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S1E10: Jesus Is Your CEO Manual · Biblical Business Podcast

• BBP S1E10: What's it like to be married to a Disney princess? I did not anticipate that for like the first in-person episode. Because in a remote work environment, essentially you're known by your outputs. Like, are you treating them as a person and not an output? The only thing that costs you is care. Essentially, if your entire workforce becomes a view of widgets on a dashboard, then you can just start counting down because your your company's going to fail. My desire. Is to make a job seem like it's too good to be true. In order to learn something, you either have to learn a new skill or unlearn a belief. You should be wondering, is this business going the way God wants it to? The fruit of the spirit is not like none of those are revenue or profit. A lot of people do already know. They're just unwilling to move because of the implications. Success is stewardship, the CEO manual, the only CEO manual we need is the Bible. Jesus is your CEO manual. nothing figured out. How can we demonstrate washing our our employees' feet in a remote setting? I'm not sure. I have no idea. What's it like to be married to a Disney princess? Is that where you want to go? Is that where you want to start it? Listen, you hit me with what's it like to be on Oprah? I feel like it's only fair. Okay. It's only fair. I did not anticipate that for like the first in-person episode. man, it's cool. And it's one of those like what's the coolest what's w what are some of the coolest things about it? I feel like in some ways it's like a flex, you know, without like without needing to do anything right. Yeah. And like I I appreciate that. I think. A cool dynamic is that we both bet on each other. Like when she met me, I was living in a garage. Yeah. And like there was no we were only going up from here. And for her, I don't man, I don't know. She was starting pretty high too. She was a ESPN sideline reporter. wow. So doing like c college football and stuff like that. So she went slumming. She she she was yeah. And so I I was shooting high. and essentially when we were engaged, the question came about of what do you what's something that you want to do as a single woman before you get married? And kind of got her thinking. She's like, I always wanted to audition for Disney. And that was a dream of hers that she had like since like she was a little girl. Like she has like writings in her journal of like wanting to dress up and be some rella. And man, what a it was just a complete gift. And you know, the audition process is stupid. it is it is elite. Disney is a machine with that stuff. And so yeah, essentially we make a And this is Disney World. Disney Disney World. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So we're engaged. And I'm like, what's something you want to do as a single woman before we get married? 'Cause we're like two or three months out from getting married and we don't have like a good game plan of like this is what's gonna happen, this is what we're gonna do. It's like, hey, maybe do you wanna like work in news? And I don't know, that sounds tough. Could be fun. Could be fun. Could be fun. I don't know. doesn't sound exciting. It doesn't sound exciting for sure. Definitely not. Maybe it could be a flex though. Still could be a flex. Still could be a flex. Yeah, you're married to the news lady. Yeah. Yeah, sure. And so you know, she found it dude and talk about a lore a god thing. She was like booked up every single weekend except for one. Looks at the calendar, looks at Disney Auditions, and it's the one weekend that she's got free until we get married. Yep. So it's like well, let's I'll drive you. And so we head head down there and we text some buddies, hey, we're looking for a place to stay. And they're like, We know we know a guy, we can sleep on their couch, ends up, you know, having a you know, a small church plant. And we're like like we'll crash in your and like as a courtesy, we'll crash on your couch and courtesy we'll go to church, like you know, with you on Sunday. And so she wakes up, she goes, starts getting ready, puts her hair make her hair makeup All that stuff done and a Do you help with any of Nothing. Yeah, no. I have I have no doubt. Yep. I tell her that she's beautiful and that's it. And that's like that's the as far as I go. And so I I drive up in front of the audition building, drop her off, and there's a line of girls. And like I'm not talking like there's some girls or like hundreds of girls. All made up, all dressed to the all of it. Yes. All hoping And aspiring and believing that they could be a Disney princess. Many who've written in their notebooks as young girls that they one day they want to be a Disney princess. Yeah. Yes. Wow. And so you know, I I drop her off and she goes and starts doing her thing. And I'm chilling in the parking lot for a while, and I start to see some girls come out and not my wife. So she's like still in I start to see more girls come out, and I'm like kind of bored at this point. So I go to like a McDonald's. And I'm like just sitting my laptop and then I'm there for dude, nothing. I was just like, I need to sit here with like I need to go do something. French fries? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. You just went in the parking lot? I was nervous. I was probably more nervous than she was. Unbelievable. I was like, I can't even eat. Yeah. And so I was there for like two hours. And especially now that you're seeing the crowd thinning. Yes. You're like, wait a minute. Yeah. This we're getting closer. I'm like, I don't I don't know. And you also have the context of her dream. Yes. Right. So you this is in light of the dream and your future. Yeah. I'm like, are we gonna move to Orlando, Florida? Am I gonna be a Disney prince? Yeah. Yeah. And so she she you know, hours and hours go by and she finally walks out. Now I gotta flip around and tell her side, which is the way crazier side. Okay. So she walks in and essentially like you're running a five K, like you get this little like almost Audition like American Idol. Yeah, American Idol. American Idol. You get your number. Yep. And she's one of eight hundred girls that shows up that day to see if they could become a Disney princess. So what they do is they break up into groups of a hundred. And can anybody audition? Anybody? yes, for this. Okay. For this? Eight hundred. And they they just roll up. And so Disney breaks them into groups of one hundred apiece. And she's in this one group of a hundred and they put in ten lines of ten. Okay. And essentially the f one line steps up and the casting directors sit there with like a little clipboard, they'll cover their mouth and like maybe talk something. And then be like, okay, great, thank you. And you'll go to the back, and then the new line will step up. Okay. And so they do this and they're like, okay, great. Can we see 17, 38, and 64? And everyone else. 55, thank you. Yeah, right. So everyone else. Leave. Exit. Yep. Exits. And like they hang back. And at that point you're kind of in a waiting room because you're waiting for all these other girls to potentially go through. Yeah. So literally what they're doing at this point is just looking at you and being like, Do you look like a Disney princess? Yeah. And do you look like the other girls who are playing a Disney princess right now? Wow. And so right Right, because you kinda have to be able to swap out. Yes. Everybody can't it's not one Disney princess for a show. Yes. Yeah. So it's like if you go to see Cinderella at Magic Kingdom and then you go to Epcot the next day. How many princesses are there per I don't know per princess? It is it like three? Do they have five? Do they have backups on backups? They do have backups on backups. it's not as many as you would think, but it was also a little bit more than you might think in some ways. Okay. Right. So and they all have to go through that same process and they're gonna make it. Yes. Yeah. So I'm gonna say like twenty ish like Cinderellas. Yeah. At any one point. Or maybe 30-ish, because they there's some girls who could play other multiple roles. Right. Right. And so maybe you could do this if you needed to, but it's not your main thing. Crossover princess. Crossover princess. Yeah. And but then she's she's now Elsinana, and there's only three or four at of like the equity. Yep. Wow. so after they line them up in the groups of of ten, yeah. Right, then they're like they step off to the side. And they bring them all back and maybe in two or three separate groups. Okay. And then Hattie was like basically learning a dance. And they teach a dance and it's like a movement. It's like, hey, if you're in a parade, what would it look like? What would it feel like? Right. And so you're learning choreography. You're into the music. You're pretending to be a princess. this is and so this is what inherent makeup. Inherent makeup. Yes. And so, and so basically, you know, she goes and like learns to dance, she gets called up and When the song starts going, she's in it for a second, and then completely she's like just blanks. Just lose on the words. Yeah. no, no, no. On like any of the movements, on the choreography at all. And so she's like, I that's it, yeah. That's it, that's it. But I like have a smile on my face and I'm gonna look pretty and like feel good, look confident through it. And which I'm sure they were like, This was a part of actually the test. Exactly. That's going to happen. Exactly. Yeah. And so she ended up making it to the next round. She was like, Okay, God, that was you. That that was just you saying this is not a me thing. This is a you thing and that you're you've ordained this whole process. So then they come and they do, I think it's an interview after that. And it's asking questions like, Yeah, what you do right now? where do you live? Are you looking for full time, part time work? Do you have any tattoos? Is your husband waiting in the parking lot getting McDonald's? Yes, yeah, exactly. And bro, I mean, literally, I'm just sitting there sweating and it's been like five or six hours because they have to go through all these girls at some point. Yeah. And then you know, they let a few peop people go and then they ask a few to stay back. They put in wigs, they put in hair makeup. They give them a script to read and put in front of a camera. And ask them. She's like Hell Week, but in a day. In a day, dude. Yeah. In a day. That's wild. Yeah. And so and so now she's been there for how long? 2019. Wow. I know. Wow. As in a previous episode, you weren't satisfied forward. Sure. I'm not satisfied with your answer because I asked you what was some of the coolest parts about being married to a Disney princess. And you told me the origin story, which I love. Yeah. I think a lot of people are gonna appreciate that, especially Any little girls who have a desire to be a Disney princess, you know. Yep. Now a little bit behind the curtain. Yes. But outside of that, what is something maybe we wouldn't expect? Okay. the the thing that you would not expect is the friend group that comes with it. And what I mean by that is all these people are professional actors. Yeah. And a ton of them are hysterical. Like there's several of the people that she's worked with that have trained at like Second City and like I don't know what that is. they're explain to us what's in comedy schools. I see. Yeah. So they are trained comedians. A lot of time, it's like a pipeline for SNL, a lot of times. wow. and so a lot of these people are are friends. Cool. And so we, I'll give a small snippet of an example. Of we went to someone's birthday party, and they it was themed murder mystery. Okay. Everyone dresses up and everyone goes really hard. And I'm the complete outsider to this whole situation. And Because you're not because you're not in the crew or because you're not dressing up? Because I'm like, I'm not a performer. Right. And so and all these people are. And not only the performers, they're performing at such a high level. Right. Professional performers. Yes. Yeah. And so then they, you know, the murder mystery starts and they drop into it. And I I'm kind of half committing. I see. So like everyone instantly in character. Everyone. And there's no looking back. Exactly. And you're like, is is that are we doing that? Correct. And it's like not only it's it's full send. And so they're absolutely committing to this bit and like and it just becomes a hysterical thing. And I cannot hold a candle to it by any capacity, but it becomes a hysterical thing for me because I'm just trying to keep a straight face and they're Pete Davidson, you're like smiling and cracking up because Will Farrell's just like making everybody. Exactly. That's that's completely what it is. Okay. You know, I think some of the other perks, man, it's like, you know, getting To go to Disney where it feels normal, a date night. That's cool. that's really cool. Yeah. that's that is a generally date night. I love coming home around in the eight eight, nine o'clock ish, depending on the time of year. Yeah. Because it's fireworks. every single day. And I'm like, that's so cool. And where in the world can you possibly have that? And it really is just where the Disney parks. Wow. And so, man, I feel I feel so, so grateful for it. And it's been a fun season. It's weird to think it's been seven years going on eight of making magic happen, but there's also saying of like it's limited to time magic. So, you know, can't you can't be a Disney princess forever. It's true. And I think, you know, the mindset that Hattie has is like she she wants to call that shot. She doesn't want to be told that, hey, maybe you look too old to play this character. Yeah. she doesn't retire she doesn't want to retire on her stool. She wants to before before she makes a choice. She'll or before Somebody makes a choice for her. She wants to be like, okay, cool, I'm out. Bingo. Bingo. So you know, we're we're just taking it year by year and just appreciated it and trying to to soak it in, man. It's it's a cool season, it's a cool chapter. What have you learned about business from the engine that is Disney? There's a lot of things. The one that comes to mind for me is the more that you see their attention to detail, the more you begin to really respect and appreciate it. And so, you know, I love like all the senses and like the sensory opportunities that they have in the park. And so if you're moving from one section of the park to the next, you're going to hear the music start to gradually shift and to represent, hey, you're going from fantasy land to tomorrowland. Cool. And it it doesn't register. Yeah. But you subconsciously. You're experiencing it. Yes. Yeah. Not only that, but then the the pavement that you're walking changes in some capacity. So whether it's like the texture of it, whether it's like the the paint that they use and the color of it. you know, but you start to feel it underneath your feet. And then a lot of times depending on where you are, they'll even pump like scents. Yeah. Into the park. Yeah. And so you start to have an olfactory association to a specific churros. Yeah. So waffle cones. Yeah. Popcorn. So man, that attention to detail and even like kind of takes us to the other to our conversation about brand. Yeah. And probably informs some of your passion around how do we have somebody experience this brand subconsciously. Yes. And that that matters to you. Yes. Right. Because you see how it has been woven in. into their approach. totally. Yeah. Even a really good example of it is like the attention to detail that you can see that Walt put into the parks where Disney, when you walk into like Magic Kingdom, yeah, it's actually on the second floor. Right. And so the first floor is like a whole set of tunnels that the cast moves around in, that they have entire like Trash, trolley systems and stuff, yeah. Yes, yes, they have a fire department down there. Crazy have a subway down there. It's a city. It's a city. Yeah, it's an underground city, but it's like the the guests don't have that experience at all. Yeah. But it's like a functioning system underneath that completely goes unnoticed. Right. And so one of the things I've wanted to do before we get out of there, they have something called the keys to the kingdom tour. And basically you can pay to go backstage. And see a lot of the intricacies of how they actually function from an operational standpoint in the business. That's not a perk. That's not a perk. It's like a princess perk. There's some good perks to Disney, but it's and then there's some that's not. Yeah. It's like, hey, you get Disney Plus for free. Yeah. but you it's not like unlimited times that you can go to the park. Right. So they limit it. They they have their restrictions. The perk is the perk is the experience. I love it. Yeah. speaking in terms of like, you know, location. you're in the middle of nowhere. We're feeling like we're doing that up, right? Because people don't really know. Maybe, maybe people know when I jokingly say I live in the middle of the woods. Yeah. Like you probably you probably thought something about this is the first time that you've ever come here. Yeah. So you the first time you've experienced this place. Yeah. Yeah. You came to Court d'Alene, obviously, but that's as you know, different. Yes. so yeah, your your experience getting here was probably a little different than maybe coming to other studios? for sure. Yeah. And like for the first in-person experience. Yeah. I it was legwork. Legwork to get here, right? Taking a flight, Orlando, Florida, to the complete opposite side of the country. Literally. And then how long of a drive is it from the airport? Hour and twenty minutes-ish. Hour and twenty minutes. Twenty minutes And that's it's not just an hour and twenty minutes because it depends on where you come from, right? In in Southern California, growing up there, an hour and twenty minutes could be a very short distance. But an hour and twenty minutes here is a very long distance. So yes, the time might be similar, but you are traveling for quite some time because there's no traffic here and very few lights. Yeah. Yeah. Why did you pick this place? because it's in the middle of nowhere. Purposefully. Yeah. Yeah. You wanted to be in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. So when we first moved up here, we were down in in the city, down near the city. just north of the city, but you know, in a a few miles from Costco, yeah, a couple minutes from Target. We were close to everything. And then we made the choice to to move further north. Why? it was getting a little bit too peoply down there. But you're coming from L LA. Yeah, Southern California. So I just kind of like continued to like get less peoply further and further and further down the line. What was too peopley be about it? Because Cordaline is not it's not people-y. Yeah, it's interesting. It's all context, right? So when we first moved to Cordeline, it was like beginning of nineteen, twenty nineteen. And within a year and a half because of COVID, ten like ten thousand people moved there. And so it wasn't set up for that kind of infrastructure and growth. So you ended up with a lot of people. I mean, even now, it's still By anyone's measure who's been in a real metropolitan service area, it's small and sleepy. But we really wanted to create a space where we would be around a lot of peacefulness and a lot of quiet. You know, the world is very busy and very loud. And being here creates a lot of opportunity to have that peace. And then on top of that, my Jen's parents. Our in-laws were up this way. So it also made it a lot easier for us to be able to go visit with them, for the kids to go hang out with them, for us to go have dinner with them every week, whatever, right? so that was another big reason why we moved up this way. Why was it a priority for you all to have that peace and quiet? Well, we had come out of obviously a life growing up and and raising our kids, at least their first few years in Southern California, and it had just been so busy and so noisy. that we needed a season. Coming to Idaho even was a season of let's change, let's purposefully change our physical location to create the opportunity to not be so distracted. Growing up in Southern California, the the best way I can explain it to people who've never been there who think about it and they're like, wow, it's so dreamy. I want to go live there, which it's lovely. is it's like being in Vegas at a poker table. all the lighting is controlled and there's no clocks on the wall. And they do that to distort your time experience so that you sit at the table for a really long time. That's what it's like living in Southern California because it's basically they have two seasons, early summer and late summer. So you're always going. There's always something to do, there's always somewhere to go. There's always and so we did we wanted something different. And I really wanted seasons. And this was a place that had four distinct seasons that you could really experience. And so yeah, it was just important for us spiritually, I think, to have quiet. And listen, I can go to an airport and I can fly anywhere. I have access to go be busy. We have the internet, but I want to be able to walk outside and just look at trees and see the water and have like take pictures and not have cars and people and all these things going by. I don't think you just picked peace and quiet, man. you pick you pick some gravel roads in order to get here. Yeah. Like it was you're not off even off the beaten path, really. It's all context. So like when we first came here, we're like, wow, this is in the middle of nowhere. And now we're like, no, it's like just right here, and then that's right there. It's it's that you don't have your bearings because you drove here. And so your context was only basically a a a very small road and lines of trees and then getting down here and GPS not being able to tell you where you are. but I think that we used to when we were in Southern California, we used to live or we used to go do a lot of camping. And that was a big part of our inspiration too. We used to go spend a lot of time in Yellowstone and Black Hills, South Dakota. You know, we would go on these and it was amazing. And This is a place that you really have that. at a certain point we were like, why do we have a an RV? Why do we have a trailer? Because we're just going to places that are just like this. it's just a really beautiful place. I think it really is a beautiful and special place to live and we love it. And, you know, I don't think we'd ever want anything different. But, you know, God willing. When when did you move here? here or was it in Idaho? Idaho. nine beginning of nineteen. Okay. Yep. So what how have you changed from the environment? Hmm. I think that moving here a created more opportunities to spend time together as a family. and for us to have a more rich experience with God's creation, which is inspiring. Some people don't get inspired by that, but that's inspiring for our entire family. it's not that you can't do those those things, but when you do live somewhere where like you can't get Domino's pizza delivered, you make meals together and you play cards and you you just spend time together differently. And so I think that's really changed our entire family, I would say, and allowed that sort of asymmetry. I think you and I talked about it we've we talked about a lot tonight for several hours before we started this. Yeah. but you know I'm a big, I love technology, but I also love analog. And so this was a great juxtaposition or asymmetric experience. Whereas SoCal was like two of the same thing. How have how have you changed? I think you said how your family's changed. Hmm. I mean, my walk with the Lord has become stronger than it ever was in Southern California. And I don't think that's purely a location change. That's just life age, maturity, kids' ages. but I think that, you know, I feel closer to the Lord than I've ever been living here. I think that there's a lot of stuff that didn't change about me. But I think those things definitely changed. I would say my authenticity I can operate more freely. So I think if that's changed in me in the sense that when I was in Southern California, I was putting on more in the corporate environment and and just generally, it's definitely more of a people live differently. And are you saying putting on more, keeping up with the Joneses or is it I wouldn't say keeping up with the Joneses more personality wise? I would be on more. Okay, sure. Right. And go to the networking events and really have to put not have to choose to put on more to run with that crowd. Yeah. and I think living here has changed me in that I've I can just kind of I feel free to be me. Yeah. Yeah. And then I've just leaned into that more. Yeah. something I I casually mention, but like I don't think I have ever really fully comprehended until being in this space was the line of your physical your physical spaces of a representation of your mental state. And when I got here, not now because there's cables and lights and stands all over the place, but when I got here, it was Thoughtful, it was intentional, it was minimalist. but I mean everything from the candle that also has like the that flicker sound. Yes. it's really nice. Like the fireplace right here. Everything like the desk is very like tidy. Yeah. And I think back to my office, and I'm like, I've got like light stands and cameras and all the stuff and cables everywhere. Yeah. And I'm like, this feels indicative of my mental state. And also when you move around this space, it's like you've got pull-up bar treadmills, like dumbbells and such over here, like a small little kitchen, bathrooms with heated floor tiles, which is sick. And like a bit colder, it gets colder for man. I'm like, that's that's on the list of aspirations right there. And then like a guest bed, guest bathroom. Like it's it is really well thought. Really intentional. Jen, that's Jen. Yeah. Did you have any hopes or wishes or goals when when we designed this place? Yes. yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I wanted it to feel like a cigar lounge library, but with that balance of minimalism and I would say analog and digital. It's kind of like those two things. Always going together. even the picture that's on the wall over there is a is an astronaut in a f in a bunch of flowers. and so there's no better person than my wife who knows me very intimately. So she just went and then boom, this whole place was was thought of. The things that I really wanted, yeah. It was like my non negotiables was my desk because it's a it's a bowling lane from a place we used to live that I we had I had made into a big desk. A wood burning fireplace with an actual you know brick fascia. And then I wanted a bookshelf with a secret door. That was outside of that, I had no other requirements. Yeah. So then everything else you see here in the design, even in the way these things were done, was Jen's thoughtfulness and and just knowledge of how I like to operate, put out into into design. She would design the space differently if it were her office, right? But she's very, very good at like I would call it empathetic design. Where she can bring like that level, but still do it the way you want. Yeah. Yeah. So this like the this even the name of this paint color is night mission. Spot on. And it's like a green, but like just even that, right? That's that I feel like matters. Yeah. or says something, I s I should say. It's kinda like anything, the clothes you wear, all these things commute you communicate something. and back to your point. Yeah, it's like branding. Subconscious, uncorrelated things. just but back to your earlier comment. Yeah. I cleaned up before you came. Okay. Yeah. So my desk was a little bit more messy. I had a few more things out on it. I needed to straighten things. And I I actually had the same thought that you had and I have it all the time. Because I was like, there's there's stuff that's out here and that's how I feel right now. Mm-hmm. And I know I feel differently when this space is clean. Yes. And and the desk is clear. Yes. so and there's two Bibles instead of one. There is, because one is the Bible that I'm reading, you know, through for the year, and then the other one is the study Bible that I use when I'm like doing biblical business videos or if I'm writing something. Yeah. I want the study notes. I think the other thing that you would not get without being here. Yeah. Is the commute. Yeah. Because I think that's so important. I think especially in a work from home kind of environment that you have cultivated the space that's separate from your house. Yeah. But still your own. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean that's that was purely God. We didn't intend that. I think, you know, we did have separate because we have, you know, a house here on the property. That was our house, and then we created this separately on the property. So they were buildings were already gonna be separate. But now, you know, we we, you know, moved to a different place, which is whatever, five minutes away. And that does it is it makes things different. and but I would say that wasn't the original. The original plan was to have it separate but on the same property. And to have it separate but in a completely different place was that was that was God's hand. Dude, I love it. I love it because I think of my current setup is right, I take a left at the living room and then like in your home. Yeah. Like I'm I'm at my office. Yeah. And like you have to like physically get in the car and drive five minutes to the space. But then you could also easily pop back home for lunch. Yeah. Or if Jen needs something, yeah, like it's like a easy. Well, and and I mean, you know, you can look at this and be like, wow, you know, you really but Before this, it was the third car garage on the house that was converted. So I was in the third car garage converted into an office that felt similar to this but was small. So I was attached to the house kind of. And then before that, it was a house that we rented down in Court d'Alene when we first moved here because we're like, we need to get a lay of the land. I'm not gonna we you know, we didn't want to buy a place until we knew what this place was like. Yeah. And it had a separate garage. From the house that was on the same property but a separate garage. And that was the office there. So, you know, it's it's been like different experiences along the way. And then of course, before that, I've worked from home. I've, you know, worked in a in an actual office, like in downtown LA. this is like the dream experience, I would say. And so, I mean, talk me through those different seasons, right? Cause and I I want to talk keep it at the house first. Yeah. Like, what was it like? Going from a corporate setting to actually working from home. It was difficult. Especially because at the time I was, you know, in a in a corporate environment and we had young kids. So, you know, I remember Jen and I would talk about it. It's like, neither one of us wants me working from home. Because it's like, I want the kids to be able to scream and yell and play. And I'm like on a call and I'm like, mute it. Shake. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yes. and so At a certain point, you're like, this whole work from home thing sounds interesting, but no. Yeah. This isn't gonna work. So I think that transition was was difficult. And I think along the way, that was a part of what taught us that we really needed a separate space. Because the house feels held hostage, especially when you have a family, if you're right inside of it. Yeah. Right? Because you just never know. It's like that that famous video, that guy, you know, the kids come in and the wife's like trying to grab them out. It's like that. It's like I love the idea. Yes. I love the idea of the intimacy, but but where the rubber meets the road, that separation I think is actually good for everybody. And so even if you can just create like a separate space, buy a shed, do anything that you can convert to create some sort of space, I think that's good. And I think personality's big there, you know. Sometimes if you're doing the work with your spouse. It makes more sense. Yeah. and then the type of work you're doing, of course, matters too. Some people yeah can't really work remotely. They need to work in person. Yeah, totally. But I'm a you're right, I'm a hyper introvert, so I can be out here in the middle of the woods. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I I'm reminded of I can't remember the name of the poem, but it's from Billy Collins in The Trouble with Poetry. And he talks about like what a poet needs is a window. And it's like in order for him to a poet to be a poet, he needs a window to look at. that's cool. And I think of that in your space even of like what are some of the things that like for you to work, like you need a definitely a window. I mean, that's huge for me. I look out of this window and I mean we've been on calls and I'll like turn the camera around because there's a ba two baby deer and a mom. I definitely love a window. the fireplace is a big deal for me. I think for me to do my best work, I need a sense of peace. I need a sense of quiet. So I don't do well in busy environments for sustained periods of time. It zaps me. And and I think I need to be able to go in and do like very deep work in a quiet space. Yeah. Was that hard in a corporate setting? Extremely hard. It was hard, especially when I was early on, managing bank branches. You're you're right in the thick of everything, but then you have an office. So you can close the door, go in your office. and the higher you get up, the easier it becomes because you're sort of on your own. But then eventually, like even in situations, for example, when I when I was managing the LA Metro territory, you you've got like seventeen, eighteen branches and you're going and visiting them all day. So you're just out. You're out about all the time. And so I would go into the office really early, four or four thirty, and just get office work done in the morning in peace and quiet, do some deep work, then get going. but I think I also will adapt. You know, one of my coaches told me, like, your ambition overrides your introversion. So you'll just push and do whatever you need to do. So having a space where I don't have to do that is it's been, yeah, really life giving. Well, are there parts parts of corporate environment that you miss? Hmm. I think that's a really good question. No. You know, I think if I were a different person with a different personality, I think absolutely there would be a lot. I think the ability to detach yourself and sort of bring your lunchbox and clock in and clock out is a great benefit of corporate. Yeah. You know, because you're not attaching any level of your being to it. You're just getting the the work done. And I think in that sense, I've never wanted that. And so I don't miss that. But you know, being an entrepreneur, being a s being in small business, it's it's a way different experience. And there's no sort of clock in and clock out. Yeah. It's very, very intimate in that sense. And I think Sometimes people go do that and then they miss the corporate because they're like, actually that was way, I'm gonna go do that. Some people even I I've talked to entrepreneurs who were entrepreneurs for a while and they failed and they're like, I'm going to corporate. Not even like they're getting out of it and they're gonna go straight to the biggest company they can go to to just be a cog in the system. To get their paycheck and to do their thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah. I think it's all opportunities to steward what God's given you, you know? Man, I think something that's really interesting is When I think about efficiency, I feel like I'm able to accomplish far more in an in-person experience than I can remotely. But I have to counter that with I need the time for deep work. and and I'm maybe it's just from the extrovert side of things. Right. But I could see to where, hey, if you and I can just get together in a room with a whiteboard. And give us three hours, we can do a week's worth of work than if we're just trying to go back and forth via Slack or even hopping on a Zoom call of some sort. Yeah. But at the same time, what you sacrifice is the opportunity to to close your door and actually do the work. Right. And then and so you're having to kind of make up for it in other ways. So I wanted to kind of what are your pros? What are the cons when it comes to working from home versus a corporate environment? I think I think it's really difficult to work from home if you're not an introvert. I just think it is. I think it's very challenging because your your energy, you can feel like you're not a part of something. And I think that for me, it's easy to be like, yeah, this is great. And then other people are like, This is this is not good. I feel so totally disconnected because I've just seen you once. And I'm like, do we need to see each other more than once? Yeah. And so I think balancing it with in-person meetings and events is the way that I've found to bridge the gap without having to go one way or the other. whether that's quarterly in-person meetings with leaders, semi-annual with everybody or annual with everybody. I think those are ways to Get people together. And then when you do those, you don't focus those on driving efficiency, but you focus them on just spending time together. And I think people have a hard time with that in business. A lot of businesses won't want to justify coming to have people come in and go golf and go to a spa and then enjoy time together. And yeah, we'll talk a little bit about the business, but we really just want to spend time together as humans because in a remote work environment, essentially you're known by your outputs. Yeah. Whereas you could be in an office and people are like they see you in the office every day, so I guess you're you're working. In a remote environment, you might be in your at your computer every day. But if there's no outputs to prove it, then people don't know that you're working. Yeah. Do you have a system or a framework that you typically think about in person versus remote or when to do in person in what capacities? If you've been doing this for the past 14 years, I feel like you've got some sort of a concept or idea of what works and what doesn't. Every business is different. And I don't think that there's a silver bullet framework either way. I think that you need to look at your business for what it is and If you don't have some element of in-person, then you should have one. Even if it was once a year. if you're all in person, then you might be missing out on some opportunities to drive and steward better the resources by focusing on outputs. I say it depends because right, like what business are we talking about here? Right? Are we talking about a restaurant? Are we talking about a marketing agency? Are we talking about A bank, all all these things have different requirements. But I think that especially in the environment we're in now where execution is becoming more and more commoditized, the human experience just becomes that much more important. And so in a work in a remote work setting, how do you create that human connection? Especially looking at your business through a biblical business lens. I think you make investments in spending time together in person. Whether that's having people in for a meeting, we're we're having the team out this week, that it's a really important time to spend together. And it's really just to celebrate and appreciate. It's not to say, How can we get everybody to become more efficient? And so I think it's putting your money where your mouth is, especially in remote work environments. And then I think it's Adding in the human aspect of your engagement with people along the way? Like, are you checking in with people as a person? Are you, I don't know, finding out that they like something and sending them something? Are you like, are you treating them as a person and not an output? I think if you can ask yourself that question as a part of your regular cadence. And then do something about it. I think that can be really hey, it's somebody's birthday. We're gonna call ahead to the place we know they're going to dinner and we're gonna pay for the dinner. Or, you know, hey, I heard this this guy was talking about this camera that he just he sold and he really wanted to keep it, but he had to sell it because they had a new baby and he whatever and then you you buy him that and have it sent to his house. There are ways to when I say the human experience, there are ways to inject care, demonstrations of care. throughout the process and then also have a physical experience together. I think that's really important. Serving together is a great way to do that, right? From a biblical worldview, coming together, yes, we're we're worshiping through our work, but we're also able to we can come together and volunteer together and do things together. swing a hammer together, right? Help build something for somebody. Those are really great ways to get people together to say hey, it's not just about Let's all get in a room and whiteboard out the next great big thing we're working on. Yeah. With 14 going on 15 years of remote work, what doesn't work? Hmm. That's a really good question. Man, so much doesn't work. I think a really big factor in driving remote work is not. Just focusing on supervisory number outputs. Tell me more. Essentially, if your entire workforce becomes a view of widgets on a dashboard, then you can just start counting down because your company is going to fail. And people are going to quit, people are going to leave. Nobody's going to want to work there anymore because they one are being treated like a cog. And then two, the second thing that doesn't work is not. Having a motivation that's bigger than just money. If it's only money, then as a remote workforce, you feel like, why am I doing this? What's the what's the point here? are there plenty of people who go, the point is to make money? Absolutely. But from a biblical worldview, and even from a technology where we're at today, like money's gonna become a commodity as well. It's like, well, there's only so much money you need to make. And what am I doing? Why am I doing this? I wanna do something meaningful. So many people who go and make a bunch of money eventually go, Well what's the point? I want to do something meaningful with my life. And then that spins them in a new direction. Are you talking about like Ecclesiastes? I yeah, Ecclesiastes is a gr a great example. I think just generally People who've never read Ecclesiastes or understand what striving after wind might look like innately have experienced it because whatever finish line they set for themselves when they were 15 or 20 or 25 and then they hit it. I'm sorry, were you ever satisfied? No. Yeah. And when you do attain material wealth, you absolutely go, yes, but I want to do something meaningful. Tale as old as time. you can talk to anybody who's made a ton of money, and you will find all of a sudden they become a philanthropist or they become a this or that because they're trying to find real meaning more than just money. How do you think How do you think leading a team in a remote environment? Sure, you've got some in person opportunities, right? Sounds kind of what I'm picking up on is quarterly, maybe the senior leadership team gets together. Yep. Annually, semi annually. We'll have a whole team get together. Purpose of that is not to talk about business, purpose of that is just to get together. To love on each other, yeah. Yeah. And what about all the other days of the year? Yeah. That we need to be working. Yeah. Or we we don't need to be working, but we're getting to serve in that capacity. Yeah, I think it it's so easy to take everything so seriously. I think it's just having a little bit of fun along the way. You know, I I think bringing levity and joy and encouragement through the digital communication, the same way if you were texting with somebody and it was just like this dry back and forth of the stuff that you're getting done. I I think you insert that. I think don't underestimate the value of video calls. I think they can be really valuable so long as you're not getting on them to just talk about more outputs. Yeah. You know what I mean? we've we've basically talked n nothing but on video. What's that experience been like for you? Yeah, great. But I mean like have you felt how have you felt as it relates to like working in a remote environment? There's intricacies that you miss. Yeah. Right. The the subtleties. Yeah, one of the first messages you sent out to the team was about like right. You were trying to encourage people. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think that working in a remote environment becomes really hard because you have to work harder at communicating well. Yes. It's so easy to fail in communication when it comes to a work environ a remote work environment. And that becomes really hard. And so I think it's even Hey, maybe it's a couple emojis. Maybe it's like a just a thumbs up that you read this. Yeah. You don't have to respond to my DM, but just give me a little something. Mm-hmm. And because if not, then your mind makes stories up. Yeah. Right. And I like to do random phone calls, random voice notes. Yeah. Just random things that let you know that I'm thinking about you. And also it doesn't have anything to do with business stuff. Sure. I think that's also it. Costs the only thing that costs you is care. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. What do you think about, I know that you look at Elon a lot for how he thinks about system. And what do you think about the mandate that he's pulling everyone back into an in person setting? It's a free market economy. Yeah. I think that when you are engineering physical things, it's very difficult to Get all you need to get done digitally. Do you think one's more productive than the other? Working remotely versus in person? I don't. I think that I think that it depends on the business. Some businesses are going to be wildly more productive in person and some are going to be wildly more productive remote. I don't think that there's a a single answer to it. I think that you you have to have an opinion. And so there's a lot of people who have an opinion about it. And I think that opinions are great and you're gonna attract and repel. And I think the people who do that have made a decision consciously, and maybe not all of them, but most of the people who do it make a very conscious decision that they are going to bring in certain people and and other people are not going to. Right. Stephen Bartlett, Dire of the CEO, hey, we all work in this physical space. Can you do that? Like, no. Great. He knows he's gonna there's gonna be people that won't do that. And they don't want those people. Yeah. So I think I think to say that one is more productive than the other would be foolish. I think that it just depends on the business. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think of I mean, my favorite part about a remote job or remote company is the overhead. Like just to like kick out rent real quick. Yep. And not have to worry about that. Yep. I'm like, that's a that's a massive savings. yeah. What are some of the other things that like a kind of little more flying under the radar besides just the perks of being in that environment. I think people's freedom to spend their time how they want. To go drive to your dentist appointment between calls, to go visit with family. Right. There's there's a lot of really big benefits to remote work. And I think I can't even remember who said it. I think it was Dana White. He was on the Diary of a CEO podcast recently. And he said, if you think you're gonna build a successful business, remotely, you're you're out of your mind or you're wrong. And I just think that's a foolish take. He's completely wrong because in first principles, a bunch of people have built a bunch of big businesses with completely remote environments. I think his business probably doesn't work remote, and he knows that from first principles, but I think the approach is not one that needs to one be myopic. You don't have to do one or the other. But also, like, it's not permanent. You can adjust and change based on the needs of your business. Maybe when you started it was fully remote and now you're like, hey, it's time for an office because we've got these things going on. Like take the information that's coming in, put it in the feedback loop. Analyze your results and go, okay, adjustment, adjustment. I think the the key in most of life is being very adaptable. And like we were talking about this earlier, just you just gotta ship stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ship it. How much of it do you think depends on the leader? I mean it depends on the leader in that they're the ones who say what it's going to be. I mean, do you think that certain leaders would be able to lead a team better in a remote environment than others. most definitely. And I've seen that. I've seen a lot of people who wanted to lead a team remotely because they thought it would be more efficient and it probably would be, but it it wasn't with them. Because they didn't know how to manage people remotely. And so how do you manage people remotely? it's complicated. I don't think that there's a I don't think there's a real simple answer. It's like any business, you set big goals, you encourage and support people, but you guide them along the way to hitting those goals and hold accountable. and you create an environment where there are opportunities for people and that they believe in a bigger mission than just the basics of, you know, business 101. And as you do that, People decide that they want to be a a part of it. I think for me, it's almost like I don't know, my desire is to make a job seem like it's too good to be true. Mm-hmm. If I I mean, you pay really well, you give amazing benefits, you give a ton of autonomy, you do things that seem unreasonable, you give time off, you give you you give, give, give, while at the same time having the underpinnings of a high quality business that can produce profit, which means people are not just a part of this really cool business that doesn't do great things. Right. So you you lead an excellent business and you do all those other things. And I think when you put those two things together, yeah, people want to be a part of it. And then they're like, man, this seems like I mean we we've got 3,000, 5,000, 6,000 applicants from a couple of videos posted for open positions. That was we had to shut it off after a few days. And that's because when I shared what the job was, they all felt like it was too good to be true. I mean, a bunch of the comments. Yeah. This is is this even real? This isn't real. Right. And so that's a huge compliment. And I think if you can if you can do that, if you can create an environment. Where people think it's too good to be true, you've got I feel like you've got something special. You know? Yeah. And I haven't always been able to do that. So I think I've learned all through a lot of mistakes and trial and error. And I think the biggest pairing there is that everybody who wants to do that, if you would ask, like, well, why did so many people apply? It's because Our mission is to advance the gospel and we give away profits. And we have a maze an amazing work environment where you get paid, where you you have a four-day work week, where you have a ton of autonomy, where you have all the benefits. So you're combining both the benefits of a great business and a bigger mission. And a lot of times people have to choose one or the other. If they they go somewhere Where they're gonna be a part of this non profit or mission, they don't make any money and things are just terrible, or they're gonna go be part of this company that has all these amazing pay and benefits and they tell you, Yeah, well, it's gonna cost you something to get that. Mm-hmm. And so you're gonna give up all of this like meaning because really it's just about money. And if you wanna you wanna work at SpaceX or if you wanna work here, you better be ready to sacrifice everything. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I think the other thing that is so slept on. when it comes to working in a remote environment, is that you have access to the best talent in the world. And I think so often we view it through the lens of like the best talent here in the United States. Right. Right. And not like broaden the scope of what would it look like for me to work with someone who has English as a second language. Yeah, man. Instead of as a first. And I think, man, two things with what that one is the talent can be unreal. Like you can get some top notch people and not pay that that same dollar that you would have that would be demanded in an American market. while while two being able to one price, two quality. And I think those two things become like the heavy hitters yeah that are so slept on so often. And I think a lot of people just don't know how to do it. And they're they're unsure. And again it's like the ship it. Yeah. They need to just try it. Because the first time you tried that in your business, you found out. totally. Right. But before that, it was like, Well, I have a hypothesis, but I'm not sure how this is gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually surprised more companies don't hire internationally. Like I think at certain point I think AI can be able to allottimate automate a lot of these jobs. Yeah. But I think at the same time that there's just a huge opportunity to love and bless people who don't even live in the same country and especially lean help you run a very lean operation. No question. And what a what better way to continue to spread the gospel than through any means and everyone to the ends of the earth. Yes. Yeah, no, I love that. I know. My like for for Shallant, like most all of our all of our full time guys have always been overseas. And we've not necessarily just focused on hiring overseas. Yeah. But it has been we want to not exclude it. And it just has happened that the people that we want to work with Or just happen to be somewhere else in the world and they happen to cost less. Right. And that's a huge benefit. Like you didn't go searching for it. No. No. Yeah. And but we're taking into consideration for sure. Yeah. Right. It's like, do I want to pay, you know, eighty thousand dollars a year for like a top notch creative director or twenty. Yeah. And I'd much rather pay twenty. Yeah. As long as the outputs are and to me they are. And I think also, especially from a creative world. I love having a completely different cultural background because then it's like they have a a different way they see the world. And so in a different way that they have different national artists that they love, different culture, different all sorts of stuff that inspire them. Yeah. And I think that that's really it's it's an interesting one and one where I would say the the patriot in me is like, man, I want I want to give people jobs here in the States. Sure. And how do we skill people up? Mm. How do we give people opportunities here that are still in school or that are just looking for a job? I think that's a struggle too, because you want to solve like the whole world's problem and my heart breaks because I'm like I see people that say, man, I wish I could get this job as the finance associate, but I just don't have any experience. I'm like, Yeah. You know? so I I don't know. I I feel like like how do you reconcile? How do you feel about that when it comes to people being hey man, you're just shipping all of our jobs overseas. Yeah. Okay. That's a super fun question. I I have the for I'm fortunate that we hire a lot of contractors. And so what we have is a low overhead. And so we have a lot of flexibility to go up and down. And so as projects scale, then what we're able to do is add more and more headcount depending on the project, right? And so maybe it shrinks the the the profitability per project, but I would rather assume that than a con consistent overhead that I can't get rid of that I have to meet everyone. I see so you're kind of like mixing it up where maybe your fixed costs, you're where you can and where it makes sense and where the talent aligns, you're doing that. And then you're going, Great, we've got this shoot or we've got these things that we're doing, stateside obviously, all of most of it's going to be stateside. And we can just hire a bunch of contractors in in that. Totally. Yeah. So I feel like a balance of my patriotism. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Well, and it's not like, you know, Jesus wasn't American. Sure. and the the image bearers of God are all over the world. Yeah. And so I I think for me it's it's not about like, is this the quote right thing to do? It's more like a conviction thing. yeah. what's God put on your heart? And I I love what America represents in that it Essentially what it really represents is the most diverse culture anywhere. Yeah. And opportunity for people. Yeah. And so I I love the opportunity to build something here, but to your point, it brings up the remote opportunity. Yeah. Expands you your talent pool to the whole world. Totally. Yes. And as a steward of your business. Are you trying to find the best people for the best stewardship? Or are you trying to right? what what's the what's the goal here? And so I don't again, I don't think that there's a this is the right thing to do, this is the wrong thing to do. I think it's just a decision, a conviction. Totally. And I think one of my favorite things is the first guy I hired was an executive assistant for me. And he's based in Nigeria and he's Great. And as I kinda got to know him more and know more about him, realized that he leads like a the youth group for his church in Nigeria. Yeah. And like he is like in a like a what's it called? A residency program. yeah. where it's like he's like training in a pastoral way or in some sort of leadership capacity. Yeah. Like v The dude is invested in his community. He's invested in Yeah, I'm not just hiring cheap labor. This is a human being with a life and desires and experience and you're you're actually making an impact. Totally. Yeah. And from a culture standpoint, it's like he's a great fit. Right. Like he's like he's spot on. And that's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm looking for someone who wants to like give back to their community, who wants to like invest in their church and invest in those people and invest in a younger generation. Yeah. but also is excellent at what he does and works. Hard. Well, and I think that's where it's it's what's difficult is that and it this is where it's like conviction versus guilt. You know, like it's easy to feel like mm maybe guilty or feel convicted about like, am I hiring somebody for way cheaper? Yeah. Like he should be making more if he moved if he lived here. And sure. I'd pay him more if he was doing this job here. Yeah. and at the same time, man, you are just blessing this person's life. Yeah. Using not your business and not your money, but God's business and God's money. Yeah. to see lives changed. And I think that brings it all the way back to what's your business exist to do? Yeah. Yes. Just to make more money. Yeah. Because if that's the case, then yeah, keep hiring the least expensive laborers you can. Yeah. Or are you actually you could even make an argument to go the inverse and go, we want to reach the ends of the earth for the gospel to people who've never reached ends. So I'm just going to hire. People who are in impoverished c countries, train them up, skill them up, help them to change their life while teaching them about Jesus along the way. and you could also then make the same argument to say, Man, our greatest mission field is right here in our backyard because so many quote Western Christians have it so easy and aren't really following the Lord. And they need to be, you know, encouraged and shaken along the way to to follow Jesus. So I'm gonna pour into that. I think this is where it's like, open God's word. wait on him and seek biblical counsel and then but just make a decision. Yeah. And and seek him first and then man, just use the gifts that God's given you in the way that he's calling you to. Yeah, yeah. Man, you said something in that it reminded me of a a point in the conversation we were having before we even started rolling. And it was this idea, I'd kind of teed it up to where I think in order to grow In order to learn something, you either have to learn a new skill or unlearn a belief. Right. And I something that's happening in our conversations is sure. I think I've always been aware of this the the limiting beliefs I might have in regards to money. And I'm having to unlearn that. But I'm also having to do is unlearn the constructs that come with biblical business. Because hey, the how we measure the success of a biblical business. Is different from how the rest of the world measures this. And so for my entire life, I've had this is what success looks like when it comes to business. And it's like, it is revenue, it is profit. And like I think the vanity metric of like, what's your head count? And and now it's like, hey, none of that matters. Yeah. Biblical business. Yeah. None of that matters. And what matters is the positioning of your heart, if how much that you really want to just Love and care for and profess the word of God. Yeah. for in an economic way. Yeah. And it's like you're it's I'm having to break these ties that I've never even been aware of. It's the unknown unknowns for me that I am now starting to see just in the midst of our conversations. Yeah. And I I think it's one that you have to face every day, that each of us faces every day, even when you think it's not like you figure it out. I think that. The difficulty is seeing the responsibility of stewardship as planting and watering and tending to the garden as the success. And that, Nick Saban would say, the outcomes are a distraction. Don't worry about the outcomes. Focus on the process and the outcomes take care of themselves. That's a that's a biblical worldview. It's focus on the planting and the watering and then That's how you define success. Success is stewardship with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength for this thing that God's given me today. Not did it produce the outputs that we think should be produced in profit and revenue and headcount and influence and whatever the world defines it as, right? It's like heaven rejoices over one sinner. saved. So I I think that decoupling is interesting because what you end up finding out in God's, of course, perfect and infinite sign is when you focus on stewarding, following him, right? Seeking him first and then stewarding well, it produces these other things in many instances. What are the other limiting beliefs that we might have? in trying to give our businesses to Christ. I mean that first big one is that when we do, it won't be it won't generate revenue and it won't be profitable. Right? If I don't if I follow the biblical way, then that means I'm giving up this potential growth. I think that's that's number one. Number two is they and they all go together. Number two is you believe that by focusing on advancing his word and by helping people to grow in their relationship with him, that that means that you have to negate or give up the execution side of the business. It's it's it's like we have this binary thinking. And we don't have the ability to bounce between the ones and the zeros. Right? We need to be in superposition essentially. And I think we we can't see it. And so we look at it and go, man, if I give this to Jesus, quote, right, even though it's already his, but if I recognize that and I do something, then I'm going to lose, lose, lose. Essentially. It's fear, it's all fear based. And I just don't think That's rooted in any any reality. Sure, you might maybe you'll lose. I don't I don't know. but I do what I do know is that every tree that bears fruit will be pruned so that it can bear more fruit. So maybe when you're doing these things, you're actually bearing the fruit of the Lord, and then it'll be pruned to make way for more. Now, what that fruit is is Is maybe not what you think it is, right? The fruit of the spirit is not like none of those are revenue or profit. How can you tell if let's say things aren't like going the way that you want them to in the business? Yeah. How can you tell whether it is a failure on on our parts to plant and water properly versus God? Course correcting and trying to take us in a different direction. I think you have to start by realizing that you've already set your foundation on the wrong question. Okay. Which is that you're wondering why the business isn't going the way you want it to. Sure. You should be wondering, is this business going the way God wants it to? Start there, and then everything else is sort of easier to answer. You go, is this the way God wants it to go? Okay, let's look at finances. I haven't managed my books. I haven't closed them. I haven't stewarded. I haven't, you know, built up a reserve. I haven't, you know, I've missed payroll. I've paid bills late. Yeah. So is this now reask the question, is this the way that God wants this business to go? The answer is no, from a biblical perspective. Go to the next question. And everything becomes not what is this going the way I want it to go? But is this going the way God wants it to go? And the answer to that is in his word. Not in the world. Tell me more about that. I think that we We define what our business should or shouldn't be doing a most times by what the world says. if if I told you I had a really successful business and then I told you that over the last five years it went from fifteen million to eight million in revenue, you'd be like, it hasn't done that well. Because your the world's definition of success would be purely, you know, a number. Right. But if in that same business people's lives were changed, we were, people were coming to the Lord. They were deepening their relationship with the Lord. We were having Bible studies that whole time. And we were simplifying our product set actually so that we could spend less time chasing more revenue and more time with the people that were in the business because we wanted to invest in their in in discipling them. Is that success? Well, yes, by a biblical worldview. But not by the world's view. And so it doesn't mean that one doesn't go with the other. It just means that we cannot take our the litmus test of success for our business and put it through the world's lens. I I I feel like I feel like the idea of a business in a biblical business is the idea of being of the world but not in it. Yeah. And I think it's Challenging because there's a certain point where rubber meets the road. Yeah. Right. To where it's like, okay, this is a sinking ship. Or hey, maybe you know, planting and watering, I'm overwatering. Yep. Right. Or something of that kind of cut back the weeds or whatever. Yeah. At what point do you have to have the self awareness to be like, okay, maybe, you know, taking taking, I do feel like I'm Being a good steward of what the Lord has trusted me with. And so it's am I just bad at business, or is business going well, or is there a skill I need to learn? Or is there something along those lines that I have to like you also have to have the self-awareness of, or vice versa? I don't know that it's about self-awareness, per se. I think that it's about Spending time with the Lord, looking into his word, and then praying, seeking counsel, and then making a decision. I think there's sometimes where we are so busy and consumed with trying to figure it out, figure out what we think, that we don't pause and quiet our spirit to ask God what he thinks. And I think that that is like the best thing that we could do. And I know that's frustrating to people who are like, well, I asked him what he thinks and he's not answering me. Yeah. I also think that a lot of people do already know. They're just unwilling to move because of the implications. It's like it's like have you ever seen Hormozy, Alex Hormozy, where I can't remember what it was, but somebody came up and asked him a question and like sort of went in circles a little bit and he's like, what is it that you want me to say to you? Meaning, like you came here to have me tell you something so that you can justify what it is that you think. And I think a lot of times we ask questions that way versus maybe already knowing what we need to do. Does does that make sense? Yeah. It's like it's it's Anakin, right? Yeah. I know I know what I need to do. I just don't know if I can do it. And I do think those who follow the Lord, you have the Holy Spirit in you. You just do. And Book of James, you can ask for wisdom. And don't be double minded. Like, don't ask, even though the Lord's put something already on your heart. I think a lot of times I don't know that this is like a a a biblical exegesis of of how you should approach this, but I would say, If you do something, if you're thinking about something and you're like, man, I do feel I I I sense that this is what the Lord's putting in my heart. I've checked it against His Word, I've sought biblical counsel, I've waited on the Lord, and then you move, usually it comes with a lot of peace. And you're like, Yep. Thank you, God. Yeah. I think God will gently correct us, sometimes more than gently, but I think he'll he'll gently correct us, right? He disciplines Those he loves. And so I think sometimes if we do that and we're down that wrong path, we get checked. But I don't know. Like even now, right? Like we're we're doing this podcast, we're do we do a couple episodes a week. We talk a lot. I think that man and with AI and your ability to like ask chat a thousand things and replay all these things. Like you just need to go. Just go. If you've done those things, right? Yeah. Just go. And it's it's not unreasonable for you to maybe stop and just ask God what he wants. Not God, show me the way. Yeah. Right? But God, what do you want? What do you want from this? Yeah. And then just be quiet. What are the practices that the CEO of a biblical business should have in a pretty consistent routine that might not be included in a typical CEO manual? I mean literally reading the word every day. that's not that's not in a CEO manual. Spending time in the Word, getting on your face, praying, talking to God. Praying for your people. Being what might seem to others foolishly generous. being sacrificial, giving more than you take. I think you know, if I were to tell you all the CEO books and manuals that I read, you know that did not include that. No, like executive presence. Here's how you can make sure that you're no. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think The the CEO manual the only CEO manual we need is the Bible and you just need to look at the life of Jesus. What did he do? What is what is the only place where he says I do this as an example so that you might do it? He's washing the feet of his disciples. Man, go and do likewise. Okay. Like there's your manual. You know, he he's he had people around him. He had it close, right? He had Peter J. He had closeness and he had crowds. He had time in the crowd and he had time with the father. You know, this is like your your manual's the Bible. So should we go literally wash our employees' feet? I don't know. If God puts that on your heart, maybe. Some I'm I would be uncomfortable. Yeah if somebody were washing my feet. Yeah. the the the demonstration is that, you know, this is the the job that the lowliest of the low would do. Right? People's feet were exposed, they were covered in who knows what, you know, animal feces and Who knows what, right? so I think it's it's really just a per the he Jesus is the perfect picture picture of service and submission within a leadership position. And I think that is it's just a beautiful thing. And if you have been given the incredible gift and opportunity to lead anyone in any way. Jesus is your CEO, manual. And and the Bible is your entire business manual. Yeah. There's no better business book you could ever read. There's definitely no better book you could read, period, and spend your time with because it is living and active. And it's the only one that'll actually really change your life and the lives of the people around you. Yeah. Yeah, man. How can we demonstrate washing our employees' feet in a remote setting? Mmm. I'm not sure. That's a really great question. I I have no idea. I don't know either. Lord, would you would you show us? That's a beautiful. That's such a beautiful question. I want to double click into that. I think that's just such a great example. I feel like getting caught and it's very few times do I ever see you get caught in a moment where I don't know. Yeah, you just haven't seen me enough. And and in that time. You ain't got the answer, sway. And in that moment, you you just turn and take that to God. Yeah. That's new. I've not always done that. It's so easy. I mean, like Pe people people see you or they hear you talk and they think they know things about you, they think they know how you are. but we're all just learning every day how to follow the Lord. And man, I I I r I remember I think I told you about it, but listening to R. C. Sproul. Somebody asked him if he was gonna be in heaven. And he said, I hope I am. I was like, man. And then he talked about weeping and gnashing. because there right, those who are separated from God, they'll be weeping and gnashing. And he's like, there's there's two differences there. Gnashing is like, how dare you put me here, God? Right? And weeping is just like, And he said, And and if I do wake up, if I do wake up there, I pray that I'm weeping. I'll be weeping. Yeah. And I think, man, that's such humility from for me, I would say a powerhouse from a theologian and biblical scholar. And he meant every word of it. And right, we hear we see the same thing in the apostles. We see right, we we see this. So if I'm not waking up every day realizing that I'm in the way worse boat than any of them and And somebody sees or hears our conversations and thinks that somehow you figured out it's just not true. Just trying to follow the Lord every day. And He is incredibly gracious. And the prayer is simply that He would use us and use this for His glory to bring people to Him. Not, you know, to create another space where people are like, Wow, I wish I was like that. I wish I had that figured out. No thank you. Yeah. I have nothing figured out. Yeah. I think it's just really interesting because so often I think as entrepreneurs, as business owners, as CEOs, we we find ourselves in the habit of figuring it out. Yeah. Right? It's like w we are we are problem solvers. yeah. Just by nature. Yeah. And and I think so often I want to approach a problem of just be like, I don't know yet, but I'm gonna figure it out. Mm-hmm. Just because out of force of habit. And to take a moment to pause and be like, Lord, I don't know, but could you show me that? Can you help me, please? Yeah. I think just creates such a humility in the entrepreneurial journey that we almost have to unlearn as well. Yeah, I think it's I don't know that it's I okay. I'll agree with you of that it's humility, but only by defining what humility is. Because humility is not thinking less of yourself. And I know people think I'm gonna say thinking of yourself less, it's not that either. It's having a right view of yourself. So so what true humility is, is having a right view of yourself. And in this scenario it would be that He is God and I am not. And so I think in these scenarios where our default absolutely, right? Like the I told you about that book, The Way Things Work. Yeah. I'm gonna figure it out. Yeah. It's I feel like God has taught has been teaching me and has teaching me every day and every second, and any other point that he gives grace that I'm not gonna figure it out. That He's already figured it out. And that I have the crazy, crazy access to him by the blood of Jesus. When the veil was torn, it was torn from top to bottom, signifying, right? So in the Holy of Holies, you this massive curtain separating the Holy of Holies. And it's it's so thick that two horses can't pull it apart. running either way. That is torn. Okay. The veil is torn from the top down, meaning God separated it, giving us access to him. And now I can commune. That is crazy. Yeah. And I'm like, I'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I'll figure it out. Yeah. So I think in humility, quote, humility, I'm just God is In that moment, let's just say, maybe not the next moment, but in that moment, it's just like a realization of who he is and who I'm not. And man, hey God, can you help me please? And I think the more that we can see that, the more that we will do that. And I think the way that we do that is by spending more time with him. Because you if you spend more time with him, you can't help but be in awe. Yeah. it's like Moses' face glowed after spending time with God. Yeah. We can glow. And yeah, I think that's not something that's accessible or available just to you or me. It's it's for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Man, as we as we wrap it up, I think something I'd like to do is just something different and it's not we don't choose to do it intentionally but man I we didn't plan anything for this definitely I I would I love if we started at Disney princesses by we did and then got here. Yeah. I would love if you could like almost just wrap us up in prayer. I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah. Father God, man, you are God and we are not. And we're so grateful for that. Lord, I pray for your name to be made known to each with an earshot of this. I pray that if anybody is listening to this and they have not given their life to you, that they would choose right now to know that you, Jesus, you are the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through you, that we are separated from you eternally, but that by your blood you paid the debt that we couldn't pay. So that we could live in eternity with you. And I pray that anyone hearing this who hasn't done that would just surrender their life to you right now. It doesn't take anything special, Lord. The thing that is special is what you already did. I pray that for those who are already walking with you, I pray that you would just stir their spirit that you have created and shake them in the moment they're in right now. To see that they can live their life for you, to see that they have autonomy to make choices, to live for you in each moment. I pray, Lord, that each one of them would know that they are loved right where they're at, that you died for them while they were still in sin, that there's nothing that any one of us can do to deserve or earn your love. But we love you because you loved us first and you didn't love us because of anything we did. But Lord, just like a brand has value by its name, we are we are valuable because of our maker, because of who we are made by. I pray that you would move in miraculous ways. Yes, God. I pray that just one Lord, right now would be saved in eternity and we would see them. Pray that you would bless the work of our hands, Lord. Would you let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our heart be acceptable in your sight? In Jesus' mighty name we pray. Amen. Thank you, brother.