Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / "500 retailers reached out in the first 12 months!" with Wash Wild founder Belinda Everingham (Part 1)

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"500 retailers reached out in the first 12 months!" with Wash Wild founder Belinda Everingham (Part 1) · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

0:00
This is Belinda Everingham for Female Startup Club. Hello and welcome back to the show. It's Dune here, your host and hype girl. Today we're learning from Belinda Everingham, the founder of Bondi Wash and Bondi Wild. And there is so much to unpack in this episode.
0:28
We are talking through a decade of learnings from building multiple brands. We're talking fundraising, government support, international expansion, retail, advice for new founders and literally so much more.
0:43
But before we get into that juicy stuff, one quick ask from me. If you love the show and you get something out of it, please do honor the girl code and leave us a review wherever you're listening so other ears can find us too. You know I love it when you do that and I am so grateful in advance. Alrighty, let's jump in. This is Belinda for Female Startup Club. Belinda, hi. Welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast.
1:12
Thank you, June. It's really, really lovely to be here. Oh my gosh. It's so lovely to be here. And I didn't say this to you before, but I have been absolutely loving your products. I now have them in all my rooms around the house and loving them. Thank you so much. Yeah, no. And I love what you do.
1:31
I think it's just so important for female entrepreneurs to be supported more than they currently are. So I'm really happy to be here and I hope that some of the things we talk about might be helpful for others who are going through the same kind of challenges. Yes. Amen to that.
1:49
Where should we start? I feel like you have such a long journey. I want to get straight into it. I want to go back to, I know you kind of started Bondi Wash originally circa 2012, but I think your journey starts even before that, circa 2008. So where do you like to start your story? Do you know what? Let's go way back because I think some of your listeners are younger than I am. So I was reflecting on some of the questions that you sent to me.
2:17
And way, way back when I was in my mid-20s,
2:21
I had an idea to create a swimwear brand, which would be like more covered up. So longer sleeves and longer length. And so that was my first kind of like idea to create a business. I was in my mid twenties and I was just busy with other things I was studying. It just wasn't the right time, you know, personally. So nothing ever happened. So, you know, I think the entrepreneurial journey started a long way back and thinking about ideas, but, but then fast forward, if you like to
2:50
20. So that was in my mid-20s. And when I was in my early 40s, I was really getting tired of what I was doing. I was working as an independent consultant, so doing strategy consulting. So I was getting tired and I was kind of looking for other things to do. And I was in the kitchen and I sprayed spray and wipe on the bench and got a headache. And I thought,
3:12
wow, if it's doing that to me, what's it doing to the environment? I had little children and I thought that's not good. And at the same time, I was also trying to buy really nice quality hand washes and they were all selling out. So I kind of had this idea, maybe there's something...
3:28
you know, creating natural product, you know, more natural products that are not harming people and the environment. And I tried the supermarket natural ones and they either didn't work or they didn't smell good. And so that was kind of the beginning of the thought, if you like, but my kids were still quite little and I was still quite busy, you know, raising a family. And so it wasn't until about 2012, you're right, or maybe it was 2000, it was 2012 and I was on
3:56
And I was reading the book, Perfume by Patrick Susskind, which is all about one man's mission for the perfect scent. I know it's a beautiful book. It's not such a beautiful movie, but it's a beautiful book. I'm going to add it to my list. I'm a big reader. Yeah, it's a lovely book and it's set in Paris and grass. And I've been to both places and I love fragrance. And so I was really inspired by
4:22
grass where they have fields of lavender and roses. And I was up in Queensland and, you know, just as tourists, we're visiting fruit farms and rainforests and there were all these Australian native plants. And I thought, well, I wonder if we could create something in Australia like they have in grass. And that was kind of the moment when it all started and came together. I love those moments. It's like the profound moment where something in your brain shifts and you think, oh, I can do this.
4:52
Yeah. And you might not have been there yet, but then suddenly you're like, oh, this is so obvious. I can't believe I didn't already think that I was going to do this kind of thing. I know. I know. I know. It was one of those moments and it really sort of catapulted me, I guess, into buying. I came back to Sydney and I bought all these different native oils, many of which I actually hadn't heard of, but they were already extracting. So that thing was like, you know, different ones like eucalyptus peppermint and pepumet
5:19
lemon tea tree and Tasmanian pepper. Oh, beautiful. When you were in that kind of time period of, you know, kind of discovery and R&D and development and everything that kind of comes at that point,
5:36
How did you really get from idea to, you know, sample? Are you at this point making it yourself? Are you finding a manufacturer? Are you going and speaking to people about capital? What is that early kind of blueprint for you? Yeah.
5:51
Okay, that's a really good question. So in my head, I did my last consulting project and got $25,000 from that. So that was in my startup capital, if you like. With that money, I bought oils and ingredients and I thought if I'm actually going to do this, I need to know what's in it. So I started buying ingredients that I could find on the internet.
6:15
and I literally started on a kitchen bench and made hand washes, and I put together a bench spray, and at the same time as I was doing that, I was playing around with the fragrances. So literally, I just did internet research and decided, okay, top notes, middle notes, base notes, put them together, got everybody who came into the house pretty much to test fragrances. So people, I'm sure, got very tired of me, but... The beta group? Yeah, they were, they were. And then I put the scents into the product, so I did the same thing, and
6:44
That probably went on for about six to nine months of me playing around with the face formulations and playing around with the scents and bringing it together. And then I realized I needed help, you know, as much as I could go so far. I knew I didn't want to be manufacturing in my kitchen. So I found a manufacturer down in Melbourne who were able to sort of scale up and also took me on, which was kind of a gamble for them.
7:14
So, yeah. I often have people who are in that kind of early manufacturing stage where they're just getting started and they're trying to find the right partner to work with and kind of bring their vision to life. But it is a challenge because, as you said, they're taking a risk on you too. Do you have any advice for early stage founders who are kind of in that, you know, discovery phase with the manufacturer to kind of get a manufacturer over the line? Like what was it that got them interested in what you were doing and how did you kind of...
7:43
know that they were the people to work with.
7:46
That's a really good question. I guess I'd got a reasonable way on my own. You know, I had got some, my own kind of formulations, which were not perfect, but they were not bad. And I had sort of a little bit of a plan, a little bit of a business plan for where I wanted the business to go. So the combination of that, of those factors. But mind you, you know, they took me on, but I did still manufacture the first 750 bottles on my kitchen bench.
8:15
Oh, wow. I know. So they took me on, but what they did is they very kindly sent me, in some cases, the raw ingredients, and in some cases, they made like the base hand wash because that's harder to make in the kitchen. Got it. And I added the oils and, you know, so I literally made the... You had the formula. Yeah. So, you know, they took me on, but it was less of a gamble because they were supporting me in the early stage. And then by the time, you know, then I was ready to place a reasonable...
8:41
you know, order size. Yeah. So that's, that's, but I was, you know, they were very kind to me and we still work, I still work with them, you know, today. Oh, wow. That's amazing. So you have 750 units of products. You have used your capital to kind of like invest in the ingredients, invest in the products. I'm just wondering about like 2012, we're talking like
9:05
early social media, we're talking early Facebook. We're talking really early for direct to consumer and buying online in general. So it's not like you're putting that capital to, you know, website development probably even at that stage. So I did. Oh, you did. You did. Okay. There was probably five grand that went into the website, but that was after we'd launched. After you'd launched. Yeah. Because I'm wondering like for you, when you had that 750 units, what was your strategy to sell? What was your primary sales channel at that point?
9:34
Yeah. Okay. That's a really good question. And do you know, I really focused a lot on the product to start with. I just had this, not deliberately, I had kind of a vague business plan. You know, I was thinking I would sell through IGAs or health food stores and
9:52
but not a specific one. And then I just really focused on the product. Love that. Develop a good product and people will buy it. Yeah. Well, you know, I wasn't thinking that, but that's what I kind of obsessed over, the scents and the natural formulations and the packaging. And I really didn't cut any corners on that side of things. So the product ended up being more expensive than I originally planned and quite beautiful.
10:19
So what happened was my kids, bless them, who would have been teenagers back then, put me up on Instagram with, you know, the hashtag, the word Bondi Wash. And then I posted, you know, here are our first samples, a picture of them. And that got somehow shown to a girl who was starting this beautiful little boutique up the road. So she contacted me and said, we'd really love to launch with your products.
10:49
a lovely way to launch with this gorgeous, you know, very small but very beautiful, um, boutique. Um, and so that was, that was where we launched. And then I also reached out to Costco. So I had one and that helps having one. It's kind of all you need. Um, you can use that to leverage. You can. All of your outreach. Yeah. Yeah. And she had quite a, quite a profile on Instagram. She, you know, she was very, um,
11:14
designer, I guess. And then I also reached out to Koskela and they said yes. So those two were who we launched with, but they were kind of brand identifying because it wasn't the health food channel and it wasn't the IGA channel, but it was the beautiful boutique-y stores. So that kind of changed the direction, if you like, of the whole business plan. But it happened very organically.
11:40
Did that then lead you to kind of focusing on retail as a channel in those early years? Or were you still focusing kind of on direct-to-consumer in parallel with retail? Yeah.
11:52
So we started in those two locations and then pretty quickly got a lot of other retail inquiries because everybody looks to see what this girl did and what Coskella do. So that led to a lot of inbound inquiries. We probably had, I kept a folder with all the emails and I probably had about 500 in the first 12 months.
12:11
Oh, wow. I know. That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, but I said no to most of them. So if they weren't sort of the right, you know, if they weren't going to merchandise, well, we just said no. So I was pretty careful about where –
12:27
where I was going to show the brand. And I also knew kind of from my consulting days, I did a lot of work with exporters. And one of the projects I worked on was a research project called Born Global. So we studied all these companies and they pretty much started in Australia and went and started exporting from a very young stage. Yeah.
12:51
So that was kind of the vision I had originally. You know, I knew that we'd start in Australia and I was very careful in to manage the brand footprint because I thought this is a branding exercise. This is not a sales exercise. So everything we did had to support this very beautiful branding effort. So investing in photography, all that sort of thing, contributed to the brand development. Yes, absolutely. And you do it so well.
13:20
Thank you. Every touch point, I feel like you just do it so well. Very kind of you, but it's the bit I love actually, the brand building, which is probably why I've got more than one brand. Yes. Yes. Let's stick with where you are in the journey there. And then I'm going to come back to, we're going to circle back around to kind of, you know, modern day of what you're doing now. Yeah. I want to kind of understand like in those early years of business, you know, you've obviously...
13:49
had this exponential inbound, you know, 500 retailers who are interested, there's demand, those products are obviously selling. You want to start exporting. My two kind of questions in parallel with each other is like, what are the pivotal moments from there in those first, you know, couple of years? And when do you actually start the export thing? And like, how does that happen?
14:14
Okay, great questions. So we launched in November 2013 and the 500 inquiries came through in the next 12 months. We set up our online store early 2014. It took a little bit. Websites are complicated so that took a bit longer but we had that online presence. Thank God for Shopify now.
14:32
Yeah, I know. I know. So anyway, we set up the business and I happened to be, and we got New Zealand actually. We were exporting into New Zealand by January. Okay. So just a few months in. Wow. But I was actually on holiday, another holiday in Hong Kong.
14:51
And my son needed some clothes, so we were out at shops and I'd literally been shopping with him for 20 minutes and I came across this beautiful little retail store which had natural international brands like Neil's Yard and The Laundress and I recognised them and I thought...
15:09
this would be great for Bondowash. And I just thought, you know, just as a little, you know, a little thing on the website, you know, available in Hong Kong. And I gave the girl my card and, which was also in terms of branding, it was a very beautiful, here we go, I've got one here, show you my business card. Please do. Oh my God. Is it the same as what it was? Yeah, still the same. Yeah. Oh wow. Oh yeah, I do love that.
15:34
The branding, you know, that's sort of a touch point you talk about, but, you know, she was impressed by the business card. So she passed it on to the head office and then we launched in Hong Kong six months later. So, oh, but unbeknownst to me is it wasn't a little operation. It was a big operation. So the guy behind it is a Taiwanese guy and he had helped ESOP launch into Asia.
15:58
20 years. Okay. Wow. So he had a good pedigree for, you know, choosing brands and, um, and he, you know, we fitted within his portfolio. So it was, it was actually a lovely, and it still is a lovely relationship, you know, he's very supportive of what we're doing and yeah. And he has, so at the time he had two stores in Hong Kong and now I think he's got six or seven and he had 17 stores in Taiwan and he's,
16:23
At the time, he was growing the Chinese market as well. So we've got a presence in all those three markets, thanks to that little introduction. I love that you say, you know, it's a special relationship because, and also, you know, I'm hearing from you that you have these very long-term relationships. You have these very long-term, you know, pivotal people who have joined you in the very beginning that you've still carried on today. And I think that's such an important, like, quick conversation
16:49
thing to pause on that in business, it is all relationships. And even on social media, even in your email list, every little tiny touch point and every communication and all these tiny little actions that are happening on the internet in real life are relationship building with your community, with your partners, with your suppliers. And it's just so important to remember that. It's
17:18
One follower on your Instagram, that's a relationship too, you know, like that connection is there and you're building these long-term connections and relationships everywhere. I think that's a really, really important point, actually.
17:32
and not just with the business, but throughout my entire career, we have like a list of company values and kindness is one of them, you know, treating everybody, you know, with kindness. So even it can be hard at times as we get bigger, we get customers who are a bit more challenging. But it's still, you know, doing the right thing at every stage is kind of our philosophy. So it might cost you a little bit more in the,
18:00
short term, but you build a brand that people love and you build a company that people like working in and you build supplier relationships that have a depth to them that can help you in tough times. Yes, yes. So true. So true. The importance of relationships when you're going through a tough time.
18:21
What I wanted to ask you before we kind of, I want to shift gears into more of a marketing lens, but I wanted to ask you in those early years, you know, you've got all these amazing things happening, you know, 500 people exporting overseas, you've obviously, you know, you've
18:37
you know, got so many great things. What is the flip side of that? What are the challenges that you're facing as a small business owner at that point? You know, I imagine like everyone goes through ups and downs. I imagine there are things where you were tearing your hair out and being like, what in the heck is happening here? So I'd like to understand the challenges that you faced kind of early on, because later on, I'm going to ask you what they are now.
18:59
Yeah, okay. And how they've evolved. No, one of the things I used to get a little bit upset by things that went wrong and now I don't because I know that's just a part of running the business. And as much as we set things up to try and prevent things bursting at the seams or going wrong,
19:19
we expect it. I expect there to be challenges. And it's kind of how you deal with those challenges that determine your success. So I've always got that in the back of my mind. And I'm also aware that it's a little bit cliched, but it's the silver lining philosophy. You know, things go wrong, but you think, oh, thank goodness that happened because this wouldn't have happened if
19:42
Absolutely. And it's also quite like I think of, you know, when you're going through challenges or rough days or rough periods or rough seasons, it's still where you build your, it's the only way to build resilience. It is the only way to get stronger by getting those reps in of shitty times. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, um,
20:06
And there are always challenges, you know. There's definitely good times, but there's always something that's, you know, not quite right and you have to work on it. Do you have an example from the early years of something that went wrong that you thought, oh my God, this is it, I'm going to give up?
20:23
Yeah, yeah, I do. I've got quite a few examples, but I'll give you one. Hong Kong, Hong Kong was an interesting market because they had SARS, you know, in 2008. So even on the lifts, they'd say, and this is in 2000 and, you know, this is way before COVID, they'd have signs saying sanitised every 20 minutes.
20:44
So it's a market that has a lot of people and they sanitise a lot to try and prevent the kind of illnesses that we've just been experiencing over the last few years. So a friend of mine suggested an antibacterial hand spray because I knew the Australian oils are naturally antibacterial. I'd had some of our products tested and they met the lab test, kills 99.99% of germs.
21:09
So she suggested, why don't you do a hand sanitizer? So I thought, what a great idea. So I worked on it, took quite a while. Fantastic low alcohol, so only 10% rather than 80%, so much less drying. And Hong Kong really wanted it. They were so excited about this product that I launched it. And then I launched it in three cents, which I don't do now. Okay. So, and I put it into mass production.
21:37
And then I was on holiday again somewhere, Taiwan. No, it was work in Taiwan. And I had one with me and all of a sudden there's this plastic stuff in the packaging. And I think, oh no. And the packaging on the inside of the aluminium bottles was coming off thanks to the sort of potency of the hand spray. So I thought, oh my God, I'm going to have to recall these products. Yeah.
22:01
And this was very early on and it cost tens of thousands of dollars and was painful. And I could have kept selling them because it wasn't every product, but I sort of made the decision to reduce the risk of having customers complain about the product. And I recalled them. It builds loyalty, those moments, even though it sucks.
22:23
Yeah, that was when I sort of felt physically ill. I thought, wow, this is a big one. But it's, you know, it's to your point, you learn a lesson from it. So now we just do a lot more testing before we launch something. And we don't launch in three cents in case, you know, it's not a success or something goes wrong. So... Around that time when you were like...
22:45
you know, doing those kind of, you were obviously like scaling and things like that. What kind of, to paint the picture, what size was the business at that point? Like what units were you selling or what revenue were you doing? Oh, I can't remember actually. Maybe it was a couple of hundred thousand in the early years. So to have, you know, at least $10,000 to, you know, cost of product thrown away was quite painful.
23:11
Yeah, I bet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it's a good question because it's, you know, I will say it's hard to make a cash profit. You know, you can make a paper profit, but you're still putting lots of money into the business to get that growth. Yes, and time that is not kind of accounted for in those early years. If you're kind of, you know, a solo founder really just trying to get it to work, you're definitely not taking...
23:40
You know, some bougie salary, the consultant salary. No, no, no, absolutely right. I think I paid myself $50,000 for a long time. It's actually a really good point. I'm always interested to talk about, you know, the money piece. And when it comes to consumer brands and marketing,
23:59
you know, physical products, there is such a lot of working capital that's required. So I'd love to understand like throughout your journey, you know, you started with the $25,000. You're obviously getting a lot of POs during that early time, but like, what was the, what was the working capital and the finance piece over your journey? Like, have you raised, did you take on debt, rev-based financing, grants? Like,
24:22
What did that look like? It's a great question. And I think even, you know, the more successful your business is, the more money you're going to need. Yeah. Yeah. And you have stores now, you know. And retail stores. Exactly. So I self-funded for the first nine years. Oh, wow. I know. No debt, nothing? Yeah.
24:46
Uh, well, it was for off the mortgage. So it was my capital, um, putting into the business, um, to buy stock mostly, mostly. So the stock amount sort of tracked how much money we were putting into the business. So, and I would say it was probably a year, maybe four or five that we finally became profitable. And then, you know, sort of, it's a bit of a, you dip into profitability and back out again, depending on,
25:12
where you are and sort of the brand building and growth of the company. So, yeah, but it is, so then 2000 and, so then to get to the second business. Yes, let's get to the second business.
25:27
So that because that was part of the capital raising, if you like. So what happened? So back to 2014, 500 emails sitting on my computer that I couldn't say yes to. I thought, I wonder, I really would like to launch that second business, you know, a second business that can cater for the more mass market that's a little bit less precious as a brand.
25:50
So I started developing, you know, with our manufacturer as sort of a more affordable brand and it was done. We developed the products in 2014. And then everyone said to me, don't do it, don't do it. You'll cannibalise your existing market. So I just sat there.
26:09
I trademarked, you know, I got it already. And then it was actually during COVID when our business did quite well as an online business like a lot of Australian online businesses did. We had money in the bank and I thought I'm just going to,
26:27
do this. You know, life's a little bit too short. I've got this other brand that I'd really love to launch. So that's when Wash Wild, which is the second business started. I wanted to make the value proposition a little bit stronger. So I did some research with CSIRO. I hired them to help us make them quite potently antibacterial. So Bondi Wash is a little bit precious, a little
26:53
And Wash Wild is a little bit more pragmatic, still lovely, and still using the same concept of using Australian natives. But with CSIRO, we worked on getting a very potent blend of native oils to the product. Yeah, so it's turned out to be also a beautiful scent because it's got lots of lemon eucalyptus and lemon tea tree, so it's quite lovely, but it's more affordable. So that's... And what year did this launch in?
27:22
Oh, that was about two years ago. Two years ago. So kind of like 10 years into the journey. Yeah, 10 years into the journey. And so launching a new brand, you know, obviously different landscape, different time, lots of learnings under your belt. How do you launch a new brand and kind of what were you focused on to get that to work? Okay. Same blueprint, different blueprint? So I approach Willworth. Got it. So early, early.
27:52
Pre-launch? Pre-launch. Okay. Yeah. Like how long before, like a year are we talking? No, just a few months before launch. Okay. But I knew that if we wanted to make this a success, we needed to get into one of the big supermarket chains. Can we break down, like, what does approaching Woolworths look like? Is that an email? Is that a contact form? Is that a connect? I happen to know someone who was involved with the business, so they introduced me. So it was a connection. But having said that,
28:20
They weren't that interested. You know, we had this meeting and they were very polite, but they, you know, they said this is a really competitive space. Anyway, so what happened was we didn't hear from them for months and then the phone rang in our office and the phone never rings. And I happened to pick it up and it was the guy, the buyer from Woolworths. And he said, oh, hi, Belinda, you know, we're redoing our double base store.
28:48
And we'd really like Bondi Wash as part of the range. It would have its own stand. And you can see how precious I am about where I put the brand. And I thought, not so sure about this. You know, I wasn't sort of, oh, great, Woolworths wants Bondi Wash. I was in two minds about it. But then I thought, this is a way to get Wash Wild in. So as part of the arrangement, I said, okay, you can have Bondi Wash, but...
29:17
Can you also range wash wild? So that's how we did it. So we kind of called it the Trojan horse. So they, and I have to say they've been terrific ever since. They've been really supportive. Woolworths, I think, just recognised that the range they have in the stores needs to be better, even before the consumers are considering them. So they know, the buyers know all the toxic ingredients in the products that they're stocking.
29:48
So they're really trying to shift both from a sustainability perspective but also an ingredient perspective. They're trying to stock better products. So they've been incredibly supportive of the brand. What would you say to anyone who is listening in who is, you know, an early stage founder and might not have that kind of 10-year back history and credibility and proof points and everything for their brand, but they still have an amazing product that should be on the shelves?
30:18
to them, like what advice would you give, how would you get into a nationwide retailer like Woolworths when you're a couple of years in? Yeah, and I think that's a great question and I don't think it's impossible. I think you do need to have a little bit of credibility in terms of can you supply them because they're very complicated to supply, very complicated. We have almost full-time staff members dedicated to,
30:43
to just fulfilling all the hoops that they require. Ooh, what's an example of a hoop? Oh, okay. So we have products that have quite small barcodes. I'm trying to find one in my midst for you. But, you know, they're tiny barcodes because barcodes are ugly. And so this is for Bondi Wash. But to get a product on the shelves in Woolworths, you need to have what's called GS1 approval. So you have to pay an organisation called GS1 to get your barcode verified that it's okay for their systems.
31:13
our products are not going to meet that standard and didn't because the barcode is way, way, way too small. So does that mean like a specific line for specific packaging for that? I can't even remember what we did. Maybe we said we would put stickers on them and then now we haven't because, you know, it's just one store in Woolworths. But, you know, we've had a lot of barcode issues with Woolworths and I think we had to get them to agree to take some of the lines
31:42
This is for Bondi Wash and it's only one store, so it's not nationwide. I think nationwide you probably couldn't get away with it, but this is just Woolworths Double Bay. But that's one example. It sounds boring. GS1 is the organisation that manages your barcodes.
32:00
Got it. Good old GS1. But every single product you have to get into Woolworks has to have GS1 approval. And not just approval of the product, approval of the box that the product comes in. And it's kind of boring, but it's kind of necessary dealing with these big ones. Yeah, it's a thing that you have to deal with. Yeah.
32:19
I want to kind of circle back when we were talking about the finance piece and the money piece and kind of like launching the new brand in the 10-year kind of mark. And I want to kind of get into this like export grant that we were talking about before offline to understand, you know, did you end up raising at some point or taking on capital at some point around that time? And what kind of got you to now, basically? Yeah.
32:46
Okay. I think you've raised two points. One is, you know, how did I do the proper capital raising? And the second is government grants. Let's start with the capital raising and we can go to, we can move to grants. Okay, great. So capital raising was really hard. I think it's inherently, if there are men listening, I do apologize, but I think it's inherently much, much harder to
33:12
for females to raise capital in Australia. And also for direct-to-consumer products. It's very different. Yeah. I think the issue is men just don't get this type of business. They don't have the same interest and passion for it. They don't understand it. Were you going to VCs or were you going to private equity? I'd been approached over the years by private equity people and,
33:42
I could just see that they were trying to screw me, basically. You know, they wanted like a really, really good deal. And I think they, you know, they kind of get...
33:55
founders when they're a bit desperate for funds. It's a bit predatory. A little bit. It's terrible to say. And maybe we're not all like this, but I certainly found that they just want this incredible multiple and they're not willing to pay for the business that you've built and the opportunity that they're investing in.
34:17
So what did you do? Whose doors did you knock on? Well, it's a good question. And I did come across a VC, which I actually don't think survived, who were really interested and they were a bunch of women. So they got it.
34:33
They were women who'd built businesses like glasshouse candles and they really understood brand building and they really liked the business, but they didn't survive. So, you know, all these opportunities for capital raising just were not coming to fruition.
34:48
And it was also, I think we're not quite at 10 million. So I think 10 million seems to be, revenue seems to be a trigger point for you get a lot more interest from a broader market of investors. But we were sort of more early stage. So what ended up happening is I had this wonderful, getting back to your point about relationships, he was my first boss.
35:12
And he happened to just lose his job at one of Australia's big companies. And he was CFO. And he just helped me. He could see I needed help. And he just helped me, you know, rewrite the pitch deck. And at the same time, one of our distributors, Mike,
35:31
Asian distributor, had been wanting to invest for a long time. So he'd been setting up a fund. So I had sort of the combination of my first boss help, you know, prepare the paperwork, if you like, and help me with the process because it's actually quite a complicated process. And you need accountants and you need lawyers.
35:51
And you need the right information in the pitch deck, which I didn't have, and the right storyline. So I had that help, you know, which I actually needed to pull it all together. And then I ended up, it's actually really lovely. I have nine investors and four of them are women.
36:12
So I know, isn't that great? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and kind of, so it was the distributor. It was the distributor. It was another female run business based in Asia that he knows who wanted to invest because he was investing and they run a beautiful business. So, um, that's lovely. So we collaborate, um, as well. And then there were the Australian women are sort of,
36:38
just women I know, actually women in my sort of extended network that put in smaller amounts of money and a couple of other guys as well. So, and if it's public, how much did you raise and, or what were you trying to target to raise?
36:53
We raised about three million. So that was to help us for both businesses. And it's been a game changer. It's been a game changer, just not having to worry about, you know, managing the monthly cash flow. Yeah. Is that when you also, had you already opened the stores by that point?
37:13
I'd open two, but we're about to open a third with the access to capital. And, you know, we're going to do it, you know, because we've got money, we can do it. Congratulations. Where's it going to be? Well, I think, and it hasn't been signed or anything yet, but it'll be somewhere in the CBD.
37:31
Oh, very exciting. Yeah. Gosh, I mean, your stores are so beautiful. You step inside and you're in a new moment, which I love. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's pretty exciting, actually. So that access to capital, and it's not just capital, it's also a bit of an emotional aspect.
37:52
support, having all these people, you know, in your corner. In your corner and the brainpower, the brainpower to be able to tap someone, again, the network that you have for support who are, you know, invested in you. Yeah. Emotionally and via capital. I think having the right investors is so important. Like you touched on something a bit earlier where, you know, if you're desperate for cash, you can really take the wrong investors and it really can...
38:21
screw you in the long term. I know it's so true and I've seen quite a few stories around me where that's happened. Yeah me too. Yeah.
38:31
Let's talk about the EMDG grant. I actually have just been going through that for the first time, which is exciting. It's a great program. It's a really good program. I think they've paused it. I think they've paused it for this year. As in like I did it last year, which means that I'm about to, you know, do my first milestone report and get the first, you know, the payment that we were offered. I don't even know the terminology here. But I saw that they paused it. I don't know if they've unpaused it while they figured it out.
39:02
But for anyone who doesn't know what the EMDG grant is or you're outside of Australia, it is a government kind of led initiative to help business owners scale and export their products overseas. And you can just like fill out the paperwork or you can work with a grant specialist, which is what I did, and they will divvy up the money, whatever the, I forget what the amount was for last year, maybe like $180 million or something like that, or maybe even more.
39:29
Anyway, divvy it up between all the people who apply and then you have eight years of using this kind of through your journey. How was your experience with the EMDG grant? Like, tell us more about government support and EMDG.
39:45
Okay. Yeah, no, it's, well, that program used to be much better. I don't think I've heard that. I've heard it, you know, in the early years it was getting $300,000 and now it's getting $20,000. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, so my first sort of maybe six or so years, what the program does, it's called Export Market Development Grants
40:05
And it's designed to encourage you to spend money on marketing in overseas markets. So we have a little office in Milan. So the costs associated with that office were run through the EMDG program. All my trips overseas were run through the EMDG program and they pay 50% of the cost. So it's actually really supportive and it actually does encourage you to spend more money on export marketing. So it's actually a very effective program from a government policy perspective, but they've been messing with it and I don't think it's as good. So...
40:34
Unfortunately, I don't know what they're doing now. Yeah. There was a female founder. I think as a general rule, and I think you're bringing this up because it's important for people to be aware of all the government programs out there because there is government funding available. And it's really helped us. You know, when you're sort of urging on profitability, you know, that extra $40,000 or $60,000, whatever it might be, really helps us.
40:58
with cash flow and, you know, enabling you to afford more staff or do more export marketing. So I think it's really good to be looking for grants. And the other program that I think you should look at, and I think you would qualify for this too, is the R&D tax concession.
41:15
So that's a great program. And you kind of need help. You need an accountant or a firm that can help you with that one because it's a little bit complex. But you get, for all the research and development you do, you get a tax credit. So that's a great program as well. Yeah, it's so true. My husband has...
41:37
I mean, we were in the UK for eight years before we moved back to Australia and he had an initiative similar to that in the UK and he developed software. So he has a software company. So he has been able to I've been able to see on the sidelines how it's impacted him and his business. And it's so powerful. Yeah.
41:54
to be able to have these kind of initiatives that really do make a difference. I think the one in the UK, it was actually also a rebate of like 50% of spend. And, you know, as you can imagine in software, the initial kind of upfront costs are insane. And, you know, extremely important. I think it's interesting talking about the government because...
42:17
There are so many initiatives, but they're not marketed well. So you really do have to know and you have to be someone who checks. And I was looking just the other day on the New South Wales government website at all the different opportunities there are. And they're all very niche. You can find things for very niche industries.
42:36
But again, you've just got to know to look. And so if you don't know, you don't know. But there are so many opportunities run by the government. And we were talking offline before about, you know, this Working for Women government initiative. It's a 10-year plan to reduce the gender gap. And it focuses, I think, on five or six key different areas around
42:56
gender inequality for women. And, you know, that goes across domestic violence. It goes across the retirement gap. It goes across the pay gap. But it also goes across economic security and safety for women. And it kind of, when you go into the report, it really...
43:12
dives into how they're going to help women in business and how they're going to help small business owners in Australia. So again, it's finding these things and we try to do a really good job of, you know, putting this information on our website or in our newsletter or on our socials to educate our audience to go and see what they can also have access to. But it's
43:34
It's amazing the things that they do, but you've just got to know about it. Or you've got to have a good accountant, I think, that can also be like, hey, you might be eligible for this. Or like, this is something that I've seen that you should apply for.
43:48
I think that's right. And I don't think I've ever had an accountant that does that kind of thing. If you can find an accountant that is great, but I don't know how I heard about this, but I certainly... I think it's always on the grapevine. I heard about it through a friend. And when I mentioned it to my husband, he was like, oh my God, I'm such an idiot. I can't believe I didn't tell you that. I know about that grant and I've recommended it to so many founders, but it just, because I'm in like
44:14
digital info product space and not traditional physical product space. It hadn't like registered for him. And I've told so many people about it who didn't also know, you know, women founders who have then applied and gotten capital and it's, you know, it's incredible.
44:29
Yeah, it's great. I want to circle back to kind of like your marketing now, kind of what your focus is on. Do you really lean into retail? Do you really lean into direct-to-consumer online? And like what's working and shifting the needle for you?
44:45
It's a great question because I think it's one of the areas that's probably hardest right now because it's changed so much. From when I launched in 2013 where Instagram was just this lovely app, you know, that was not on my Facebook, that was very organic and just a great place for discovery. Yeah.
45:07
And now it's not as much. And I think the other thing that's happened is the decline of print media. So when we first launched, the magazines were still being read and purchased. And we featured in a lot of them because we were new and exciting. So that helped build our brand. But I think it's much, much harder now for businesses. It's interesting. I've just been observing because we turned 10 in the last six months and I've noticed that there's all these other brands. Happy birthday. Happy birthday.
45:33
all these other brands that turn 10 as well so I think there was just in that era of 2013 2014 there was a lot of you know startup energy because it was easy to build a business I think it's hard lower barrier to entry
45:49
Yeah. So, okay. So my marketing advice, cause I think it's challenging. The other thing that's going on is Google. Everyone's online. So the marketplace for online ads is just getting more and more expensive. Yeah. Acquisition cost is on the rise. Yeah. So every year we do a survey of our customers and we ask them how they found us. And a lot of them found us through the retail stores.
46:13
So it's a much harder way to market, but I think, you know, that retail expansion is something that we will definitely invest in so that people discover us on the street and they can experience the sense and, you know, really understand the brand. So that's where the investors help. Having the access to capital enables us to do that, to bring the brand experience to retail spaces. But the other thing I would say is that collaborations are wonderful
46:40
Ooh, tell us more. I love to talk about collaborations. Yeah. Well, what it does, it enables you, depending on which, what's, I mean, first of all, we do a couple, we do quite a lot and we have to be a little bit careful that we don't do too many. But we've done a few like All of Our Brown, which is a men's swimwear brand owned by Chanel, very luxury brand. Do they have a store near you on Gould Street? They do. Yeah, they have one opposite. Yeah, but we...
47:09
happened through our European office actually, who was in connection with their head office. So we ended up doing like a global collaboration on the swim and sport wash with All Bar Brown. So that's lovely, maybe less for marketing, but for branding. It's just a really nice, you know, brand awareness, brand raising collaboration. But we also do them with like-minded brands. So for example,
47:35
like a pet food, you know, our dog, dog wash. We give them the dog wash and they give us their lovely dog treats. Beautiful female founded company, very successful. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So and other brands that we're talking to or that we're, you know, that we've done collaborations with that have a similar, like the Beauty Chef and other female brands,
47:58
found a brand with them. So we share our audiences, I guess, and share our philosophies. And that's a really lovely way to market. So what's your philosophy around like influencer marketing, straight influencer marketing? And actually, I've got a two part question. So I'll start with that one. How do you approach influencer marketing? And does it work for you? Oh, influencer marketing. Okay. It's patchy. It's very patchy.
48:26
And sometimes you think this is a wonderful, we've done a few paid ones and we think it's a wonderful paid collaboration, but you can see the results quite quickly and clearly and it hasn't really worked. So I think if you're going to do them and we do dabble in them, and I think it is an important channel for brands. You have to be very focused and probably choose ones that you have a longer term relationship with.
48:50
as opposed to sort of zipping in and out with influencers just to raise the brand profile. I think, you know, you want people who are genuinely committed to the brand over a longer period. Yeah. That would be my advice there. Kind of in the similar sort of space as influencers, influencer marketing, just your gifting strategy in general, are you gifting at scale or are you kind of... Yeah, we do. Yeah, I was just about to say in terms of marketing, just to finish that off, our...
49:17
approach everywhere globally is to get people to experience our products so it's very different having you know seeing something on instagram of someone using our bench spray or whatever it is dishwash to actually getting them a sample so our product range includes sachets and minis so people can try the brand and that's the most powerful way to build you know build a new customer so we do a
49:42
Even all our overseas orders, we give away 5% of the order is allocated towards free product, free minis and free sachets so that they can use them to build the brand experience. Yeah, or gift it to a friend or something like that. I actually had a really good experience when I was living in the UK.
50:03
for a sampling. It was like a new brand that did kind of like toxic-free dishwasher tablets. And they did this amazing campaign. They probably even still do it. It's called Smol, S-M-O-L. And what they did was they absolutely pumped ads. It was like ads central. If you lived in London, you knew about this brand. They were like,
50:26
all over Facebook, all over TikTok, all over Instagram. And the campaign was get your free sample in the mail. So like there's just literally no hurdle, no barrier to entry. So you shipped the free, you got the free sample and then the product was just incredible. Like it was amazing. It delivered on everything that they said it would do. And then the kind of the back-end funnel started
50:51
to sign up to the subscription was so easy. It was cheaper than going to the supermarket and buying the, you know, whatever that main kind of brand is. The whole funnel was so seamless and so smooth and there was no risk up front because it was free. And in the UK as well, like they made the packaging in a certain way that it could fit in the mailbox because everyone has a mailbox in the UK.
51:12
kind of the same shape. So it was all just extremely like a letterbox drop style kind of thing. And it was just so smooth, the whole experience. And we use them for the rest of the time that we lived there. And I think it's so powerful when you can build. Yeah. Oh yeah. We signed up and you know, it was like affordable. The website experience was great. Like everything was just so designed for like a smooth customer experience. And I'm just like, that is a good
51:42
everyone can try. And then it only works if you have a great product. If you have a great product that people will buy a second time or tell a friend about, like you've absolutely won on like investing in that upfront acquisition cost because you're going to make it on the back end. Or maybe you try to break even or whatever. But theirs was free upfront. So like there was definitely like acquisition cost in terms of ads but also in terms of the products that you're giving away. So it has to work in terms of the next order. But...
52:12
Yeah, it was a great experience. And I think when you can get those kind of powerful sampling, gifting systems working for you, even if you are a really small brand and you're doing it, you know, just from home and sending it out, it's really important. Yeah, no, that's a really good suggestion. Yeah. And you've just reminded me because we have just launched Dishwasher Powder. Ooh.
52:31
With the Wash World brand. Great. Which literally launched like this week in Woolworths. Oh, my gosh. Congratulations. So, yeah, to compete with those because those, it's great that you were buying a non-toxic one, but there's a lot of nasty crap in those little, you know, tablets. Yeah, absolutely.
52:49
My other question from earlier around philosophy was, what's your philosophy when, you know, as you said, like everything changes so quickly, you've got to be really on the pulse with your channel distribution and different things that are happening. And obviously, TikTok's become such an important channel. TikTok Shop is about to launch in July. What's your philosophy for jumping on these new channels?
53:11
kind of like how are they working for you specifically around TikTok? I think it's a great question and I would call myself an early adopter with technology, not just in social media but in every sphere because I think technology can add a lot of power to your business. It's low cost. It enables you to grow in sort of a low risk way. I'm a big fan of technology and social media clearly, you know, Instagram was our friend when
53:40
So TikTok, yeah, definitely important, but it's really hard for brands, especially elevated brands to sort of bring, it's probably easier for Wash Wild than it is for Bondi Wash because we kind of care about the look and feel and we're not silly. TikTok shop's going to be great for you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, TikTok shop might be. Yeah. Because it won't be coming from you. It's coming from affiliates. Like it's coming from everyone else. It comes from the community. Okay.
54:04
Yeah, great, great. I think that'll be great, yeah. And we are seeing a lot of the shift in our audience go from Instagram to TikTok. So, yeah, we're definitely, we spend a lot of time on Instagram
54:19
the social media trends. We also, you know, our own audience is pretty important to us. So that relationship with the customer, you know, we have a really great open rate and, you know, have a good community, if you like, that we have that direct communication with. So that's pretty important because then you're not reliant on a social media platform. Mm-hmm.
54:39
Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. There's a lot of risk with the, with having one channel being your core kind of community and, and. Which is your biggest channel? Are you, is it TikTok? At the moment it's TikTok. Yeah. And we, um, we've just started focusing on TikTok US. So we're going deep into TikTok shop US and we're kind of, we've been going, it's been a multi-month journey to get my.
55:04
LLC and my EIN and, you know, all these things set up in the US is actually quite difficult. Well, not difficult, but just, you know, it just takes a lot of time and back and forth and problem solving. So we're kind of leaning into TikTok shop and that is launching in July in Australia. So we're also going to be launching kind of our Australian side of that too. And
55:27
And it's exciting because as a brand, for us, we're producing our own content and having our own presence on TikTok. And we just hired a host in the US. Her name's Melody. She is this amazing TikTok native person who is good at selling live. So she's the one who's going to be live selling on all the kind of streaming platforms.
55:52
side of things. And that's great. But as a small business, sometimes that stuff is really tricky. And so you also have with TikTok shop, the community. So if you register as like a seller and you've got your products listed on create a marketplace, you know,
56:08
good old me over here with a thousand followers can sign up to create a marketplace and start creating content for brands. And if you do that at scale with, you know, a thousand different affiliates who are creating content for you in addition to your own content, but you don't have to be doing your own content.
56:24
you know, the buzz online and that kind of collective reach that you can get from doing, you know, as many different affiliates out there as you can and having those shoppable videos is going to be so powerful and that's what we're seeing, you know, in the US. And I think that, for example, you know,
56:44
We used to, with social, really care about growth of channels. You know, it used to matter how big your channel was. But actually what TikTok Shop is doing is democratizing kind of, you know, small creators. And as long as you've got the ability to create emotive content and...
56:59
To be able to gain attention online and eyeballs online, you've won. And so you don't need to have a big channel anymore. You don't need to have thousands and thousands of followers and be this huge influencer. You just have to be able to know the formula to create viral videos because now people follow less. People just want to see the video and shop to buy.
57:20
click to buy rather um so yeah i'm really excited about tiktok shop launching in july i think it's going to be exciting to see the impact that it has on direct to consumer brands um and yeah we're excited to see what it does for us from the info product side of things it's it's not as sexy you don't have a physical product but it's still um an interesting way to like test for us as a sales channel
57:45
Yeah, yeah. We'll certainly spend some more time looking into it. Yeah, yeah, that's great, yeah. Before we get into the six quick questions, which we'll wrap up with, what is your kind of best piece of advice for an early stage business owner, bootstrapped, that is building a business at the moment? Okay, I think I wouldn't glamorise it. I think it's going to be hard work.
58:13
It's a bit of a cliche, I guess, but it's going to need a lot of your attention and energy and time and you can't underestimate how much that's going to take. So it's not a very positive message, but I think it's not all glamorous and it's hard to.
58:36
But on the flip side, I think, you know, that message that we spoke about before, the silver linings, you know, you'll hit hurdles, but there is always a lesson or something wonderful that comes out the other end from the mistakes you make or challenges you face. Yes, absolutely. Love that.
58:59
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59:23
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59:46
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