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Is Grey Divorce on The Rise Because of Bad Communication? · Sex, Lies, and Spray Tans

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  Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two. It's your host Jana Kramer. Today,
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  Speaker 1: I've got a father daughter duo who have a lot
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  Speaker 1: of experience in the world of relationships, from marriage conferences
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  Speaker 1: to counseling. My guest joy Eggerich and her father, doctor
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  Speaker 1: Emerson Egerich, have also co authored a children's book together,
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  Speaker 1: which I can't wait to talk about. So let's dive in. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I am so excited to have I love a good
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  Speaker 1: father daughter duo. This is so cute. I always I'm
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  Speaker 1: interested to in y'allsen dynamic because we'll just say, doctor dad,
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  Speaker 1: how long have you How long have you been a
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  Speaker 1: counselor for Well.
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  Speaker 2: We've been doing marriage focused issues since nineteen ninety nine. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: my wife nine. Yeah, we've been married over fifty three years,
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  Speaker 2: and we do a conference called Love and Respect, and
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  Speaker 2: so that's been our focus.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, have you read the book? You read the book?
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  Speaker 3: Oh?
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  Speaker 2: Did I write the book? Yes. I sometimes joke that
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  Speaker 2: I have to have my wife read the book eventually,
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  Speaker 2: but I wrote Love and Respect.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that is that is one of the books
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  Speaker 1: that has been so incredibly helpful in my marriage that
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  Speaker 1: our therapists actually yeah, like he's like you guys need
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  Speaker 1: to read this book because it's so interesting how like
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  Speaker 1: what women want versus what men and how they receive
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  Speaker 1: their love, you know, And it's like I don't. I
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  Speaker 1: just didn't really it didn't lock in for me until
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  Speaker 1: I read the book.
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  Speaker 2: So thank you for that, Well, thank you for sharing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate that. And then
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  Speaker 1: Joy as the daughter, I'm just curious to you because
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  Speaker 1: I love the dynamics of and I actually have therapy
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  Speaker 1: today with my my personal therapist. But you know, I'm
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  Speaker 1: always like, please tell me that you guys aren't just
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  Speaker 1: like perfect, and that it's not like you're communicating it
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  Speaker 1: like just so great, so perfectly all the time, because like, listen,
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  Speaker 1: we just had a couple's therapy a couple of weeks ago,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm like, listen, did I say it exactly how
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  Speaker 1: my toolbox of words, like, you know, what's really coming
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  Speaker 1: up for me right now is that I'm feeling, you know, scared,
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  Speaker 1: and I make up that you're blah blah blah. And
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  Speaker 1: it's like, did I communicate it properly in that time?
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  Speaker 2: No?
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  Speaker 1: But I look at my therapist and I'm like, do
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  Speaker 1: you communicate it all the time perfectly to your wife
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  Speaker 1: and joy as like the daughter of witnessing this thing.
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  Speaker 1: Do you sometimes look at the Love and Respect Book
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  Speaker 1: or whatever else your doctor your dad is doing and
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  Speaker 1: being like, Dad, let's like go through the chapters here,
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  Speaker 1: let's skim this.
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  Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
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  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, no, it's so funny because my husband, we've
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  Speaker 4: been married for ten years, okay, and he is just now,
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  Speaker 4: thank you, just now reading the book. And he felt embarrassed.
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  Speaker 4: But he when we first were dating, he was like,
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  Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't want to read the book because
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  Speaker 4: I didn't want to feel like I was trying to
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  Speaker 4: like work an angle, you know. And so he literally
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  Speaker 4: was just reading it last week and he kept putting
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  Speaker 4: it down and being.
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  Speaker 1: Like, man, I get it.
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  Speaker 4: I get why this has sold over two million copies.
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  Speaker 4: I get it. It's so good. And I can hear
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  Speaker 4: your dad's voice, and he's even last night. My dad
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  Speaker 4: has these different phrases that really stick in your brain
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  Speaker 4: that you might remember, like stepping on each other's air hoses.
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  Speaker 4: And we had date night last night and some things happened,
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  Speaker 4: and he was like, not to use a line from
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  Speaker 4: your dad's book, but you just stepped on my air hose.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, here we go.
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  Speaker 4: But no, I mean, I think that's none of us
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  Speaker 4: are perfect, and that is the message that my parents
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  Speaker 4: have always taught me, to give grace to people and
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  Speaker 4: to assume goodwill about other people.
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  Speaker 1: But we need we.
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  Speaker 4: All need the message, you know, and we all need
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  Speaker 4: to come back to these communication principles that I've learned
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  Speaker 4: from my parents that we write about in this kid's book,
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  Speaker 4: that we did together, just over and over and assume
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  Speaker 4: goodwill about other people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on that
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  Speaker 1: as well? Well?
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  Speaker 2: We refer to it as negative encouragement when we do
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  Speaker 2: our Love and Respect conferences two day event, I share
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  Speaker 2: the story when Sarah picked up my Love and Respect
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  Speaker 2: book and chased me around the house saying, what would
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  Speaker 2: you say to a husband treating his wife the way
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  Speaker 2: you're treating me right now? And the crowd goes crazy.
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  Speaker 2: But we do that because it was true, but also
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  Speaker 2: because I think people have this idea that everybody has
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  Speaker 2: a perfect relationship out there except for us. So the
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  Speaker 2: key is how do we rebound? How do we repair
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  Speaker 2: when we have these heated fellowship moments? As I refer
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  Speaker 2: to them.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I know I'm going to be lucky enough to
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  Speaker 1: have you guys on my podcast wind Down too, so
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to hold a couple of those questions. But
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  Speaker 1: when it refers to the part two of things right,
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  Speaker 1: being in another marriage, what do you think is one
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  Speaker 1: of your biggest tips and tools for people that are
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  Speaker 1: are hesitant to start over to go Okay, I didn't
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  Speaker 1: get let's say love and respect in the past, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm afraid to step into this chapter or open myself
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  Speaker 1: up again. You know, what can they do to open
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  Speaker 1: their hearts up but also to prepare themselves for the
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  Speaker 1: next relationship.
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  Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question, And I mean when we've
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  Speaker 2: been hurt obviously, when there has been rejection, when there
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  Speaker 2: has been that kind of pain. My dad attempted to
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  Speaker 2: strangle my mother to death when I was two and
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  Speaker 2: a half. I witnessed that, and my mom separated, took
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  Speaker 2: my sister and me, and left for five years. I
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  Speaker 2: talk about me being the wounded healer as a result
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  Speaker 2: of that. And so when you go through trauma like that,
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  Speaker 2: who isn't going to be very apprehensive about getting into
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  Speaker 2: a relationship and subjecting yourself to that again, And that's
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  Speaker 2: a very serious question, and certainly it's one that I
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  Speaker 2: feel deeply about, because there are bits of skill you need,
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  Speaker 2: bits of knowledge you need just a little skill, a
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  Speaker 2: little knowledge. But if you don't kind of have that skill,
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  Speaker 2: you don't have that knowledge, or you've tried that and
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  Speaker 2: didn't work. I mean, then people get into a point
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  Speaker 2: where they really get fearful, and they're overcome by that fear.
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  Speaker 2: But my mission. People have asked me, what is the
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  Speaker 2: key to you know, you think the problems in marriage?
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  Speaker 2: I think, well, given there's basically two good people with goodwill,
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  Speaker 2: is joy made reference that we didn't marry Hitler's distant cousin,
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  Speaker 2: You know that there is basic good will, then I
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  Speaker 2: believe oftentimes in the initial stages it's honest smiths understanding. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and so that honest misunderstanding is really the culprit. Now,
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  Speaker 2: there are wicked things that happen, violence that my dad
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  Speaker 2: implemented on my mother, that's a different scenario. But most
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  Speaker 2: people in those initial stages, we just are on two
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  Speaker 2: different planets. I call it a pink and blue perspective.
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  Speaker 2: And just as you reference, there are different ways of
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  Speaker 2: interpreting things, and we have good hearts, goodwill, but we
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  Speaker 2: are just missing each other. And then I can talk
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  Speaker 2: more about that, and then the result of that is
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  Speaker 2: that we get upset, we get angried with each other,
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  Speaker 2: and we keep thinking, you know, this isn't that difficult.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not asking you to do something that's difficult, So
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  Speaker 2: it must be that you don't care and I don't matter.
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  Speaker 1: Which is so hard because it's everyone's own past traumas
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  Speaker 1: being re inflicted. But it's not really them. It's just
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  Speaker 1: our own stuff too, you know, But yet we place
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  Speaker 1: it on them. Sometimes will remind myself that my now
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  Speaker 1: husband doesn't have to pay the debts of my last
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  Speaker 1: husband and the things that he did to me, you know,
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  Speaker 1: like I but sometimes I will place him in a
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  Speaker 1: place where I'm like, he didn't do that, So why
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  Speaker 1: am I reacting in a way like he did.
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  Speaker 3: X, Y or Z. No.
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  Speaker 2: It's very wise, I mean, that's very wise. I mean
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  Speaker 2: that's exactly the kind of wisdom and prudence a person
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  Speaker 2: needs to bring in these situations in the moment. It's
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  Speaker 2: not always easy. But obviously, stepping back and looking at
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  Speaker 2: this situation, I think you even referenced earlier sometimes we
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  Speaker 2: need to have a conversation about how we're going to
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  Speaker 2: have conversations. Yeah, you need to be able to say, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: in the event that this happens, it's unfair to you,
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  Speaker 2: It dishonors you. It's not fair for me to project
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  Speaker 2: on to you something that's not true. But I need
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  Speaker 2: some grace being given to me during that time, and
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  Speaker 2: can we kind of talk about that at some point.
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  Speaker 2: Not to belabor the point, but I don't feel it's
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  Speaker 2: honorable to you that I would, you know, somehow misrepresent.
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  Speaker 1: You, right, joy, did you because you lead the conferences
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  Speaker 1: or the Is that right? I did for teny years.
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  Speaker 4: I directed their conferences right out of college and then
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  Speaker 4: out of that, you know, I was kind of just
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  Speaker 4: the event planner. But because I worked the book table
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  Speaker 4: and got everybody kind of in line as people were waiting,
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  Speaker 4: I had tons of conversations with people. And the thing
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  Speaker 4: that I heard over and over and over is people saying, man,
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  Speaker 4: I wish we would have had this twenty years ago,
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  Speaker 4: if only I knew then what I know now. So
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  Speaker 4: for about almost a decade, then I worked with my
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  Speaker 4: parents and I had like a vision for eighteen to
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  Speaker 4: thirty five year olds when I was in that demographic.
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  Speaker 4: I'm now forty four, which, by the way, we both
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  Speaker 4: grew up in Michigan and we're about the same age.
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  Speaker 4: So fellow Michigander, Yeah, I love it.
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  Speaker 1: Do you play Uker? Oh?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yesh in Heisso we used to play it in class?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, same, Yeah. Oh I love that. So which
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  Speaker 1: part of sorry, which part of Michigan East Lansing.
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  Speaker 4: But my dad is in Grand Rapids. Now my family
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  Speaker 4: all lived to Grand Rapids.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why I loved the book too. I
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  Speaker 1: just like knew the Michiganders coming out of that just
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  Speaker 1: exuding there you go. I love that.
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  Speaker 4: But so yeah, I was just trying to serve whether
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  Speaker 4: it was it was kind of a demographic of people
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  Speaker 4: who were dating, wanting to be married, or newly married,
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  Speaker 4: because I, you know, told my dad, like, these principles, uh,
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  Speaker 4: you know apply to everyone, but there's different things that
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  Speaker 4: our generation is facing that your generation didn't, and so
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  Speaker 4: I was trying.
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  Speaker 1: To speak to that.
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  Speaker 4: So that was that was I worked with them for
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  Speaker 4: many years and my and my dad and I have
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  Speaker 4: joked we're always doing some project together another. Now I'm
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  Speaker 4: his literary agent and we just wrote a book together.
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  Speaker 1: But yes, I'm so excited to chat about the book.
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  Speaker 1: I do want to ask one question because a lot
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  Speaker 1: of our ide listeners are, you know, either on their
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  Speaker 1: second third marriage, but a little bit older. And there's
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  Speaker 1: seems to be a rise in the gray divorce. You know,
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  Speaker 1: people fifty plus getting divorced. And I'm curious, have you
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  Speaker 1: seen that trend as well or is it something where
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  Speaker 1: it's do people just they lost communication or why do
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  Speaker 1: you think at that age it's like people are wanting
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  Speaker 1: to just be alone or start over.
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  Speaker 2: No, I mean this is a burden that I have
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  Speaker 2: because I think of my own mom and dad. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, dead didn't have evil
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  Speaker 2: will here security. He had his issues, he had his moments,
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  Speaker 2: the incidences versus patterns, And so I came out of
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  Speaker 2: that kind of pain. And I used to watch my
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  Speaker 2: mom and dad and I didn't have a vocabulary, but
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  Speaker 2: I just felt like they were missing each other. And
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  Speaker 2: how is it the two people who really care about
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  Speaker 2: each other early on end up coming to this point
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  Speaker 2: where someone said to me the other day in her counseling,
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  Speaker 2: and she said, women are just telling me I've outgrown
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  Speaker 2: my husband and so she's leaving because I've outgrown him,
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  Speaker 2: And I think, well, what does that exactly mean? And
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  Speaker 2: so there is this I think heartache out there, and
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  Speaker 2: my mission is to say, well, let's reconsider. I'm so
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  Speaker 2: grateful that my mom and dad reconciled five years later,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm so blessed by that and they changed. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it really did change for the better. And so that's
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  Speaker 2: part of my life message. I always am hopeful that
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  Speaker 2: it doesn't have to end in that kind of despair,
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  Speaker 2: because you're going to end up very long when you're
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  Speaker 2: eighty nine. There's a component here just from the research
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  Speaker 2: I have my doctorate in family studies. You don't want
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: to do something premature here. You want to think long
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  Speaker 2: term here, and what does it mean to invest in
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  Speaker 2: relationship when you may not be getting from that relationship
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  Speaker 2: which you're hoping.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Whose idea was
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  Speaker 1: it for the kid's book?
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  Speaker 4: Or my mom?
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  Speaker 3: Oh? Really?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah? We were sitting around a couple of summers ago
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  Speaker 4: talking about just his next books and projects, and and
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  Speaker 4: my mom, you know, she just came, she goes, you know,
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  Speaker 4: I related, you should do a kid's book about these
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  Speaker 4: communication principles and said it in the Land of Enough,
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: which is childhood stories that he told me in you
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  Speaker 4: know the dark Michigan winters when it was dark at
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  Speaker 4: five o'clock.
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  Speaker 1: You mean from September to basically Easter like our last
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Eastern Yeah, uh huh they I know snow not the
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Easter bunny. Okay, So give us like because I'm a
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  Speaker 1: mom of three so and we love we love a
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: good kid's book. I love too when there is a
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  Speaker 1: lesson after it. Uh, it's actually funny. My husband, my
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  Speaker 1: son is obsessed. Is too a half and he's obsessed
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  Speaker 1: with this one book and at the very end he
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  Speaker 1: I don't know why he loves it so much. But
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: every time I'm like, there's no lesson, there's no like
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  Speaker 1: I want to like have him just like walk away
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  Speaker 1: with something. And it's just kind of ends. And my
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: husband and I both are like, I don't like it.
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  Speaker 1: Like we got we gotta hide this one on the
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: shelf because he keeps asking for it, Like, so what
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: is like what is the overall theme? I mean I
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: know what it is, but like give our listeners, like
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: why should the mamas out there get this book.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the reasons that we decided
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: to you know, we both care about these communication principles
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  Speaker 4: that are pulled from a book that he wrote called
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  Speaker 4: Speak your Mind, which is asking yourself before you speak
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  Speaker 4: or write an email or whatever, is it true, is
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  Speaker 4: it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And so
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  Speaker 4: this is something this is a message that he shared
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  Speaker 4: with me when I was in my twenties and we
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: were just talking recently, Like he probably shared it with
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  Speaker 4: me when I was in middle school in high school,
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: but it didn't absorb. But in my twenties I really
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: asked when I was in the joining the workforce, and
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: you know, really needed to get a hold of how
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  Speaker 4: I communicate it because I'm someone who will blurt and
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  Speaker 4: put my foot in my mouth. So we were so
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: really these principles we want to get to parents, you know,
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: because we really think that it will actually help them
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  Speaker 4: romantically and in professionally. But we thought, you know what,
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  Speaker 4: it probably would change the world if kids started learning
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  Speaker 4: these principles young. And I am like you, there are
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  Speaker 4: books that I'm like read to them and I'm like,
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  Speaker 4: this is my numbingly boring or it's like super silly
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  Speaker 4: and funny, but there's no lesson or it's trying to
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  Speaker 4: teach a lesson and it's kind of heavy handed. Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: and so the Land of Enough, which he made up
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: when I was little, is just a place where anything
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: I could imagine could come true. And there was these
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: two characters, Biga and Douga, who are best friends. I
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: now know as an adult that like he was trying
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: to teach you. It was like the concepts of being
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: and doing. So he was like trying to teach me
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  Speaker 4: all these like philosophical things but through a really really
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  Speaker 4: fun and funny medium. And so that's what we tried
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  Speaker 4: to do, is teach the principles of it, asking yourself,
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  Speaker 4: is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
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  Speaker 3: Is it clear?
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  Speaker 4: So that kids like me who might blurt learn when
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  Speaker 4: to think before they speak, or kids like his best
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  Speaker 4: friend Duga, who need to learn when to speak up
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  Speaker 4: to have the confidence to do so.
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  Speaker 1: I love that and I feel like I could really
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  Speaker 1: use this book too, honestly for my ten and seven
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  Speaker 1: year old because the words that they're saying back to
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  Speaker 1: each other, I'm constantly like, Jolie, that is hurtful. That
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  Speaker 1: hurts your brother or Jace, like that is not nice
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to say to your sister like it and it's and
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  Speaker 1: I don't that's only really the words that I have
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: to say from it, and instead I can be like,
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  Speaker 1: is that kind? Like I mean, you know, at times,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, how would you like to feel
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  Speaker 1: like if you heard that, like that's not that doesn't
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  Speaker 1: really feel very nice. And then like to Jolie, I'm like, okay,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: what is the truth? Like obviously is do you think
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  Speaker 1: you're that? You know? And it's it's hard to, especially
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: in those moments, have those kind of conversations. So I
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: appreciate you helping, yeah, helping the parents figure out how
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: to phrase it in a way that it hopefully can
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  Speaker 1: stop the name calling or the the choice words.
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  Speaker 4: Well, and two as a parent, I'm also a parent
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: of three three years old, six years old, and seven
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: years old, and I can sit them on the couch
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: and tell them lessons all day long, but as you know,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: like if we're actually because they need to hear it
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: over and over and over, but it will sink in
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: if it's in a story form and a visual reference point.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: So one of the other things besides those four principles
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: that we want to become a household phrase is can
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: I get a do over? So the title is Biga
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: gets a due.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I love that because we do make mistakes. I say
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: it all the time my kids, Sorry, Mommy lost her
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: shit on you, Like I asked you four times to
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: put your shoes away and you did not, so by
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: the fourth time, I'm yelling and I didn't want to yell.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah, totally.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: I mean the amount of times that I have to
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: My dad always says, you know, you're supposed to be
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: the parent in the room, but we oftentimes act like
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: a child. And so that phrase helps me when I
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: can apologize and say, Mommy was acting like a kid here,
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: you know, and I'm really sorry. Can I get a
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: do over?
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: So talk to me about the do over? Then is
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: it just they get a chance to basically redo it again.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: Well, it's I mean, and Dad, you can jump in.
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: I don't mean to be taking over, but I think
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: sometimes love sometimes it's really hard for kids to say
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And that is you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: that's a practice we want to have in our family.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: But we were on a podcast recently where it's a
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: mom who speaks to adoptive and foster parents, and so
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: sometimes you have your family rules of like we say sorry,
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: will you forgive me? And you're bringing in children who
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: have different environments that they've grown up or just even
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: on the playground, you know, one family might do one thing,
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: one might do another, and so do over feels like
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: it's a really accessible way to kind of say I'm
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: sorry and I messed up how I communicated and so
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: it's just and it's for parents too. Like my dad
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: and I we got into a little thing this spring
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: and he like came to me with like a twinkle
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: in his eye and he was like, can we get
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: a do over? And we both started laughing because we
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: have the reference point of this book, and so we
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: just think it'll make it lighter, you know, for you know,
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: you can say to your kid, like, hey, why don't
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: you why don't you be like Biga and go to
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: your brother and I and say can we get a
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: do over? It's just a it's an easier lift for them.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I love that though. That's very that's very sweet. And
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I love the fact too that the father daughter dynamic.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I think it's you know, I had a difficult father
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: daughter dynamic growing up. But I do believe that when
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: you grow up and you start to learn more, like Okay,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: how is my dad's dad to my dad? You know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and like wow, how why is he the way that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: he is? You kind of stopped start stop, I stopped
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: placing blame and just kind of and I'm not saying, oh,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: it's just who he is, Like, but I also I'm
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: curious and I want to ask you this too. Is
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like my generation, our generation, like we're in
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: our forties, we've done therapy, or at least we've we've
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: gone like I've been going for since my twenties, and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like our parents my yeah, yours and
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: mind I'm sure your counselor so you have, but like
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: maybe I don't know other friends of yours parents, Like
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know anybody else that's ever done therapy or
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: gone into therapy. And it's hard sometimes, Like when I'm
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: with my dad, he's very like anxiously attached, and like,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I see that so much because I was also very
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: anxiously attached, Like that was something that I was like,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: I have a huge problem in that area. And then
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: when I witness it in him. It honestly drives me nuts,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: you know, and he doesn't understand what it is or
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and I try to explain it to him, and I'm like,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you just we can have silence, we can have him.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: You don't have to make up for lost time, like
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: we're okay, you know. But it's it's interesting because I
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: don't know with that generation fifties plus, do they want
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: to hear the therapy things, because I almost feel like
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: they kind of look at us like, oh, yeah, you've
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: done the therapy, you know, you know, the stuffy Do
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: they want to taken that information? I guess I don't know.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question. I think that's kind of
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: the first time that question has been asked that way.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: You know. I think of my own dad, you know,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: the baby. I mean, you didn't even you didn't.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Even go there, you didn't even say I love you,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Like I don't even remember my mom's yeah, saying like
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I love you to my mom.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Yester day I was twenty nine. I still remember on
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: the phone my dad was talking to me and he
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: said I love you, And I said to myself, that's
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: the first time I've heard him say that to me.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Same with my mom. When you got divorced. It was
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: like those shoes are those first time I ever heard
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I'm like what, I'm like, I say it ten million
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: times a day to my kids.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, no, But I think you're you know,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know your father, but there is an insecurity
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: that he has that he's probably felt, like, as you
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: just said, he failed you. He's wondering if you, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: hold that against him. I mean, I don't know the
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: dynamics there, but I think this challenge for all of
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: us is part of the emotional intelligence is self awareness
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: and coming to the point of looking at the strengths,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: looking at the vulnerabilities, and being able to continue to
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: grow in that. And I think that we have some
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: real potential for great wisdom. I applaud that the question
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: is how do we deal with our parents? And this
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: is where you're seeing younger kids are canceling their mom
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: and dads because, you know, they feel hurt by their
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: mom and dad. Their poor mom and dad are hurtful,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: they feel offended by mom and dad, Their poor mom
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: and dad are offensive. But is that the truth? I mean,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: are your parents really good will people who are trying
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: the best. My mother used to always say to me,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: your daddy doesn't know how to be a daddy. His
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: daddy died in the nineteen eighteen Flew epidemic when he
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: was three months old. Your daddy does not know how
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: to be a daddy. She continued to express empathy toward
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: the very man who she was separated from for many years.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And I one day I realized that was a gift
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: that she gave to me, that she was empathetic toward this.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: And so I never had hostility toward my father, and
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: there was a recognition that he had his limitations and
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: that he didn't have a daddy. Did I tell you that?
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: And so the same thing with you. And I think
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: this is the challenge. Instead of judging people, let's extend
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: empathy to them, which is a real sign of your wisdom.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I mean that needs to be applauded. And I'm burdened
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: about the younger generation that is not empathetic toward the
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: shortcomings of their moms and dads.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: Now, well, I think you know Jana as someone, yes,
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: who has been going to therapy on and off by
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: myself or with my husband. And sometimes people are like
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: you and your husband, you know, go to marriage counseling,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: even though your dad were all love and respect, and
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: I'm like, we call it preventive medicine, and we love
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: seeking counsel from my dad, but it's also good to have,
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: you know, a neutral third party.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Well, she also knows that I told her upfront that
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: I'm always going to be fifty one percent in favor
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of Matt, her husband always going that direction. She didn't
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: want to hear that. He didn't want to.
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, my brother's spouse is because which I think actually
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: is fair, because any person marrying into our family would
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: assume or to any family, that the parent is going
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: to side with their child. So I love and hate
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: that they do that. Anyways, one of my a term
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: that I'm sure you know from being in therapy that
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: really helped me let go of some people in my life,
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: if not from a like I'm never going to have
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: a relationship with you, but actually to have freedom in
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: that relationship, is the term radical acceptance. Hell yeah, yeah,
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: And I just like when my therapist defined that for me.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: For some I just was I really wanted to mend
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: the relationship, and I finally got to a point where
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: I was like I can't change them, and I'm just
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: going to radically accept who they are and as a
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: person of faith, just give grace to them. It doesn't
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: mean that I have to have unreasonable boundaries or you
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: need to protect myself in a way. But I actually
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: found that I didn't need to protect myself as much
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: anymore when I gave them radical acceptance. And I think
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: that's something that I would hope for our generation who
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: has parents who won't go to therapy, like my dad's saying,
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: just outside of really being evil or really need to
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: separating yourself. I just feel like a lot of people
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: are going to have their parents get to their deathbed
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: and they were going to regret all those years that
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: they set way too strong of boundaries just because their
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: parents didn't operate the way that they did in their
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: enlightened having gone to counseling self.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I you know, I reflect on that
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: even myself. I had a huge blowout, you know, last
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: year with my mom, and I think a lot of
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: it was my own expectations of who I wanted her
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: to be and of who I thought she was going
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: to be as a grandparent, you know, or as a mom,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: like or the things that I wanted, And it was
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: like I can either hold on to this like steak
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and be like, Nope, I don't want a relationship with
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: you because you're not giving me what I want and
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: you don't want to go in a girls shore with
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: me like that, like and I'm just and I just
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: was like, or I accept that she is who she
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: is and the times we've had and that she is
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: my mother and the like the grandma of my children
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and we can have still good times together and doesn't
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: have to look how I thought it was going to look.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: And I think it's it's it's like a sad but
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: yet okay, like we're great. She just came to the
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: lake House in Alabama and we have we've had a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: great time. And it's just I but I put so
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: much like I'm going to steak on my boundaries and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I'm and then I'm like this is this actually more
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: exhausting to be angry at someone who that's not who
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: they're that's not who they are.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the word freedom came to mind when you were
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: explaining just how you felt in the first situation versus
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: the second.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Sorry dad, what we're saying?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: No, I mean I created this analogy years ago about,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: you know, a son who's very, very upset about his
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: father and because his father pushed him off this cliff
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: and fell on the rocks, was knocked out in the hospital,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: and they could never really find the father, and so
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: for years hanging on. My dad pushed me off a cliff.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: But there was a helicopter pilot who videotaped the whole thing,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: and his father's father was in the woods with a shotgun,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and Lewis his father in the back, and his father
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: fell forward and pushed him off the cliff and then
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: went into the open sea, and the grandfather went in
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: the woods. And I used that analogy to say, it's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: helped me to be empathetic toward people who are inflicting
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: pain upon me, because quite often there was another generation
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: and if you will sit down with him and pull
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: out that story, you'll find explanation as to why they've
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: made decisions the way they've made it, and quite often
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: it's self protective. They were so deeply hurt that they
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: made a commitment never again, and of course now then
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: we suffer the consequences of that in the next generation.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: And that image really helped me let go of my
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: father and forgive him. But that doesn't mean you excuse
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the wrongdoing, and it doesn't mean that I wasn't the
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: wounded healer. I tell people, you know, they sent me
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: to a military school at age thirteen. I was there
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: for the next five years. I wet the bed until
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I was eleven. I tell people, probably that's more information
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you want to know. But there was a moment when
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I picked up a butcher knife and I told Mom
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I was probably about eleven, I'm going to stab dad.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I'm going to kill him. And she freaked out. She
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: had two businesses, very successful woman, and I realized it
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: was false. Bravado freaked her out. But I use those
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: illustrations to say, look, people who have hurt us often
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: have been hurt and how do we then deal with
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: that without accepting that? But if I come if I
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: lived my whole life as the victim, then then I'm
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: damaged goods forever. I've got to come to a point
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: where I how am I going to process this? And
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: this is where your wisdom is so in refreshing. You're saying,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna analyze this, I'm gonna look at this,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to assess this and I'm going
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: to accept some things here. I wish I could have
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: my expectation fulfilled. I think there there could have been
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: so many things that have come to me that would
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: have been beautiful and enriching and meaningful, but I was
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: deprived of those. But now, what what do I do
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: with that?
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: All this is such good in fragmation too, like for
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: people that are starting over and you know, just to
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: circle back to your book one last time before we
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: close out, like why why? Also would this be a
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: great book for people going through a divorce, you know,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: with young kids to read to them, because you know,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: I remember when I when my kids were younger and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I was going through my last divorce. It was really
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: hard to explain things to my kids too because they
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: were at you know, they were just younger, but it
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: was it was hard to you know, kind of hold
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: on to hope too. So what would you say would
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: be the hope within the book for someone that's divorced
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: that has kids that's also reading the book.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, first of all, we love our kids.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: We love them so much. We die for them. I
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: used to say to the kids I love you so
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: much I go into a burning car to save you.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I love you that much. And so, apart
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: from our own pain, we want our children and these
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: four questions, is it true? Is a kind? Is it necessary?
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Is it clear? The book that I wrote, we did
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: a national research on this. These are all distinct. They
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: don't bleed into each other. They're like four legs on
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: a table. These are very powerful concepts, and as parents,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: we want what's best for our children. And so the
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: question we're asking is do I want my child to lie?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Do I want them to be unkind? Do I want
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: them to say things that aren't necessary? Do I want
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: them to go around being unclear? No parent would say
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: yes to that. So I think we're giving this to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: them as a gift apart from our own trauma, our
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: own pain. And I think as adults that sometimes is unfair.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we have to be the generation that breaks the
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: curse that we are the victims of somebody else. But
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: let's make a decision as the adult in the room
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: not to put our children through that. So it's a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: standalone opportunity, and that would be the first thought that
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: comes to my mind. I don't know if that answers
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: what you're asking.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: No, it's great and I love it, and you can
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: pre order be it gets to do over now and
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: it comes out on August eighteenth, and I have so
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: many more questions and I'm so lucky that I get
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: to steal you again for wind down because I've just
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: been writing notes. I feel like it's a good day
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: of therapy. So thank you for coming on. I'll do
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: part two. Yes, and are you really going through it
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: and need some advice of feeling lost in your divorce process?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the infos in the show notes. Follow us on socials,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: I do part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: love is the main objective. Thank you guys so much
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: for coming on.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you to you extract fo exct F