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Bivocational Ministry: Rethinking Church Leadership with Kris Bentley · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr.
0:49
Kristen Bentley. Chris is an ordained
0:52
minister with the Christian Church Disciples of
0:55
Christ. She has served in congregational
0:58
ministry in the Central Kentucky area
1:00
for more than 20 years, sometimes in the
1:03
role of a bivocational pastor.
1:06
Prior to attending seminary, she worked in higher
1:09
education administration, serving at AH
1:12
both Midway College, now Midway University,
1:14
and the University of Kentucky. Since
1:17
2014, Chris has been working at AH
1:20
Lexington Theological Seminary LTS,
1:23
beginning when LTS was awarded a grant
1:26
by the Lilly Endowment as part of its
1:29
economic challenges facing future
1:32
ministers. She was hired to direct
1:35
the grant project and as part of that work,
1:37
Chris initiated research at LTS
1:40
regarding bivocational ministry.
1:43
Currently, Chris also is serving as an
1:46
interim minister of a Disciples of Christ
1:48
congregation in Kentucky.
1:51
Chris is an alum of Lexington
1:53
Theological seminary, holding a DMin
1:56
and M. Div. Degree from LTS,
1:59
as well as an Ms. In
2:02
education from Indiana University and a
2:04
BA from the University of Kentucky.
2:07
Chris and her husband Perry, live in the
2:10
Lexington area. They have four adult children
2:13
and three grandchildren. A
2:15
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please
2:18
take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
2:21
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
2:24
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
2:27
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
2:30
email@ah
2:32
laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments,
2:35
questions or ideas ideas for future
2:37
episodes. We appreciate your voice
2:40
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
2:43
church.
2:53
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
2:56
Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
2:59
today by Chris Bentley. So, hello and thanks for being
3:02
with us on the podcast.
3:04
>> Kristen Bentley: Well, hi Loren, I'm really glad to be here and
3:07
I appreciate the invitation for the conversation.
3:10
>> Loren: Well, I'm looking forward to having this conversation, but before we get
3:13
into that, is there anything you want to anything else you want to say about
3:16
yourself to introduce yourself?
3:19
>> Kristen Bentley: Well, I work at Lexington Theological
3:22
Seminary and I also serve as an interim pastor
3:25
in Kentucky. Lexington Theological Seminary is in
3:27
Kentucky and Um, for the
3:30
last 10 years I've been interviewing bivocational
3:33
ministers. So I've learned a little bit through conversations
3:36
with them.
3:37
>> Loren: Yeah. Good. What we'll talk more about today. Share if you would,
3:40
just about your journey of faith, what that looked like in the past and what that
3:43
looks like today.
3:45
>> Kristen Bentley: All right. Well, I grew up in the church. Um,
3:47
my family was part of the Lutheran Church
3:50
Missouri Synod. And they were
3:53
good churchgoing parents. Um, we moved around
3:56
several times. Um, and
3:59
uh, in uh, Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin. But
4:02
we always joined the local church
4:05
and it, um, was really important to me. It
4:07
was a place where I met a lot of people,
4:10
uh, always in the sanctuary, not in children's
4:13
worship. Uh, but when I got
4:16
older I started thinking
4:19
that, uh, maybe God didn't just
4:22
call men to be pastors.
4:24
So there was that kind of change, uh, for
4:28
me. Uh, but church was really important to
4:30
me as I grew up and uh,
4:33
the community, the local community of a congregation was
4:36
really important and still is.
4:39
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Great.
4:41
And, uh, what are some spiritual practices? Anything
4:44
you find meaningful you're willing to share.
4:47
>> Kristen Bentley: Um, yeah, I think journaling
4:50
is one thing. I journal about what I'm thinking
4:53
about. I mean, I'm not like a daily
4:55
journalist. Mhm. Um, and I read a
4:58
lot. I read a lot of fiction, nonfiction,
5:01
um, and I think along with
5:03
scripture reading, um, prayer,
5:07
uh, and writing sermons is, you
5:09
know, really the writing
5:12
of journaling connects with
5:15
writing sermons and thinking about how
5:18
your faith connects with life.
5:20
>> Loren: Yeah. Good, good. Well, uh, as you've kind of hinted
5:23
at already, the purpose of our conversation today
5:25
is to talk about Chris's book, Bi Vocational Minist
5:28
Ministry Field Notes for Congregations and
5:31
Ministers. And I think you've kind of already introduced
5:34
kind of how you got into the work of this book by doing lots of
5:36
interviews over several, several years.
5:39
So maybe let's just jump right into it and I want to maybe
5:42
ask this first question because I think
5:45
first define bivocational ministry and
5:48
then. I know, and maybe our listeners may or may not
5:50
be familiar, but there's also some other terminology.
5:53
So just so we can be clear on what we're talking about and different terminology.
5:56
Why don't you just define all that by what you mean by
5:59
bivocational and then other term terminologies that are sometimes
6:01
used interchangeably.
6:04
>> Kristen Bentley: Sure. I mean, I think that was, that's important to do.
6:07
A lot of people don't really understand when you say the
6:10
word bivocational what are you talking about?
6:12
>> Loren: Right.
6:13
>> Kristen Bentley: Um, so the definition that,
6:16
um, I'm Using now
6:19
is that a person is a
6:21
bivocational minister. If they lead a path, they
6:24
lead some kind of pastoral ministry in a
6:27
congregation. So they're, they're recognized by that
6:30
congregation as a pastor, a minister, but
6:33
they also have paid employment
6:35
outside that congregation.
6:39
Um, a lot of people think that
6:42
it just means a pastor that has two jobs.
6:45
But I think it's really key that
6:48
a lot of people who I would consider
6:51
bivocational, they don't just have one job
6:54
outside of the church. They may have
6:57
multiple, um, uh, employers. So
7:00
it's not really counting how many employers you have.
7:03
A lot of bivocational ministers are not
7:06
actually paid by their congregations.
7:08
So their outside employment is
7:11
like their primary employment and
7:14
it allows them to fulfill their call as a
7:17
pastor, um, in a congregation.
7:21
Um, okay. You asked about some of the other terms
7:24
people use. Some people use the term
7:26
tent, making a
7:29
nod to the Apostle Paul.
7:31
Um, and that really
7:34
focuses on that biblical model that in
7:37
the earliest days of the church
7:40
people would work for pay
7:43
and then serve as church leaders without
7:46
paying. Sometimes, sometimes they were paid, I
7:49
guess. Um, other terms are
7:52
like, that are being used now
7:54
multivocational, co,
7:56
vocational, trans vocational.
8:00
Um, because I think some people might be uncomfortable
8:02
with the buy vocational as
8:05
if it is talking about just two jobs. And I think our
8:08
sense of vocation is pretty complex and
8:11
diverse. So you know, I think we have several different
8:14
terms out there that are describing some of the
8:17
same things. Some people use the term part time
8:19
ministry too. Um, and I try to
8:22
distinguish in my mind and in the book that
8:25
while many bivocational ministers might be
8:28
considered part time by their congregation, the
8:31
thing that distinguishes a bivocational minister
8:34
from a part time minister is that other employment.
8:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
8:39
>> Kristen Bentley: I know in my own life I was what I would call a part time
8:41
minister for a while. I didn't have another
8:44
job, um, outside the church, but I did have
8:47
a different source of income. Hm. But it was
8:50
through my spouse. So, um, I think
8:53
there's a lot of diversity in the experience.
8:55
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, good. That's helpful to share that.
8:58
So let's jump into this. And in the book,
9:01
which I think this is interesting, you talk about three
9:04
reasons why churches and pastors pursue this
9:07
model. So talk through those three reasons if you
9:09
can.
9:10
>> Kristen Bentley: Okay. Yeah, I think there are tons
9:13
of reasons people become bivocation ministries.
9:16
Right. But I kind of made, I,
9:19
I began to see kind of three
9:22
narratives that I heard in
9:24
conversations about bivocational ministry.
9:27
Some, some congregations, uh,
9:31
and ministers end up in
9:33
bivocational ministry and they See it as kind of a,
9:36
uh, they call it,
9:38
uh, a
9:40
sign of the times or a sign of decline. Like they used
9:43
to be a bigger church or maybe the
9:46
pastor can't find a full
9:49
time position somewhere. So they kind of think of it
9:52
as, you know, things are declining, so we
9:55
have to turn to bivocational ministry.
9:57
Um, but then there's also a
10:00
whole bunch of people who see it more as the
10:03
cutting edge of the future where they say, well,
10:06
things are changing, we want to start a
10:09
new church or our church is transforming and
10:12
we want to be more connected with the community. So they
10:15
turn to it for that. You know, they're more optimistic and more
10:18
hopeful about bi vocational ministry.
10:21
And then there's this huge group that
10:24
just says, well, we've always done our ministry
10:27
that way. As long as I can remember, we've
10:29
had a pastor who
10:32
had a, uh, paid job outside the
10:34
congregation. So those are kind of the three kind of
10:37
general categories I identified.
10:40
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. So I think
10:43
one of those reasons you, you laid out
10:46
basically decline and really
10:49
like a bad trend is really
10:52
seems to be at least of, in some
10:54
contexts like the biggest narrative, biggest definer when we
10:57
think about this bi vocational
11:00
ministry, if we stay on that term.
11:03
Now, uh, one of the things that again I really thought was interesting in the
11:06
book, and certainly you're not the first to say this, but I think this is
11:09
important work here and important to emphasize
11:13
is you talk about how bi vocational
11:15
ministry can be good for the church and you talk about how it can
11:18
realign relationships. So do you want to talk through this idea of
11:21
being good for the church and realigning relationships?
11:24
>> Kristen Bentley: Yeah, I mean if we think about
11:27
big church, you know, the church universal.
11:30
>> Loren: Right.
11:31
>> Kristen Bentley: I think it can be, it is
11:33
good for the church because it
11:36
allows the church to flourish. Whether you're
11:39
thinking of, uh, the diverse fields of
11:42
ministry around the world and around our
11:45
continent. Um, so it
11:48
allows churches and
11:50
congregations who are
11:53
maybe have fewer resources or
11:55
they're in a less populated area, so their church
11:58
is smaller. It's a model that
12:01
allows them to
12:04
be financially stable and
12:07
sustainable so they pay their
12:09
pastor less.
12:12
Um, but.
12:16
And that's happening all over. It's
12:19
happening all over the world. It's been happening for a long time.
12:22
Um, the other question you said.
12:24
Oh, realigning relationships. Uh,
12:27
yeah, yeah. I think
12:30
what I see and hear from
12:34
people is that when a congregation
12:37
and both the lay people I talked to and
12:39
ministers said this, it wasn't just the
12:42
pastors saying this is that when a
12:45
pastor has Employment outside
12:47
side of the congregation.
12:51
There is kind of one, they have less
12:54
time. So opportunity opens up for other
12:57
people to do things that maybe a full time
13:00
pastor would have done if, or if they used
13:03
to be there. But also
13:05
it reduces the tendency of a
13:08
congregation to think of their pastor as their
13:11
employed.
13:12
>> Loren: Right.
13:12
>> Kristen Bentley: Hired hand, you know, uh,
13:15
who's supposed to be doing what they want to do because they have this
13:18
other source of income. They're not dependent upon
13:21
the congregation for their entire livelihood. So it
13:24
just kind of realigns that
13:26
m for good. And you
13:29
know, some of the motives may be kind of
13:32
hard for congregations, but if
13:34
they've had somebody that was full
13:37
time working for them at least 40 hours a week.
13:41
Um, so that's how I say it, realigns.
13:44
Uh, and I think that is really good for the church.
13:47
Um, it's good because
13:49
it, um,
13:51
reintroduces or renews
13:53
that sense that the congregation's
13:56
ministry isn't all about what the pastor
13:59
does. It's about what that whole community is
14:02
doing together, led by the pastor,
14:05
equipped by the pastor. And I think that's
14:08
really good. I think that's good for the church.
14:11
>> Loren: Um, and I think what's interesting
14:14
is speaking of realignment, you talk about this
14:17
mindset shift which you're already kind of hinting at
14:20
from a, you know, we have a pastor
14:22
who, or excuse me, I'm saying it
14:25
backwards, this idea of we don't have a
14:27
pastor, we don't have someone full time, we don't have
14:30
this, and instead shifting that mindset
14:33
towards what we do have. So talk more about
14:36
that mindset shift and what that might look
14:38
like.
14:39
>> Kristen Bentley: Right. I think that's really important for congregations
14:42
who are, um, either moving
14:45
into the bivocational model or have used it
14:48
for some time. Because
14:51
there's a tendency to compare for
14:53
congregations to compare themselves with what others might be
14:56
doing. And instead
14:59
of looking at the unique gifts and resources they
15:02
have and. Right. I think about that in
15:05
terms of the pastor, but also other resources. Because
15:08
some congregations turn to bivocational ministry
15:11
because they can't really pay a
15:13
pastor enough to
15:16
say, oh, I don't need another source of
15:19
income. And I think that
15:21
whenever you look at what you have,
15:25
rather than worry about what you don't have or what you need
15:28
or say, well, God will give us this so we
15:30
can do it. Instead, look at what, what do you
15:33
already have? What has God already given you
15:36
and how can you use that? Um, how can
15:39
you rearrange things or tinker with things
15:42
so that you're really using the gifts you have. Because
15:45
we. Every congregation has
15:48
multiple gifts in the people they have,
15:51
the relationships in the community, the gospel
15:54
message there. If they have a building,
15:57
um, their location, they have. They
15:59
really have a lot, um, that they could
16:02
use or tweak a little bit to use.
16:07
>> Loren: Right, right. I think those are good points.
16:10
I want to shift this a little bit from the
16:12
congregation's perspective to the
16:15
pastor's perspective, because
16:18
you offer two questions that are
16:21
important that a pastor working
16:23
bivocationally might either
16:26
explicitly or, uh, implicitly ask.
16:29
So I'm trying to find the first one here, something to the
16:32
effect of what do you expect? And you can finish this
16:35
sentence if I'm leaving it off, what do you expect from me? And
16:38
then conversely, the second question,
16:41
how necessary is it for the pastor to do that? Now, again,
16:44
I imagine that second question could be a
16:46
pastoral question or also a congregational led
16:49
question. But talk through those, uh, those two
16:52
questions.
16:54
>> Kristen Bentley: Okay, great. I got those two
16:56
questions from a book by Mark Eddington
17:00
called Bivocational Returning to the
17:02
Roots of Ministry. And he
17:05
was telling about his experience when he was
17:08
pastoring and also working
17:11
in, I think, the publishing industry.
17:14
And I thought he had a really good point
17:17
that I heard from the
17:20
interviews as well, is that sometimes bivocational
17:23
ministers struggle
17:25
with people expecting them to do
17:28
things that they really don't have the time to
17:31
do. Um, and so
17:33
those two questions, the question, and I think he framed
17:36
it as an activity that he and the congregation did
17:39
together when he first started working there,
17:43
is what do you expect the minister to
17:45
do? And so you
17:48
would make this list. I. I actually
17:51
created a list and included it as an appendix
17:54
for congregations to use. Um,
17:58
and. And there's way too many things on there.
18:01
Um, but. And then the second question
18:04
is, how necessary is it for the minister to do
18:07
that? So to first help a
18:09
congregation, and maybe the pastor themselves needs
18:12
to explore that too. What, what expectations do I put
18:15
upon myself? What do I think I'm supposed to
18:18
be doing? And then going
18:21
through those expectations a second
18:23
time and thinking about, well, what
18:26
is really needed? And, you know, that can
18:29
be different in different settings because
18:32
congregations may have some things that are really
18:35
important to them. And,
18:38
uh, so that. Clarifying
18:41
what you expect a minister to do, what a minister
18:44
expects. And some people bring
18:46
those. Maybe they've been in a church,
18:50
uh, they've grown up in a church, they've been there for 40
18:52
years. And so what over time they've
18:55
done is they've developed these expectations that they're
18:58
sometimes not even aware of. But then when they see
19:01
somebody not doing it, suddenly they say,
19:04
well, wow, you know, why isn't
19:07
the minister doing this? Um, and
19:10
I think that's really important for bivocational,
19:13
uh, congregations with
19:15
bivocational ministers to do to make sure that
19:19
you are being good to your
19:22
pastor, not expecting them to do more
19:25
than either they are being paid to do,
19:28
uh, or that they can do that they have the
19:31
energy to, to do. And
19:34
then you begin thinking about, well,
19:37
why do we ask the pastor to do that? You know, they don't really
19:40
need to be the person that shovels the walk
19:42
after a snowfall. They don't really need to be
19:45
the person there to receive the
19:48
UPS delivery. Um,
19:51
and then there are others that are a little bit less obvious
19:54
than that.
19:56
>> Loren: So this leads me to a question that I'm just, just
19:59
coming to mind right now as I'm thinking about our
20:01
conversation. When I'm thinking
20:04
about having this type of conversation with a
20:07
congregation, both, you know, as a pastoral leader
20:10
and then, you know, again with the congregation or
20:13
the leadership team of the congregation, these two
20:16
questions, you know, what do you expect from
20:18
me? I'm, uh, thinking how I might as
20:21
a, you know, lead as a pastor,
20:24
what do you expect from me? And how necessary for it is
20:27
it for the pastor to do these things? I'm wondering, in
20:30
your conversations, did you get a sense or did you get
20:33
any kind of direct feedback around
20:36
whether these conversations are easier, like
20:39
from transitioning, like a pastoral
20:42
leader transitioning from full time to
20:44
bivocational or someone coming in
20:47
fresh as, uh, you
20:50
know, rather than shifting downward,
20:53
so to speak, in their hours, starting in fresh. Because I can
20:56
imagine, like if you, if you've been in a congregation a
20:58
while and the congregation is used to you preaching
21:01
every Sunday and doing hospital visits and so
21:04
on and so forth, it could be really hard to
21:08
shift those expectations downward.
21:11
Whereas if someone's coming in fresh and,
21:14
uh, they don't necessarily know them. Obviously
21:16
a congregation might have some expectations
21:19
built up of what we expect from the pastor, but there's not
21:22
necessarily like this built in, like, oh,
21:25
Johnny does those things versus,
21:27
you know, this new person.
21:30
So do you have any
21:33
anecdotes about that? Any thoughts?
21:36
>> Kristen Bentley: Yeah, um, well, one, I think,
21:39
uh, when you were first asking about
21:42
this just now, I was thinking
21:44
it, it is a hard conversation. I
21:47
think if a pastor comes in and says, what do you
21:50
expect of me?
21:51
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:52
>> Kristen Bentley: So, I mean, I think it is good when you can do
21:55
those conversations and it's not personalized
21:59
but yeah, I do have some great things I
22:02
learned in conversations because
22:04
one of the pastors I interviewed, I call
22:07
her Reverend sue, and she
22:10
became Bivocational after serving in a
22:13
congregation as their full time
22:16
person, uh, without another,
22:19
uh, employment for, I think it was seven
22:22
years. About seven years. And
22:24
so she had those
22:27
conversations as she helped the
22:29
congregation start thinking about, okay,
22:32
we need to change our model of
22:35
ministry to be more
22:37
affordable and sustainable. And so all
22:40
the time when she's comparing, when they're saying,
22:43
where they're exploring that,
22:46
um, the full time minister
22:49
she's comparing herself to is herself
22:52
what she did for seven years when she didn't have
22:54
her extra employment
22:57
and her other employment is full time.
23:01
And so that was an interesting
23:03
one where the congregation actually
23:06
made the move to Bivocational while they kept the same
23:09
pastor. Another, um,
23:12
story is of a minister who
23:14
had been a pastor in
23:17
full time settings in several places
23:21
after that experience. He dropped out of ministry
23:24
because he was exhausted.
23:26
And then after a couple years
23:29
off, uh, the regional
23:32
minister told him about a church
23:36
not far from where he lived. And he had a full time
23:39
job in the secular, I think business world
23:42
at that time. And they
23:44
wanted somebody to be
23:47
their pastor, but they'd had ministers with other
23:50
jobs before. And his experience when
23:53
he went in there was liberating,
23:56
he thought. And this would
23:59
definitely be where you identify
24:02
the relationship, uh, was realigned because
24:05
he compared his experience from being full
24:07
time where people expected him to do everything,
24:11
to coming into a congregation where they were used to
24:14
having a pastor who had other
24:16
employment. And
24:19
they, um,
24:23
they were more of a partnership
24:26
and he felt he could speak more prophetically
24:29
too. Um, so I'm not sure
24:32
if that, those are two that help you with
24:35
that. Um, but those were two
24:37
distinct interviews that
24:39
really showed, you know, that
24:42
realigning that those
24:44
expectations of a pastor is really important for
24:47
advocational ministers to have a positive
24:50
and successful relationship in
24:52
ministry.
24:53
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's important.
24:55
Something that's coming to mind too as we're talking
24:58
is we're
25:00
primarily talking about this through the lens of,
25:03
uh, a downshift of a congregation. And
25:06
I'm curious, I don't know, I'm curious if you have
25:09
experience, you know, obviously within, we're coming from this, the
25:12
context of the Christian church, Disciples of Christ.
25:15
I see this in mainline or, excuse me, not in mainline
25:18
circles, but in evangelical circles more often. I'm curious
25:21
if you've seen this in either disciples or
25:24
mainline writ large examples of
25:27
churches choosing to, whether it's the
25:30
clergy decision or the congregation
25:33
being thinking strategically in like the, like this.
25:36
You said about like, hey, this is the new way of doing things of
25:38
uh, saying, hey, we're going to, going to get two or three
25:41
pastors or clergy leaders and we're going to
25:43
strategically choose to, you know, to pay
25:46
them, you know, part time or to
25:49
have them bivocational so they can earn a higher income. And also
25:52
we can kind of get more diverse, uh,
25:55
talent pool, so to speak. Have you seen examples of
25:57
that in the Disciples Remain line?
26:00
>> Kristen Bentley: Well, I mean, I've heard about them and um,
26:03
my. All my interviews were with people in Disciples
26:06
congregations. And you know, I haven't interviewed
26:08
everybody. There's lots of people out there
26:11
that have experience beyond what I,
26:14
uh, interviewed. But there was a pastor
26:16
I interviewed, African American woman pastor,
26:20
new, uh, church Start and what
26:23
they model. I'm trying to think if they're
26:26
about 8 or 10 years old now, but
26:29
as a congregation. But they do have
26:32
that model where they've kind
26:34
of created some community ministries
26:38
that are connected with their congregation.
26:40
They have a combination of paid and
26:43
unpaid leaders,
26:45
um, diversifying their impact
26:48
and their relationships. I think she's the
26:51
primary one. Um, back in
26:54
2013, I interviewed a woman,
26:58
another woman minister who
27:01
was also in a new church, Start.
27:04
Um, and they were trying to bring new
27:06
light, what they considered new light to their
27:09
community, I think. Um,
27:12
and they were just trying to be sustainable. But I do think
27:15
that, yeah, that whole idea of being cutting
27:18
edge of the future. I hope
27:21
more churches move that direction
27:24
in the Disciples of Christ. I haven't spoken with
27:27
as many who have done that, but I know we have a
27:30
lot of people who are exploring that area.
27:33
>> Loren: Yeah. And like I said, I hear this more often
27:36
in evangelical spaces where whether it's a new
27:39
church start or
27:42
an existing church, this is the idea of like, how can
27:44
we better get ourselves integrated into the
27:47
community? Well, it's through working and
27:50
running a business or working at a business within the
27:53
community. And certainly all those
27:55
challenges that we've already spoke about still exist
27:59
from, you know, the questions
28:01
of how necessary is it for the pastor to do that.
28:04
What do you expect of the pastor? And uh, I think this is
28:07
really important.
28:08
I want to highlight this,
28:10
um, the importance of pastors
28:12
noticing things and not doing them
28:16
right.
28:17
>> Kristen Bentley: Well, I quoted somebody there. Yeah,
28:20
Rachel, um, McDonald, who, uh, she has
28:23
a blog called My Other Job.
28:26
Um, that's an actual quote
28:28
from one of her blogs, but it was
28:31
repeated by lots of people that
28:34
part of the struggle is when you see
28:37
something and you have a great idea of how you would do it, or, you know,
28:40
you have the expertise, uh, but
28:43
you one, you know, it's better
28:46
for somebody else to do it.
28:48
Somebody else has the time, the
28:51
inclination, the undiscovered gift
28:54
perhaps, and that if you step in
28:57
as the pastor and do it, you keep someone
28:59
else from doing it. Um, and
29:03
you also overburden yourself. Um,
29:05
because we all only have limited time
29:09
and limited energy.
29:12
Uh, so I think that's
29:15
in both, that's important for us to
29:18
remember in both the pastoral sphere
29:20
of helping others to discover their
29:23
gifts in the congregation's shared
29:26
ministry with the ministers, but also in your
29:29
personal life, because you just have to leave room
29:32
to replenish your energy and um,
29:35
to not feel that you're indispensable,
29:38
that everything relies on you to fill every
29:41
gap, um, and to accomplish
29:43
everything.
29:46
>> Loren: I want to stay on this point because I think it's so important, this
29:49
idea of good personal boundaries, both in
29:52
recognizing
29:56
and maybe I'll say it this way because I know for me, in
29:59
my ministry experiences, even when I was in full time
30:02
or close to full time contexts, it was
30:05
hard to. Hard to be
30:08
okay with, you know, not things being
30:11
perfect or done as you would like them to do.
30:14
Or again, do you
30:17
have an anecdote there that clergy
30:20
in these contexts have been able to kind of have
30:23
good boundaries for themselves?
30:26
>> Kristen Bentley: Yeah. I tried to include some different
30:29
tips that ministers have shared with
30:32
me about how they
30:35
manage everything.
30:37
Um, and
30:40
I do think.
30:43
I don't remember if I included the book or
30:45
not, but I remember that, um, a
30:48
minister said, oh, it might be the
30:51
same Reverend sue who said that.
30:54
She is in a meeting
30:57
and they're discussing a
30:59
project or ministry,
31:02
and her impulse is to say,
31:06
yeah, I'll take care of that. But
31:09
instead she's able to say,
31:12
well, that's a great idea,
31:14
but somebody else, who else can step up and do
31:17
that? Um, and I know
31:20
in my own ministry, I mean, I
31:23
was so excited and supercharged after seminary
31:26
to, you know, to just go out there and take all those
31:29
great ideas that I had learned, all
31:32
those learnings and gleanings from seeing other
31:34
people. And you do have to step back, as
31:37
you say,
31:40
just because you might do it a certain way
31:43
that you think is better or more
31:46
perfect. You have to
31:49
step back and let things
31:52
happen. Not exactly the way you
31:55
want them to happen. Um,
31:58
sometimes I've been surprised by that. I think I tell
32:01
a story, uh, that I learned
32:04
from, uh, about the idea of the
32:07
Backyard bouquets,
32:09
um, where I, uh, think that
32:12
church had a very large sanctuary.
32:15
Uh, at one time they had purchased bouquets
32:18
every Sunday, you know, that would make the
32:21
sanctuary beautiful. But over time
32:24
they had replaced them with plastic,
32:26
uh, bouquets that they rotated for, you
32:29
know, different seasons. And the
32:32
pastor one spring just invited people to bring
32:35
some from their own, uh,
32:38
backyards, front yards, whatever. And that,
32:41
that kind of unleashed this
32:44
sense in the congregation that, yeah, we can do new
32:47
things, uh, we have resources right
32:50
there and we don't have to
32:52
feel that because we can't buy
32:55
those fancy bouquets anymore from a
32:58
florist, that we can't have a place of
33:01
beauty, um, in which we
33:03
worship. And I actually think that's an
33:06
improvement over buying the big bouquets.
33:10
Um, this idea that
33:12
we uh, we have
33:15
resources that are undiscovered and that
33:18
as a pastor we don't have to organize it, we can just step
33:21
back, issue the invitation and
33:24
then watch things come forth.
33:27
They may not come forth. I'm not saying it's a
33:29
guarantee for success, but
33:32
that we need to allow that to happen. And
33:36
sometimes we're very reluctant because we think
33:39
as ministers that we know the
33:41
better way. Um, but there's
33:44
actually many better good ways. Maybe not better
33:47
ways, but there's actually many good ways.
33:50
>> Loren: So let's.
33:51
I want to shift this conversation before we're done here
33:54
to explore two areas that
33:57
I can't remember if you cover, well, somewhat explicitly in
34:00
your book, but then again from your context in a seminary. I
34:03
also want to explore the questions of kind of
34:06
structural, denominational, theological
34:08
education type questions around bivocational
34:11
ministry. So I'll ask this in two parts
34:14
and we can explore each part individually, but
34:17
I want to make sure I get the questions out there. So the first I'm thinking
34:20
about is how denominations can
34:23
better support bivocational pastors. Because I'm thinking
34:25
like for me, as someone who
34:28
often on does
34:31
ministry and certainly is trying to retain my
34:34
standing within the denomination for
34:36
non mainline listeners, you may not understand that,
34:39
but
34:43
working full time 9 to 5, Monday through Friday,
34:46
it's hard for me to make meetings. And again,
34:48
thinking from bi vocational perspective, it's going to be hard
34:51
for someone who's bivocational working another job to necessarily
34:54
make meetings Monday through Friday,
34:57
but conversely like also mainline or full
35:00
time clergy. And I get this, like hate Saturday meetings
35:03
because they're like, hey, we want our weekends. Like we're
35:06
supposed to be taking a Sabbath here and if you're having us come in on
35:09
Saturdays, that is hard. So that's a
35:12
one challenge I want to talk through. And then B
35:14
is like the latter part is
35:17
taking on a full seminary education
35:20
debt. Four years seems
35:22
increasingly difficult and expensive and
35:25
not financially the most
35:28
wise investment, we might say, thinking
35:31
about not being able to get a return on that investment
35:34
again purely from a fiscal
35:37
perspective. So those are two big questions. And you're
35:40
welcome to take those one at a time.
35:43
>> Kristen Bentley: Yeah. And help me remember both of them.
35:45
>> Loren: Well, just the example for one of
35:48
denomination. How denominations can better
35:50
support bivocational pastors
35:54
thinking contextually of
35:56
structurally.
35:58
>> Kristen Bentley: Right. And that is a big question, I think
36:00
because for a long
36:03
time denominations have
36:06
nurtured the idea that success
36:09
is by getting bigger,
36:12
um, maybe even holding up this idea that
36:15
every church should strive for having
36:18
a fully funded,
36:20
professionally ordained,
36:23
uh, pastor. And so over
36:26
time denominations have kind of built
36:29
a support structure for that. I refer to this as a
36:32
trellis. Kind of in the book is, you
36:35
know, you have this idea
36:37
of what success should look like
36:40
and well meaning, I mean
36:43
you're not doing this usually in a
36:46
dubious way. I don't think you just, that's what you think success
36:49
is. So you build that trellis to support
36:52
that kind of ministry. So I think the
36:55
big important thing for denominations to do
36:58
is to begin to, for leaders to really begin
37:01
to ask those crucial questions of
37:04
where in our system are we supporting
37:07
things in a manner that is
37:09
privileging full time ministers,
37:12
privileging the big churches because they're the
37:15
minority. They're, they're not the
37:18
majority of our congregations out there.
37:21
And those questions need to be
37:24
wide ranging. I think
37:27
when you um, mention when
37:30
do clergy get together? Of course I, um, know
37:32
I'm currently serving as a bivocational,
37:35
uh, interim minister and our
37:38
district meetings happen to be on the one
37:41
day that I'm at the church each week. So that
37:44
has worked out well.
37:45
>> Loren: Right.
37:45
>> Kristen Bentley: I can do it, but often it doesn't
37:48
work out well. And you're right,
37:51
nobody who works Monday through
37:54
Friday in a congregation and then on Sunday,
37:57
hopefully with a day off, um, wants to get
38:00
together for a church meeting on Saturdays.
38:03
And actually lots of bi vocational ministers don't want to get
38:06
together on meetings on Saturdays either. Some of them work on
38:09
Saturdays. Um, so I think
38:11
asking questions of how do we manage
38:14
just allowing more
38:17
room for diversity, make sure we're not
38:20
always setting things up so they're most
38:23
convenient with the people who work 40 hours
38:26
a week for either the denomination or a
38:29
congregation that needs to look at things
38:32
like you know, how do we structure our
38:34
retirement.
38:35
>> Loren: Yes.
38:36
>> Kristen Bentley: Systems. Um, how do we structure search
38:39
and call?
38:41
Um, who gets a
38:43
voice in making decisions? I
38:46
mean, are our assemblies and gatherings set up so that
38:49
mostly the smaller pastors or the
38:52
pastors who are bi vocational can't afford
38:55
to attend or can't afford to vote? What, uh, about
38:58
our resources? You know, do our resources that we
39:01
provide for congregations
39:04
assume you've got a big group there?
39:06
>> Loren: Mhm.
39:07
>> Kristen Bentley: Or are they set up so that they can be
39:10
done with smaller groups and then the
39:12
larger congregations can add on? It's
39:15
much easier for them to add on to something
39:18
than for a smaller congregation to subtract
39:22
from whatever is set up. Um,
39:25
so I think that just
39:27
opening up some serious reflection
39:30
and questioning because all our different
39:33
denominations and traditions are so different
39:36
that to say, oh, everybody needs to do this, that's just not going to
39:39
work. We've got to figure out what works
39:42
in our context. We've got to lean
39:45
into loving those small churches and those bi
39:47
vocational pastors. So we set up things,
39:50
uh, that work for them, work for
39:53
us.
39:54
>> Loren: Yeah. I should say, and I will give a shout out
39:57
to our, our retirement
39:59
fund, uh, for Chris and I both within the Christian
40:02
church. I'm making assumptions that you're within this retirement
40:05
fund. The
40:08
pension fund of the Christian church, I think is really making good
40:10
steps to try to address this challenge of
40:13
bivocational ministry. So shout out to
40:16
them to the pension fund.
40:18
>> Kristen Bentley: Right. I think our denomination is
40:21
doing a lot to listen to these things
40:24
and to open them up.
40:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:27
So let's explore the other half of that question, that
40:30
big question of thinking about theological education.
40:33
Seminary.
40:34
>> Kristen Bentley: Yeah. And I mean, I first started
40:37
working at Lexington Theological Seminary at
40:40
a time when they were really paying attention to a lot
40:43
of this. Um, uh,
40:46
so you're right.
40:49
If somebody spends three to four
40:52
years getting a Master's
40:55
of Divinity and have
40:57
accrued debt, maybe on top of their
41:00
undergraduate school debt, and then they
41:03
look down the road at what they're going to make
41:06
in terms of a pastor, whether they work
41:09
just for a church or they're bivocational. It's really a
41:12
tough, tough thing to do. We
41:15
looked at, uh, so I think a lot of
41:17
theological schools now are looking at that.
41:20
Um, they're offering more flexible, uh,
41:24
um, ways for people to engage
41:27
in their studies. Um, I know we have a lot of our
41:30
coursework is offered online with
41:32
asynchronous, which means, you know, you can work on your
41:35
schoolwork without everybody else being
41:38
in the same room. Even the same zoom room,
41:41
um, or conference call room however you have it set
41:44
up. Um, and then also
41:47
I think a lot of theological schools are looking at
41:50
alternatives to the Master of Divinity.
41:53
Yeah, um, I know. Ah, again we
41:56
have a couple different certificate
41:59
programs where people can begin into a
42:02
certificate program, they can complete that and
42:05
then if they want to continue into the M. Div. They
42:07
can, um, and also flexible
42:10
payment plans. I mean, do we have
42:13
to always pay for a whole tuition, I mean
42:16
a whole semester or term at a time
42:19
or can we pay for course by
42:21
course, can we have monthly
42:24
payment plans for students? Things um,
42:27
like that. I know those are things that come to mind because we've
42:30
done some of those things at uh.
42:33
Lts I think actually we've done all those things.
42:35
Uh, but I know when I was working on the economic
42:38
challenges grant that Lily funded,
42:41
um, in their initiative a few years
42:43
ago, those were things that a lot of schools
42:46
were looking at. And so I do hope that the
42:49
landscape for those entering
42:51
into theological uh,
42:54
education can have more of those opportunities to free
42:57
them up from debt and to open
42:59
doorways into ministry.
43:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's so important. Like, I'm just thinking about
43:05
even. Not even like
43:08
uh, the finances, but I'm thinking like committing
43:11
four years, especially
43:14
in a career path. Taking aside four
43:17
years, if you're going to be bivocational, that's going
43:20
to negatively impact your own.
43:23
Outside the church, career growth can really be
43:26
difficult. And I'm thinking about models,
43:29
new learning models like Coursera that
43:32
are, like you said, asynchronous, kind of go at your
43:35
own pace, have different
43:38
pace. Structures are
43:40
really, are really growing.
43:42
I think for good reason and I suppose this will
43:45
be our last question maybe before we take a break, but do you think. I
43:48
know in our tradition, the Christian church, Disciples of
43:51
Christ, ordination has largely been
43:54
conditioned or conditional, I should
43:57
say, on getting an M. Div. A Master Divinity.
44:00
Do you think? I mean what do we uh. I don't even remember. Do
44:03
we have like, we have like a license or what is even the
44:06
terminology anymore? Do we need to make more space
44:09
for that?
44:10
>> Kristen Bentley: Yeah, we did make more space.
44:12
We re. Examined the
44:14
uh. I've forgotten the names
44:17
of it, but we examined the
44:20
paths to uh, ordination a few
44:23
years ago and there are
44:25
ministers who,
44:27
um, a growing number of
44:30
ministers who are becoming ordained without
44:33
having gone to seminary. Ah,
44:36
that like you're describing the four year M. Div.
44:39
Program, um, there are also
44:42
ah, ways of looking at prior experience
44:45
now, um, but
44:48
we're really talking about the Ordination process. Right. Not
44:50
theological education, but, uh, um, within
44:53
the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, we
44:56
have opened up the path to
44:59
ordination. The other kind of
45:02
minister we have in many places is the
45:04
commission minister, right?
45:06
>> Loren: That's right.
45:06
>> Kristen Bentley: I think that terminology replaced what we used to call the
45:09
licensed minister. But anybody who's
45:12
a commission minister and many
45:14
bivocational ministers are commissioned
45:17
ministers. They,
45:19
um, are getting
45:22
theological education,
45:25
leadership training, not just through
45:27
seminaries. They're going maybe through a region,
45:30
may offer a lay
45:33
school or, um, a school for
45:36
ministry. And they
45:39
look at these different areas, and the
45:42
group
45:44
that has conversations
45:47
with people as they're pursuing ordination,
45:50
the Committee on Ministry, they look
45:53
at these different areas outside of
45:56
just getting an M. Div. So you still have to do education.
45:59
You have to show you're serious.
46:02
Um, it's not that
46:06
those degrees are
46:08
obstacles as much as
46:12
they are ways to help an
46:15
individual person explore.
46:18
How will I do ministry? Well,
46:20
yeah. What are the things I need to learn,
46:23
Relearn, um,
46:25
unlearn, uh, to become
46:28
the best minister I can be and
46:31
to lead a congregation where I eventually
46:34
serve or when I'm already
46:37
serving. Some of them are already serving when they're going through
46:40
this process.
46:41
>> Loren: Well, and I think this is the other side of this conversation that is
46:44
so difficult because,
46:46
I mean, I think, uh, uh, an example of this is
46:49
in the SBC in the Southern Baptist Church, who,
46:52
if I remember correctly, historically has, like, the lowest
46:55
percentage of clergy with
46:59
education.
47:01
And certainly I don't want to just throw the SPC under the bus
47:04
alone because we've seen this example throughout the Christian
47:07
tradition of abuse and
47:10
impropriety and especially sexual
47:12
abuse. But I think that
47:15
is why mainline traditions have
47:18
held up such a high expectation and standard
47:21
for clergy and for ministry is to try to prevent
47:24
and keep any schmuck from getting
47:27
in there. So it's a
47:30
complex conversation and, uh, we, uh, should leave it
47:33
there just for the sake of time. Um, but I
47:35
wanted again recommend the book is BI
47:38
Vocational Ministry Field Notes for Congregations and
47:41
Ministers.
47:44
Uh, Chris talks a lot about the stuff in we've
47:46
talked about already, as well as some helpful
47:49
appendixes and resources that could be
47:52
really useful for churches and pastors
47:55
who are thinking about or going through this
47:57
conversation, uh, as we speak. So, uh,
48:00
let's take a quick break. We'll come back with some closing questions.
48:06
All right, we're back with Chris Bentley. So thank you for the
48:09
conversation. Appreciate your time. I think these are
48:12
important topics, and I'm glad, Glad, uh, to have it
48:15
with you. So let's go through these closing questions
48:17
again. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously
48:20
or not as you'd like to, but, uh,
48:23
if you're Pope for a day, any thoughts on
48:26
that day?
48:27
>> Kristen Bentley: Well, yeah, that was kind of. I realized if I were
48:30
Pope for a day, we'd be in a different world because I'm a
48:33
woman. Um, but I was thinking that if
48:36
I had the power of the Pope and the
48:39
authority and the voice of the Pope, I think I would
48:41
really do whatever was in my power to
48:44
encourage and equip congregations
48:47
to have a deep conversation about shared
48:49
ministry.
48:50
>> Loren: Yes.
48:51
>> Kristen Bentley: About this thing of how do we go
48:53
about having ministry where
48:57
one person or one group of people aren't
49:00
lording it over the others as, you know, where we
49:03
can be in ministry together and really
49:06
fulfilling our individual and congregational
49:08
calls.
49:10
>> Loren: That's very on theme. So that's a good answer. I suppose
49:14
a theologian or historical Christian
49:17
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
49:20
>> Kristen Bentley: Well, there's a whole posse of them out there. But I
49:23
was thinking a couple years ago, I went
49:26
to the Underground Railroad
49:29
National Historical, um, Park
49:32
and M. I would love to meet Harriet
49:35
Tubman.
49:38
I. I think she is a theologian
49:41
in her own way. She didn't write much.
49:43
Um, I wish I could remember the quote. They have a
49:47
church fan for sale in one of the
49:49
sites we went on. The Byway. The Harriet Tubman
49:52
Byway, where you visited all the sites in
49:55
Maryland. I just thought she was the
49:58
example of a person who
50:00
took. Who contextualized
50:03
her Bible learnings from her mother,
50:06
which obviously she
50:09
deeply respected the book of Exodus and
50:12
its message of liberation.
50:15
But then she actually put her life on the
50:17
line and gave it her all. I mean, freeing people
50:20
through the Underground Railroad. So I would love to
50:23
meet her and just tap in a little bit more
50:26
to that courage and strength that she had.
50:30
>> Loren: Yeah, great, great.
50:32
Um, what do you think history will remember
50:35
from our current time and place?
50:37
>> Kristen Bentley: Oh, if we're talking about the United States of
50:40
America.
50:41
>> Loren: Yeah. I leave it purposely ambiguous.
50:45
>> Kristen Bentley: Um, I think, sadly,
50:49
this time will be thought of as a time of
50:51
division. Um, I think people are
50:54
very divided, and I think also
50:57
where there are a lot of lonely people,
51:00
um, because of this division, I think we've
51:03
diminished some of our capacity to have good
51:05
conversations and fruitful
51:08
conversations.
51:10
Um, so that is
51:12
something I think history will remember
51:15
from current time and place if we're talking about just the culture
51:18
at large in our nation.
51:20
>> Loren: Well, I was just listening to a podcast from Simon Sinek
51:23
last night he was interviewing the Surgeon General.
51:26
They were talking about loneliness. Uh, and,
51:29
uh, it's funny, the surgeon General made a point
51:32
about having people over even if your house is a mess,
51:35
because they won't remember the mess. They'll remember the people,
51:37
the conversation. And I'm somewhat skeptical of that, but
51:41
I suppose I can appreciate the intention, maybe both.
51:43
>> Kristen Bentley: Maybe they'll remember the people in the mess.
51:45
>> Loren: But, yeah, uh, what
51:48
are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
51:51
>> Kristen Bentley: Oh, man, I do have a lot of hopes
51:54
for the future of Christianity. As we
51:56
realign relationships, I think it's inevitable
51:59
that, um, as we see
52:02
more and more that,
52:04
uh, it's important for local
52:07
congregations to find their own call.
52:10
I mean, that's my hope, is that local
52:13
congregations will find that real
52:16
sense, whether, no matter how small they are,
52:19
um, or how large, but that
52:22
they'll really move into that space where they can
52:25
be a, uh, source of
52:27
light, of energy
52:30
for their community. Um,
52:33
and where we can have those
52:36
kind of conversations like we're talking about where people can bring their
52:38
real selves and where they can be
52:41
better places, stronger places,
52:44
where the Christian faith is
52:47
formed among believers. You know, that we
52:50
can. That is my hope. I think it's going to
52:52
happen. Um, I just think we're going through
52:55
a rough patch of trying to sort and
52:58
figure out how to get there.
53:00
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point. I appreciate that.
53:03
Uh, well, you mentioned you don't necessarily
53:06
have a strong social media presence, and I think that's okay.
53:08
But, uh, where else can people find out more about you,
53:11
connect with you, the book, all
53:14
that?
53:15
>> Kristen Bentley: Right. Well, the book is published through Chalice Press, so it's
53:18
available on the Chalice Press website. Website, and,
53:20
you know, those other big places like Amazon and stuff
53:23
like that. Um, I work for Lexington
53:26
Theological Seminary. It's in Kentucky, and
53:29
we have a website, Lex Theo. Um,
53:32
and, um, I, I do have a
53:35
LinkedIn page. I just don't check
53:37
things very often, but I do check them so
53:40
people could reach me through those things. I,
53:43
I think the book, uh, you know, I'm eager for
53:46
people to, to get the book and
53:49
use it, to use
53:52
it to learn more about. Through those stories
53:55
I've got in it about many different ministers.
53:58
But, yeah, I don't have a huge social media
54:01
presence. Maybe I need to do something about it.
54:03
>> Loren: Well, it's good and bad.
54:07
That's okay. Well, again, I appreciate your time.
54:10
I thank you for the conversation and I hope that the book
54:12
is, uh, helpful for many folks out there.
54:15
So uh, we always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
54:18
God's peace be with you.
54:20
>> Kristen Bentley: And also with you. Thank you very much. Lauren.
54:30
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
54:33
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
54:35
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54:38
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54:40
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54:42
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54:45
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