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Jan. 6 Then & Now: The Insurrection Blueprint (with Tom Joscelyn) · The Oath and The Office

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm John Feeble saying, so pleased to be with you.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: It's so pleased to welcome the professor, the author Corey Bretschneider,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: who I have read for years in the New York
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Times at MSNBC, and I read The Oath in the Office,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and I read the Presidents and the People, and now
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I get to do a podcast with them.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Professor.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: It's good to see you.
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: Thanks John, and it's been a real pleasure doing this
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: with you. And we have quite a show today. Of course,
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: we're going to talk about the horror that ice is inflicting.
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: I'm Minnesota, on the attempts to fight back in the
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: hopeful ways in which people are fighting back in the
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: courts and through protest, and then of course we have
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: a guest. I think it's going to be one of
• 0:51
  Speaker 4: our most important episodes. Literally, the author of the January
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: sixth Report, Senior staff to the January sixth Committee, and
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: it's just the person who really knows the most about
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: the details of what unfolded on January sixth, the truth
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: of what happened. And I also want to ask him
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: too about well part of it about how we correct
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: the record, because it's really a history that's being written
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: by Trump and his cronies to undermine what really happened.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I can't wait for it. I'm really pleased. Let's talk
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: about what's going on now. Saturday, federal agents killed another Minnesotan,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: shooting a vaic unurse named Alex pretty seven to ten times,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: we're not sure yet, after wrestling into the ground as
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: doing him he was filming ICE agents, which is legal
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: in all fifty states, and tackled after helping another woman
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: off the ground. Now, for those who saw the video,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: they didn't kill him while he was committing a crime.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: They didn't kill him while he was threatening civilians, or
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: while he was fleeing or brandishing a weapon, Nor was
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: he protesting, nor was he interfering with law enforcement. They
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: disarmed and then killed an American citizen while he was
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: trying to protect a woman who had just been shoved
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: to the ground and peppered sprayed by a masked, armed
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: government agent. As folks probably know by now, he was
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a registered nurse and ICU caregiver for vets, a man
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: with no criminal record, a man who spent his life
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: healing bodies broken by violence, and he was killed for
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: trying to stop it. Following the shooting, Border Patrol Piumunculust,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Greg Bavino, and a bunch of ICE agents, including those
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: who killed him, have been reassigned out of Minnesota, but
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: they remain on duty.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Corey.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: When federal agents kill a civilian and then immediately try
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: to control the narrative immediately, as we saw with Renee Good,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: lie about the victim, lie about the circumstance, and essentially
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: ask us to not believe what our own eyes tell
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: us on video. What core democratic principles are being violated already.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: It's almost a case study if you want to think
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: about what democracy is and should be a case study
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: and how to undermine it because it is the definition
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: of authoritarianism. The multiple ways that in Minnesota and with
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: the second killing, that they're systematically trying to destroy our democracy.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: I've used the term self coup. Some people worried, well,
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: that suggests a kind of violence. Well here it is.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: The violence was not far from the service. And now
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: with a second killing, really execution. If you see that video,
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: you see that this is an attempt to create a
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: group of stormtroopers employed by the government to shut down
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: free speech.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: And what better example than that than.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: To look at this horrible second killing.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Where was he what did he have?
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: This ICU nurse had nothing more than a camera that
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: he was recording what was going on. Now, he did
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: have a weapon on him, which was perfectly legal under
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: Minnesota law, but he wasn't brandishing it, it wasn't threatening
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: them with it. And the lies that they're telling also
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: speak to the way that they're trying to shut down
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: free speech, not just with murder and with the use
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: of force, but by really denying us access to basic
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: information of what's happening, lying to our faces, gaslighting us
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: as we see these videos over and over it's clear
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: what happened, and claiming that somehow this was a terrorist,
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: that he was intent on killing people at the scene.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: None of that is true.
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: And yet Stephen Miller said precisely that, so you ask,
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: you know, what does it teach us about democracy? First
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: of all, the right to protest. If you're an authoritarian,
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: shut it down with the use of force, that's what
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: the most aggressive authoritarians do. What else, changed the information
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: flow so that we can't have access to the truth.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: Those are the two things, most obviously that we're seeing
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: right now.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: You know, Corey, my friend, the great comedian Rick Overton
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: likes to say about everybody, all citizens, having a video
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: camera in their pocket. He refers to the phone as
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: little brother is watching. Little brother is watching, and we've
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: already seen. If Renee Good hadn't been filmed, we'd assume
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: she was a terrorist. If this man hadn't been filmed,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the government lies with stick that he had attacked agents. Now,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: folks watching us or listening to us have probably already
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: seen the videos. If you haven't, I highly recommend them.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: It shows Alex Pretty in the middle of a street
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: legally recording. He waves a car through traffic. He's calm,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: he's not shouting threats. He's not a protester. That's another
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: lie they keep telling. There's like half a dozen people
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: out there. There is no protest. There's people on the
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: sidewalk watching. And this DHS agent approaches a woman near
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: mister Pretty. Voices are raised. Mister Pretty moves the woman
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: toward the sidewalk, away from the agent. This other woman
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: comes over and yells at the officer, and the officer
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: because these are not men, shoves that woman to the ground,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and that's the pivot point. Alex Pretty then, instinctively, because
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: this guy is a man who has compassion for people,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: steps in between the agent and the woman that's just
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: been shoved to the ground, and he softly places one
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: hand on the agent, raises the other hand in the
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: air like hands up right, like his whole body language.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Corey is like, I'm not attacking you. It's not domination,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: it's de escalation by a civilian. Single woman get hurt,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: and the agent responds by pepper spraying the guy in
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: the face and he turns away. He's still filming. He
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: bends to help the woman. The agent sprays both Pretty
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: and the woman. More agents come in. At least six
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: officers tackle this guy, spray them again. They punch him
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: and Corey. My understanding is that pepper spraying a person
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: while trying to handcuff them when they haven't broken any
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: laws doesn't really create compliance. I mean it creates panic
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: and involuntary resistance. Trained cops would know this. Now we've
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: heard the initial claim. They said the director of who
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Land Security said he pulled a gun on ice. How dangerous?
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: How dangerous is it when the state not just lies
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: reflexively to justify lethal force. But when they lie so
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: broadly and stupidly believing they can get away with it.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is what you mean when you talk
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: about the erosion of truth as a democratic value.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: That's right that Steven Miller thought he could call this
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: person a terrorist and claim that he was somehow involved
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: in a violent act when we have video after video
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: that is showing that. Thankfully we do have these videos,
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: because as you say, not only would they have gotten
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: away with it in the first case, they would have
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: gotten away with it in the case of alex pretty
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: if we didn't have evidence, at least a large portion
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: of their base, and many Americans who are sort of
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: on the fence about all this might have thought, you know,
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: this is really what happened was a justifiable attack. But
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: giving you access to the video shows you not just
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: that he didn't pull a gun on them, but that
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: he was disarmed. In fact, they pulled the gun away
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: that he was lawfully carrying well before they began to
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: shoot him multiple times, including after he was clearly incapacitated.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: This was a panicked.
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Group of as you say, untrained really you know, thugs.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: I think is really we described them.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: They're like a violent gang that are trying to act
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: at the behest of Donald Trump and even Miller. And
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: there is a kind of chaos that comes out of
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: the video that really is what this is about. Now,
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: you know, I love your piece John on Substack about
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: you know, don't invoke the Nazis unless it's called for,
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: while I'm going to invoke a comparison because there were
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: a group of stormtroopers untrained in Nazi Germany the SA
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: later replaced by the s S.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Shows you that the.
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: Kind of training that we're talking about is what's important.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: We have to talk about training for civil liberties protection,
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: not just for effectiveness and subduing people.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: And you know, that's.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: What you have here, a group of stormtroopers acting chaotically, untrained,
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: many of them, by the way, trained online. That's what's
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: coming out about their training, that they actually haven't been
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: trained in person for one thousand dollars bonus for ICE recruitment.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: These are not professionals.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: And so we'll get into this later, but that's that's
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: why this is systemic. It really is Steven Miller and
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: Christy Nome, who we talked about the need to impeach
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: ordering a group of really chaotic, untrained ice agents. I
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: hesitate to use that term. It sounds too legitimate thugs
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: to attack people exercising no more than their first amendment right.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: So the fact that he had the phone up, what
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: is that?
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: That is the exercise of something that is constitutionally protected activity,
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: and yet they murdered.
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: Him for him.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Now, some important facts, Professor, that are never going to
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: go away here. As you mentioned, he was a lawful
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: gun owner. He had a permit to carry, never drew
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: his weapon, never pointed it, never threatened anyone with it.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Video appears to show an officer removing the gun from
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Preddi's holster, and then someone yell's gun, and then the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: shooting starts, and he shot between six and ten times
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: by at least two officers. Apparently several of those are
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: in the back. It's going to be very interesting when
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: the autopsy comes out and they have to give his
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: body back to his family. And afterwards you can hear
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: the officer saying, where's the gun, where's the gun, like
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: nearly a minute after this poor man's been shot and
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: is motionless.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: So think about that.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: If the gun was justification for killing this man, they
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: didn't even know where it was after killing him.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: This was not.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Controlled force, This was not discipline. The NRA has spoken
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: out about this here and there in pockets, but generally
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: we've seen tons of our right wing friends who love
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Kyle Rittenhouse saying this guy should never have brought a
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: gun to a protest. First off, he wasn't at a protest.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: He was on the streets of America with his firearm.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And the liberals, Corey, the liberals are the ones standing
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: up for the First Amendment and the Second Amendment, both
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: of which were taken away from this man. So, I mean,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: what is the silence of these gun douchebags who've always
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: just praised Kyle Rittenhouse and just bring your gun everywhere,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: bring your gun the subway to buy a sandwich. I mean,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: what does this tell us about those whose rights they
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: actually defend. I think this moment exposes the myth that
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: gun absolutism, what we've gotten used to is about liberty.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Apparently it really is just about political alignment. As with
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: so much else with right wing fascist and country, laws
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: are to be used on the other guy, not for us.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: That's right, and it's why this really is an assault
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: on the rule of law. Because as much as the
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: NRA and other groups talk about gun rights, well, you know,
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: we can disagree with them about the extent to which
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: the Second Amendment protects an individual right.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: I actually don't think it protects one at all.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: I think it's clear from the text of the Second
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: Amendment that it's about the outdated and anachronistic institution of militias.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: But the reality is that this isn't about the Second.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Amendment, whether it's good or bad, or whether we should
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: have more protective gun laws. The laws on the books
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: protect exactly what he was doing, and we're seeing it
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: protest after protests, people armed who weren't killed, including in
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: state houses you mentioned Kyle Rittenhouse instances in which they
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: weren't murdered by ice agents or by police. So the
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: fact is that he was acting lawfully. There was nothing
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: about his possession of that gun that should have put
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: him in danger. And now the first people who should
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: have been speaking out about this, and the clearest possible voice,
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: are the NR are the defenders of the Second Amendment,
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: Because if you believe there's a Second Amendment right, this
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: is almost a paradigmatic case of it being violated. Him
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: being murdered for legally holding a gun on his person.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: He owned it legally, you know, he wasn't brandishing it
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: or using it in an illegal way. So not only,
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: as you say, were his First Amendment free speech rights
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: shut down, but like it or not, his Second Amendment rights.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: He was doing nothing illegal.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: And that's part of the tragedy here that we're seeing
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: the kind of fake defense of the constitution that you
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: often get for the right. I'm going to use a
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: phrase used to be said, this is one of the
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: worst moments of the sixties, that free speech for the
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: left not for the right. That's not a good way
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: to think about free speech. Free speech is the right
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: of all Americans, whether we agree with them or not.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: And that's got to be true too of the Second Amendment.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: We can't have Second Amendment for the right, not for
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: the left exactly.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: And again, wanting to have public safety regulations on who
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: gets the case firearms that were never intended for civilian
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: use does not mean you want to get rid of
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: our Second Amendment rights. The very fact that citizens aren't
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: allowed to own white phosphorus or tactical nukes shows we
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: already accept some limitations on our Second Amendment rights. I'm
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: not against concealed carry and permits. I'm against civilians having
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: AR fifteens and high capacity magazines and a crummy system
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: of background checks. But I want to bring it back
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: to this administration because they lied that he attacked the officers,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: that he brandished a gun. I think it was Bovino
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: who said he arrived intending to massacre law enforcement. The
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: cops fired defensive shots. It's all rationales for these folks
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: to say he deserved to be murdered with no trial,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: having neverly drawn his legally purchased firearm. Kyle Rittenhouse brought
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: an AR fifteen he wasn't legally old enough to purchase
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: yet to a protest kill people, but they were people
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: the right also think deserved violent death. So it's okay,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: just as this is okay because the right things Alex
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Preddy deserved violent death.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, it looks bizarre if you think of
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: it as one off, but if you think of it
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: in the wider context, which is an assault on free
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: speech itself, an assault on the rule of law, it
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: makes perfect sense. Because really, and you're hearing this from
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: I just heard Megan Kelly, another right wing commentators saying, well,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: if he didn't want to be murdered, he shouldn't have
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: been at a protest. What the right to protest is
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: our First Amendment right, It's the core of the constitution
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: to object to the government. The Declaration of Independence, are
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: founding one of our founding documents is about the right
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: to protest, the First Amendment, right to free speech, to
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: petition the government, to assemble. All of that is the
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: core to what American democracy is. And now we have
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: commentators saying stay home if you don't want to be murdered.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: And that's why the American people are fighting back in
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: such a strong way rather than backing down or being scared.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: We've seen the emergence. I think of the Democrat fire
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: that we use right constitution.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's not just democratic Cory. This is this is
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: bigger than a political dodgeball team. This is for independence.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: This is for responsible conservatives, I mean the coalition, the beautiful.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Multi racial right.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, right on.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Well, in that case, can I just say this was
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: not an isolated incident. There's there's been five federal shootings
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: during these operations in January, at least six immigrants are
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: dead in federal detention this month alone, including Heraldo Luna's
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: compos who was murdered in El Paso. At first the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: government said that he just died of natural causes, then
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: they said it was suicide, and now the autopsy's revealed
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: it was homicide, which is what his cellmates say. They
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: are murdering people on our tax dollar. And again, three
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: thousand agents deployed to Minnesota for what does the stupid
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: think Operation Metro Surge. That's more agents than the combined
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: force of the ten largest Twin cities police departments. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I think, Professor, that Alex Pretti's greatest mistake was touching
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: the officer. He did it gently. He had one hand
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: and raised saying it's okay, dude, saying he was trying
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: to reassure him. He's protecting someone on the ground, saying
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: it's okay. He did it in the most non aggressive,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: de escalatory way possible.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Corey.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: It should have burned him some space, but that's it
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: earned him death. It seems that it was putting his
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: hand on this ice agent, completely, non violently, completely gently,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: that sealed his fate. That was all the excuse a
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: man who wants to kill. Someone needs to kill someone
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: when he has a badge. I want to ask you
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: what makes this killing qualitatively different from even other cases
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: of police violence that we've seen. How do you separate
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: this from besides the fact that it was a white guy,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: how do you separate this from the other police killings
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: we've seen.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: Well, I think in most police departments, first of all,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: the police are not mass We know instantly who did it.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Instantly, there's accountability.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Even if there's a problem within the ranks or in
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: the culture of a particular police department, there's going to
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: be an investigation, not just internally from the police department itself,
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: but from the district attorney to hold these people to account. So,
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: in some of the most brutal instances of police killing,
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: as terrible as they are, the law is there, and
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: what's happening here is the opposite that the federal government
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: ICE is obstructing the investigators from even coming onto the
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: scene yor trying to block investigators from finding out what happened.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: They will certainly try very hard to keep charges from
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: being filed, although absolutely I think charges here in the
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: case of this killing need to be filed unless we're missing.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Something that's not obvious.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: From everything that we've seen, it looks like this is
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: a case in which there should be an indictment for murder. Right,
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: And now you know that's what's different here that we
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: have not a police force.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't call it that.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: We have force that's ostensibly supposedly going after dangerous undocumented people,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: but what it's really doing is stirring up protests, acting
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: in a way that's going to make people angry, and
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: then using it as a chance to clamp down on
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: political opponent's political enemies descent. And that's not what a
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: normal police force is doing.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I should take a moment to commend the Minneapolis
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Saint Paul Police departments because they have shown extraordinary restraint.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: This is the same department that made history when a
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: commissioner testified against one of his own policemen for murdering
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: a citizen, and that would be Derek Choubin after the
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: murder of George Floyd. So, I mean, we already have
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: the Minneapolis Police Department in a very special place in
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: terms of justice and progress. And kudos to the Minneapolis
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: local media as well for being incredible and responsible on
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: all this. But we learned last night that Greg Bavino,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: America's shortest Nazi, is not being fired or demoted. They're
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: moving them around. They're cycling some of these guys out
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: of there, and they're moving Greg Bavino around.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Like a predator.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Priest Corey, we've discussed Trump hires these idiots because they
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: won't tell him he's.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Breaking the law.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Right, the idiotcy hires like the cash Betels and the
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Christy Nomes and the Pete Hegsess, they won't tell any
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: he's breaking the law. So that means when he gets
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: in trouble for something the idiots don't know. They're also
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: going to be the fall guys. So Bavino says he's
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: going to retire. Now we still don't know the name
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: of the shooters. At what point does secrecy itself become
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: a form of injustice, Professor? If ordinary citizens obstructed a
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: homicide investigation like we're seeing here, they're not letting the
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: local cops investigate any of this. If ordinary citizens obstructed
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: a homicide investigation the way the Feds are doing here,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: what would happen to those citizens?
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no question that you'd be guilty of a crime
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: of obstruction of justice. But unfortunately there are legal resources,
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: including qualified immunity, that are going to be used to
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: try to block this investigation and block the law from
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: being carried out.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: There are obvious remedies. Congress could fix this tomorrow.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: It could have a law that strips ICE agents of
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: qualified immunity. We need that local prosecutors, I think, have
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: to pursue these charges, even though of course there'll be
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: legal objections.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: They might prevail, and I should say too.
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: The other hope that I have is there's a lawsuit
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: that's challenging not just individual actions by ICE, but they're
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: entitlement to be there.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: What are they doing there? That argument that I gave you.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: That suggests that they're supposedly cracking down on undocumented people
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: who have also committed violent crimes just doesn't ring true.
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: So under our tenth Amendment, we've talked about this, it's
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: local government, state government, and cities that are in charge
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: of basic policing, and the federal government has no generalized
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: police power. So I'm hopeful about that argument. I think
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: it's really important. It's before a judge who seems to
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: have a lot of integrity, and you know, in addition
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: to seeing justice done in this case, the most important
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: thing is that the illegal policy that has ICE there
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: in the first place be pushed back on.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: You know, before the break, I just want to ask,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I want to go deeper on this, but we're seeing
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: judge after judge across jurisdictions rebuke ICE for ignoring warrants
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and DOE process and just basic constitutional limits. What is
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: this pattern, coreory of repeated rebukes by different judges tell
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: us about the agency itself?
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: Well, I think that, you know, That's why this overall
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: argument that the whole presence.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Of ICE in Minnesota is illegal is.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: So important because what's frustrating, I'm sure for the judges
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: on the bench is as they see case after case,
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: and by the way, ICE is losing almost all these
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: cases within the district court, is that there's obviously a
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: systematic abuse of democratic and constitutional.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Rights happening by ICE.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: And one of the problems here too, we've talked about
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: how in the birthright citizenship case, the ability of district
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: court judges to issue universal injunctions to stop ICE period
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: from acting illegally, how that has largely been stripped away,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: and unfortunately that is coinciding with a massive attack by
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: this rogue agency on our rights, including our right to
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: actually be alive.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: So courts, I think are in a frustrating moment where
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: they're pushing back, pushing back, But each of these individual
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: things doesn't do what we really need to do, which
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: is stop ICE universally throughout the country from its constitutional abuses.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Well, when we come back, I want to talk about
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: the DOJ interference into the case, how they try to
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: shut down a civil rights investigation for Renee Good and
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: are doing the same thing right here, and also talk
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: about what's the opposition going to do. There is now
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: talks about defunding ICE and maybe another government shutdown. So
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you a bit about the power
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the purse. We will be right back on the Oath
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and the Office.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Hey, y'all play Kurshner here.
• 22:34
  Speaker 6: Friends, I hope you'll join me on my audio podcast,
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: Justice Matters. We talk about not only the legal issues
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: of the day, but we also talk about the need
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: to reform ethics in our government.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Here's one example.
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: The oath of office, you know, the one I do
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies,
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: foreign end domestic. Let's add twenty two words to that
• 22:59
  Speaker 6: oath quote, and I will promptly report any instances of
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: crime and or corruption by government officials and employees of
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: which I've become aware. Friends, our democracy is worth fighting for.
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: Join us in this fight, because justice matters. Look for
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: justice matters wherever you ordinarily find your podcasts.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the oath in the office, I'm John
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Feugel saying, you know, Corey, the Second Amendment does not
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: say the right of the people to keep in bare
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: arms unless federal agents get nervous. And the Fourth Amendment
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: does not permit execution for possession, and the Fourteenth Amendment
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: does not allow an equal application of rights based on
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: political convenience. I learned all that from you. So is
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: it fair to say that ICE is operating less like
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: a law enforcement body more like an executive enforcement arm
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: that is seemingly untethered by what we call laws.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, no question.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: And I'd go even further that it really is a force,
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: a government agency that is devoted to the shutdown of democracy.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: And if that sounds like an exaggeration, we don't have
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: to only look at the two cases that we've talked
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: about in the last segment in depth, including the claims
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: afterwards that the fact that this protester had a legal
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: gun was one of the basis for what they were
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: doing in total disregard for the First and Second Amendment.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: We've talked about that, but the Fourth Amendment, which you mentioned,
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: which protects us in our homes against unreasonable search and seizure.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: You know, one of the main things that the Constitution
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: is about, after the tyranny of the British system of
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: disregarding people's the integrity of their homes and providing for
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: a judicial warrant. And I'm going to say more about
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: that as necessary to enter the home after showing in court.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: And I'm using these emphasizing these.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: Words like court and judicial warrant purposely because that's really
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: the system that we have, these external checks that are
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: guaranteed in the Constitution. Now, if you listen to the
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: Vice President, maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but you know,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: if you listen to him defend what's going on, he says, well,
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: we have different kinds of warrants, we have administrative Well
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: that's just a trick. I mean, he's really trying to say, well,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: Ice can give itself a warrant. The administration, the executive branch,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: which is what they mean by administrative, can give itself
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: a warrant, and we don't need these judicial warrants. That's
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: nothing less than the destruction of the Constitution and the
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: total disregard of it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Boy, that's going to really ruin all the respect I've
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: built up for jd Vance. You know, lawyers for the
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: state of Minnesota are arguing that this sole surge violates
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: the Tenth Amendment, which protects states from encroachment by the
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: federal government. I learned that from my conservative friends years ago,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and then that provision has been held both to stop
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: the Feds from commandeering local officials and from using coercion
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: to force the state to comply with federal demands. Which
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: is really interesting now that we've heard that Pam Bondy
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: stupidly sent a letter to Tim Walls saying more or
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: less a quid pro quo, that we will withdraw our
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: forces from your state if you give us control of
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: your voter roles. I mean the names of public information,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: but the actual that's how you rig an election so seemingly,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: and if Pam Bondy was a smart fascist, she would
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: have just sent an aid to verbally convey this to
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: a Wall's aid. But being stupid and presumably thinking there
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: will never be any consequences to her for any of
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: this because she enjoys full immunity, she put it in writing.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: So I mean we've got it in paper. We know
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: that they're violating the tenth Commandment using coercion to date
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: comply with federal demands, right, and we.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Also it's a great slip but you said commandment.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Oh sorry, well there, I'm always talking tabernacles. But on
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: top of this, we also know that the senior DOJ
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: officials tried to shut down a rights investigation into the
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: killing of Renee Good last week because normally, when a
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: cop murders a citizen, you always have the DOJ Civil
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Rights Division, and in this case, the guy said effing bitch,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: So it indicates bias, and they wouldn't allow the division
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: to investigate, just like they won't allow local police to investigate.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I mean it's a cover up. And isn't this the
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: definition of weaponizing the justice system. I mean they're smearing
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: the victim to put off an investigation.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean to launch on the theme they don't
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: know that they're doing this, but they are inadvertently giving
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: us evidence after evidence of their illegal attempt to shut
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: down our basic liberties and to undermine our constitution. Tying
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: together the question you asked now from our previous exchange.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: The reason I know that they're trying to subvert the
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: Fourth Amendment is because they put it in a memo
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: that says, you know, you don't need a judicial warrant anymore,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: even though I said always relied on jujdicial wars before
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: barging into people's houses. Now there's a memo that says, no,
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: you only need this administrative war. In other words, you
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: need us to tell ourselves that you can use to
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: tell ourselves so that we could and the administration to
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: tell ourselves that we can bust into people's houses for
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: whatever reason we want. That is a destruction of democracy.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: The other thing that we're seeing, and you brought this
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: out too in the demands to hand over all sorts
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: of information so that the administration can I'm sure do
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: lots of evil with it. You know what is that about.
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: It's a kind of coercion of the states. And you know,
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: I want to go back to this principle that we've
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: brought out because the Tenth amendmental though it has a
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: terrible history of being used to subvert civil rights in
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: the mid twentieth century, right now it is one of
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: our best tools for fighting back against an evil and yes,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: fascistic federal government. What it says is, and I really
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: want to emphasize this, this isn't controversial for liberals or conservatives.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: It's basic constitutional law. What it says is it makes
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: clear that our system is one of what's known as
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: dual sovereignty. The federal government has certain limited powers granted
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: to it by the Constitution, and what the Tenth Amendment
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: says is those powers that aren't given to the federal
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: government are reserved to the states.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: What is the bottom line of that that when it
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: comes to.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: Policing and more generally, the police powers to ensure the health, safety,
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: and morals of a population.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: That's the legal terminology.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: There is no general power of the federal government, no
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: general police power.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: They're local powers.
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: And what you see BONDI trying to do is through coercion,
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: say well, give us what we want, or we're going
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: to invade your state. We're going to disregard to the
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Tenth Amendment disregard local sovereignty. And one of the best
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: chances that we have right now is a case that
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: deals with not just the individual tactics of ICE, but
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: the overall violation of the Tenth Amendment. That's in federal
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: court right now, and that's one of the cases.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: We don't have a ruling on it yet. They had
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: a hearing very.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: Recently, a few days from when you'll be hearing this,
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: and I'm hopeful that they're going to see. You know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: this is exactly what the framers feared, not just the
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: break in of Howses the Fourth Amendment point, but the
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: subversion of the Tenth Amendment, the idea that leasing is local,
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: not national.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean this.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: They're turning state violence into political leverage, right. That's the escalation.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Federal violence is no longer just coercive now, it's transactional.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: ICE is not just being deployed based on public safety needs.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: We know they're turning it on and off like a
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: bargaining chip to pry loose a state election infrastructure. So
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: once you have the voter rolls, you know which voters
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: to challenge, which registrations to purge, which ballots to throw out,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: which districts to throw into bogus investigations. I mean, I
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: gotta say, the judges in these Minnesota ICE hearings, it
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: seems to me as a labor as a professor, they've
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: been unusually blunt, and some of them are openly furious.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, when judges speak this way, what is that
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: signal to you? Institutionally? Is a bunch of anker rejudges
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: a sign of courts failing or is it a sign
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: of the judicial branch doing its job?
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: I think that's a brilliant question, and it goes to
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: the heart of what's happening. I think at the same time,
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: two things are happening. The constitutional violations are so many,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: and again and again ICE is being called out for
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: its illegal behavior that judges.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Have had enough.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: And these aren't hard cases, I should say, you know,
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: saying that you can enter a house without a judicial
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: warrant not a hard case, I think too. Deploying ICE,
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: you know, with a subterfuge of trying to arrest undocumented
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: people who are violent, when what you're really doing is
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: trying to shut down protests, violation not just of the
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: Tenth Amendment, but of course of the First Amendment, right
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: to free speech, right to assembly.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: That all of that is so obviously constitutional. That's why
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: you're getting these screaming voices.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: But at the same time, it's a frustration because there
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: is no longer the ability of federal district court judges
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: to institute these universal injunctions. And that's part of the
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: frustration too that you're seeing. So you're seeing a strength
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: and standing up to unconstitutional behavior by Ice in the administration,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: but you're also seeing a frustration in the fact that
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: they're being bombarded and that they lack a lot of
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: the tools that they had until recently to fight back
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: against it.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: So in that case, then the DOJ is filing these
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: criminal complaints against seven of the protesters who went inside
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the Saint Paul church last weekend. I know this seems
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: like a thousand years ago, but I loved this protest.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: They weren't mean, they didn't break anything. They went in
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: and did what Christ did. They flipped tables in the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: place of worship because of injustice. Because this pastor in
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: the church it was also an ICE official. And you know,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: both God and Jesus are pretty thorough about welcoming the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: stranger and so they had a non violent protest inside
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a church and this was outrageous. Not the dead bodies
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: of Americans, but this, so they filed criminal complaints against
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: seven of these protesters. They tried to charge Don Lemon
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: for filming it, but the magistrate judge refused to sign
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the warrant against him. This shows how scared they are,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: I think, Professor and as well as Pambondi's memo being public,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, this sort of just says nothing but fear
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: to me and authoritarianism that they think is going to
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: be a lot more popular.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Than it really is.
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the examples are just so numerous of
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: the instances in which they're shutting down protests. We've been
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: focusing on the protests in Minnesota against ice, but even
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: this protest in the church. They're abusing this nineteenth century
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: law that basically that's meant to protect civil rights and
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: to protect against violent incursions in churches that will shut
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: down religious freedom. But the way that statute has to
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: be understood is as consistent with the First Amendment, and
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: so the right to protest. And in this story, one
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: of the leaders of the church in question was supposedly
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: working for Ice, and so it was an anti ICE
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: protest in the church. You know, that's an abuse to
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: use a statute that's meant to protect civil rights in
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: order to shut down one of the main civil liberties,
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: which is free speech. And just to show you that
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: this is what they're doing now, they tried to charge.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: A journalist, Don Lemon.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: It didn't work, but you know that's what's going on
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: here too when it comes to the less famous people
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: who are trying to protest.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: So then this leaked memo that you mentioned that reportedly
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: direct SISE agents to enter private property regardless of legal
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: standing or warrants. I mean, it's just open constitutional defiance, right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, at what point does obeying an order like
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: that expose agents themselves to criminal liability because again these
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: are state charges. Trump won't be in power forever and
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: there's no statute of limitations on killing people.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: Well, it's just you know, the overall attempt to shut
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: down our civil liberties is being documented, and what this
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: leak memo shows is that and you know, I'll elaborate.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: For the amendment couldn't be more clear.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: You have a right to be free from government just
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: walking into your house, Willy nilly for any reason.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Now, what's the check on that.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: It's the judiciary, and the judiciary has to be shown
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: evidence that there is a re to search your house.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: There's reasonable search and seizure. Now, once you get rid
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: of that, what's left it's the government giving orders to itself.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: I'll tie this to my theme of the self coup. Remember,
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: the definition of a self coup is the administration, the
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: executive branch, destroying the other branches by aggrandizing itself. This
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: one memo strikes me as the ICE memo an example
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: of doing just that. And you're claiming, okay, well now
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: our lawyers have looked at this and said, you know, yeah,
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: you can enter houses. Their lawyers have said get rid
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: of the Fourth Amendment. How frightening.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: So, Corey, before we hit a break, I want to
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: ask you this. Defunding ICE used to sound really radical,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: and I've been telling people who call the Serious XM Show,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: this is just like abolish the police. It's something the
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: left does so Democrats have a chance to show how
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: moderate they are. I mean, abolish the police was a
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: gift to Joe Biden's campaign because it allowed him to say.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Folks, I'm not like Donald Trump. But I'm not like
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: those far.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is what Democrats, even the ones I like,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: always do, right. But now, after everything we've seen, dead civilians,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: naked stupid lies, destroyed evidence, judicial rebukes, why does it
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: feel like it's almost inevitable? I mean, constitutionally speaking, is
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: the power of the purse Congress's only remaining check on
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: a lawless executive.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: I would say the difference between abolish the police and
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: abolish ICE is that ICE is not a police force.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: It lacks any of the basic training the standards that
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: are used to protect civil liberties in policing, to protect,
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: after all, are not just our.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: Security but our liberty.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: Instead, what you have is a gang of thugs that
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: are murdering people in the streets, that are far from
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: respecting the right to protest, that are in the case
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: that we've been talking about at length, murdered somebody for
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: having a camera. And you know, even if they he
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: had a gun on him, again, it was a protected
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Second Amendment right that he.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Was not brandishing that gun. So there is.
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: No training, and by training, I'll be specific, meaning to
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: respect civil liberties in the way that you get in
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: police force. And that's systematic, and you see that in
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: places like the memo saying, you know, invade houses without
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: a judicial warrant clearly illegal. You see that in the
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: pattern of violence and abuse. So the Democratic Party has
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: to do something, and I would say, at minimum, the
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: limit on funding is one of the few places where they're.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: Able to push back.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: They need, because of a fillbuster, sixty votes to get
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: this funding through in the Senate, and that's a place
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: where the Democratic Party can finally start to stand up
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: for civil liberties. So I think they have no choice
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: when it comes to whether to abolishize.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: Or try to reform it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, there is something systematically wrong with
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: this agency, and this isn't going to happen, you know,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: unless the Democratic Party takes power. But I do think
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: that we have to look in depth at who these
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: people are. Let's just talk about who's been hired for
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: the fifty thousand dollars bonus. I said this before, but
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: I'll say it again online training. Really, So either massive
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: reform where yes, reconstituting under a different umbrella. Yeah, those
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: who are going to do the kind of enforcement that
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: ICE is rightly charged with doing.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, in that case, one more really quick question,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: because I know our guest is waiting. So the Democrats
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: now are saying, hey, we may allow a partial government
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: shutdown again unless Ice gets rained in now. Historically we've
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: talked on the show in the past about how this
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: kind of brinksmanship doesn't usually work out. But I don't
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: see how the Democrats cannot take a stand right now
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: with these bodies of dead citizens in the street. Is
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: a shutdown more dangerous than continuing to fund an agency
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: that openly defies courts?
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Well, government has proper functions. Its functions are to respect
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: the citizens' rights, to ensure for the public welfare.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: It's not doing that right now.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: It's engaged in an authoritarian exercise to try to destroy
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: civil liberties and destroy democracy. So the idea of shutting
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: down a government that's doing that, we're used to thinking
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: of the state as legitimate. Well, it's on the brink
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: of illegitimacy, and so I think, yes, shutting it down
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: seems like a smart place to start.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: At least there's some bargaining power.
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And at least it will limit that kind of
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: funding that there is now for this large scale abuse.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just please democrats use the Constitution, an outrage and
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: basic morality as leverage and ask for more than you'll
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: know you'll get for once.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, we got to take a break.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I'm very excited about our guest. When we come back,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: we'll talk all about January sixth, which has quite a
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: few non surprising links to what we're seeing in Minneapolis.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: This is the oath in the office.
• 39:34
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• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Oath and the Office. You know, Corey,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the five year anniversary of January sixth feels like it's
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: already five years ago, and yet these events are all
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: inextricably linked violence against citizens towards corrupt ends. It seems
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: to never go out of style. So I'm really excited
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and honored about today's guest.
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's my pleasure to introduced Tom Jocelyn, who was
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: one of the principal authors of the January sixth Report
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: and senior staff member of the January sixth Committee, which
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: did so much to uncover what really went on in
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: January sixth, and I'm looking forward to a deep dive
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: into what actually did happen, what the report showed, and
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: the details behind it.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Tom is a way of just jumping off.
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: And hello, thank you, Yes, welcome, Thanks, thanks for having me.
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: I really appreciate it's great to be with you.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Thank you great.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: And I should say too, Tom had me on his
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: Just Security podcast which was really a pleasure.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: So I'm looking forward to contry.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure as soon as I'm an Ivy League
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: law professor Hill at me on his show as well.
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: Tom I mean, I just have a first way just
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: to get you introduced to our listeners.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, tell us how you came to have this position.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: It's a sort of extraordinary role in history that you
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: were a senior staffer for the committee that uncovered what
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: happened and really wrote the official account of what happened,
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: including for the first time, I'm taught us about not
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: just the violence at the Capitol, but the widespread plot
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: to undermine the election.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: So how did this happen?
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: I asked myself that question a lot too. You know,
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: I have a very strange career story, very securitist route
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: to the Genero sixth Committee. You know, originally I went
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: to University Chicago. I graduated in three years. I said,
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: hopefully it don't offend you, Corey, but I don't want
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: to go back to academia at all. That's it for me.
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: I'm out. And I went into economics, became an economic consultant,
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: and I sort of was known for running these very
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: large research projects. I'm basically a research nerd who likes
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: to assimilate and accumulate a bunch of different data and
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: evidence and then figure out how to tell the story
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: from it. So I started doing that at a very
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: young age, and then eventually I migrated to after nine
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: to eleven, I started doing my own independent research on
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: extremism and terrorism. It built up my own career on
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: the side doing that type of work, and eventually became
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: an expert on counter terrorism counter extremism. Actually was the
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: chief counter terrorism advisor to Mayor Giuliani during his two
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: thousand and eight run. For a bit now, I would
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: just say about that. You know, I was working for
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: him when he was technically known as America's Mayor Rudy Giuliani,
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: not four seasons total landscaping Mayor Giuliani. So you gotta
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: forget me. You got to forgive me for that one.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Many many crates of Chardonnay before many many crates of shard.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: So I built up that career and I came to
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: know a lot of people on the Hill because I
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: testified a ton of times for the Senate. In the House,
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: I testified I think more than two dozen times on
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: different foreign policy, counter extremism, characterrorism issues. And I came
• 43:33
  Speaker 5: to know Liz Cheney well, and she introduced me to
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: other people on the staff and was basically this is
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: the nerd that she wanted to hire to help, you know,
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: put the report together, and so that's what I did.
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: I was you know, I've always been considered myself an
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: American who's very loyal to the Constitution, and I saw
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: January sixth and the months preceding it as a dire
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: threat to our constitutional order. And you know, I left
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: my job to go work for the committee, not because
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: I wanted to document what happened on January sixth, although
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: it may see that was my role, but really I
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: was afraid of what was going to come next. I
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: thought that if Trump and his movement got back in power,
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: they were going to start where they left off, which
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: was in a post constitutional moment, and that's exactly what's happened. Unfortunately.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of people see the kind of violence
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: of January sixth. I feel like the images in particular
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: of the officers being attacked both inside the Capitol and
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: at the barricades. You know, it's such a haunting image
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: that I think that violence is what people think of
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: as the danger. But of course, as the report shows,
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: and I'm going to ask you to just sort of
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: open up this part of it, it was so much
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: more than that. It was really an attack on democracy
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: itself and specifically an attempt and one that, in my view,
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: might have succeeded actually had a few things happened differently
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: to steal the election. And so can you talk to
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: us about that. How in your research, you know, you
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: came to uncover what really is a deep plot to
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: steal the election, with the legal theory behind it, all
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: sorts of ideas, seeing the vulnerability of the electoral college,
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: Like what was it about in the sense of how
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: was it supposed to work? Yeah, I mean, I think
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: the final report that the committee produced, which I had
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: a big hand in producing, although I wasn't alone, of course,
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: came out to eight hundred and forty five pages.
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: And I think that report could have been eight four
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: hundred and fifty pages easily in terms of just trying
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: to tell the entire the entirety of the story. And
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: the first thing that I would say is, you know,
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: and I said this very early on to people in
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: the committee, what worried me was that the political conspiracy,
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: the non violent part of the conspiracy to overturn the
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: election between election day and January six, to my mind,
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: was just as worrisome, if not more so than the
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: actual violence on January six, which came from the political conspiracy.
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: The political conspiracy gave us the violent, you know, insurrection
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: on January six. And what you see is you see
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: a president and his advisors between election Day twenty twenty
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: and January six, trying to figure out where there are
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: all these holes in our electoral college process that they
• 46:02
  Speaker 5: can exploit to stay in power. Right, that's what they're
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: trying to do. They're trying to find any lever they can,
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: and the entire process that they go through, everything they
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: try is a threat to the constitution, our constitution order.
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: It's not nothing they do other than they had some
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: valid court cases they could bring. Of course, they were
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: shot down in the courts, but they had the right
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: under the constitution to challenge the results in different states
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: in the court of law. They of course they lost
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: sixty one out of sixty two times or whatever the
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: number is. But everything else was clearly an assault on
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: the constitution order and trying to exploit this antiquated electoral
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: college system. That's what they were trying to do. And
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: so they were trying to twist the meaning of those
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: different steps all along the way in order to keep
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: Trump in power. And so just to give a couple
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: of examples of coming off if you want to ask
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: them a question about just give you a couple of
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: quick examples for listeners of what I mean by that. So,
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: the first thing is, under the constitution, states run our
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: federal elections, right, they have the constitutional authority to oversee
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: our elections. One of the biggest prongs of the political
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: conspiracy that Trump will or saw was dispatching his people,
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: including Rudy Giuliani again forgive me and others, to go
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: to the States and try to interfere with their process
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: to say no, no, no, no, no, no, you got it wrong.
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: Trump really won, and you need to overturn, you know,
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: go to these Republican led state legislators and say you
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: need to overturn the results because you know there was
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: you know, fraud that we can't prove, but believe us
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: it was there, and so therefore you need to hand
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: victory to Trump. And that would have disenfranchised millions upon
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: millions of voters and in fact more than eighty million
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: voters who voted for Joe Biden in that election, but
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: would have directly disfranchised the millions of millions of voters
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: in the states. That is a dire constitutional threat.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: What you have is you have a sitting president of
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: the United States who says he fires or sidelines his
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: previous legal team. He brings in what many people describe
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: as his clown car of lawyers to do what he
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: brings them in to try and validate the state's rights
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: and states constitutional power of elections, and disenfranchised millions of voters.
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: Now that's long before we even get to the violence
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: on January.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Six, see against voters go on, please.
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: Well exactly I mean to me, you know, as an
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: American who is you know, that's a fundamental right, right,
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: This is a fundamental right that he was assaulting and
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: his advisor were assaulting. And it showed they had absolutely
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: no respect for the will of the people or how
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: this process should be played out. And of course, the
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: thing about that moment is it fails.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: So to their credit anyway, Republicans leading state legislators in
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: the swing states, including in Georgia, in Arizona and elsewhere Michigan,
• 48:31
  Speaker 5: they say, no, we're not going to help you overturn
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: the election. You can't prove any fraud. You're not showing
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: us that the election was actually tainted. And all your
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: lies about dominion voting systems and all this other stuff,
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: none of that adds up to anything, right. It's just
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: all conspiratorial nonsense from from the web. So that hold
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: that part holds. Go ahead, Corty, you.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: Guys, I was gonna ask, I mean, and tell us
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: how they're related, because to my mind in reading the report,
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: but you know you wrote it. So I was saying
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: to John, you know, there's not a lot of moment
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: where you can say I have Marshall McLuhan right here.
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: You know, the famous line from any Hall. But this
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: is it the guy who actually wrote the thing. And
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: so I've read it. I see what you uncovered. And
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: one question I think that viewers will be interested in
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: is the complicated but important way that they saw the
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: role of the vice president. So on the one hand,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: you have this fake elector's scheme, and then that combines
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: with this reading, as I understand it, of the twelfth
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: Amendment that said that really Mike Pence was the one
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: who was going to get to decide what happened. So
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: I think that's a part that's not always understood, and
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: they have this sort of fake constitutional wave of reading
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: the twelfth Amendment that will give them that supposedly gives
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: the vice president that power. So talk about Pence and
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: his role in all of this, and also the setup
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: from people like John Eastman who argued that that really
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: he could what steal the election.
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, that's the next step in the political
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: part of the conspiracy, because after the state legislators turn
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: him down, what they do is they still convene these
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: fake electors in December mid December of twenty twenty to
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: meet and cast their votes on behalf of Trump these
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: electoral certificates. Now, what's interesting is so there are people
• 50:10
  Speaker 5: on the right throughout the MAGA world and the American
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: right who would claim that they were just doing what
• 50:15
  Speaker 5: had been done in the past, like in Hawaii in
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: nineteen sixty or the ninety sixty election in other instances
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: for the past right, that is complete fiction. In fact,
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: you can go to the report and we debunk that
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: in the report. This was nothing like those past circumstances.
• 50:28
  Speaker 5: There was no court order or court sanctioned reason for
• 50:32
  Speaker 5: these fake electors to meet. There was no process here
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: that they were upholding. It was deliberately intended to undermine
• 50:39
  Speaker 5: the actual electoral college process of the legitimate electors. And
• 50:42
  Speaker 5: we know that because actually the evidence that the Committee
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: and investigation uncovered, but also some of the evidents that
• 50:48
  Speaker 5: they hid from us. So there's a key memo from
• 50:51
  Speaker 5: Canada Chesbroo, an attorney that the Committee did not get,
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: which is dated I think December sixth of twenty twenty.
• 50:56
  Speaker 5: And if you read that memo, you see that he
• 50:58
  Speaker 5: knows and you can divine this from the other memos
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: he wrote that we did have. But you could see
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: from that memo that he knew as one of the
• 51:04
  Speaker 5: architects legal architects of all this, legal illegal architects of
• 51:08
  Speaker 5: all this, that in fact they knew that this was
• 51:10
  Speaker 5: not part of any kind of process in the past. Right.
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: This was all about gumming up the Joint Session of
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: Congress on January six. They wanted to find a way
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: to delay or deny Joe Biden's victory and the certification
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: with victory on Jenry six. And that's what the elect
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: these fake electors were all about. So the Pence part
• 51:25
  Speaker 5: of the conspiracy you're talking about is tied into all
• 51:28
  Speaker 5: this because the States reject this idea that they're going
• 51:31
  Speaker 5: to overturn the popular will. The Trump team keeps going
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: forward with this fake elector effort anyway, in order as
• 51:36
  Speaker 5: a gambit to tie up the Joint Session on January
• 51:39
  Speaker 5: six and deny Biden his victory. Right, Pence comes in
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: because they say to Pence, well, Pence, and this is
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: where John Eastman and others are arguing to him. As
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: you mentioned, you could do one of two things. One
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: you can either reject the legitimate electors outright, and this
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: is what Trump pushed for, and hand the election to
• 51:56
  Speaker 5: Trump on January sixth. So there was a gambit, and
• 51:58
  Speaker 5: you could see this even in what Trump was tweeting
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: at the time. There was a gambit to just outright
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: reject the lawful electors at hand the victory to Trump.
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: Or you could say, well, we have this uncertainty here
• 52:09
  Speaker 5: because we have two slates of electors and we need
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: to send the matter back to the States for an
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: investigation to tell us which one of the slates of
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: electors is legitimate. But you see, either Prong was trying
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: to get Vice president has to do something that he
• 52:23
  Speaker 5: and his team determined was unconstitutional, and he said that
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: very clearly at the time, and he said it very
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: clearly since then.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: You know, I know it's illegal, and I know it's
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: wrong and unconstitutional, but a part of me is always
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: going to wish Vice President Kamala Harris had seated some
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: alternate fake electors to hand the presidency over to herself,
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: just because our Republican friends would not be allowed to
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: complain if she did it.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Mister Jocelyn, I.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Think the through line that I keep seeing with the
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: news going on today back to January sixth, is the
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: same idea that loyalty to a leader is elevated above
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: loyalty to the constantue. And that's the real connecting thread
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: between what we've seen in Minneapolis and when we see
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: cops beaten on the Capitol steps for a lie. And
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: you've written so much about how that was a breaking
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: point that day, and it's so misunderstood. I've generally called
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: it terrorism because that meets the dictionary definition of using
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: violence against a government or civilian population to bring about
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: policy change. But I accept coup is probably better. And
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: yet our media keeps calling this a riot. And I
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: want to ask you about this or why is it
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: important for Americans to keep calling it a failed coup
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: attempt and not just call it a riot.
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, you could go to chapter eight of
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: the report and you can see how I described it,
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: because I described it as an organized or planned riot.
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: In other words, it was not something spontaneous, and in fact,
• 53:48
  Speaker 5: we debunked the idea of spontaneous. I mean, it was
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: a push. The whole The whole point was in terms
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: of on the ground. For example, the Proud Boys clearly
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: led the charge. They had a plan that day to
• 53:58
  Speaker 5: come in and run the capitol. They had a plan
• 54:01
  Speaker 5: to let these thousands of members of the mob that
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: Trumpet summoned to Washington. They wanted to clear a path
• 54:07
  Speaker 5: for them onto the Capitol's grounds and pointentially into the
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: capitol itself. And they were found guilty of this in
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: the court of law. They're found guilty of sitious conspiracy.
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: The leaders were and you know a few dozen Proud
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: Boys were convicted for their roles before being pardoned by
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump for doing this. Right and so we one
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: of the things the committee did, and there was great
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: reporting in the New York Times, well Street Journal elsewhere,
• 54:25
  Speaker 5: So we weren't alone in this but we did have
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: new footage and new details I think that people didn't have,
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: which is we showed how the Proud Boys did this.
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: At the point of attack, there's this place called the
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: Peace Circle. That is, you know, so Donald Trump holds
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: this rally south of the White House on the lawn
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: of what's known as the Ellipse, and of course he
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: tells everybody in the crowd that he's going to march
• 54:43
  Speaker 5: with them down to the Capitol, and ultimately he doesn't,
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: but he says he wants to, and he did want to,
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: but he doesn't. And then he and of course in
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: that of course that speech, he says all sorts of
• 54:51
  Speaker 5: incendiary things which we can dissect, but anyway, he sends
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: them down to the Capitol. When they leave the Ellipse,
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: they start marching in the Capitol. They're going to march
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: down Pennsylvania Avenue through this circle called the Peace Circle,
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: which sits right between Pennsylvania Avenue and the Capitol. The
• 55:06
  Speaker 5: Proud Boys and their associates what they did was they
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: cleared a path at the Peace Circle for this stream
• 55:11
  Speaker 5: of mob, the mob that was gonna come down Pennsylvania Avenue.
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: They cleared out there was a there's a minimal security
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: presence there of Capitol police officers. They overran them very quickly,
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: and they basically created a path for this whole stream
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: of thousands of thousand people to get on the Capitol grounds.
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: And that was a deliberate thing they did. They had,
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: they had a plan of mind. It wasn't some sophisticated
• 55:30
  Speaker 5: nine to eleven style terrorist attack, but it was they
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: you know, deserve more credits somebody who studied terrorism and
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: extremism for twenty years, twenty five years now, it's more.
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: It was a clever it was a more clever strategy
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: than they're given credit for. And it worked. It did work.
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: I mean they did delay for the first time our
• 55:45
  Speaker 5: nation's history, the peaceful transfer of power.
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: Tom.
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: You know, this is such a complicated plot, and I
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: think we're doing a very nice job of getting it
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: all out. You have the planned riot part of it,
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: which looks spontaneous or it's been described by Trump of
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: course as a pro test. We know it was not
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: a protest, that it was a planned riyah. You have
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: the fake elector's scheme, which is very complicated. You have
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: the role of the vice president and all of this,
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: you know, designed to, as you said in the beginning,
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: quite well, to exploit the vulnerability of the antiquated electoral college,
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: which requires this joint session of Congress and the approval
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: of electoral votes as sort of all these technicalities that
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: lead to the election of a president that we rely on.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: And they were spotting each of these vulnerabilities and trying
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: to exploit them, and it is a vulnerable system, as
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: you said in the beginning. One big question that I
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: have that I've been dying to ask you is how
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: did you piece all of this together as you were
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: working for the report. You know, you know you're a researcher,
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: but I'm fascinated to hear this because you know, I
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: can talk to our listeners and to others about what
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: happened as a result of your research.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: But I want to know how did you do this work?
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: How did you piece it all together?
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean, of course I wasn't alone. I mean
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: there was a big thing people that I was not
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: the only one doing this by a long shot. See
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: the committee's work in the hearings, which I contributed to
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: as well. You know, all throughout the summer of twenty
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: twenty two and then you know, all the way through
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: the port. So there was a big team of people
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: doing this work and working on this stuff. But you know,
• 57:11
  Speaker 5: I to me, to my mind, this always fit the
• 57:15
  Speaker 5: spoken wheel model of the conspiracy. So you have all
• 57:17
  Speaker 5: these different spokes on the wheel to make the wheel
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: go round. Yeah, and basically they were you know, Trump
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: was overseeing all these different spokes. He's the center of
• 57:26
  Speaker 5: the conspiracy, and he has all these different spokes to
• 57:28
  Speaker 5: make the wheel go around. And it's really January sixth,
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: the violence and the summoning the mob on the night
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: of December nineteenth to January sixth in Washington, and the
• 57:35
  Speaker 5: dispatching the mob down to Congress, and they'll say, we're
• 57:38
  Speaker 5: about on one second. That's really the final spoke of
• 57:41
  Speaker 5: the conspiracy to put in place to make the wheel
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: go around. Now here's the thing about that, right, So
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: just put aside the violence for a second, because you
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: brought up Corey a couple times of the violence how
• 57:50
  Speaker 5: offul it was, and it was. And more of one
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: hundred and fifty officers were assaulted that day, many of
• 57:55
  Speaker 5: whom were seriously injured, one of whom passed away the
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: following day. Some of whom committed suicide. In the aftermath
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: and the trauma of the whole event, some of them
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: suffered some very serious injuries. But what I ask you
• 58:07
  Speaker 5: to do is just put put aside that violence for
• 58:09
  Speaker 5: just one second, and whether or not Trump knew what
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: was coming in terms of the violence or not, just
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: put that aside as a question in your mind. He
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: had no legitimate reason to send a mob down to
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: the Capitol on January sixth to impede the counting of
• 58:23
  Speaker 5: the Electoral College votes. He had no legitimate reason for
• 58:26
  Speaker 5: doing that. This is a fundamentally unconstitutional act. Whether he
• 58:29
  Speaker 5: knew the mob was gonna get violent or not, he
• 58:31
  Speaker 5: clearly wanted them to pressure Vice President pens because he
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: told him so to not count the votes. Right to not.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: But he's still allowed to. Citizens can still petition the
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: government for address of grievances. A protest a non violent
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: protest itself, while pointless in this case because he couldn't
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: undo it, that's still technically legal, right.
• 58:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's still legal and protest, sure, But my point
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: is if you actually look, it's and he did call
• 58:54
  Speaker 5: protests and he could have stipted there. But my point
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: is that the actual reason he wanted them to protesting,
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: that he was calling them to protest was to pressure
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: Pence into an unconstitutional action.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 59:06
  Speaker 5: Yes, that's where that's where it's different.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: It's not just saying, hey, go down to the Capitol
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: and protest the election because I think it was fraud
• 59:13
  Speaker 5: and was stolen. It was no, go down to the
• 59:15
  Speaker 5: Capitol and try and convince my vice president to not
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: certify the vote. See that's where even that part of
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: it crosses the line.
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: Right, and also in the context time of what you've said,
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: which is the scheme, the elector's scheme at the state level,
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: the role of the vice president, this fake claim that
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: the vice president can really make the decision of whether
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: which is supposed to be. Just to clarify for listeners,
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: the role of the vice president under the twelfth Amendment
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: is purely formal, and as a result of Tom's work
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: and others, that's now clarified thankfully in the Electoral count
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: Reform Act.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: But they didn't care.
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: They were trying to use this fake argument in order
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: to really destroy our election.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: So it's all of this that you put Togeah.
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: Just on John's point about protests, right, keep in mind too,
• 59:58
  Speaker 5: that the vast majority of people who attended the quote
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 5: unquote protests in Washington Jerry six were not charged with crimes, right, correct,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: They were not. They were not There was no legal
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 5: they were not charged of doing something illegal.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: It was only a very small subset of those, right fact.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: In fact, not even And here's here's the sticking point
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 5: that MAGA tries to cover up. Most of the people
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 5: who went on the Capitol's grounds illegally, right into restricted areas.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: Most of those people weren't charged, correct, Yeah, so it
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 5: was it was really a small subset of about fifteen
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: to sixteen hundred people at the day of the thousands
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: and thousands more who were actually charged with committing crimes.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 5: And that part of it has been obscured by MAGIL,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: which likes.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: The it's a very important point.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Well, they want to say, oh, well, the Feds just
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: locked up people who walked into the Capitol after the
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: doors were open and police said they could come in,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: and these were complete Whenever your right wing troll says
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: this to you, please ask them give me the name
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: of one specific person who just entered the building, broke
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: no laws and was put in jail. Give me that
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: person's name. Can I ask you about Mike Pence. I
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: love your whole metaph for the spokes and the wheel.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: I've always been calling them cogs, and I now realized
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: I mistooled them. They are spokes more than cogs. But
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: Mike Pence's recent comments, you know, show he understood the
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: stakes and he ultimately refused to break the constitution. How
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: low is the bar that that now qualifies as moral courage?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: It kind of feels like our constitutional democracy is so
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: fragile that maybe it depends more on individual character than law.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I can say a couple things about that.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 5: I totally agree. I mean, first of all, it is
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: a very low bar, right, I mean, it's ridiculous. This
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 5: was a ridiculous scheme that they were trying.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: To I mean, I'm praising Mike Pence.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: Good lord, Yeah, I mean so am I And I
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: actually met with Mike Pence in the situation room with
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: the White House in twenty eighteen. Actually, so yeah, I'm
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: in his staff one time. And I'm not a Mike
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 5: Pence stand or anything like that, but you know, I
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: mean it was I was laughing though, because I remember
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 5: Pence talking about how the Jerry sixth Committee was criticizing
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: at the time for being political and this and and
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 5: I'm sitting there as the research nerd who's working on
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 5: this thing, thinking, my man, uh, you know, we're holding
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: up your decision. We're saying your decision was the right one.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 5: And a lot of the report, a good chunk a
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 5: chapter of the report is based on the testimony of
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 5: your people, right who helped you go through this whole
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: process of trying to fight off this stuff and the
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 5: idea and you wouldn't come, you know, TESTI five for us,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 5: mister Pence. But the idea that you know the report
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 5: is somehow, you know, been tainted by politics when it's
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: actually upholding Mike Pence against Trump's assault, It's really ludicrous
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 5: to me, you know. So I do praise Pence for
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 5: a lot of his decisions. Sure, sure, by the same token,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: it is a low bar. And some of what he
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: said about the committee and some other things I felt
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 5: like just was like stupid politics. Like if he didn't
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: if he didn't know at that time that he wasn't
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 5: going to win over Maga, then I don't know why
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 5: he did that.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Well, because he thought he still had a chance to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: win over MAGA. I mean, he's more popular with liberals
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: now than conservatives because he followed the law this one time.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: It's just amazing.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, was there anything Tom he went through all of this?
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna ask one more process question, but like that
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: surprised you that you didn't expect, you know, kind of
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: moment and all of this, because I'm just trying to
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: imagine what it was like to look at this vast
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: amount of information. We knew about the violence. We knew
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: generally what happened, but you know the details of the report,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: as you said, which could have been ten times as long,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: are really incredible. So I'm wondering, you know, as he
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: went through, was there one moment where you're like, whoa,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: this is really I mean, what I would say is
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: that you know Trump has and this is I'd like
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: to hear John comment on this too, because I got
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: I've got one.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: That went to throw his way Trump. Trump has exploited
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: very skillfully a lot of currents in our society, and
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: he did so in the lead up to an on
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: January six. You know, one of which is you know,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: white nationalism and Christian nationalism, which I as a counter
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: streamism guy think of as like siblings, right, like they're basically,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: you know, fraternal twins. I would say, you know, not
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 5: quite not quite, not quite identical, but they look an
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: awful lot like, you know, and they're both right of
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: course for the most part, you know, so, but he
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 5: very carefully exploited that. I mean, you know. And one
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 5: of the things about doing this type of work is
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: such a short, condensed time period is you have to
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 5: focus on, you know, what made the wheel go around right,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 5: the force at the middle of it, the center of
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: the wheel, and all the spokes you can document. And
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: we definitely, you know, got a lot out about the
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: extremism aspect of it, and you can see that in
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 5: chapter six and eight, but there's always more to the story,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: including on the Christian nationalist aspect of it. I mean,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: you know, I I looked through, you know, all the
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 5: speeches on the night of January fifth, which were which
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 5: were riling up the crowd before Janey sixth, and they
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 5: were littered with Christian nationalist imagery, so many flags, so much,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 5: so much of it.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: And they're beating cops for a lie, they're waiving their Christian.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: Flag exactly, and you know, I mean, Alex Jones is
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: the guy who riled up the crowd the night before,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 5: and if you actually one of the things I think
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: Alex Jones is actually very misunderstood. He's in the report
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: in a number of places, but if you look at
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 5: his conspiracism, it's actually littered with Christian nationalism, oh always. Yeah.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: A lot of what he's actually selling is like like
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: the most conspiratorial version of Christian nationalism, I think, in
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: a lot of ways. And he evoked God the night
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: before Janary six and painted this as a religious battle,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: you know, And so you see them doing that throughout
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 5: the whole thing, you know, And I don't think that
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 5: that part of the story. We got into it somewhat
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: in the committee, but there was a lot more that
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 5: could have been done. I think we had more time,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 5: and it's a lot more that I'd like to do
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 5: writing about because something I've been studying is this christiannationalist aspect.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: I just wonder if you had any thoughts about that.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just published a book about it, and I'm
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: writing another book that I'm writing another book about it
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: right now. I mean Donald Trump won the hearts of evangelicals,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: not by promising to do a single thing Christ teaches
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: or commands in the gospels. He promised to get them
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: by putting them first, putting them above other groups, which
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: is the opposite of the humility that Jesus commands. He
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: pandered to them and said they were under siege and
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: played up the persecution narrative. That's how you get Christian
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: national lester fundamentalists or authoritarians, or I call them master
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: race Christians. You know, the ones who are so convinced
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: that not that they're better than you, that God thinks
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: they're better than you. Those folks, and they exist in
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: every religion, but in our country, they don't follow Jesus.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: They use Jesus, and they despise the actual teachings of
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: Jesus because those are woke, so they believe in what
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: they fight for, and what they fight for is not
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: anything Christ commands, because then they could never vote for Trump.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, on immigration alone, you got to welcome the stranger.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: They hate the actual teachings of Jesus. What they fight
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: for is conservative Christian control over society and government and culture.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: They don't care about religious freedom, they don't care about Jesus,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: they don't care about God or Satan. They don't care
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: about abortion, they don't care about immigration. Those things are
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: what gets them power. If they wanted to immigrate and
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: lawful border crossings to stop, they'd lock up the employers
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: and take down the help want it signed. They won't
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: do that. If they wanted abortion to stop, they fund
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: sex at and make birth control free, they won't do it.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: They don't want it to stop. They only care about power,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: and these things help them to that eventual end. And
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: that's why I as bleak as all this is and
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: zooming out from January sixth to ice in Minneapolis.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: I mean this.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Really coherent theory of power over law that has emerged.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: I just want to ask you, mister Jocelyn. I mean,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: you know this area better than anybody. What's giving you
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: hope right now? The courts, the public, the whistleblowers, something else.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: What's giving you hope in this moment?
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: Well, France, I just want to say one more thing.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: Abou Christi nationalism, please please?
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I am as someone who's a student
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: of American history in the Founding, I find it amazing
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 5: how much Christian nationalists lie about the Founding and how
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 5: much they portray the Founding as a fundamental Christian founding. Yeah,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 5: and if you actually go through the writings and rhetoric
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 5: of James Madison or Thomas Jefferson or Tom Payne, got
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 5: Tompayne especially right, Tom Payn's been my avatar on what
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 5: was Twitter since twenty fourteen, and that we can get
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 5: into that whole other thing another time. You know, there's
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: a whole sorts of examples, right, I mean the.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: Treaty of Tripoli, they wrote it down so many.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: Times it's clearly just false.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: But that to me is what that to me is
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 5: a commonality here is that their movement and their leader
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: right had no respect for the Constitution up to and
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 5: leading on January six, and it doesn't after the fact, right,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 5: And that seems to be a symbiotic relationship with them
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: because they don't seem to really understand where the Constitution
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 5: comes from or the Founding principles.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: You know, extremism and defensive liberty is not a vice, right,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: Like God, It's okay if I lie, because I'm doing
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: it all for God. This is this is why people
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: fly planes into build.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 5: Which was written by Harry jeff I think right for
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 5: Barry Goldwater that line. Yes, yes, yes, And Harry Jeffa
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: came from the Claremonts too, which is a Christian nationalist
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 5: institutionell with it.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 5: So the bottom line is like there's a commonality there.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 5: So now to your pointment what the hope is, Look,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 5: I think there's I think there's two fundamental competing systems here.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: One is like the maga monoculture right, which is wants
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: a certain type of person who thinks a certain way
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 5: and looks a certain type of way, with very much differences.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 5: And they are in the thrall of the authoritarian culture
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 5: personality around Donald Trump, and there's all sorts of contradictions
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 5: and mixed messaging there, but there's you know, it's not
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 5: it's not a cohesive logical a lot of times. Although
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 5: they do hate majority, they hate modern America, and they're
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 5: bound by their loyalty to Trump and things like that.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 5: But there's also this multicultural America right that I think
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 5: is still very much alive, and it's still very much
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 5: it's still very much in the fight, and that's what
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: I see myself as fighting for every day, Like I
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 5: want to live in the multicultural America, not not the
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 5: mega monoicultural hell, right, And and what you see in
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 5: Minneapolis is the multiculture fighting back, right. What you see
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: is people standing up. You know, We've had two white
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 5: people who were killed this month alone by federal agents,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 5: Renee Good and Alex pretty right, but they were both
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 5: They're both killed in the act of standing up for
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 5: the rights of people who are not white people predoun correct, correct,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 5: you know, and the spine populations who are who are
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: being assailed by the Stephen Miller's of the world and
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: their whole project, you know. And I think that that
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: says something about what the real tension is here. The
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: real conflict is between this magamonic culture that wants to impose,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: just like you were talking about with Christian nationalist John.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: They want to pose their will and their power on
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: the people and all the other people. And what you're
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 5: seeing is the hope of the people say no, you
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: don't get to oppose that here in Minneapolis. I don't
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 5: get to impose that elsewhere.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: Tom, We're almost out of time, but I really have
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: a question I want to ask you about rewriting history.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: You talked about the way that Christian nationalists have certainly
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: rewritten our constitution and John and I have that as
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: one of our large themes on the oath in the office.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: Of course, we have a First Amendment which bars not
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: only the establishment of religion, but laws respecting an establishment
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: of religion. If there's ever a greater rebuff to Christian nationalism,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: that's it. It's an explicit legal rebuff to it and
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: its entire ideology.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: Have a right to believe what you want or say
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: what you want.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: But our government at core is not Christian nationalists, or
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: Christian or any religion, and we have no established religion.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 4: But in the same way that that has been rewritten,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: so too is the story of January sixth. And that's
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: what I want to ask you about that. What does
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: it feel like? And as importantly or more importantly, how
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 4: can we ensure the truth of January sixth comes out
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: in the face of what you're seeing, which is the
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: rewriting of that story as a nonviolent protest and an
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: illegal attack on constitutional rights. That's how the Maga and
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: Trumps of the world are framing it.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: So I mean, just as a.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: Way, you know, listeners now I think have a very
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: strong understanding, if they didn't before, of what actually happened
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: in depth.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: That's what this amazing interview has given us.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: So how can we fight back against that attempt to
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: rewrite history?
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 5: Well, I think you and your listeners have a very
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 5: good understanding of that. I think there's a whole segment
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 5: of our population, tens of millions of people who don't write,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 5: who have been drinking it a well of disinformation and
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: lies for so long that they believe lies, you know,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 5: And I think I think you both understand students of history,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 5: and I consider myself a student of history, consider myself
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: a student of basically everything. You know that history is
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 5: always contestant, it's fought for, it's never just decided, right.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 5: It's not like you know, Corey, your excellent book on
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 5: the Constitution and your writings, right, you had to weigh
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 5: into a whole field where there's all sorts of different
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 5: competing views and competing ideas about what certain things mean
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 5: and what certain people believed, and what the text means
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 5: and that kind of thing. And there's definitely a common
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 5: agreement on some of it, but some of it is
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 5: still contested to this day. So the point is you
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: have to fight for that reality. You have to fight
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 5: for that truth in history and fight for facts. It's
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 5: not something you can give up on right and everybody
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 5: has to do it. It's a communal act of civil society
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 5: that the citizenry have to stand up for what the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 5: actual truth is, because otherwise you'll allow an authoritarian figure
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 5: like Donald Trump to rewrite history for all of us.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: Brilliant, what a great, great statement. Thank you so much,
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: Tom Joscelyn for joining us on the oath in the Office.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: This has been an in depth discussion, you know, from
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: the person who literally helped write the report that revealed
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: the conspiracy to steal this election, this attempted coup, and
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: we really thank you for joining us on the oath
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: in the Office. We hope you'll come back. Thank you
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 4: so much, No, thank you for having me.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you Tom Jocelyn, So professor. I mean, when we
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: zoom out from January sixth to ice in Minneapolis, it's
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: not really isolated abuses, is it. It seems like it's a
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: coherent theory of authoritarian power that is emerging.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: And if you think that's paranoid, that what Tom Jocelyn
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: gave us was a deep dive into the way in
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: which a coup almost happened in the United States. If
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: you listened to him talking about the vulnerability of our
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 4: system of the electoral college, the details with which it
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 4: was almost subverted, the way that these plans fit together,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: the role of the vice president being subverted, the role
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: of the state electors and fraudulent electors being sent to
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 4: the joint Session of Congress, and the violence of the
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 4: Proud Boys and others, the role as you brought out
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: from him in a great exchange of Christian nationalism. All
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: of that really showed that we almost lost our democracy
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: on January sixth. And these are the same people back
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: in power. So it's not a surprise that they're trying
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 4: to use the administration again to destroy our democracy, to
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: destroy civil liberties. And when you see them looking for
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: things like voter information in Minnesota, remember what they did
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 4: last time.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: It's the same people.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: Amazing discussion with Tom Joscely an amazing in depth discussion
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: of what's happening now.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: John, in our first half. What a pleasure to do
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: this with you.
• 1:14:17
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• 1:14:18
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• 1:14:20
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• 1:14:21
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• 1:14:22
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• 1:14:24
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• 1:14:27
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• 1:14:30
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• 1:14:35
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• 1:14:37
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• 1:14:41
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• 1:15:00
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