looking at clocks. Noises can be disruptive, but one
31:50
S2: of the big things is people can be disruptive, like
31:53
S2: depending on your life and where the Lord has you caregiving,
31:56
S2: either as a young mom or caring for your aging parents, uh,
32:01
S2: or anything in between, you know, all those things can
32:04
S2: be disruptive to sleep, right? So there's just a lot
32:06
S2: of factors that can compound influence, impact, and how we
32:11
S2: sleep at night.
32:12
S1: Okay. So if I don't ask you this before you
32:14
S1: get off of here, you've got to to tell us
32:18
S1: what you mean by if you're not sleeping, how to
32:21
S1: get rest. But I want to go back to the calls.
32:24
S1: Becky's on the line. Becky, you're on with Doctor Rarer.
32:28
S5: Hi. My call comes just right with medicine on. I
32:35
S5: am surprised to find myself in my seventh decade of life.
32:40
S5: And me and all my friends suffer from no sleep.
32:44
S5: And I'm so grateful for your book. I want to
32:48
S5: ask you. All of us go to the pharmacy and
32:51
S5: we look at melatonin and all these gummies and stuff
32:56
S5: like that. Is that something we should be spending our
33:00
S5: money on, or should we just nix all those over-the-counter
33:04
S5: things that we could be buying to try to help
33:09
S5: us sleep.
33:11
S2: Yeah. Let me address the over-the-counter stuff, because you don't
33:14
S2: need to speak to a doctor for that. And you're
33:16
S2: exactly right. You're trying to inform yourself of like, what
33:19
S2: would be beneficial? Where do I spend my money? Um,
33:23
S2: let me quickly address melatonin because that's the one you
33:26
S2: mentioned melatonin. Some people maybe don't understand how it works. Um,
33:32
S2: it works at sleep onset, meaning if you can't get
33:35
S2: to sleep, it might be helpful to you, but you
33:39
S2: need to take it at the right time and in
33:40
S2: a proper dosage. Generally you're taking it 30 minutes to
33:43
S2: 60 minutes before you lay down and turn the lights off.
33:47
S2: You're trying to mimic what melatonin does in your own brain,
33:50
S2: which it's light dependent. So you're kind of trying to
33:53
S2: link your circadian rhythm there. The second thing though, is
33:57
S2: know that when you buy it over the counter, they've
33:58
S2: done studies looking at 31 different melatonin over-the-counter supplements because
34:04
S2: it's not FDA regulated. They found the amount in those
34:07
S2: supplements to be either 80% less than what was on
34:10
S2: the bottle, up to 400 and something percent more. So
34:14
S2: it's just you don't exactly know what you're taking, at
34:17
S2: least in the amount that you think you're taking that.
34:19
S2: And most people should be taking probably somewhere around one
34:23
S2: to up to ten milligrams. So that's one thing. Just
34:27
S2: to note, it's over the counter, not highly regulated melatonin
34:31
S2: specifically for sleep onset. Meaning if you woke up at
34:34
S2: two in the morning, you took melatonin. It's doing nothing
34:37
S2: for you. It's not helping anything. Um, so hopefully that's
34:41
S2: just a little window into that. The second thing is
34:44
S2: if you are in your 70s, people calling in that,
34:48
S2: that kind of decade of life. Don't neglect the nap.
34:52
S2: I am a big fan of naps, but you have
34:54
S2: to do it the right way, which means most people.
34:56
S2: A nap is ideally done about eight hours after you
35:00
S2: woke up. That will fall generally in early afternoon, but
35:04
S2: should usually only be up to 30 minutes. NASA did
35:07
S2: an amazing study showing that the ideal nap is about
35:11
S2: 26 minutes, because you don't want to get so far
35:14
S2: into your sleep cycle. That actually causes you drowsiness and
35:18
S2: almost like a hangover feeling when you wake up. So
35:20
S2: big fan of naps. Lots of good things happen in
35:23
S2: a nap and utilize it if you're having trouble at night,
35:26
S2: particularly if you're in your seventh decade.
35:29
S1: Great call. Thank you. I saw somebody the other day
35:32
S1: say just off the cuff, I rub magnesium oil on
35:37
S1: my feet every night. And I never, never heard that before.
35:41
S1: And I just looked it up. And it says it
35:42
S1: is a popular evening ritual that promotes relaxation, soothes muscles,
35:48
S1: sore muscles, leg cramps. You know, that peripheral neuropathy. What
35:53
S1: do you say about magnesium oil?
35:56
S2: Yeah. And magnesium supplements are very popular right now for
36:00
S2: treating for sleep. And that's because it's a smooth muscle relaxant.
36:04
S2: And so for some, they're finding if they take magnesium
36:08
S2: before they go to bed, that it's actually been helpful
36:10
S2: to them. I don't think it's a panacea. Like it
36:13
S2: would fix everyone's problems, but for some people, they do
36:17
S2: seem to get some benefit from it. I, I've not
36:19
S2: looked into the oil itself, but just the actual pill
36:22
S2: supplements that people are taking. And there seems to be
36:25
S2: at least some directional data saying it might be helpful,
36:29
S2: but again, it's not for everybody and, um, and isn't
36:33
S2: going to cure, I think all of your, all of
36:35
S2: your problems, but it is something to look into.
36:37
S1: Matt. Rarer is an emergency medical medicine physician in San
36:42
S1: Francisco Bay area. He's a pastor as well. And his
36:45
S1: book is our featured resource at Chris Fabry live.org, where
36:50
S1: only the scratch in the surface of when sleep won't
36:53
S1: come help and hope for body and soul. Chris fabriclive.org.
36:59
S1: More straight ahead. Doctor Matt Rarer is our guest today
37:12
S1: at the back fence. When sleep won't Come. Help and
37:16
S1: Hope for Body and Soul. Featured resource at Chris fabriclive.org.
37:21
S1: I want to do this here because I don't want
37:23
S1: to push it to the end. When you can't sleep,
37:26
S1: you can still rest. Tell me about that.
37:31
S2: Yeah, thanks for asking, Chris. I, I think for me,
37:34
S2: that was probably one of the biggest lessons to be
37:36
S2: learned here. And what I think Jesus teaches us in
37:39
S2: Scripture is that even in sleeplessness, we can still find
37:43
S2: rest in the Lord. And actually that the sleeplessness provides
37:46
S2: you that opportunity to entrust yourself to him. And it's
37:50
S2: not easy, because I think for all of us as
37:52
S2: we're talking about this and people are calling in, Uh,
37:55
S2: it can be a very frustrating time to not sleep.
37:57
S2: And so to be able to order your mind in
37:59
S2: such a way that you see is an opportunity to rest. Um,
38:03
S2: really requires forethought and almost planning to try to get there.
38:06
S2: But that's the example we see from the life of Jesus, um, on,
38:11
S2: on a number of fronts. And I think for those
38:13
S2: of us who are suffering in sleeplessness, um, I end
38:18
S2: the book here because I think it's so pivotal is
38:20
S2: to realize you have a sympathetic savior. So one of
38:23
S2: the ways to rest is to pray. And I talk
38:26
S2: about actually a mnemonic cast to confess, ask, surrender, and
38:32
S2: thank the Lord, which is just a way to walk
38:34
S2: through prayer with him. But the reason he's sympathetic is
38:37
S2: because Jesus lived the longest day of his life. And
38:41
S2: one of the the most important days in our history
38:45
S2: on this planet as he went to the cross, sleepless.
38:49
S2: And it's highlighted by the fact the disciples can't stay
38:52
S2: up right there. They're actually falling asleep in the Garden
38:54
S2: of Gethsemane. And there's Jesus saying, you need to keep watch.
38:57
S2: This is an important time and a time to be alert.
39:01
S2: And then not only does he stay awake there to
39:03
S2: be arrested, he he stays awake all the way through
39:05
S2: his trials. Um, and then all the way to the
39:09
S2: cross as our sympathetic savior. And so when we pray
39:12
S2: to him and we come to him, we cast our
39:14
S2: cares upon him, he understands what it means to suffer
39:18
S2: and be sleepless, going right back to the cross. I
39:21
S2: think that was a huge impact to me when I
39:23
S2: recognized that.
39:25
S1: Yeah. And that's just part of the book that, uh,
39:29
S1: you know, because they're very practical things in here. But
39:32
S1: there's also that theological when sleep won't come, Cindy's in Michigan. Hi, Cindy.
39:38
S1: Go right ahead.
39:40
S6: Hello. Thank you for taking my call. Um, I have
39:44
S6: a few things that have helped me, and then I
39:47
S6: have a question. Um, one thing that has helped is
39:51
S6: going outside with sunrise. Getting the full light spectrum. Um,
39:56
S6: noticed a drastic change in my circadian rhythm. And for
40:01
S6: the first time, I'm waking up on time without an
40:04
S6: alarm clock. Um, I try to go out right at
40:08
S6: sunrise or within two hours. And now my husband is
40:11
S6: doing that as well and he's noticing the same benefit, um,
40:16
S6: sleeping a lot deeper as well. And then if I
40:21
S6: am laying down, um, really prior to getting up at sunrise,
40:27
S6: if I'm laying down and was finding that I was
40:29
S6: not able to sleep or I was getting certain things
40:33
S6: going through my head, I would try to renew my
40:35
S6: mind and start going through the A, B, C either
40:38
S6: praying for someone with a, you know, A, their name
40:43
S6: starts with A, B, C, or attributes of Jesus or
40:47
S6: things I was thankful for. that helped tremendously. I don't
40:51
S6: think I ever made it through the full alphabet. Um,
40:56
S6: no Wi-Fi, no alarm clocks, no phones, nothing electrical. We've
41:01
S6: done all that. Um, I think we have the best
41:04
S6: sleep we've ever had through almost 30 years of marriage.
41:08
S6: So all those things have helped. And then my question, though.
41:12
S6: I have a daughter in law who is going on
41:14
S6: her fourth year of working as an ER nurse, midnight.
41:18
S6: She does not have regular schedules as far as, you know,
41:22
S6: three days on, two off. It's variable. She can have
41:25
S6: six on, one off, two on, three off, etc. so
41:30
S6: just any anything you could recommend for her to get
41:33
S6: the true sleep that she her body needs for her health?
41:40
S6: I would appreciate that.
41:43
S2: Well, first of all, you're hitting a couple of really
41:45
S2: important points in your example. So people are listening. I 100%
41:50
S2: agree with early sunlight exposure. The Lord made it this
41:53
S2: way prior to all of our electricity. So that morning sunrise,
41:58
S2: what you're doing is you're telling your body it's time
42:00
S2: to be up. So throw those curtains open. If you
42:02
S2: can't get outside, it's very important in the first 30
42:05
S2: minutes to get early morning sunlight exposure. So you are
42:10
S2: exactly right. And there's actually a biologic reason that that's
42:13
S2: working for you. And then praying for others. What a
42:16
S2: great thing. Because when you can't sleep, it's all focused
42:18
S2: on you, right? Um, and I can't sleep. I can't
42:21
S2: do this. Great. Think about others. Think about the Lord. Um,
42:25
S2: I hope if I'm your friend, I've got an a
42:27
S2: name because I, whoever's got a Z name is getting
42:30
S2: left out of that. But, um, as far as your daughter, um,
42:35
S2: I can't remember your daughter. Daughter in law. That's the
42:36
S2: nurse in the E.R.. This is exactly why I looked
42:39
S2: into this, because I was struggling with the shift work.
42:43
S2: And there's things you can do to try to regulate
42:46
S2: or keep your circadian rhythm in order. And a lot
42:50
S2: of it has to do with exercise and food intake
42:53
S2: and light exposure. Just very basic things to help keeping
42:57
S2: your body attuned to the way that it's been designed,
43:00
S2: because we're working and covering to care for people in
43:04
S2: very odd hours. Right. And overnights. So I do have
43:08
S2: I probably have time to go into here, but just
43:09
S2: some tips on even that to try to help regulate
43:12
S2: your circadian. But two things you brought up 100% agree
43:15
S2: with them.
43:16
S1: Cindy, I'm glad you called today. Um, what have your
43:22
S1: spouse or somebody that you really care about is struggling
43:25
S1: in this area? Is it a good idea to ask them, hey,
43:29
S1: how'd you sleep last night? Or does that put more
43:31
S1: pressure on them?
43:34
S2: Well, the positive to asking that question, which I think
43:37
S2: we do ask a lot more than we realize. The
43:40
S2: positive is you're showing concern and giving that person a
43:43
S2: chance to actually express how things have gone to then
43:45
S2: be able to address it. Versus you don't ask and
43:49
S2: they don't share and you don't know what they're going
43:51
S2: through and what burdens they're dealing with. So I like,
43:54
S2: I think it's helpful to ask to be. But then
43:58
S2: you actually need to be a sympathetic ear and compassionate
44:01
S2: listener and try to help them, or at least be
44:04
S2: able to listen to their concerns and then listen for
44:07
S2: what's keeping them up. You can also ask them, was
44:08
S2: there something going through your mind? Is there a burden
44:11
S2: that's keeping you up? And then use that as an
44:13
S2: opportunity to, to, to be a listening ear and then
44:16
S2: a comfort and talking through that with them.
44:19
S1: We have one caller. We're right at the end of
44:21
S1: the program. She's helping her mom with dementia. And she said,
44:26
S1: sometimes I'll listen to scripture or I'll listen to worship
44:30
S1: music to kind of help me rest or sleep. Is
44:34
S1: that healthy or do I should I have silence?
44:39
S2: Oh, I believe filling your mind in that last hour
44:42
S2: before you go to bed is really important. So I
44:45
S2: would pick and choose your music wisely. Like no death metal,
44:48
S2: you know, or anything like that. But but having scripture
44:51
S2: focused or saturated songs, very helpful. Singing, frankly, was was
44:57
S2: replicated or seen in the life of Paul and Silas
45:01
S2: when they're in prison, right? They're up at midnight suffering.
45:04
S2: And so turning to songs in the night is very biblical.
45:07
S2: You see, the Psalm Psalmists do that a lot, singing
45:09
S2: songs in the night. So I'm I'm a big fan
45:11
S2: of that. Filling your mind with Scripture, especially the Psalms,
45:14
S2: I think is helpful.
45:15
S1: Yeah it is. It is a fascinating topic. It's one
45:19
S1: of our callers said, but it's one that cuts right
45:23
S1: to the very heart of personal struggles all around the
45:27
S1: country and those who are listening. I can tell by
45:29
S1: the response from folks that are calling in here today
45:32
S1: that it's you've touched a nerve. So, Doctor Herrera, thanks
45:36
S1: for your work. Thanks for putting it down on the page.
45:38
S1: That's going to help even more people and come back
45:40
S1: and see us real soon, okay?
45:43
S2: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on.
45:45
S1: Doctor Matt. Rarer REHRER has written when sleep won't Come
45:52
S1: help and Hope for Body and Soul. It's our featured
45:55
S1: resource at Chris Fabry live.org. Just scroll down and you'll
45:59
S1: see the link that we have for you there for
46:02
S1: his ministry. And pray for Doctor Rare, both as a
46:06
S1: medical professional there in the emergency room as well as
46:11
S1: a pastor. Again, When Sleep Won't Come is the title
46:14
S1: of that book. Now we're going to go back in history,
46:18
S1: way back in history with doctor Mark Yarborough and Jerry Jenkins,
46:24
S1: who will be with us tomorrow at the Radio Backyard Fence.
46:26
S1: Don't miss it. Chris Fabry Live is a production of
46:29
S1: Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.