Latest / The Nation Podcasts / Norm Eisen on the Paramount-Warners Merger, plus Trump and TV News / Start Making Sense

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Norm Eisen on the Paramount-Warners Merger, plus Trump and TV News / Start Making Sense · The Nation Podcasts

0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: From the Nation Magazine, this is Start Making Sense.
0:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm John Weiner.
0:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Later in the show, the TV network's finally united in rebelling against Trump.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: John Nichols will explain.
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But first, the big sellout, California Attorney General Rob Bata signed a sweetheart deal with the Trump ally to merge media giants paramount and Warner Brothers.
0:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Norm Eisen has our analysis in a minute.
0:37
[SPEAKER_01]: election protection and media independence.
0:40
[SPEAKER_01]: For the latest on these topics, we turn to Norm Eisen.
0:44
[SPEAKER_01]: He's co-founder and executive chair of the Democracy Defenders Fund and Democracy Defenders Action, which work on stopping Trump's assault on democracy in protecting elections.
0:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Before that, he worked as co-counsel for the House Judiciary Committee during Trump's first impeachment and trial.
1:02
[SPEAKER_01]: in 2019 and 2020, and before that, he was Obama's White House ethics czar, and then Obama's ambassador to the Czech Republic.
1:12
[SPEAKER_01]: He's written many books, he's a frequent guest on CNN and MS now, and his writing appears in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic, and online at his sub-stack, The Contrarian, Norm Eisen, welcome back.
1:26
[SPEAKER_02]: John, you know, I love being with you, my friend and all my friends on the nation podcast.
1:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, last time you were here was the first day you went to court to defend Davy Hürn, the Olympic athlete who had just been arrested in Washington at the reflecting pool on the mall.
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: What exactly was his crime?
1:48
[SPEAKER_01]: What had he done?
1:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Davy Hürn touched water.
1:54
[SPEAKER_02]: He felt he validated the already detaching liner of the reflecting pool and John, since I was last with you to say that Davey, who brought on her to his nation by touching water as an Olympian and as a world champion many times over.
2:17
[SPEAKER_02]: was then being prosecuted.
2:19
[SPEAKER_02]: That's no crime.
2:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And starting at the arrangement, and then in seven subsequent motions, we absolutely battered the government's case and showed again and again that Davy was innocent.
2:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And finally, we forced them to concede, yes.
2:38
[SPEAKER_02]: David Hurn is innocent, the, well, they would not admit his innocence, but they did say, which is the same thing.
2:46
[SPEAKER_02]: A botched rushed installation was the cause of the damage, including in the exact sector that he touched.
2:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's no case left against David, and the case has been dismissed.
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for that one.
3:01
[SPEAKER_02]: One of three hundred, over three hundred matters.
3:05
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's one of the more important ones because it exposes the essence of corruption.
3:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Trump did it.
3:12
[SPEAKER_02]: He's blaming Davey Huren's scapegoating.
3:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Corruption.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
3:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, this week's big news is that on Monday, California Attorney General Rob Bonta,
3:22
[SPEAKER_01]: agreed to settle the lawsuit that had blocked Paramount's massive takeover of Warner Brothers, the deal that would give the Ellison family supporters of Donald Trump control over not just CBS news, which they already have, but also
3:38
[SPEAKER_01]: CNN.
3:39
[SPEAKER_01]: The New York Times reports that you have been, quote, the leader of a coalition of entertainment and news industry professionals who opposed the deal, a lot of us are feeling betrayed this week by Rob Bonta, who had a strong record of standing up to Trump, tell us about that deal that he agreed to.
4:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no massive multi-state case like this one is about anyone person.
4:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember, Gavin Newsom is the one who first called for this while AG's were continuing to push strong
4:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, it's not the outcome we hope for understand why people are angry and upset.
4:30
[SPEAKER_02]: We, as I told the times, we made a formal announcement.
4:35
[SPEAKER_02]: last night on Oliver Darcy's status and wonderful publication.
4:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I've talked to other reporters about it, John, and I'm glad to tell the nation.
4:45
[SPEAKER_02]: This independent editorial board, which even A.G. Tom of Connecticut, who was pushing for the board, even the H.E.'
4:53
[SPEAKER_02]: 's expressed their disappointment in the deal.
4:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just fill in here.
4:58
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the biggest concerns has been
5:00
[SPEAKER_01]: protecting CNN from the pro-Trump owners, and the deal included what they said would be a board of journalists that would quote, ensure the editorial independence of CNN and CBS News.
5:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we all want to know how is that supposed to work?
5:19
[SPEAKER_01]: How is it going to be informed?
5:21
[SPEAKER_02]: the journalists are being appointed by the Ellison's Board of Directors, but we're going to apply and we're going to put the independence in this supposed journalistic independence board as a coalition, including us at Democracy Defenders.
5:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Our new program is called C Watch.
5:42
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going
5:47
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to watch CBS.
5:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to watch CNN.
5:50
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I just merged them as CBS, which is a good coinage.
5:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to watch the cronies to make sure that the
6:07
[SPEAKER_02]: We will call out of the board is not credible.
6:10
[SPEAKER_02]: We will represent as we did in the Karen, a T.A.
6:13
[SPEAKER_02]: case, which we helped that crusading journalist win against another Trump crowning and collaborator, Jeff Bezos and his Washington Post.
6:23
[SPEAKER_02]: They falsely accused her that was
6:26
[SPEAKER_02]: uh, proud to represent her with the uh, Washington News Guild.
6:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have this sewatch program with the coalition, including whistleblowers and journalists who feel that the combined entity is not being honest.
6:42
[SPEAKER_02]: We're ready to make sure they have lawyers to go to court ourselves and to call out, starting in the election, John with our partners.
6:51
[SPEAKER_02]: like the wonderful media matters or to call out if they're doing a election subversion propaganda on either of these networks will see.
7:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're not leaving it to others.
7:05
[SPEAKER_02]: We in civil society.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, let's remember the AG's
7:11
[SPEAKER_02]: People are tough on them and they people should articulate what they feel that's the meaning of the first amendment.
7:18
[SPEAKER_02]: But these are the same ages who've given us over a hundred cases defending our democracy.
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: We just with me and our partners in civil society, the democracy movement.
7:29
[SPEAKER_02]: We just want the postal service case.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do more cases together.
7:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So the movement is larger than anyone.
7:38
[SPEAKER_02]: No matter how disappointed we may be in the outcome and as I say some of the agencies themselves are speaking out about their disappointment.
7:48
[SPEAKER_01]: The larger reason we were excited about this case.
7:53
[SPEAKER_01]: the Paramount Warner Brothers merger was it it seemed to show that even when the federal government under Trump had abandoned anti-trust enforcement, the states, the blue states, working together, could do that work.
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: The settlement seems to show that's really not going to be possible.
8:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I going too far here?
8:13
[SPEAKER_02]: you're going a little too far because the blue states had triumphs.
8:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Next are Tegna, another very important media consolidation in live nation ticket master.
8:28
[SPEAKER_02]: If I have to articulate a disappointment, it is with Governor Newsom who led the political establishment in California.
8:39
[SPEAKER_02]: including both in and outside of government, those who we had normally admire and work with, to pull the rug out from under our state AGs.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty end labor who were a part of this case.
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty, that's a pretty tough situation.
8:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not making excuses.
8:57
[SPEAKER_02]: You know I'm a fighter and it's been reported in the press.
9:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I worked furiously all weekend to try to stop this.
9:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, let's, let's make sure we're taking a holistic view.
9:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And in California, you know, the moment, my personal, oh shit moment was when the Wall Street Journal reported that Governor News was
9:25
[SPEAKER_02]: pushing for a settlement, and he did not repudiate the Wall Street Journal.
9:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's plenty of responsibility to be taken.
9:36
[SPEAKER_02]: But with all of that, there's also we need to understand this in context of larger fights, including fights that Governor Newsom just signed a bill that will toughen California elections against intrusion.
9:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So as bitterly disappointed as I am on this fight, I think there's hope even for future anti-dress fights and John just like seawatch our new coalition.
10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The block the merger coalition is not stopping.
10:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we'll rename ourselves the block the mergers.
10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: We've never had this kind of mass nationwide anti-corrupt
10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: combination coalition, you know, I love a iteration.
10:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So our coalition is keeping going.
10:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a big tent coalition and different people have different feelings about the people involved here.
10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And even about the settlement itself, some people ranges from
10:40
[SPEAKER_02]: power, but there are some people in the coalition who, you know, don't exist.
10:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody's excited, but it's a diversity of views.
10:51
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what big tents are.
10:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We have conservatives.
10:54
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, conservatives also have historically questioned too much power, some on the more libertarian
11:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Look at Teddy Roosevelt.
11:09
[SPEAKER_02]: He was going to republ again in many ways the godfather of modern modern anti-trust.
11:15
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, there's many, many more chapters to be written in this fight.
11:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if I'm not going to lie, I share the anger and the disappointment.
11:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to talk also about another big case.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You've been at the center of a lot of our friends have been worried about election protection, especially about ICE at the polls.
11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And whether the report will be able to stop Trump from sending ICE or other federal officers to polling places on election day to intimidate democratic voters.
11:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You have just filed a lawsuit along with other election protection groups.
11:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You're representing the NAACP, Asian and Latino groups, several big unions.
11:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it made me so happy.
12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I entered my appearance, and I got back on the docket.
12:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It said, Norman Eisen representing the painters, the AFT and other unions.
12:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, wow, I'm proud and of course that is something that's why I like to come on the nation podcast because these principles of in this case, the NA and the other.
12:31
[SPEAKER_02]: a racial justice groups, equity, and justice for all Americans are so present.
12:39
[SPEAKER_02]: We are a labor-centered movement in the democracy movement, black and browns, leaders, but also big tant John.
12:47
[SPEAKER_02]: we also have room for more conservative voices in our movement.
12:52
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, besides the end of LA, there's in our case, there's a companion case that is led by Lou Lac, the city of Denver, is involved in that two parallel cases.
13:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So what is that case about?
13:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Ice has made clear.
13:07
[SPEAKER_02]: that they and the FBI and other Trump's little green people will be intimidating voters, including at the polls.
13:18
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a voter intimidation scheme.
13:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to wait for November.
13:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's begun already John.
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we filed right now under section 11B of the voting rights act, other parts of the voting rights act that have been gutted 11B is so strong.
13:37
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't intimidate voters in this fashion.
13:41
[SPEAKER_02]: They're doing it right now.
13:42
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not something that we need to wait for.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to protect the polls just like we worked on the national guard case that went to
13:54
[SPEAKER_02]: We helped get a ruling, court ruling, the National Guard can't be deployed willy-nilly.
14:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're pushing back on these issues to make like we did on the postal service with those same ages that everybody's so mad at.
14:10
[SPEAKER_02]: But we wanted the Supreme Court, we protected the vote and, you know, this is the case where we're fighting, and I think we're in, I think voters can be confident that their vote will be safe free and fair because of this big coalition of election protection government officials and groups like democracy defenders, we got your back.
14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's time for your Minnesota moment.
14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: That's news from my hometown of Saint Paul that you won't get from Sean Hannity.
14:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Norm, you represent the Minnesota eight, one of the plaintiffs in the what we call the NAACP lawsuit.
14:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And Saint Paul is sort of the ground zero for this lawsuit.
14:52
[SPEAKER_01]: and Saint Paul sort of ground zero for for this.
14:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the aggressive door to door enforcement operations in the Southeast Asia neighborhoods of Saint Paul.
15:04
[SPEAKER_01]: That is one of the pieces of evidence you've said in this case.
15:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, our client in the case is organized labor, but you are right that the case encompasses this shocking ice behavior, John.
15:20
[SPEAKER_02]: in the midst of the ice crackdown.
15:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I traveled to Minnesota personally on a delegation with NAACP Head, Derek Johnson, and Lou Lachead, Juan Proano, to see the horror for myself.
15:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe history will record the events in Minnesota, the way we talk about Birmingham or Montgomery or Selma when we talk about the civil rights movement.
15:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It won't the country up.
15:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not important just for our litigation.
15:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's historic because it's a pivot point in the democracy movement.
16:08
[SPEAKER_02]: in around or in the run-up to election day.
16:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're very proud to be litigating a prevention of any repetition of that.
16:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we've got a big coalition.
16:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Trump sometimes says big and beautiful.
16:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Our coalition really is big and beautiful.
16:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It looks like American we are gonna stop this from happening again.
16:35
[SPEAKER_01]: One more thing you mentioned that California has just passed several election protection laws.
16:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to just look at those briefly.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: One bill prohibits the seizure of ballots, election records or voting technology before an election.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: is certified, that's the official declaration of the winner.
16:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Another makes it a felony for people in positions of authority to direct workers to interfere with the delivery of a male ballot or its return.
17:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Another of the Duke California laws
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: prohibits arrests within 200 feet of a polling place on election day, with exceptions for acts related to disrupting the election or crimes against people or property, but should every state have laws like this?
17:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I'll tell you why every state should have its own
17:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Under one of the founding principles of our country, it's called Man legal circles, scholars of the founding and framing of the Constitution, our federalism.
17:49
[SPEAKER_02]: States are given primary power over elections,
17:55
[SPEAKER_02]: that's in article one section four of the Constitution.
17:58
[SPEAKER_02]: There is a role for Congress as well.
18:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's totally silent article one section four.
18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no role for the president in that text.
18:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So states have a broader per view of powers.
18:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Donald Trump can't pardon state crimes.
18:17
[SPEAKER_02]: We're seeing ICE people going back to Minnesota and the other ICE atrocities being prosecuted in the states for violating state criminal law same year.
18:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Let everybody know if you break the law Donald Trump's B has now fortunately we wanted the Supreme Court so the illegal postal service rules have been frozen.
18:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Supreme Court left the injunction in place, but there's many other ways Donald Trump could instruct instruct law-breaking, sure he can pardon himself and others not for state crimes.
18:52
[SPEAKER_02]: State damages actions, also on the civil side, state prohibitions can be enforced under
18:59
[SPEAKER_02]: article one section four in our federalism by the federal court civil provisions.
19:04
[SPEAKER_02]: We need these laws and many more not just in the election area.
19:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's assert our state authority to protect our democracy.
19:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We have blue state power.
19:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's use it, and that's a place where these laws were incubated.
19:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I know everybody's mad at Monten knew some, but they were incubated by Monten knew some and signed in.
19:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not excusing the Paramount Warner settlement, but there is a larger landscape here.
19:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you've brought us to a suitable place.
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So feel your rage, but then I let mine out and we've protesting today in front of Paramount.
19:51
[SPEAKER_02]: They're the real ones we should be mad at.
19:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We should start with the Elisons.
19:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's ventilate.
19:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And then let's keep the block the merger fight going.
20:01
[SPEAKER_02]: There's much more we can do including with C watch.
20:04
[SPEAKER_02]: There's litigation and other things we can look at.
20:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And let's also move on.
20:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, we can walk and chew gum deal with some of these other battles, John.
20:14
[SPEAKER_01]: In conclusion here, what's the most important thing we can do to preserve free and fair elections?
20:22
[SPEAKER_02]: be an elections champion.
20:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm care who you vote for.
20:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Vote.
20:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Vote early.
20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Vote by mail if that's your preferred form of voting.
20:37
[SPEAKER_02]: If you have another preferred form to go in in person for early voting to do a drop box to vote on election.
20:47
[SPEAKER_02]: day.
20:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Every day's election day now, John, because of early voting and mail in voting, and we protected that.
20:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So be an election champion by voting, voting in the way that is best for you, voting early, and getting everybody else, you know to turn out and vote.
21:08
[SPEAKER_02]: A voter intensity is sky high.
21:15
[SPEAKER_02]: whoever you vote for to to bring democracy back by having an overwhelming turnout.
21:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So putting on my democracy defenders action hat, that's the number one action we're looking for.
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's have an overwhelming turnout.
21:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Normisen is a hero of election protection.
21:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Co-founder and executive chair of democracy defenders fund in the Democracy Defenders Action
21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Norm, thank you for all your work.
21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And thanks for talking with us today.
21:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, John.
21:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Look forward to being back with you again soon.
22:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this week, the big news is about the news, Trump banned CNN MS now in political from the White House, and the TV news networks responded by refusing TV coverage of Trump's events.
22:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This is really an unprecedented show of resistance by the mainstream media, ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox.
22:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Are all not providing any TV news coverage of Trump's events.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Fox, I emphasize, Fox is participating in the mainstream media's refusal to provide TV coverage of Trump.
22:55
[SPEAKER_01]: What's your assessment of this move?
22:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think it's significant what's going on.
23:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I would clarify only in not providing TV coverage of Trump because my sense is that they will still cover him quite a bit.
23:14
[SPEAKER_03]: He will not be unheard by the same token.
23:17
[SPEAKER_03]: They are not participating in some of the structural things associated with TV coverage.
23:25
[SPEAKER_03]: and that includes, you know, providing the close-in camera crew that that tends to travel with the president out of particular day or do something.
23:36
[SPEAKER_03]: At the end of the day, what we're seeing is something that is fascinating.
23:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Trump is trying to bar certain networks.
23:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Other networks are trying to say, look, we just approve of that and we stand in solidarity with those who have been
23:51
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, excluded in this situation.
23:54
[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be a very amorphous and complicated process.
23:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's really vital to understand.
24:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we can get to some of the deeper questions about, you know, how the White House Press Corps covers things in general, all of the very legitimate questions about, you know, this whole notion of access, media, etc.
24:12
[SPEAKER_03]: But
24:13
[SPEAKER_03]: What was fascinating here?
24:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll give very high marks to Caitlin Collins as an example.
24:17
[SPEAKER_03]: We are speaking on the day that the UN General Assembly is sort of kicking in into session in as Trump was coming out of one of his events there.
24:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And he essentially said, don't paraphrasing, well, you're not supposed to be here.
24:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And Caitlin Collins came back without a lot of explanation, without a lot of, you know, extrapolation on it.
24:43
[SPEAKER_03]: She just said, the UN says we can be here.
24:46
[SPEAKER_03]: And then she said her question again, very journalistic, you know, just kind of keep pressing on it.
24:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And what's remarkable, at least striking is Trump answered it.
24:55
[SPEAKER_03]: So in that little clash, you saw a reporter kind of,
25:00
[SPEAKER_03]: step into the void that's been created, you know, use the avenues that are available, i.e.
25:06
[SPEAKER_03]: that that other places aren't bar in media, you know, Trump's trying to do at the White House, and got a question asked and answered.
25:14
[SPEAKER_03]: We saw similar situation the day before at Gracie Manchin
25:20
[SPEAKER_03]: where a lot of the outlets that were barred were apparently present.
25:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where Mayor Mombani invited Trump to the official residence for an hour conversation about, especially about developing housing in New York.
25:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, good conversation apparently.
25:37
[SPEAKER_03]: And more power to Mombani.
25:41
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, for finding avenues that you can try and, you know, help a city at this event, the issue of barring media outlets came up and long gone.
25:49
[SPEAKER_03]: He stepped to the microphone and said, hey, in this place, you know, we welcome.
25:54
[SPEAKER_03]: the broad range of media media that we agree that we might like better than others or whatever.
25:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to, I want to be very careful about how I paraphrase, you know, him.
26:03
[SPEAKER_03]: But the bottom line was he's at the range of opinions the spectrum of ideas and it was a very, I'm a Johnny's part of a very good restatement of basic premises of, pretty much the press respect thereof.
26:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And then Trump stepped up and made his attempt at a defense of what he has done.
26:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We're in this kind of interesting place.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Trump's ban was on White House access, especially to the White House press room.
26:32
[SPEAKER_01]: to the three news institutions that he says are providing only far-left propaganda, that everything that they say about him is negative.
26:42
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing about his accomplishments, and he's sick of it, and so he's not allowing them in the White House.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Other networks have responded that they won't
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: step in to provide the TV coverage that CNN usually does.
26:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Just remind us, what does the Constitution say about the president banning what he considers to be far-left propaganda?
27:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I've heard a lot about this in fact by my chosen idea six books on this and the basic premise of the first amendment, which by the way, was forced on the founders, they were trying to get the Constitution approved in, you know, the former British colonies now states and a whole bunch of places said,
27:34
[SPEAKER_03]: opinions that you may disagree with or many of you may disagree with.
27:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Bottom line was that to get the Constitution approved, you had to have a bill of rights, the bill of rights starts out with affording people, some basic rights that have to be understood in connection to each other.
27:51
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't because the founders liked a free press per se.
27:56
[SPEAKER_03]: They liked the idea
27:58
[SPEAKER_03]: that informed populace would get a lot of opinions and then sort through that.
28:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what you end up within the first amendment.
28:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what the courts today have said is that this part of the first amendment prohibits what they call viewpoint discrimination.
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you say what Trump is doing now is a kind of a textbook case of viewpoint discrimination banning people to criticize him from covering the White House?
28:25
[SPEAKER_03]: He explicitly acknowledges the decision on the quality of opinions.
28:31
[SPEAKER_03]: that come through on any platform and in a newspaper and digital and broadcast.
28:39
[SPEAKER_03]: That's by-large, according to our Constitution, according to basic premises of this experiment.
28:44
[SPEAKER_03]: That's to the people.
28:45
[SPEAKER_03]: They get to sort it out in some sort of free market of ideas.
28:49
[SPEAKER_03]: And the danger.
28:51
[SPEAKER_03]: in this is the concentration of ownership of media, i.e.
28:56
[SPEAKER_03]: if a small handful of very powerful and very wealthy individuals controlled huge swaths of media, they create a narrow discussion that is perhaps often or is often.
29:10
[SPEAKER_03]: more connected to their concerns, right?
29:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Can they make a lot of money?
29:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Can they have the free trade deals that they see as beneficial to them?
29:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Can they have the wars that they think need to be fought, et cetera, without really having that clash of ideas that invites the populace into the discourse, perhaps to say no to power.
29:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, boy, there's so much space in which to do media criticism,
29:38
[SPEAKER_03]: We just celebrated the 40th anniversary of fairness and accuracy and reporting a great progressive group that does media critique and looks at all this in really brilliant ways.
29:47
[SPEAKER_03]: There are conservative media critics who often look at this in very smart and serious ways.
29:53
[SPEAKER_03]: The person who shouldn't be media decider is the president of the state.
29:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Presidents can always critique the media.
30:00
[SPEAKER_03]: They can criticize.
30:01
[SPEAKER_03]: That's totally legitimate, but when you take that and couple it with power and FCC, presidential orders, things like that, that's where it gets very dangerous for democracy.
30:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Network TV news, the audience has been declining for years.
30:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Cable TV news, that audience is declining, but Trump, you grew up with TV.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He made his career in TV is what made him famous, made it possible for him to run for
30:27
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a TV addict.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been told his staff organizes his entire schedule around his favorite programs on Fox News.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: He loves good TV coverage.
30:39
[SPEAKER_01]: He fumes about bad TV coverage.
30:42
[SPEAKER_01]: His most crazed social media posts are usually responses to something he saw on TV.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So he cares about this a lot more than millions of Americans do.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: and the White House is now encouraging people to abandon TV news, which has criticized him and download the White House app to get the direct feed of Trump's official events.
31:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Monday they announced the creation of something they're calling Trump TV streaming on the White House YouTube channel.
31:18
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a way to kind of expand the mega media bubble
31:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's ominous for us because it is the creation of state-run media as an official propaganda operation.
31:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you tried to look at Trump TV on YouTube?
31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand there's nothing there now, but a replay of the 2025 inauguration.
31:42
[SPEAKER_03]: busy days, John, and I haven't quite had it a time, and what I might suggest to you is that I think the overwhelming majority of Americans are probably not going to find their way to that app.
31:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's to the good.
31:59
[SPEAKER_03]: the way to address the crisis of major media is a diversity of ownership, a diversity of views.
32:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I.e.
32:08
[SPEAKER_03]: many platforms that people can easily access that ideally at least try to give facts, information, and perspective.
32:18
[SPEAKER_03]: and I always go back to a reference that we made in one of our books a long time ago that about a century ago in New York City there were 24 daily newspapers and when you went to a newsstand it was just you know so many other.
32:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk a little bit more about what we are losing.
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: with the network news not providing TV coverage of official White House events.
32:42
[SPEAKER_01]: What are official White House events?
32:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's these White House newsroom jousting between the press secretary and the appointed representative of the of the media.
32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the official photo ops.
32:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the first one that didn't get covered.
32:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand yesterday there was a ribbon cutting ceremony.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: for Trump's new helipad on the south lawn.
33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And we did not get to see video of that.
33:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk to miss that.
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: What's your, I mean, this is something that you've written about a great deal.
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What goes on in the White House newsroom and what goes on at official photo ops?
33:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of it is very propagandistic.
33:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's under Democrats and Republicans, by the way.
33:27
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, they manage the imagery and the power of the office in ways to influence the discourse.
33:35
[SPEAKER_03]: There's simply no question of that.
33:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, a lot of times the White House press corps is there filming it, recording it, kind of putting it out.
33:43
[SPEAKER_03]: I frankly do often wonder about the value of having major media outlets, basically,
33:52
[SPEAKER_03]: repeating doing what was what is sometimes called stenography to power, right?
33:56
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a great question of access journalism, right?
34:00
[SPEAKER_03]: You're there and you want to be called on.
34:02
[SPEAKER_03]: You want to be given the interview.
34:04
[SPEAKER_03]: You want to, you know, have that access.
34:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And I understand the dynamic and I understand people who think it's important and valuable, but I would tell you that my concept of journalism and you know, people practice it in many different ways,
34:22
[SPEAKER_03]: But journalism is about expressing your opinions, journalism is about gathering information, it's all part of this great mix, but if I look back at what kind of influenced me as a young person, it tended to be not a White House press conference.
34:37
[SPEAKER_03]: or a White House photo app.
34:40
[SPEAKER_03]: It was in some parking garage in Washington, where apparently Woodward and Bernstein were meeting with some guy called himself deep throat.
34:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And who was an insider, right?
34:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Who's it turned out?
34:54
[SPEAKER_03]: History tells us, was an insider new, is where round what was going on in the circles of power,
35:07
[SPEAKER_03]: provide that information said, maybe we should meet on the third level of the parking garage at some late-time at night.
35:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And it strikes me that information that matters very, very often comes outside the White House and outside that circle of access.
35:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And we should be making that a big part of our discussion at this point.
35:34
[SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't mean, even if we have a critique of some of how things have operated the past, that doesn't mean you should anyway blink on opposing what Trump is doing, right?
35:47
[SPEAKER_03]: That what Trump is doing is in and of itself wrong and bad.
35:53
[SPEAKER_03]: But as entoken, if we want to start to open up a discussion about how the White House should be covered, I guess I'm probably in the, you know, all of this and more camp.
36:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you're, if you can get in there and get a question asked, especially maybe in a hallway, not at the official briefing, but off to the side, there's something like, I guess, what you would have seen in West Wing, and it's best, the West Wing, it comes to mind.
36:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you can get information that way, great, you know, I understand that.
36:24
[SPEAKER_03]: But I do think that a lot of our media outlets have underplayed.
36:28
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, going to the parking rush or going to, you know, trying to, you know, like cultivate sources outside of that that kind of nero circle of power.
36:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And they may be people who have power.
36:40
[SPEAKER_03]: But when they step out of the official briefing room, I think that's often where we get the most important information.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: John Nichols, reading with themation.com.
36:49
[SPEAKER_01]: John, thanks for talking with us today.
36:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
37:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Start making sense.
37:02
[SPEAKER_01]: A podcast from the nation magazine is recorded at our upstairs studio in Los Angeles.
37:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Renee Reynolds is our associate producer, Alan Minski is our producer.
37:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Ricky D. Ambrose is executive producer, Boskarsun Kara is president of the nation, Katrina Van Nouvelle is editor and publisher of the nation.
37:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Our theme music is Barcelona Afrobeat, License by Creative Commons.
37:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find out more about Start Making Sense at thenation.com and subscribe to Start Making Sense on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
37:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm John Weiner.
37:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.