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The Gospel’s Encouragement for Discouraged Preachers with Eric Attinger · Ministry Minded

0:16
SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
0:20
SPEAKER_02: a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us in our messy ministries.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right here in Pax Sinus, Pennsylvania.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: And in this edition of the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
0:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to share another conversation between Pastor Eric Ettinger and myself
0:42
SPEAKER_02: as we delve even deeper into the heart of ministry and what it means to stand and
0:48
SPEAKER_02: minister as a preacher or as a pastor.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: In this particular episode, we talk a lot about pastoral discouragement
0:57
SPEAKER_02: what that is and how to combat it as a child of God and why the gospel is the only solution.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think oftentimes the rhetoric of being gospel-centered has sometimes become
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Somewhat of a cliché,
1:13
SPEAKER_02: it's become this tired use of language,
1:16
SPEAKER_02: that word,
1:17
SPEAKER_02: oh,
1:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm gospel-centered this,
1:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm gospel-centered that.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: But essentially, at its core, there is no other solution other than to be gospel-centered.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Eric and I tease that out throughout this conversation as we seek to encourage
1:32
SPEAKER_02: other pastors who are discouraged by pointing them to the permanent solution,
1:36
SPEAKER_02: which is Jesus Christ himself.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: So,
1:39
SPEAKER_02: if you are someone in the church,
1:42
SPEAKER_02: if you're a leader in the church,
1:43
SPEAKER_02: a lay leader in the church,
1:44
SPEAKER_02: or even if you are just a person who attends church on a regular basis,
1:48
SPEAKER_02: I think you will find a lot of encouragement throughout this episode as you gain
1:53
SPEAKER_02: some insight and some understanding of what it means to be a pastor,
1:59
SPEAKER_02: to be a leader,
2:00
SPEAKER_02: and some of the struggles that they go through,
2:03
SPEAKER_02: that they deal with,
2:04
SPEAKER_02: that they are confronted by on a daily basis.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: and why the same solution that they themselves have experienced and found is that
2:13
SPEAKER_02: with which they are giving an offering to you through the course of their preaching,
2:18
SPEAKER_02: through the course of what they are delivering in their sermons,
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Lord willing,
2:22
SPEAKER_02: hopefully.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: So, we talk a lot about that.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: We talk about the purpose of preaching out of Ephesians 4, especially how that's tied to the topic of
2:32
SPEAKER_02: of what a church needs,
2:33
SPEAKER_02: what do they need to hear the most,
2:36
SPEAKER_02: and what is the message that actually builds them up and equips them to do the work
2:40
SPEAKER_02: of the ministry,
2:40
SPEAKER_02: as Paul says.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: So,
2:42
SPEAKER_02: we talk a lot about that,
2:42
SPEAKER_02: so I think you'll find this particular episode encouraging and enlightening and enriching,
2:47
SPEAKER_02: and I pray that you are just able to have your faith built up by this conversation.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: So, enjoy, relax, and I'm thankful that you can
2:59
SPEAKER_02: you can eavesdrop on this conversation between Pastor Eric and myself.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: So, enjoy.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: Let's just start right there.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: And again,
3:07
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to keep making this a habit to where I give you stuff that we should
3:10
SPEAKER_02: talk about and then we talk about something completely not that.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of life, though.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: Nothing goes as planned.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: But, like, I think it's worth talking about the idea of how can pastors, preachers, Bible teachers...
3:29
SPEAKER_02: safeguard themselves, let's say, from discouragement?
3:33
SPEAKER_02: Or where should they go when they are feeling those bouts of discouragement?
3:38
SPEAKER_02: And I ask this because I think there's this notion that,
3:41
SPEAKER_02: and I think we've touched on it before,
3:44
SPEAKER_02: where it's just like,
3:45
SPEAKER_02: oh, you're the preacher, you're the pastor, you should have all these things figured out.
3:49
SPEAKER_02: You're kind of put on this pedestal of spiritual example,
3:55
SPEAKER_02: and your testimony should be impenetrable and all that kind of stuff.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to the idea of rubber meets the road ministry...
4:05
SPEAKER_02: That's obviously not true,
4:07
SPEAKER_02: but more to the point of the fact that,
4:08
SPEAKER_02: like,
4:09
SPEAKER_02: discouragement and frustration are clearly things that preachers and pastors battle with.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: So let's kind of tease that out a little bit.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: How do...
4:20
SPEAKER_02: How do pastors and preachers resist that?
4:22
SPEAKER_02: Where should they go?
4:24
SPEAKER_02: Maybe,
4:25
SPEAKER_02: perhaps,
4:25
SPEAKER_02: what are some of the things that you have found in your own experience when you've
4:29
SPEAKER_02: had to deal with that?
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great question.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: And maybe one that's not talked about enough.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: Because everybody, I think, is going to run into it at some point.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: And the hardest thing is...
4:40
SPEAKER_00: it's not the hard thing is it's not about the level of maturity of christian you
4:44
SPEAKER_00: are in this sense so you can't go to like your most mature christian friends
4:47
SPEAKER_00: because i mean they are they know the bible really well but certain things they
4:51
SPEAKER_00: might not understand just like you know i mean just like anybody that works in any
4:54
SPEAKER_00: other field like a nurse or a teacher would try to say oh you don't understand it's
4:57
SPEAKER_00: like to be in charge of 25 30 kids at a time you know a teacher might say something
4:59
SPEAKER_00: like that and they want to talk to like another teacher so i think the best bet is
5:03
SPEAKER_00: to find somebody else who does ministry try to have at least one or two really
5:07
SPEAKER_00: strong confidants
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's good to have groups.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, I love, especially in our area, it's really good.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of places do this where,
5:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
5:14
SPEAKER_00: you have a little group of church pastors that get together,
5:17
SPEAKER_00: kind of open up.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: That's really healthy.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like group in a way what therapists would call group.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: It's good to have, I think, pastors that you can be honest with, ones that won't, you know, judge you.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: I guess ones that you build a relationship with.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: But that's why I say at least one, maybe two that you can go to.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: But then there's always those times where it's like they're not available or you
5:35
SPEAKER_00: don't even sometimes feel comfortable talking.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: There's just sometimes I was even thinking in my own life,
5:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel comfortable even telling people sometimes how I'm feeling.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Especially because what you just said about how a pastor is viewed.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And like you said, the pedestal.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's almost as if they assume that on the test,
5:53
SPEAKER_00: according to get quote-unquote ordained,
5:55
SPEAKER_00: which I always say,
5:56
SPEAKER_00: everybody's technically ordained to share the gospel at least.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: But when they think, oh, if you're a pastor with that title...
6:02
SPEAKER_00: you passed some test by God that you passed the life test and you checked all the
6:06
SPEAKER_00: boxes and you got in,
6:07
SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
6:08
SPEAKER_00: It's almost how they feel.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, no, it's not how it feels at all.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Go back and read Moses, man.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: He had a really tough time.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Like I bet, like I would actually love, like Moses would be a good guy to talk to at this podcast.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Like,
6:21
SPEAKER_00: dude,
6:21
SPEAKER_00: how did you feel when everybody was murmuring against you and your brother and your
6:24
SPEAKER_00: sister wanted to get rid of you?
6:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, man, you felt all alone and there were no like pastors in Canaan.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: You just like go, you know, Hey, I'm in the wilderness.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: Anybody around here knows what I'm going through.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: So I would love to talk to Moses because that's the hardest part.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
6:38
SPEAKER_00: that's when you have to realize,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess you have to really get down and say,
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm never alone.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: And God is actually there with me.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: And I know sometimes like even as pastors,
6:45
SPEAKER_00: we can kind of say,
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I know,
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I know he's always here,
6:47
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
6:47
SPEAKER_00: I actually really need to talk to somebody.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: But really,
6:49
SPEAKER_00: I think there is something,
6:51
SPEAKER_00: even if you have to go outside,
6:52
SPEAKER_00: or I was saying,
6:53
SPEAKER_00: I go and drive sometimes,
6:54
SPEAKER_00: sometimes I'll have music,
6:55
SPEAKER_00: sometimes I won't,
6:56
SPEAKER_00: and just talk,
6:56
SPEAKER_00: almost like talking prayers out loud has helped me,
6:59
SPEAKER_00: sometimes getting things out that are bottling up.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: If you don't have somebody you can directly talk to right then,
7:04
SPEAKER_00: other than,
7:05
SPEAKER_00: of course,
7:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:06
SPEAKER_00: our spouses and stuff do a great job of absorbing some of our stuff,
7:09
SPEAKER_00: but at the same time...
7:11
SPEAKER_00: may not understand where we're coming from,
7:13
SPEAKER_00: sometimes especially when you can't understand why you're feeling the discouragement,
7:18
SPEAKER_00: and you can't put your finger on,
7:19
SPEAKER_00: oh,
7:19
SPEAKER_00: this person said something about my sermon,
7:21
SPEAKER_00: or I don't think I'm delivering very well on this.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: You can't even say one of those things.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: You're like,
7:25
SPEAKER_00: well,
7:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't really have anybody sticking out that's really grumbling at me,
7:27
SPEAKER_00: and I can't think of an email,
7:28
SPEAKER_00: and I can't think of where I really screwed up completely that I feel like,
7:31
SPEAKER_00: and you get like...
7:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: It can happen.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: So the ultimate answer, of course, is God and going to Christ and just letting him know your heart.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Because I always go back to that one, you know, his peace is unlike the world.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's peace that will pass all understanding.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I always tell people,
7:47
SPEAKER_00: like,
7:48
SPEAKER_00: there's going to be times where you'll have peace and you don't understand why.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like Paul.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't think he was making it up when he was saying, I'm content in all situations.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't think Paul was saying, hey, most of the time I'm pretty good.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: I think he just meant,
8:03
SPEAKER_00: hey,
8:04
SPEAKER_00: because I have Christ with me,
8:05
SPEAKER_00: and he gives me this peace that I don't even know why I'm calm right now.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Nero might chop my head off, and I'm actually not even worried about it.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: I can't explain why other than it's Christ in me.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: as doing this.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's some reality to what Paul says there that we could probably
8:20
SPEAKER_00: apply from scriptures to ourselves.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: How did Paul do it in prison with no pastor?
8:24
SPEAKER_00: Again, just like Moses, who was he talking to that was going through what he was?
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Nobody.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: Especially when he's abandoned in prison.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
8:30
SPEAKER_02: as he says,
8:31
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the end of 2 Timothy,
8:33
SPEAKER_02: he's like,
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SPEAKER_02: this person left,
8:35
SPEAKER_00: this person's not here,
8:37
SPEAKER_02: and all these people are gone now.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, where did he look to for...
8:43
SPEAKER_02: reassurance or for confidence and i think what you touched on is a really good
8:49
SPEAKER_02: point to make which is the fact that not that this is not true in other fields but
8:55
SPEAKER_02: at least from my experience within pastoral ministry pastoral discouragement if you
9:00
SPEAKER_02: if you want to say is somewhat nebulous um
9:05
SPEAKER_02: And that's not to say that it doesn't come from very pointed sources,
9:08
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
9:09
SPEAKER_02: like comments or just – or people saying certain things or what have you,
9:14
SPEAKER_02: criticisms,
9:14
SPEAKER_02: blah,
9:15
SPEAKER_02: blah,
9:15
SPEAKER_02: blah.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: Those are certainly true and those certainly happen.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: But then I think there's also like this unidentifiable but like always present feeling or sense that –
9:31
SPEAKER_02: everything that you're doing is not adequate and not really fulfilling what you're supposed to be doing.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: So there's always this sense of, like, you're not really, like...
9:43
SPEAKER_02: fulfilling your obligations.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
9:46
SPEAKER_00: No, I know exactly what you mean.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: It's actually this feeling I used to get.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: It's really funny when you're saying that.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: It actually gave me flashbacks to when I was in college and I'd come up to finals week.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: And I always had this overwhelming feeling because, I mean, and I would study hours and hours.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: I did usually pretty well on them.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: But there's always this feeling like I'm not done yet.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: And, like, I know I looked at that 10 times, but I should look at it again.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: I should do this.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And, like, obviously it's not identical to this thing, but I think sometimes...
10:12
SPEAKER_00: that feeling might come from these like...
10:14
SPEAKER_00: First off,
10:14
SPEAKER_00: it's heavy to know when you're a preacher to know the truth of the Bible and what
10:17
SPEAKER_00: it really says and then how the world's really living and how society's really running.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: You know things are really wacky and backwards and things are really off and you see how lost people are.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's almost like this.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: It reminds me of like studying for a test
10:30
SPEAKER_00: where there's it's a bottomless pit of like i can't get to the bottom of studying
10:34
SPEAKER_00: because i could study it again and i could know it even better next time and how
10:37
SPEAKER_00: can i stop and take a coffee break if i need to study you know i mean i think even
10:42
SPEAKER_00: preachers can get wrapped up in this overwhelming like there's like there's so many
10:45
SPEAKER_00: people out there in the community and i mean i don't even care if i got five
10:47
SPEAKER_00: there's five people that are now really coming to christ there's all these people
10:50
SPEAKER_00: out here and look what's going on and like i feel like it's it's almost like
10:54
SPEAKER_00: It can get like that where the job's never done.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And plus,
10:57
SPEAKER_00: like,
10:57
SPEAKER_00: in ministry,
10:58
SPEAKER_00: anybody who's been in ministry part-time or full-time knows even your task list
11:03
SPEAKER_00: just never always gets crossed off.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And as somebody who likes to cross things off a list,
11:08
SPEAKER_00: and I try to cross off a lot every day,
11:10
SPEAKER_00: not getting to the bottom of it,
11:11
SPEAKER_00: it gives you that feeling like,
11:12
SPEAKER_00: oh,
11:13
SPEAKER_00: there's other things.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: So I think, like you said, nebulous.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: That's a really good point because it's not so sharp and pointed.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, if I just knock this one or two things out of the park, and I'll feel a lot better.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like this cloud thing.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's kind of hovering and it's like all these things mixed into one.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: And it's,
11:27
SPEAKER_00: and that's why everybody at some point,
11:29
SPEAKER_00: I think,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: and maybe,
11:31
SPEAKER_00: maybe not everybody at some point just thinks,
11:32
SPEAKER_00: maybe I shouldn't do this.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: I feel like if you haven't had that thought as a pastor, you probably haven't been in pastoral ministry.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: Just give it time.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: I used to joke around and said, I used to, I used to, I used to quit and then rehire myself for
11:51
SPEAKER_00: I used to do that with my lunch.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, I quit, and then I'll rehire myself next minute.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: But I had to quit for a second.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: But I think this is where that old adage,
12:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
12:00
SPEAKER_02: Luther gets credit for it,
12:01
SPEAKER_02: but like,
12:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
12:03
SPEAKER_02: why do we preach the gospel to ourselves every day?
12:06
SPEAKER_02: Well, because we forget it every day.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: And I would probably even shorten that to perhaps maybe even every few hours, every hour.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: You need to be reminded of the gospel.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's
12:21
SPEAKER_02: It's relevant to that because,
12:23
SPEAKER_02: again,
12:24
SPEAKER_02: pastors are often seen,
12:26
SPEAKER_02: preachers are often seen as individuals,
12:30
SPEAKER_02: intellectuals.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: They're gospel professionals, so they've moved on from that.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: But in a sense, that's kind of the point that...
12:41
SPEAKER_02: They haven't,
12:42
SPEAKER_02: and nor will they ever move on,
12:43
SPEAKER_02: nor will anyone else ever move on from that simple message of Christ crucified and
12:49
SPEAKER_02: risen again,
12:50
SPEAKER_02: and just exactly what that means for just daily life.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: You know,
12:57
SPEAKER_02: recently I've been studying Romans chapter 8,
13:02
SPEAKER_02: and I think that that's one of the things that's been coming to the surface,
13:05
SPEAKER_02: which is just the fact that,
13:06
SPEAKER_02: like,
13:07
SPEAKER_02: when he's talking about all of these things that won't separate you from the love
13:12
SPEAKER_02: of Christ,
13:13
SPEAKER_02: the reason why he can say that is like the fulcrum in the middle of that
13:18
SPEAKER_02: conversation is the fact that as he says,
13:21
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:21
SPEAKER_02: who's going to condemn us?
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Christ Jesus has already died and risen again.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: He's ascended and he's in the heavenlies interceding for you.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: And this is why we can know all of those things are true, which is just to say, well,
13:35
SPEAKER_02: it's not a cliche,
13:36
SPEAKER_02: it's not just a reductive thing to say,
13:38
SPEAKER_02: but the gospel is the fulcrum upon which our lives turn.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: And
13:45
SPEAKER_02: When we're up, it's because of the gospel.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: When we're down, we can find encouragement and consolation in the gospel.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: And this is why the good news of Jesus' death and resurrection have to be just at
13:59
SPEAKER_02: the forefront of everything that we do and say.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: It's not just a fad or a gimmick or some sort of...
14:07
SPEAKER_02: just you know thing that we want to say because it's you know in vogue right now
14:11
SPEAKER_02: but the idea of being quote unquote gospel centered is I think not only biblical
14:19
SPEAKER_02: but I think it's
14:21
SPEAKER_02: maybe I should say existential.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Like it's, yes, it informs the way we live.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I used to always like in my one Bible study,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: I would talk a lot about how it's so easy as any Christian,
14:32
SPEAKER_00: any believer to get away from,
14:34
SPEAKER_00: if you get away from daily bread and it's always relating it to,
14:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:36
SPEAKER_00: if you don't,
14:37
SPEAKER_00: If you're not reading your Bible, you're literally not eating your bread.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: It's your spiritual bread.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's such an important thing.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people think things are static, but they're not.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Things are not static at all.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: So some people think, well, I've read the Bible this much, I'm going to hold here.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: And as long as I read this much, I'll stay this close to God.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: And then as I go further, I'll get closer to God.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: But they don't realize that you take a couple days off from the Bible,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: you are already drifting pretty far out into outer space pretty quickly.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: And the longer you go, the further off you get.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: The nice thing is you open that book, and you're right back there, which is the nice thing.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: But I think so often...
15:14
SPEAKER_00: We neglect our Bibles and we neglect prayer because of everything.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: And even I remember noticing that when I first got into ministry,
15:21
SPEAKER_00: I was surprised how hard it was to do my own personal Bible reading and my own
15:25
SPEAKER_00: personal studying because I was prepping for sermons and studies and people had
15:29
SPEAKER_00: questions on their topics that I had to do research and reading with them.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: And I realized how important you have to make sure that you get your own personal time.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: That's not like,
15:37
SPEAKER_00: oh,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: well,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm,
15:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to read Genesis because I have a sermon in this anyway.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: So this is going to be my reading today.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
15:44
SPEAKER_00: well,
15:44
SPEAKER_00: maybe we should even get away and just like personal time because I noticed like it
15:48
SPEAKER_00: can just happen.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: And the nice thing with the pastors,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: they're always in the word of God,
15:51
SPEAKER_00: which I think keeps us very aware of two.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a duality in a way, two sides of a coin.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: You have the one side is, hey, we're really good.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: We got Christ.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like I can do I'm going to be all right, because in the end, I all win.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: And then it's the other side is, man, we live in doom and gloom.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of people again.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's like you're getting and it's like the tension and the Bible's full of tension.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: That's what sanctification is.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: It's the sinner saint tension.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: It's always this conflict that you have to wrestle.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's like to keep that balance.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's really important to always go back to,
16:24
SPEAKER_00: like you're saying,
16:25
SPEAKER_00: the gospel,
16:26
SPEAKER_00: remembering who you are in Christ,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: that no matter what happens here,
16:28
SPEAKER_00: everything's actually a victory.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: It might be bad here for a while, but, you know, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: It didn't mean I can go win every time.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: It just meant I can literally, I think when it says I can do, it literally means I am strong enough.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean, like, I will successfully win.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: It just means I can be strong enough to endure victory.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: all things basically through the victory of christ which is because he's right
16:50
SPEAKER_00: after he's talking about all that contentment yeah it's this whole concept that
16:53
SPEAKER_00: that is what will truly it's a thing that got paul it seems to be the pole saying
16:57
SPEAKER_00: hey this one thing that got me through while i was locked up was just that i have
17:00
SPEAKER_00: christ in me and he gives me peace when i'm in these terrible situations he gives
17:04
SPEAKER_00: me peace and so often i think even as pastors we can get so caught up in everybody
17:09
SPEAKER_00: else's problems that we forget oh wait we got to take care of ourselves spiritually
17:14
SPEAKER_00: And you can get so emptied out and forget to refill.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a really good point.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: And it's a point that I think...
17:23
SPEAKER_02: We might have touched on it before, but I think it's worth reopening it just a little bit.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: It's just the fact that,
17:29
SPEAKER_02: well,
17:29
SPEAKER_02: you mentioned getting in your car,
17:32
SPEAKER_02: listening to music,
17:32
SPEAKER_02: or praying as ways in which you can battle discouragement.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, getting in the Word.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: But I think specifically,
17:38
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
17:39
SPEAKER_02: getting in the Word not for a sermon prep,
17:42
SPEAKER_02: but getting in the Word...
17:44
SPEAKER_02: as your own time of worship and communion with who God is, is so critical.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think, I'll just say, that's something that is difficult to do at times.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: When there's these pressures and timelines and deadlines of things that need to get done,
18:03
SPEAKER_02: it's easy,
18:04
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
18:04
SPEAKER_02: to just...
18:06
SPEAKER_02: confess or admit, oh, I'm already in the Word anyways, this will just be my Bible reading right now.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: And when really you're,
18:14
SPEAKER_02: it's not really feeding you per se as much as it would be if you were just,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm just going to go to this
18:22
SPEAKER_02: place in scripture just because I want to know more about who God is instead of,
18:27
SPEAKER_02: hey,
18:27
SPEAKER_02: I want to preach this.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: There's like a big difference in that sentiment.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: And I would say it's very much similar if you consider the Bible bread.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: It's what's happening.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: It's the difference between like,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: the parent cooking the meal,
18:39
SPEAKER_00: the mother cooking the meal versus the mother sitting down and eating.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: at the table off of a plate when you're the preacher you're not really going at it
18:48
SPEAKER_00: so much as i'm going to eat this bread right now i'm going to digest like what
18:50
SPEAKER_00: we're saying i might digest this because you're really like how am i going to
18:53
SPEAKER_00: prepare to deliver this food how am i going to deliver this bread to people and
18:56
SPEAKER_00: you're thinking about you're almost in the process of cooking and nobody would say
18:59
SPEAKER_00: hey prepping thanksgiving meals just like eating it it's
19:02
SPEAKER_00: That's a really good point.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I would say it's the same thing here.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: And so many times,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: and it's ironic that I even picked this analogy,
19:08
SPEAKER_00: because so many times I can think of my grandmother or my mom or my wife or whatever,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: who's like,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: oh,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: I'll eat later.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Seriously, it's like a real thing by women that are cooking in my family.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I'll eat.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: Nope, I've got to do this.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I'll straighten up.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I'll eat after everything.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, man, that's really what can happen to preachers if we're not careful.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they put that off, and then eventually it kind of...
19:29
SPEAKER_00: That ends up finding them later.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: I think just like it would find them after a while,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: they get hungry,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: like,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: all right,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: I guess I'll sit down and eat.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Same thing,
19:37
SPEAKER_00: like a preacher at some point will go spiritually bankrupt in a way,
19:40
SPEAKER_00: even though they're in the Bible every week.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a good point.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think a helpful thing to know, or at least it helps me, is to remember the idea of...
19:52
SPEAKER_02: combating discouragement,
19:55
SPEAKER_02: either from an outside source or from an internal voice that you just can't seem to
20:00
SPEAKER_02: get out from under,
20:03
SPEAKER_02: is not something that the Bible is unfamiliar with,
20:06
SPEAKER_02: obviously.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: You know,
20:09
SPEAKER_02: the tried and true examples,
20:11
SPEAKER_02: David,
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Elijah,
20:13
SPEAKER_02: there was,
20:14
SPEAKER_02: you mentioned Moses,
20:15
SPEAKER_02: which is a great example.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: This idea of not just...
20:21
SPEAKER_02: individuals,
20:22
SPEAKER_02: but ministry leaders,
20:23
SPEAKER_02: let's keep it focused on that,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: like battling discouragement is something that's clearly within the confines of scripture,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: which is just to say that this is not something that's unheard of.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: This is not something,
20:36
SPEAKER_02: nor we should even say that this is not something that the gospel isn't sufficient for.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: And again, I think it comes back to being free enough, but also confident enough to be able to be like,
20:51
SPEAKER_02: yeah I am this is where I am right now and like that was a I think that's the great
20:55
SPEAKER_02: thing that's often misunderstood about the Elijah story is that he ran away because
21:02
SPEAKER_02: he was discouraged but actually if you look at the text like the angel is feeding
21:08
SPEAKER_02: him on his it's almost as if like the angel of the Lord who is who meets him is
21:13
SPEAKER_02: like hey come with me I gotta show you something so it's not necessarily that he's
21:18
SPEAKER_02: He is running away because of Jezebel,
21:21
SPEAKER_02: but then,
21:21
SPEAKER_02: like,
21:21
SPEAKER_02: the extended version of his journey,
21:24
SPEAKER_00: if you will,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: is kind of God-ordained.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: And,
21:28
SPEAKER_02: of course,
21:28
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:29
SPEAKER_02: depending on where you believe he was and all those sorts of things,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: biblical geography,
21:36
SPEAKER_02: he was likely in the cleft of the rock that Moses was in,
21:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:41
SPEAKER_02: hundreds of years before him,
21:42
SPEAKER_02: which is just so on the nose in terms of,
21:46
SPEAKER_02: like,
21:47
SPEAKER_02: where does God...
21:49
SPEAKER_02: bring his servant in order to give him encouragement.
21:53
SPEAKER_02: He brings him to the place where his glory was revealed, but his character was revealed in the most...
21:59
SPEAKER_02: you know, awesome way at that time, which is, you know, in the Sinai Peninsula.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: Anyways, all of that to say, the Bible has lots of things to encourage discouraged pastors.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, exactly.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's so cool that God leaves these things in there.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: That's what I love about the Bible.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, some people are unfamiliar with the Bible.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a story of heroes.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, sure, these are heroic people.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: We just listed off a bunch of the heroes and their struggles they had and what we're talking about here.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: That's what we consider mental health from a spiritual leader.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Abort is basically what it ends up being just due to the life you have to live and
22:38
SPEAKER_00: what your responsibilities become.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: But I think that there's a reason that even Joshua...
22:44
SPEAKER_00: He had taken over after Moses.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: So he saw all that stuff, and he was actually pretty courageous.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Remember, he's like the one of the two spies that came.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, no, we can do it.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: God will be here with us.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: And yet still, you know, God says, like, be strong and be courageous.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Do not be frightened.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Do not fear, for I, Lord, have got him with you.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting that even...
23:01
SPEAKER_00: And,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: of course,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: that's a repeated phrase throughout,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: basically,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: the book of Joshua and over and over until Joshua can tell his people that.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: But it's so interesting to see, like... It's another lesson to me.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well...
23:12
SPEAKER_00: joshua went through the red sea and he believed joshua saw a spine he believed but
23:16
SPEAKER_00: then before jericho the lord still had to come and encourage him why because like
23:20
SPEAKER_00: just like you said we need it every hour every minute we need to remember god's
23:23
SPEAKER_00: with us here we can do this god is with us it's not as scary as it seems we're not
23:27
SPEAKER_00: alone like we feel like we are and i know we feel like nobody knows what's really
23:30
SPEAKER_00: going on in our mind in our hearts actually i do i'm god you know god knows and
23:34
SPEAKER_00: it's really interesting that's why i love that part where joshua is like basically
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And you see this over and over, this message there.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Do not be afraid.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Be encouraged.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: The Lord's God is with you.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because he needed it.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Just like I think every spiritual leader,
23:47
SPEAKER_00: it would benefit every preacher to probably walk into their office and think of
23:51
SPEAKER_00: something of that sort.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, don't forget.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Today, I don't know what it's going to have, but today, God's with me.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I know I've seen a lot.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: I've seen you carry me through a lot of times.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: I saw you carry us through the Red Sea.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Just like Joshua, I've seen you carry me through.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And we can think of all the times that we've felt like this in the past.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: Because usually these feelings, as you know, are not new feelings of despair.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: you know grief and stuff that we can't pinpoint it's happened before it's almost
24:12
SPEAKER_00: like the stock market or a roller coaster it goes up and then we're really good and
24:14
SPEAKER_00: then and then like we all make the mistake at least i do i don't know if everybody
24:17
SPEAKER_00: does make the mistake of like oh wow that was cool i conquered all that stuff and
24:21
SPEAKER_00: then like you know next and sometimes like the next day it's like why do i feel
24:24
SPEAKER_00: like this so it's like almost i'm wise enough now to know like well i'm glad it's a
24:28
SPEAKER_00: good day thank you lord it's a good one i'm feeling great thank you jesus for as
24:32
SPEAKER_00: long as this lasts as long as you're willing for this to last
24:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's something important.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's why the Bible includes these negative things about how Elijah wanted to die.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: And how Moses says, why do I have to be in charge?
24:44
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even ask for this.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: I really believe God put those in there for Eden.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: He could have eliminated a lot of other things from the story.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of things Jesus did he didn't record in there.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: But he records these things for our benefit, I think.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: For everybody in different circumstances and definitely for preachers, I would say.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: And
25:01
SPEAKER_02: I think that's just a really good reminder because,
25:05
SPEAKER_02: again,
25:05
SPEAKER_02: if we're understanding that the Bible is the revelation of God's heart,
25:11
SPEAKER_02: the inclusion of these stories lets us know that he has a heart for those who are
25:17
SPEAKER_02: caring for and leading his church and for their spiritual health,
25:22
SPEAKER_02: even as they are being put into positions where they are caring for the spiritual
25:27
SPEAKER_02: health of others.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: That's sort of like this...
25:30
SPEAKER_02: This amazing realization is that for whatever reason,
25:36
SPEAKER_02: God has called certain individuals to be the leaders of of his body,
25:43
SPEAKER_02: the body of Christ.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: And again, it's not because they've, you know.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: figured something out.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: They haven't had some sort of like Gnostic experience to where like now they're like,
25:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
25:53
SPEAKER_02: the guru that's on the mountaintop giving you all kinds of life advice.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
25:58
SPEAKER_02: it's really a lot simpler and maybe even less spectacular,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: which is just the fact that God's Holy Spirit has called certain individuals to
26:07
SPEAKER_02: preach his word and he's gifted them with a specific skill set to,
26:12
SPEAKER_02: in order to do that.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that isn't, you know,
26:16
SPEAKER_02: some sort of magical thing.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: It's really just God and his wisdom calling people that maybe didn't even want that.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: And like you said, Moses, but like, and people that probably never even imagined that that would be them.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's what he delights in doing is like,
26:35
SPEAKER_02: Hey,
26:36
SPEAKER_02: you don't think you're going to be good for this?
26:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
26:38
SPEAKER_02: And at least, you know, a really good example of course is,
26:42
SPEAKER_02: at least the first half of his life, is Gideon.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: He didn't really want to do what he was called to do, and yet God was like, no, you're going to do it.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: You're going to do it, right.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: I'll send you all these reasons why.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Are you sure about this fleece?
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Just verify it.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: Do the opposite.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Now reverse it.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I think even every once in a while a preacher probably asks themselves,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: God,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: can you get me out of here?
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, let's give me another sign if you really want me to stay.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, maybe I fulfilled my office duties, and now I'm moving and passing the torch to somebody.
27:13
SPEAKER_00: So where's my torch, Pat?
27:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: It can happen to all of us, but you made some really good points there.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's just really interesting how God has...
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Because I think the difference is people think that preachers...
27:26
SPEAKER_00: And this is maybe another one of the difficulties in preachers is like...
27:29
SPEAKER_00: you want your people to know that you're not perfect.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: And they're supposed to know this also.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: But then also,
27:36
SPEAKER_00: there's also this thing as a leader,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: you don't want to show that you're,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: you don't want them to portray that you're this complete weakling up there that has
27:42
SPEAKER_00: nothing together and you're so emotionally unstable.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Because you don't, you have to keep this balance.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like being a parent.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Like,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:49
SPEAKER_00: what do mom and dad say when they're about,
27:51
SPEAKER_00: when the house could be foreclosed if dad doesn't get his job?
27:53
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
27:54
SPEAKER_00: It's like, they don't tell the kids and they keep it pretty good.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
27:57
SPEAKER_00: It's these things because they can't say these things.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: That's why, like,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: I think pastors have to be there for each other.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: But I think what happens is they look at pastors and say,
28:06
SPEAKER_00: oh,
28:06
SPEAKER_00: their job is interpreting the scripture so they know this so they can just live it out.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: But we also know it's very different.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: If we could just live out everything we knew, we would all be glorified saints.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: And we're not.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
28:17
SPEAKER_00: We're not.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: The reason we're being sanctified is because I knew what I should have done, and I didn't do it.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: That's what that means.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: So that means every preacher,
28:24
SPEAKER_00: unless they're glorified,
28:25
SPEAKER_00: which means they're not,
28:26
SPEAKER_00: because the Bible says you can't be glorified until Christ comes back and gives us
28:29
SPEAKER_00: new bodies.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: And you just have to understand that the preachers are going through the same, even though they know.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: And obviously they don't know all the Bible.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: The Bible is a massive treasure chest that nobody can get to the bottom.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing people don't understand.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: You can't know everything in every way God put it as a human being.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: You just can't process it all.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: But then to know what you know, I always love that one thing.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like the difference between knowing and doing.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to know it, another thing to do it.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: That's why I love the Shema.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: It says, But Shema doesn't mean just listen.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a difference like when I ask my son, Hey, I want you to go take this to the room.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to just listen and hear my word.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to listen and do.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: That's what Shema, it's all about the Shema.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: It's like, listen and do this.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: It's not, Hey, listen to my words I'm going to tell you.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: Listen and do this.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: And so often, even ourselves as preachers sometimes, it can happen where we listen and we can't do it.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: It reminds me of what Paul says in Romans 7,
29:25
SPEAKER_02: where he's like,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: I know the things I should be doing,
29:28
SPEAKER_02: and I'm not doing those things.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's not because of lack of maybe want to.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: It's that old nasty flesh is getting in the way.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's one of the things that is...
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Most profound,
29:44
SPEAKER_02: at least for me,
29:45
SPEAKER_02: is just the idea of pastoral discouragement is kind of like this ever-present thing.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's louder and sometimes it's quieter.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: But the same resolution to which Paul comes and arrives at at the end of Romans 7...
30:03
SPEAKER_02: is kind of like the point we're making, which is, who's going to save me from this body of death?
30:07
SPEAKER_02: Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: Which is kind of like what he's talking about with this constant battle with sin
30:16
SPEAKER_02: that he has,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:17
SPEAKER_02: in Romans 7 where he's talking about all of that.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: And the same sort of thing is this constant discouragement that we might feel
30:25
SPEAKER_02: either from outside or inside sources,
30:27
SPEAKER_02: right?
30:28
SPEAKER_02: it comes back to the fact that the only deliverer that we have from that season of
30:34
SPEAKER_02: life or from those senses or those feelings
30:39
SPEAKER_02: is Christ Jesus, which again brings us back to the gospel.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: It brings us back right there.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think if anything else,
30:46
SPEAKER_00: like maybe the reason,
30:48
SPEAKER_00: and I'm never going to get in God's head,
30:49
SPEAKER_00: so don't get me wrong,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: but maybe that reason even the Lord allows preachers to have this unique feeling
30:55
SPEAKER_00: that we can't explain to people is almost maybe to even be better like Christian
30:59
SPEAKER_00: counselors for people.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Because the best thing about Christ,
31:02
SPEAKER_00: the reason we can take Christ so seriously,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: well,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: for many reasons,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: well,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: he's God,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: but he's been tempted.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: He went through everything we went through.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: So we can't be like, Jesus, you have no idea how this feels.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: No, he literally lived it.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: So we could.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to go to a pastor.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: You and I know this.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: It would be really hard to go to a pastor and say, hey, you have no idea how I feel.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm alone in my thoughts, and I don't think anybody's going to understand.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: You can say, no, I know.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: I know what that's like.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: I know what that's like.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know your exact situation, what you're doing, but that's me.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: That's me.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's like one of these things like...
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I always notice like it's,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: and it's,
31:33
SPEAKER_00: it used to happen when I was younger,
31:34
SPEAKER_00: when I was growing in my faith,
31:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:36
SPEAKER_00: when you're younger and maybe in your teens,
31:37
SPEAKER_00: if you're like,
31:38
SPEAKER_00: I went to church my whole life.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: So in my teens,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm starting to think like,
31:40
SPEAKER_00: I can't people,
31:41
SPEAKER_00: I can't believe people do that sin,
31:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:43
SPEAKER_00: kind of do it.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: And then like shortly later, I have these urges to do those sins.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
31:47
SPEAKER_00: God's like,
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: remember,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: don't,
31:49
SPEAKER_00: don't get ahead of yourself here just because you're not sitting in this one way.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: You are a human too.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: And then,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: so then it goes to these things that,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: and not only like sinning,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: but also suffering or things that you're going through tragedy or whatever,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: like,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: When I see, you know, my dad died.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: When I see somebody have a parent die in some horrific accident or some kind of situation,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: there is almost like this connection I can feel with them.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I can connect with that person more deeply just because I've been
32:13
SPEAKER_00: through a similar situation.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, although we probably don't like to admit it, God would have us go through things.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: At times, not always, you know, because these can, for all kinds of reasons.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's just another way of how we could totally relate now to
32:25
SPEAKER_00: in a way that maybe the congregation doesn't realize that we are much more like them.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: They are far from us.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Like it's, we're actually more alike than different.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: I think that,
32:34
SPEAKER_02: that to me is,
32:35
SPEAKER_02: and this ties into actually one of the topics that I was going to address,
32:40
SPEAKER_02: but this brings us into that segues us nicely into that,
32:44
SPEAKER_02: which is just the idea of thinking through the concept of what is the purpose of
32:51
SPEAKER_02: of preaching at all.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: We've talked a little bit about it in some other places,
32:56
SPEAKER_02: but for whatever reason,
32:57
SPEAKER_02: I was drawn to Ephesians 4.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: In Ephesians 4.12, Paul is listing these offices, apostles, prophets, evangelists, blah, blah, blah.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: Then he says in verse 12,
33:10
SPEAKER_02: the reason for this is,
33:11
SPEAKER_02: quote,
33:12
SPEAKER_02: "...to equip the saints for the work of the ministry,
33:15
SPEAKER_02: for building up the body of Christ,
33:18
SPEAKER_02: until we all attain to the unity of faith."
33:21
SPEAKER_02: Rather speaking the truth in love, and he goes on.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: But my point is this.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: When he's talking about these offices,
33:46
SPEAKER_02: these ministerial offices even,
33:48
SPEAKER_02: we'll call them,
33:50
SPEAKER_02: and he says that the reason they exist is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: I got to thinking, what is the best way we could equip the body?
34:04
SPEAKER_02: So that word equip means preparation,
34:06
SPEAKER_02: which is just to say,
34:07
SPEAKER_02: how can we prepare them for the Christian life?
34:12
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: And this kind of brings me back to the point of,
34:15
SPEAKER_02: like,
34:16
SPEAKER_02: what does the body of Christ most need from my sermon or from a sermon?
34:24
SPEAKER_02: Which, again, gets to your point of vulnerability.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: Of course, they need Christ, but they also need, I think, to be able to see that...
34:35
SPEAKER_02: their experiences with frustration and struggling are not out of the norm,
34:43
SPEAKER_02: which touches on that note of vulnerability,
34:46
SPEAKER_02: and obviously we can go too far with that.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: But I think,
34:50
SPEAKER_02: by and large,
34:52
SPEAKER_02: in order to equip the saints for the work of the ministry,
34:55
SPEAKER_02: they need to know that,
34:57
SPEAKER_02: number one,
34:57
SPEAKER_02: the ministry is hard.
34:58
SPEAKER_02: There's going to be really difficult seasons.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: All I'm trying to say is,
35:04
SPEAKER_02: As pastors and preachers,
35:05
SPEAKER_02: we don't need to try to hide our discouragement as if that's going to diminish what
35:13
SPEAKER_02: the church needs.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
35:15
SPEAKER_02: in order to equip them,
35:17
SPEAKER_02: and I would even say to build them up,
35:19
SPEAKER_02: I think there actually needs to be more of that rhetoric.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: hey,
35:25
SPEAKER_02: this is what I've experienced in my own walk with the Lord,
35:29
SPEAKER_02: and here's the way in which the Lord has seen me through.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Which, in a way, I think that's exactly what Paul does in many, many cases.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
35:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a way to see it almost in a way as a mentorship.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: You don't find a mentor who has no experience going into it.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
35:48
SPEAKER_00: hey,
35:48
SPEAKER_00: I've got to go find,
35:49
SPEAKER_00: if I want to be a martial artist,
35:50
SPEAKER_00: I've got to go find the top martial artist.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that we're the top Christians or anything like that.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: What the preachers try to do is convey a message to the people,
36:00
SPEAKER_00: preach the good news,
36:01
SPEAKER_00: the gospel of Christ,
36:02
SPEAKER_00: and then how to live that out,
36:04
SPEAKER_00: equipping them for the work of the ministry,
36:06
SPEAKER_00: the building up of the body of Christ.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: So it definitely has that whole, that mentorship part.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, you know, I struggle.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: You struggle.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Look at the scripture.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: They struggle.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And then,
36:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:20
SPEAKER_00: to equip them,
36:21
SPEAKER_00: to prepare them,
36:22
SPEAKER_00: I think speaks to me as what will they do when the pastor's not around to talk to?
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the big one because I have to talk to my pastor.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: I have to talk to him.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: What can you do?
36:29
SPEAKER_00: I think if we equip them.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: Probably that prevents these things and allows them to be the body of Christ and
36:37
SPEAKER_00: not just have the pastor doing all of the teaching,
36:39
SPEAKER_00: all of the helping out,
36:40
SPEAKER_00: all of the counseling,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: all of the life events.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: Because if it's a really healthy body, and sometimes it's not the preacher's fault by any means.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: It also has a lot to do with reciprocation of the maturity of the congregation.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: who is receiving and how truly they are because you know you can give the best
36:54
SPEAKER_00: message on and craft these things that can build community and allow people to
36:58
SPEAKER_00: speak the gospel to others lives and to be there for each other in a Christian way
37:02
SPEAKER_00: and if it's not going to be received it's just not going to happen but I think
37:06
SPEAKER_00: that's what it's all for is to design them to see in the in the gospel to be able
37:10
SPEAKER_00: to walk through with somebody else and say hey let's go through scripture without
37:13
SPEAKER_00: the pastor be able to look at this hey what are you going through here I remember
37:16
SPEAKER_00: this one passage and you look at it and how did you know how did Paul handle this
37:20
SPEAKER_00: oh
37:20
SPEAKER_00: he got peace from Christ.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: This must be the answer.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: And,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: and as a pastor and you're raising up and you're preaching is all about,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: they're cause they're really getting their,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: um,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: and that basically their hermeneutics essentially from you.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: And when you're showing them how to approach this over time, you're really equipping them.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Cause every time you're taking them all through the past that they're reading with
37:39
SPEAKER_00: you and you're showing them how to sift through it.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: And the best part is now you get down to who's a good preacher or not,
37:43
SPEAKER_00: because are you making it about you?
37:45
SPEAKER_00: And cause, cause there is something like, that's what we're trying to get.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: There are actual life applications, but,
37:50
SPEAKER_00: I always,
37:50
SPEAKER_00: in my sermons,
37:51
SPEAKER_00: I'd always see there's a little historical narrative,
37:53
SPEAKER_00: then there's a spiritual application,
37:54
SPEAKER_00: because you can go all different ways if you really wanted to,
37:57
SPEAKER_00: and there are these things,
37:57
SPEAKER_00: but,
37:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: preaching like,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: hey,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: let's first find Christ in this,
38:01
SPEAKER_00: let's find the gospel of Christ,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: and now let's find how we,
38:04
SPEAKER_00: and kind of walking them through it so they don't turn into,
38:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm David, and that's Goliath, except when Bathsheba, now I'm Nathan.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: I've switched roles miraculously,
38:15
SPEAKER_00: and now I switch characters because as a good preacher,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: you've taught them,
38:21
SPEAKER_00: no,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: we take our lumps and bumps on the chin because that's what happens to us,
38:26
SPEAKER_00: and we are those...
38:27
SPEAKER_00: more than the heroes, actually.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: It's almost reverse.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: I think this also gets to...
38:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to turn this into some sort of philosophical discussion,
38:37
SPEAKER_02: but there's different philosophies of leadership and are you a leader from the top
38:44
SPEAKER_02: down and blah,
38:44
SPEAKER_02: blah,
38:44
SPEAKER_02: blah,
38:45
SPEAKER_02: those types of things.
38:46
SPEAKER_02: And I think we have that sensibility when it comes to pastoral ministry that it
38:52
SPEAKER_02: kind of goes back again to the idea of...
38:57
SPEAKER_02: preachers being put on pedestals that they've figured out some sort of thing.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: And,
39:02
SPEAKER_02: and so therefore they can't be,
39:04
SPEAKER_02: or they're not allowed to be vulnerable with their weaknesses because again,
39:08
SPEAKER_02: that would diminish,
39:09
SPEAKER_02: that would be a blemish on their reputation,
39:14
SPEAKER_02: but also their credibility.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: And in some cases maybe, but I would also say that what I think is being conveyed is,
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Actually,
39:24
SPEAKER_02: what I'm sure is being conveyed by what Paul talks about throughout his New
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Testament epistles,
39:29
SPEAKER_02: but I would even say the bulk of Scripture,
39:32
SPEAKER_02: is that those who lead the body of Christ,
39:35
SPEAKER_02: they don't lead from the top down.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: They lead in the trenches.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: It's like – so being a pastor is not like being a general who's like away from –
39:47
SPEAKER_02: it's like those war scenes in movies where like the generals are way far away and
39:53
SPEAKER_02: they're like pushing little like figurines around.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: Hey, go here.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Go here.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Do that.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: They're like looking at everything from the top down.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: No, actually, it's more like World War I trench warfare.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: And they're right there right next to you in the midst of the bombs going off and
40:11
SPEAKER_02: the chaos and the tragedy and all of the hardships that everyone else faces.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: That's a pastor.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: He's right there with you.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: Or at least that should be the sensibility that fills a pastor.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: But then also their experiences as they commune with the Lord, pray, study, all those things...
40:31
SPEAKER_02: The ministry that most equips and builds up the body of Christ is kind of,
40:37
SPEAKER_02: as we've talked about before,
40:38
SPEAKER_02: comes out of the overflow of his ministry.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: with the Lord himself more than anything else.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that, again, I think that's what builds up the body.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: That's what actually strengthens the body,
40:55
SPEAKER_02: not any some sort of other wisdom from any other source or originating from any
41:01
SPEAKER_00: other thing.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
41:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: And I really like what you said there about how being in the trenches,
41:07
SPEAKER_00: because so many people,
41:08
SPEAKER_00: and it's not the same in every church you go to.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: There are really good pastors in the trenches.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: and they're really good pastors, you know, in their ivory towers.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
41:16
SPEAKER_00: Saying,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: talking from afar,
41:18
SPEAKER_00: and maybe even hiding their,
41:20
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:20
SPEAKER_00: their tendency to sin,
41:22
SPEAKER_00: and it becomes,
41:23
SPEAKER_00: but being in the trenches is so much different,
41:25
SPEAKER_00: because a general,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: you think of,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Washington,
41:27
SPEAKER_00: who rode through,
41:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:28
SPEAKER_00: the river with the people,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: something like that,
41:30
SPEAKER_00: those people respect a general that's,
41:32
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:32
SPEAKER_00: right next to them,
41:32
SPEAKER_00: versus,
41:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:33
SPEAKER_00: some army commander,
41:34
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:34
SPEAKER_00: what is he saying?
41:35
SPEAKER_00: You know,
41:35
SPEAKER_00: it's like the whole corporate model,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: even,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: concept,
41:38
SPEAKER_00: and I love going back,
41:39
SPEAKER_00: I heard this years ago,
41:40
SPEAKER_00: and it's always,
41:41
SPEAKER_00: like,
41:41
SPEAKER_00: stuck with me,
41:42
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
41:43
SPEAKER_00: what is a pastor really?
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, if you break the term down, pastor just goes back into elder, like shepherd, right?
41:48
SPEAKER_00: Shepherd.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like, all right, what makes a good shepherd?
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, not a shepherd that stands three fields away and says, Hey, stay in the corner.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: No,
41:56
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
41:56
SPEAKER_00: No, it's a shepherd that's with the sheep.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: So they always say a good pastor has said something like, do you smell like your sheep?
42:04
SPEAKER_00: If you don't smell like sheep, you're probably not a good pastor.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
42:07
SPEAKER_00: ah,
42:07
SPEAKER_00: man,
42:08
SPEAKER_00: that's heavy words,
42:08
SPEAKER_00: but it's actually kind of true because what shepherd,
42:11
SPEAKER_00: if we're literally using the shepherds and the congregation of the people that
42:13
SPEAKER_00: we're caring for,
42:15
SPEAKER_00: are the flock, right?
42:17
SPEAKER_00: And this is a thing that God gave us to understand this kind of connection here.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Every good shepherd I know smells like a sheep when he leaves the field.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: He would smell like that because he was among them at all times, guarding.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's what a preacher is also trying to do.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And he alludes at that here when he talks about every wind of doctrine.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Because you're not only preparing them,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: but you're also showing them what the Word of God really,
42:40
SPEAKER_00: truly,
42:41
SPEAKER_00: definitely says.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: And don't let anybody else come and lie to you like a wolf.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Keep the wolves out.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: That's why we have our staffs there.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Keep the wolves out.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: And it's really tough being a pastor.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: Because it's almost like being a shepherd in an open field, allowing wolves in and out.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times I think what can happen,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: and it's not probably talked enough about,
43:01
SPEAKER_00: is how,
43:03
SPEAKER_00: and maybe bigger,
43:04
SPEAKER_00: more than smaller churches,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: but I don't even know,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: because it's in the Bible,
43:07
SPEAKER_00: so there must be this somehow lived out.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: But because the church is open,
43:11
SPEAKER_00: and just because everybody smiles and stuff,
43:13
SPEAKER_00: does not mean there's not wolves.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: And they're leading people astray.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's exactly what Satan would want to do in the Bible.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Paul even talks about this.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: And John, I think John talks about this.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: When you get to his letters, he's really hammered on.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: Hey, these people just want to be all about you got leaders and stuff and you got other people.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that will slip in.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: They'll slip in and pretend to be like you.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's like.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: Man, how exhausting is it to be the shepherd of the church?
43:36
SPEAKER_00: That's why you have to take it true.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: You can't just be like, I want to be a pastor because I want to talk about the Bible all day.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: This is great.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, you've got to be ready to help Sally when she's in tears.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: You've got to help this person when their parent died.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: You've got to help this person who's going through depression.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: And you've also got to keep these wolves out who are teaching people the wrong
43:49
SPEAKER_00: doctrine and getting people focused on things that aren't Christ in here.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I really believe that the Bible talks about a plurality of elders.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't matter about how many bodies there are.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: It means how many bodies are actively shepherding.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're the only shepherd and there's 100 or 150 sheep and three wolves
44:07
SPEAKER_00: come in,
44:07
SPEAKER_00: you are outnumbered.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Unless you have good other shepherds in that field with you,
44:11
SPEAKER_00: which any shepherd would say,
44:12
SPEAKER_00: hey,
44:12
SPEAKER_00: I need backup.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why it's important,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: the plurality of elders,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: actually not just being teachers,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: but actually among the sheep living it out.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think...
44:21
SPEAKER_02: to carry that point even more forward is just,
44:24
SPEAKER_02: or to even kind of close it off with just the fact that,
44:28
SPEAKER_02: like,
44:29
SPEAKER_02: that's what makes the analogy of ministry as trench warfare so on the nose,
44:34
SPEAKER_02: which is just the fact that in the trenches with someone else,
44:38
SPEAKER_02: besides someone else,
44:40
SPEAKER_02: is...
44:41
SPEAKER_02: It allows for a lot more encouragement.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: There's that sense of leaning on each other,
44:49
SPEAKER_02: that sense of being in the trenches with another person who's also experiencing the
44:55
SPEAKER_02: same things you are.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: That is definitely backing up what you're saying about plurality of elders and especially how...
45:03
SPEAKER_02: I think God clearly designed his church to operate.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: But again,
45:08
SPEAKER_02: it comes back to the certainty of what we can know is then being poured out by what
45:18
SPEAKER_02: we proclaim.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: And again, I think that's what is being given to the church whenever the church gathers and assembles.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: It's
45:30
SPEAKER_02: One of the sheep who's been chosen to lead the sheep is telling them about the
45:39
SPEAKER_02: words that they can know for certain are true.
45:43
SPEAKER_02: Not based on like...
45:46
SPEAKER_02: some sort of experience, not based on some sort of extra knowledge, but based on the Word of God.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: And this,
45:54
SPEAKER_02: again,
45:54
SPEAKER_02: is an allusion to many of the things that we've talked about before,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:01
SPEAKER_02: the primacy of the Word,
46:03
SPEAKER_02: the focus of it being Christ,
46:05
SPEAKER_02: and how all of the authority of ministry is downstream of the authority of Christ.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: It all kind of is, these are all like just little facets of the same conversation.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: But mostly, I'm just drawn to the fact that what does the church most need to hear?
46:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, they don't need to hear that a pastor has everything put together and hears his wisdom.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I think they need to hear...
46:33
SPEAKER_02: hey,
46:34
SPEAKER_02: I don't always have everything together and here's my struggles and here's the way
46:38
SPEAKER_02: in which,
46:39
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:40
SPEAKER_02: those struggles can be met by a word that's greater.
46:44
SPEAKER_02: You know,
46:44
SPEAKER_02: a word that actually offers life,
46:47
SPEAKER_02: that offers,
46:48
SPEAKER_02: as you mentioned earlier,
46:50
SPEAKER_02: peace that passes all understanding.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: And
46:55
SPEAKER_02: That's what helps other Christians in the trenches as well.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: Because their quote-unquote trench experience may be different than ours,
47:03
SPEAKER_02: but the same message of grace can minister to them in ways that are just beyond our comprehension.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: Amen, amen.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: and I see that,
47:14
SPEAKER_00: like what you said,
47:15
SPEAKER_00: is like really these are all,
47:16
SPEAKER_00: they seem like all conversations are,
47:18
SPEAKER_00: The same conversation in a bunch of different ways because it's really the source
47:21
SPEAKER_00: of Christ and he flows out in all these different ways or whatever.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: But I really do think it comes down to what you were saying is letting the people know.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like you said, they don't need to see somebody who's perfect, who has it all together.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: They need to see somebody who's in the trenches with them.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, one of the sheep has just happened to be chosen.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: And what's really important is what you're hitting at here is
47:44
SPEAKER_00: to make sure that they know about Christ,
47:46
SPEAKER_00: what it says about Christ,
47:47
SPEAKER_00: that he was God,
47:48
SPEAKER_00: that he was born a virgin,
47:49
SPEAKER_00: that he died,
47:49
SPEAKER_00: he rose again,
47:50
SPEAKER_00: and you have eternal hope because of that.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: And it's a permanent fix,
47:53
SPEAKER_00: which is nice,
47:54
SPEAKER_00: because even the best pastors who want to be,
47:56
SPEAKER_00: who knows if Christ takes us at any time,
47:59
SPEAKER_00: and,
47:59
SPEAKER_00: oh no,
47:59
SPEAKER_00: that happens at church all the time,
48:00
SPEAKER_00: or the pastor retires,
48:02
SPEAKER_00: or a sudden death or something like that.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, now what do you do?
48:05
SPEAKER_00: You need a permanent solution, and Christ is the only permanent solution that will outlive all of us.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: It will outlive...
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Anybody, it's the only one that Christ is always there.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's another good reason to point them away from ourselves even.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: and right to Christ,
48:19
SPEAKER_00: because so many people are naturally going to gravitate to,
48:22
SPEAKER_00: I want to talk,
48:22
SPEAKER_00: and how does the pastor do this,
48:24
SPEAKER_00: and how would he do this,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: and say,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: hey,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: listen,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't always even,
48:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm not always even going to get it right,
48:29
SPEAKER_00: and what you really need to do is see what Christ did,
48:31
SPEAKER_00: and let's look at the scriptures together,
48:33
SPEAKER_00: because I try to do it this way,
48:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't always do it,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: so let's actually look how Christ always did it,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: and how Paul,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: how it was illustrated,
48:38
SPEAKER_00: how Paul got through this,
48:39
SPEAKER_00: again,
48:39
SPEAKER_00: with,
48:39
SPEAKER_00: with Christ,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: you're not going to ask,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: hey,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: how Paul got through this,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: well,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: it's going to be the same answer I just gave you,
48:43
SPEAKER_00: he's going to tell you in another way with different words maybe to help get
48:46
SPEAKER_00: through a little bit differently but that's the point is giving that permanent
48:50
SPEAKER_02: source of Christ I think is the point yeah I forget where I saw this so I'm
48:55
SPEAKER_02: probably going to steal it from someone but it was something to me the effect of
48:59
SPEAKER_02: like
49:00
SPEAKER_02: This person is having a conversation with their pastor,
49:03
SPEAKER_02: and they're like,
49:03
SPEAKER_02: oh,
49:03
SPEAKER_02: you're the one with all the answers.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: And the pastor's like, no, I'm the one who points you to the one who does.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the best encapsulation,
49:15
SPEAKER_02: or maybe not the best,
49:16
SPEAKER_02: but I think one of the clearest encapsulations of what we've been talking about
49:19
SPEAKER_02: through these conversations,
49:20
SPEAKER_02: which is...
49:25
SPEAKER_02: The pastor is not really a person to whom we can look to for...
49:32
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's just say it this way.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: The pastor is not the point.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: He's the one who points you to the point.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: He's the pointer.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: He's the one who's redirecting your gaze, so to speak.
49:46
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like people in the trenches are just looking down at the trenches.
49:53
SPEAKER_02: They're looking at all of the things that are wrong.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: And like the pastor is not the point.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: He's not going to like grab the person by the face and, hey, look at me.
50:02
SPEAKER_02: Actually, he will grab the person by the face and turn their eyes upwards so to speak.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: He'll like, hey, no, look, look over here.
50:08
SPEAKER_02: Look at where, look at what is true.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: Look at what is certain.
50:12
SPEAKER_02: Look at where your help comes from.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: Look at where and what God has already done.
50:21
SPEAKER_02: as you said, made permanent in and because of Christ.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: That's sort of what a pastor is doing.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: He's almost like grabbing the face of people who are suffering and like pointing
50:32
SPEAKER_02: them to what is solid,
50:34
SPEAKER_02: pointing them to what is true.
50:37
SPEAKER_02: And again, this is what he does through the ministry of the word.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: And again, this is
50:42
SPEAKER_02: what he does by pointing people to Christ and by submitting himself to the
50:49
SPEAKER_02: authority of the road because it's not about him,
50:51
SPEAKER_02: it's not about his eloquence,
50:52
SPEAKER_02: wisdom,
50:53
SPEAKER_02: wit,
50:53
SPEAKER_02: all those things.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: It's all about Jesus.
50:55
SPEAKER_02: And again, that's not a cliche, that's not a gimmick, it's not a fad.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: Even here,
51:02
SPEAKER_02: As Paul is talking about in Ephesians 4, he says in verse 15, we're speaking the truth in love.
51:09
SPEAKER_02: We are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: This is the whole objective of this whole thing Paul is saying.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: It's into Christ, the fullness of Christ.
51:20
SPEAKER_02: It's all about the body of Christ being formed into the fullness of the image of Christ.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: And that happens through the word of Christ being preached by Christ's messengers.
51:34
SPEAKER_02: And this again speaks to what we've been kind of teasing out,
51:39
SPEAKER_02: which is just the fact that the office of preacher is one that is ordained by God,
51:49
SPEAKER_02: yes,
51:51
SPEAKER_02: but it's also one that is not impervious to God.
51:57
SPEAKER_02: everyday frustrations and we can be okay with that.
52:02
SPEAKER_02: We should be okay with that.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: And you almost have to accept that fact because, you know, anybody, any good preacher knows the Bible.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: That's just how it is.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: Like we can't, we can't escape this by any means.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: And even probably what he's getting at here is like just growing more in your
52:15
SPEAKER_00: sanctification and growing more in your sanctification and
52:18
SPEAKER_00: I've come to learn doesn't always mean sinning less, which obviously it does.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: It does mean sinning less,
52:23
SPEAKER_00: but it also means on the other side,
52:25
SPEAKER_00: which is another version of sinning less,
52:27
SPEAKER_00: is like showing grace and humility.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: And we don't always think about that eliminating our sin, but it actually does.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: Humility is the opposite of pride.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: And so there has to be some kind of humility that comes into this.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why when you see pastors who hide this,
52:40
SPEAKER_00: it's another form of pride because they don't want people to know and they want to
52:45
SPEAKER_00: maybe even
52:46
SPEAKER_00: And maybe not even because they want to be this hero,
52:48
SPEAKER_00: but because everybody's made them the hero,
52:50
SPEAKER_00: and none of us like to let people down,
52:52
SPEAKER_00: no matter how much.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you'd say, hey, I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't know the whole Bible.
52:58
SPEAKER_00: I know a good bit, but I don't know everything, and I don't have all your answers.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: But like you said, Jesus does.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just...
53:03
SPEAKER_00: It's really important that even,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: like I said,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: just to continue to grow and to help other people as well grow.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: When a pastor's up here being full of humility and stuff,
53:11
SPEAKER_00: it encourages that spiritual,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: mature Christian who's out there talking to people now when the pastor's not around,
53:16
SPEAKER_00: out in their communities,
53:17
SPEAKER_00: to say,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: hey,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: I struggle too,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: not wave your finger and say,
53:21
SPEAKER_00: you've got to sin less,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: you've got to do this,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: almost the humility,
53:24
SPEAKER_00: I've been there when I'm struggling for it,
53:25
SPEAKER_00: let's help find you through this by seeing what Christ says about it.
53:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
53:29
SPEAKER_02: and I think what you said is really good,
53:31
SPEAKER_02: which is the fact that,
53:32
SPEAKER_02: like,
53:33
SPEAKER_02: sanctification always doesn't mean sinning less,
53:37
SPEAKER_02: necessarily.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: I think it's more of a becoming aware of your propensity for sin and your need for grace.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: I think...
53:47
SPEAKER_02: I think it was Steve Brown, so he's the Key Life radio host.
53:51
SPEAKER_02: I think he once said in a talk that I heard him give,
53:53
SPEAKER_02: which is the fact that like,
53:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
53:55
SPEAKER_02: he was talking about sanctification.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: He said something to the effect that like, you know, it's not that I...
54:00
SPEAKER_02: I sin less, it's just that I'm old and I'm tired.
54:03
SPEAKER_02: That's good.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: It's like he doesn't have the energy to pursue those things that he used to pursue.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: There's probably some truth to that.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot easier to get in the sin as a teenager.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: I will definitely do that.
54:15
SPEAKER_02: But I think being aware of that is just the fact that like...
54:20
SPEAKER_02: That nature never really goes away.
54:22
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of like the point of being a pastor is to be like, hey, here's sin nature.
54:29
SPEAKER_02: And,
54:30
SPEAKER_02: you know,
54:30
SPEAKER_02: really to bring this conversation to a full circle is the whole point of this is
54:36
SPEAKER_02: kind of driving us to,
54:37
SPEAKER_02: again,
54:38
SPEAKER_02: that confession of Romans 7.
54:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, the only one who's going to deliver you, thanks be to God, it's through Jesus Christ our Lord.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's always,
54:49
SPEAKER_02: not to just overuse that passage,
54:52
SPEAKER_02: but I think that should be the culmination of every sermon is like,
54:58
SPEAKER_02: here's the offer of deliverance and salvation for you, no matter what your circumstance is.
55:03
SPEAKER_02: It's thanks be to God.
55:04
SPEAKER_02: It's because of Jesus Christ.
55:06
SPEAKER_02: It's because of the gospel.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's the nice thing,
55:09
SPEAKER_00: like,
55:10
SPEAKER_00: when you,
55:10
SPEAKER_00: as a pastor who considers these things like you do,
55:13
SPEAKER_00: and saying,
55:13
SPEAKER_00: hey,
55:14
SPEAKER_00: I've got to get Christ at the center because it's the permanent solution.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: It's so nice.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: We might have mentioned even one of the earlier podcasts.
55:20
SPEAKER_00: But that stat that always bothered me about the guy that,
55:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:23
SPEAKER_00: they were doing some research and they went into churches and figured out how many sermons,
55:27
SPEAKER_00: how many,
55:27
SPEAKER_00: they had to keep going back every Sunday until they heard the gospel being pointed
55:30
SPEAKER_00: to Christ.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: And some of them were in the same church for over a year.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: And it's so nice that if you think of these things and you realize Christ is the center,
55:37
SPEAKER_00: he really is essential in every message then.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: Because God forbid that person showed up that was really coming to Christ.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: They wanted to know.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: And they were there the Sunday that it wasn't there.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: And they never found out the permanent solution.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I love...
55:51
SPEAKER_00: that everything is Christ-centered.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: And I know some people get sick of it because,
55:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:54
SPEAKER_00: it's the common,
55:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:55
SPEAKER_00: we all know,
55:55
SPEAKER_00: like,
55:55
SPEAKER_00: I've heard it before.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: I know I'm saved.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: I am saved.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: I have Jesus.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: Now what do I do with it?
55:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, hey, like you said, we forget.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: Why do you think, like, Jesus, one of his biggest things in communion is remember me.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: I always notice that.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: Remember me is because...
56:10
SPEAKER_00: we forget.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Even the best Christian,
56:12
SPEAKER_00: even the pastor,
56:13
SPEAKER_00: when we're out there and we get these phone calls or these emails or whatever,
56:15
SPEAKER_00: we're not thinking about Christ at that very moment.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: And when we leave those tasks and our minds are in a tizzy on whatever occurred or
56:22
SPEAKER_00: whatever meeting we had or whatever we're going through,
56:24
SPEAKER_00: We're going to be in a tizzy and maybe in a tailspin until we remember ourselves.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, Christ.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: Got to get focused on that.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: And easier said than done, obviously.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: But it's definitely the answer.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: There's no other answer you're going to find in the Bible.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, hey, can I get around this whole Christ thing?
56:39
SPEAKER_00: What is going to fix me now?
56:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, Christ is going to fix you now.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: That's the only person who will do it.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: He's the answer.
56:46
SPEAKER_02: I like what you said.
56:47
SPEAKER_02: He's the permanent solution, which is why he's...
56:51
SPEAKER_02: He's always the point.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: He's the message.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: He's what every sermon should be about.
56:57
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, that's why God has put us in this position in the first place.
57:03
SPEAKER_02: And so for discouraged Christians and discouraged pastors,
57:08
SPEAKER_02: again,
57:08
SPEAKER_02: just to reiterate the solution,
57:11
SPEAKER_02: preach the Gospels for yourself.
57:13
SPEAKER_02: Because the Gospel is the Word of God that delivers Christ to you.
57:18
SPEAKER_02: And He's the permanent solution.
57:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm just thankful for all of you who are listening.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: interacting with me on the blog, continue to do so.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to stay active by responding to you and replying to you.
57:51
SPEAKER_02: But anyways, as always, thank you so much for all your support and your encouragement.
57:55
SPEAKER_02: And thanks for listening to this one.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: And I look forward to coming to you hopefully soon on another episode of the Ministry of Minded podcast.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: Until then, I'll see you then.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: Blessings.