Latest / Ridiculous History / Animals On Trial, Part 2: Legal Personhood "Goes Wild"

Transcript

Animals On Trial, Part 2: Legal Personhood "Goes Wild" · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the keeper of
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: our zoo, guest producer Paul Mission Control second.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: He's a very benevolent zoo keeper. He gives us treats
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: all kind hats and knows where just where it would
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: a scritch, right behind the ear.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: He lets us play with our phones too, which a
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: lot of primates can't do.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: That's what I got.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what a hilarious thing to discus over the I
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: believe it is the Toronto Zoo. Yes, sir, yeah, that
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: was has a mandate not allowing visitors to show the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: primates funny videos on their phones. Yes, yes, it was
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: causing them to experience some kind of disconnection from their
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: their you know, their mates.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: They fell for the TikTok treads. Apparently it made them
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: act and process things differently. I'm ben your nol. This
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: is an exciting two part series, at least two parts.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Like you said earlier, dude, this may be something where
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: we revisit with a part three, but for now we're
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: talking about animals on trial. Man.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, animals on trial. You know, we started off with
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: a laundry list of some kind of uh messed up
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: historical examples of animals being put on trial, maybe for
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: the a little bit more self serving, for for religious
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: and institutions.
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: Wine, This wine should be put to death, and it's
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: human owner shall be made to create a dowry such
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: that the iarless child may be married.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Perhaps in the hopes theref Yeah.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: But now well, and you know, in the back half
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: of the first episode, we moved much more towards modern
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: day of animal activist groups starting to kind of beat
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: the drum of animal you know, treating animals more like
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: people or at least giving them certain rights. And you know,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: we had some discussions of some laws that have passed
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: in you know, certain places in the country and in
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: the world requiring you know, more humane treatment of animals
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: before they are ultimately slaughter, which.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: I've always found kind of funny. I guess it's not.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, of course, you know, you don't want them
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: to be tortured and suffer.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously meat eating is a thing that's not
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: going anywhere. Can you imagine any of this ever going
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: to the extent of like it's illegal to kill.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Animals possibly, but if for that to happen, nol humanity
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: would be in a pretty dire situation already, right, like
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: biodiversity is decreasing at a profoundly disturbing rate. We know
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: that in the Anthropis scene, which is this current era
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: the age of Man, we know that Earth is experiencing
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: probably its sixth mass extinction. If you were listening now,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: then there were far more animals alive when you were
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: born than there are as you're hearing this episode. It's
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: a bad situation. And also, you know, I'm really glad
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: you bring up this idea about eating meats, as you know,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: because Noel and I do hang out off air with
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: each other. We are actually friends. As you know, dude,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: I was vegetarian and vegan for a number of years,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: and I I came back to becoming an omnivore when
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I was living in a place where I did not
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: have the privilege to control a diet that way. And sometimes,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: you know, we do have to remember, of course, for
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: any vegans vegetarians in the crowd, there are sustainable, non
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: cartoonish ways to practice veganism and vegetarianism. But for a
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: lot of people in the world, for billions of people,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: that is simply not an opportunity within their scope of experience.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: So we have to be like careful not to look
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: down on people for their dietary choices.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Sure, and just being you know, Devil's advocate here just
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: for a split second. Aren't there some people that go
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: so far as to make the argument that vegetables have
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: feelings too? I mean, they are they are living beings.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: You know, they require nutrients, They require certain conditions to
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: allow them to quote unquote live. And are we not
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: committing vegetable genocide when we plow the fields? You know,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, just there, it's a slippery slope. Plants do
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: communicate with each other. There's another stuff they want, you know,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: episode about that. There's some excellent research going on there,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: and slippery slope is absolutely correct in my opinion. It's
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: if given that humans don't have a definition of intelligence,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: nor sentience nor sapiens, where does it stop.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, what what is okay
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: to eat? And for any what are they called breath
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: arians in the crowd? Remember that scam where there was
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: like that one guy who's like, oh, you know, follow
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: me and you'll learn to subsist off just sun and
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: air didn't work out, by the way, spoilers.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: WO wouldn't think.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: So you can probably, you know, you can get some
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: you know, get some vitamins you know that way, but
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: not enough to subsist on and then to survive. But yeah,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, we we've heard about some of these activists
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: that have tried to give animals protection under laws, not
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: just using more modern laws surrounding animal welfare, but things
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: specifically that would be applied more to humans. Right then,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: the like for example, People for the Ethical Treatment of
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Animals PETA, which can be a very divisive group if
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: well meaning, whether it be through some of the extreme
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: imagery of their campaigns or you know, some of the
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: initiatives that they that they go after, which we're going
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: to hear about some of them that maybe you would
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: say are pushing the boundaries of insanity.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And in PETA's defense, of course, it's a huge,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: huge organization, right, so it will not always be internally uniform.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: There are gonna there is going to be dissent at
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: any time. So I love you're setting this up all right, PETA.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Once upon a time, sued A photographer David Slater. David
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Slater had been taking some nature photos of wild maccoq's
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: mccac's and one day these, uh, these creatures there very
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: very clever monkeys. They used his camera to take selfies
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: and Slater said, this is amazing and he's right, by
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: the way, it is a cool it's a cool series
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: of photos. And he published them, presumably.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: After getting them the ape to swipe for him on
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: tender right.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just so and so so. Peter sues David Slater
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: in federal court and they say, look, this photographer infringed
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: upon the copyright of the monkeys. The judge kicked this
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: suit out of court quick fasted in a hurry and said,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I am not the person weigh in on this. This
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: is an issue for Congress and the president one exactly,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, stop cancel everything on the president's schedule. We
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: need to talk about the monkeys selfies.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: What No, I get it though, right, because it is
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: just a big old ball of worms. I yeah, I
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: make some real metaphors there, but a barrel of macacus
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: is what this is. Because there is Yeah, you're one
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: hundred percent right, pin. It would unleash just an unbridled
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: slew of cases, you know, I mean, there would just
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: be it would be no stopping it. So you gotta
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: really be careful with this kind of thing. I do
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: think it's funny too, because doesn't copyright originate like on
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: the device sometimes too, So like if like even if
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: someone takes a picture using your camera and it's on
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: your device, can you really prove that? Well, I guess
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: you can prove it if it's a selfie. Never mind,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: don't listen to me, but it is interesting here, and
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: it does seem like one of these sort of symbolic
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: lawsuits that Pete is so fond of.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: No everybody listened to a If you are in court
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: for copyright, now you need to stand up. You need
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: to quote us up from Ridiculous History, right and say
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: from that show, from that show, Ridiculous History. And no
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: matter what anyone says, even if they agree with you,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: be sure to shout.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: You're out of order.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: This who courts out of order to which the judge
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: will apply. I am not the person to weigh in
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: on this. This is an issue for Congress.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: And the president. Take it right to the President's desk.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: So the judge, yeah, I mean jokes aside, the judge
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: is probably airing on the right side of caution here
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: because you will set a precedent, and that's what all
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: these cases are about setting precedent. So I think you're right.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: The judge said, I'm not touching this one. Other cases
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: around the world went further. In twenty thirteen, India's environmental
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: ministry said that citaceans are quote and we mentioned this
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: in that Legal Personhood episode on Stuff they want you
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: to Know. The government of India said, dolphins, whales, et
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: cetera at all are quote non human persons with quote
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: their own specific rights and that means you cannot keep
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: them sea world style for entertainment.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: A huge shout out to the economists again for some
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: of these bits, really really fantastic article there that highly
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: recommend you read the entire thing gradually nervously.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Courts are granting rights to animals.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Cetacean's been We talked in the last episode about how
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: pissed off dolphins and whales are at us.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: You know, I forget. I think it's called the Cove.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: There's a documentary about like the slaughter of dolphins in
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Japan and it's a pair. I haven't seen it because
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: it just seemed like such a bummer, but I've read
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: about and I'm aware. You know, dolphins are the victim
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: of some significant brutal slaughtering using.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Like lances, you know, So it's the whole thing.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: And obviously whaling is I believe illegal now, but it's
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: more because they're endangered, I think, than the fact that
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: they're like sentient. I don't think it's a humanitarian you know,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: on the part of the I think it's more like
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: their protected species.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The issue is that the majority of the human
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: world is against whaling, but you can still you can
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: still see whaling in practice, particularly in Norway and Japan.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: In some cases it's advertised as like a tradition. Japan
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: did something really sketchy for a number of years where
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: they said they were culling whales for research purposes. Yeah,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: they were researching them into a plate, you know what
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's very similar with the cove and dolphins,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: only that takes place in Japan as well. So the
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: fact and again we also know that these creatures communicate,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: you know, using sonar, you know, and you communicate through
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: great distances underwater and that they are incredibly intelligent. If
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: you've seen the latest Avatar movie, James Cameron clearly has
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: an axe to grind in this argument. There's a whole
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: you know, save the Whales kind of vibe to that.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Movie Way of the Water. Mm hmm. Yeah.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I thought it was really great. I really enjoyed it.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I was not expecting to give two hoots about Avatar two,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: but I.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: Very much enjoy it.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: That James Cameron really knows what he's doing in the
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Avatar world at Disney is remarkable.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So also quote that in Quurte quote Avatar to Way
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: of Water. The year after India says no more citationans
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: kept for entertainment purposes, their Supreme Court says another has
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: another ruling that's profoundly fascinating. They say, look, all animals
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: have an inherent right to life under the Constitution of India,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: but they can still be property, so like you can
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: still own chickens, but they do deserve to live. And
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: this case specifically revolved around a practice called forgive our
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: pronunciation here, folks Jali Cartou, in which men would take
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: possession of a young bull a male cow, and they
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: would tame it through torture, they would tame it by
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: mutilating it. And the court said, look, every species has
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: a right to life and security, and our view life
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: means something more than mere survival or instrumental value for
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: human beings. I love that. That is such a mic
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: drop moment, you.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Know, totally we get at least we could take that
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: advice with the way we interpret the Constitution, you know,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: the idea that when we have the right to life,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: liberty and of course the pursuit to have something, but
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: like life you know, in other countries means a hell
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: of a lot more than it does here in the
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: United States. You know, we do not have the right
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: to life in that we get like healthcare provided for us.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: You know, there are many that absolutely don't have the
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: right to life, you know, under that interpretation.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Of the Constitution. So this is pretty progressive, pretty wild.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: It does make me think too bad about I mean
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of these issues too, of animal cruelty that
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: are sort of like supported by tradition, you know, and
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: in history, like bullfighting, you know, which is obviously pretty horrific,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: but it's there's such a history of it, you know,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: it's such a legacy behind it, like whole families that
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: every generation is like, you know, a matador or whatever.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So it's like, what are your thoughts on things like that,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: and how these conversations apply to ultimately quite brutal practices
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: that are you know, abusive of animals but are really
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: really popular.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Like fois gras, like veal as. That's a negotiation to make. Yeah,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: it's a good question, man, because ultimately, hopefully without sounding
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: too cynical, I would pause it that it's the money
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: that moves so for something that is a great economic benefit,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: you know, like bullfighting, it's not surprising that there would
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: be a lot of perhaps disingenuous arguments about legacy and
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: tradition and on and on and on. Those all feel
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: like they're just kind of code words for saying, look,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: we make a lot of money off this, and we
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: need to continue profiting from it. Those practices are going
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: to stick around in some form or another, you know
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: what I mean. It wasn't too long ago in human
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: history where a great form of entertainment was to have
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a tied up captured bear fight dogs and yeah, or
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: bad audit, or a dude armed with a pointy stick
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: fight a lion, you know, in a pit.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I mean again, our very definition of humanity and personhood
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you know, has changed over time, Like in the time
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: of ancient Rome and in Greece and all that, a
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: slave not in the same as the slave trade that
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: we would have here in the United States would not
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: have been considered a person or a criminal is no
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: longer considered a person. And to a degree, you know,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: it gets complicated here when we think about the prison
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: system and like what rights actually you know, you're you're
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: stripped of rights when you do a thing, and oftentimes
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: we know based on We've had recent conversations with some
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: of the folks from.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: Lava for Good about the problems.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Within the prison the justice system quote unquote, and how
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: when someone is stripped of their rights because of a crime,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: even like their right to vote, isn't that removing a
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: certain amount of their personhood?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: You know? Right exactly? This is again even with humans,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the idea of personhood is something that humans wrestle with, right,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So while it may sound overly ambitious to start thinking
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: of other non human creatures as deserving of rights, it
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: is absolutely a path that would be overall a net
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: gain for the world, like for biodiversity, for the environment,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: probably for the economy at some point. The biggest legal
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: challenge that has arrived so far as we're recording this
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, the biggest legal challenges come from
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: attempts to give animals something called habeas corpus rights. Habeas
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: corpus is the idea that you have the body. We
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: always hear this in legal dramas, you know. It's essentially
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: it means in the human world, if you are under arrest,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: then you have the right to be bought before a
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: judge or into and they have to prove that there
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: is a lawful legal reason to keep you locked up.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Because they have you locked up, they have the body.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Now they have to prove that there's a reason they
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: have that. So so think about this applied to zoos. Right,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: If you are like Sousia, a chimpanzee in a Brazilian
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: zoo in two thousand and five, then animal rights activists
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: are going to fight on your behalf. This poor chimp
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: was found dead in her cage before the court could
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: rule in this habeas corpus case. And then it happens
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: in all these other places, happened in Europe as well.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I have to imagine man that in the Brazilian case,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: due to the you know, the animal obviously dying, that
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: there was a concern that the conditions were not good.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: They pursued this.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: But yeah, because I mean, again, we know that there
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: are certain zoo situations that are not bad, that where
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: the zoo keepers really are, you know, treating the them
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: all with respect and giving them a lot of attention,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: and they have maybe not the same amount of room
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: as they would in the wild, but they have a
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: good bit of room and a good facsimile of their
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: kind of natural habitat, and a lot of them. If
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: they were out in the wild, they wouldn't make it. Sorry,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I don't mean to keep sounding like a zoo apologist.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I just really appreciate that mission. Yeah, exactly, I appreciate
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: that mission, you know, when it's done correctly, and obviously
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: in cases like this where it's treated more like a
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: circus attraction, you know, or it's no ca I mean, probably.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: Some circuses are fine too, but it's all about.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: How the animals are treated, and in this case, obviously
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: it led to the untimely death of this creature. In
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: two thousand and seven activists in Austria applied to make
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: a member of their group the legal guardian of a
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: chimpanzee by the name of Hiel, which had been released
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: from a pharmaceutical lab. And in this case, the European
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Court of Human Rights rejected this application.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Boo, there you know what they're biased. You can tell
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: in the name European Court of Human Rights. Get out
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: of here, you're out of your depth.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately that's the thing, though the other one doesn't exist.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: And what you know, I was talking to a friend
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: of the show, Frank well Hern yesterday about how legal
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: conversation and like you discussing things that.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Are like legal codes or whatever like ye, that are
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: on the books.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because it kind of takes the whole idea
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: of like opinion out of things in a lot of ways,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: because we all know that laws are imperfect. But that's
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: not the point. We're not here to debate whether the
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: laws are right or wrong. We're here to work within
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: the framework of what exists. So you have to figure
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: out how to navigate all of this animal stuff within
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: a body that literally has the name human in the title.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: And then that's how this all started.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Was like you know, how do we navigate these human
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: laws and apply them to animals? Figure out a loophole
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: to get It's imperfect, all of it, you know, but
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: it is. It is what you have to do.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: And there is some good news as of late, human
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: rights or excuse me, animal rights lawyers have started to
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: win some cases in court. In twenty fourteen, Argentina's Criminal
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Appeals Court found that Sandra and orangutan and the Buenos
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Aire zou did count as a non human person and
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: they were This was an animal cruelty case, but this
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: was also a huge, huge win for animal rights. And
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: as longtime listeners may know, I have been going through
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: an orangutan rabbit hole obsession of late. So I'm pro.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I am pro arangutan man.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: The cool creatures, no question. So do you know cool
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: is chimpanzees?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: They'll also rip your head off if you mean to him,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: and so don't be mean to him. But Cecilia, a
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: chimpanzee in a zoo in Argentina, was declared a non
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: human person who had been deprived of her freedom by
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: being placed in the zoo.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: How about that.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Was ordered to be taken to a sanctuary in Brazil.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: You know, because I mean the difference between the zoo
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: and a sanctuary. The sanctuary is like a piece of
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: land that is more natural. It is a natural environment
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: that is predetermined, and you know, there obviously are boundaries,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: right like otherwise they would just escape and go into
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: gen pop or whatever. So, but it's not the same
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: as being held in a cage at a zoo.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: And then in twenty seventeen in Colombia, we see the
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court of that country ruling that Chucho spectacles, Chucho,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: a bear with spectacles, is counted as a non human person,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: and they say, look, we're taking him out of this
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: zoo and we're putting him in a wildlife reserve. Uh,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: he can keep his glasses.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: And I love the idea of a bear with spectacles.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I think I think it's a breed. You're right, right,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: you know, you were just I'm sorry. I'm sorry, that's all.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: We can't have nice things.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I just you don't know. The truth is important.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: And picturing the bear with glasses bouncing, dancing on a ball,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: spinning plates, you know.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: I I picture him like like Hank McCoy, like the
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: beast in the Marvel Years. I picture him in court,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: going like, you know.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: Do I not wear spectacles? You prick me? Do I
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: not bleed? Exactly? It's my fur not blue.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: But outside of South America, we haven't really seen a
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: lot of these arguments carry much water.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: It's unclear right now how to how to triage or priority?
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Right? Yeah?
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Like which species do the respect that you are supposed
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: to give human beings? You know, the short list is
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: always the super duper intelligent creatures. But should we sentence
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: other life forms to a brutal, horrifying existence and then
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: death just because they're dumb? If we start torturing and
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: killing living things just because they're dumb, a lot of
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: humans are going to have a bad day.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: No, no doubt.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And it's also the whole argument that we see about
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: animal testing, right. You know, obviously there are certain types
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: of animal testing that are inherently cruel, like we've talked
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: about with the cosmetic testing and certain pharmaceutical testing. But
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: it can't be overlooked that certain apes, you know, and
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: lab rats and such, you know, certain creatures that are
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: routinely used to study medications that can save human lives.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: So at that point it's sort of a balancing act.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: You know, you're sort of doing the whole weighing thing,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: like is which one is the greater you know species,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you know which one deserves you know, like as no
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: one's making the argument of doing you know, human testing,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: even though we certainly have in the past. Ben if
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: you want to find out more about that, read stuff
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: they don't want you to know.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Book.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: There's a whole chapter on human experimentation. There's very much
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: a thing, you know, that is not that far removed
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: from from the present time. But thankfully, at least you know,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: mainstream we've gotten past that.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed, And you know the law is a patchwork,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: and that that is the opinion of the pre eminent
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: experts on this field of study. We're talking about people
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: like Kristen Stilt, who teaches animal law at Harvard Law School.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Animals still lack rights, says Stilt, but the line separating
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: animals from people is getting increasingly eroded by these rulings
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: in India, Argentina, Columbia. And there are people who fire
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: back at this, who say that personhood might be a
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: nice idea, but it's not gonna work, And they're not
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: trying to be jerks. When they say this, they're entering
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: again into some philosophical moral quandaries.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: For instance, there's this idea that bestowing legal personhood on
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: an animal is at heart, it's meant to protect them
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: from the actions of humans. It's meant to protect them
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: from things like factory farming. Its to protect them from
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: lab research.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And I've been looking for an opportunity to bring this up.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I think I missed it when it first came up.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: But remember the story of Tusco, the elephant that was
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: used in LSD research the University of Oklahoma, was injected
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: with three hundred milligrams of LSD, which is about three
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: thousand times would be considered a human recreational dose, and
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: he died pretty quickly. It's not clear as to whether
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: the LSD caused him to die or whether it was
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: to help the stuff that they used to revive him.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: But yeah, to protect them from stuff like that. Yeah,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and we see these stories pop up, they go viral.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: In the media.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Right, look at this animal doing a crazy human like thing.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: This pig got drunk and then tried to fight a
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: bigger animal, or this bear did cocaine, or look at
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: this orangutang. They're dressing up like a person, you know,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: and these things, these stories, the reason they connect with
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: people is entirely because humans feel this fundamental connection, this
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: fundamental commonality with all living things. And if you look
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: at the legal system the humans have created, if you
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: want to force humans to treat animals as legal persons
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: and remedy that inadequacy of animal protection, then what you're
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: going to find is that it is kind of a
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: reaction to the systematic failure of traditional animal welfare laws.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: They don't really protect animals in any meaningful way. That's
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: the argument.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I mean again, that's we know this to be true
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: just from the farming, the factory farming stuff alone. You know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: despite the best efforts of activists, we know there are
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: still pretty gnarly conditions, you know, in certain very large
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: scaled kind of factory farms.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, I mean there are conferences about this
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: all the time. No one at these conferences is a villain, okay,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: just you know, there's no like Craven the Hunter character
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: showing up in stingray Bo with like a tiger fur stole.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: It's just just just notioning on some whale meat snacks.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Fig Yeah, no, no, what's going Adams are the worst
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: and it's fun to hurt them. They're saying things like,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: how do we how do we make the world a
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: better place, which is a beautiful question, it's a very
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: difficult question to answer. And the idea that humans should
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: be the arbiters of these decisions is already kind of
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: inherently off base, right, It's already sort of biased. Say,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: you'll say, we are not animals. We can save them, though,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: and we can treat them almost like they're as cool
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: as us, And that's kind of that's kind of weird, right.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: If we flip the idea and we assume that the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: animals become the arbiters, then we're left with a really
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: thing like imagine animals denying they are people. By denying
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: that humans are animals, it just ties my brain in
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: a knot, you know what I mean.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: It's wild, there's no question about it, I mean, you know,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: And it just goes to show in all these examples
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: that we've we've brought up in how the legal system
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: kind of has to be sort of navigated, you know,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: in order to even have any change take place in
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: the treatment of animals.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: One hundred percent, you know, and the push to create
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: animal personhood within the bounds of the law can only
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: go so far, you know, Like we like we've been
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: saying for this whole week, the animal personhood idea usually
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: applies to the very the very very smart creatures as
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: humans understand intelligence sort of the odd students of their biome.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: But we can't sentence other animals torture just because we
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: don't think they're super smart. And we probably need to
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: look a little bit closer at the idea of domestication,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: right at the idea of animals that remain wild. Does
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: a snow leopard, for instance, which is not a domesticated animal,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: does it have the same right to life and dignity
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: and the pursuit of happiness as a cetacean or a human.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: And then what about you know, what about the pigs,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: what about the cows, what about the goats? What about
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: the sheep? That like, making this personhood move for all
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: living animals, the current human economy just is not capable
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: of doing that, right.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it comes back to what I asked.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Earlier, the idea of like, is there a world where
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: one day it's like, you know, killing an animal is
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: made illegal, and I would argue that it would take
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: so much to get to anything resembling that, And I
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: don't think anyone's even calling for that, because again, like
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: these we know that animals kill each other every day,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: and that like there is like you know, to not
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: be too lion king about. It's sort of a circle
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: of life, and that humans happen to have evolved out
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: of like a hunter gatherer society, like through technology.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: But we still like eating meats, you know.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: So the question is because we don't need them exactly.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: We could all survive on like impossible burgers and lab
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: grown stuff, right, And maybe that there is an argument
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: we made, if not only because of the implications on
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: the environment, you know, from cattle farming, you know, and
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: like the the water that it takes to feed cattle,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: you know, and like, you know, things like that and resources.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: So we could make the.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Argument that we don't need to eat animals and that
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: is a luxury, and therefore because it's inhumane perhaps and
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: it contributes to problems with the environment, that we should
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: stop entirely.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: But we like our stuff, We like our comforts.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Here, you know, in the United States, it's the sort
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: of some massive sea change or like shift in the
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: old Overton window.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: I just don't see that ever happening.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's tough because you're you're nailing all the
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: right things, man Like, it is completely possible for people
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: to exist as a vegetarian species, right largely, And it
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: makes me think that the real question is how do
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: we constrict humanity enough to allow other species to coexist?
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: That's the real problem, right, Like, That's that's where the
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: rubber hits the road and the idea of legal personhood
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: of animals? Is that going to change the way that
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: poachers work in different parts of the world?
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Is that going to Is that going to stop the
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: ivory trade? Is that going to stop processing a bare
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: bile or creation of was it shark sharks fin soup,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff? Sharks fan birds nest, shark fit
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Those are the two.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Best, Yeah, the bad ones.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I think we could maybe come relatively close to closing
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: this one out there. There's a really great statement from
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Saskia Stucky from the universal of Basel of Bessel referring,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: you know, taking place in a paper presented at Yale
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: University called Personhood Beyond the Human and I think there's
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: a couple of really good pulls from this, and I'll
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: read this one if you want to read the next one.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: To push to create an animal personhood within the law
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: only goes so far. It happily includes primates, domestic and
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: companion animals, elephants, dolphins, and the like. But it would
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: enhance the legal status only of those animals that stand
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: within the light of the human campfire, and animals on
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: whom it's easy to project human qualities like ding ding
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: ding intelligence, animals that have an obvious economic utility, or
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: that readily appear to be capable of suffering cruelty. It
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: stops well short, to put it mildly, of insisting on
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: something far more fundamental, that all species have an equal
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: and equivalent right to their own existence. And Ben, I
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: think this next one really nails it home if you
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: want to.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, it continues. Even to call this a
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: right is to fall into a familiar legalistic and linguistic trap.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: We don't have a word, much less a concept in
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: law to suggest that the existence of any species is
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: its own sufficient justification, a justification that applies to every species,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: including us, whose justification is in no way superior to
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: that of other species. In the Western tradition, God was
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the garantur of the equivalence of all species. God was all,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: so of course the grant or to humans of dominion
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: overall species. So you can see even some of the
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: world's quote unquote smartest people end up chasing their own
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: tails and figure it out how best to address this problem.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this, this paper really just ends with a question,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: which I think is where we in today. The important
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: question is how do we restrain humanity enough to allow
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: the continuing coexistence of other species? I wish we had
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: an answer. And then after two parts of this, I
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: think I have maybe more questions than answers because this
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: is a a real noodle scratcher, ben It really it
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: causes you to think so much about what it means
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: to be human and if that is even that special.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Like no, you know what I mean, I just mean
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: to the point of this paper, like what makes us
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: so great?
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Like just just because we have opposable thumbs and can
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: think about thinking.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Like we can't You can't know anybody.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Else's experience or the experience lonely experience of an animal,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: you know, so It's like, it seems very short sighted
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: and in human centric, and the same way that it
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: seems short sighted to think that any extraterrestrial encounter would
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: be some species or creature or type of thing that
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: would resemble us, that we could even communicate with or
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: relate to in any way. You know.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: But let's take it one step beyond the beyond beyond
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: the Yeah, one step beyond the Uh? Isn't that the
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Is that the show where it's just Riiker starting with
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: all these weird questions.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: All the Star Trek guys got a science show.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotta I gotta said the uh. Yeah, we
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: kind of wrote a couple. I gotta send the compilation
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: to you man, or maybe we can watch it together
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: because it's just amazing. Anyway, this this makes me think
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: of the scary thing a little step past the street light,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: off the edge of the map, here be serpent stuff.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Extraterrestrials are statistically inevitable given the size of the universe,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And how likely is it that those creatures or entities
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: are having conversations like this about humans. We might just
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: be the insects, you know what I mean.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: Who.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: They're like.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: Don't decide those the sound of my brain exploding.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a weird one.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: It's a sci fi trope because it's absolutely uh reasonable
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: to think that there's some greater intelligence than us that's
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: looking down at us, and that we think we're so
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: hot and that we're at the top of the food
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: chain or whatever. I mean. A great example is the
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: movie Arrival, you know, where it's like they were like insects,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: you know, to a sufficient enough you know, higher power
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: or whatever we would be to them, what we think
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: insects are to us, you know.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, An I'm.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Not trying to be nihilistic here, and this sort of
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: existentially dreadful down note, but that is kind of where
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: these these these you think it was a silly oh
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: animals in court, but it really does start to really
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: make you think about.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: What it means to be alive, you know, and and
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: and for that I say kudos to doctor Z. What
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: a time.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you to doctor Z. Thank you of course
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: to repel Max Free Training Williams. Big big things, special things,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: even like max Ada SOUNDQ. Thanks to our guest producer,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: the Man the Myth a Legend, mister Paul Mission Controlled.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Decad not to mention Alex Williams, who composed our theme
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Man, that was cool to cool, it's a strong word.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: It was informative and non fictional to have him back,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: and uh man, I really pooped the bed on that
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: one with the whole coffee thing. At least were setting
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: the Giant Grandfather clock back to midnight threat level midnight
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: or the very least zero so we can start afresh.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: So you won the battle, wist, but not the war.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Interesting fact. He is a pescatariant okay, that's the one
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: that only eats the shrimps, right. He cannot eat shellfish,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: that's right, crazy algy fish and foul fowls like salmon.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: He'll spash cock a chicken, you know what I mean?
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I thought chicken didn't didn't qualify as pesca.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: I thought pescal was specific.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Pesca is just for yeah, it's I can't remember the
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: specific word for both, like no pigs, no cattle.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: No sheep.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: He's just birds and birds and fish that are not shellfish.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: Got it? Look, we could ask him. He will break
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: it down for us. Dude.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: We could just ask him the next time we have
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: like thirty minutes at the.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: End of an episode one hundred percent.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: It looks like it's called the politarian dietsplitarian politarian. Sometimes
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: eat fish and seafood are considered pesca politarian.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Pesca politarian today I learned anyway, I feel fancy, like
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: a spectacled bear.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I feel pretty. I was so pretty and witty and bright.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: And that's all thanks to you, Ben Any ridiculous.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: The story and that stanks to you, Nol. And I'm
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: glad we're an audio podcast because I lost a bit
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: of my composure and I literally just smelt my armpit.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: It's a part of us. I should probably keeps.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Good, Donisty's the best policy. We'll see you next time, folks.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from I Heeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.